009 Ed Miller – The Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客第九期，嘉宾是特里西亚·卡德纳博士和埃利奥特·罗。

Welcome to the mindset advantage podcast episode number nine with doctor Tricia Cardner and Elliot Roe.

特里西亚，跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

So, Tricia, tell us about yourself.

大家好，我是《积极扑克》的作者，和乔纳森·利特尔合著的。我为各种扑克玩家、运动员和商界人士提供心理训练和巅峰表现指导。

Everyone, I am the author of Positive Poker with Jonathan Little, Little, and I do mental game and peak performance coaching with all types of poker clients, athletes, and business people.

我是埃利奥特·罗。

And my name's Elliot Rowe.

我是一名催眠治疗师，主要帮助扑克玩家和UFC选手。

I'm a hypnotherapist, I specialize in working with poker players and UFC fighters.

特里西亚，这周有什么心理学方面的最新动态要分享吗？

So, Tricia, what do you have in psychology news for us this week?

最近有一篇文章刚发表。

Well, know, an article just came out.

这篇文章刊登在2015年的《人格与社会心理学公报》上，讲的是自我肯定如何提升人在高压情境下的自信和表现。

It was published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 2015, and it's all about self affirmations and how they have the ability to boost confidence and performance in high stakes situations.

太棒了。

Excellent.

那这简直完美契合扑克场景。

So absolutely perfect for this for the poker scenario then.

没错。

Exactly.

简单来说，任何高压力情境下的表现，都跟我们对自己的看法以及对情境的认知密切相关。比如说，如果你最近手气差，输了一大手牌，情绪很容易低落，自信心也会跟着下滑。

So basically the long and the short of it is that performance in any sort of you know high stakes situation is closely related to what we believe about ourselves and what we think about the situation, And so let's say we're kind of maybe running bad or we've lost a big pot or something like that, we can typically be down, right, and low in our confidence.

而这些积极肯定的话语，能帮人重新找回最佳状态。

And so these affirmations can bring people back up to their peak.

没错。

Exactly.

研究具体发现，即使身处弱势地位，自我肯定也能提升人的自信和表现。他们设计了一个谈判实验，故意让一部分人占据优势，另一部分人处于劣势。

So what they found specifically was that self affirmation boosted people's confidence and performance despite the fact that they were in a low power situations because what they did is they manipulated it so that some people had the upper hand in an it was a negotiation situation specifically.

有些人有主动权，有些人没有。

Some people had the power and some people didn't.

然后他们研究了处于弱势的一方可以做些什么，比如反思自己的优点，回想自己的长处，甚至写下或思考家人这些事。

And then they looked at what could the people in the low power side of it do, and basically the self affirmation reflecting on, you know, your positive traits, reflecting on your strengths, even writing or thinking about, you know, your family.

这些做法都跟自信心和表现的提升有关。

Those were all things that were associated with a boost in confidence and performance.

是的，这正是我在催眠治疗和我提供的MP3音频里经常提到的内容。

Yeah, this is certainly something I cover a lot in the hypnotherapy sessions and with the MP3s that I offer.

只要你能让自己重新回到自信的状态，打牌时的表现就会好得多。

If you can get yourself back into that zone of confidence, you're far more likely to play effectively.

这种办法甚至真的管用。

And this sort of thing could even work.

我觉得你刚才说的，像是谈薪水这种场合，比如跟公司谈加薪。

I think you're describing negotiations there, sort of stepping into a pay negotiation perhaps with your work.

带着‘我值这个价，你们必须给我’的心态去谈，而不是心里没底、不知该怎么开口。

Going in with that mindset of I'm worth the money, you have to pay me rather than the concerned mindset of I'm not sure what to say here.

如果你带着正确的心态去谈，拿到加薪的可能性会大得多。

It's far more likely you're going to get that pay rise if you go in with the right mindset.

这也很有意思，因为只要你对自己的表现期望很低，你就真的会表现得差到符合那个低期望，而这恰恰和你想要的完全相反。

It's so interesting too because anytime you have a low expectation for your performance, you're gonna sink down to meet those low expectations and that's the exact opposite of what you want.

是的，这确实值得大家好好想想。

Yeah, it's certainly something people should be reading into.

如果你对积极肯定这类方法感兴趣，我网站上正好有几段MP3，其中有一段还可以免费下载。

And then if you are interested in you know things around the affirmations, I actually have mp3s on my website One of them you can actually download for free.

网址是 pokermindcoach.com。

That's at pokermindcoach.com.

听了之后，你就能明白积极肯定到底是什么，也能看看它能不能帮到你的牌技。

And that will give you an idea of what affirmations are and just see if it helps your game.

可以在打牌时或者开赛前听一听，看看效果如何。

Listen to it during your game or prior to the session and see how you get on.

没错。

Exactly.

太好了。

Excellent.

这周我们请到了埃德·米勒。

And this week we have Ed Miller coming on.

他是扑克界非常多产的作者。

He's a very prolific author in poker.

他会聊聊如何提升赌注级别，以及他是怎么帮助玩家从业余转向职业的。

And he's gonna be talking about moving up in stakes, about how he helps players go from being an amateur player to a professional.

他也会稍微谈一谈心态方面的问题。

And he's gonna be talking a bit about the mindset as well.

那我们现在就连线埃德。

So let's give Ed a call.

欢迎来到节目，埃德。

So welcome to the show, Ed.

能不能先跟我们的听众简单介绍一下你自己，还有你打牌的经历？

And if you could just tell our listeners about yourself and your history in the game.

当然可以。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我叫埃德·米勒。

So my name is Ed Miller.

我2001年开始玩扑克，当时只是想换个心情，放松一下工作压力。

I started playing in 2001 just as a hobby diversion from my job, sort of.

我那时候做软件开发，但工作不太顺心，与此同时，我的扑克水平也慢慢提高了，足够靠它养活自己。

But my job I was a software developer it kind of didn't work out, and at the same time I had kind of gotten good enough at poker to make a living at it.

于是我就辞了工作，专心打扑克，一打就是好几年。

So ended up leaving my job and playing poker, and I did that for several years.

我全职打牌一直到扑克热潮兴起。

I played full time until poker kinda blew up.

那会儿大概是2004年左右，正好是我全职打牌的时候，我就开始写书了。

It was right around 2004, 2000 that was right around the time I was playing full time, and I decided to start writing books.

每周打六十个小时实在有点熬不住了，但那时候我看到扑克越来越火，就想，有没有什么办法既能赚钱，又能帮别人，又不用每周坐在牌桌前六十个小时？

I got kind of burnt out on the sixty hours a week of play, but I saw poker was becoming a huge thing, and I said, well, what can I do to make a living and to help other people and so forth that doesn't involve me sitting at a table for sixty hours a week?

所以我就这么开始写书了。

And so that's how I came to writing the books.

从那以后，我就一直这么干着。

So I've been doing that pretty much ever since.

我一直在写书、做教练，当然也还会打点牌，现在的生活就是这样的。

I've been writing books and coaching the game and, you know, I'm playing some too, and that's kind of where I'm at.

明白了。

Okay.

很好。

Excellent.

你提到倦怠这个问题很有意思，因为我经常跟客户聊这个，尤其是那些追求SuperNova Elite的人。

And it's quite interesting that you mentioned the burnout there because this is something I cover quite a lot with clients, especially people going for SuperNova Elite.

他们有时候觉得，每周打几百个小时，才是成为成功玩家的唯一途径。

They sometimes think doing these huge numbers of hours in a week is is sort of the only way of being a successful player.

但倦怠真的是个普遍问题——他们可能连续两三个月，甚至半年都疯狂打牌，结果最后彻底崩溃，牌技也下滑了。

And the burnout just seems to be such a common theme where they might do two months, three months, even six months of these crazy hours, but then they're just absolutely fried and their game deteriorates.

你的职业生涯中有没有注意到这一点？你的客户里这种情况多不多？

I mean, is that something you noticed in your career, and is it something that comes up with a lot of your clients?

这毫无疑问。

There's no question about it.

我的意思是，其实有好几方面的原因。

I mean, I think I mean, there's a few things that happen.

首先，要想打得好，投入的精力真的非常大。

One is it's you know, to play well, it's very intensive.

这跟普通工作每周干四十小时不一样——你虽然在岗四十小时，但并不是每一分钟都在全速工作。

Know, it's not like working forty hours a week at a regular job where, okay, you're there for forty hours a week and you're available to do work, but you're not really working every minute of every hour while you're at work.

普通工作里有空闲时间，你会跟同事聊聊天，总有些喘息的余地。

There's downtime, you're talking to co workers, you're just there's kind of downtime.

扑克里也有空闲，但少得可怜。

And there's downtime at poker too, but there's not a lot.

如果你真想休息，那至少得明白，休息的时候你是拿不到报酬的。

Mean if you want to take downtime, at least you're not getting paid for it, I would say.

是啊，你想休息随时都能休息，但没牌打，钱也就赚不到了。

Yeah, you could take downtime whenever you want, but you're not getting hands in and you're not making your money.

打牌本身就很耗神，时间一长，真的特别累。

Obviously playing itself is very kind of mentally intensive, and so it just gets very tiring.

再加上各种情绪波动，心理上也跟着受折磨，整个人都快撑不住了。

And then when you add all the variants on top of that, which can add emotional, you know, you could be emotionally tiring, it's just very it's very trying.

我认识的玩这么长时间的人里，真没几个能坚持好几年的。

I don't know many people who play huge numbers of hours and sustain that for years.

很多人一开始都想拼命打，但后来都慢慢减下来了。

I've known many, many people who tried to play huge numbers of hours at first, and then they, you know, tailed off.

那些真能玩很多年的，我认识的，一年大概也就打一千小时左右，很少超过两千的。

And the people that I do know who have played for many years usually keep the hours, I would say, you know, around a thousand a year rather than 2,000 or more.

我还注意到，我的客户们经常因为犯错而自责，不知道你那边是不是也这样？你给学生什么建议？新手通常怪别人害了自己，

You know, also another thing that I noticed a lot with my clients and I want to see if you notice it with your clients and what advice you have, your students that is, is they will tend to beat themselves up quite a bit if they, you know, make a mistake or, I guess it depends on the level because if they are newer clients, they're mad at what other people did to them.

而水平高一点的，就会怪自己打错了牌。

And if they're more advanced, they're mad at maybe a mistake or something they did themselves.

你能跟我聊聊你对这个问题的看法吗？

Can you just give me your kinda ideas about that?

当然。

Yeah.

我主要关注的是业余玩家。

So I mean, I focus on kind of amateurs.

我带学生的时候，大部分都是业余的。

When I coach, I mostly coach amateurs.

是的。

Yeah.

他们的很多挫败感都来自外界的遭遇，或者说——嗯，他们来找我的时候，我有个比喻可以说明这一点。

And very much a lot of their frustrations are about what's been done to them or about, you know, about I mean, they come in and and this is kind of I have this analogy.

我明天要出一本新书，叫《球场》，书名就来自我多年来用的一个比喻：打扑克就像打高尔夫。

I have a new book coming out tomorrow called The Course, and the title comes from an analogy that I've used for years between playing poker and playing golf.

打高尔夫的时候，我听过一句话。

And, you know, when you play golf, there's a saying I heard.

我小时候经常看高尔夫比赛，因为我爸特别喜欢。

I used to watch a ton of golf when I was a kid because my dad loved it.

他们总说，你不是在跟其他选手比赛。

And they would say, you know, you don't play against the other players.

你不用管别人在做什么。

You don't worry about what they're doing.

不管别人状态多好，或者有人开球比你远五十码，这些都不用在意，因为这些你控制不了。

You know, somebody's on a huge roll or somebody drives the ball 50 yards further than you or whatever, you don't worry about that because that's not under your control.

你只需要专注跟球场的关系。

You just focus on your relationship with the course.

不管你周围有多少人一起打，真正跟你对上的，只有球场本身。

It's just you and the course, no matter how many other people are out there playing.

我觉得扑克也是同样的道理，人们总说你得跟对手较量，确实如此，但你没必要被他们那些表面的东西牵着走。

And I feel like poker is the same way, that people say, oh, well, you have to play against the other players, and you do, but you don't have to play against the other players all the superficial stuff that they do.

他们故意激你的时候，你完全不用跟着他们的节奏走。

You don't have to play against them when they're needling you.

你根本没必要在意这些，别人爆冷门时你也不用生气，有人每手牌都跟，一小时赢了三千块，你也不用觉得烦。

That's not what you have to You don't have to listen to that, and you don't have to get upset when they suck out, or you don't have to get annoyed when some guy who plays every hands runs up $3,000 in an hour.

你根本不用在乎对手这些表面的东西。

Like, you don't have to care about that part about your opponents.

你唯一需要关注的是，从策略上分析他们的玩法，然后制定相应的应对策略。

The only thing you have to care about with your opponents is just you have to analyze kind of them strategically, and then you have to create counter strategies.

但一旦你做好了这些，就像我说的，这就是扑克里的‘球场’。

But once you've done that, you know, and that's what I say, well, that's the course for poker.

扑克的核心，就是策略和反制的那部分。

The poker is the strategy counter strategy part of the game.

至于其他一切，比如谁状态正热、谁筹码最多、谁喝醉了、谁人品差，你都可以直接忽略。

But then everything else you can kind of tune out, like who's on a good run and who's got the huge stack and who's drunk could be in a jerk or whatever.

这些杂事，只要你能尽量屏蔽掉，别去纠结，其实业余玩家最常陷在这里出不来。

Like all that stuff, if you can focus, like tune that out as much as possible and not worry about that stuff, I mean that's what amateurs get hung up on constantly.

我总听见有人说：‘那个人每手都跟，结果刚赢了六次入场费。’

I hear, Oh, this guy, he plays every hands and he just won six buy ins.

我就想问，那又怎样？

And I'm like, So what?

这跟你一点关系都没有。

That has nothing to do with you.

这完全不相关。

That's irrelevant.

你觉得他能一直这样下去吗？

Like, do you think that's sustainable?

你觉得他真的找到了赢钱的秘诀？

Like, do you think he's found the key to this game?

你干嘛要在意这个？

Like, why do you care?

对我来说，这正是我一直在提醒新手们的地方。

So to me, that's kind of what I'm constantly telling amateurs.

明白了。

Okay.

那他们开始明白了吗？

And do they start to understand that?

当你和他们一起训练时，你能看到他们的牌风随着对游戏复杂性的理解加深而发生变化吗？

Do you see those changes in their games as you're working with them, as they start to understand the complexity of the game a little bit more?

我大部分学生听到这些后，都会说，哦，这听起来挺有道理的。

So most of my students kind of, you know, they hear that and they're like, oh, that makes sense.

那个理想状态确实挺吸引人的。

You know, that that ideal is sort of appealing.

我觉得对有些人来说，把这付诸实践要难得多。

I think putting that into practice is a lot harder for some people than others.

扑克对我来说并不自然。

Poker does not come naturally to me.

我不是那种天生适合打扑克的人。

I'm not a natural poker person.

我身上没有那些顶级玩家身上常见的性格特质。

Like, I don't have the personality traits that I see in the people who are really, you know, at the super top level.

我觉得那些顶尖玩家身上总能看到一些非常稳定的人格特质。

I think there's some fairly consistent personality traits that you see over and over with the really elite players.

而我从来就没有这些特质，所以对我来说，打扑克一直像方钉子硬塞进圆孔里。

And I don't have those personality traits, never have, so it's always been a little bit of a square peg in a round hole for me, this game.

有些业余玩家能把自己的心态分隔开，适应扑克的要求，但另一些人就做不到。

I think some of the amateur players kind of compartmentalize and and are able to adapt themselves to kind of the demands of poker and others are are not.

我其实对人格特质这方面特别感兴趣。

And I actually found that really interesting, the personality trait side.

那你观察到那些顶尖玩家身上，有哪些特质让他们脱颖而出呢？

So, what have you noticed in those elite players that that you feel separates them from the crowd?

是的。

Yeah.

有几个方面。

So there's a few things.

最重要的一点是，你可以客气地说他们热爱这个游戏，但其实更准确的说法是着迷。

So the number one thing is you could politely call it a passion for the game, but really it's an obsession.

我认识的这些顶尖玩家，尤其是他们状态最好的时候，简直对扑克着了魔。

I mean, lot of them all these elite players that I've met, I mean, they just they, especially when they're in the heyday of when they're at the top of their game, they're just obsessed with poker.

他们整天就想着聊牌局，别的什么都不谈。

They just want to talk about poker hands just all the time.

他们热衷于研究扑克理论，一门心思要把牌技推到极致。

They want to create theoreticals about poker, and they just want to push it further and further and further and further.

你要是跟他们一起吃饭，根本停不下来，满嘴都是扑克。

And to the extent that, you know, you have dinner with these guys and and they just can't stop talking about poker.

就是停不下来。

They just can't.

他们就只想聊牌，吃完了饭，立马又回去打牌。

I mean, they just want to talk about hands, and they just want to, you know and then as soon as they're done having dinner or whatever, they're back to playing.

日复一日，月复一月，年复一年，全都被扑克占满了。

And it's just consuming them day after day, month after month, year after year.

你懂的。

You know?

所以这是最重要的特质。

So that's the number one trait.

我一直对这个游戏特别感兴趣。

And I've always had a strong interest in the game.

这可是我的工作。

It's my job.

我写这方面的内容。

I write about it.

但我也有休息的时候。

But I have off time.

情况恰恰相反。

It's it's exactly the opposite.

我会全职打牌。

I would be playing full time.

那是2004年，那时候扑克特别火，我大学时的朋友都给我发邮件，说要来拉斯维加斯，想一起玩扑克。

And then it this was 2004, so poker was huge, and all my friends from college would email me, and they'd say, we're coming to Vegas, and we wanna go play poker.

我当时就说，不了。

And I was like, no.

那不是我想做的事。

That's not what I wanna do.

我整天都在干这个。

I do that all day long.

咱们能不能去个俱乐部什么的？

Can we, like, go to a club or something?

你懂的。

You know?

我不是说顶尖玩家不去俱乐部什么的，但我总觉得他们对扑克的思考和谈论永远不腻，可我完全不是这样。

And not to say that the elite players don't go to clubs or whatever, but I just see this like they just never get sick of thinking about and talking about poker, you know, in this way that that's not what was with me.

我另外注意到的一个普遍特点，就是爱赌。

And the other thing that I see really consistently is just gamble.

我的意思是，顶尖玩家身上那种对刺激和赌博的渴望，我觉得是天生的，有就是有，没有就是没有。

I mean, the elite players just have this sort of lust for action and gamble that you either have or you don't, I think.

有时候人们会说，哎呀，他们都是赌徒，最后把家底都输光了。

And sometimes people say, Oh, they're degenerates, or they end up losing their craps.

有个特别有名的扑克玩家，我就不点名了，他一直被这种赌瘾缠着。

I mean, there's a famous poker player who I won't name who has this kind of craps obsession thing hanging over him.

但我不觉得问题就出在这儿。

But I don't know that it's that.

他们就是真的、真的享受这种刺激感，我觉得你要想打到顶尖水平，非得有这种感觉不可。

It's just they really, really enjoy the action in this way that I think you kinda have to if you wanna play at the very, very top level.

但你知道吗？你这话其实正好解释了为什么会出现倦怠——你不可能一直沉迷，不可能永远保持对刺激的渴望，总有一天会滑向倦怠的那头。

But, you know, it's so interesting because what you're saying ties right back to the burnout because you can only be obsessed for so long and have that, you know, thirst for the gamble for so long before, you know, you could slide over to that side of burnout.

如果你看看我，我现在才35岁，但已经在圈子里待了十三年。

And if you look, I mean, I've now been in I'm only 35, but I've been in the game now for thirteen years.

我早就见过好几轮顶尖玩家的更替了，三回、四回，甚至五回都不止。

And I've seen the changing of the guard already, like, three, four, five times at the top of the game.

你看到一批顶尖玩家崛起，赢了很多钱，人人都知道他们的名字，风光无限，然后他们就退场了，下一拨人又接上来。

You know, you see one set of elite players comes in, and they win a bunch of money, and everyone knows their name, and they're super hotshots, and then they move on, you know, and then the next group comes in.

我认识的那些人，很多都说，其实玩个三四年就差不多厌了。

And the guys that I know who do that, a lot of them say, yeah, I just, you know, I was kinda over it after after three or four years.

对。

Yeah.

我确实注意到，一些最高注额的在线玩家，我有点怀疑，是不是反而是那些打现场游戏的人更倾向于这种赌徒心态。

I mean, I certainly noticed there was some of the the highest stakes online players is I'm wondering if that's actually more the live players who are acting that way in terms of the gamble.

我合作的很多顶级在线玩家，反而更偏向理性计算。

A lot of the guys I work with, really high stakes online, seem more math spaced.

他们根本看不上玩轮盘赌那种人，觉得那太不靠谱了。

So they're not really so, you know, they they laugh at people who play roulette, things like that.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我一直在想，这两类人之间是不是有某种交叉——那些打现场高额牌局、动辄上百万的玩家，和那些纯粹靠数据分析打在线高额牌局的人，对后者来说，去玩骰子这种负期望值的赌博，简直荒唐可笑。

So I'm wondering if there's a bit of a a crossover there, you know, the slight difference between the guys who reach the highest stakes playing the live games, the big big games perhaps in the area or what have you, versus the very statistics based person who's playing some of the highest stakes online and, you know, who to them, the gambling might look ridiculous to then go and, you know, make negative EV decision and play craps.

没错。

Right.

确实，玩大型现场牌局和在线牌局的人差别特别大。

So, yeah, I mean, for sure, there's a huge difference in who inhabits the big live games and the online games.

差距真的非常大。

I mean, there's an enormous difference.

现场牌局里头有很多人情世故。

It's there's politics in the live game.

就是会有一些说不清道不明的事儿在发生。

I mean, there's there's just stuff that goes on.

想进那些现场牌局，你得让人觉得你敢赌才行。

Well, I guess you have to show you're willing to gamble to get into some of those live games.

尤其是那些高端私人牌局。

Certainly, the big the big sort of home games.

如果你玩牌完全理性，从不冒险，人家肯定不会再请你来了，对吧？

If if you were just playing absolutely rational poker and never gambling, you wouldn't you wouldn't get an invite back, would you?

没错。

No.

你大概不会。

You probably not.

但说不定你行。

But, well, you might.

我的意思是，你也许能搞定。

I mean, you might be able to swing it.

但我还是觉得有区别，我不是说顶尖玩家不靠数学——他们确实非常依赖数学，尤其是线上玩家。

But I still think there's a difference because there's I I don't mean to imply that the top players are not math based because they absolutely are, especially the online players.

但即便如此，靠数学下注五十块还觉得爽，和靠数学下注五十块却心里不舒服，这还是不一样的。

But even that there's a difference between being math based and then sticking $50 in the middle and liking it.

靠数学下注五十块还觉得爽，和靠数学下注五十块却心里不舒服，这还是不一样的。

And being math based and sticking $50 in the middle and not liking it.

是的。

Yeah.

这挺让人遗憾的。

That's sadly.

我是第二个。

And I'm the second.

我会去做，因为我知道这是该做的事，但我不喜欢这么做。

I I will do it because I know it's what you're supposed to do, but I don't enjoy it.

不会。

No.

这确实说得通。

It certainly makes sense.

明白。

Yeah.

我记得你书里有一章提到，你最新那本书专门写了一章关于心理博弈的内容。

I I know one of the chapters in your book, you mentioned you've actually written a a chapter on the mental game in your latest book.

你能给我们讲讲其中的一些观点吗？

And if you could just talk us through some of the concepts you discussed there.

对。

Yeah.

这一章叫‘情感麻木’。

So the chapter is called Emotional Numbing.

我的看法是，通过和业余选手打交道，这本书的目标——书名叫《球场》——

And the idea is kind of that my perception, again, working with amateur players, is and the goal of the book, again, it's called The Course.

这本书的目标是帮助业余水平的玩家，无论你是刚开始达到收支平衡的1.2级，还是已经处在2.5级，都能找到通往职业水准的路径，不管你是否真想打职业，只是想达到那个水平就行。

And the goal of the book is to take somebody who's at an amateur level, and you can start either at the break even 1.2 level, or you can start where you're in the 2.5 level, a range of amateur levels, and it's to show you what you need to do to get to be a professional level player, whether you want to play as a pro or not, or just want to be as good as that.

这正是这本书想达成的目标。

That's kind of the goal of the book.

要从业余走向职业，我认为你必须克服几个常见的心理障碍。

And to take that path from amateur to professional you have to kind of conquer, in my opinion, a few kind of common bugaboos with the mental part of the game.

这一章主要讲的是如何平复比赛中那些大起大落的情绪。

So this chapter focuses on kind of smoothing out a lot of the ups and downs of the game.

我觉得比赛本身就有太多自然的起伏，不只是成绩上的。

I think the game has tons of natural ups and downs, both just in results.

比如这一周你赢了很多，下周就输得一塌糊涂。

Like you win a ton this week and then you lose a ton next week.

好事坏事都会发生，有好的经历，也有糟心的时刻。

And then just you know, good things happen and bad things happen, and you have good experiences and bad experiences.

就算赢了，有时候回家也不觉得开心；输了呢，反而觉得学到了东西，或者心里更难受。

And even when you win, sometimes you go home and you don't feel good about yourself, and you lose and you feel like you learned something or you feel something bad.

关键是，打球时会冒出各种情绪，有的跟输赢有关，有的根本无关。

Point is it's just there's a lot of emotions that come with the play, either that are tied to winning and losing and also that aren't.

依我经验，大多数人需要找到办法，让这些情绪别那么剧烈。

And from my experience, most people need to find ways to smooth that out.

你没法彻底消除它们，其实也不该消除——毕竟你是人，不是机器。

I mean, you can't get rid of it, and you don't really want to get rid of it because that's I mean, you're a human being, you're not a robot.

目标不是让你对比赛毫无感觉，但如果你任由比赛把你抛上天堂、摔进地狱，那对大多数人来说，反而会阻碍你从一个聪明的业余玩家，跨入职业水准。

The goal is not to have no emotional response to the game, but at the same time, if you allow the game to take you on the wild highs and the lowest lows that it will take you on if you let it, I think that's for most people that's kind of a hindrance to crossing that threshold from being possibly a smart and savvy amateur player to playing at a professional level.

这说的其实就是这么回事。

So that's really what it's about.

就是要留意那些容易让你情绪大起大落的时刻，学会理性看待，把它们的强度压一压。

It's about the ways to look out for for where the excessive highs and lows may come into the games and ways to kind of rationalize those and just bring them just down a notch.

我其实已经开始看课程了，里面有一段你提到，扑克本质上是一种自我提升的练习。

You know I've already started reading the course and there's a little part in there where you write and make the case that poker is basically an exercise in self improvement.

那在你看来，一个人要从不错进步到出色，最好的方法是什么？

So in your opinion what's the best way for somebody to continue that improvement and to go from good to great?

当然可以。

Sure, yeah.

我觉得吧，扑克这事儿挺特别的，表面上看是个社交游戏，对吧？

So I view this you know, poker is, it's kind of a weird thing because it's a very social game, right?

你得跟别人一起玩。

You play with other people.

但它又特别孤独，因为牌局结束之后，根本没人关心你打得怎么样。

But it's extremely solitary because at the end of the game, no one cares how you did, right?

没人想听你复盘手牌。

No one wants to listen to your hands.

你输了两把？谁在乎啊？

No one wants You lost two by Who cares?

打扑克时，除了你自己，没人会在意你经历了什么。

Nobody else cares about what happened to you when you play poker except for you.

这对很多人来说很难，所以才有八千万人不停地讲自己怎么被逆风翻盘，但其实谁都不想听。

And that is difficult for people, and hence that's why 80,000,000 people are telling bad beat stories everyone knows nobody wants to listen to.

这说的就是实际情况。

And that's kind of what's going on.

那对我来说，问题就是：既然这游戏这么孤单，该怎么让它变得有意义？怎么从中获得收获？

And so for me it's like, well, how do you make this game meaningful and how do you get something out of it if it is so solitary?

对我来说，成功就是每天都能学到点新东西。

And so to me it's like, well, you measure your success by the things that you learn every day.

所以我的目标就是，每天都要有新的收获。

And so to me the goal is to learn something new every day.

这才是打扑克的真正目标。

That's the goal with poker.

这才是真正的成功。

That's success.

成功不是看你赢了三倍买入额吗？

Success is not, Did I win three buy ins?

或者‘你赢了比赛吗？’之类的。

Or 'Did I win a tournament?' or whatever.

那不算成功，因为那很大程度上靠运气。

That's not success because that's largely random.

真正重要的是：今天你有没有学到能用在以后的东西？这就是我的理念——我希望学生带手牌回家，挑出一点来专门琢磨，这样下次再遇到类似情况，他们就知道该怎么做了。

What matters is, did I learn something that I can apply going forward today?' And so that's very much my approach, that I want students to take hands home and I want them to pick something and I want them to work on it so that they've learned something for the next time the situation comes up.

比如说，他们打了一手牌，翻牌圈出现了三张同花。

Let's say you know they played a hand and it's all one suit on the flop.

翻牌是三张黑桃，但他们不知道该怎么处理。

It's three spades on the flop and they didn't know what to do.

他们下注后，对手加注，于是他们想：天啊，他可能有同花，我这牌对同花根本没戏，可我又不能每次有人加注就直接弃牌。

Know they bet the flop and an opponent raised and they said well gee I don't know what to do because he could have a flush and I'm drawing dead against a flush but I can't just fold every time someone raises.

那我到底该怎么办？

So what do I do?

我的目标是让学生把这手牌带回去，自己慢慢琢磨。

And then I, you know, my goal is for students to take that hand home and then just work it out.

把所有可能的情况都列出来，用数学算一遍。

Just mathematically write down all the possibilities.

对手可能拿的是这些牌，全写下来，加总分析，看看局面到底怎么样。

Okay, my opponent could have these hands, just write them all out and then add them up and say, okay, well what does the situation look like?

这是个不利的局面吗？

Is it a bad situation?

我该弃牌吗？

Is it one I should fold?

还是说其实没那么糟？

Is it one that's actually not so bad?

诸如此类的情况。

You know, and so forth.

只要你认真分析过这样一局牌，下次遇到类似情况，你就不会懵了——至少在这件事上不会。

And to just kind of if you work through a hand like that, then the next time that situation comes up you'll be informed by that work that you did and you won't feel lost anymore, at least not in that one specific situation.

你知道，有时候三条连着出现，你还是会懵，但这没关系，因为下次你就会带着这手牌回去琢磨。

You know, three straight will come on board and you'll be just as lost, but that's okay because then you're going to take that hand home the next time.

所以对我来说，这就是目标。

So that's the goal to me.

我觉得这是日积月累的过程。

I view it as incremental day after day.

你的目标是每天玩牌时，都能进步一点点。

Your goal is to improve just a little bit every day that you play and interact with the game.

只要你这么做，那就是成功。

And if you do that, that's success.

只要你坚持下去，迟早会看到成效。

And if you do that long enough, you're gonna see results too.

是的，我觉得这是个特别好的思路，尤其是在谈论如何平衡游戏中的情绪时。

Yeah, I think that's a really excellent way, especially when you're talking about balancing the emotions of the game.

我做的很多工作，就是帮人把牌局看成一场长期的博弈。

A lot of the work I do is about trying to make people see it as a long term game.

你是个生意人，是个赌场，要看季度报表、年度业绩，别当那个赢了一手就飘飘然、输了一局就垂头丧气的赌徒。

You're a business, you're a casino, look at your quarterly results, your annual results, rather than be the gambler who is feeling really high after winning a single hand, and then really low of losing session.

我觉得关键在于持续学习，不断提升自己的牌技，等到年底，只要你一直在进步，成绩自然会出来——这跟那些情绪大起大落、偶尔爽一把却从没真正长进的玩家完全不同。

And I think that idea of just a continued learning process, improving yourself as a player, and then by the end of the year, those results will certainly come if you're making those improvements versus the guy who's riding that emotional gambling roller coaster, perhaps enjoying some of those sessions a little bit more, but never actually progressing as a poker player.

是的。

Yeah.

我刚开始打牌的前六个月，每一场都输。

I mean, I lost my first six months that I played.

那六个月全是输钱的月份，但我并不觉得是失败，因为那段时间我一直在进步，为后来的成功打下了基础。

I had all six months for losing months, but they weren't losses because during that entire time I was getting better and better, and it was laying the groundwork for the success I would eventually have.

所以对我来说，这才是真正重要的。

So yeah, mean to me that's what matters.

说到玩家升级别的事，你刚才那番话让我想到这一点，因为升级别通常都不是顺顺利利的，对吧？

Talk about you know when people do move up in stakes because what you just said just made me think of that because when you move up in stakes it's usually not a smooth progression, right?

你能聊聊这个吗？

So can you talk about that?

是的，绝对不是。

Yeah, definitely not.

对，通常人们升级牌局时都是抱着试一试的心态。

Yeah, so typically what happens, most people move up in stakes with sort of a shot taking process.

他们会觉得：‘今天这局五到十的牌桌看着不错。’

So they say, Well, that five-ten game looks really good today.

我平时不玩这个级别，但看着挺有希望，不如就试一次，看看会怎样。

I don't play five-ten, but it looks good, So I'm gonna try it this once and see what happens.

说实话，很多时候这样做的结果都不太理想，原因有很多。

And quite frankly, a lot of the time it doesn't work out very well for various reasons.

一个是运气不好。

One is bad luck.

另一个是氛围完全不同，尤其是从二到五升级到五到十的时候。

Two is because the culture is different, especially that move from two-five to five-ten.

低注额玩家和高注额玩家之间，其实存在着明显的文化差异。

There's kind of a big cultural gap between the people who play poker for lower stakes and the people who play for higher stakes.

并不是说高注额的玩家水平更高，而是他们跟普通人不一样。

And it's not that the higher stakes play they're better, but it's not that they're really good, it's that they're different.

他们打牌的整体方式也完全不同。

And their whole approach to the game is different.

他们对输钱没那么在意，这是最大的区别。

They're much less worried about losing is a big difference.

如果你不熟悉这种文化，刚开始打的时候肯定会很吃力，因为在低注额时管用的策略，到了高注额就不管用了，因为对手完全不一样。

And so if you're not used to that culture then you're probably going to struggle the first few times that you try it because the things that worked at 1.2 or 2.5 aren't going to work anymore because your opponents are different.

我觉得提升注额的过程其实都一样。

I mean the way I would say moving up is the same process.

你得先问自己，我到底想达到什么目标？

So you say, well what do I want to accomplish?

我为什么要提升注额？

Why am I moving up?

很多人一看到就说，哎，这桌牌局看着真肥。

A lot of people say, oh, that game looks really juicy.

那挺好，现在确实是做这件事的好时机。

Well, that's great and that's a fine time to do it.

但照这么推下去，你就会觉得我赢是理所当然的。

But then the logical consequence of that is, so therefore I should win.

这其实就是逻辑上的推论。

That's sort of the logical consequence.

但你不该有这样的期待。

And that shouldn't be the expectation.

你的目标应该是先适应这个新水平。

The expectation should be, I want to get comfortable at this new level.

尽量多了解这个层级和以前有什么不同，同时别输太多钱。

I want to learn as much about what's different at this level as possible without losing too much money.

控制亏损，最大化在新层级上的学习效果，尽量减少在这个级别上犯错的可能性。

Kind of limit the losses, maximize the amount of learning that you're doing at the new level, and kind of minimize the potential errors you could be making at the level.

这不等于你要玩得特别怂，但差不多就得这么玩。

Which doesn't mean play like a total nit, but it kind of means play like a nit.

或者小额买入，随便怎么着吧。

Or buy in short or whatever.

一步一步来就行。

And just of baby step it.

对我来说，升到新级别最难的地方，就是慢慢适应，真正感受到自己懂了这个级别的玩法。

Because to me the biggest thing to conquer about moving up to a new level is kind of settling in and getting comfortable where you feel like you understand the dynamics of the game.

我觉得升级别时特别关键的一点，是要确保自己的资金足够支撑下一个级别。

I think something really key there, I think, in the moving up is also making sure that you're properly rolled for the next level.

我常听到有人谈冒险上桌，就说‘牌桌看着不错，我就上了’。

I hear a lot of guys talking about shot taking and they're like, oh the table looked good so I took a shot.

结果一算，那一局就用了他们总资金的百分之十甚至二十。

And it turns out that it was 10% of their bankroll or 20% of their bankroll in an individual game.

这样一来，打牌的时候自然紧张得要命。

And then obviously when they play, they're very very stressed out.

在这种压力下，他们的牌技就全垮了。

They play terrible poker in that game.

他们输光了钱，却还惊讶于自己那所谓的‘一搏’怎么就没成功。

They lose their money, and then they're surprised that their their shot taken, inverted commas, didn't work out.

我觉得很多玩家都该明白，如果你的资金根本撑不起这个级别，那这根本就是赌博，而且一定会严重影响你在牌桌上的发挥。

And I think it's important for a lot of players to realize that if you're not rolled for it, it it really is gambling, and it will impact the way that you play at the table.

你提到的这种小额买入，其实更像是一堂昂贵的学费。

I think what you're describing in terms of buying in shorts, seeing it as perhaps an an expensive coaching lesson.

这并不是在一步步提升牌技、慢慢积累经验的过程。

It's not something they're improving their poker and then you know gradually building themselves out.

但我觉得， guys 在冲进一个看起来很软的牌局之前，一定要先准备好足够的资金。

But I think it's very important that guys have that bankroll in place before they just jump into a game because it looks soft that day.

没错。

Right.

这正是我想说的，他们总觉得这桌油水足，赢钱是板上钉钉的事。

Because that's what I was saying, like, you know, where the their expectation is, well, it's juicy, so therefore, I'm gonna win.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

确实如此。

Right.

他们总觉得，‘我就拿20%的赌本玩一把，这局肯定稳赢’之类的。

They have this, you know, yeah, I'll gamble 20% of my bankroll because I I can't lose in this game or something.

我也说不准。

I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

你说得一点都没错。

You're exactly right.

你明白吧？

You know?

还有一点，这种现象背后其实有种文化氛围，因为我了解很多扑克界的成功人士，他们在接受采访时总会说，你是怎么一步步走到今天的？

And the other thing is there's there's a culture of this because I know a lot of the success stories in poker, like when they do interviews and they say, well, how did you make your way up?

他们的答案通常都离不开一次大胆的押注最终赢了。

And it involves a big shot that paid off.

这种故事实在太常见了。

This is a super common story.

我以前就玩五块钱的锦标赛，后来侥幸赢了个卫星赛，拿到了参加两百一十五美元赛事的资格，那可是远远超出了我的资金承受范围。

Well, I was playing $5 tournaments, but then I won a satellite to get into the $215 tournament, and that was way above my bankroll.

但我还是去打了，你猜怎么着？

But I played it anyway, and guess what?

我赢了。

I won.

现在我的资金已经积累到七十万美元了。

So now I've got a $700,000 bankroll.

这种故事，我听得太多了。

I mean, I mean, I've heard that story.

我不记得听过多少次了。

I don't know how many times.

当然，这种事确实会发生，但并不是常态。

And, of course, that happens, but that is not the rule.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我

I think I

关键在于，你是怎么稳住的？

think the great thing there is it's how did you stay there?

因为别人都冒险试过，结果失败了。

It's because other people took those shots and failed.

没错。

Right.

那你又是怎么在新水平上坚持下来的？

So, you know, how did you stay at the new level?

因为大多数时候根本行不通，我还收了他们的钱。

It's because most of the time, it doesn't work, and I take their money.

是的。

Yeah.

你听不到那种故事，比如我参加了200美元的锦标赛。

You don't hear the story about the I played the $200 tournament.

那远远超出了我的预算，结果也没能进账。

That was way beyond my bankroll, and I didn't cash.

然后我就去打5美元的小额比赛了。

And then I was, like, $5 tournaments.

那时候我感觉自己像个冤大头。

And, you know, and I kinda felt like a chump.

没人讲这种故事，但其实这种经历对再厉害的玩家也常见得多。

Like, you don't hear that story, but that story obviously is much more common, even for really good players.

我的意思是，这种事跟技术几乎没关系，你知道的。

I mean, it has nothing to do or almost nothing to do with skill, you know, that particular story.