014 Terrence Chan – The Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客，我是德鲁博士。

Welcome to the Mindset Advantage podcast with Doctor.

今天是特蕾莎·加德纳和埃利奥特·罗，第14期。

Tricia Gardner and Elliot Rowe, episode 14.

特蕾莎，这周你给我们准备了什么内容？

So Tricia, what have you got for us this week?

我想聊聊扑克玩家理想的下午小食。

Well, I wanted to talk about the ideal afternoon snack for poker players.

你知道吗？其实有一种好吃的食物能提升专注力。

And did you know there's actually a tasty food that helps to boost attention?

快说说，详细讲讲。

Tell me more, tell me more.

研究发现，黑巧克力确实能提高注意力。

Actually studies have found that dark chocolate can increase attention.

太棒了。

Excellent.

上次我们还推荐核桃，这回直接升级到巧克力了。

So last time we were recommending walnuts and we've moved up to chocolate now.

这进步可不小。

There's a big step forward.

确实进步不小。

A big step forward.

不过我得提醒你，有几个关键点要注意。

But let me tell you there's a couple of key factors.

必须是黑巧克力，而且可可含量至少要达到百分之六十。

It has to be dark chocolate and it has to be at least 60% cacao chocolate.

如果你去超市随手拿个士力架之类的东西，那可没用。

So if you go to the store and you're just like going to get a snicker bar or something like that, that's not going to work.

得选那种品质好的黑巧克力，才能提升注意力和专注力。

It has to be you know a good quality dark chocolate and it can increase attention and focus.

我觉得下午吃特别合适，因为很多人下午都会犯困，提不起精神。

And I thought this would be great in the afternoon because you know a lot of times in the afternoon you get that little bit of a slump.

但这件事还有另一面。

But there is another side to it.

巧克力是一种兴奋剂，能刺激大脑，但也可能升高血压。

Chocolate being a stimulant it activates the brain but it could also increase blood pressure.

所以如果你有血压方面的问题，一定要注意这一点。

So I do want people to be aware of that if they have any blood pressure issues at all.

这种情况最好还是跟医生聊聊。

That would be something you know just to maybe speak with your physician.

你也可以考虑在吃黑巧克力的时候搭配一杯绿茶。

And you might consider also having some green tea with your dark chocolate.

原因在于绿茶里含有一种物质，我觉得念作‘L-茶氨酸’。

And the reason why is because there's a substance in green tea and I believe you pronounce it L theanine.

我不太确定发音对不对，但它确实有助于降低血压，还能促进大脑产生阿尔法波，让人平静放松。

I'm not sure how you pronounce that, but it actually can help lower blood pressure and it helps produce those alpha waves in the brain which are very calm and peaceful.

非常好。

Excellent.

所以，下午提神的话，黑巧克力配绿茶真是绝配。

So we have the perfect combination of dark chocolate and green tea for your afternoon grind.

没错。

That's right.

我估计到时候全世界的球迷看世界大赛时，手里都拿着黑巧克力和绿茶。

And so I expect to see everybody out at the World Series with their dark chocolate and their green tea.

顺便点杯绿茶。

Ordering their green teas.

完美。

Perfect.

今天节目里，我们请来了陈德伦。

And then today on the show, we've got Terrence Chan coming on.

他是个资深扑克玩家。

He's a long time poker player.

他在Two Plus Two扑克课程授课，同时也是一名综合格斗选手。

He's on the two plus two poker class, And he's also an MMA fighter.

从很多方面来说，他真是我们节目的理想嘉宾。

So he's the perfect guest for us in a lot of ways.

他今天来和我们聊聊。

And he's coming on today to talk to us.

那我们赶紧给他打个电话吧。

So let's give him a call.

嗨，特伦斯。

So hi, Terrence.

感谢你来参加我们的节目。

Thanks for coming on the show.

能不能先向我们的听众简单介绍一下你自己？

If you could just introduce yourself to our listeners.

当然可以。

Yeah, absolutely.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我叫陈德伦。

My name's Terrence Chan.

我出生并成长于加拿大温哥华，大概十七八岁的时候开始打扑克。

I was born and raised in Vancouver, Canada, and I started playing poker probably around 17 or 18 years old.

我偶然走进了一家赌场。

I kind of wandered into a casino.

那时候还没有在线扑克。

There was no online poker then.

我只是对它产生了兴趣，读了所有相关的书。

I just took an interest to it in the liking, read all the books.

我曾在扑克之星工作了几年，之后决定全职打扑克为生。

I went to work for pokerstars for a couple years, and then I decided to play poker full time for a living.

我这样打了大约十年到十二年，期间还开始练武术，比如巴西柔术和泰拳，觉得综合格斗挺有意思，就想试试看。

And I did that for about ten years or twelve years, and along the way, I took up martial arts, you know, I took up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai, and decided I wanted to get into MMA a little bit because that was a lot of fun.

打扑克之余练这些，正好相得益彰。

Was a good compliment to playing poker.

所以，我打MMA差不多快四年了，我想是这样。

So I've been competing in MMA for almost four years now, I guess.

我下一场拳赛定在本月30号，也就是五月三十号。

I've got my next fight coming up at the end of this month, May 30.

所以我既是扑克玩家，也是综合格斗选手，我知道你们节目也采访过不少这样的人。

So, yeah, I'm poker player and a mixed martial artist, and I understand that you talk to a few of both on your show.

是的。

Yeah.

你正好是两者之间的完美结合。

You're you're the perfect in betweener.

我尽力了。

I try.

至少跟你们节目的嘉宾比起来，我在哪一项上都算不上特别出色。

It just means I'm not really that good at either of them, at least compared to your guests.

但你对我们节目来说是最合适的。

But you're the best for our show.

所以不算。

So no.

是的。

Yes.

总归是有点儿门道。

It's something.

你找到了自己的定位。

You found your niche.

这是我们做的广播节目。

It's it's our radio show.

听到这话我很高兴。

I'm glad to hear it.

我觉得你有点儿谦虚了，我以前听人说过，你至少一度是世界上最强的单挑限注德州扑克选手。

Well now I think you're selling yourself a little bit short because I've heard people refer to you as at least at one time, the best heads up limit hold'em specialist in the world.

是啊，要说谁绝对是最顶尖的，这事儿确实很难说清楚。

Yeah, I mean it's always hard to know exactly who was precisely the best.

但你知道，我当时确实是在最高注额的桌面上打，200、400、500、1000的级别，我都玩得不错。

But you know, was certainly at the highest limits and then I was very successful at 200, 400, 500, a thousand.

大概是在2006到2009年那段时间，那种级别的牌局。

Those kind of levels around, you know, 2,006 to 2,009.

后来那些牌局慢慢变少了，想靠它们赚钱就越来越难了。

Those games started drying up a little bit, and it was hard to make a living at those games.

不过说实话，我那会儿确实赚得不错，成绩也很亮眼。

But, yeah, I did well, and I was successful.

我主要打的是高额单挑德州扑克。

I had high limit heads up hold'em.

我在限注德州扑克锦标赛里也表现得挺出色。

I was successful in in limit hold'em tournaments.

说白了，我就是碰巧赶上了，倒不是说连续几年手气好，而是运气好遇到了对的人，有了能一起交流、一起钻研这个游戏的圈子。

It was just a game that that just I I got lucky at, I suppose, not you know, not in terms of getting lucky for a number of years, but getting lucky in meeting the right people and having that social peer group to speak with and just learn more about that game.

一旦你找到了一个能稳定赢钱的牌局，每个人的情况都不太一样。

And once you find a game that you tend to make money at, some people are different.

有些人会选择多元化，去玩其他类型的游戏，这很明智。

Some people, they end up diversifying and going into other games, which is smart.

但另一些人只想尽快赚到尽可能多的钱，而我走的，大概就是这条路。

But other people just sort of try to get as much money as they can in the immediate and that's I guess was my path.

你的朋友圈到底哪里这么重要？你觉得这对你怎么能成为顶尖玩家起到了什么关键作用？

What was it that was so important about your peer group and how do you think that really impacted your ability to go on and become one of the best?

当然。

Sure.

我身边都是些特别聪明的牌手。

I was around a lot of really smart players.

比如比尔·陈、马特·霍夫里连科、贾里德·安肯曼。

Bill Chan, Matt Hovrilenko, Jared Ankenman.

我经常能跟他们讨论各种扑克思路，受益匪浅。

A lot of people really that I was able to bounce poker ideas off of on a regular basis.

我们聊手牌，聊牌局分布，聊整体策略，所有这些方面，大家互相推动，水平都提升了，现在回头看，其实挺自然的。

So we would talk about hands, we would talk about you know, distributions and global strategies and all of these sorts of things and we just, we all made each other better because we were able to do that and now it seems fairly obvious.

现在这事儿挺常见的，但那时候可没几个人会这么讨论。

I think it's very common place but back then it was much less common to discuss these.

扑克以前基本上是个单打独斗的活儿，直到2000年代中期以后，才慢慢有人开始交流，除了网上几个论坛之类的东西。

Poker was very solitary craft sort of up until maybe the mid to late two thousand's other than maybe a few internet message forms and things of that nature.

那时候真没几个人会认真研究扑克、深入分析，所以我们起步的时候其实占了点便宜。

But you know, it was rare that people actually did a lot of research and a lot of insights onto poker in those days and so we we kind of had that advantage starting out.

是的。

Yeah.

你可是无限注德州扑克的专家，现在有些科学家说他们已经破解了这个游戏，你怎么看？

And with it being, you know, you're the limit hold'em expert, what do you think about the scientists coming out saying that they've beaten that game now?

你觉得这说法靠谱吗？

Do you think that's accurate?

还是说，这纯粹是他们为了宣传造势？

Or is that something that you think is, you know, is good advertising from their front?

至于那个解决方案，说实话，我并不太了解。

Well, in terms of of the solution, I can't say I'm I'm really knowledgeable.

我不能确定他们到底有没有成功，还是没成功。

I can't say for certain that they have or they they haven't.

看起来他们确实找到了一个非常出色的解决方案。

It certainly seems as though they've come up with an excellent solution.

这是否是完美的均衡策略，我就说不准了。

Whether or not it's the perfect equilibrium strategy, I I don't know.

我没资格对此下结论。

I'm not qualified to say that.

但很明显，即使不是完美的，它至少也和世界上最强的玩家一样厉害。

But it certainly seems that even if it's not perfect, it's at least as strong as as the best players in the world.

目前看来是这样的。

It would seem right now.

这无疑是一个非常重要的里程碑。

And and that's obviously a really important landmark you know.

当年国际象棋出现这种情况时，整个象棋界都变了。

When this happened in chess it changed the chess world.

所以这方面也让限注德州扑克变得更难了一些。

So there's certainly that aspect of it too that's going to make limit hold'em a little bit tougher.

那你又是怎么从扑克转向综合格斗的呢？

So how did you go from poker to MMA?

是什么点燃了你内心的这股热情？

Like what just lit that fire within you?

嗯，确实如此。

Well, yeah.

这看起来确实不是什么顺理成章的转变。

It's not the most natural transition I guess.

一部分原因是，一位既是扑克职业选手又是我表弟的朋友带我接触了巴西柔术。

Well part of it was being introduced by a fellow friend who was a poker pro and also my cousin who's never been involved in poker, two Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

他们俩都开始练了，还告诉我这特别有意思，接着给我看Pride和UFC的老比赛录像之类的东西。

And they both started doing it and they told me it was really cool and they started showing me old DVDs of fights from Pride and UFC and all that kind of stuff.

我和我表弟还经常一起练摔跤，他个子比我小，我本身就不高，他更瘦小，但他总能用臂锁把我制服，那时候我就觉得，这玩意儿真带劲，而且我最受不了被表弟在格斗中赢了。

And I would even sort of, you know, with my cousin, who's actually smaller than I am, I'm a small guy, my cousin's even smaller, you know, we would grapple and he would catch me in these arm locks and stuff like that, and I was like, oh, this really cool, and I hate losing to my cousin in a fight.

他比我大，我们小时候他总欺负我，毕竟他是年长的表哥，经常打我、捉弄我。

He was older when when we were growing up, so he always used to beat me up because he was always the older cousin, so he would beat me up and bully me a little bit.

可等我长大了，个子比他高了，居然还是打不过他，这真让人特别沮丧。

And then as an adult, I was bigger than him and and it still didn't I I still couldn't beat him up, that was very frustrating.

所以我决定自己也去练练柔术。

So I decided to take up some of this Jiu Jitsu myself.

我第一次练柔术的时候，一个体重才一百一十五磅的小姑娘，一上来就给我来了个脚锁，直接让我认输。

And my first day of Jiu Jitsu, you know, it was a small hundred and fifteen pound girl who who put me in my first foot lock and submitted me with a foot lock.

我当时就觉得，这玩意儿真有意思。

I just thought, this is pretty cool.

我得坚持下去了。

I I kind of have to stick at it.

这事儿显然特别难。

It's it's obviously a really hard thing.

你要是个子小，练柔术或者打搏击，其他很多运动其实都挺吃亏的。

When you're a small guy, Jiu Jitsu and fighting most sports really are are quite terrible.

如果你个子小，刚开始练的时候确实特别难。

They're very hard at the beginning if you're if you're a smaller guy.

但我真的很喜欢这项运动。

But I I really enjoyed it.

随着我越来越投入柔术，再加上之前有点泰拳基础，我就想，反正我也爱看UFC比赛，不如哪天也亲自下场试试。

And as I got more into Jiu Jitsu and, you know, I'd had a a little bit of a Muay Thai background as well, I just decided, well, you know, I I like watching the UFC on TV.

这感觉真不错。

This is pretty cool.

也许我该找个机会亲自上场体验一下。

Maybe I should get in there and then try this out one day.

没错，这已经是我的第五场比赛了，上一场是四场之前。

Yeah, and that was four fights ago and I'm about to have my fifth.

我平时接触的主要是UFC选手和扑克玩家。

I obviously work with UFC fighters and poker players.

很多人听到后都会惊讶，发现这两种人面对高压、风险与回报时的心态竟然如此相似。

And people are sometimes surprised to hear how similar the mindset is needed between the two in dealing with the high pressure situations, the risk reward and things like that.

你觉得打高额扑克培养的心态，对打MMA时面对高压环境有帮助吗？

Did you find that the mindset you developed in high stakes poker helped with sort of the high stakes of going into MMA?

是的，我觉得两者要求不同，但对心理韧性的需求是相似的。

Yeah, I think they're different but similar requirements for the sort of mental toughness that is required.

在扑克里，心理韧性主要体现在如何应对逆境，比如运气差的时候。

So in poker, the mental toughness that's required has a lot to do with dealing with adversity in the sense of just bad luck.

你手气不好，别上头，别把筹码全送出去，就坚持下去，不断重新评估，但千万别太沮丧。

Of you know, you're running bad, don't go on tilt, don't punt off your stack, know, just keep plugging away, always reevaluate and always re examine but don't ever get too frustrated.

打MMA的话，难点在于很多时候你状态不好，还在健身房里被揍得够呛。

With MMA, the hard part is you know, there are many days where you're just not on point and you're getting beaten up and you're getting beaten up in the gym.

这种情况下几乎没什么运气或变数可言，因为

There's very little luck or variance in that sense because

除非遇上内华达的裁判打分。

Until it comes to Nevada judging.

对。

Yeah.

我想确实有那种倒霉的牌局。

I guess there is that bad beat.

对。

Yeah.

有好几次呢。

There's a few.

说实话，内华达的判罚可能比很多州还强点。

I mean, actually, Nevada might be better than than than a lot of states.

你看看得克萨斯那些地方的情况。

See the ones like in Texas and stuff like that.

确实如此。

It's true.

不对。

No.

但确实如此。

But it's true.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，我根本不是在谈那场打斗本身，因为运动员真正打斗的时间其实只占他们总时间的很小一部分。

I mean, I'm not even but I'm not even talking about the fight itself because I mean, fighters spend such a small percentage of their time actually fighting.

他们大部分时间其实都在训练，对吧？

They spend most of it training, right?

所以当你在健身房被队友打得团团转——不管平时是你赢多还是他们赢多，那种感觉真的很糟，你会觉得自己怎么这么不敏锐。

So when you're in the gym and getting beat up on by your teammates, whether they normally beat you up or you normally beat them up, it sucks because you you feel like, oh, I'm just I'm just not sharp.

我根本不行，根本做不好这个。

I'm not not any good at this.

我到底在这儿干嘛？

What am I doing here?

我不该干这个的。

I shouldn't be doing this.

说白了，这事儿真有点傻。

It's like, you know, this is silly.

我不适合干这个。

I'm not meant for this.

我是个扑克玩家。

I'm a poker player.

我对这个没兴趣。

I'm not a fan.

在综合格斗这种每天都被打得够呛的运动里，你很容易陷入消极心态，必须得避开这些想法，因为失去信心实在太容易了，你知道吧？

There's so many ways that you can potentially just have a negative mindset that you just have to avoid because it's so easy to lose your confidence in something like MMA where you're literally being beaten down on a day to day basis, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

你刚才说的一点挺有意思，就是职业选手一年里真正打比赛的时间其实少得可怜。

And I think one of the things you said there was quite interesting, just how small the percentage of the year is actually spent actually fighting for professional fighter.

因为很多人会说，他们干嘛抱怨钱少？

Because you hear a lot of people say, oh, why are they complaining about the money?

他一分钟就挣了一万美元，或者类似的说法，其实UFC的收入远没那么高。

He just made $10,000 a minute, or whatever it might be, the UFC is substantially less than that.

但人们没考虑到，为了打这两场比赛，可能要整整一年的训练，而且收入其实低得可怜。

But you know, people aren't taking into account the whole year of training that might go into just two fights, and just how low the wages are, if that's the case.

说得对。

Yeah.

说每分钟挣一万美元、五千美元，这种话真的太离谱了。

That's really silly for people to say like, you know, dollars 10,000 for minute or $5,000 for a minute.

你刚才提到，我今天看到一个数据，像弗兰克·埃德加这样的选手，职业生涯在笼子里总共打了将近九个小时，简直不可思议。

Like you said, I read a stat today that something like Frank Edgar in your eye favor have spent like nine hours in the cage or something like that, which is amazing, which is mind blowing.

他们俩可是打过无数场比赛的选手。

And are two guys who have fought a ton.

但即便如此，像他们这样最勤勉的拳手，也大概花了十五到二十年时间训练，每周二十小时左右。

But even then, if you're talking about two of the most prolific fighters, they've probably both spent fifteen, twenty years training, twenty hours a week or so.

把这些时间全加起来看看。

Like, you add that all up.

这九个小时根本没法比。

That that dwarfs nine hours, I mean.

然后，你得想想这背后的经济问题。

And then, you know, you talk about the financial aspect of it.

对。

Yeah.

动不动就说每分钟两万美元之类的。

Like, owe 20,000 per minute or whatever.

你算算看，交完税、付完医疗费、训练开销、装备、伙食、营养补剂，这些全都得自己承担。

You know, you consider after taxes, after medical, you know, after paying for their training, after paying for their equipment, and food, and supplements, and all this kind of stuff.

如果你不是世界顶尖的那一批，打拳根本赚不到什么钱。

Fighting is not a great way to make a living if you're if you're not one of the best in the world.

其实我现在对扑克也差不多是这种感觉。

I mean, I I sort of feel that way about poker too these days.

现在打扑克，你就算不是最顶尖的，也能混得不错，但打拳就不一样了，水平一般根本赚不到钱。

Now poker, you can still be a pretty good poker player and make a pretty good living, whereas it's hard to be a pretty good fighter and make a good living.

但至少在经济机会上，扑克选手确实比拳手多得多。

But definitely, there are more opportunities exist for poker players, at least financially.

你还玩扑克这么多年，这中间其实有些挺有意思的现象。

And there was something that that's quite interesting because you've been in the game for so many years around poker.

对。

Mhmm.

我有时候觉得，那些从2000年代中期就开始玩的人，反而不像新来的年轻人那样认真对待这行。

I I sometimes have more difficulty with guys who've been playing since the mid two thousands in terms of how professionally they need to take the game versus the new guys who've only been playing for two or three years.

新一辈的玩家，都是把扑克当正经职业来做的。

And they're treating the new guys are treating it like a professional sport.

可有些老玩家，还觉得打牌嘛，穿个睡衣就上了。

And the guy some of the guys who've been around a longer time, instead of saying, well, like playing in my pajamas.

打牌的时候抽根大麻，也挺自在的。

I like smoking a joint while I'm playing.

就是这种态度。

These sorts of things.

他们以前在好时候赚得太容易了，现在反而没那么拼了；反观那些新来的，清楚知道这行现在得当正经事业来干，个个都特别拼命。

And there does seem to be they were so used to making money in the good days that they're not as competitive as the much hungrier, you know, new guys who come to it realizing that it has to be taken as a professional sport now.

没错，就是这样。

That's exactly it, you know.

我之前说过，我在两千年代中期赚了不少钱，但没去尝试其他牌类游戏。

It was I I mentioned before that that I was making a lot of money in the mid 2 thousands, and and I didn't diversify into other games.

我其实知道限注德扑的赚钱时代不会永远持续，可我从来没想过：也许我该从头开始学PLO、八牌或三张抽，好好钻研一下，因为那时候根本不需要拼命。

I didn't, you know I mean, maybe I realized that the limit hold'em money train wasn't going to last forever, but I never said, well, maybe I should start from the ground up in PLO or eight or better or triple draw or any of these kind of things and work hard because it wasn't, because I didn't have to work hard.

我当时限注德扑已经很厉害了，就算状态最差的一天，每小时也能轻松赚几百块，太简单了。

I was already really good at limit hold'em and on my worst day, I was probably still good enough to make hundreds of dollars an hour and it was too easy.

这既是福气，也是负担。

I mean, it's a blessing and a curse simultaneously.

当然，如果你当初理财得当、投资明智，现在日子肯定过得不错。

Obviously, you know, if you financially spent your money well, invested your money well, then you're doing fine now.

但你说得对，现在真的难多了。让我跳进八种混合牌局、重新从头学起，这对我来说太难了。毕竟我曾经是顶尖玩家，而到了2015年，如果你想成为真正的高手，就必须不断研究心理层面，还有翻牌圈、转牌圈和河牌圈的每一个策略细节。

But you're right, it is so much harder and it is so hard for me to say jump into an eight game mix and just really dedicate myself to relearning these games, you know, because, you know, like, I was at this elite level and it is hard and it is one of those things that if you really want to be a great poker player in the year 2015, you do have to constantly study the mental aspect that you guys do and the strategic nuts and bolts of how to play on the flop turn and river.

有意思的是，我们刚看到那个年轻人赢了EPT总决赛，叫查理的，名字一时想不起来了。

You know it's so interesting because we just saw the kid win the EPT grand final, Charlie, can't remember his last name right off the top of my head now.

但他才刚玩了大概两年的扑克。

But he just started playing poker in the last like two years.

真厉害。

Wow.

他从第一天起就全身心投入练习，就在几天前，他刚赢了APPT高额奖金赛。

But he's just like gone balls out from day one working on his game and he just wins the high roller at the APT grand final, just like a few days ago.

这真的太惊人了。

That is really amazing.

互联网时代显然提供了这种可能，因为在没有网络扑克的年代，一个只玩了两年的人，想在像APPT高额赛这样结构深、对手全是世界顶尖玩家的比赛中胜出，几乎是不可能的——当然，谁都有可能赢一场比赛，但要达到这种水平，难度太大了。

And the internet age obviously provides that because it would have been really hard before internet poker for anybody with only two years of experience to, I mean anybody can win a tournament of course, but if you talk about something like an APPT high roller with a really deep structure against all the best players in the world, that's a really hard task to get at that level.

就算不提攒够玩2.5万欧元赛事的资金，光是这一点，在过去也难如登天。

You know, even neglecting the idea of building a bankroll to play €25,000 events, you know, that would have been really hard.

我刚开始打现场扑克的时候，玩的是4/8限注，后来才慢慢升到10/20，再到15/30。

And when I started playing live poker, I I was playing four eight limit, and then I slowly moved up to ten twenty and fifteen thirty.

但这可是花了好几年才走完的路。

But that, know, that's a process of like over years.

现在你知道了，如果你能同时玩十二张桌子——很多选手确实能做到，每天玩十个小时，而且还是在Zoom上。

Now, you know, if you're able to 12 table and and you a lot of these guys are able to do, you know, 12 table, ten hours a day kind of stuff, and you know, on Zoom.

他们甚至能打到远超以往的手数。

They even have the ability to get far far more hands.

如果你认真思考每一手牌，而不是瞎打，那当然进步得特别快。

You know, if thinking about those hands and they're not just mindlessly playing them, yeah, of course they're gonna get good really fast.

另外得提一下，他叫查理·卡罗尔。

And just to give the proper shout out, his name is Charlie Carroll.

所以大家都知道一下这个人。

So every just so everybody knows.

还有

And

说到你现在的扑克情况，我知道你提到现在玩得少了，但你还是打算去参加世界扑克系列赛。

in terms of your poker now, I know you mentioned you're not playing as much, but you are thinking going to the World Series.

你觉得和线上SCOOOP比赛相比，现场扑克还有没有明显的优势？

Do you think there's still much more of an edge in live poker when you compare it to the SCOOOP competition online?

我觉得世界系列赛的回报率一直都很高，因为有太多业余和休闲玩家参与。

Well, I think the I think the World Series is is always going to be quite good in terms of of ROI just because there are so many casual and recreational players.

说不准，我可能也是其中之一。

I mean, I might be one of them.

它能吸引所有自认为牌技还不错的玩家，不管是不是真有水平。

But, you know, it's able to draw the everybody who thinks they're even kind of remotely good at poker, know.

那个在自家牌局、酒吧、高尔夫俱乐部里最厉害的家伙，都会来参加。

The guy who's just the best guy at his home game back home, or or at his bar, or or his or his golf club, or whatever.

这些人都会出现在世界系列赛上。

They all Those guys all show up to the World Series.

有些商人根本觉得自己不是最强的，但还是来了，就因为喜欢打牌，喜欢参加世界系列赛。

You know, business folk who don't even think that they're the best players, but they show up because they love playing poker and they love playing the World Series.

还有那些想来赢一枚世界系列赛手链、博取名声的人。

The glory hunters who want to show up and win a World Series bracelet.

所有这些因素加在一起，让这场比赛成了赚钱的好机会。

All the other kind of stuff just combines for a better money making opportunity.

所以，我还是会去参加世界系列赛。

So, yeah, I'm I'm still gonna go to the World Series.

我觉得自己不太会参加那些两万五千美元的短桌赛事之类的，那种场合我可能根本没优势，就算有点优势也微乎其微。

I don't I don't think you'll find me in in too many of, you know, the $25,000 short handed events and things like that is probably a situation where where I'm a dog or if I'm not a dog, it's certainly not a big advantage very much.

所以，我依然很喜欢世界系列赛，玩起来特别有意思。

So, yeah, I still love the World Series and it's fun to me.

就我目前的职业阶段来说，我觉得自己更像一个认真的业余玩家。

And I At this point in my career, I do think of myself as sort of a serious amateur.

我会尽力打，认真练牌，但那不是我的饭碗，我也不把它当成一份必须拼尽全力、非赢不可的工作。

Know, I try my best and I do play very hard and I do work on my game, but it's not what I count on to make a living, and I also don't go into it with a mentality that it's like a job for me, and I have to be really successful and make it priority number one.

另外，出于好奇，你去拉斯维加斯的时候，肯定也会接触综合格斗吧。

And out of interest, when you're in Vegas, obviously you've got the MMA side as well.

你会去格斗馆训练吗？

Do you go and train at the MMA gyms?

在拉斯维加斯，扑克当然是主旋律，我也是这样。

Is it Vegas is about poker, I do

我在拉斯维加斯主要练综合格斗。

I MMA the rest of the love training in Vegas.

我通常去Cobra Kai训练。

I typically train at Cobra Kai.

明白了。

Okay.

练柔术。

Jiu Jitsu.

我很喜欢那里。

And I really like it there.

那里的水平真的很高。

Like the skill level is great.

那里有很多和我体型差不多的人。

There are lots of guys my size.

我很欣赏辛戈在拉斯维加斯使用的训练方法。

I really like the training methodology that's used by Simgo in Vegas.

我知道你跟德里斯代尔合作。

I know you work with Drysdale.

他算是个竞争对手，我也跟他的一些学生比过，那可真是难缠的对手。

He's kind of a competitor of sorts, but And I've competed against some of his students who've been really tough.

所以我跟德里斯代尔那边的人也比过柔术。

So I've competed in Jiu Jitsu against some dry sales guy.

但我真的很喜欢在拉斯维加斯训练。

But I really like training in Vegas.

很明显，在拉斯维加斯，大家训练起来都特别认真。

Obviously, people in Vegas, when they train, they take it pretty seriously.

可能是因为拉斯维加斯本身就是世界格斗之都，氛围使然，或者干脆就是聚集了一大群综合格斗和缠斗选手。

Maybe just because of the culture of Vegas being kind of the fight capital of the world and all that, or you know, it's just create a critical mass of MMA fighters and grapplers and all

那里的道馆多得数不清，很多人在不同道馆之间流动，随便走进哪家，都能碰到职业选手，UFC的知名选手天天都在垫子上练，根本不用稀奇。

Well, there are so many gyms there, and a lot of people crossover between the gyms, and there's so many professional fighters in every, you know, when I've walked in and out of the gyms there, you know, there are always well known UFC fighters on the mats, just all the time.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得没错。

I I remember yeah.

就算你走进健身房没看到UFC选手，也可能看到一个两年内就会进UFC的家伙。

Just you you just kind of or or even even if you walk into a gym and you don't see a UFC fighter, you might see a guy who who's gonna be a UFC fighter in two years.

我在 Vegas 健身房的时候，经常有这种感觉。

I I feel that way a lot of the time when I'm at when I'm at the gym in Vegas.

那个人可能没人听说过，但两年后你很可能在电视上看到他，因为他现在连黑带都打得毫无还手之力。

I'm like, well, I've nobody's ever heard of this guy, but I wouldn't be surprised if we're watching it on TV in two years just because he's like wiping the floor with black belts that kind of thing.

我们请Drysdale来的时候，他提到过在柔术里拿到黑带需要经历很长的过程。

You know when we had Drysdale on he talked about just the lengthy process that goes into becoming a black belt in Jiu Jitsu.

那你现在走到哪一步了？你有打算拿黑带吗？

So how far are you on that progression or is that something you're even after?

其实没有。

It's not really.

我现在还是蓝带。

I'm still a blue belt in juicer.

我当蓝带已经四年了。

I've a blue belt in juicer for like four years.

过去几年我很少穿道服训练，主要是因为练综合格斗。

I haven't trained very much in the gi over the last few years just because of the MMA thing.

我大概会重新开始穿道服练，因为换个方式挺好的，就像我之前说的玩德州扑克时也玩点别的牌类，多尝试不同项目对自己有好处。

I I probably will go back to it because it's a it's a nice change of pace and and sort of what like I was talking about with limit hold'em and playing other games, it's it's probably good to diversify and put myself in an uncomfortable situation.

我真的很喜欢无道服柔术，也享受这个过程，我觉得自己在这上面稍微强一点，但我还是该练道服，因为我不擅长，而且练的时候会感到不自在。

I really like no gi jujitsu, and I enjoy it, and I think I'm a little bit better at it, but I should do gi just because I'm not as good at it, and because it does make me uncomfortable.

我觉得我该好好领悟一下这个道理，你知道的。

Because I feel like maybe maybe I should learn that lesson a little bit, you know.

别人练奥马哈高牌是靠大量练习才变强的，但我没走那条路。

I didn't Much in the way that other people got good at potluck in Omaha, and I didn't go that route, you know.

我不希望我的格斗训练也变成这样。

I don't want that to happen with my martial arts training as well.

所以吧，我现在是白带，不过最近可能要重新练起来。

So yeah, I'm a blue belt in Jiu Jitsu, but maybe going back to it soon.

他提到过一点关于柔术里的决策树，这让我认识的很多扑克玩家都挺惊讶的，就是各种招式的组合套路。

And one of the things he was mentioning in Jiu Jitsu, which surprised lots of the poker players I speak to, is the idea of decision trees in martial arts and the different combinations of moves.

你在打扑克的时候，从某个位置切换到锁臂、锁腿这些动作，会不会觉得跟柔术里的思路有相通之处？

Do you find that there's some crossover from that side when you think about what you need to do in poker and then switching from a certain position into an arm lock into a leg lock, etcetera.

说到底，每件事其实都有一套决策路径，只是程度不同罢了。

Just this idea that there is a decision tree for everything to some extent.

我确实觉得是这样。

Yeah, I really do think there is.

比如在穿道服的柔术里，你可以从十字锁喉转到手臂锁。

Like an example from gi jujitsu might be, you know, your cross collar choke into your arm bar.

你锁喉的技术越到位，对方就越得抬手护住脖子，这时候你正好去攻他的手臂。

The better your cross collar choke is, the more the guy has to raise his hands to defend his collar, and then you're attacking an arm bar.

在扑克里，这就好比你在河牌圈有一套特定的下注范围。

And you know, so in poker, that may be having a certain distribution on the river.

你知道吗，一个牌面上你的诈唬越多，这个牌面的价值就越高。

You know, the more the more bluffs you have on a certain board, the more you can value that.

这其实是一个同样的道理。

It's the same kind of idea.

不过不同的是，在摔跤或者综合格斗里，你必须迅速做出决定。

Now, what's different is that, of course, in grappling or in MMA or whatever, you have to make that decision very quickly.

你的模式识别得几乎是瞬间完成的。

Your pattern recognition has to occur nearly instantaneously.

必须得靠本能反应。

It has to be instinctive.

你可没时间在河牌圈盯着牌面想四十五秒，琢磨他刚才是不是出了个左勾拳。

You don't get to sit there for forty five seconds on the river deciding whether, well, gee, he just threw a left jab.

要不要闪到外侧，再回一个勾拳打肋部？

Maybe I'll slip it to the outside and try to throw a hook to the body.

也许可以，也可能不行——但你根本没像打扑克那样充裕的时间去反复权衡。

Well, maybe, or maybe I'll just try to, you know, you don't have that kind of decision making time like you do in poker.

但在扑克里，我常发现，如果你没在事前把决策想清楚，到了关键时刻往往只能做出糟糕的选择。因为那时候你压力很大，人一紧张就容易本能地做出习惯性反应，而那个反应未必是正确的。

But in poker, often, I find that if you haven't thought through the decision before you get there, you'll you'll often just make the poor one because you're in a situation where you're under a lot of stress and often when you're under stress, you might just go to your default behavior and that may or may not be the right move.

所以，如果你提前就想好了该怎么做，或者提前规划好你的策略分布，那做起来就轻松多了。

So if you've sort of figured out already what you should do or what your distribution should look like in advance, then then it becomes much easier.

从这个角度看，扑克和柔术，或者说扑克和缠斗，非常相似。你都得在真正陷入局面之前就把问题想透，因为一旦真到了那个境地，往往已经来不及慢慢琢磨了。

And so in that way, poker and and Jiu Jitsu, or poker and grappling, are very similar in the sense that you have to think about it before you're actually in the situation because by you know, often when you're in the you're actually in the situation, it might be too late for you to sort of figure it out.

我知道你是蒂姆·费里斯的铁杆粉丝，还有他的播客。

I know that you're a huge fan of Tim Ferriss and his podcast.

顺着蒂姆·费里斯的风格，你觉得扑克圈里谁最欠揍？

So in the Tim Ferriss vein, who do you think is the most punchable person in poker?

这个问题问得太棒了。

That's a wonderful that is great.

我完全没想到会听到这个，因为我听过他问这个问题无数次了，我还以为听过他节目的人肯定也听过以前的期数。

I didn't expect that to happen because I've listened I've heard him ask that question so many times and I figured nobody who listens to his show must ever have listened to any previous one.

不然的话，他们早就准备好接招了。

Otherwise, they'd be ready for it.

我在这儿。

Here I am.

情况是这样的。

Situation.

要说最招人讨厌的，那肯定是菲尔·赫尔穆特，他总是一副自以为是的样子，还特别盲目地高估自己的水平。

Boy, you know, you you kind of have to the stock answer would have to be Phil Hellmuth, almost in the sense that, you know, he's smug and and he's in in some ways so deluded about his own skill.

我真搞不懂，这种性格到底是他的优点还是缺点。

And I can't figure out whether that's like, a positive about him.

他显然非常成功。

You know, he's obviously really successful.

你们可能更了解这方面的情况。

I mean, you guys probably have a better insight to that.

他是尽管有这种态度才成功，还是正因为有这种态度才成功的？

You know, is he successful in spite of having that attitude, or is he successful because of that attitude?

但有时候，我真的被他惊到了。

But sometimes you just you just blows my mind.

但我不会这么回答，毕竟我不想打菲尔。

But I wouldn't really answer that because I wouldn't wanna punch Phil.

我觉得他还没做什么值得挨揍的事。

I don't feel like he's done actually anything worth being punched.

要说谁更该挨一顿狠揍，我觉得拉塞尔·汉密尔顿才够格。

I mean, I would have to say somebody like Russ Hamilton is far more deserving of a really, really good punch.

就狠狠来一拳打在脸上。

Just a really good face punch.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得，这至少是扑克玩家该有的待遇。

I mean, I think I think that's the least that poker players could get.

我希望，如果我们真有这个机会，扑克玩家们可能会提名我。

I I would like to think that if we ever we ever get that opportunity, maybe maybe the poker players will nominate me.

不过，他们选别人我也完全能理解。

Although, maybe they'll get a guy, and I wouldn't blame them for that.

也许是马克·卡特曼。

Maybe Mark Catman.

也许是马克·卡特曼。

Maybe Mark Catman.

我明白了。

I got it.

他最擅长这个。

He can do the best.

他适合干这个。

He's for that.

说到情绪失控，我想问问，在你的职业生涯里，见过最极端的爆牌情况是什么？

And I guess in terms of, you know, segue into tilt, I mean, what's the most extreme tilt you've seen over your career?

你打现场的时候，有没有见过特别疯狂的事？

Have you seen anything crazy when you were playing live?

我知道这周网上流传着一些扑克桌上打架的视频。

I know there's some sort of videos of fights at the poker table have been out this week.

是的

Yeah.

我主持的《Two Plus Two》播客今天刚聊过这场打斗。

I do the two plus two podcast and we talked about that fight today.

那段视频真是疯了。

That was a crazy video.

其实那场在新奥尔良的打斗挺精彩的。

It was a really good fight actually in New Orleans.

如果你在YouTube上找的话。

If you've got the YouTube.

对

Yeah.

那个个子小一点的，就是被挑衅的那位，看起来有摔跤背景，他一把抱住对方腰，直接来了个背摔，把人甩到了地上。

Mean, the smaller guy, the guy who was sort of being antagonized, you know, seemed to have some wrestling background, kinda picked the guy up with a gut wrench and kinda tossed him on the ground.

这摔得真漂亮。

Good ground impound.

就是那个我完全没料到的家伙。

It was that guy I didn't see coming.

是的。

Yeah.

我以前还真因为情绪失控被挑战去扑克桌边打一架，那次我对手拿了对子，我却凑成了四条，他连着骂了我好几次脏话。

So I've actually been challenged to fight to the pokers table before because of of tilt once because I was set under set against the guy, I just I just hit quads, and he called me a cocksucker a few times.

我就提醒他，最好别再用那种词了。

And I kind of asked I I suggested to him that he might want to stop using that particular term.

但最后也没真闹起来。

Nothing ever came to it.

我从来不觉得街头斗殴或者在牌桌上动手有什么意义。

Don't really believe in street fights or fighting at the table.

要说情绪失控到离谱的例子，我脑子里还真想不出一个，估计你们节目的听众早就见得多了。

But nothing really stands out in my head as just an obscene example of tilt that I don't think anybody who listens to your show probably has already seen themselves.

就是大喊大叫、踢翻椅子、乱扔东西那种。

You know, screaming, kicking over chairs, you know, throwing things.

你知道吗，我节目的搭档，我好朋友亚当·施瓦茨，据说已经摔坏过十五个鼠标了。

You know, my cohost on the show, my good friend Adam Schwartz has broken about 15 mice, I think.

但说句公道话，他后来确实不摔鼠标了。

But to his credit, he quit breaking mice.

以前他只要一输钱，就跑去百货商店买那种六块钱的便宜鼠标，一打坏就换新的，网上打牌的时候尤其如此。

But he used to just regularly have to go to the department store and buy all the cheap $6 mice because he would just smash them whenever he took a bad beat and then online poker.

情绪失控真的会以多种方式让你损失大量金钱。

Tilt can cost you a lot of money in more ways than one.

是啊，我虽然没摔过鼠标，但曾经把鼠标扔过。

Yeah, I actually, I didn't break a mouse but I once threw a mouse.

那次扔鼠标可不便宜，事情是这样的：我刚输了一手，整场都在赔钱。

It's actually a fairly expensive mouse throw because what happened was, you know, I took a bad beat, you know, I was just losing money in a session.

于是我直接把鼠标扔了，而且那还不是无线鼠标。

So I threw the mouse and it wasn't a wireless mouse.

那是个有线鼠标。

It was a a wired mouse.