016 Daryl Jace – The Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客，我是特里西亚和埃利奥特。

So welcome to the Mindset Advantage podcast with Doctor.

我是特里西亚·卡德纳和埃利奥特·罗。

Tricia Cardner and Elliot Rowe.

特里西亚，跟大家介绍一下你自己吧。

So Tricia, tell all the audience about yourself.

大家好，我是《积极扑克》的作者，同时也是一名扑克玩家和心理教练。

Hey everyone, I am the author of Positive Poker as well as a poker player and mental game coach.

我是埃利奥特·罗，是一名心态教练，主要帮助扑克玩家和UFC选手。

And my name is Elliot Rowe, I'm a mindset coach and I work with poker players and UFC fighters.

特里西亚，这周有什么新消息跟大家分享吗？

So Tricia, what news do you have for us this week?

最近有一项新研究发布了，讲的是掌控感的问题。

Well, a recent piece of research just came out and it has to do with being in control.

你们知道，在扑克桌上，我们总想掌控一切，自己决定命运，但有时候事情就是不如人意。

And you know how oftentimes at the poker table, we wanna be in control of everything and create our own destiny, but sometimes that just doesn't happen and things don't go our way.

最近有一项新研究发现，接受并适应那些无法改变的情况，实际上能减少负面情绪。

Well, some new research has found that accepting and adapting to circumstances that can't be changed is actually linked to fewer negative emotions.

这种现象被称为次级控制。

And that's actually something called secondary control.

因为我们主动掌控、试图塑造命运的时候，那叫初级控制。

Because when we are in control and creating our destiny, that's a form of primary control.

我知道听起来好像挺理所当然的——当然了，如果我能接受无法改变的事，心情自然会更轻松、更积极什么的。

And I know this sounds like really common sensical, like of course, if I accept what I can't change it's going to help me be happier, more positive or whatever.

但真有研究做了，调查了500个人，结果发现，如果你一味硬撑、拼命想控制一切，反而更容易产生负面情绪。

But an actual study was done where they looked at 500 people and they did find that if you strictly try to power through and control, control, control, that is linked to negative emotions.

所以关键是要学会：别跟那些你改变不了的事较劲。

So it's important to learn, don't fight things that you can't change.

硬抗比接受现实还要糟糕。

That's worse than just accepting the reality.

对。

Yeah.

这些建议真是非常到位。

I mean, great advice there on the table.

我们没法改变手里的牌。

We cannot change the cards we're dealt.

但我们可以改变怎么打这些牌。

We can change the way we play them.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

现在正在打世界系列赛的各位，这些建议特别适用。

Excellent advice for you guys there at the World Series at the moment.

这周我们请到了达里尔·杰斯，一位非常成功的选手。

And this week, we've got Daryl Jace coming on, a very successful player.

他多次打进周日百万赛的最终桌。

He's been on the the final table of the Sunday Million multiple times.

他赢过好几次了。

He's won a couple of times.

他待会儿会来聊聊学习，还有怎么提升学习方法，从而提高你的扑克水平。

And he's coming on to talk about study and his thoughts on how you can improve your study and improve your poker game.

那我们马上请达里尔连线。

So let's give Daryl a call.

嗨，达里尔。

So hi, Daryl.

感谢你来参加节目。

Thanks for coming on the show.

能不能先向我们的听众简单介绍一下你自己？

If you could introduce yourself to our listeners.

是的。

Yeah.

我当职业扑克玩家已经快一半的人生了。

I'm a professional poker player for, like, half of my life so far.

过去三四年来我一直做教练工作。

Been doing coaching, like, the other three, four years.

赢过好几次大型赛事，比如周日百万赛就拿了两三次冠军。

Won a bunch of the majors, Sunday Million 2 or three times.

进过几次决赛桌，大概两三次吧。

Final Table did another two or three times.

在WCOOP主赛事中拿过第五名。

Fifth in WCOOP main.

赢过FTOPS主赛事。

Won the FTOPS main.

总盈利超过一百万美元。

Have over a million profit.

我也不太确定。

I don't know.

不过这么多年来，我的投资回报率一直很高。

Pretty high ROI over the past, however, many years.

你当初是怎么接触到扑克的，还有开始玩的时候多大，这点挺有意思的。

So one of the interesting things about you was how you found poker and the sort of age that you started poker.

你能跟我们说说这段经历吗？

And could you talk us through that?

是的。

Yeah.

说起来，我小时候跟爷爷一起玩纸牌，我们有个东西，就是那种放零钱的容器，叫什么来着？

Well, going to the first part, it was, like, playing card games with my granddad, and we had this what's the thing called where you put change in it?

天哪。

Jesus.

零钱罐？

A change jar?

对。

Yeah.

那个零钱罐是瓶子形状的。

Change jar, but it was shaped like a bottle.

我想那是给哪个婴儿准备的，后来我们就把里面的钱全倒出来了。

I guess it was for, like, one of the babies or something, and we just empty it out.

那是个特别大的瓶子形状的存钱罐。

And it's this huge, like, bottle thing.

我们把钱倒出来后，就玩各种各样的纸牌游戏，毕竟那是很久以前的事了。

We just empty it out, and we'd play card games, you know, all the different ones because this was a long time ago.

那时候Holden还没流行呢。

You know, Holden wasn't even popular back then.

我记得爷爷总是赢我跟两个表兄弟，每次都赢。

And I just remember my granddad used to just win all the time versus me and my two cousins.

我那时候真觉得他打牌特别厉害。

I used to just think he was the greatest at it.

挺搞笑的是，等他年纪大了，打牌居然经常玩50的VPIP，PFR只有10%，水平其实很差。

And just funny, like, because it turns out when he's older, plays, like, maybe 50 VPIP, 10% PFR, and he's just really terrible.

这就是我打扑克的起点。

So that was my initial start.

后来没过多久，我就退学了。

And then sometime not too long after that, I dropped out of school.

不知道为什么，那时候WSOP和WPT正火，我一下子迷上了扑克。

And for some reason or another well, probably, you know, WSOP, WPT was on, and I got really into poker.

那时候真是人才辈出，形形色色的人都有。

I mean, there were so many interesting characters back then.

想不被吸引都难。

It was really hard not to, you know.

菲尔·哈特曼、内格鲁努、古斯·汉森，那时候他们简直酷到不行，还有其他那些人。

Phil Hellmuth, Negranu, Gus Hansen was like the coolest back then and all those guys.

我彻底沉迷进了扑克。

Got really into poker.

我就是特别想把能找着的书全读一遍，让自己变得更强。

And for some reason, I just wanted to read every single book that I could and get better at it.

挺有意思的是，那时候我特别讨厌上学，真不明白为啥会觉得读一堆扑克书会是件好事。

And which was kind of interesting because I really hated school back then, so I'm not sure why I thought reading a bunch of books on it would be good.

但我就是这么做了。

But I just did.

我那时候堆了一大堆书，开始打现金局和免费赛。

I had, you know, this huge stack of books, started playing cash games and free rolls.

那时候的免费赛特别有意思，你能在好几个网站上赢个几百块的奖金。

Free rolls back in the day were really cool because you can win a free roll for, like, few $100 on multiple sites.

我就拼命打免费赛，玩现金局，后来还赢过一次周日百万赛，奖金九万美金，之后的事儿就不用多说了。

So just grinded the shit out of free rolls, played cash games, and won the Sunday Million for, like, 90 k at one point, and rest is kind of history.

但我觉得特别有意思的是，你那时候打很多现金局，现在却把自己当成MTT专家。

But I think it's so interesting that you were doing a lot of cash, but now you consider yourself an MTT specialist.

你是怎么决定走上这条路的呢？

How did you, you know, decide that was going to be the path for you?

我觉得赢下那九万美元的一场比赛，算是个重大转折。

Well, I think winning 90,000 in one tournament was kind of a big turnaround.

那时候我还在那儿一点点地攒几百块呢。

You know, I'm sitting there grinding a few 100.

我打现金局赚了两千块。

You know, I made 2,000 playing cash games.

我当时就想，哎，这还不错。

I'm like, oh, that's nice.

我连续熬了一个月。

You know, I grinded for a month.

结果有一天，我打了周日百万赛，拿了九万块。

And then one day, played the Sunday Million with 90 k.

所以这个选择其实很自然。

So it was an easy decision.

你觉得这个建议适合所有扑克玩家吗？

Is it one that you would advise for poker players generally?

我觉得要看情况。

I think it depends.

我觉得很多人更喜欢锦标赛，毕竟有个明确的终点，还有机会赢大奖。

I mean, I feel like a lot of people like tournaments more just because there's an ending you could win.

毕竟赢了有光环，所以很多人觉得现金局太枯燥、太单调。

There's, you know, glory at the end, and they find cash games a bit boring and monotonous.

所以我觉得这得看你更喜欢哪种。

So I think it depends on what you enjoy better.

如果你觉得现金局的收益更稳定、更可预期，那我一般会选这个，除非你真的觉得它特别无聊。

If you feel like cash games are just way more stable and consistent in comp, so I would generally choose that unless you just find it really boring, basically.

我觉得在多表锦标赛里，你遇到休闲玩家的机会比现金局大得多，对吧？

I think you have a much higher chance of being able to play against recreational players in your tables and MTTs, don't you?

对。

Yeah.

相比现金局来说是这样。

Compared to the cash games.

我接触的那些玩现金局的人说，每张桌通常只有一个休闲玩家，最多两个。

Because a lot of the cash game guys I talk to, there might be one recreational player per table, maybe two.

但打锦标赛的时候，你经常能碰到那种桌上只有少数几个职业玩家的情况。

Whereas obviously throughout an MTT, you might consistently be on tables where there's only one or two regs.

是的，完全没错。

Yeah, absolutely.

打多表锦标赛也一样，确实更容易遇到业余玩家，就像你说的。

MTT as well, it was kind of easy, always retracts more recs, like you're saying.

对。

Yeah.

那从教练的角度来看，你是怎么转型成为教练的？

And then from the coaching side, how did you transition to become a coach?

刚开始跟别人分享你的经验，觉得很难吗？

Was it difficult for you to start sharing your knowledge with people?

还是说你其实很享受这个过程，甚至很期待去做？

Or was that something you actually enjoy and looking forward to doing?

我不太确定。

I don't know.

我想我一直以来都比较坦率开放。

I guess I've always just been naturally open.

我最早开始拍Poker Axe Factor的视频时，很多人讨论说要对出价信息留一手。

I remember I started videos for Poker Axe Factor a long time ago, and a lot of people were talking about holding back info on bids.

我也说不准。

And I don't know.

但我觉得这根本说不通。

That just never seemed right to me.

你懂的吧？

You know?

如果我要做这件事，我就想做到最好。

If I was gonna do it, I wanted to be the best at it.

这其实一直是我做事的风格。

Just kind of, like, common thing in my life.

所以我根本没法接受藏着掖着，拍出不尽力的视频。

So I just couldn't see holding back and making videos less than my best.

我觉得关于教练这块，我们能问你很多问题，但我先想问一下，我之前在别的采访里听你说过，好的教练能让学生想得更清楚。

I feel like there's so many questions we could ask you around the coaching, but I want to start with, I heard you say on another interview that a good coach makes their students think better.

你能说说你是怎么安排辅导课的，帮助学生提升思考能力吗？

Can you talk about, you know, how you set up your coaching sessions to help your students think better?

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我先得简单解释一下，所谓‘想得更好’到底是什么意思。

I think first I should perhaps explain what I mean by think better really quick.

明白。

Okay.

方法多得是。

There's a ton of ways.

我简单说一下，这其实远不全面。

I'll make it really short, this is really incomplete.

但有一个很常见、也很基本的错误，就是很多人在做辅导时都会犯。

But a big thing, a big simple thing that people do wrong is I coach a lot of people.

如果我辅导一个性格内向、倾向消极或者比较保守的人，他们思考问题时总是带着负面偏见。

And if I coach someone who's introverted and kind of like on the negative side or no conservative, they always the way they think is they have this bias towards negativity.

所以他们在分析一手牌时，只会想到可能发生的所有坏事。

So they'll analyze a hand, and they'll just think about the negative things that could happen.

结果就是，他们打得太过谨慎。

And they'll just conversely, they just play too tight.

而另一类人，我猜叫作‘alpha型’，就是那种特别外向的人，他们总是想着：‘我就在这里加注，继续下注，对方肯定得弃牌。’

And then you get the guys, I guess it's called a type personality alpha types, the really, you know, extroverted type guys, and just like, oh, I'm just gonna, like, three bet here and barrel and bet, and this guy's gonna fold here.

要是他没弃牌，我就继续推进，把他全压了，或者类似的情况。

And if he doesn't fold here, I'll get there and stack him or, you know, whatever.

反过来，有些人则打得过于激进。

And conversely, there's play to agro.

这只是一个简单的例子，其实就是帮他们意识到自己存在的思维偏差。

So that's like a kind of simple example of, I mean, just pointing out the bias to them.

你可以用数据来向他们展示这一点。

You can show them like data based on that.

所以我经常和人们一对一交流。

So I have sessions with people.

就在一周前，有个人跟我说：‘我不喜欢在河牌圈诈唬，因为对方总是跟注。’

And now this is a week ago, this guy says, I don't like bluffing the river they always call.

我就说：‘好啊。',

So I'm like, okay.

那你拿出证据来给我看看。

Prove it to me.

于是我们一起打开了Holdem Manager。

So we go through Holdo Manager.

我们来查查你所有在河牌圈诈唬的牌局，看看对方到底有多少次弃牌。

Let's look at every spot you bluff the river and see how often they fold.

结果出来之后，

And, you know, the results come back.

哦，原来对方有60%的几率会弃牌。

Oh, they fold 60% of the time.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

你下河牌圈注的时候，有90%的时间都是拿着价值牌。

90% of the time when you bet the river, have value.

这事儿就这么直白地摆在面前，根本没法否认。

So so, you know, very kind of just in your face, no way to kind of disprove that.

然后就是建议一些东西，比如冥想、斯多葛哲学，去了解这些方法，让自己更客观，学会自我反思之类的。

Then there's just recommending stuff like meditation, stoicism, and learning about that whole practice to become more objective, self reflection, and stuff like that.

说实话，我也没那么擅长处理这类问题。

I mean, I'm not a pro at dealing with this type of stuff.

我觉得埃利奥特对应对这些偏见，肯定比我更有见解。

I think Elliot would have some better answers for dealing with those biases than I do.

是的。

Yeah.

这挺有意思的，因为我平时跟人聊这个，都是从比较宽泛的角度来说。

It's quite interesting because obviously I talk to people about it in a more general term.

所以他们来找我，是为了解决某种心态问题，而这些模式有时就会浮现出来。

So they come to me for a specific mindset issue and then those themes will sometimes show up.

当然，消极情绪经常会出现。

I mean, certainly the negativity comes up quite a bit.

但当你把数据摆给他们看，指出他们牌桌上真实的情况时，那种震撼一定很强烈——他们这才意识到，自己一直用完全不同的方式看待现实。

But it must be quite quite interesting when you actually show them the maths and you show them what's actually happening in their game and that they've got a complete they're they're viewing reality in a different way.

当你把这类信息展示给别人时，他们一般有什么反应？

What sort of reactions are you getting when you show people that information?

他们确实都很惊讶。

They're definitely just pretty surprised.

很多人根本没意识到，生活中自己的行为和牌桌上的表现是紧密相关的，所以这点让他们特别意外。

A lot of people don't correlate their behavior in life with how they play at the table, so that's pretty surprising to them.

前几天我刚和一个人做过一次对话，我说，我猜你在生活中应该挺内向、挺保守的，因为你明显有消极偏见。

Know, I I think I did a session with someone a few days ago, and I said, well, I bet you're probably pretty introverted and conservative in life just based upon, like you know, because I I see he has a negativity bias.

我提醒他，这种倾向很可能也影响了他平时的生活方式，他听了之后特别震惊，没想到这种联系这么明显。

And, you know, I pointed out that he probably lives his life that way as well, and he was pretty shocked that the transfer's over.

你知道吧。

You know?

我觉得人们对此认识得还不够。

I don't think people realize that enough.

大概人们平时太少反思，也太少去想这些事了吧？

I guess people don't reflect enough and think about that stuff enough?

是的。

Yeah.

说白了，我工作的核心就是帮人明白，扑克之外的生活经历如何影响你的牌风——你的性格特质，还有过去那些事。

I mean, it's literally the bulk of my work is literally that trying to help people understand that things from outside of poker are impacting your poker, your personality traits, things that have affected you in the past.

正因如此，你才会因为三张小牌就崩溃，才会在接近决赛桌时感到焦虑。

Those things are why you're tilted by the three bears, why you get anxious as you approach the final table.

是生活中的问题渗透进了你的游戏，而游戏又把这些性格特点放大并反射出来。

It's outside life issues coming into your game and then your game's just amplifying and then reflecting that personality trait.

对，我会跟人说，如果你打牌能完全不带偏见，那问题就简单了。很多人打了几千甚至上万小时，玩了八年，水平还是上不去，原因就在这儿。

Yeah, I tell people if you approach the game just completely without bias I mean, the reason why people don't get good is you know, if they if there's people who play tens of thousands of hours who've been playing for eight years, they're not that good.

你知道吧？

You know?

原因我觉得不是他们笨。

And the reason is, I think, is not because they're stupid.

只是他们不够客观。

It's just they're not objective.

他们没从牌桌上获得的信息里真正学到东西。

They don't learn from the information they're getting at the tables.

他们没好好反思。

They don't learn properly.

只看自己想看的。

They just see what they wanna see.

我打个比方。

And I use this analogy.

你听说过那个玩完美单挑限注德州扑克的机器人吗？

Have you heard of the bot that plays perfect heads up, limit, hold them?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yes.

它一开始从零开始，对扑克一无所知。

It started off from square one, not knowing anything about poker.

它自己一对一地玩，观察哪些打法有效，哪些无效。

It just played itself one on one and observed what worked and what didn't work.

它这么做完全是客观的，毕竟它是电脑程序，没有情绪。

And it did this completely objectively because it's a computer robot, you know, no emotion.

它能完全准确地从获取的信息中学习。

And it was just able to perfectly learn from the information that it gleaned.

我的意思是，我们当然做不到这样。

I mean, obviously, we can't do that.

但如果我们能更客观一些，在玩的时候和研究的时候就能学得更多。

But the more objective we could be, the more we could learn while we play, the more we could learn while we study.

因为就算在学习的时候，人们也往往只找自己想听的答案，把不想听的直接丢一边，或者刚拿到一点信息就以为够了，然后就停了。

Because even while you study, people are looking for the answers that they want and discarding the answers that they don't want sometimes, you know, or if they get one bit of information, they kind of just move on or whatever.

你能再详细说说，该怎么学习，多久学一次，还有你那些关于学习的想法吗？

Can you go into a little bit more depth on how to study and how often to study and all those sorts of, you know, ideas you have?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得学校、大学，还有主流观念里，对学习都有种固定的看法。

So I think school kind of school, college, and I don't know, all of the mainstream kind of has this idea about study.

结果很多牌手也觉得，除非你在复盘手牌记录，或者看教学视频，否则就不算真正在学习。

And, like, consequently, a lot of booger players have this idea that if you're not going through a hand history review, or if you're not watching a video, you aren't really studying.

好像只有这两种方式才算学习。

Like those are the only ways to study.

非得打开一场比赛，一局一局地分析，或者看视频才行。

Pull up a tournament, go through the hands, or watch video.

但实际上，学习的方式多得数不清。

And actually, the ways to study, I think, are actually infinite.

学习方式应该完全基于你的个人兴趣和独特能力。

And they should be entirely based upon your unique interests and your unique abilities.

如果你看过我指导学员的视频，我会用完全不同的方法指导两个人，即使他们学的是同一个主题，这取决于他们的性格、喜好和兴趣点。

If you watch coaching sessions with me, I can coach two people on the same exact topic and completely different ways just based upon their personality, what they like, what they don't like, what interests them.

但最后我们往往能得出相似的结论。

And we kind of come to similar conclusions.

比如菲尔·艾维和艾克·哈克顿，我想你在这档播客里请过他们。

Like, I mean, take Phil Ivey and I Ike Haxton, who I think you've had on this podcast.

两个人性格截然不同，却都是顶尖高手。

Two very different personality types, but they're both elite top players.

我猜他们思考牌局的方式也大不相同。

They think about the game, I assume, very differently than each other.

我本人并不认识他们，但我敢打赌肯定如此。

I mean, I don't know either of them personally, but I bet good money on that.

通往成功的路不止一条。

So there's more than one path to success.

通往巅峰的路不止一条。

There's more than one path to the top.

只要你能真正深入理解，不管是靠直觉、数学、逻辑，还是通过内省——如果你能在打牌时做到沉静、反思、客观、淡然，并且把这些修炼到极致，我相信一定会带来巨大的回报。

And you can gain a really deep understanding, whether it be intuitively, mathematically, logically, even introspectively, if you become really good at being meditative and reflective and objective and stoic while playing, you know, if you master that, that's going lead to huge results, in my opinion.

就像你把GTO练到极致，一样能带来巨大回报。

Just like if you master GTO, that's going lead to huge results.

或者你把直觉型的实战打法练到顶尖，又或者把HUD用得出神入化，只要做到极致，结果都会非常惊人。

Or if you master intuitive, field based game, or if you master using the HUD, you know, become the best at that, that's going to lead to huge results.

所以关键就在于找到属于你自己的优势领域，或者几个领域。

So it's really just finding your niche or niches.

对我来说，所有方面我都想掌握。

I mean, for me, it's everything.

我更喜欢这种全方位的打法。

I like the whole holistic approach.

但你要找到自己的专长，然后充分利用它，别盲目模仿别人，除非你真的特别想这么做。我接触过很多人，他们一看别人全是纯现金流的视频，满嘴GTO和数学，就觉得自己也得照着学，可他们根本就不是那种性格的人。

But finding your niche or niches and using those to your advantage, not trying to copy someone else necessarily, unless you just really want to, but not I talked to a lot of people who just, you know, they see straight cash only videos, and he's super mathy and talks GTO, and they're just not that type at all.

但他们总说，他赚钱多啊。

But, you know, they say, oh, he makes money.

我也想跟他一样打。

I wanna play like him.

可那根本不是他们真正感兴趣的方向。

But that's just not really their interest.

也不是他们擅长的方式。

It's not what they're good at.

结果呢，打起来特别没劲，最后也就失败了。

And consequently, it just becomes really boring and they kinda fail.

我倒觉得，其实有不少研究支持你这个观点。

I actually think, there's a good body of research that supports exactly what you're saying.

而且我觉得，很多扑克玩家都低估了找到自己专长对取得成功有多重要。

And I think poker players in general underestimate the importance of finding your niche as it relates to, you know, becoming really successful.

对。

Yeah.

人们根本不会去分析自己的学习过程。

People don't analyze their study sessions at all.

我是说，跟他们分析多表赛的方式比起来，根本没人认真复盘自己的学习。

Like, I mean, compared to the way they analyze their MTT sessions, nobody really analyzes their study sessions.

你知道吗？

You know what?

那次学习里，我最喜欢的是什么？

What did I like about that study session?

我不喜欢的又是什么？

What didn't I like?

是不是太难了？

Was that too hard?

是不是太简单了？

Was it too easy?

我有没有觉得自己的进步了？

Did I feel like I was getting somewhere?

你知道吗，能问的问题多得数不清。

You know, there's endless lists of questions.

我觉得这些特别重要。

I think that stuff's really important.

学会高效学习，对这项事业来说太关键了。

Learning how to study effectively is huge for the game.

那对于职业选手，你有建议每周该学多少小时吗？

And is it something where you have a recommendation of hours per week for a professional?

还是说，这得根据每个人的情况来定？

Or again, is this just case by case basis?

有些人三小时就够了，有些人则得花上十五个小时。

Some people can get away with the three hours, other people are going to be doing fifteen hours a week.

那你一般怎么给学生建议呢？

Like, how do you recommend to one of your students?

你觉得职业选手每周花多少时间学习才算合理？

What would be an amount of work you think is sort of acceptable for a professional?

我觉得这个问题特别有意思

I think this question's really interesting

因为你看不同运动，训练和实战的比例差别可大了

because if you look at all different sports, they have such different play to study ratios.

对

Mhmm.

比如综合格斗，可能要练好几个月，就为了比赛那十五分钟

So for example, MMA is like months and months of training for fifteen minutes.

你知道吧

You know?

足球呢，一周四到五天看录像学习

Football is you study four to five days.

四到五天训练，然后才打一场比赛

You practice four to five days, and you play one day a week.

你知道吧

You know?

篮球的话，大概算是中间吧，你知道的。

Basketball is somewhere you know?

我不太确定。

I don't know.

我想他们每周大概练三四天吧。

I guess you play three, four days a week.

棒球呢，差不多每周练五六天。

Baseball is, like, five, six days a week.

而且，我觉得他们需要的学习时间肯定少得多。

And, mean, I assume they have to study just way less.

你知道的。

You know?

我觉得这些差异的原因是，如果你每周练五天综合格斗，那根本不可能撑得住。

And I think the reason for those differences is that, you know, if you wanted to fight MMA five days a week, you know, it's just not physically possible.

是的。

Yeah.

橄榄球也是一样。

Same with football.

我觉得这些运动对大脑的负荷都有个上限。

So I think there's this mental limit on mental capacity for these sports.

扑克也是，纯粹从脑力角度来说，情况差不多。

And I think the same kind of holds true for poker just on a mental level.

这很大程度上取决于你的思维耐力有多强。

I think it really depends on your level of mental fitness.

所以我觉得这是个人差异，每个人都不一样。

So I think that's why it's a personal thing and varies.

那你是说，高额单挑赛对你的消耗，明显要比打多桌锦标赛大得多，对吧？

So so would you sort of say that the high stakes heads up games are something where, obviously, that's gonna be a lot tougher on you than perhaps playing the the software MTT fields.

多桌锦标赛的玩家，可能不需要像高额单挑玩家那样投入那么多学习。

MTT players may be able to get away with less study than somebody who's high stakes heads up.

这个观点真不错。

That's a really good point.

另外，我觉得竞争水平也是一个很重要的因素。

Also, I think the level of competition is a pretty good factor.

比如说，如果你打的是水平较低的MTT比赛，竞争就没那么激烈。

So for example, if you're playing soft MTTs, the level of competition isn't that high.

但如果你打的是高注额、一对一的Synagogue比赛，竞争就非常激烈了。

If you're playing high stakes, heads up Synagogue's level of competition is really high.

所以在低水平的MTT里，你原地踏步也没关系，反正你没在退步，大家基本都不怎么认真练。

So when you're standing still in soft MTTs, like, you're not learning anything, you know, standing at neutral, you're not really losing any ground.

大多数人根本就不会认真去提升。

Everyone most people don't really try anyways.

但如果你连续一周原地不动，只打一对一的赛艇赛，那你其实已经在落后了。

If you're standing still for a week playing heads up sit and go's, you've lost some ground.

你懂的。

You know?

每个人都在不断进步，不停地打，不停地学。

Everyone's getting better all the time and pounding in the volume and learning.

说来有趣，我

Ironically, I

觉得这可能给一些多桌锦标赛玩家带来了问题。

think this might be causing a problem for some MTT players.

你没意识到，虽然他们没掉队，也没造成经济损失，但只要别人不努力，而你愿意下功夫，你就更容易在竞争较弱的环境中脱颖而出。

Then you don't realize that although they're not losing ground, so it doesn't damage them financially, if no one else is putting in the hard work and you're the person who does, it allows you to gain ground much better in a softer field.

而在一对一的坐垫赛里，你不得不这么做；但在多桌锦标赛里，你并不被迫这么做，正因如此，你反而更值得花时间去请教练、做研究等等。

Whereas, you know, you're whereas you're forced to do it in heads up sit and goes, you're not forced to do it in MTTs, but that means potentially it could have even more value for you to get the coaching, to do the study, etcetera.

没错，这确实是个很好的观点。

Yeah, that's a really good point.

我觉得还有其他因素，比如你到底是不是个赢钱的玩家。

I think there's other variables as well, you know, how much you know, of how big of a winner you are.

如果你是个输钱的玩家，那光是打牌就在赔钱，而学习理论上反而能帮你赚钱。

If you're if you're a losing player, then playing is actually costing you money, you know, and studying theoretically makes you money.

所以你应该多花时间学习，少打牌。

So you should partake in a lot more studying than playing.

但如果你在一个竞争不激烈的领域里是大赢家，比如我因为某种原因只打一些小失误的MTT，那如果不投入足够的局数，我可能会输掉很多钱。

But if you're a big winner in a noncompetitive field, you know, if I'm a big winner and I'm just playing small to mistakes MTTs for some reason, and, you know, I may I lose a lot of money not putting in that volume.

这其实是要找到适合每个人的平衡点。

This is finding the balance for the individual.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，你有多需要钱也很重要。

And it's how much you need the money as well, I think, important.

所以有很多不同的因素和变量。

So a lot of different factors and variables.

但要给出一个更具体的建议，我觉得每周三小时根本不够。

But to give a more concrete answer, I would say that three hours a week is just nowhere near enough, I would say.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得很多人玩得太多了。

I think people play way too much.

我觉得人们花在学习上的时间实在太少了。

I think people study way too little.

而且我觉得人们真的需要多找人指导。

And I think people need to actually coach way more.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我觉得每天至少得花一小时，也就是每周七小时。

I think I feel like one hour a day has to be the minimum, like seven hours a week.

我实在没法想象，一个职业选手如果每周学得比这还少，还能保持水准。

I just can't imagine being a professional and doing less than that and wanting to stay current, still be good.

也许人们没意识到，学习和打出最佳状态之间有着密切的联系。

And perhaps people don't realize this is there's a huge link between study and playing your A game.

我曾经有一段时间，每周学习差不多十个小时，因为那会儿我一直在做教练。

Because I've had periods where I mean, I'd study basically ten hours a week because I was coaching all the time.

所以那时候我有好多不同的想法要琢磨。

So I had all these different ideas to work on.

所以我一直在和各种不同的选手一起研究，从多个角度思考这个游戏。

So I'm studying with all these different players and thinking about the game in all these different ways.

每次上场，我都特别期待，兴奋得很。

So every time I played, I was super excited to play.

我脑子里有好多新点子想试试，完全不是机械地应付了事。

I had all these ideas to try out, and I wasn't autopilot in any sense of the word.

每一个局面，我都有不同的思路要去琢磨。

Every, you know, every spot, I had different ideas to work on.

最近这两三个月，因为个人原因，我每周只教练两三个小时，自己一点都没花时间研究。

Recently, the past two, three months, just due to personal stuff, I've been coaching two, three hours a week, not putting in any study by myself.

现在一上场，我脑子里空空的，啥都想不出来。

And now when I play, I don't have really anything to think about.

就坐在那儿，特别无聊。

And I just sit there really bored.

只好去刷推特。

I go on Twitter.

我还刷Facebook、看YouTube。

I go on Facebook, YouTube.

我更容易感到烦躁了。

I get really frustrated more easily.

你懂的。

You know?

结果我就经历了一个月左右，或者六周的低谷期，这期间。

And, consequently, I'm on I was on, like, a one month downswing or six week downswing, which is

而且，做这些事的惩罚就是，达里尔，你得站罚站。

And also the naughty step for doing all of those things, Daryl.

这些行为是不允许的。

That's not allowed.

打球的时候，不准刷Twitter，也不准看YouTube。

No Twitter, no YouTube while you're playing.

对。

Yeah.

太糟糕了。

It's terrible.

但当你心神不集中时，大脑会本能地找点东西来填补空虚，这其实挺有意思的。

But isn't it interesting when your mind is unfocused, it seeks out things to fill up that void.

所以它自然而然就转向了推特、YouTube，或者别的什么。

So it automatically goes to the Twitter or the YouTube or whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实会发生。

That definitely happens.

如果你想好好玩游戏，我觉得你得好好规划一下时间。

So if you wanna play your a game, I think you have to study a lot, basically.

我觉得每周十个小时对大多数人来说就挺合适的。

I feel like ten hours a week is probably good for most people.

而且我觉得，每周玩五天、六天，甚至七天，对很多人来说其实并不理想。

And I think playing five, six days a week, seven days a week isn't optimal for a lot of people either.

是的。

Yeah.

我通常建议每周学习十个小时。

I mean, that's I usually recommend ten hours a week of study.

至于MTTs，有些人发现每周玩四天最划算——他们挑四个状态最好的日子全力投入，其余时间专心学习，这样赚的钱反而比连玩六七天却因疲劳导致状态下滑、学习中断、水平退步要多。

And I mean, MTTs, potentially even, you know, some people find four days a week the most profitable for MTTs because they play four really good days and then do a lot of study and that can actually make more money than playing the six or seven days where the burnout starts happening and the study stops and the game deteriorates.

是的，举个极端的例子，过去两年我更专注于教练工作和学习相关的一切。

Yeah, as as like a very extreme example, I know the past two years, I've been just more interested in coaching and learning about coaching and everything surrounding that.

所以我每周只玩一天，但学习十个小时。

So I played only one day a week, for example, and I studied ten hours a week.

我的游玩与学习时间比大致是一比一。

So my play to study ratio is like one to one.

过去两年左右，我赢了大约一半的局，整体投资回报率达到了百分之百。

And I had I won about 50% of my sessions for the past two years or so, and I had about a 100% ROI as a result.

我以前从来不是个稳定赢钱的玩家。

And I've never been a consistent player before.

我总是输掉六位数的钱，输给某些玩家。

I've always just been lose six figures when when six figures lose six figures when six figures to a player.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实取得过非常大的成绩。

I've just had huge results.

我不建议大多数人每周只玩一天。

I don't recommend the one day a week for most people.

根本行不通。

Just doesn't work.

不过呢。

But yeah.

这只是一个有趣的例子，说明你的投资回报率能有多高。

It was just an interesting example of how high your ROI could be.

你对现在正在举行的扑克世界系列赛有什么看法？大家现在都聚集在拉斯维加斯。

What what are your thoughts on you know, right now, the World Series of Poker is going on, and everybody's, you know, here in Vegas.

有两种不同的看法。

And there's two schools of thought.

埃利奥特和我都觉得，适当休息一下，保持状态和体力很重要。

And Elliot and I believe that, you know, you take some rest breaks and keep yourself sharp and fit and all this.

但也有人觉得，既然来了，就全力以赴，天天打个痛快。

And then other people believe come out here and go balls to the wall and just play, you know, everything every day.

你怎么看这个说法？

Do you have thoughts on that?

我的风格一向更偏向你那边。

I mean, my style is always towards your your end.

我觉得这个争论挺有意思，因为世界扑克系列赛不是每年都有的，赛事又多又精彩，但说实话， burnout 真的很糟糕。

I think it's an interesting debate because the World Series only comes around so often and there's so many good events and it's fun, But, you know, obviously, burning out really sucks.

关键还是看什么方式能持久。

I think it really depends on what's sustainable.

有些人能连续打很久也不会觉得累。

Some people can play a lot and not burn out for a while.