017 Chris Moneymaker – The Mindset Advantage Podcast

欢迎收听《心态优势》播客，我是德鲁博士。

Welcome to the Mindset Advantage podcast with Doctor.

特蕾莎·卡德纳和埃利奥特·罗。

Tricia Cardner and Elliot Roe.

特蕾莎，跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

So Tricia, tell us about yourself.

大家好，我是德鲁博士。

Hey everyone, I'm Doctor.

特蕾莎·卡德纳。

Tricia Cardner.

我写了《积极扑克》这本书，主要为扑克玩家以及其他追求卓越表现的人提供运动心理学和巅峰表现训练。

I'm the author of Positive Poker and I do sports psychology and peak performance training for poker players and other people who want exceptional results.

我是埃利奥特·罗，是一名催眠治疗师，专长于帮助扑克玩家、UFC选手和股票经纪人。

And I'm Elliot Rowe, I'm a hypnotherapist and I specialize in working with poker players, UFC fighters and stockbrokers.

这周特蕾莎，你有什么新鲜事跟大家分享吗？

And this week Tricia, what have you got for us news wise?

我跟你说，最近有一项研究刚发表在《健康心理学》期刊上。

Well, I'll tell you what, there has just been a study that was published and it came out in a journal called Health Psychology.

他们研究的是，我们应对压力的方式，到底是帮了我们还是害了我们。

And what they were looking at is, is the way we react to stress helpful or harmful to our health?

当然，我们知道如果特别焦虑、情绪失控，对身体是有害的。

And of course we know that if we get very upset and anxious, that's harmful to us.

但这项研究关注的是另一面：积极的情绪能不能给我们一些保护作用。

But this study was looking at the opposite side of it and seeing if positive emotions could provide some protection for us.

研究发现，那些在面对烦心事时还能保持冷静或乐观的人，发炎风险更低。

And basically what the research found is that people who remain calm and or cheerful in the face of irritations had lower risk of inflammation.

而长期发炎——在压力下会出现，打牌的人管这叫‘上头’——其实会引发严重的健康问题，比如癌症、心脏病、肥胖，还有其他一大堆麻烦。

And chronic inflammation, which can come to us for stress or in the poker world, we kind of know it as tilt, that actually can lead to real significant health problems like cancer, heart disease, obesity, and a lot of other just bad stuff.

所以关键不是你有多少压力，或者有多频繁‘上头’。

So basically it's not how much stress you have or how much tilt you have.

而是你选择怎么应对它。

It's kind of how you choose to react to it.

这将决定健康方面的后果。

That's going to determine the health consequences.

所以如果你在牌桌上情绪失控，我建议你尽量保持冷静，做几次深呼吸，学会让事情过去，别放在心上。

So if you are getting tilted at the table, I recommend you try to remain calm, do some deep centered breathing, and try to just let it roll off your back.

是的，在牌桌上越生气越没好处，对吧？

Yeah, there's no value in getting even more angry at the table, is there?

确实没什么好处。

No, there really isn't.

这周给大家带来一个小惊喜，我们请到了克里斯·蒙克马克做客节目，聊聊他在扑克生涯中的经历，以及他在心态方面的心得。

And a bit of a treat for everyone this week, we've got Chris Moneymaker coming on the show to talk about his life in poker and what he's found from the mindset side of the game.

那我们马上连线克里斯。

So let's give Chris a call.

克里斯，感谢你参加我们的节目。

So, Chris, thanks for coming on the show.

能不能先向我们的听众简单介绍一下你自己？

If you could just introduce yourself to our listeners.

当然。

Sure.

我叫克里斯·蒙尼凯尔。

My name's Chris Moneymaker.

我赢得了2003年的世界扑克系列赛主赛事冠军。

I won the two thousand three World Series of Poker Main Event.

目前我是扑克之星的签约职业选手，同时也是好莱坞扑克公开赛的大使。

I'm currently a Poker Stars team pro and ambassador for the Hollywood Poker Open.

我正准备去参加好莱坞扑克公开赛主赛事，今年夏天还会参加世界扑克系列赛。

And I'm getting ready to go out and play the Hollywood Poker Open Main Event and play the World Series here for the summer of twenty fifteen.

太好了。

Excellent.

你知道，我们的节目特别关注心态这个话题。

And as you know, our shows a lot about mindset.

在你的职业生涯中，你觉得心态对你的扑克水平有多大影响？

And how much do you feel that mindset has impacted you as a poker player over your career?

说实话，我觉得心态是我最大的短板。

Honestly, I think mindset's my biggest thing I have that holds me back.

当我状态最好的时候，我觉得自己完全不输任何顶尖选手，别人很难真正赢我。

I really feel like when I'm playing my A game, one of the top poker players out there, I don't really feel like other players beat me.

但很多时候，反而是我自己打败了自己。

I feel that I generally usually beat myself.

我总跟自己较劲，陷入心理博弈。

I get into leveling wars with myself.

我可能有点注意力缺陷的问题。

I probably have a little bit of an ADD issue.

所以我觉得，很多时候真正拖后腿的是我的脑子，尤其是到了下午，人一累，情况更糟。

So I honestly think that, you know, my mind is really what gets in the way a lot of times, especially later on in the day when I get tired.

心态容易波动，这事儿我一直在努力调整。

My mindset seems to waver and, you know, it's something I'm constantly working on.

你平时会做些什么，或者会建议玩家怎么做，来改善你刚才说的这些问题？

What kinds of things do you do or would you recommend players do in order to, you know, alleviate some of these leaks you're talking about?

我读了一本不错的书，叫《十个百分点的幸福》，作者是丹·哈里斯。

I read a good book, Ten Percent Happier by Dan Harris.

我脑子里总是乱糟糟的，尤其是输了一手牌或者被翻盘的时候，就会不停地跟自己较劲。

And I have a lot of things going on in my head where, you know, I'm always talking to myself if I make a bad play or if I take a bad beat.

我对自己的要求实在太严了。

I'm really difficult on myself.

我不太想说我会责怪自己，但确实总想马上把输掉的筹码赢回来，急着想恢复状态，其实没必要这么急。

I I don't wanna say I beat myself up, but I try to get the chips back quickly and try to recover quicker than I need to.

所以我现在开始试着做冥想。

So basically, what I've started doing is just doing some meditation.

不过我其实不太擅长冥想。

And I'm not really good at meditation.

让我一坐就是三十分钟冥想，我做不到，但我可以听听舒缓的音乐，安静地放松个五到十分钟。

Can't sit there and do a thirty minute meditation period, but I can sit there and listen to some calming music and relax for five or ten minutes.

这样能让我稍微平静下来。

And it just puts me at ease a little bit.

我找过心理教练。

I've gone through a mental coach.

我和埃利奥特做过一次咨询。

I've done a session with Elliot.

我试过很多不同的方法。

I've tried a lot of different things.

我以前在手腕上戴橡皮筋，每冒出一个负面想法就弹一下。

I would wear a rubber band on my wrist and snap it every time a negative thought entered my mind.

你也知道，我练过瑜伽。

You know, I've done yoga.

为了能随时发挥出最佳状态，我试过各种办法。

I've done a lot of different things to try and be where I'm playing my best at all times.

我都快四十了，才明白，时刻保持最佳状态根本不可能。

You know, I'm approaching 40 years old and I realized that playing my best at all times is just not an option.

所以，大概是因为玩得太久了吧，我现在学会对自己宽容一点了。

So I've I've cut myself some slack now through, I guess, playing this game long enough.

我意识到，我不可能每天花十四个小时打游戏了。

I realized I'm not gonna be playing my a game for fourteen hours a day.

我得把身体练好，因为通常玩八个小时后我就累了。

One thing I do need to do is get into better shape because I generally get tired after about eight hours of play.

我跟踪过自己的胜率，玩到八个小时左右，胜率就会明显下滑。

I've done tracking of my win rates, and after about eight hours, my win rate falls drastically.

一部分原因是年纪大了，但最主要还是因为我体能差，吃得不健康，不够自律。

Part of it is a little bit me getting up in age, but the biggest thing is probably just me being out of shape and not eating the right foods and being healthy.

这会影响你的精神状态。

And that affects your mental status.

你的身体和大脑其实是一整套系统，互相影响。

And your whole thing sort of works as one machine.

我平时没好好照顾身体。

I'm not taking care of the physical part of it.

所以精神上也会受影响。

So it affects me mentally.

这可能是我们从这方面听到过最坦诚的回答了。显然，你知道身体状态对牌桌上的表现影响很大。

That's probably the most honest answer we've ever had from anyone on the From that side, obviously you know that physical is a big part of how you're going to be playing at the table.

你在这方面做出过重大改变吗？还是说你一直挺难坚持的？

Have you made any major changes there or is it something that you're struggling with?

我确实很难坚持。

I'm struggling with it.

我试过好几种饮食方案。

I've tried several different diets.

去年我试过一种健康产品，刚开始第一周还挺顺利的。

Last year I tried to do a health product and I started it and everything was going fine for the first week.

但后来我一换地方，就越来越难维持，快递也老是送不到我新的住处。

And then I would move locations and it just got more and more difficult to keep up with the health products and to keep the shipments coming to what location.

我总是到处跑。

I'm always on the move.

我在密歇根住一周，下一周就跑去俄亥俄。

I'm home one week in Michigan, one week in Ohio the next.

我的行程太频繁了，实在很难坚持。

And it's just really difficult for me with my travel schedule.

说白了，这可能只是个借口，但说到身体健康，我确实挺懒的。

I mean, it's more of an excuse, but I'm I'm a very lazy person when it comes to my physical health.

结果总是忍不住喝可乐、激浪，吃芝士汉堡，而不是多喝水、好好照顾自己。

And I just fall back into Cokes and Mountain Dews and eating cheeseburgers instead of drinking water and doing the right thing.

这对我来说确实是个大难题。

So it's definitely a struggle for me.

我就爱好好吃顿饭。

I like to eat my food.

我出门旅行时，会把跑鞋带上。

I, you know, when I go on the road, I pack my running shoes.

运动服也一起装着。

I pack my workout clothes.

但说实话，要是没有我老婆陪着我、鼓励我，我宁可多睡会儿，直接等到比赛时间再起床，也不愿提前两小时爬起来跑步锻炼。

But honestly, without my wife there to do it with me and to support me, I find that it's just easier to hit the snooze button and wake up at tournament time than to get up that two hours earlier to go do my jog and do the exercise that I need to do.

所以，确实，这一直是我很大的困扰。

So, yeah, it's definitely a constant struggle for me.

我真希望可以说我已经解决了这个问题，但其实并没有。

I wish I could say that I've got it figured out, but I don't.

我的意思是，我知道自己该怎么做。

I mean, I know what I'm supposed to be doing.

我有个计划，比如打完世界大赛后该怎么做，但真正执行起来，对我来说一直是个大难题。

I've got my game plan to where, when I go after the World Series, I know what I'm supposed to do, but doing it has seemed to have been a very big problem for me actually getting it done.

我觉得你所说的，每个听的人应该都能感同身受，谁没在饮食和锻炼上挣扎过呢？

I think what you're saying, everybody who's listening can probably relate to this because who hasn't had problem with diet and exercise?

这真的特别难。

And it can be so challenging.

就像你说的，明明知道该做什么，就是做不到。

Just like you said, you know what to do, but you don't do it.

所以我敢说，每个人都能深深理解你现在的处境。

So I bet everybody can just really relate to what you're saying.

我想稍微换个话题。

I kind of wanna shift gears just a little bit.

我一直想问问你，关于你对扑克热潮所负有的责任，心理上是什么感受？

I always wanted to ask you about the psychology of being responsible for the poker boom.

你处在这么独特的地位，甚至人们都提到了‘莫斯姆效应’。

You're like in such a unique position because you kind of set off and people even talk about the Moneymaker Effect.

那么，承担这份责任，你内心经历了怎样的心理变化？

So what has been just kind of the psychology of being responsible for that?

这真的挺奇怪的。

It's really weird.

在心理上，我大概经历了三个不同的阶段。

Probably went through like three different transformations with that mentally.

一开始，这件事其实对我影响不大。

I mean, in the very beginning, it didn't really affect me that much.

首先，我根本没想到扑克热潮会发展得这么快。

First of all, I didn't know the poker boom was gonna explode the way it did.

扑克对我来说一直就是这样，因为我没经历过扑克热潮之前的时代。

Poker sort of always been this way for me because I wasn't around before this poker boom.

所以我一直以为，扑克本来就是现在这样，人人都在玩。

So I just, you know, thought poker was always this way that everybody was playing.

它一直都是个大事件。

It was always just a big deal.

但说实话，早期我根本没感到什么压力，反而对这游戏变得懈怠了。

But to be honest, like, I didn't feel the pressure much early on, and I really got complacent with the game.

我以为自己已经把这游戏摸透了。

I thought I had the game figured out.

说白了，我当时只是个业余玩家，却赢下了这么大的比赛。

I mean, I was just an amateur, and I won this big tournament.

我第三次参赛，就拿了第二名。

The third term I play, I get second place.

我真觉得自个儿天生就擅长这游戏，根本没必要专门去研究。

I just I really just felt like I just sort of had a natural knack for the game, and I didn't really need to study the game.

我觉得没必要提升，反正就是这么回事。

I didn't need to improve, yada yada, this and that.

但过了一阵子，大概一两年后，成绩就不像我刚打职业那一年半那么好了——那时候我赢了主赛事。

But then after a while, after about probably a a year or two, the results were not doing what, you know, during the first year and a half of me playing sort of professionally, I won the main event.

我在WPT拿了第二，PLO赛事也进了决赛桌。

I got second at WPT, final table at a PLO event.

还打了几次深进，结果最后运气特别差。

Made another couple of deep runs where I got really unlucky late.

之前成绩一直不错，可突然就全停了。

So I was having all these good results and then they just sort of stopped.

我归咎于运气不好，也就听之任之，没怎么深想。

And I blamed a lot of it on bad luck and, you know, just let it go and didn't really think about it.

但再过了三四年，到了某个时候，你就不能再把一切推给运气了，你明显是漏掉了什么。

But then after, you know, probably about three years, four years of like, you know, at a certain point you got to quit saying it's luck and, know, you're just missing something.

于是我开始对自己的打法产生怀疑。

So I started getting self conscious of my plays.

我不想过桌面上做些蠢事。

I didn't want to, you know, do something stupid on the table.

在搬去奥兰多之前，每次要下大注前，我总在想别人会怎么看待我。

My mind went to, before I moved to Orlando, before I made a big call, I wanted to think what would people think.

我是不是看起来像个傻子？

Am I playing like an idiot?

如果我在电视转播的牌桌上，我绝对不想犯错。

If I was on the TV table, I didn't want to make mistakes.

这种情况持续了一段时间。

So that went on for a while.

后来我重新开始研究牌局，慢慢对这方面更自在了。

Then I basically just started studying the game again and get more comfortable with that side of it.

但心理上，说实话，我就是没那么渴望，也没那么敏锐，你想怎么说都行。

But still mentally, I mean, you know, I just wasn't as hungry or sharp or whatever you want to put it.

我甚至不知道该怎么回答这个问题，因为很久以来，我都没那种强烈的欲望了。

I don't even know the best way to even answer the question because I just never felt that hunger for the longest time.

直到今天，我坐下来打牌，依然觉得特别享受。

To this day, you know, when I sit down, I still enjoy playing poker.

说实话，我从来没觉得这事儿腻了。

You know, I don't I'm never burnt out from it.

但每当我坐下来打牌，过一段时间，脑子就容易走神，想别的事。

But when I sit down and play, I know after a certain period of time, my brain's gonna wander and do something else.

有一阵子，我特别在意自己的一举一动，总担心别人怎么看我。

So I went through a period to where, you know, I was really conscious of what I was doing and being concerned about what people thought.

现在嘛，别人怎么想我根本不在乎了，因为我知道，只要我发挥出最佳水平，我就是个不错的牌手。

To now, I don't really care what people think because I know when I'm playing my A game, I'm confident I'm a good player.

我花了不少时间去钻研这个游戏。

I've put the time in to learn the game.

所以呢，要是真打了个特别差的牌，我也不会在意了——这其实挺好的，对吧。

So you know that side of it like if I make it a really bad play it doesn't bother me anymore which is a good thing obviously.

但现在我比以前大了十二三岁，身体早就跟不上以前的状态了。

But now it's just you know I'm twelve years older, thirteen years older and my body just does not react to the way it used to do.

我是有睡眠呼吸暂停的问题。

I mean, I have sleep apnea.

我不用呼吸机，所以晚上睡得不太好。

I don't use my CPAP machine, so I don't sleep that well at night.

再加上我不运动，吃得也不健康。

And then I don't exercise and eat poorly.

把这些因素加在一起，根本不像个运动员。现在职业扑克圈里，顶尖选手大多都有随行教练，或者在吃补剂、做各种健康管理。

So you add all that stuff up, it doesn't really equate to an athlete, which if you look at the tournament circuit in today's world, I mean, most of the top players have trainers that travel with them or, you know, they're juicing and doing all this other health stuff.

所以归根结底，我意识到自己在精神上容易疲惫，却没有做该做的事来改善这一点。

So it just comes down to, you know, I realize that mentally, I get tired and I'm not doing what I need to do to improve on that.

所以打现金桌的时候，撑到八个小时我就收手回家了。

So, you know, when I play cash games, I just after eight hours, I just shut it up and go home.

但打锦标赛就不行，没法这么干。

But tournaments, you can't do that.

你刚才说那种动力没以前那么强了，这挺有意思的。

It's quite interesting that you said that drive isn't there in quite the same way.

而且说实话，我接触过很多供应商，他们的梦想就是赢得世界系列赛主赛事，而那恰恰是你职业生涯的起点。

And, I mean, when I speak a lot of suppliers, their dream is to win the World Series main event, and that's literally where your career started.

所以你觉得这会不会是其中一个原因？

So do you think that might play a role in this?

你几乎在职业生涯一开始就已经登顶了，对你来说，可能再也没有像其他选手那样强烈的终极目标了。

The fact that you've reached that pinnacle on almost day one of your career, and there's not really the same huge goal for you that there are there is for almost every other player out there.

是的。

Yeah.

说起来挺奇怪的。

It's sort of weird.

我的意思是，我当然还想再赢一次。

I mean, obviously, I wanna do it again.

每年到了这个时候，我都会感到特别兴奋。

Every year it comes around, you know, I get excited for this time of year.

但我已经拿过一次了，所以我不会像其他人那样拼命苦干。

But I have one at once, and, you know, I I don't grind like the normal guys do.

我并不是一直参加各种赛事。

I don't play the circuit all the time.

我有一些代言合同在手上。

I've got, you know, endorsement deals.

我还有其他事情在忙。

I've got other things going on.

很多时候，我花更多时间陪家人，而不是打牌。

I spend time with my family more than I play a lot of times.

在家的时候，我就陪三个孩子待在一起。

When I'm at home, I hang out with my three kids.

在很多方面，我过着两种不同的生活。

I live a dual life in a lot of ways.

在家的时候，我一点都不碰扑克。

When I'm at home, I don't play any poker.

一出门，我就立刻切换到扑克模式。

I go on the road and all of a sudden switch into poker mode.

我已经在家待了三周了。

I've been home for three weeks.

我晚上十点睡觉，早上七点起床，送孩子们上学，或者白天做些别的事。

I go to bed at 10:00 at night, get up at 07:00 in the morning, get the kids to school, or we do whatever we do during the day.

除了生意上的事，我几乎从不想到扑克。

Poker never really enters my mind other than the business side of it.

然后某天突然我就要登机，接着作息就变成凌晨四点睡觉、早上十一点起床。

Then all of sudden, a tomorrow I'll get on a plane and immediately I'll be going to bed at 4AM and getting up at eleven in the morning.

这样反复切换生活方式，真的特别耗人。

It's really taxing to switch back and forth doing that on a consistent basis.

我大概已经习惯了，但心里清楚，我并没有在为发挥最佳状态做准备。

I kind of got used to it, I guess, but it's still, I just know mentally I'm not preparing myself to be the best I can be.

因为你赢过主赛事，会不会感受到很大的外界压力？

Do you experience a lot of pressure just because you have won the main event?

我不是说你内心的压力，而是来自别人对你的期待。

So I don't mean internal pressure, but I external pressure from people just expecting something out of you.

对我而言，好处是长期以来，大家都觉得我不过是运气好，水平差得很。

Well, the good thing is for me, everybody for the longest time thought I was just a fluke and thought I was terrible.

这反而帮了我。

So that helped.

现在呢，像那些跟我打过牌的人，都会说：嘿，你没我想的那么差嘛。

And now, I mean, people, people I've played with like, man, you're not as bad as I thought you were.

你其实是个挺厉害的玩家，但你知道，我不希望他们这么想。

You're actually a really good player, but you know, I don't want to feed that.

我反而希望别人觉得我菜。

I want people to think I'm bad.

别人觉得你水平差，其实对你更有利。

It's actually better when people think that you're a bad player.

我以前也经历过一段时期，特别不想让人觉得我菜，但现在呢，反正别人觉得我差，我就当是好事。

You know, I went through a phase where I didn't want anybody to think I was bad, but now, you know, embrace the fact that if someone thinks I'm bad, that's good.

这对生意有好处。

That's good for business.

我不希望别人觉得我是个厉害的玩家。

I I don't want people to think that I'm a good player.

只要我能靠这行赚钱，而且玩得开心，那就够了。

You know, as long as I continue to make money at the game, I continue to enjoy the game.

每次坐到牌桌前，我总觉得得给大伙儿逗乐子。

You know, I always feel like whenever I sit down at a table, I'm trying to entertain the table in a sense.

我想和大家玩得开心，但我也确实是来赢钱的。

I'm trying to have a good time with them, but I'm also there to win money.

我打现金局的时候，表现通常都不错。

And usually when I play cash games, I do quite well.

锦标赛嘛，我往往能长时间保持高水平发挥。

Tournaments, you know, I play very well for a long period of time.

我是HBO的代言人。

I mean, I'm the ambassador for the HBO.

我觉得我每场比赛都能把筹码堆起来。

I think I run up a stack every single event.

我进了最后桌。

I make the final table.

我记得我进过十二次最后桌，但只赢了两次。

I think I've made 12 final tables, but I've only won two of them.

所以，说到底，我就是差那么一口气，没法把比赛拿下。

So, you know, I'm just having a problem finishing them off at the end.

不过总的来说，我对自己的表现还挺满意的，毕竟我们一直玩到凌晨两点，到十一点的时候，眼睛都快睁不开了。

But, you know, overall, I'm pretty happy with my, with my play considering the fact that, you know, we played till 2AM and by the time 11:00 rolls around, can barely keep my eyes open anymore.

所以我现在在学着晚点起床，尤其是第一天，选晚点注册，学学菲尔·赫尔穆特，尽量把每天的时长缩短一点。

So I'm trying to learn to wake up a little bit later, especially on day one, late register, do the Phil Hellmuth, and, you know, try to cut my days a little bit shorter.

而且你本身名气这么大，大家都知道你。

And with the sort of the obviously, you're such a well known name.

你觉得别人跟你玩的时候，打法会不一样吗？

Do you feel that people play differently against you?

你有没有觉得，大家特别想赢你，所以会用跟对付别人不一样的牌型来打你？

You know, do you think people are just so desperate to get your scalp that they'll open with different hands, they'll play hands differently perhaps than they would play another player at the table?

以前确实经常这样。

It used to be that way a ton.

我的意思是，大家对我的态度特别两极。

I mean, people played really polarized against me.

要么怕我，要么就刻意找我打牌。

They either were afraid of me, or they went out of their way to play pots with me.

现在还能看到一些痕迹，但我觉得牌局已经变了。以前，能跟电视上见过的人玩牌，这事儿挺稀奇的，可我上电视都十二年了。

And you still see it to some extent, but I think the game's evolved to a point now to where, you know, back in the day, was just something very unique to play with someone you see on TV, but it's been on TV now for twelve years.

现在来打牌的，尤其是年轻一代，他们就是为了钱。

The guys that come up and play now, especially the younger guys, they're there for the money.

他们根本不在乎什么故事。

They're not really there for the story.

那些想跟我较劲的，反而是你想不到的人——四十多岁、四十五六岁的，那些原本只是在家看电视、后来才开始玩牌的业余玩家。

You know, the people that are trying to outplay me are the people that you wouldn't expect, the 40 year olds, the 45 year olds, the armchair guys that, you know, saw me on TV and started.

那些年轻选手，没人真想跟我斗智斗勇。

All the young guys, none of them really try to outplay me.

我觉得吧，我是说，他们大多数人都说，你知道，你赢的时候我才十一岁。

I don't feel like, I mean, most of them are saying, you know, I was 11 years old when you won.

在电视上看你比赛挺酷的，但你知道，我是来赢钱的。

It was cool watching you on TV, but you know, I'm here to win money.

所以整整十年左右，感觉大家都在针对我。

So for literally about ten years, it seemed like everybody's trying to make plays at me.

我现在还是会被针对，你知道，我依然会轻率地跟注到底，因为大家还是喜欢针对我。

And I still get called, you know, I still call down light because people still do make plays at me.

我的意思是，比例确实比其他人高，但我觉得大家现在不像以前那样刻意针对我了。

I mean, in a higher proportion than other people, but I don't think people go out of their way as much as they used to.

这部分是因为牌局本身已经进化了。

Part of that is just because the game's evolved.

另一部分原因是，时间过去了，大家已经习惯了和电视上的那些选手一起打牌，感觉没那么特别了。我记得以前跟一个叫杰克的人打牌，具体姓什么我记不清了，他好像是八四年拿了世界扑克系列赛冠军。

The other part of it is, you know, time has passed and, you know, people got to play with a bunch of people off TV and it's not as much of a, you know, I remember playing with Jack something or other, can't remember his last name, he won the World Series in like 'eighty four.

那时候我觉得能跟世界扑克系列赛冠军一起打牌，简直是世界上最酷的事。

I thought it was the coolest thing in the world, playing with the World Series of Poker Champion.

这还是我赢得主赛事之前的事。

This is before I won the main event.

我觉得他简直不像是凡人。

You know, I thought he was otherworldly.

那时候我刚接触扑克，总觉得世界冠军超凡脱俗，能看透人心，是史上最厉害的玩家。

And that's the way, you know, I sort of grew into poker thinking, you know, world champions were, like, superhuman, could read your soul, and the were the best players ever.

现在世界系列赛好像没那么耀眼了，参赛人数太多，有些业余选手也能一路杀进深轮，就像我一样。

And you know, now the World Series has sort of lost its luster a little bit maybe with these huge fields and some of the amateurs, you know, making deep runs like myself.

我觉得它现在没以前那么有分量了，在牌桌上也不再那么受重视。

I mean, I just don't think that it carries what it used to carry, don't think in the game.

是啊，扑克这十几年发展得太快了，就像你说的。

Yeah, poker, it has evolved so quickly, just in the last, like you said, twelve years.

跟你赢得主赛事那会儿比，简直是天壤之别。

I mean, it's night and day different from what it was when you won the main event.

没错，变化真的太大了。

Oh yeah, it's amazing how different it is.

我本来想问你个问题。

I was gonna ask you a question.

我知道你在乔纳森·利特尔的《无限制德州扑克精通》里写了一章，讲的是低买入锦标赛的策略。

I know you have a chapter in Jonathan Little's excelling at no limit hold them on the lower buy in tournament strategies.

能聊聊是什么让你决定参与这本书吗？顺便说说你那章主要讲了什么？

Do you wanna talk for a minute about just what inspired you to get involved with that and a little bit about what your chapter's about?

当然可以。

Sure.

我其实早在2004年就写过一本书。

Well, I wrote a book back in 2004.

那本是自传，找了个代笔。

It was just my autobiography and I had a ghost writer.

那次经历之后，我就发誓再也不写书了。

After that experience, I said I would never write a book again.

我上学时英语根本不行。

I was never an English person in school.

我以前更擅长数学和理科。

I was more of a math and science guy.

写那本书对我来说真是特别煎熬。

So writing that book was just painstaking for me.

所以乔纳森·利特尔来找我写一章时，我马上就说，我没什么兴趣。

So Jonathan Little approached me about writing a chapter and I immediately said, you know, I'm not really interested.

五年前，我根本不可能会写这一章。

And I never would have wrote the chapter, you know, five years ago.

但经过几天考虑，我回了他，说我对写一篇关于低注额扑克锦标赛的内容挺感兴趣的。

But after, you know, a couple days of thought, I wrote them back and said, Yeah, I'd be interested in writing something on low limit poker tournaments.

我真的觉得自己在这一块儿下过不少功夫。

I really felt like, you know, I'd worked really hard on that part of my game.

作为HBO的代言人，我打过很多这类比赛。

Being the ambassador for the HBO, I'd played a lot of those events.

说实话，我可不像其他职业选手那样经常去打一万块的赛事。

You know, I don't go around playing as many 10 Ks as most of the other pros.

我的平均入场费大概是1500到2000美元，所以我感觉特别适合写这个主题。

I mean, my average buy in is probably $1,500 to $2,000 So I just felt like I was really suited.

我了解这些玩家是怎么打的。

I know how those players play.

我觉得自己特别有资格分析一万块和一千五比赛之间的区别。

I felt like I was just really suited to comment on the differences between a $10,000 player and a $1,500 player.

世界上没几个冠军会去本地赌场打日常赛事。

You know, there's not many world champions that'll go and play their daily tournament at at a local casino.

但我做过。

I've done that.

我喜欢玩扑克。

I enjoyed playing the game of poker.

我喜欢和人一起打牌。

I enjoyed playing with people.

我就是享受这种社交氛围，很多人反而忽略了这一点。

I I I just enjoyed the social aspect of it, which a lot of people miss out on.

但这么做让我清楚看到不同水平玩家之间的差异，以及他们打法上的区别。

But in doing that, I just see the different skill levels and how diff the different levels play.

所以我能评论从家常牌局、本地赌场的日常赛事，一直到主赛事的所有层级玩家。

So I felt like I was able to comment on all the different levels of players all the way from your home game slash, you know, daily tournament at your casino all the way through up till to the main event.

你几乎从没见过主赛事的玩家去打60美元的赛事，也从没见过打60美元的玩家去打一万美金的比赛。

I mean, you don't really ever see a main event player go and play a $60 tournament, and you don't see a $60 tournament go play a 10 k.

这种情况很少发生。

It just doesn't happen that often.

唯一的情况就是有人通过卫星赛晋级，然后冒险试一把。

And the only time that ever happens is when someone satellites in and they take a shot.

但他们还是会按打60美元赛事的方式去玩。

But they're still gonna play the way they played the $60 tournament.

不过，长期打一万美金比赛的人，和长期打60或100美元赛事的人，差距是显而易见的。

So, but there's a huge difference, obviously, between someone that consistently plays a 10 k versus someone that consistently plays a $60 or a $100 tournament.

他们的思维方式完全不同。

They they think differently.

他们的打法完全不同。

They play differently.

所以我专门分析了其中的思维差异——比如，一个打一万美元赛事的玩家如果下来打一百美元的赛事，他用的策略根本行不通，反过来也一样。

So I just delve into the thought processes as in why if you play, if a $10,000 tournament player comes down and plays a $100 buy in, the strategies he's using are not going to be effective and vice versa.

我会逐一剖析不同层级的思路，说明手牌怎么打、玩家的思维方式如何因投入金额不同而天差地别。

And I just sort of go into different pans and explain what the thought processes are and how hands are played out differently and how just the thought processes of each player is so different amongst the different levels of buy ins.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

尤其是现在，我正坐在拉斯维加斯，赶上世界扑克系列赛，各种级别都能看到。

Especially right now, I'm sitting out here in Las Vegas during the World Series of Poker and you do have the full range.

从每晚的小额赛事、深筹码的几百美元比赛，一直到五万美元的高额赛事，应有尽有。

People can play the little nightly or the deep stacks, which are a couple $100 buy in all the way up to what, dollars 50,000 buy in.

这里确实适合各种玩家，但关于低额赛事的正确策略，相关讨论却少得可怜。

So you've really got something for everyone here, but there is not as much written about those lower buy ins and the proper strategy.

所以我特别高兴看到你的这一章。

So I was really glad to see your chapter.

是的，实际上我书里的第一段就是说，现在市面上所有的书都针对一万美元的赛事，都是那些大牌作者写的，但全都是冲着高注额去的。

Yeah, and actually, think that's my first paragraph is, all the books today are geared towards $10,000 buy ins or big, you know, they're all written by all these famous guys that you know, but they're all geared towards 10 ks buy ins.

全都瞄准了高额赛事。

They're all geared towards the big term.

根本没人真这么玩。

It's that no one really plays.

说实话，我写这一章的时候，根本不知道乔纳森·利特尔出过关于低注额的书。

I mean, honestly, like when I wrote the chapter, didn't even know Jonathan Little had a lower buying book.

我觉得乔纳森·利特尔好像写过一些关于低注额的内容。

I think Jonathan Little wrote something about lower buy ins.

后来我仔细看了他做的所有研究，才了解到这一点。

And I found that out actually later looking at all the work he's done.

但他确实是少数几个写过低级别锦标赛内容的人，至少我之前没怎么见过。

But he, you know, he's one of the very few that's written on low level tournaments that I've been aware of.

所以这个话题被讨论得远远不够，你看看市面上那么多书，全在讲一万美元的赛事、顶级高额玩家，可那些打法根本没法用在低注额比赛中。

So the topic is not covered near as much as for say like, you know, you see so many books or they're all written about $10,000 buy ins and all these super high rollers and the plays just don't translate to the lower levels.

我是说，在一千美元的赛事里，根本看不到四注。

I mean, never see four betting in a $1,000 buying event.

这都是地区性的比赛。

It's regional event.

根本没人会四注。

You just don't see four bets.

在一万美金的赛事里，几乎每两手就能看到一次四注。

In a $10,000 buying event, you're going to see a four bet every other hand.

打法完全是两码事。

It's a totally different way to play.

而且我觉得，今年的巨无霸赛事让这两种玩法更接近了，因为我接触过不少职业选手，他们对比赛中看到的打法都感到震惊。听说有将近80%的参赛者之前根本没打过手链赛。

And, I mean, I think this year with the Colossus, that's probably brought the two sides of the game closer together because and it's certainly I spoke to a lot of pros who were shocked by the different type of play they saw because I think I think I heard that something like 80% of the people in the Colossus had never played a bracelet event before.

所以，这场两万五千人参与的赛事，把这两个世界意外地融合在了一起。

So it sort of mixed these two worlds in in one twenty five thousand person event.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，两万五千人每人掏出五百块，这阵势可不小。

I mean, you know, you're getting 25,000 people putting up $500.

来了很多业余玩家，这些业余玩家真能把职业选手搞蒙了。

You're getting a lot of those amateur players, and those amateur players are gonna really confuse a lot of the pros.

你要是平时跟那些打两千、三千、五千美金买入赛的职业选手混，突然碰到个只在家跟朋友玩的，你肯定觉得这人傻得不行。

I mean, if you've been playing with pros that are playing 2,000, 3,000, $5,000 buying events, and you play with a guy who's been playing with his friends in his home game, you're going think the guy's an idiot.

但反过来，你出的招儿，人家也觉得你是个傻子。

But at the same time, you're going to make the plays and he's going think you're an idiot.

说白了，咱俩根本不在一个频道上。

Mean, you're just on different wavelengths.

克里斯，这么多年打比赛，你见过最离谱的桌边行为是什么？

And, all those years in all of those tournaments, Chris, what's the sort of craziest behavior you've seen at the table?

有没有人当场彻底炸毛，让你印象特别深？

Is there anything that really stands out as someone really having just an absolute blow up at the table?

菲尔·赫尔穆特出名的就是爱发火，我见得最多的也就是他了。至于别的，几年前格雷格·雷默还撕过牌呢。

I mean, Phil Hellmuth is obviously famous for his blow ups, and he's probably the one I've seen, you know, most of the time, you know, other than people getting upset, you know, just random Greg Raymer ripped some cards a couple years ago.

现在大部分比赛里，除了像世界系列赛这种压力特别大的赛事，其他比赛里大家基本都能保持冷静。

For the most part in today's game, with the exception of, like, during the World Series when it's such so much pressure in that tournament, most other tournaments that you go around, everybody pretty much handles themselves pretty well.

你很少再看到以前那种情绪爆发的场面了。

You don't see the blowups that you once did.

我觉得可能是因为大家对这些事越来越麻木了，游戏里原本的激情也在减弱。

I think some of the passions out of the game maybe are people are desensitized to it a little bit more now.

人们还是会状态失常。

People still go on tilt.

还是会感到沮丧。

They still get frustrated.

但说实话，我一时也找不到合适的词来形容。

But, you know, I think there was just more I don't I don't know the right word.

几年前用‘激情’这个词更贴切，那时候人们输了一手牌或者遇到倒霉事，真的会特别投入、特别激动。

Passion is what I would use in a couple years ago where people got more invested in the game when they took a bad beat or when something bad happened.

世界系列赛上你还能看到这种情绪，因为很多人是通过卫星赛晋级的，这可能是他们一生唯一一次打主赛事，一旦输掉关键手，情绪就压不住了。

And you see it there in the World Series because you'll see these, you know, people satellite in and this is their one time they get to play the main event and for them to take a bad beat, they get emotional.

但如果你去巴塞罗那参加EPT十万美金赛事，有人拿了坏牌，他们还是会跟你握手，然后转身离开，你根本看不出来他们刚输得有多惨。

But if you go to Barcelona for the ten ks EPT and someone takes a bad beat, you know, they'll shake your hand and walk out the door and you wouldn't even know they even had a bad beat.

全年大部分时候都是这样。

And that's what most of the year it's like.

你参加任何地区性赛事，大家都会遇到坏牌。

I mean, you play any of the regional events, you know, people take bad beats.

但他们只是笑笑，接着继续玩。

They just smile about it and move on.

你打其他大多数十万美金赛事时，人们似乎没那么投入。

You play, you know, most of the other ten ks events, people just don't seem to be as invested.

他们也不会那么容易发火。

They don't get as frustrated.

你几乎看不到那种激情，除非是在巴西，或许还能看到一点。

You don't see the, the passion except for what maybe in Brazil, you'll see it.

但除了巴西，你真的很少见到这种情绪外露的情况。

But, outside of Brazil, you really don't see it that often.

还有那个局域网赛事，这确实是仅有的两次，我能亲眼看到玩家们在牌桌上如此投入、情绪饱满。

That and the LAN event, that's really the only two times I ever go and see people just, you know, showing a lot of emotion and a lot of passion on the table.

你觉得这种氛围真的会让游戏变得更好吗？

Do you think that actually improves the game?

去巴西参加比赛，看到大家这么有激情，是让比赛更有趣，还是反而让人觉得烦躁，因为有些人根本没法好好处理输牌？

So going and playing a tournament in Brazil and seeing that passion, does that make it more fun, or is it quite frustrating and annoying seeing people not dealing with their beats effectively?

哦，不会，我觉得这样反而更有趣。

Oh, no, I think it's much more enjoyable.

当人们真心热爱这个游戏、在乎输赢的时候，我觉得特别棒。

Think it's great when people are passionate about the game and care.

我记得哈瓦德·汗打 bulldozer 的那些场面，还有各种精彩表现。

I remember Havad Khan doing bulldozer and all this.

正是这种有个性的玩家，才让扑克真正有意思。

Mean, those type of characters are what make poker fun.

扑克本来就应该是个让人开心的事。

Poker's supposed to be enjoyable.

扑克本来就应该这样，赢了大牌你当然得兴奋一下。

Poker's supposed to be, you know, you're supposed to be excited when you, you know, win a big hand.

我不是说你要装成赢了大赛的样子，但你确实该有点激动。

I mean, you're not supposed to act like you won the tournament, but I mean, you're supposed to get excited.

我拿世界系列赛冠军的时候，好几次都忍不住挥拳庆祝，特别激动。

I mean, when I won the World Series, I, you know, there were several times where I did a fist pump or I got excited.

现在这种场面越来越少见了。

You just don't see that as much anymore.

就只剩主赛事还能看到一点。

You only see it in the main event.

其他比赛里基本看不到这种反应了。

You don't see it hardly ever in other events.

我觉得这种激情在扑克里正慢慢消失。

And I think it's just missing in the game.

别人一表现兴奋，还总有人笑，这正是大家不敢表露情绪的原因。

I mean, you know, people laugh when people do it, and that's part of the reason people don't do it.

就好像有人会说，快回家吧，他刚赢了比赛，可这还只是第三级别呢。

It's like, you know, someone will say something like, Everybody go home, he just won the tournament, and it's the third level.

但他打了一手好牌，确实挺兴奋的。

But he hit a big hand and he was excited.

这样挺好。

That's good.

让选手们好好庆祝一下嘛。

Know, let the guys celebrate, you know.

输的人当然难受，但话说回来，咱们也不是在打大学橄榄球。

It sucks for the guy that lost, of course, but at the same time, I mean, there's definitely, we're not playing college football.

牌桌上本来就应该有庆祝的空间。

There's room for celebration in the game.

你觉得，如果这种欢乐气氛能回来一点，不再被一些职业选手看不起，会不会吸引更多人来玩？

Do you think that would improve the numbers of people playing the game, the numbers of people coming into the game if there was a bit of that fun coming back in and it wasn't so looked down upon by some of the pros?

说实话，这几年这行确实不太景气。

I mean, the game's obviously, it's been hurting the last couple of years.

线上部分占了很大一块。

The online portion of it's a huge portion of that.

另一点是经济环境。

The other thing is the economy.

这项运动本身就有起有落。

The game itself sort of lends itself to ebbs and flows.

那时候因为玩起来很酷，来了好多新玩家。

I mean, you know, we had all these new players coming in because it was cool.

电视上天天播。

It was on TV.

谁都想参与进来。

Everybody wanted to be doing it.

现在电视上已经看不到比赛了。

We're not on TV anymore.

线上平台虽然重要，但真正撑起局面的是电视，那些线上公司其实是在靠电视赚钱。

And that's, you know, the online side of it, while it's important, it's really the TVs, you know, all those online companies were paying for the TV side of it.