控制你公司所用科技的隐秘产业

所以这真的很容易做到。

So it's really easy to do.

所以我接触的很多公司都专注于特定行业，或者深度集成你的CRM系统，以非常专业的方式深入你的系统，帮你应对这些大型、AI密集型的工作负载，而它们都是基于AWS构建的。

So a lot of ones that I speak to are hyper verticalized or they really get into your CRM or they really get into your system in a very specialized way to make things easier on you with these big very AI workload intensive AI intensive workloads, but they're built on top of AWS.

所以他们基本上会说：我们用你们的引擎开发了一个产品。

So they basically say we built a thing using your engine.

我们开发了一个产品。

We built a thing

我经常提到的节点公司。

node companies I'm always talking about.

对。

Right.

比如，

Like,

明白了。

got it.

明白了。

Got it.

当你观察

When you look

一个公司的技术栈流程时，你会看到许多不同的节点，每个节点都是不同的工具。

at a company's tech stack workflow, you see all of these different nodes that are all different tools that it's running through.

它会经过这里，经过Kong，然后再到那里，经过这个，再经过那个。

It's going to run through here, it's going run through Kong, and then it's going to go over here, and it's going run through this, and it's going to run through that.

这些在AWS上的公司，也大量出现在他们的市场中。

That's those companies all over AWS that are packed in their marketplace too.

这是一大堆。

It's a bunch.

现在有这么多初创公司。

So many startups right now.

我敢肯定今年你会看到更多。

And I'm sure you're gonna only see more this year.

我也是。

Same.

我同意。

I agree.

我的意思是，实际上，AWS 市场的例子也很好地说明了人工智能是如何略微改变渠道的。

That's I mean, actually, I think the the AWS marketplace example is a really great example too of how AI is changing the channel a little bit.

也许‘改变’这个词太强烈了，但在那个市场例子中，科里，作为终端客户，你现在比以往任何时候都更容易直接购买。

And maybe changing is too strong of a word, but, you know, in that marketplace example, Corey, you as an end customer, right, actually much easier than ever before could go buy it direct.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好观点。

That's a good point.

实际上，格兰特，这正是对你之前问题的回答：为什么不去直接这么做呢？

That's that's the example actually, Grant, to your earlier question, like, why not just do that?

在某些方面，过去五年里这变得更容易了。

In some ways, that's gotten easier over the past five years.

所以合作伙伴，现在我们变得复杂了，对吧？

And so partners and now this is where we get complicated, right?

因为AWS不希望失去它的合作伙伴网络。

Because AWS doesn't wanna lose its partner network.

因为AWS不能像销售其他产品那样直接在市场平台上销售其核心云服务，因为那是一个更复杂的技术部署和集成过程。

Because AWS can't just sell its core cloud on the marketplace in the same way because that's a much more technical deployment integration process.

没错。

Right.

确实如此。

It is.

因此，AWS构建了市场平台，以支持MSP（托管服务提供商）的解决方案。

So AWS has built marketplace to also support MSP offerings.

就像你可以进入市场平台购买ISV的代码一样，以保持广泛性，一些我们接触过的MSP也通过市场平台提供他们的服务。

So in the way that you can go into the marketplace and buy code from an ISV to kind of keep it broad, some MSPs that we speak to also offer their services through the marketplace.

因此，他们的客户会进入AWS市场来部署安全服务。

So their customer goes into AWS marketplace to provision security services.

MSP会分得一部分收益。

The MSP gets a cut.

AWS也会分得一部分收益。

AWS gets a cut.

中间参与产品开发的任何ISV都会分得一部分收益。

Whatever ISV is involved in the middle there in making the product gets a cut.

大家都赢了。

Everybody kinda wins.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Mhmm.

哇。

Wow.

我正试着把这联系起来。

I'm trying to relate this.

哦，你请说。

Oh, go ahead.

请说。

Go ahead.

当我们谈论市场平台时，这就是我们看到的情况：像Paxate这样的云市场平台，它们不想自称是分销商，却同时在与分销商竞争。

And this is where when we talk about marketplaces, we also see marketplaces cloud marketplaces like Paxate, marketplaces that are out there that don't wanna call themselves distributors and are also competing with distributors at the same time.

情况可能会变得有点复杂，所以

It can get a little hairy, so

我们得，你知道的，我们得

we'll, you know, we'll have to

再来一部分。

have a part two.

但我这么说是因为你看到MSP们希望展现出自己在他们所专注的技术和领域中的专家形象，这正是我们深入探讨垂直领域的原因。

But I I say this because you see MSPs as needing to be they they wanna make sure that they're showing up as that expert in whatever technology and field that they are focused on, which is why we got so into the vertical conversation.

因此，他们正试图通过这种方式持续区分自己：你虽然理论上可以直接通过这些市场平台完成这件事，但你应该选择让其他人作为第三方加入你的团队，因为我们知道自己在做什么。

So that is where they're trying to continue to differentiate themselves by saying, I know you could technically go do this with one of these marketplaces, but here's why you should stick with having somebody else be a part of your team in a third party sense because we know what we're doing.

你可以专注于你的业务，而我们会处理所有与IT相关的事情。

You can concentrate on your business, and we'll take care of the IT and everything involved in that.

我正试图将这一点与我所在领域的知识联系起来，比如你想在云上运行一个AI模型。

I was trying to relate this back to what I know on my domain here, which is the cloud service providers for, let's say you want to run an AI model over the cloud.

有很多所谓的新兴云服务商，或者说是构建在AWS、微软Azure等平台之上的服务。

There are lot of what they're called like neo clouds or like, I guess services that sort of run on top of an AWS or Microsoft Azure or something like that.

有人是在AWS之上进行采购的。

Somebody who's buying on top of AWS.

或者因为他们也有渠道计划。

Or because they also have a channel program.

是的。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

你我是

You're I'm

比如，你熟悉Fireworks、Base Ten这些公司吗？它们直接出售令牌之类的服务？

like, what what about are you familiar with, like, Fireworks or Base Ten or any of these companies that are, like, selling the, like, tokens, like, directly, basically?

它们属于渠道的一部分吗？

And and and are they part of the channel?

或者我在想，它们的业务模式是怎么运作的，以及如何与之区分。

Or or I'm trying to figure out how this works with with what they do and differentiate it.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好问题，格兰特。

That's a good question, Grant.

我得去查一下具体公司的情况，所以不想对特定组织妄加评论。

I I would have to check specific companies, so I don't wanna speak to, you know, specific organizations.

我想说的是，你或许能找到一些特定的技术渠道。

I think what I would say is you might be able to find specific avenues of tech.

我认为AI就是一个很好的例子，企业不一定需要中间的MSP。

And I think AI is a good example of this where businesses don't necessarily need an MSP in the middle.

因此，并不一定存在一对一的渠道连接。

And so there isn't necessarily a channel like one to one connection.

是的。

Yeah.

在这些情况下。

In those cases.

但如果你是一家深度投入AWS生态系统的公司，就以其中一个例子来说。

But if you are a company that's heavily invested in the AWS ecosystem, just to stick with one example.

是的。

Yeah.

你很可能拥有一家MSP，负责处理你至少一部分的环境。

Odds are you do have an MSP who's handling at least part of your environment.

因此，他们可能负责你的云计算资源。

So they might be responsible for your cloud compute.

他们可能构建了你的环境和存储容量。

They might have built your environment and your storage capacity.

所以你可能会在旁边零敲碎打地做一些事情，或者与其他企业、初创公司合作，但所有这些最终都需要整合进去的核心运营，很可能是一种渠道关系。

And so you might be kind of piecemealing some things on the side or working with other businesses and startups on things, but, like, your core operations that all of that kind of has to integrate into at some point is probably a channel relationship.

对。

Right.

这让我想到了 Vercel。

It makes me think of Vercel.

Vercel 也是另一个例子，对吧？在这种情况下，Vercel 基本上负责所有的 AWS 相关事务，然后像，

Vercel would be another one, right, in this instance, where Vercel basically is, like, handles all of the the AWS, stuff and and then Like,

是的。

yeah.

他们负责你的 AWS。

They handle your AWS.

他们负责你的 Supabase。

They handle your, excuse me, like your super base.

他们负责你的 Radius。

They handle your radius.

他们还提供各种其他小工具，当你在 V0 里进行灵感编码并需要一个数据库时，他们会说：嘿，我们帮你搞定。

They handle a variety of other little tools where when you go and, you know, say you're vibe coding in v zero and you need a database, it's like, hey, we got you.

搞定。

Bam.

完成了。

Done.

对。

Right.

所有这些都整合在一个生态系统里，你只需通过他们来操作，整个过程非常快速、简单、无痛，而且功能强大。

And it's it's all in this one ecosystem that's tied together and you're just doing it through them, which is really quick, easy, and painless and large.

我不确定这是否和我们刚才讨论的是完全相同的事，但感觉确实相关。

I I don't know if that's directly the same thing we're talking about, but it certainly feels like like we're in related.

这就是 AI 让这一切变得如此顺畅的地方。

Well, this is where AI has been has been, like, making this into such a a rock spider.

对吧？

Right?

过去几年，人工智能的出现催生了这些企业，或者推动了这些企业的诞生，它们也试图在市场中站稳脚跟。

This is where AI has come in the last few years who created these businesses or or led to the creation of these businesses that are also trying to get a foothold in the market.

因此，它们不得不去寻求一些更大的公司合作，或者建立渠道计划，因为如果没有网络，你又能卖给谁呢？

So they have to go to some of the bigger dogs or they have to form a channel program because then if you're without a network, who are you selling to?

所以这正是我们正在讨论的方向，就像查理·戴对着墙试图把所有点连接起来一样。

So that is that I mean, to the point of where we're kind of going, okay, you know, like Charlie Day in front of the wall trying to, like, connect all the dots here.

这正是人工智能对这个领域所造成的影响。

This is this is that because that is what AI has done to this space.

因此，这种加速、混乱和质疑，都源于人工智能，尤其是几年前OpenAI首次推出ChatGPT时，它加速了这一切，彻底改变了渠道格局。

So the the acceleration, the confusion, the questioning, that is all directed back to what AI and ultimately, like, what OpenAI a few years back when they introduced ChatGPT for the first time and has kind of, like, accelerated all of this, what that has done to the channel.

现在，这是个好问题。

Now are there a good question.

哦，你请说。

Oh, go ahead.

哦，通过渠道有没有办法购买OpenAI的产品？

Oh, are are there pathways through the channel where you can buy OpenAI?

我的意思是，还是会存在

I mean or will there

这正是我想问的。

That's what was gonna ask.

它们也与微软绑定在一起。

They're tied to Microsoft as well.

我一直很好奇，显然微软正在转向Copilot，但他们的合作伙伴的产品是否普遍可用？

And I've wondered, like, know, obviously Microsoft's going off to Copilot, but are things from their partners generally available?

通常是否会有特定的可购买方案？

Is it often a, here's a specific offering that's available?

我只是好奇这到底是怎么运作的。

I was just curious kind of how that works.

你能获得整个产品目录吗？

Do you get the whole catalog?

我的意思是，OpenAI目前正在积极构建其渠道计划，或者说正在努力拓展，你知道的？

I mean, OpenAI is is actively forming their channel program or trying to build it out right now, which some of the you know?

如果你是一名渠道主管，想哪怕只工作四周，赚到比以往任何时候都多的钱，我建议你去申请那些正在开放的职位。

So if you're a channel chief that wants to even work for four weeks and make more money than you ever have, I suggest going over and try to apply for those roles that are opening up over there.

不过，维多利亚，我现在把话题交给你，从更实际的角度谈谈我们如何获取这项技术。

But Victoria, I'll pass it over to you on a more literal sense of what we're seeing of how you can procure that technology.

是的。

Yeah.

从最广泛的角度来说，任何具有企业许可组件的产品解决方案，都可能适合渠道合作伙伴以某种形式转售。

I would say anything really at the broadest level, any product solution that has kind of an enterprise license component is probably fair game for a channel partner to be reselling in some capacity.

这通常是因为，MSP和渠道关系本质上是B2B的业务，对吧？

That is typically because, again, MSPs and channel relationships are a B2B venture, right?

当我们谈论消费者时，实际上指的是员工和企业。

So when we talk consumers, we're talking employees and businesses.

因此，这里需要的是以业务为导向的工具。

So there needs to be kind of a business focused tooling here.

但正如凯蒂所提到的，Anthropic已经宣布并开放了多个面向合作伙伴的职位。

But to Katie's point, Anthropic has announced and opened quite a few partnership facing roles.

所以这些副总裁头衔正在加入一些更大的AI平台。

So those VP titles are joining some of the bigger AI platforms.

当他们招聘合作伙伴角色时，真的会让人震惊，甚至让人更加困惑，因为渠道就是这样。

And when they hire for partner roles to, you know, really blow everybody's minds and confuse everybody some more because that's what channel do.

合作伙伴关系也类似于集成协议。

Partnerships are also like integration agreements.

比如OpenAI和微软，这是一个糟糕的例子，因为涉及大量资金。

Like OpenAI and micros well, that's a bad example because of the money involved.

但那是另一个问题。

But like, that's a separate problem.

比如理解。

Like Understand.

Anthropic这样的公司

The Anthropic and things like that

宣布

announced

你可以将我们和X工具一起使用。

you can use us and X tool together.

对。

Right.

微软和Anthropic刚刚达成了这样的协议。

Well, Microsoft and Anthropic just had a deal like that.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以这些协议、关系以及共同成果，也都是间接渠道的一部分，包括它们集成的安全工具等等。

So those agreements and relationships and mutual outcomes are also indirect channel all the security tools that they integrate with, etcetera.

你谈的是间接经销商，还有云服务商。

And you're talking indirect resellers and you're talking cloud providers.

我假设Azure上所有可用的东西，本质上就是他们的AWS。

And everything available in Azure, I assume, which is essentially their AWS.

我的意思是，AWS。

Mean, you know, is is AWS.

云服务。

Cloud offering.

不同的版本。

Different flavor.

微软Azure。

Microsoft WS.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我相信他们一定会喜欢。

So I'm sure they'd love that.

是的。

Yeah.

他们一定会喜欢整个这场对话。

They're love this whole conversation.

但回到你的问题，你很可能通过MSP专门采购ChatGPT，但根据我们之前讨论的内容，我认为许多这些合作伙伴正受到三大超大规模云服务商的强烈影响，

But now to to your kind of question, you can likely procure ChatGPT specifically from an MSP, but to the kind of earlier conversations we've had, I think many of those partners are being heavily influenced by the big three hyperscalers to

保持

keep

客户留在自家体系内。

the customers in house.

这一点已被广泛报道，再次推荐关注Channel Insider，了解微软如何通过其合作伙伴网络实现这一点。

Reported quite extensively, again, to plug Channel Insider on how Microsoft is doing that through its partner network.

有一系列返利、激励措施和结构化交易，

There's a whole slew of rebates and incentives and and structured deals that

是的。

Yeah.

如果能让客户使用Copilot，对MSP来说会更具吸引力。

More appealing to an MSP if you're getting your customers onto copilot.

是的。

Yeah.

因为当然会这样。

Because of course they would.

没错。

Correct.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，渠道这一块，我总是说，这更多是一场商业对话，而不只是技术对话。

Mean, this the channel is, I always say, as much, if not more a business conversation as it is a tech conversation.

对。

So Right.

是的。

Yes.

对MSP来说，确保他们的客户使用良好的技术，并且安全、高效地使用，这一点很重要。

It's important to MSPs that their customers are are using good technology and doing so securely, efficiently, etcetera.

但作为一家MSP，我也关心我的供应商关系是否融洽，因为我的利润就来自这里。

But I'm also as an MSP concerned about whether my vendor relationships are happy because that's where my margin is.

我的意思是，OpenAI和Anthropic都明确表示，今年是它们在企业市场展开竞争的一年。

Well, I mean, OpenAI and Anthropic have both made it very clear that this year is the year that they're competing on enterprise.

去年它们还在比拼编程能力。

Think last year they were all competing on coding.

我的意思是，编程确实是企业应用的一部分，但今年OpenAI的意思是，他们在企业领域要大展身手了。

I mean, coding is part of enterprise, but I think this year, OpenAI is like, we're to play when it comes to enterprise.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，在你看来，这对生态系统中的其他人意味着什么变化吗？

So what what in your mind does that change for everybody else in the ecosystem, if anything?

我还要快速补充一点，这远远超出了API使用范围。

I would also add to that real quick that, you know, that goes far beyond API usage as well.

我认为在AI领域，人们往往把企业应用等同于API使用，认为API使用就是企业应用的全部。

I think in the AI space, there's a tendency to refer enterprise as API refer to API use as like the extent of enterprise.

我的意思是，除了这一点，我们还需要考虑为我们的2000名员工提供什么，我觉得。

I mean, there's also the there's that element as well as the element of what do we want to provide to our 2,000 employees, I think.

抱歉，我只是想在你们回答之前补充一下。

Sorry, I just wanted to tack that on there before we got an answer.

不，

No,

我的意思是，这是个很好的观点。

mean, that's a great point.

我认为，格兰特，针对你的问题，答案还有待确定。

I think, Grant, to your question, the answer is yet to be determined.

合理。

Fair.

在渠道对话中，我认为已经有太多参与者了，我会非常感兴趣地观察OpenAI和Anthropic等公司如今如何进入企业市场。

In the channel conversation specifically, I would say there are so many players already in that I find it I will find it very interesting, I'll say this, to watch how an OpenAI and Anthropic, etcetera, kind of enter enterprise now.

目前来说，这还缺乏一个更好的术语。

It's for lack of a better term right now.

这并不意味着公司不会更换工具。

That's not to say companies don't switch tools.

它们确实会更换。

They do.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，对吧？

By all means, right?

所以我们完全可以看到这样一个世界：大家都觉得Anthropic更好，于是我们决定切换。

So we could absolutely see a world where everybody goes, Anthropics, a lot better, and we're gonna switch.

但企业已经以某种形式在试验AI，即使只是最基础的，这种可能性依然很大。

But the odds are enterprises already have some form of AI that they're experimenting with, if nothing else.

对。

Right.

在企业层面，渠道对话也通常是这样的：我的技术栈里可能已经有大约50种工具了。

And on the enterprise level, the channel conversation is also, you know, I have probably 50 tools in my tech stack already.

是的。

Yeah.

我已经被现有的技术遗留负担压得喘不过气了。

I'm already overwhelmed with all the legacy burden of tech I have.

对。

Right.

如果我要引入新工具，它必须能与我目前正在使用的所有系统集成，因为从数据角度来看，以及根据科里的观点，从API角度来看，如果我引入的东西无法与其他系统协同工作，那我就无法使用它。

And if I put something new in, it has to integrate with everything I'm already using because from a data perspective, and to Corey's point from an API perspective, if I bring something in and it doesn't play with everything else, then I can't use it.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，AI本质上是以数据为先的。

I mean, the AI is data first and foremost.

如果我的所有数据都在这边，对吧？

If all my data is over here, right?

我需要一个合作伙伴来告诉我：好的，你的CRM系统、所有的客户成功平台，以及包含所有问题工单信息的客服系统——这些都需要与你引入的任何新工具集成。

I need a partner to come in and say, okay, your CRM and all of your, you know, CSM platforms and your help desk that has all your ticketing information when things go wrong, like all of those are going to have to integrate with whatever you bring in.

我认为，越来越多的企业领导者听到来自董事会的要求，必须不惜一切代价引入人工智能，但同时又从CIO和安全团队那里听到，不惜一切代价引入人工智能正在破坏现有系统。

And I think increasingly, enterprise leaders who are hearing from the board that they need AI at all costs, but who are hearing from their CIOs and security teams that AI at all cost is breaking things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，也许就不该直接说：‘好吧，我们把所有东西都迁移到别的系统上吧。’

Might not want to then go, alright, let's move everything over to something else.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

让我们再花六个月时间，以大家都能够接受的方式部署它。

Let's take another six months to deploy this in the way that everybody's comfortable with.

对。

Right.

所以到七月时，当不可避免地下一个新事物出现时，因为总会有一个下一个新事物。

So that by July, when inevitably the next new thing has arrived, because there will always be a next new thing.

是的。

Yeah.

我们该怎么办？

What are we gonna do?

再迁移一次吗？

Move it again?

我觉得

Like, I think

你将会追上你的竞争对手。

You're gonna be catching your competitors.

这就是你将要做的事。

That's what you're gonna be doing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Right.

所以我认为，2026年可能会成为我们从渠道对话角度开始看到一些阵营形成的年份，比如‘我是xyz的合作伙伴’，对吧？

And so I I do think 2026 might be the year that we, at least from a channel conversation, start to see some camps emerge of like, I'm a partner of xyz, right?

微软、AWS、Anthropic，不管是谁。

Microsoft, AWS, Anthropic, whoever it is.

如果你想要成为我的客户，想从我这里购买AI服务，我会用这些公司，因为我了解他们，有问题可以直接联系他们，也理解他们的产品。

If you want to be my client and you want to buy AI from me, I'm using these guys because I know them, I can call them when I have questions, and I understand the product.

如果你想要别的东西，客户先生，

And if you want something else, Mr.

请别这样。

Customer, please don't.

你自己去搞定吧。

You'll get it on your own.

那你得自己去研究了，因为我不会去学习50个不同的生态系统，只为满足50个人想要50种不同模型的需求。

You're gonna have to go figure that out then, because I'm not learning 50 different ecosystems because 50 different people want 50 different versions of a model.

你知道吗，AI领域中一个可能存在问题的是，某个部门最适用的东西，对另一个部门却未必有效。

You know, something that could be problematic there is that one of the things we're really seeing in the AI space is that what works best for one department doesn't for another.

比如，软件工程师用的工具，和作家用的，还有财务团队用的，完全不一样。

Like, you know, what software engineers are using versus what a writer's using versus what a finance team is using Totally.

团队。

Team.

这确实是个大问题，我认为这也说明了微软在Copilot中增加了大量灵活性的原因。

It's a really big deal, and I think it points to that drive for like, Microsoft's added a bunch of flexibility into Copilot.

比如，现在你可以使用OpenAI的模型。

Like, now you can use OpenAI models.

你可以使用微软的模型。

You can use Microsoft models.

你也可以使用Anthropic的模型。

You can use Anthropic models.

是的。

Yeah.

还有谷歌呢。

Google even.

所有这些

All of

都集成在一个工具里，价格还一样。

those right there in one tool at one price.

我能理解这对一家公司很有吸引力，因为你可以让各个团队灵活选择最适合自己的方式。

I can see the attraction to that for a company where you have that flexibility among your teams to be able to take, you know, the approach that works for you.

事实上，我们还不知道这些具体是什么。

And the truth is we don't know what those are yet.

也许明天，对软件工程来说最合适的方式就会不一样。

It might be that tomorrow what's right for software engineering is different.

对写作来说最合适的方式也可能不同。

What's right for writing might be different.

而且，这种变化可能会一直持续下去。

And, and it may just continually flip forever.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道会怎样。

I don't know how it's gonna go.

我只知道，现在它的进展速度像一台顶级燃料 Dragster 一样快，Grant 和我经常感觉自己就像是后座的雨伞。

All I know is right now it moves with the the velocity of a Top Fuel dragster, and Grant and I regularly feel like we're the umbrella on the back.

你可以撑住。

You can hold it on.

正迎面承受着这股人工智能的浪潮。

Just taking a face full of this AI air.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道那是什么感觉。

I know what that that's like.

我觉得我们还看到合作伙伴也加入了讨论，就像你所说的，Victoria 分成了潜在的阵营，开始考虑支持谁、专注于哪一方的销售。

I I think to the point of where we're also seeing the the partners come into the conversation, and like you said, Victoria splitting up into potential camps, like going into who they're gonna side with and focus on that selling.

培训是托管服务提供商在其产品组合中提供的重要组成部分。

Training is a big part of the offerings that that managed service providers have in their portfolio.

如果他们能证明这不仅仅是一次性对话的话。

And if they can show that they can not only it's not a one and done conversation.

培训是一个持续的过程。

Training is an ongoing thing.

所以，如果他们能证明自己在培训方面取得成功——我这里说的培训，要具体一点，是针对用户的培训，而不是训练模型。因此，你们需要寻找那些声称自己获得认证并获得授权的托管服务提供商，他们能够为贵公司提供针对Anthropic模型或ChatGPT的培训，尤其是因为未来会有更多公司限制其可使用的LLM类型。

So if they can show that they can have success training and when I say training, I should be specific for your audience and saying training the users, not training the models in this So you're going to want to have managed service providers who say we are accredited and we are licensed in being able to train on the Anthropic Model or to train on ChatGPT for your company, especially because you're going to have a lot more companies who are going to lock down what LLM they can be using.

即使你们的团队在广泛使用不同品牌的AI产品，我也认为这种情况不会持续下去，科里。

Even if your teams are using different brands, essentially AI brands across the board, I don't see that as being something that's going to continue, Corey.

也许是我太悲观了，但从业务高层的角度来看，没有人有时间去为多个不同的LLM分别实施各种合规与治理措施。

Then maybe that's me being pessimistic, but only because from a top down business conversation nobody has time to apply compliance and governance of all different forms to several different LLMs across the board.

如果有人进来告诉你：我们不仅会为你锁定合规性，还会持续培训你的员工，让他们在新模型或每月、每季度更新的新一代模型推出时，都能熟练使用这些工具——无论我们将来会看到怎样的更新节奏。

If somebody comes in and says not only are we going to lock down the compliance for you, we're also going to continuously train your employees on how to use these programs as new models come out or as new generations of those models come out every month or every quarter, whatever we're going to see.

这就是你们应该选择我们的原因，这也将成为他们持续选择众多AI服务商之一的关键卖点。

And that's why you should go with us, And that's going to definitely be a selling point for why they are going to continue with one of the many at this point and the growing AI providers.

所以就这一点而言，我确信你会看到越来越多的人必须在培训内容上更加细致入微，也要更谨慎地选择合作伙伴，因为没人有时间去逐一应对所有选项。

So I definitely see as far as that goes you're going to see a lot more people have to get again, really granular with what they're offering with that training and who they pick, because nobody has time to go through all the ones.

因此，各大AI品牌之间可能会出现一些内斗。

So there will be a little bit of infighting amongst the AI brands.

所以这一切让我很好奇，我想听听你们两位的看法：人们自己开发软件并将其带入工作环境，这一趋势会如何改变这个局面？

So all of this makes me wonder, and I'd love to get both of your thoughts on this, how does the concept of people, like, creating their own software and bringing their own software to work change this equation?

简单背景是，很多人已经把Cloud Code不仅当作编码助手，还当作通用型代理工具，因为它能操作你电脑上的文件。

Little background, you know, a lot of people have been using Cloud Code as not just a coding agent, but a general purpose agent because it can manipulate files on your computer.

现在出现了一个更激进的工具，叫ClaudeBot，它几乎能访问你整个电脑系统。

There's this new one that's even more extreme than that called ClaudeBot that basically has access to your entire computer.

这太吓人了。

Very scary.

安全人员肯定会直接崩溃，彻底放弃挣扎。

Security people are absolutely gonna go, like, crawl in a hole and give up on life.

但就在最近，Anthropic刚刚发布了一个新版本，叫Claude Cowork，它让非技术人员也能轻松创建文件，完全不需要熟悉命令行。

But then now Claude, Anthropic just released a new version called Claude Cowork that makes it even easier for you to create files even if you're a non engineer, you're not, familiar with the terminal.

那么，你们俩对此有什么看法？

So what what are you guy what are your both of your thoughts on that?

这会对销售渠道以及我们销售软件的方式产生什么影响？

Like, how how is that gonna impact like the channel and how we're selling software?

举几个我听说过的这个平台能做的事情为例，我自己还没试过，但在这个背景下，我听说人们能快速搭建一个网站，这完全消除了他们对Wix等网站托管平台的需求，那些平台要求他们每月付费，而他们就会想：既然我能自己做，为什么还要付钱？

I mean to give a few examples of what I heard you can do with that particular platform, I haven't tried it yet myself, but in this context I've heard people being able to spin up a website super fast and that totally eliminates their needs for website hosting platforms like Wix that require them to then pay for every month, and they're like, Why would I do that when I could just make my own?

这对他们来说效果还不错。

And it's worked out pretty well for them.

所以在销售渠道中，支付某些服务的方式有几种，比如按需付费或按使用量付费。

So I consider in the channel there's a couple of ways that you can pay for certain things, whether it be pay as you go or pay for what you use.

我可以想象，如果他们发现某个功能可以自己动手实现，这种模式会严重冲击他们原本每月的付费方式。

I can imagine that something like that really disrupts what they're paying for on a monthly basis if they discover there's an aspect of it that they can just make themselves.

因此，我认为这可能会极大地颠覆软件公司，更具体地说，是我们提供不同软件或SaaS工具的方式。

So I imagine that this could really disrupt the way that software companies or more specifically how how we provide different software or SaaS tools.

在我看来，SaaS工具整体上可能面临困境，而销售渠道销售的很多产品都是SaaS应用或我们的ISV提供的SaaS应用。

I think SaaS tools in general could be in trouble in my opinion, and a lot of what the channel sells are SaaS applications or our ISVs who provide SaaS applications.

这只是我的一点看法，但我觉得我们现在才刚刚开始了解这一点，所以我并不想给观众造成经济恐慌。

That's some of my 2¢, but I do think that we are kind of on the cusp of just learning about this now, so I don't want to create an economic panic for anybody in the audience.

我只是个普通女孩，这就是我的观点。

I'm just one girl, that's that's my opinion.

但维多利亚，我很想听听你的看法。

But Victoria, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

我认为，格兰特，也许你无意中触及了当前渠道面临的一个存在性问题，我觉得这相当有趣。

I think, Grant, maybe without meaning to, you've kind of hit at, like, one of the existential questions of the channel right now, which I kind kind of find fascinating.

因为正如你所说，终端用户，也就是企业里那些人，他们说：‘我看了The Neuron，他们告诉我可以用Claude代码来做X Y Z’，于是他们开始尝试，现在自己做出了这些东西。

Because to your point, you know, end user customers, right, the the kind of people and employees within businesses who are going, oh, I I watched The Neuron, and they told me I can go use Claude code for x y z, and so I'm playing around with it, and now I've created these things.

相比以往，他们现在更倾向于重新思考自己对技术的整个使用方式。

They're, I think, much more inclined now than ever before to go and rethink their entire approach to tech.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得过去十八个月到两年，如果要找个背景的话，实际上已经形成了一种以消费者为主导的技术文化，因为ChatGPT是先在消费者端流行起来，才进入商业领域的。

Like, I think this the last eighteen months to two years, maybe let's just put it in context there, has really been this kind of like consumer driven culture around technology, because ChatGPT went consumer before it went business.

对吧？

Right?

我们稍后会谈谈这如何与过去几年在云计算和安全等领域的其他技术变革相关。

We'll talk a little bit later about how this kind of relates to other shifts in technology over the years in cloud and security and things.

人们无论IT团队是否允许，都会在工作内外使用这些工具。

People use these tools outside of work and within work, whether their IT teams are telling them to or not.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我认为从领导层的角度来看，这创造了一种文化：我已经为你支付了十年的费用，让你按月为我提供服务。

So I think what that creates is this culture then from a leadership standpoint of I've paid for this for ten years for you to do it for me on a monthly basis.

我还需要你吗？

Do I still need you?

MSPs需要找出这个问题的答案。

And MSPs need to figure out what the answer to that question's gonna be.

因为我认为，尽管我们能谈论许多影子AI的风险，但他们仍然是必要的。

Because I I would argue that they are still needed, because for all the shadow AI risks that we can talk about,

而且对于

and for

所有那些持续的配套支持工作，你仍然需要有人来做。

all of the kind of wraparound ongoing support things, you do still need somebody.

而且，我们也可以谈谈，15个员工各自做15件不同的事，效果并不理想。

And I mean, we could also talk about the efficacy of, you know, 15 different employees doing 15 different things, and not Right.

他们不共享成果，也无法整体上固化企业的运作方式。

Sharing those outcomes, and not kind of solidifying what a business does holistically.

但如果托管服务提供商（MSP）无法在业务回顾会议上以一种新的方式阐明自己的价值，那么我认为，确实有一些会面临问题——哪怕只是因为企业领导和员工现在对这种技术的接受度，比过去对‘我不懂IT，所以我只能听他们的’这种态度高得多。

But if MSPs can't sit in a business review meeting, and articulate their value in a new way, then I do think actually some of them are going to face some issues, if for no reason other than business leaders and employees feel a lot more comfortable with this tech than they have, I think, with previous kind of, I don't understand IT, so I'll just do what they tell me to do.

现在，AI是一种根本不同的方式，因为人们确实感到自己有能力去构建自己的工具、使用这些产品，而且坦白说，科技领域的CEO们也在鼓励他们这么做，对吧？

Like, I don't AI is a fundamentally different approach now, because people do feel empowered to go build their own things, to go use these products, and frankly, you have CEOs in the tech space telling them to, Right?

员工们会自己发现这些工具。

Like, employees find these things on their own.

他们都在看新闻。

They're reading the news.

他们看着一些业界巨头说，我用一个小时就搞定了，以前这可得花我四年时间还有个高级学位。

They're watching, you know, some of the biggest names in the business go, I did this in an hour, and it used to take me, you know, four years and an advanced degree.

这难道不好吗？

Like, isn't that great?

如果你听一个有钱人告诉你这些，那你很可能也在这么做。

If you're listening to the the rich man tell you that, you're probably doing it too.

所以我认为人工智能引发了完全不同的讨论，而这一过程的下一步是这些工具是否真正开始发挥作用。

So I think AI has fueled much different conversations, and I think the next step of that process now is whether things tangibly start working.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Right.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's true.

我觉得这尤其适用于个体创业者和小型企业。

I think it really applies especially to solopreneurs, and really small businesses.

如果你赚钱的方式是做一款面向员工少于20人的公司的SaaS工具，我认为那些本来就资金紧张、预算有限的公司，会尽力寻找能帮他们解决问题的办法。

If you make your money, you know, if you're a sass tool focusing on companies with less than 20 people or something, I think that area that's already cash strapped that has only so much budget, they're looking to do what they can.

他们根本不需要那些繁杂的CRM功能。

They don't want most of the features in blah blah CRM anyway.

对他们来说，最重要的是能跟踪X事项，并增加一些符合他们特定需求的小功能。

For the most part what they want is something that'll keep track of X and to add a few features that are specific to them.

而可视化编程让普通人也能轻松实现这些功能。

And, you know, vibe coding unlocks a lot of that to normal people.

我必须强调，Grant和我确实开发过软件。

I can't stress enough that Grant and I have built software.

你的背景虽然涉及这方面的内容，但远达不到那个水平。

Our Not your background in it, but not not anywhere near the level.

远没有达到我能够创造出来的程度。

Not anywhere near the level that I am capable of creating.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我也曾有个MySpace页面。

Had a MySpace page too.

我会编程。

I know how to code.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

不。

No.

我完全明白。

Totally get it.

GeoCities才是王者。

GeoCities for the win.

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

实际上，关于维多利亚提到的消费者驱动的AI工具兴起，我认为这对渠道来说是一个全新的挑战，因为正如我之前所说，渠道合作伙伴总是以可信赖的顾问身份接触客户。

To Victoria's point actually about the consumer driven rise of AI tools, that I think is kind of a new frontier for the channel to be facing because as I've mentioned before, channel partners are coming to their customers as that trusted adviser.

你经常听到这些话。

You hear those those words a lot.

可信赖的顾问是他们希望为客户扮演的角色，因为这能将他们与普通的故障维修店或技术支持台区分开来。

Trusted adviser is the title that they want to be for customers because it's the what differentiates them from just a regular break fix shop or a help desk.

因此，他们能够引导客户一步步前进。

So they're able to walk them through.

对他们来说真正令人震惊的是，许多客户及其企业员工主动找到他们，说：我们已经试过这个新工具了，甚至在他们提出来之前就已使用。

What was really startling for a lot of them is that a lot of the customers and their their businesses in general with their employees came to them saying, like, we've tried this new tool before they could even bring it up.

与上一轮渠道变革中涉及云计算时相比，客户对AI的了解要多得多。

Like, the customers know a lot more about AI than they did during the last sort of evolution in the channel involving cloud.

因此，当时人们对云计算、混合云甚至多云都感到非常困惑。

So there was a lot of confusion around cloud or hybrid cloud or even multi cloud.

因此，这确实是一个很奇怪的现象，我们看到渠道提供商几乎需要赶上来。

So this is really kind of a strange element where we see the channel providers needing to almost catch up a little bit.

这也解释了为什么他们如此专注于垂直化，如此专注于特定的细分应用场景，并成为某个特定领域的可信赖顾问，因为在这种情况下你无法泛泛而谈。

And that brings it back to why they're focusing so much on verticalization, why they're focusing so much on niche application uses and being the trusted advisor for something very specific, because you can't go broad in this.

工具和应用场景太多了，同时客户的需求还在不断增长，所以你必须保护好自己。

Like there's too many tools and there's too many use cases, and at the same time, wants more and more and more, so you have to protect yourself.

从我们——维多利亚、我以及Channel Insider团队的其他成员——的视角来看，一个有趣的现象是，我们看到合作伙伴们开始思考：为什么我的客户对AI的问题比我还多？

That's been an interesting thing to watch from our viewpoint between Victoria and I and the rest of the Channel Insider team is to see people go people as in partners go, okay, why do my customers seem to have more questions than I have answers about AI?

因为他们使用AI的方式已经超出了应有的边界。

Because they've been using it a little too outside of the guardrails.

所以目前确实有一种回调和聚焦的趋势。

So there definitely is kind of a walking it back sort of focus right now.

是的，当客户来找你讨论他们懂而你却答不上来的问题时，这确实很棘手。

Yeah, and it's tough for your customers to come to you and talk to you about something where they understand it and you don't have an answer.

或者，

Or,

或者，我认为他们其实知道。

alternatively, I would posit think that they know.

是的。

Yeah.

认为他们理解，因为这很合理。

Think that they understand, because That's fair.

这并不是说，在中小企业和各种类型的企业中，没有一些非常热衷技术的领导者，他们可能已经在尝试使用，并且比他们的合作伙伴更早发现了应用场景。

And that's not to say, there are absolutely leaders in SMB and in all forms of business who are very kind of tech enthusiastic, and are probably playing around, and have probably found use cases and things before their partners did.

当然。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

我认为更常见的情况是，许多企业领导者阅读着新闻头条，感到自己严重落后，并觉得必须做些什么才能赶上，于是他们带着这样的想法走进与可信赖的顾问、MSP的会议中，说：‘我听说街上的某某公司正在用X Y Z做这些事情，而如果你作为合作伙伴，要么根本还没理解AI，要么从安全和合规的角度出发，心想：好吧，他们其实不应该这么做。’

I think what's much more common is that many business leaders are reading headlines, feeling very behind, and feeling like they need to do whatever to catch up, and so they enter a business meeting with their trusted adviser, MSP, and going, well, I heard so and so down the street say that they're using x y z for all these things, and if you as a partner either a, generally haven't understood AI yet, or you from a maybe a security and a compliance mindset go, right, okay, they shouldn't be doing that though.

对吧？

Right?

说，我不在乎。

Goes, I don't care.

他们认为自己现在的财务状况比我们好。

They think that they're doing better now financially than we are.

这让我作为一个企业主感到害怕。

That scares me as a business owner.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

作为MSP，你就得扮演那个坏人的角色，说：没错。

You as the MSP then have to be the bad guy that's like, right.

但如果他们被黑了，那就完蛋了。

But if they get hacked, they're screwed.

是的。

Yeah.

你并不想成为他们。

And you don't want to be them.

对吧？

Right?

但这又回到了安全对话，总是这样：如果发生了什么事，而人工智能在短期内会变得切实可行，我使用这个工具、创造这个东西，对企业家来说更有吸引力，而不是说：‘万一三年后出了事，你会感激我们现在阻止了你。’

But then that goes back to the security conversations that are always very like, if something happens, and AI is going tangible short term, I use the thing, I create the thing, that's much more appealing to a business owner than the, well, on the off chance that something occurs to you three years down the line, you'll be grateful that we stopped you now.

没错。

And that's Right.

对于大多数中小企业来说，最基本的问题是：我不知道我能不能撑到三年后。

Like the fundamental business question for most SMBs is I don't know if I have three years.

这话说得真好。

Oh, that's a good call.

你说得对。

You're right.

是的，我现在正面临被颠覆。

Yeah, it's like I'm getting disrupted right now.

我不希望担心网络安全问题。

I don't want to worry about cyber security.

没错，正如科里提到的，当我们刚上线时，安全专业人士们都在捂住耳朵，说：天啊，他们还是不听，对吧？

Right, and to Corey's point that when we hopped on here, like security professionals are sticking their heads in the sands and going, Oh my god, they still don't listen, right?

因为现在这不过是新一轮的对话：没人认真对待安全问题。

Because now it's just the next evolution of conversation of nobody's taking the security seriously.

如果你不这么做，就会被甩在后面，这是另一点。

And if you do, you're left in the dust, is the other thing.

说实话，如果你愿意对安全问题少担心一点，现在就能解锁一些实实在在的巨大优势。

You know, the truth is, if you're willing to worry a little less about security, there are some serious, serious advantages you can unlock right now.

塞思·阿尔特曼在一次全员会议上刚说过，他当时真的很担心自己永远不会在电脑上安装这个东西并给予它完全访问权限，但这种担忧只持续了两个小时，因为我没安装，因为权衡之下代价实在太大了

Seth Altman just said that in a town hall, he was like, Yeah, I was really worried that I was never gonna install this thing on my computer and give it full access, and that lasted two hours, and I didn't, because the trade off is just so much

它更

It more

转移了你的注意力。

shifts your eye.

是的，我运行的一些东西其实不该运行，但它确实解锁了一些功能

Yeah, There's stuff I run that I should not run, but it just unlocks things that

抱歉，希望不是奥马尔和我们的IT团队正在听这段话。

Sorry to are not Omar and our IT team that's listening to this right now.

抱歉，我们爱你，兄弟。

Sorry, We love you, man.

我会上线的。

I'll be on.

不是在我的工作电脑上，我保证。

Not on my work computer, I promise.

就是这样。

There you go.

是的。

Yeah.

我本来想说。

I was gonna say.

哦，好吧，从那里开始，我还有另一个问题。

Oh, well, from there, I I have another question.

所以这个渠道是能保护小企业免受这种炒作的影响，还是会加剧它？

So does the channel kinda protect small businesses from that hype, or does it amplify it?

我认为两者都有可能。

I think it could be a little bit of both.

在我看来，根据我所看到的，当做得正确时——我们必须承认，仍然有一些MSP没有以正确的方式做事，无论是因为人员不足、人才短缺，还是因为跟上节奏的压力。

In my opinion, from what I've seen, when done right, because we have to recognize that there are still MSPs out there that are probably not doing some things the correct way, whether that be because of staffing, whether that be because of talent, or whether that be because of the pressure to keep up.

这种情况在每个行业都会发生。

That does happen in in every industry.

总有人宁愿抢先一步，也不愿做对。

You have somebody that would rather be first than correct.

我认为那些做得好的人，我有很多在渠道中真正非常尊重的朋友，因为他们以正确的方式经营企业，因为他们知道这样才能通过口碑获得更多客户。

I think the ones who do it well, and I have a lot of friends out there in the channel that I really, really respect because they run their businesses the right way, because that's how they know they're going to get more clients through word-of-mouth.

所以我这么说并自我克制，是因为在我看来，我认为它能保护小企业免受炒作的影响，尤其是在网络攻击不再针对大型企业、而是对学校、医院、儿童医院全面开放的今天。

So the reason I say all this and temper myself is to say in my personal opinion, I think that it protects small businesses from the hype because especially in a world where cyber the cyber attacks are not targeting large businesses anymore, it's it is open season schools, hospitals, children's hospitals.

这无关紧要。

It is it doesn't matter.

他们针对的是所有人。

They're going for everybody.

大门敞开，他们就进来了。

The doors open, they're coming in.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

我们正看到国家行为体与像Scattered Spider这样的流氓团伙之间的界限日益模糊。

We're seeing a blurring of the lines between nation state and, you know, rogue gangs like Scattered Spider.

所以我认为，最稳妥的做法是选择一家MSP，尤其是如果你是一家小型企业，或者中小型企业——这类企业的人数可能从25人起，甚至高达500人，这比你想象的还要多，但仍属于中小型企业范畴。

So I think that it's important to the safe option is to go with an MSP, especially if you're in a small business, a small to midsize business, which could be anywhere from 25 people, even up to 500 people in quite quite a bit more than you would assume still counts as a small to midsize business.

我认为选择MSP，选择一家服务商或解决方案提供商，是明智之举。

I think going with an MSP, going with a provider and solution solution to service provider is the smart thing to do.

我认为这会保护他们。

I think it's going to protect them.

而且我认为这还会引入一些他们原本可能想不到的东西，因为现在每个人都在使用AI系统的‘洁厕灵’。

And I think it's also going to introduce things that perhaps they would not have thought to introduce because you have everybody using the Kleenex of the AI system right now.

是的。

Yeah.

OpenAI的ChatGPT。

OpenAI's chat GPT.

他们可能根本不知道Claude的存在，而Claude对于他们的使用场景可能实际上好上十倍，只是他们没意识到。

They might not even know anything about Claude, and it could be, you know, 10 times better for their use case than they realize.

所以我认为，某种程度上，你必须让一些人存在，他们不会一味地同意所有事情。

So I think that it's important to consider at some point, like you got to have people in there that aren't just going to say yes to everything.

你真的需要提出那些棘手的问题。

You really need to ask the tough questions here.

但我认为，你也需要进行恰当的面试。

But I also think it matters that you interview properly.

这非常像约会，你要仔细面试那些你可以合作的MSP，真正弄清楚他们是只会向你推销产品的人，还是会成为你整个旅程中的真正向导？

It's very much like dating, like interview these MSPs that you could partner with, like really figure out, are they the ones that are going to just sell you something or are they going to be a true guide through the journey?

你这个AI月是在Sharma吗？

You're on Sharma this AI month?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你想让我

You want me

去完成

to hit the

这个月的配额吗？

quota this month?

谁想要是的。

Who wants to Yeah.

谢尔帕。

Sherpa.

没错。

Exactly.

那就是，我忘了是谁了。

That is that is actually I forget who it is.

也许你能帮帮我，维多利亚。

Maybe you can help me out, Victoria.

有人把谢尔帕当作他们的吉祥物，来引领整个过程。

Somebody has, like, a Sherpa as their their sort of mascot to lead through.

我 somewhere 有个毛绒玩具。

I have a plushie somewhere.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我非常喜欢这个。

I love that.

我不记得了。

I don't remember.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意凯蒂的观点。

I do I agree with Katie's point.

我认为，总的来说，每季度在你的高管会议中请另一位人士参与一下，提醒你：在确定计划之前，你有没有考虑过X、Y、Z？

I think that on the whole, having just even another person at your c suite level meeting once a quarter to be like, well, did you think through x y z before you solidified that plan?

对吧？

Right?

就像这样，作为中小企业主、技术负责人等，你通常和其他人一样，要么去问谷歌，要么去问ChatGPT：我该为我的企业买什么？

Like, think that's a level of protection that otherwise you as an SMB owner, tech leader, etcetera, are probably doing what the rest of us are doing, which is either asking Google or asking ChatGPT, what should I buy for my business?

或者回到我之前的观点，你是在信任街上的布莱恩，他确实如此。

Or to go back to my earlier point, you're trusting, you know, Brian down the street who Yeah.

可能是也可能不是你应该听的人。

May or may not be somebody you should listen to.

对吧？

Right?

所以，从这个角度来看，这是一种保护层。

So, like, I think from that perspective, it's a a layer of protection.

但我得说，MSPs 并不是一群不会被炒作周期迷惑的天才。

But I will say MSPs are not some kind of, you know, group of geniuses who don't also fall for hype cycles.

对吧？

Right?

就像，没错。

Like Right.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他们可能比中小企业更容易被推销这些产品，因为

And they're being sold probably harder actually than SMBs are being sold on some of this too, because

这很公平。

That's fair.

特别是许多大公司，其业务成败在很大程度上取决于这些工具是否被采纳。

A lot of the big companies in particular have really frankly, but a lot of their businesses on whether these tools get adopted.

对吧？

Right?

他们知道，是他们的渠道合作伙伴将帮助他们实现这一目标。

And they know that their channel partners are who's going to get them across the line.

微软目前在Copilot的成功上有着切身利益。

Microsoft has a vested interest at this point in copilot working.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Right.

除非他们的合作伙伴代为推进，否则Copilot不可能成功。

Not going to get Copilot to work unless its partners go do that on their behalf.

因此，微软正在对他们的合作伙伴施加很大压力。

And so Microsoft is coming down pretty hard on their partners.

如果你是一家MSP，也许你就会想，好吧，Copilot一定很棒。

And then if you're an MSP, maybe you do kind of just go, well, Copilot must be great.

这个观点很好。

That's a good call.

这并不是说我对这一点没有做出判断，但对整个渠道链条中涉及的所有企业来说，现在是一个非常关键的时刻。

That's not to say I'm it not, you know, making a judgment call on that, but there it's a very interesting moment in time for all of the businesses involved in the chain that is the channel.

因此，在这其中蕴含着大量机会，我认为这其中也充满了不确定性——每个人都告诉我，如果我不适应，一年内就会被淘汰。

And so within that, there's a lot of opportunity, and I think within that, there's also a lot of, I don't know what's going on, and everybody tells me if I don't adapt, I'm gonna be out of business in a year.

是的。

Yes.

所以我们只能先做起来。

So we're just gonna do it.

我们就直接去做，结果如何就顺其自然吧。

We're just gonna do it and let the chips fall as they may.

对。

Right.

因为，那还有什么别的选择呢？

Because I well, because what's the alternative?

你听听别人说的，好吧。

You you listen to people and go, alright.

我会破产？

I'm out of business?

就像

Like

是的。

Yeah.

这显然对任何人来说都没有吸引力。

That's not appealing to anybody for obvious reasons.

当然了。

Of course not.

是的。

Yeah.

你为什么认为AI对系统的压力与云服务或SaaS，或者以往的网络安全浪潮不同？

Why do you think AI is stressing the system differently than cloud or SaaS or, you know, previous cybersecurity waves?

除了我们之前提到的，还有什么根本性的不同之处吗？

Is there anything fundamental about it other than what we touched on, I guess?

我想说，除了对话方式的转变之外，从使用场景的角度来看，AI作为一种技术确实有一些根本性的不同之处。

I will say, I think the only thing other than the kind of the way the conversation has shifted is there are elements of AI as a technology that feel very fundamentally different from, like, a use case perspective.

比如，云和基础设施的讨论。

So, like, cloud and the infrastructure conversation.

对吧？

Right?

因为当我们说云的时候，我们真正指的是从本地部署转向云端的转变，以及这带来了什么变化。

Because when we say cloud, what we really mean is the shift from on prem to cloud and what that entailed

嗯。

Mhmm.

那并不是什么让人兴奋、真正想关注的事情。

Was not, like, the sexy thing that anybody actually wanted to think about.

你需要基础设施到位，但没人会为本地部署的对话而激动不已。

Like, you need your infrastructure in place, but nobody's, like, drooling over an on prem conversation.

对吧？

Right?

那些都不是重点。

Like, those are not the things.

除了在CNBC上的投资者。

Other than investors on CNBC.

我记得我们那时候上过一次。

I remember we went on that time.

这之所以是

A reason this is

被称为《神经元》AI播客，而不是《神经元》云计算播客的原因。

called The Neuron an AI podcast and not The Neuron a Cloud podcast.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的。

You know?

我们确实如此。

We yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的，这是一种眼不见心不烦的情况。

You know, it was one of those out of sight, out of mind things.

安全性，就像我们提到过的，也是如此。

Security, like we've touched on, is the same way.

你需要它。

You need it.

就像每年去看一次医生一样。

It's like going to the doctor once a year.

你知道你本该这么做。

You know you're supposed to.

但没人愿意。

Nobody wants to.

对吧？

Right?

所以就像，AI领域的人想要，而AI本身似乎以其他技术无法做到的方式自我提供。

So like But AI people want, and AI kind of provides itself, I think, in ways that the others don't.

就像你提到的，现在有一些以前其他技术所没有的开源工具。

Like, to your point, there's open source now that didn't exist before for some of the other technologies.

而且你确实会感到，随着越来越多的智能体对智能体协议被承诺推出，那种购物体验——这一切都会被整合吗？

And you do feel like with the onslaught of agent to agent protocols that are starting to be promised, the kind of shopping experiences of, Will this all be integrated?

我能告诉我的聊天机器人代我买东西吗？

Can I go tell my chatbot to go buy something on my behalf?

这会让MSP感到压力，因为如果我的客户以为他们只需编程就能完成所有操作，那几乎就等于他们认为我为他们做的全部工作。

That stresses an MSP out because if my customer thinks that they can just program something to go provision, that's like 90% of what they think I do for them.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这在安全方面不是问题，在本地部署到云端方面也不是问题。

And that wasn't a concern with security, and that wasn't a concern with on prem to cloud.

我认为AI有一些根本性的特点，正在促使人们重新思考当前商业关系的本质，这让人感到非常不安。

I do think there's something fundamental about AI that is potentially encouraging people to rethink the very nature of business relationships right now, and that feels very scary.

这就是无论你身处哪个领域，AI总会伴随的那种存在性焦虑。

That's the that existential element that tends to hang around AI no matter what field you're in.

我的意思是，作为记者、软件工程师，我们都感受到了这一点。

Know, mean, we've felt it as journalists, software engineers fill it.

你知道，有些人甚至说，高管们迟早也会被AI取代，事实上，AI的表现可能会超越普通的高管。

You know, there are people saying that even executives aren't gonna be safe at some point from what this can do, that the truth is it's going to be better than the average executive you would go higher.

你可以辩称，今天它已经存在了。

You can argue it's there today.

而且它今天可能就已经存在了。

And it may be there today.