别忘了罗兴亚人 | 重新思考人道主义

这不仅仅是关于法律责任的问题。

It is not only about legal accountability.

这关乎承认。

It is about recognition.

它确认了种族灭绝不能仅由数字来定义。

It affirms that genocide is not defined by numbers alone.

它是由意图和模式决定的。

It's defined by intent and pattern.

欢迎收看《重新思考人道主义》，这是一档探讨在危机日益加剧的世界中援助未来前景的节目。

Welcome to Rethinking Humanitarianism, a show that explores the future of aid in a world of rising crisis.

我是主持人塔马姆·劳达特，《新人道主义》的首席执行官。

I'm your host, Tammam Laudat, CEO of The New Humanitarian.

缅甸受迫害的罗兴亚社区正在等待正义。

Myanmar's persecuted Rohingya community are waiting for justice.

今年一月，国际法院就一起具有里程碑意义的案件开启了公开听证，该案指控缅甸犯有种族灭绝罪。

In January, the International Court of Justice opened public hearings in a landmark case accusing Myanmar of genocide.

主要信奉伊斯兰教的罗兴亚人经历了数代的迫害。

The mainly Muslim Rohingya population have faced generations of persecution.

2017年的一次清洗行动迫使数十万人涌入孟加拉国拥挤的难民营。

A 2017 purge pushed hundreds of thousands of people into crowded refugee camps in Bangladesh.

仍留在缅甸的罗兴亚人遭受了当局和若开军叛乱组织多方面的虐待。

Rohingya, still in Myanmar, faced abuse on multiple fronts from authorities and from the Arakan army rebel group.

其他地方的罗兴亚人则在亚洲或其他地区流离失所了一生。

Rohingya elsewhere have lived a lifetime in displacement around Asia or other parts of the globe.

但随着时间推移，人们的关注逐渐减弱。

But attention slips as the years pass.

我们今天的嘉宾敦促世界不要忘记罗兴亚人。

Our guest today is urging the world not to forget about the Rohingya.

努尔·阿齐扎是罗兴亚马亚福因ur合作网络的联合执行主任。

Nur Aziza is co executive director of Rohingya Mayafoinur Collaborative Network.

她向我们讲述了她的家人如何被驱逐出家园的故事，解释了当前的罗兴亚国际法院审判为何为其他法律案件铺平了道路，以及人道主义者和其他人可以做些什么。

She tells us her family's story about being driven from their homeland, why today's Rohingya ICJ trial paved the way for other legal cases, and what humanitarians and others can do.

如果你有任何问题或评论，请留在最后的片尾字幕中，了解如何通过《重新思考人道主义》联系我们。

If you have any questions or comments, stick around for the credits to find out how to reach us at Rethinking Humanitarianism.

诺尔，感谢你参加我们的节目。

Noor, thank you for joining us on the show.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

我们现在正在旁听冈比亚诉缅甸关于《灭绝种族罪公约》的国际法院庭审。

We are now seeing the session of the International Court of Justice in the case of Gambia versus Myanmar on the genocide convention.

你能谈谈罗兴亚人是谁，以及你自己的家庭和你经历的流离失所与散居情况吗？

Can you talk about who the Rohingyas are and your own family and your experience with displacement and diaspora?

我出生在九十年代，当时我们的村庄正发生军事行动和暴力事件。

I was born in the nineties, and military operations and violence were occurring in our villages.

军队来到我们的村庄，针对罗兴亚平民，烧毁我们的房屋，强奸妇女，各种你能想到的暴行都发生了。

And the military came to our village, and they were targeting Rohingya civilians going to our village and burning our homes to the ground, raping women, all sorts of mass atrocities you can think of.

于是我的家人决定逃离。

And my family decided to flee.

我的父母带着五个孩子决定，逃离比留在我们祖先的家园更安全。

My parents with their five children decided that it was enough and that being on the run was much more safe than being in our own ancestral homeland.

于是，带着五个孩子，当时我还是个婴儿，我母亲带着我们穿越了东南亚。

So with their five children, I was just a baby, my mother carried us across Southeast Asia.

我们踏上了许多罗兴亚家庭至今仍在经历的极其危险的旅程。

We made that extremely perilous journey that many Rohingya families make until today.

我们徒步穿越了东南亚的丛林。

We walked through the Southeast Asian jungles.

我们尽可能地搭乘每一辆巴士、每一列火车。

We took every bus possible, every train.

我们搭乘了每一艘船。

We took every boat.

任何能不断带我们前进、让我们尽可能远离暴力的交通工具，我们都用上了。

Any mode of transportation that would just constantly push us and make sure that we were as far away as possible from the violence.

我们非常依赖沿途收容社区和周围人们的慷慨相助。

We very much relied on the generosity of host communities and people that were around us.

我们最终来到了马来西亚婆罗洲的一个小岛上。

And we ended up in a very small island in Borneo in Malaysia.

婆罗洲是一个非常偏僻的小岛。

Borneo is a very small secluded island.

我们是那里唯一的罗兴亚家庭。

We were the only Rohingya family there.

我在童年时期的前八年半都流亡在外，作为一名难民，那段时光对我而言并不美好。

I lived in exile as a child refugee for the first eight years and a half of my life, and that period of time was not a beautiful time for me.

我无法接受任何教育。

I didn't have any access to education.

我不断在婆罗洲的丛林中逃亡，躲避警察，我们始终生活在恐惧之中。

I was constantly on the run-in the jungles of Borneo, hiding from the police, and we were constantly scared.

2003年，澳大利亚政府授予我和我的家人庇护权，我们迁居到澳大利亚，得以开启新生活。

And then in 2003, the Australian government granted my family and I asylum, and we resettled to Australia, and we were able to start our new life.

对于我来说，重新安置并不是我旅程的终点。

Resettlement was not the end of my journey for me.

这标志着我为我的人民承担责任的开始。

It was the start of my responsibility for my people.

无国界医生组织的统计数据已经说明了一切。

And the statistic by MSF just says it all.

如今大约有三百万罗兴亚人。

There are around 3,000,000 Rohingya today.

只有1%的人能够相对自由地生活并拥有身份，因为我们是世界上最大的无国籍群体。

Only 1% live with relative freedom and carry an identity because we are the largest stateless population in the world.

就像我的家人一样，数百万其他罗兴亚家庭也因跨境流离失所而被迫逃亡，因为留下就意味着监禁、性暴力、强迫劳动或死亡。

So like my own family, like millions of other Rohingya families experiencing displacement across borders, we had to flee persecution because staying meant imprisonment, sexual violence, forced labor, or death.

而2017年发生的‘清理行动’，驱逐并流离了超过70万罗兴亚难民，他们如今生活在世界上最大的难民营——孟加拉国，罗兴亚人总数超过一百万。

And now what happened in 2017, Operation Clearance, which cleared and displaced more than 700,000 Rohingya refugees that are currently living in the largest refugee camp in the world in Bangladesh, more than 1,000,000 Rohingya.

这是持续了八十多年之久的种族灭绝进程中最为暴力的阶段之一。

It was one of the most violent phase of genocide that had been unfolding for more than eighty four years now.

借口是什么？

What's the excuse?

为什么会发生这种情况？

Why is it happening?

为什么这种事已经持续了几十年，针对的是一群在祖先土地上生活了数百年的族群？

Why has it been happening for decades for a population that has been there for centuries that is in their ancestral homeland?

为什么会这样？

Why is that happening?

我能给出的最重要答案，但很多人却忽视了，就是这场种族灭绝背后的经济利益。

The biggest answer I can give you that many people skip over is the economic incentives for this genocide.

还有其他势力在助长对罗兴亚人的屠杀。

There are other players that are contributing to the killings of Rohingya.

我们可以看看中国，例如。

We can look at China, for example.

他们是军政府最大的资金提供者之一。

They're one of the largest funders of the military junta.

俄罗斯、印度、新加坡、泰国、马来西亚的私营部门，以及许多东盟国家都在为此推波助澜。

Russia, India, Singapore, Thailand, the private sector in Malaysia, many ASEAN countries are contributing to this.

在2017年的种族清洗期间，中国修建了一条从若开邦（又称阿拉干）通往中国的油气管道，这条管道至今仍然存在。

During the twenty seventeen genocide, China built oil gas pipeline going from Rakhine State, known as Arakan, to China, and it still exists today.

它被称为皎漂管道。

It's called Chokpu Pipeline.

这条管道摧毁了罗兴亚人的村庄。

This destroyed Rohingya villages.

它摧毁了罗兴亚人的家园。

It destroyed Rohingya homes.

它摧毁了流离失所者营地。

It destroyed IDP camps.

它摧毁了清真寺，而我们的家园蕴藏着丰富的财富。

It destroyed mosques, and there is a lot of wealth in our homeland.

这些资源正被利用并武器化。

And this is being used and weaponized.

不幸的是，由于贪婪，我们正在目睹罗兴亚人遭受大规模屠杀。

And, unfortunately, because of greed, we are seeing mass killings of Rohingya.

这其中还有其他层面。

There is also other layers to it.

因为我们是穆斯林，所以有人散布反伊斯兰言论，声称罗兴亚人威胁佛教，威胁缅族。

Because we are Muslim, there is a anti Islamic rhetoric to say that Rohingya are a threat to Buddhism and that we are a threat to Bama.

由于我们既不是缅族，也不是佛教徒，缅甸出现了女性化现象。

And because we are not Bama and we are not Buddhist, the feminization of Myanmar occurred.

由于针对我们的仇恨言论，他们称我们太黑，用我们的肤色攻击我们，说我们在英国殖民时期后是从孟加拉迁来的移民，称我们为孟加拉人。缅甸在国际法院的首席律师克里斯托弗·斯泰克甚至不称呼我们的正式名称。

And because the hate speech was used against us, calling us too black, using our skin color against us, saying that we were migrants after the English colonial period, that we came from Bangladesh calling us Bengali, The head of Myanmar's legal team at the International Court of Justice, Christopher Staker, he didn't even call us by our name.

他称我们为孟加拉人，而他同时也是为以色列辩护的律师。

He called us Bengali, and he's also the same lawyer defending Israel.

这有什么好惊讶的呢？

Why is it not a surprise?

人们可能一时难以理解，称罗兴亚人为孟加拉人，是试图让他们看起来不属于自己的家园，暗示他们是移民或新近移民。

People might not immediately grasp that calling Rohingya's Bengalis is an attempt to make them appear like they don't belong in their homeland, that they're immigrants or recent immigrants as the claim goes.

我想强调的是，我们在东南亚也看到了类似的情况。

I want to highlight that we're seeing this in Southeast Asia as well.

在东盟地区，尤其是马来西亚、印度尼西亚和泰国，仇恨言论、虚假信息和误导性信息正在增加，因为有许多罗兴亚人流亡在这些国家。

There is an increase of hate speech, misinformation, disinformation in ASEAN, in Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand in particular, because there are many Rohingya in exile in these countries.

公众正在被这些仇恨言论的显现所影响。

The public is falling for The manifestation of these hate speeches occurring.

我们正在目睹针对罗兴亚人的暴力行为。

We're seeing violence against Rohingya.

就在去年，我们不得不为居住在印度尼西亚难民营的一些罗兴亚女性寻找安全住所，因为当地居民在营地外抗议，声称罗兴亚人不该在那里。

It was just last year when we had to find safe housing for some of the Rohingya women living in the refugee camps in Indonesia because the locals were protesting outside the camp saying that Rohingya should not be there.

作为穆斯林，比如我们的华人是穆斯林，罗兴亚人也是穆斯林，但这已经不再有帮助了。

Being Muslim, like, our Chinese are Muslims and Rohingya are Muslims, it doesn't help anymore.

我想转向目前国际法院正在审理的案件。

I want to move to the case currently in front of the International Court of Justice.

我们是怎么走到这一步的？

How did we get here?

你能更多地告诉我们关于这个案件的情况吗？

Can you tell us more about the case?

缅甸军方是这场暴力的主要施暴者，他们实施了所谓的‘清理行动’，涉及超过25,000名罗兴亚女性遭到强奸，超过398个村庄被焚毁。

The Myanmar military, who are the main perpetrators of this violence, carried out so called operation clearance, which involved the rape of more than 25,000 Rohingya women, the burning of more than 398 villages.

这些行为是有意为之、有组织地进行的，并伴随着去人性化宣传、仇恨言论、虚假和误导性信息。

And these acts were carried out with intent, coordination, in dehumanizing propaganda and hate speech, misinformation, disinformation.

因此，缅甸当前的问题是若开邦境内发生了若开军等民族武装组织与缅甸军队之间的冲突。

So the issue in Myanmar right now is there is fighting in Rakhine state amongst ethnic armed group Arakan Army, and the Myanmar hunter.

而且现在正面临多重危机。

And there is a poly crisis.

双方正在互相交战，且都在实施近期的种族灭绝暴力行为，主要是若开军。

Both are fighting against each other, and both are conducting the recent genocidal violence, mainly the Arakan Army.

因此，缅甸军方在2017年发动了‘清理行动’，以煽动冲突。

So the Myanmar military carried out operation clearance in 2017 to encourage fighting.

在国际法院的案件中，律师提交了一名罗兴亚人的证词，以及军方在Facebook上发布的一条信息。

The ICJ case, the lawyer stated a testimony from a Rohingya and also a line that the military placed on Facebook.

他们写道：磨利你的工具，磨利你的刀具，准备好杀死这些动物。

And they wrote, sharpen your tools, sharpen your knives, and get ready to kill the animals.

他们还武装了若开族家庭，以确保在罗兴亚村庄遭到袭击时能够自卫。

And they also armed ethnic Rakhine household to make sure that they were able to defend themselves when Rohingya villages were being raided.

如今，主要的暴行由缅甸军方实施，他们以罗兴亚团体纵火事件为借口，侵犯并杀害无辜儿童。

Now the abuses were mainly by the Myanmar military hunter, and they used the incidents of the fire by the Rohingya group as an excuse to violate and to kill innocent children.

我最近几天听到的一些证词描述了一名罗兴亚妇女眼睁睁看着她的侄子侄女被活活扔进火堆。

Some of the testimonies I've been hearing the last few days were of a Rohingya woman seeing her nieces and nephews being thrown in the fire alive.

一名七岁的罗兴亚女孩说，她很幸运，只被三名士兵强奸了，因为她的大多数七岁朋友都在父母面前被十名军官强奸。

A Rohingya child, a seven year old, stated that she was lucky that she was raped by three military because most of her seven year old friends were raped by 10 officers in front of their parents.

她认为被三个人强奸已经是幸运了。

She she considered three as lucky.

这个案件的启动源于社区的大力推动。

This case began because of a lot of push from the community.

该案由冈比亚提起。

It was taken by The Gambia.

2018年，联合国事实调查团得出结论，认为存在种族灭绝的意图。

And in 2018, the UN fact finding mission, they concluded there was genocidal intent.

这规模相当大，但仍然没有随之而来的自动问责。

That was quite huge, but there was still no automatic accountability followed.

到了2020年，国际法院下令采取临时措施，承认罗兴亚人面临遭受不可挽回伤害的切实风险。

And then in 2020, ICJ ordered the provisional measures acknowledging that Rohingya faced a real risk of irreparable harm.

提醒我们的观众，国际法院可以采取临时措施，即在正式审理案件实质问题之前，要求采取某些行动。

To remind our audiences, the ICJ can take provisional measures as in order actions to be taken before they even discuss the merits of the case.

因为正如你所说，他们认为如果什么都不做，可能会造成不可挽回的损害，而案件可能持续多年。

Because as you say, they see the possibility of irreparable damage if nothing has happened, and the cases can go for many years.

是的。

Yes.

一些临时措施要求停止暴力行为，本质上是保存种族灭绝的证据。

And some of the provisional measures said to stop the violence, essentially, preserve evidence of genocide.

那么，他们有遵守吗？

And now did they follow?

他们没有。

They didn't.

他们继续实施暴力。

They continued with the violence.

他们继续制造暴行。

They continued with the monstrosity.

缅甸试图声称冈比亚不应介入。

Myanmar tried to claim that the Gambia should not have intervened.

是的。

Yeah.

他们声称，因为冈比亚不是受害国。

They claimed that because the Gambia was not a violated state.

对。

Yes.

他们质疑国际法院对冈比亚主张的管辖权，但被国际法院驳回。

They challenged the jurisdiction of the ICJ on Gambia's claim, which was rejected by the ICJ.

正确。

Correct.

我认为，我们必须将此视为国际法院的一次有力否决。

And I think it's important that we see this as a powerful rejection from the International Court of Justice.

它表明《灭绝种族罪公约》属于每一个人。

It says that the genocide convention belongs to everybody.

现在我们看到南非将以色列告上法庭。

Now we're seeing South Africa taking Israel to court.

这之所以能够发生，是因为罗兴亚案让我们改变了国内法律。

This was only able to occur because of Rohingya case because we changed the national law.

因此，今天我们在等待关于案情实质、司法认定和责任的完整听证。

So today, we are waiting for the full hearings on the merits, the judicial findings and responsibility.

这可能需要多年时间。

This can take years.

因此，我们至少能做的就是确保幸存者的声音被听到。

So we the least we can do is make sure that the survivors are heard.

而且我们要明白，这个国际法院的案件并非一切。

And that we know this ICJ case is not everything.

这并不能帮助解决这场种族灭绝，但我们利用它来获得一点话语权，在媒体上争取一些平台。

It's not going to help resolve this genocide, but we are using it to give us a little bit of leverage, to give us some platform on the media.

因为目前，媒体已经失去了报道罗兴亚种族灭绝事件的兴趣。

Because right now, the media has lost the appetite to cover the Rohingya genocide.

我们正在努力争取在半岛电视台获得三十秒的播出时间。

We are fighting to be on Al Jazeera for thirty seconds.

我们利用这个案件来教育公众。

We're using this case as a leverage to educate people.

我的意思是，比如我住在澳大利亚。

I mean, I live in Australia, for example.

我四处巡回演讲，讲述我的生活、我的工作，诸如此类的事情。

I go around and I do a lot of talks about my life, my work, blah blah blah.

我每次演讲都会先问观众，有多少人听说过罗兴亚人。

I always start my delivery by asking the audience who's heard about Rohingya.

我向你保证，可能只有不到一只手的人会举手。

And I promise you maybe, like, we'd have half a hand up.

我们还有很长的路要走。

We have a long way to go.

我们需要更广泛的运动。

We need a wider movement.

我们不能只依赖罗兴亚种族灭绝幸存者继续独自承担重担。

We cannot rely on Rohingya genocide survivors to continue to just carry the load.

我们需要其他人来抗议。

We need other people to protest.

我们需要其他人向东盟政府施压，要求问责、提供安全住房与安全保障。

We need other people to put pressure on ASEAN governments, provide accountability, safe housing, safety.

你知道，如今许多罗兴亚人所在的流亡国家，他们并没有得到保护。

You know, a lot of these countries Rohingya are in today, in exile countries, they're not protected.

他们中的许多人并不在难民公约的保护范围内。

A lot of them are not part of the refugee convention.

比如沙特阿拉伯、巴基斯坦、孟加拉国、马来西亚、印度尼西亚和泰国，许多罗兴亚人被拘留，斯里兰卡也是如此。

Saudi Arabia, for example, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand, many Rohingya detained Sri Lanka.

去年在马来西亚附近海域，有280名罗兴亚人溺水身亡。

280 Rohingya drowned near the sea in Malaysia last year.

这本可以完全避免。

This could have been prevented completely.

这就是为什么冈比亚对缅甸提起的当前案件，以及国际法院的审理，对像我这样的幸存者来说意义如此重大。

This is why the current ongoing case brought by The Gambia against Myanmar, the International Court of Justice matters so deeply like survivors like myself.

这不仅仅是关于法律追责。

It is not only about legal accountability.

这是关于承认。

It is about recognition.

它证实了种族灭绝不能仅由死亡人数来定义。

It affirms that genocide is not defined by numbers alone.

它是由意图和模式所定义的。

It's defined by intent and pattern.

它确认了罗兴亚人在国际法下是受保护的群体。

It affirms that the Rohingya are a protected people under international law.

我曾在无国界医生组织工作了很久，一直让我困惑的是，2017年之后罗兴亚难民的处境竟然如此少为人知。

I worked for MSF for a long time, and it always puzzled me how little known the situation is of Rohingya refugees after 2017.

老实说，在那之前很长一段时间里都是如此，我们也可以谈谈在他们家乡若开邦，罗兴亚人长期所遭受的生活限制和压迫。

And to be honest, for a very long time before that, and we can also talk about the restrictions on life and the limitations that were put on Rohingyas in Arakan in the time state in their homeland.

但你的看法是什么？

But what's your sense?

我们这里谈论的是大约一百万人，他们生活在孟加拉国东部科克斯巴扎尔的难民营群中，有些人已经在那里生活了近十年。

We're talking here about a million people in a complex of camps in Cox's Bazar in Eastern Bangladesh who have lived there for nearly a decade, some of them.

但至少在可预见的未来，这种情况几乎没有改变的可能。

And there's very little to expect that to change at least in the immediate future.

只有极少数罗兴亚人拥有行动自由、合法身份或公开发声的权利，这确实是几十年来层层蓄意限制的结果，就像生活在若开邦的种族隔离状态中一样吗？

The fact that only a tiny fraction of Rohingya have freedom of movement, legal identity, or the ability to advocate openly is truly the result of layered deliberate restrictions imposed over decades, like living in apartheid state in Arakan Rakhine?

目前有三百万人是罗兴亚人，其中至少有一百万人被困在孟加拉国东部的科克斯巴扎尔和卡塔帕隆等大型流离失所营地中。

So there are 3,000,000 Rohingyas, of which at least a million is in the mass displacement compound in Eastern Bangladesh and Katapalong and Cox's Bazar.

还有许多人处于流离失所状态，但只有1%的人获得了行动自由，即被其他国家接纳并提供庇护。

And many others are displaced, but only 1% has the freedom of movement as in have been accepted and given refuge by other countries.

其他国家都没有提供援助。

Other countries haven't come to relief.

你提到自己获得了澳大利亚的庇护。

You tell about your case of having been granted refuge in Australia.

例如，澳大利亚如今对接受难民持开放态度。

Australia is now open today, for example, among others, to accepting refugees.

重新安置的人数非常少。

The numbers are very small for resettlement.

我去年，大约三个月前，去过孟加拉国，当时我见了联合国难民署，问他们关于重新安置的机会。

I was in Bangladesh last year, about three months ago, And I met with UNHCR, and I asked them what the opportunities for resettlement is.

他们说，他们不鼓励在难民营内进行重新安置，因为他们不想给罗兴亚人带来过高的期望，因为重新安置的名额已经完全减少了。

And they say that they don't promote resettlements within the camps because they don't want to give high hopes to the Rohingya because the resettlement numbers have just decreased completely.

例如，美国在2019年——如果我没记错的话——当时我在日内瓦参加全球难民论坛，我在现场，美国承诺在未来十年每年接收一万名罗兴亚难民。

For example, The US in 2019, if I'm correct, when I was in Geneva at the Global Refugee Forum, I was in the room, and The US pledged to take 10,000 Rohingya refugees per year for the next ten years.

现在我不知道你是否听说了美国最近的选举。

Now I don't know if you've heard about the recent election in The US.

现在是零了。

Now it's zero.

明确一下，10000并不是钱，但现在已经降到了零。

And to be clear, 10,000 is not money, but that has diminished to zero now.

对。

Correct.

现在确实是零了。

It is zero now.

没有任何重新安置了。

There's no resettlement.

我记得当 resettlement 变为零的时候，我不断接到机构的电话，说他们已经有家庭准备好了。

I remember when it became zero, I was receiving phone calls from agencies saying we had families ready to go.

他们的行李在马来西亚都已经准备好了。

We had their luggage ready in Malaysia.

他们说，家庭们正在购买新衣服，非常兴奋。

They said families were buying new clothes, and they were so excited.

然后第二天他们被告知，重新安置计划已被取消。

And then they were told the next day that the resettlement has been annexed.

这简直令人彻底崩溃。

And it was just absolutely devastating.

澳大利亚每年可能接收大约1000名罗兴亚难民，但如果你考虑到超过一百万的人数，这简直是微不足道。

Australia is taking maybe about 1,000 Rohingya refugees per year, which is literally nothing if you think about the more than 1,000,000.

所以，是的，从长远来看，最终目标并不是重新安置。

So, yeah, in the longevity of this, the end goal is not resettlement.

不是去澳大利亚悉尼的海港大桥。

It's not about going to the Harbour Bridge in Sydney, Australia.

也不是去伦敦。

It's not about going to London.

而是安全地回到祖先的家园。

It's about going back home to ancestral homeland with safety.

很多人问我，罗兴亚人的最终目标是什么？

And a lot of people ask me, what is the end goal for the Rohingya?

当我与社区交谈时，他们渴望回到家乡，但必须有安全和尊严。

And when I speak with the community, they yearn to go back home, but with safety, with dignity.

在这场种族灭绝期间，人道主义组织在提供援助以及发声或采取政治行动方面做了什么？

What did humanitarian organizations do during this genocide, both in terms of providing aid and in speaking out or acting on the political part.

许多组织在结构上无力或不愿直面这一问题。

Many were structurally unable to unwilling to confront it.

联合国在缅甸花了相当长的时间才将此视为暴力行为，而这导致了更多暴力的发生。

It took the UN in Myanmar quite a while to see this as violence, and that allowed for further violence to occur.

这并不意味着个人不关心。

It didn't mean that individuals didn't care.

这意味着系统失败了。

It means that the system failed.

系统不允许人们承认这一事实。

It didn't allow for people to acknowledge it.

人道主义组织并非问责主体。

Humanitarian organizations are not accountability actors.

这些大型机构大多被授权提供援助、保持中立、维持准入、避免政治对抗，但这就可能成为一个问题，因为我们今天看到的风险——罗兴亚人被逐出我们的国家，超过90%的罗兴亚人离开了我们的家园。

Most of these large agencies are mandated to deliver aid, stay neutral, maintain access, avoid political confrontation, but then this can become a problem because the risk, what we're seeing today, the expulsion of Rohingya from our country, more than 90% of Rohingya outside of our homeland.

我认为这凸显了危机的严重性，而且我们还看到了资金削减。

I think this underscores the severity of the crisis, and we're seeing funding cuts as well.

例如在孟加拉国，罗兴亚难民每月只有12美元的生活费。

In Bangladesh, for example, Rohingya refugees are living on $12 a month to live.

这相当于每天20美分。

That's 20¢ a day.

你甚至用20美分买不到一包金枪鱼面。

You cannot even buy a packet of tuna noodles with 20¢.

去年由于全球人道主义资金削减，6500个学习中心关闭了。

6,500 learning centers have shut last year because of the global humanitarian funding cut.

超过50万儿童，约占儿童人口的一半。

More than 500,000, about half of the population of children.

当我身处难民营时，到处都是孩子。

When I was in the camp, there were children everywhere.

我只是在营地里走动时，我的非政府组织车辆开了进来，我非常害怕，因为孩子们在营地里无所事事，我担心他们会撞上车。

Just walking around, my NGO vehicle entered, and I was so afraid because I was afraid the children were going to get hit by the vehicle because they have nothing to do in the camp.

那时是雨季。

It was rainy season.

我看到孩子们用泥土做玩具，尽其所能地打发时间，而不是去上学。

I saw children trying to make toys out of mud, doing whatever they can to keep themselves occupied instead of going to school.

这将导致罗兴亚人产生新一代的文盲。

Now this is going to create a new generation of illiteracy of Rohingya.

为了我们将来重返家园时能够重建家园，我们需要为罗兴亚儿童提供教育。

We need education for Rohingya children in order for us to rebuild our homeland when we do go back home.

当组织们软化措辞，称这是一场危机、复杂紧急状况、社区暴力时，实际上这是一场种族灭绝。

When organizations soften the language and say, it's a crisis, complex emergency, it's a communal violence, when really it was genocide.

我记得上个月在日内瓦联合国举行的全球难民论坛上，我感到非常自豪，因为他们的高级专员普里亚皮·古兰迪结束了任期。

I remember last month when I was at the Global Refugee Forum in Geneva at the UN, I was really proud because their higher commissioner, Priyippe Gurandi, was ending his his term has ended.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他最后说，他对其中一位发言者感到非常反感。

And he ended it by saying that he was quite disgusted by one of the speakers.

他的发言者是缅甸。

His speaker was Myanmar.

缅甸称，罗兴亚人大规模流动、我们看到大量罗兴亚人被驱逐出本国的原因是贫困。

And Myanmar said that reason why Rohingya had mass movements, and we've seen a plethora of Rohingya removed from their country is because of poverty.

他在闭幕发言中指出，罗兴亚人被驱逐是因为暴力和种族清洗，而不是因为贫困。

And he called that out during his closing remark and said the Rohingya were removed because of violence, because of ethnic cleansing, not because they were poverty.

当时在场的我们——三位罗兴亚女性和我的两名团队成员——都大声欢呼、尖叫，而他则泪流满面。

And then us in the audience, it was like three Rohingya women, two of my team members, and they were just yelling and screaming, cheering, and he was in complete tears.

但他现在一边出门一边还在说。

But he's talking now as he's getting out of the door.

他难道不该在他任职的这么多年里早就这么说吗？

Shouldn't he have said that in the past, like, umpteen years he's been in office?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Correct.

我的天，这真让我难以置信。

I mean, that boggles my mind.

人们总等到快离场时才开口，那时他们已经毫无风险了。

People wait until they're out of the door, and they are taking zero risk anymore

确实。

Per.

却在那些毫无意义的时候去争取那些体面或重要的职位。

And take those, like, honorable or big positions when it leads nowhere.

那时，中立就变成了一个问题。

That's when the neutrality becomes a problem.

我想谈谈这一点，因为我最近看了我们2018年的一份报告，里面说联合国必须对缅甸采取更强硬的立场。

And I want to talk about that because I was looking at one of our reports from 2018 that says why the UN must take a stronger stance on Myanmar.

那是对利亚姆·马奥尼的采访，他曾在2015年和2017年撰写了两份报告。

And it was an interview with Liam Mahoney who had written two reports in 2015 and '17.

对联合国来说，这两份报告都没有公布。

And to the UN, both weren't published.

他称他们的沉默是对罗兴亚人遭受暴力的共谋。

And he calls their silence, complicity in the violence against the Rohingyas.

在这里，我谈论的不仅仅是联合国。

And here, I'm not talking only about the UN.

我谈论的是更广泛的人道主义领域。

I'm talking about the broader humanitarian sector.

你正确地指出，这份工作、这项授权，无论是什么，都是提供援助。

You say rightly that the job, the mandate, whatever it is, is to provide aid.

但甚至提供援助都变得不可能。

But even aid isn't possible to provide.

你认为这个领域是在走向共谋，还是已经积极地参与了正在发生的事情？

Do you think this sector is verging or actively complicit in what is happening?

我认为有一种方式可以在不通过军方渠道的情况下提供援助。

I think there is a way to provide aid without going through the channels of the military.

我和我的团队是一个非常小的民间组织。

Team and I, we're a very small civil society organisation.

我们并不是一个人道主义援助组织。

We are not a humanitarian aid organisation.

但由于我们需要在人们逃离暴力时挺身而出提供食物，过去一年半里，超过18万罗兴亚难民逃往孟加拉国。

But because we need to step up and feed our people when they're escaping the violence, In the last year and a half, more than a 180,000 Rohingya refugees fled to Bangladesh.

在这18万人中，我们为超过3000个家庭提供了食物、安全住所、衣物和医疗援助。

Within that 180,000, we had to provide aid to more than 3,000 families with food, safe housing, clothing, medical access.

孩子们抵达时身上连衣服都没有。

Children were arriving with no clothing.

妇女们抵达时身上带着伤。

Women were arriving injured.

我们绕过了军政府完成了这些援助工作。

And we did this bypassing the military junta.

我们也能在缅甸境内提供援助。

We're able to provide aid in Myanmar as well.

所以我认为有必要进行变革，依赖难民主导的组织，因为我们总是最先获取关于实地情况信息的人。

So I think there is a need for change to rely on refugee led organizations because we are always the first people to garner information and gather information about what's happening on the ground.

尽管我们的资金来源微乎其微，远不及大型人道主义组织，但我们总是领先五步。

We're always five steps ahead even though we have a funding stream of peanuts compared to huge humanitarian aid organisations.

因此，我认为强调难民自身的工作非常重要。

So I think it's important that we highlight the work of refugees themselves.

始终是社区首先站出来帮助自己的社区。

It's always communities stepping up for the communities first.

并不是那些大型机构。

It's not the big agencies.

我们是第一个为一名15岁女孩提供救助的组织，她抵达时面部已不复存在——轰炸夺走了她半张脸。

We were the one the first one to provide care for a 15 year old that arrived with no face because the bombings removed half of her face.

无国界医生医院告诉我们，他们无法前往边境，难民必须自己前往无国界医生医院。

MSF hospital were telling us that they couldn't go to the border and that the refugees needed to go to MSF hospital.

他们从A地到B地，哪里来的钱租用车辆呢？

Where would they get the money to get a vehicle from point a to point b?

我们需要确保消除许多阻碍援助进入的障碍，而这些障碍是可以被克服的。

We need to make sure that we eradicate a lot of the boundaries that allow for aid to access, and there are ways to do it.

难民们正在这样做。

And refugees are doing it.

像我这样的难民，实地的难民，我们在东南亚的团队。

Refugees like myself, refugees on the ground, our team in Southeast Asia.

作为人道主义行动者——无论是国际非政府组织、政策制定者还是联合国机构，还是作为关心此事的个人，我们该做些什么？

What should we be trying to do both as a humanitarian actors, whether it is international NGOs or not or policymakers or UN agencies, but as individuals who are concerned, what can we do?

就在同一天，有两百万人为加沙举行集会，而我却必须应对反罗兴亚运动将未抵达的船只驱离的事件。

2,000,000 people went to rally for Gaza on the same day I had to respond to an anti Rohingya movement pushing boats away that weren't arriving.

一位罗兴亚女性向我们讲述了她的经历。

A Rohingya woman, she gave us a testimony.

就在同一天，她的船被反罗兴亚运动驱离了。

Her boat was pushed away on the same day by anti Rohingya movements.

顺便说一句，这件事在印度尼西亚全网皆知。

It was all over the news, by the way, in Indonesia.

这些是反罗兴亚的穆斯林组织。

These are Muslim anti Rohingya movements.

她不得不把两岁的孩子扔进海里，因为孩子在船上饿死了。

She had to throw her two year old in the ocean because her two year old died from starvation of the boat.

她身边还带着另一个幼儿。

Then she had another toddler with her.

她登岸后返回，向我们和BBC提供了证词。

She disembarked, came back, and she gave us the testimony and to BBC.

这本可以避免。

This was preventable.

很多这样的事情本可以避免。

A lot of this is preventable.

我们必须指出这种双重标准，这到底是怎么回事？

And we need to call out this double standard because what's with that?

当我们都是穆斯林兄弟姐妹时，为什么我们要对人性有所选择？

Why are we being selective with humanity when we are all Muslim brothers and sisters?

当这场种族灭绝事件发生在距离马来西亚仅三小时的地方时，我们理应获得同等的支持和同等的公众关注，我不会接受任何其他说法。

When this genocide is only three hours away from Malaysia, we deserve the same amount of support, the same amount of public noise, and I will not accept anything else.

毫无疑问。

Unequivocally.

当然。

Absolutely.

这种事绝不能发生，也不该发生，我们不应允许它在巴勒斯坦、若开邦或任何地方发生。

This cannot happen, should not happen, and we shouldn't allow it to happen, neither in Palestine nor in Rakhine nor anywhere.

我常听到的借口是缺乏新闻和信息。

A lot of the excuses I hear is because it's lack of news, lack of information.

但实际上，我们还需要解决这个问题，因为信息并不缺乏。

Actually, we need to also tackle that because there isn't a lack of information.

只需在谷歌上搜索‘罗兴亚种族灭绝’，就能找到从头到尾的大量信息。

A simple Google typing Rohingya genocide will give you a plethora of information from start to end.

我意识到，多了解一些情况是非常重要的一件事。

I realize that learning more is one significant thing.

但还剩下什么？

But what else?

我们至少能做些什么来产生影响？

How can we try at least to make a difference?

你需要在公共场合持续谈论这件事，发表评论，进行现实中的对话。

You need to keep talking about it publicly, post comments, real life conversations.

当罗兴亚人被指责或去人性化时，你需要站出来反驳。

You need to push back when Rohingya are blamed or dehumanized.

我在东南亚看到了这种情况，每当罗兴亚人被不断指责为他们自身遭遇的罪魁祸首时，我都感到无比疲惫。

And I see this in Southeast Asia, and I get so tired of it when Rohingya are constantly being blamed for what's happening to us.

这正是一个受迫害群体最不需要的东西。

And that's the last thing that a group of persecuted people need.

联合国已经称罗兴亚人为全世界最受迫害的群体。

The UN has called the Rohingya the most persecuted people in the entire world.

这并不是我说的。

This is not from me.

这是联合国的说法。

This is from the UN.

支持像我这样的罗兴亚人主导的团体在实地开展工作，质疑拘留、突袭和关押儿童的行为。

Support Rohingya led groups like mine doing work on the ground, question detention, raids, and locking up of children.

在马来西亚，今天有超过2000名罗兴亚儿童被拘留，而政府不允许任何人进入，甚至包括无国界医生组织。

In Malaysia, today, more than 2,000 Rohingya children are detained, and the government does not allow anybody to enter, not even MSF.

即使感到不适，也要向议员和政府部门施压，在缅甸大使馆举行抗议，这非常重要。

Pressure MPs, ministries even when it's uncomfortable, protest at the Myanmar embassy, and this is really important.

揭露背后助长暴力的军火贸易和政治联系，并挑战日常的种族主义。

Connect the arms business and political ties behind the violence, and challenge the everyday racism.

对于其他种族灭绝事件，人们所做的一切，我们都需要持续的坚持、压力和拒绝沉默。

Literally everything that people have been doing for other genocides, we need the consistency, pressure, and refusing silence.

很多人说，我们不为罗兴亚人发声，因为加拿大和美国已经将此认定为种族灭绝。

A lot of people say, oh, we don't speak up about the Rohingya because Canada and America have recognized this as a genocide.

所以你们不需要我们的支持。

So you you don't need our support.

但他们对此什么也没做。

But they didn't do anything about it.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，即使美国和加拿大已经将此认定为种族灭绝，也不意味着种族灭绝已经停止。

So just because The US and Canada has recognized this as a genocide, it doesn't mean the genocide is still not occurring.

我们阿拉伯语里有句话：空谈无用。

We have a saying in Arabic, talking is cheap.

行动才是 costly 的。

Actions are expensive.

对。

Correct.

我到处都能听到这种说法，甚至在我们的社交媒体上也是如此。

And I hear this everywhere, even on our social media.

比如，我们不需要谈论罗兴亚人，因为你们没有得到美国和加拿大的资助，但巴勒斯坦却得到了美国的资助。

Like, we don't need to speak about Rohingya because you're not being funded by The US and Canada, but Palestine is being funded by The US.

这就是种族灭绝的非此即彼。

This is the either or of genocide.

这完全不合逻辑。

It's just illogical.

没错。

Exactly.

现在这种情况非常普遍。

It's very common now.

我一直在听到这种说法，尤其是与美国的关联。

I've been hearing this, especially the connection to The US.

如果非要说的话，当一个成功的运动凸显了其中一个时，它应该成为我们关注每一个的契机。

If anything, when you have a successful movement that highlights one, it should be a vehicle for us to highlight every.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

这正是我的巴勒斯坦朋友们为我所做的，我发自内心地感谢他们。

And this is what my Palestinian friends have done for me, and I truly thank them from the bottom of my heart.

Nur，非常感谢你参与我们的节目。

Nur, thank you very much for being with us.

非常感谢你们邀请我，请继续为罗兴亚人的困境发声。

Thank you so much for having me, and please continue to platform the plight of the Rohingya.

感谢您收听《重新思考人道主义》。

Thank you for listening to Rethinking Humanitarianism.

我们的节目由Levi Sharp制作、编辑和混音。

Our show is produced, edited, and mixed by Levi Sharp.

编辑监督由Erwin Loy提供。

Editorial oversight provided by Erwin Loy.

如果您有任何问题或评论，可以发送邮件至podcast@thenewhumanitarian.org。

If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at podcast@thenewhumanitarian.org.

请在您收听播客的平台为我们评分并订阅。

Please rate and subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts.

同时，成为The New Humanitarian的会员，帮助我们继续从危机中心进行报道。

Also, becoming a member of the new humanitarian to help us continue reporting from the heart of crisis.

前往 www.thenewhumanitarian.org 了解更多信息。

Go to www.thenewitarian.org to find out more.