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所以我在读这本书的时候有了很多顿悟。
So I had y'all many revelations reading this book.
关键问题不在于你擅长什么，而在于你被赋予了什么天赋。
The key question is not what you are good at, but what are you encoded for.
是的。
Yep.
朋友们，这是一种看待你生活的不同方式。
Y'all, it's a different way of looking at your life.
不是你擅长什么，是的。
Not what are you good at Yep.
而是你被赋予了什么天赋。
But what you are encoded for.
大家好。
Hi, everybody.
我很高兴能在这里参加奥普拉播客。
I'm so glad to be with you here on the Oprah podcast.
而且，天哪，今天能让你向坐在我身边的这位男士学习，我真是太兴奋了。
And, woo, am I excited today for you to learn from the man who's sitting with me.
吉姆·柯林斯是一位著名的商业作家。
Jim Collins is a renowned business writer.
他是一位研究者，出版了多本著作，其中包括他的纽约时报排名第一的畅销书。
He is a researcher whose many books, including his number one New York Times bestseller.
如果你从事商业，你一定读过他的书《从优秀到卓越》。
If anybody's in business, you've read his book, Good to Great.
但他表示，他最近花费十年时间进行的研究几乎颠覆了他所有的信念，这项研究最终凝结成这部开创性的新书——《如何度过一生》。
But he says his most recent research project that he spent ten years working on turned almost everything that he believes on its head, and that research has now culminated in this groundbreaking new book, What to Make of a Life.
在我们开始之前，我想说，当我第一次读《从优秀到卓越》的时候，嗯。
And before we get started, I wanted to say that when I first read Good to Great Mhmm.
记得吗？
Remember?
我记得。
I do remember.
我想大概是2004年。
I think it was around 2004.
就是那时候。
It was exactly that.
是吗？
Was it?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我被它深深激励，于是请你来芝加哥为我整个团队——几百号人——做演讲。
I was so charged up by it that I asked you to come to Chicago and speak to my entire staff, hundreds of people.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我无法告诉你，我有多少次说过，让我们直面那个‘是的’。
And I can't tell you how many times I've said, let's confront the Yeah.
证明那个‘哦，是的’。
Proof of Oh, yeah.
这些年来，我无数次被那本书深深激励。
So so many times over the years, I was so inspired by that book.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
对。
Yes.
看到你真是太好了
And it's wonderful to see
再次见到你，真高兴再次见到你。
you again, wonderful to see you again.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢你特地来到我的前门廊。
Thank you for coming all the way to my front porch.
这是一处非常棒的前门廊。
It's a very it's a wonderful part front porch.
吉姆·柯林斯是一位商业作家、多产的研究者和作者。
Jim Collins is a business writer, prolific researcher, and author.
他最著名的作品是畅销书《从优秀到卓越》，全球销量达五百多万册，成为许多商业领袖的“圣经”。
He is best known for his runaway bestseller, Good to Great, which sold 5,000,000 copies worldwide and became like a bible for many business leaders.
在他的新书《如何度过一生》中，吉姆邀请读者思考自己独特的技能与天赋，并认识到人生重大转折的内在价值。
In his new book, What to Make of a Life, Jim asks readers to think about their own unique skills and natural gifts and to recognize the intrinsic value of major life transitions.
他指出，你擅长的事情，可能与你与生俱来的天赋和热情所驱动的事情截然不同。
He makes the distinction that what you are good at may be very different from what you are wired to do with your unique innate abilities and passions.
他希望帮助你回答这个问题：你的人生准则是什么？
He hopes to help you answer this question: What is your code for what to make of your own life?
我们在这档播客中经常探讨什么造就了有意义的人生。
We often ask the question here on on this podcast of what makes a meaningful life.
我必须说，我被深深吸引了。
And I just have to say, was I was intrigued.
我深受启发。
I was inspired.
这本书中的每一个故事，以及你研究和分析什么造就了有意义人生的方式，都让我着迷。
I was fascinated by every story in this book and the way you researched and the way you analyzed what makes a meaningful life.
这本书的核心正是如此。
That's what this book is all about.
对于你所访谈的每一位杰出人物。
For all the notable people that you talk to.
我想对大家说这句话。
And this is what I wanna say to you all.
无论你身处何地，处于人生的哪个阶段，这本书都适用于你，因为我们每个人都有自己的人生。
No matter where you are, what stage you are in this your life, this book is going to apply to you because we all have a life.
我们都希望拥有有意义的人生。
We all want to have meaningful lives.
我期待这本书成为畅销书，因为我觉得它应该放在每个人的床头。
And I look forward to watching this become a bestseller because I think this is a book that should be on people's bedside.
你知道，你去读它，然后一遍又一遍地回来重读。
You know, you go and you read it, and you come back to it and come back to it.
你是怎么想到‘什么造就了有意义的人生’这个想法的？
Why did you come up with this idea for what makes a meaningful life?
我喜欢这个书名，《如何理解人生》。
I love that title, What to Make of a Life.
是的。
Yeah.
有趣的是，很长一段时间里我都没有想好书名。
You know, what's interesting too is that for a long time I didn't have the title.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我担心我们永远无法出版，因为我永远找不到这个
So I was afraid we'll never publish because I'll never find the
标题。
title.
是的。
Yes.
但它其实藏在正文里。
And but it was buried in the text.
你知道，有趣的是，我觉得有些人会感到惊讶，因为你知道，我一直以来都在研究公司等等，那为什么我会去思考人生这个问题呢？
You know, what's interesting is I think some people are going to be surprised because I you know, I've done all this stuff studying companies and so forth, and that, well, why am I looking at the question of life?
正如你从书中读到的，这对我而言有着非常深层的个人根源。
And as you know from reading, it just has really deep personal seeds for me.
在书中，吉姆将人生低谷描述为重大人生转折的时刻。
In the book, Jim describes cliffs as a time of major life transitions.
他将迷茫期解释为低谷之后通常随之而来的困惑与不确定阶段。
He explains fog as the period of confusion and uncertainty that typically follows a cliff.
吉姆认为，处于状态意味着你与自己的天赋相契合。
Jim believes being in frame means you are in alignment with your natural gifts.
最后，他认为编码是你之所以为你的核心本质。
And finally, he sees encodings as the essence of what makes you you.
所以我想从这里开始。
So I wanna start here.
你讲了在夏威夷的故事。
You tell the story of being in Hawaii.
是的。
Yep.
是你妻子乔安妮
And it was your wife, Joanne
对。
Yeah.
种下了这个想法。
Who seeded the idea Mhmm.
为了研究人们如何度过人生中的难关。
For studying how people move through their cliffs in life.
没错。
That's right.
你能给我们讲讲铁人三项的故事吗？
So can you tell us the Iron Man story?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，乔安和我现在已经结婚四十五年了。
So, Joanne, we've we've been married forty five years now.
在上世纪八十年代，乔安是一位世界级运动员。
And back in the 1980s, Joanne was a world class athlete.
有一种叫作铁人三项的赛事。
And there's this thing called the Ironman.
当然，我们都了解铁人三项是什么。
And of course, that's We all know what the Ironman is.
是的。
Yeah.
铁人三项是。
Ironman is.
乔安不仅仅参加铁人三项，她是为了夺冠而参赛。
And Joanne was not just doing the Ironman, she was competing to win.
她天生就非常适合这项运动。
And she was so wonderfully made for it.
她本性就是竞争者，是一位非凡的运动员，身体条件也完美契合这项运动。
She's a competitor by nature, an incredible athlete, so well in frame with it.
但在她1985年赢得世界冠军的那场比赛中，她一直带着旧有的腿筋伤势。
But in her 1985 race, where she did win the world championship, she had this lingering hamstring injury.
那场比赛实际上非常精彩，因为距离终点还有10英里时，她已经领先了十分钟。
And in that race, actually, that was an amazing thing to watch because she had this ten minute lead with about 10 miles to go.
你对那场赛事的描写如此优美。
You write of that so beautifully.
哦。
Oh.
她当时领先了大约十分钟。
She had, like, a ten minute lead.
然后领先了九分钟。
And then a nine minute Nine minute lead.
接着领先了八分钟。
And then eight minute lead.
没错。
Exactly.
但她的腿筋伤势开始发作，当然她还是赢了比赛，但只领先了大约九十秒。
And the hamstring caught up, and she ended up, of course, winning the race, but by only about ninety seconds.
最重要的是，她的腿筋伤势从未痊愈。
And the main thing is the hamstring injury never healed.
而她身上正是有这样一件事定义了她。
And here she had this thing that defined her.
她天生就非常适合这项运动。
She was so beautifully made for.
她做这件事时无比精湛。
She was so exquisite at doing it.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而这场伤病却将它从她手中夺走。
And it was being ripped away from her by this injury.
是的。
Yeah.
所以有一天早上，我们坐在厨房的小桌子旁，她只是突然倒吸了一口气。
And so one morning, we're sitting at our little kitchen table, and she said simply, just gasped.
那是一声倒吸。
It was a gasp.
是的。
Yeah.
她说，我感觉自己正在死去，因为这件事定义了她。
She said, I feel like I'm dying because this thing that defined her.
想象一下，如果你再也无法进行任何对话。
Imagine if you could never have another conversation.
对吧？
Right?
你会觉得我正在死去。
You'd feel like I'm dying.
是的。
Yeah.
我无言以对。
And I had no answer.
她生命中的一个阶段正在结束。
One phase of her life was ending.
我想，这就是人们经历悬崖时刻的时候——你所熟知的生活以某种根本的方式改变了，某些不可逆转的事情发生了，你不得不面对这个问题：既然这一切已经结束，既然这一切已如此彻底地改变，我该如何重新定义我的人生？
And I think that's when the seed of people go through cliffs where life as you knew it has changed in some fundamental way, something inalterable has happened, and you have to confront the question, well, now what to make of a life now that that's done, now that that's over, now that this is so changed under my feet?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这就是通过他们人生中的悬崖来审视这些人的起点。
And I think that's when the seed of looking at these people through the lens of their cliffs.
是的。
Yes.
我如此喜欢这本书的原因就在于它展示了一个又一个故事，没有人能不经历人生悬崖就走过一生。
That's why I love this book so much is because it's it it demonstrates story after story that nobody gets through life without a cliff.
没有人。
No one.
我们研究的任何人都是如此。
No one we studied anyways.
你们研究的没有人。
No one you studied.
是的。
Yeah.
我得出结论，没有人能不经历人生低谷而走过一生。
And and and and I conclude that nobody gets through life without a cliff.
没错。
That's right.
所以，如果你正在生活，你就一定会遇到人生低谷。
So if you if you're living a life, you're gonna have a cliff.
因此，关键在于不仅要为悬崖来临时该做什么做好准备。
And so the thing is to be prepared for not not only be prepared for what you do when the cliff comes.
没错。
That's right.
让我们回到你的第一个低谷。
So let's go back to your first cliff.
你开始思考：如何度过这一生。
You begin What to Make of a Life.
想到你回去看望父亲，我就忍不住动情。
It makes me emotional thinking about you going back to visit your father.
那我们从这个故事开始吧。
So let's start with that story.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
你能给我们讲一个你在
Can you tell us a story when you
上高中时的
were in
故事吗？
high school?
我坐了很长一段巴士
I You took a long bus ride
是的，我确实去过。
I sure do.
去看望你的父亲。
To visit your father.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我认为这一切最深层的根源都要追溯到那时。
So so I think the real the deepest seeds of this go back to that.
我父亲
I my father
想到你小时候的样子，我感到非常动情。
That makes me so emotional thinking about you as a young boy.
哦，是的。
Oh, was.
而我父亲，我多么渴望我的父亲能像个父亲一样。
And and my dad I so desperately wanted my father to be a father.
他曾在20世纪60年代的海达什贝里中期带着我们去了旧金山，结果那不仅是一个‘爱之夏’，也是一段充满暴力的时光——最终，我妈妈带着我、我弟弟和我自己回到了我们原来的地方——科罗拉多州的博尔德。
And he had taken us off to San Francisco in the middle of the Hay Dashberry in the 1960s, and it ended up not just a summer of love, it was also a violent my mom finally took me and my brother and myself back to our back to Boulder where we'd come from, Colorado.
我们住在一间冰冷的地下室里，连圣诞树都没有，但是
We lived in this ice cold basement, and we didn't have a Christmas tree, but
所以你妈妈决定——不管你们有多疯狂，我独自当母亲会过得更好。
So your mom had decided- whatever your craziness is, I'm gonna be better off being a single mother.
是的。
Yeah.
而且
And
她带着两个男孩离开了。
she took the boys and And left.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
妈妈只是在这间冰冷的地下室里尽力而为。
Mom's just doing the best she can in this really cold basement.
但在这整个期间，我始终抱有一线希望，非常渴望父亲能重新出现。
And this entire time, though, I just had this, I really hoped, desperately hoped my father would reappear.
每个孩子不都是这样吗？
Doesn't every kid?
是的。
Yeah.
就是想要一个父亲。
It's like, want a father.
是的。
Yeah.
所以上高中初期，我进行了一次小小的朝圣之旅。
And so in early high school, I made this little pilgrimage down.
我父亲住在新墨西哥州一间泥土地面的泥砖小屋子里。
My father was living in an adobe hut with a dirt floor in New Mexico.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我那时有一种浪漫的幻想。
And I had this kind of romantic idea.
我当时有个想法，打算在感恩节前后带点东西去。
Like, I had this thought, I'm gonna bring it was around Thanksgiving.
我要给他带一只火鸡。
I'm gonna bring him a turkey.
所以我弄了一只，你当时多大？
And so I got this How old were you?
那时候刚上高中，大概是十年级吧，差不多就是那时候。
It was, like, early high school, maybe, like, tenth grade, I think, is basically what it was.
15岁。
15.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
于是我弄了一只预先包装好的火鸡。
And I got this prepackaged turkey.
还有你
And you
你能想象到我。
can picture me.
对吧？
Right?
我从科罗拉多坐灰狗巴士一路南下到新墨西哥，去的是那个泥土地面、有木炉的Adobe Hub。
And I I get on this Greyhound bus from Colorado down to New Mexico, and I'm going down to to the Adobe Hub with the dirt floor and the wood stove.
我心中有着一种浪漫的想象，是的。
And I had this romantic image that Yeah.
我会带上这只火鸡。
I would bring this turkey.
我和父亲会在木炉里一起烤它。
My father and I would cook it in the wood stove.
我的父亲会以父亲的身份出现。
My father would emerge as a father.
我不知道会
And I don't know gonna
这么高兴你带着火鸡来。
be so happy that you're bringing the turkey.
没错。
Exactly.
吉姆，你写得真美。
And you write it so beautifully, Jim.
这就是我这么感动的原因，因为我读的时候觉得，哦，这就像电影里的一个场景。
That's why I'm so emotional because as I was reading it, I thought, oh, this is like a scene out of a movie.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这样。
It's yeah.
电影中不愉快的部分。
Not a happy part of the movie.
是的。
Yeah.
然后我到了那里，让我印象最深的是整个周末，我父亲从未问过我任何关于我的事情，至少我想不起来。
And so and then and I get there, and what's so etched in my mind is that whole weekend, my father never asked a question about me that I can recall.
他整个周末主要都在谈论他妈妈让他过得有多艰难，是的。
And he mainly spent the weekend talking about how hard his mom had made his life Yeah.
还试图让我劝她给他钱。
And trying to get me to convince her to give him money.
所以你是他的儿子。
So he you're you're you're the son.
你回去见你父亲。
You go back to see your father.
你满怀期待地去见父亲，但他却只关心怎么让你妈妈——我奶奶——给他钱。
You're excited to see your father, and he's like, how to get your mom My grandma.
他妈妈。
His mom.
是的。
Yeah.
给她钱。
To give him money.
给她钱。
To give him money.
对。
Yeah.
就在那时，我有了一个彻底醒悟的时刻。
And I I had this that's when I had this shattering realization.
永远不会有一个父亲在那里。
There will never be a father there.
当我坐上回科罗拉多北部的巴士时，对我来说，我的父亲就在他还活着的时候去世了。
And when I got back on that bus going back north to Colorado, that's when, for me, my father died while he was still alive.
那就是大海。
And I and that was the sea.
就像我，我，我，我是什么？
Just like I'm I'm I'm I'm what?
一个15岁的孩子之类的。
A 15 year old kid or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
我望着那片生活的迷雾。
And I'm looking out at at sort of the fog of life.
我不知道该怎么做。
I have no idea how to do it.
我没有男性榜样。
I have no male role models.
我不知道如何在这个世界上找到自己的方向，该如何度过这唯一的一生。
I have no sense for how you find your way in the world, what to do with a single life.
你只有一次机会。
You only get one of them.
我就这样毫无指引地走进了默克公司。
And I was just heading out into the Merck completely unguided.
我想，那时我作为一个15岁的孩子，正试图理解人生的意义，但我完全不知道该怎么做。
And I think that's when to see like, I I was trying to figure out what to make of a life as a 15 year old kid, and I had no idea.
我根本不知道该如何产生一个想法。
I had no idea how to have an idea.
所以，你在第154页关于悬崖写了些什么？
So here's what you write about cliffs on page one fifty four.
你说，人生的悬崖可以有多种形式。
You say the cliffs of life can take many forms.
你们这些在听和看我们讲话的人，或许能在这些形式中看到自己的影子，是的。
And those of you who are listening and watching to us, you may recognize yourself in some of these forms Yeah.
在我们研究过的生活和我们自己的生活中。
In the lives we studied and in our own lives.
这里有一份可能冲击人生的悬崖的简短清单。
Here's a short list of possible cliffs that can hit a life.
哀悼一段重要关系的结束。
Mourning the end of a significant relationship.
是的。
Yep.
经历个人财务的剧烈变化、应对健康问题或诊断、被自然灾害打乱、被解雇或裁员、发现你的工作、职业需求枯竭、发现重要的人不可信赖。
Experiencing a dramatic change in personal finances, dealing with a health event or diagnosis, feeling upended by a natural disaster, getting fired or laid off, seeing demand for your work, job, profession dry up, discovering that someone important is untrustworthy.
天啊。
Oh my god.
背叛，嗯。
Betrayals Mhmm.
对人们来说，这些真的是悬崖。
Really are cliffs for people.
因商业或职业挫折而陷入混乱、失去生命中极其重要的人、告别一个定义人生的角色或无法复制的经历，或任何一种突然意识到人生某一阶段已经结束的情形。
Reeling from a business or professional setback, losing an incredibly important person in your life, leaving behind a life defining role or impossible to replicate experience, or any version of waking up to the fact that one phase of life has come to an end.
没错。
That's right.
你已经意识到，根本不存在没有悬崖的人生。
You've determined there's no such thing as a cliff less life.
是的。
Yeah.
但正如你从材料中了解到的，我们曾试图寻找没有悬崖的人生，结果却失败了，于是我就得出结论：悬崖就是我们自身。
But we even as you know from from the material, we tried to find cliff less lives to And and we we were unsuccessful, and that's when I concluded cliffs are us.
我们其实都有悬崖。
We actually we all have them.
而且，悬崖也可能是积极的。
And there can also be positive cliffs too.
有些悬崖是你达成某个目标后，那一段人生便告一段落。
There can be cliffs where you achieve something and that part of life is over.
所以，对于所有正在观看和聆听我们的人，根本不存在没有悬崖的人生，是的。
So for everyone who's watching and listening to us, no such thing as a cliffless life Yep.
当悬崖来临时，你该做什么。
Is what you do when the cliff comes.
没错。
That's right.
当你到达悬崖时。
When you get to the cliff.
没错。
That's right.
你写道，很多人会陷入你所说的迷雾中。
And you write that a lot of people move into what you call fog.
是的。
Yeah.
还记得我们听到演员迈克尔·J·福克斯患上帕金森病的那一刻吗？
Remember the moment we heard actor Michael J.
福克斯患上帕金森病？
Fox had Parkinson's disease?
嗯。
Mhmm.
他拥有辉煌的职业生涯，先是出演情景喜剧《家族的纽带》，然后是票房大卖的《回到未来》系列，还有更多作品。
He'd had this giant career, first with sitcom Family Ties, and then the blockbuster Back to the Future series and so much more.
我觉得你在这部《如何理解人生》中向我们展示的这一点非常有趣，是的。
And I thought it was so interesting how you showed us in What to Make of a Life Yeah.
从他被诊断出患病到向公众公开，中间相隔了七年，是的。
That it was seven years from the time he was diagnosed to the time he actually told the public Yeah.
而在这整个期间，他基本上一直处于迷茫状态。
And that he was in a fog basically that whole time.
谈谈这个。
Talk about that.
所以我期待看到一些片段。
So I expected clips.
对吧？
Right?
是的
Yeah.
你期待看到片段。
You expected clips.
期待片段是因为研究设计就是这样。
Expected clips because it was kind of the study design.
我当时在观察人们，把他们和片段进行匹配等等。
I was looking at people matching them at clips, etcetera.
我真正没想到的是，在像诊断这样的事件发生后，出现这种迷茫状态的情况如此普遍。
What I really didn't expect was the prevalence of fog where something happens like a diagnosis.
或者可能，我觉得你可能见过凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆，对吧？
Or probably, I think you might have met Katherine Graham, right?
对。
Yes.
当凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆-
When Katherine Graham-
我非常喜欢凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆。
I love Katherine Graham.
天哪。
Boy.
你怎么可能不爱凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆呢。
How can you not love Katherine Love Katherine Graham.
她丈夫因躁郁症自杀后，她突然间不得不接手这家报纸。
And she loses her husband to manic depression, takes his own life, and all of a sudden she has the newspaper on her hands.
我意识到，在经历重大打击之后，我们会陷入一段迷茫期——感到迷失、困惑、不知所措、晕头转向、充满不确定。
And what I realized is that in the wake of a cliff, we observed these periods of fog where you're lost, you're befuddled, you're confused, you're disoriented, you're reeling, you're uncertain.
是的。
Yeah.
当我结束《奥普拉脱口秀》的时候，我也经历过这样的阶段。
That happened to me when I ended the Oprah show.
是在一个好吧。
Was in a Okay.
那种迷茫状态真的很有趣。
Fog for a that's very interesting, actually.
所以我想起来了，我们刚认识的时候，你就在思考这件事。
So that and I remember when we first met, you were contemplating that.
是的。
Yeah.
然后你决定跃过那道悬崖。
And then you decided to go over the cliff.
对。
Yep.
你自己的悬崖。
Your own cliff.
对。
Yep.
对吧？
Right?
今天我们在这里。
Here we are today.
你已经走出了迷雾。
You're on the other side of the fog.
对吧？
Right?
但那片迷雾，不知你介不介意我问一下，那迷雾是什么样的？
But the fog do you mind me asking what the fog was like?
那迷雾糟糕透了。
The fog was was terrible.
我当时在努力琢磨，昨晚我还跟剧组聊了这件事。
I was trying to figure out I was just talking with the crew last night.
我们在讨论剧中的事情、接下来的章节，以及我之前在做的那些事，是的。
We're talking about the things in the shows and the next chapters and the things that I was doing Yeah.
我在努力思考该在哪里画上句号，因为我很清楚，是时候结束这部剧了。
Trying to figure out where do I land this because I knew for certain that it was time to end the show.
是的。
Yes.
我犯的最大错误就是没有等待。
And the big mistake that I made was that I did not wait.
我没有花时间，嗯。
I did not take the time Mhmm.
等一年。
To wait a year
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后弄清楚。
And figure it out.
我直接从一件事跳到试图建立一个网络。
I went from one thing right into trying to build a network
嗯。
Mhmm.
同时，我正在结束这个节目的时候，还试图建立一个网络。
And trying to build a network at the same time that that I was ending the show.
所以我陷入了一片迷茫，不知道该做什么样的节目，又该如何运营一个完整的网络？
And so I was in a fog of what do you program, and how do you program a whole network?
这和每天做一档节目完全不一样。
It's not the same thing as doing a show every day.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我认为，这本书最希望人们能获得的一点，就是对自己身处迷茫时的自我同情。
And I think one of the things that I really, really want people to gain from this book is the the self compassion for being in the fog.
首先，我们会经历一个悬崖。
So first of we'd be going through a cliff.
我们每个人都会遇到这样的时刻。
We're all gonna have them.
迷茫不是缺陷。
Fog's not a defect.
我的意思是，你是奥普拉。
I mean, you're Oprah.
你也经历过迷茫。
You had fog.
是的。
Yeah.
我制造过迷茫。
I made a fog.
还有凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆。
And Catherine Graham.
凯瑟琳·格雷厄姆也经历过迷茫。
It's Catherine Graham had fog.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以你经历了这些阶段，我们学到的一件事是，我需要在迷雾中一步步缓慢前进。
And so that you have these periods And your experience, one of the things we learned is I need to move in small steps through the fog.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，这是我身陷迷雾后学到的。
Well, this is what I learned once I was in the fog.
对。
Yeah.
你所说的那些小步骤，确实如此。
Exactly what you say about simplex steps.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我很好奇。
So I'm curious.
所以当我身处迷雾中时，我意识到走出迷雾的方法是，迈出下一步正确的行动。
So once I was in the fog, I realized the way to get out of the fog Yeah.
就是迈出下一步正确的
Is to take just the next right
行动。
move.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，你知道的，我没有在节目结束后迈出一小步，而是做了一个巨大的跳跃。
So it I, you know, I took this big leap instead of taking a simple step right after the show.
是的。
Yeah.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
然后我做出了这个巨大的飞跃，现在我正试图弄清楚如何从中脱身。
And then I have this big leap, and now I'm trying to figure out how to get out of it.
是的。
Yeah.
下一步正确的行动是什么？
What is the next right move?
那是一个又一个简单的步骤。
And that was simple step after simple step after simple step.
没错。
That's right.
回到你最初想做这件事的原因，然后采取简单的步骤让自己走出来，你介意我问一下吗，是的。
Go back to the reason why you wanted to do it in the first place, and then take simple steps to get yourself out of And do you mind me Yeah.
我很好奇。
I'm curious.
你怎么知道雾气开始散去了？
How did you know when the fog had started to clear?
所以，我的意思是，会有一段迷茫的时期。
So, I mean, so there's this foggy period.
你最终会通过采取下一步的简单行动来度过这段时期。
You you eventually get to simple taking those next steps to get through it.
在某个时刻，你会意识到，迷雾渐渐散去了。
And at some point, you know, you might be you know, the fog kind of clears.
你花了多长时间才走到那一步？
How long did it take you to get there,
花了几年时间。
and how did a couple of years.
在你的情况中，是几年。
Couple years in your case.
几年时间。
Couple of years.
所以是几年。
So years.
花了我几年时间。
Took took me a couple of years.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
我当时只是在机械地工作，是的。
I was going through the motions of working and Yeah.
我还在面试、做各种事情，但总觉得不对劲。
Still doing interviews and doing things, but I I was still like, this doesn't feel right.
这感觉不对劲。
This doesn't feel right.
这感觉不对劲。
This doesn't feel right.
所以我到处奔波，之前我还有个节目，是的。
And so I was running around the so I went from having a show Yeah.
人们每天在节目中来找我，于是我决定，好了。
Where people came to me every day on the show, and I decided, okay.
不再继续了。
Done with that.
是的。
Yeah.
接下来的篇章，我正在全国范围内采访其他人。
Now the next chapter, I'm running around the country interviewing other people.
是的。
Yeah.
我带着团队走遍全国乃至全世界，但我还是觉得，这也不对劲。
I'm, like, taking the crew all around the country and around the world, and I was like, well, this doesn't feel right either.
所以，是的。
So yeah.
那时候，那种热情是什么时候开始消退的，还是
And when did did the fire dim at that time, or was
我的热情只是熄灭了。
it just My my fire dimmed.
我的热情让我觉得，这并不是发自内心、真诚的表达。
My fire it was like, this doesn't feel like this is coming from a truthful, authentic place for me.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我要结束这一切，去寻找下一件事。
And so I'm going to end this and figure out what is the next thing
该做什么。
to do.
你有没有意识到热情重新燃起的时刻？
Was there a time you knew the fire had come back?
其实，当我开始做这件事的时候。
Actually, when I started doing this.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
它一下子就回到了画面中。
It was right back in frame.
对。
Right.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Mhmm.
好的。
Okay.
所以我本可以出现在你的书房里。
So I could have been in your study.
哦，百分之百。
Oh, 100%.
我的意思是，我们只是在讨论你正在读哪一章。
I mean, we're just talking about what chapter you're in.
我们需要短暂休息一下。
We need to take a quick break.
接下来，吉姆解释说，没有人的人生会没有悬崖，他还详细讲述了如何应对悬崖之后不可避免的迷雾。
Next, Jim explains that no one has a life without cliffs, and he details the best way to work through the inevitable fog after a cliff.
本集《奥普拉播客》由Booking.com部分赞助。
This episode of the Oprah podcast is brought to you in part by booking.com.
如果你希望拓展你的度假租赁业务，这里就是你的不二之选。
If you're looking to grow your vacation rental business, this is the place to be.
Booking.com是全球下载量最大的旅行应用之一，这绝非偶然。
Booking.com is one of the most downloaded travel apps in the world, and for good reason.
自2010年以来，他们已帮助超过18亿名度假租赁客人找到住宿地点。
Since 2010, they've helped over 1,800,000,000 vacation rental guests find places to stay.
但关键是。
But here's the thing.
大多数度假租赁房东根本不知道他们可以在Booking.com上发布自己的房产。
Most vacation rental hosts don't even realize they can list their properties on booking.com.
如果你不在这个平台上，你的房源对全球数百万Booking.com旅行者来说基本上是看不见的。
And if you're not on the platform, your rental is basically invisible to millions of booking.com travelers worldwide.
毕竟，他们无法预订自己看不到的东西。
After all, they can't book what they can't see.
对吧？
Right?
当你在Booking.com上发布房源时，你的房产将被全球庞大的受众看到，而且操作极其简单。
When you list on booking.com, your property gets seen by a massive global audience, and it couldn't be any easier.
你只需短短十五分钟就可以完成房产注册。
You can register your property in as little as fifteen minutes.
近一半的房东在一周内就能获得第一笔预订。
Nearly half of hosts get their first booking within a week.
所以，如果你的度假租赁房源没有在Booking.com上架，就可能对数百万在该平台搜索的旅行者隐形。
So if your vacation rental isn't listed on booking.com, it could be invisible to millions of travelers searching the platform.
不要错失持续的预订和全球曝光机会。
Don't miss out on consistent bookings and global reach.
立即前往Booking.com，今天就开始你的房源上架。
Head over to booking.com and start your listing today.
在Booking.com上获得关注，获得预订。
Get seen, get booked on booking.com.
欢迎回到奥普拉播客。
Welcome back to the Oprah podcast.
我正在与畅销书作者吉姆·柯林斯交谈，讨论他全新的著作《如何看待人生》。
I'm talking with bestselling author Jim Collins about his extraordinary new book, What to Make of a Life.
这不正是那个问题吗？
Now isn't that the question?
我知道你一定会喜欢这本书。
I know you're gonna love this book.
我们继续吧。
Let's get back to it.
但我认为非常重要的是要再次强调，迷茫并不是一种缺陷。
But I think it's really important to reemphasize that the the fog is not a defect.
迷茫不是
Fog is not a
缺陷。
defect.
人们都会经历的。
That people go through.
没错。
That's right.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
That's right.
当你度过悬崖期之后。
When you have come through the cliff period.
是的。
Yep.
你如何能更快地走出迷雾？
And how do you get through the fog sooner?
你对这一点有什么最好的建议？
What would you say is the best advice for that?
人们可能会惊讶地发现，你花了好几年时间。
People might be surprised to know that it took you a couple of years.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
你一定已经把一切都想明白了。
You you must have it all figured out.
但要知道，这可能需要你几年时间。
But to know that it could take you a couple of years.
而根据我们研究中学到的方法，你通过采取这些步骤来度过难关，对吧？
And the way you get through what we based learned in the study is you take these steps, right?
你就像在迷雾中徘徊，如果你只是因为受不了迷雾的不适就想跳出去，比如，我讨厌待在迷雾里。
You're kind of wandering through the fog, and if you try to jump just because you want to get out of the fog, like, I'm uncomfortable in the fog.
我必须马上得到答案。
I've got to have an answer.
那你可能会直接跳上另一座悬崖。
You just might jump right off another cliff.
所以我的意思是，但如果你只是原地不动，你也什么都做不了。
And so I mean but if you just sit still, you don't go anywhere either.
所以这取决于
So it's a matter of
你得采取某种
You gotta take some kind of
行动。
action.
步骤。
Steps.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
步骤。
Steps.
我不知道雾的另一边有什么，所以我只关注眼前的东西。
I don't know what I don't know what's on the other side of the fog, So I just look around at what's right in front of me.
我就先走这一步。
I'll take this step.
一旦我坐下来，我会再环顾四周，然后迈出下一步，你知道的，迈出最明显的下一步，一步又一步，雾气就会逐渐散去。
And once I sit there, then I'll kinda look around again, and I'll take the next step, you know, taking the obvious next step, just step, step, step, and the fog gradually begins to clear.
但在那过程中，是的。
But while within that Yeah.
当你描述时，你又回到了这一点。
When you describe, you're back to this.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
所以我重新开始了，我实际上开始做超灵魂节目了。
So I started back I start I actually started doing super soul.
我开始采访思想领袖。
I started doing interviews with thought leaders.
是的。
Yeah.
因为这真正滋养了我的灵魂
Because that is what really feeds my soul
没错。
That's right.
它也激发了我的兴趣，而且这是我希望帮助人们过上更好生活的方式。
And feeds my interest, and the and it's what I wanna do to help people live better lives.
所以，尝试做其他类型的节目并不适合我。
So trying to do other kinds of programming was not working for me.
那么，在走出迷雾的过程中，尤其是当这个悬崖突然得令人措手不及时，最关键的是哪一部分呢？
And and what part of the path out of the fog, especially especially if the cliff is shatteringly unexpected.
是的。
Yes.
那时你可能会真的、真的迷失方向。
Then you can be really, really lost.
但书中的整个第一部分，你知道，都关于与你的内在编码相遇，那些东西
But the whole first part of the book, you know, has to do this thing with, you know, coming into frame with your encodings, the things that
好吧，这正是我现在想谈的。
really Well, that's what I wanna talk about now.
我们来谈谈编码吧。
Let's talk about encodings.
没错。
Exactly.
我认为关键是通过不断迭代，最终重新回到正轨。
And I think the key is you iterate to eventually get back in frame.
我特别喜欢你的故事，因为某种程度上，你走出去后又绕了回来。
And what I love about your story is, in a way, you went out and then you circled back.
绕了回来。
Circled back.
我确实做了这个绕回来的事。
I did the encircle back thing.
你确实做了。
You did.
是的
Yeah.
而现在是另一组了，但编码、保持在框架内，以及
And and now it's a different set, but the encodings, the the being in frame, and
好吧，我们来谈谈这个，让人们对我们要讨论的内容有所了解
Well, let's talk about that so people know what we're
谈论的内容。
talking about.
我在读这本书时有了许多顿悟。
So I had you all many revelations reading this book.
我感谢你，吉姆，为我们提供了一种新的语言，实际上解释了目标的完整性，因为我知道，大家，包括我自己，都过于强调这一点。
And I thank you, Jim, for giving us a new language, actually, for explaining the fullness of purpose because people, I know, put so much emphasis, you all do, and I have too.
每一场毕业演讲都在谈目标，目标，目标。
Every, you know, graduation speech is about your purpose, your purpose, your purpose.
我认为这本书中这一句至关重要。
And I think that this is a crucial line in the book.
你说得对。
You're right.
关键问题不在于你擅长什么
The key question is not what you are good at
嗯。
Mhmm.
而在于你被赋予了什么天赋？
But what are you encoded for?
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yep.
朋友们，这是一种看待你人生的不同方式。
Y'all, it's a different way of looking at your life.
不是你擅长什么，而是你被赋予了什么天赋。
Not what are you good at but what you are encoded for.
那么你能解释一下，编码和目标有什么不同吗？
So can you explain how is it different encoding versus purpose?
是的。
Yeah.
编码就像是我们拥有的那些潜能，需要通过生活的经历来发现。
So encodings are like these capacities we have that await discovery through the experiences of life.
你和我各自拥有一套编码。
And you and I have a you have a set of encodings.
我也有自己的一套编码。
I have a set of encodings.
我认为，我们大多数的编码在生命结束时都未能被发现。
And most of them, I think we will not discover when our life runs out.
我们只希望发现其中的一些。
We just hope to discover some of them.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而发生的情况就像一片星座，然后有一个画框。
And and that what happens is it's like a constellation, and then there's a window frame.
嗯。
Mhmm.
在任何给定的时刻，这个画框里要么只有少数编码透出光芒，要么它会转变，一大群编码会同时透过画框闪耀出来。
And at any given moment, there the frame is either not many encoding shining through or it shifts, and a whole bunch of encodings are shining through the frame.
它们被激活，就像突然一下就通了。
And they activate, and it's like it just clicks.
所以，有一个人，我知道你很欣赏，我迷上了研究托妮·莫里森。
So somebody who I know you love, I fell in love with studying Toni Morrison.
是的。
Yeah.
我真希望我能拥有你那样认识她的喜悦。
I I wish I had the joy that you had of knowing her.
哦。
Oh.
有但说
Having but talk
关于巨大的喜悦。
about the great joys.
其中之一
One of
巨大的喜悦。
great joys.
是的。
Yeah.
她一直热爱书籍，但当她拿起那支铅笔时
So she had always been about books, but when she took up that pencil
被编码为一位作家。
was encoded for being an author.
因此被编码为一位作家。
So encoded for being an author.
那一刻突然开窍了，就像‘砰’的一下。
And it was like, once it clicked, it was just like, bang.
她之前并没有
And she didn't
在那之前，她是一名编辑，为别人做事。
Prior to that, she was an editor and doing things for other people.
没错。
Exactly.
然后她开始写《最蓝的眼睛》，因为那是她最想读的一本书。
And then she started to write The Bluest Eye because it was a book that she mostly
她想读这本书。
She wanted to read.
为自己而读。
To read herself.
没错。
That's right.
她想，我要写这本书，是的。
And she thought, I'm gonna write this book Yep.
因为我想要读这本书，因为没人写关于黑人女孩的故事。
Because I wanna read this book because nobody's writing stories about black girls
没错。
That's right.
像这样的。
Like this.
所以我要写一本我想读的书。
So I'm gonna write a book that I would wanna read.
是的。
Yep.
当她开始写作时，她意识到自己不仅生来就是为了写作。
And then when she started writing, she realized that she was not only born to write.
她是被注定要写作的。
She was encoded to write.
完全就是命中注定。
Totally encoded.
而且她无法停止，这是我最喜欢的几个小片段之一，你知道的，我们就继续这个话题，但这个片段让我印象特别深刻。
And she couldn't there's one of my favorite little vignettes, you know, I I we'll just keep with the conversation, but it's just one that so sticks with me.
她在家写作时，用的是2号蒂康德罗加软芯铅笔。
She's she's at home writing with her number two Ticonderoga soft lead pencils.
对吧？
Right?
她最喜欢用这些有横线的纸张来写作。
That was what she loved to write with in these lined pieces of paper.
她正在写作，有一个句子非写出来不可。
And she's writing, she has this sentence that has to get out.
对吧？
Right?
当时她的一个儿子还是幼儿，走过来不小心把口水吐在了她的纸上。
And one of her son's toddler at the time, comes up and kinda spits up on her paper.
是的
Yeah.
她没有擦掉那口唾沫。
And and she doesn't wipe away the the spit.
她继续写，因为她想：我可以稍后再擦掉它，但这句话等不了。
She keeps writing because she's like, I can wipe that away later, but the sentence can't wait.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Right.
是的
Yeah.
这句话就在这里。
And the sentence is right here.
没错。
That's right.
我会丢失这句话。
I'm gonna lose the sentence.
不能丢失这
Can't lose the
句话。
sentence.
我都不想花时间去擦擦擦擦那些唾沫。
I don't wanna take the time to even wipe wipe wipe wipe the spittle.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Exactly.
我们就说这件事是她四十多岁时开始的。
And and and let's just say this started in her forties.
她发生这件事时是四十多岁。
She was in her forties when this happened.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
而且实际上，我认为这项研究中一个非常鼓舞人心的点在于，你可以在人生的后期找到第一个创作契机或新的创作起点。
And and actually, I think that's one of the really uplifting things about this study is you can find either a first frame or new frames later in life.
所以这种观念——认为像托妮·莫里森这样的小说家，必须从18岁就开始写作——是不对的。
So this idea that somehow well, to be a novelist like Toni Morrison, you must have had to been doing it, like, from you were 18.
她是在四十多岁时开始写作的，你知道的，那正是她开始写作的年纪。
She was in her forties, as you know, and that's when she started writing.
对她来说，这是一种发现：我是个作家。
And it was a discovery for her that I'm a writer.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
然后她就再也没有停下过。
And then she never stopped.
对吧？
Right?
当她处于状态中，做着她被赋予的使命时，我会说，她一直做到实在无法继续为止。
When she was in frame, when she was doing what she was encoded for, I mean, she would do it until she simply couldn't anymore.
没错。
That's right.
写作是让她感到满足并给予她
Writing was the thing that fulfilled her and gave her
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说也是同样的情况。
And and the same thing for me.
我的意思是，我三岁、四岁的时候就开始在教堂里说话了。
I mean, I started speaking in the church when I was three, four years old.
是的。
Yeah.
那就是我获得认同的方式。
That's how I got my validation.
对。
Yeah.
我非常确定，是的。
I know for sure Yeah.
我知道我被赋予了沟通的使命，是的。
That I was encoded to communicate Yeah.
以我这种方式与人交流，并持续这条自我更新的轨迹，是的。
With people in the way that I do and to continue this trajectory of self renewal for myself Yep.
并帮助其他人也明白这一点。
And to help other people get it.
但这一切始于小时候在教会里背诵圣经经文。
But it started with little bible verses speaking in the church.
所以我在进行编码，没错。
So I am encoding That's right.
成为一个沟通者。
To be a communicator.
没错。
That's right.
被编码了。
Encoded.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种发现。
And it's a discovery.
对吧？
Right?
你可以看出，这就是优势与编码之间的不同之处。
You can that that's the thing that's different about a a strength versus an encoding.
你可以把你的编码转化为超级优势，但你也可以通过纯粹的意志力让自己在某件事上变得强大，是的。
You turn your encodings kind of into super strengths, but you can make yourself strong at something by just sheer willpower Yeah.
还有通过学习、练习或者其他方式。
And and study or practice or whatever.
编码是这些发现，当你遇到它们时，就像她拿起那支铅笔，或者你发现：我可以提问。
Encodings are these discoveries that when you hit them, it's like when she picked up that that pencil or when you discovered, I can ask a question.
我可以参与对话。
I can be in a conversation.
或者当约翰·格伦第一次坐上飞机时，飞机就像他手上的手套一样贴合。
Or when John Glenn got in an airplane for the first time, the aircraft was like a glove on his hand.
是的。
Yeah.
那只是一种延伸。
That just extension.
对。
Yeah.
你刚才说约翰·格伦和戈登·库珀，他们不仅是伟大的宇航员，而且天生就具备这种特质。
You you were saying John Glenn and Gordon Cooper that they were not just great astronauts, but encoded to be Totally.
我的意思是，我不知道你怎么样，但我很确定，如果我坐在一艘宇宙飞船顶部，或者在天空中驾驶战斗机被人追击、想把我击落，我的心率是不会降低的。
They I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm reasonably confident that if I were on top of a spaceship or I was in a in a fighter jet with somebody chasing me in the sky trying to knock me out of the sky, my heart rate doesn't go down.
对吧？
Right?
而约翰·格伦的心率，和他躺在沙发上看电视时差不多。
Theirs, John Glenn's heart rate was about the same as being on his couch watching TV.
戈登·库珀在被送入太空之前，
And Gordon Cooper, before they launched into space,
他睡了个午觉。
he took a nap.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你说得对。
You tell that's right.
他睡了个觉。
He took a nap.
睡个觉。
Take a nap.
所以，他们那种在极端紧张环境下保持冷静的特质——你可能下一秒就会丧命，却必须保持表现——这是一种天生的特质。
So that that that sense of their encoding to be calm under that incredible intensity of you actually might die the next moment, and you have to perform.
这是一种天赋。
That's an encoding.
然后他们你
And then they You
你甚至无法为此接受训练。
can't you can't even be trained for that.
它就是这样。
It just is.
是的。
Yeah.
它就是这样。
It just is.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，他们生命中最大的挑战就是面对这种状态的终结，并不得不寻找新的东西。
And then, of course, the great challenge in their life was the cliff of the end of that and had to find new things.
但当框架契合时，这些编码就是这样运作的。
But that's what encodings are when they click when the when the frame clicks.
当然，正如你之前描述的，你也会知道自己何时脱离了框架。
And then, of course, as you were describing earlier, you also know when you're out of frame.
对吧？
Right?
所以，同一个人在框架转换后，你现在离开了框架，这有点像停滞不前。
So the same person with the frame shifts and now you're out of frame is sort of languish.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而接下来的挑战是如何重新回到框架中，重新与这些编码对齐。
And and the challenge then is how to get back in frame, get back in frame with the encodings.
我很喜欢你谈到与托妮·莫里森的友谊时那种神采飞扬的样子。
I love how you light up about your friendship with Toni Morrison.
你有没有遇到过这样的作家？
Have you ever encountered a writer like that?
我的意思是，你最好做好进行深刻思维训练的准备。
Oh, I mean, you better be ready for some serious mental exercise.
我知道。
I know.
读完她的书《宠儿》后，我记得在电话簿里查过她的号码，或者打电话给NIACC（纽约）获取了她的电话。
When finished reading her book, Beloved, I remember looking her number up in the phone book or calling NIACC, New York and getting her phone number.
那时候人们的信息还都会被列在电话簿里。
That's just when people used to be listed.
以前可是有电话簿的，你们知道吗。
There used to be a phone book, y'all.
以前真有那种印着人们电话号码的电话簿。
And there used to be such a thing as a phone book with people's numbers in it.
总之我给她打了电话，说：莫里森女士，我刚读完您的书《宠儿》，这段阅读经历对我来说太非凡了。
Anyway and I called her, I said, miss Morrison, I just finished reading your book, Beloved, and I how extraordinary it was for me experience.
我说：但有人告诉过您，他们得反复琢磨每一个句子吗？
I said, but do people tell you they have to go over the sentences?
是的。
Yeah.
她停顿了一下，说：亲爱的，这正是阅读的含义。
And she said she paused and she said, well, that, my dear, is called reading.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
用那种语气。
In that voice.
用那种语气。
In that voice.
用那种语气。
In that voice.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你说我谈到她时眼睛会发亮，这真的很有趣，因为奥普拉秀最伟大的一课之一就是她说：‘当你看到我时，你的眼睛会发亮吗？’
I think it's so interesting that you would say that my eyes light up talking about her because one of the greatest lessons of the Oprah show was when she said, Do your eyes light up when you see me?
你看到我时，你的脸会发亮吗？
Do your face light up when you see me?
台下的所有母亲都倒吸了一口气。
All the mothers in the audience gasped.
有趣的是，当一个孩子走进房间时，无论是你的孩子还是别人的孩子，你的脸会发光吗？
And it's interesting to see when a kid walks in a room, your child or anybody else's child, do you does your face light up?
或者，他们正是在寻找这一点。
Or and that's what they're looking for.
当我的孩子们还小的时候，他们走进房间，我总是盯着他们看，检查他们有没有系好裤子、头发有没有梳好，或者袜子有没有拉上去。
When my children used to walk in the room when they were little, I looked at them to see if they had buckled their trousers, if their hair was combed, or if their socks were up.
所以你以为你的爱和深情体现在你对他们的关心上。
And so you think your affection and your deep love is on display because you're caring for them.
其实不是。
It's not.
当他们看到你时，看到的是一张挑剔的脸。
When they see you, they see the critical face.
现在又怎么了？
What's wrong now?
嗯。
Mhmm.
但后来，我试着让自己的表情流露出内心的真情。
But then if you let your as I tried from then on to let your face speak what's in your heart.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为当他们走进房间时，我真的很高兴见到他们。
Because when they walked in the room, I was glad to see them.
就这么简单。
It's just as small as that.
你知道，很多年后，有人告诉我，这改变了他们与孩子的互动方式。
You know, many years later, people told me that changed their interaction with their children.
是的。
-Yeah.
这在今天尤为重要，因为人们太沉迷于手机了，而孩子走进房间时...
Matter which is so important today because people are so, you know, engrossed in their phones, their kids coming in a room.
你根本就没有在场。
You're you're not present at all.
是的。
Yeah.
但你的眼睛会亮起来吗
But do your eyes light up
是的。
Yeah.
当我走进房间时，是的。
When I come into the room Yeah.
塔尼·莫里森女士。
Miss Toni Morrison.
对。
Yep.
哇。
Wow.
所以在第173页，你写道：如果父母对你应该做什么有期望，怎么办？
So on page one seventy three, you write, what if your parents have expectations for what you're supposed to do?
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你们中有些人正在经历这种情况，但他们的期望与你的内在编码并不相符。
I know some of you are going through this, but their expectations do not fit with your encodings.
如果遵循家庭的期望，压抑了你真正想做的事情，让你陷入迷茫，怎么办？
What if following the expectations of your family knocks on everything that you actually want to do in your life and sends you into the fog?
对。
-Yep.
如果这些期望让迷茫持续更久，不仅几年，而是几十年，甚至你的一生，怎么办？
-What if those expectations prolong the fog so that it lasts not just years, but maybe decades, or maybe even your entire life?
无论父母或其他人如何看待或认为你的内在编码应该是什么，你的编码就是你的编码。
Your encodings are your encodings regardless of what your parents or anyone else thinks they are or should be.
首要任务是信任你自己的内在编码。
And the task, first and foremost, is to trust your own encodings.
是的。
Yep.
我喜欢这一点。
I love that.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
但太多人活着只是为了满足别人的期望，或者他们以为别人应该有的期望。
But so many people are living their life based upon what somebody else's expectations are or what they think the expectation should be.
而我们应该问的问题是：我被赋予了什么样的天性？
And the question we should be asking is, what am I encoded for?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我想，有人问我一个问题，一个读过手稿早期版本的人问：发现自己的编码和信任自己的编码，哪个更重要？
And I think actually what's somebody asked me, somebody who'd read an early version of the manuscript asked the question, what is more important, discovering your encodings or trusting them?
哦。
Oh.
我越思考这个问题，因为我一直在研究人们的生活，我觉得最让我印象深刻的是，我们其实一直在不断收到关于自己编码的线索。
And the more I thought about that, because I've just been studying the lives, I think what really stands out to me is I think we're all getting clues all the time about our encodings.
对吧？
Right?
当我们遇到某件事时，就会觉得：哦，这个对上了。
We hit something and it's like, oh, that clicks.
这种感觉很自然。
That feels natural.
或者我特别想去做这件事。
Or I feel really drawn to do that.
不管那是什么，开战斗机、做音乐、唱歌、交谈， whatever it happens to be。
Whether whatever it happens to be, flying jets or doing music, singing, conversing, whatever it happens to be.
对吧？
Right?
然后还有一些声音在告诉你：你应该这样，你应该那样。
And then there are messages, voices that, well, but you should be this or you should be that.
我研究的所有人中，最让我印象深刻的是，当他们收到这些线索，感受到内在编码开始浮现时，最关键的是他们相信了这些信号。
And what really stood out to me about all the people that I studied is when they got those clues and when they felt those encodings starting to come through the window, the really critical thing was they trusted them.
他们相信了这些信号。
They trusted them.
他们相信了。
They them.
是的。
Yeah.
他们就这样一直走下去，虽然并不确定这些选择最终会带他们去向何方。
And they and they and they they didn't know where they were necessarily leading.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
并不是他们有明确的计划。
It's not that they had a plan.
是的。
Yeah.
他们并不能提前勾勒出未来五年、十年后自己会在哪里之类的蓝图。
It's not that they could sketch out and say, well, that'll leave me here in five years and ten years or whatever.
我只是必须去做这件事。
It was just, I have to do this.
我必须解开遗传学的谜题。
I have to solve genetics puzzles.
我必须对这些计算机感兴趣，就像格蕾丝·霍珀那样，或者我必须去飞行，不管是什么事情。
I'm really interested in these computers as Grace Hopper was, or I have to fly or whatever it is.
即使你的父母在说，我们刚才还在聊约翰·格伦。
And then even if your parents are saying we were talking earlier about John Glenn.
他们最初对他成为飞行员感到失望。
They were initially disappointed that he became an aviator.
首先，他们担心他可能无法幸存。
First of all, they were afraid he might not survive.
是的。
Right.
但另一方面，他们希望他能接手家族生意。
And but the other is they hoped he would come into the family business.
如果他没这么做，嗯。
If he didn't do that Mhmm.
他们希望他能成为一名医生。
That they he might become a doctor.
他实际上不得不说服他们，让他取得飞行员执照。
And and he actually had to convince them to let him get his pilot's license.
当他决定留在海军陆战队，进而成为喷气式战斗机飞行员，最终成为宇航员时，我认为他的父母最终当然为他感到非常自豪。
And then when he decided to stay in the Marine Corps and then go on and become a jet fighter pilot and eventually an astronaut, his parents, I think, ultimately were, of course, very proud of him.
但他们对他有不同的期望。
But they they had a different vision for him.
但当那些仪表在飞机中亮起时，他足够信任它们，以至于基本上说：我会遵循仪表的指示。
But what happened is when those encodings lit up when he was in that aircraft, he trusted them enough to basically say, I'm hewing to the encodings.
是的。
Yeah.
我信任它们。
I'm I'm trusting them.
如果有人问：那么计划是什么？
And if somebody were to say, well, what's the plan?
对。
Yeah.
答案可能是：我不知道计划是什么。
The answer might be, I don't know what the plan is.
我不知道它会带我去哪里。
I don't know where it will take me.
我只知道，如果我信任这些，是的。
All I know is that if I trust these Yeah.
它们会带我去一些有趣的地方。
They will go someplace interesting.
该休息一下了。
Time for a short break.
如果你的职业生涯正面临悬崖，你一定想听听吉姆接下来如何建议你渡过难关。
If you're facing a cliff in your own career, you will wanna hear what Jim has to say about how to navigate it back in a moment.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我希望你和我一样，被这场与吉姆·柯林斯的对话激发了活力。
I hope you're as energized as I have been by this conversation with Jim Collins.
我无比推荐这本书。
I cannot recommend this book enough.
我相信你会有无数个‘恍然大悟’的时刻，并看到自己人生与职业的潜力。
I think you're going to have so many ahas and see the potential of your own life and career.
我们有几位观众想向你提问。
Well, we have a couple of people who have questions for you.
那么，谁要加入我们呢？
So who are joining us.
马修住在纽约州。
Matthew lives in New York State.
我听说你是自愿跳下悬崖的，就是那个所谓的悬崖，是吧。
I hear you willingly jumped off a cliff, a so called cliff Yeah.
我们今天谈论的悬崖，其实就发生在去年。
The cliffs that we're talking about today just last year.
跟我们说说发生了什么。
Tell us what what happened.
是的。
Yeah.
我曾在耐克工作了大约十五年，之后决定辞去我担任的传播岗位。
So I had been with Nike for about fifteen years and decided to step down from a role in communications that I had.
这是我有意做出的决定，我对此段经历心怀感激。
And it was an intentional decision for me to leave, and I'm grateful for the experience.
但我内心深处觉得，是时候去探索一些新的东西了。
But I just felt within myself that I knew that it was time to explore something else.
正如你们刚才讨论的，悬崖和迷雾，我现在正处在一种摸索前行的状态，失去了那些长期以来塑造并定义我职业身份的熟悉环境。
And as you've been discussing, you know, clips and fogs, I'm certainly in a place right now of kind of wading through the fog without the familiar conditions that really shaped and defined my identity at my job for so long.
虽然我对未来充满期待，但我也在适应不再拥有过去十五年职业成长中那种固定结构的生活。
And while I'm really excited about what's ahead, I'm also adjusting to not really having the same structure that I think, you know, I really grew up professionally over the last fifteen years.
所以，吉姆，我想问你的是，当你站在十字路口，下一章尚未明确时，有没有什么工具或方法可以推荐，帮助你在这种过渡期保持内心安定？
So, Jim, my question for you is, you know, when you're at a crossroads and the next chapter is not really defined, are there tools or disciplines that you can recommend to stay grounded during this time of transition?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这是个非常好的问题。
It's a wonderful question.
首先，欢迎来到这片迷雾中。
And and so first of all, welcome to the fog.
听到你这么说，没什么不对的。
And there's nothing wrong with heard I
我在这里面待了好几年。
was in it for quite a couple of years.
是的。
Yeah.
你可能会在这里待上一段时间。
You might be there for a while.
适应它吧。
Get used to it.
是的。
Yeah.
你为自己创造了属于自己的悬崖，而你完全能做到这一点。
And you and you have brought about your own your own cliff, and you can do that.
我认为我们已经讨论过其中一些内容，就是关于采取一系列下一步最佳行动的概念，对吧？这种单步前进的方式，我只专注于下一步最佳行动，再下一步最佳行动，就这样在迷雾中不断迭代。
I think that we've already talked about some of it with this notion of taking the series of next best steps, right, this simplex stepping where I'm just gonna take the next best step, the next best step, and and just iterating through the fog.
这是其中一部分。
That's part of it.
它会花费它需要的任何时间。
It will take whatever time it takes.
但我建议现在是个绝佳的时机，去反思你的经历，并问问自己：你的所有经历教会了你关于你内在编码的什么？
But I would I would offer this would be a great time to reflect on your experiences and ask what have all your experiences taught you about your encodings?
如果你回顾一下，你现在四十多岁了。
If you look back on so you're in your forties.
对吗？
Is that right?
大概如此。
Approximately.
好的。
Okay.
所以你已经有二三十年的实践经验了，如果你回过头去看，会发现：当我回顾这些经历时，正是在这些时刻我真正感到自己处于状态之中。
So you've got two, three decades of empirical experience as to and if you kinda go back through and you were to say, you know, if I look at these experiences, this is when I really felt in frame.
这些就是那些编码被激活的时刻——当我想象某个时刻，编码被点亮了，就是在这些经历中、这些经历中、这些经历中，这些就是线索，能帮你发现这些编码是什么，因为你已经以某种方式触及过它们了。
These are the these are the times when when the encodings like, I get if I were to picture a time of, like, the encodings lit up, they were in this experience and this experience and this experience, and those are clues as to what those encodings are because you've already hit them in some way.
还有当你感受到最强烈热情的时候。
And also when you felt the fire at the strongest.
对吧？
Right?
当这两者同时出现时，你就想把这些时刻记录下来。
And when those two go together, you're you're you wanna capture those.
所以，这部分内容再次说明，你应当信任这些感受，它们就像指南针，能帮你穿越迷雾，找到那些编码是什么。
And so part of it is, again, you'd wanna trust sorta it's like they're a compass as you simplex up through the fog of what are those encodings.
当我二十多岁深陷迷雾时，我其实是在青春的迷雾中迷失了方向。
When I was really lost in the fog in my twenties, I was really lost in the fog of youth.
我创造了一个小东西，叫‘bug本’。
I created a little thing I called the bug book.
我的想法是，我有一本小小的实验笔记本，并在封面写上了自己的名字。
And the idea was that I had a little lab notebook, and I wrote my name on the front of the lab notebook.
所以你在研究自己？
So you studied yourself?
我在研究自己。
I studied myself.
没错。
Exactly.
你就是那种人。
And it's You were that kind of guy.
没错。
Exactly.
我像研究昆虫一样研究自己。
And I studied myself like a bug.
我这么说的意思是，我做了一些观察。
And what I meant by that was I made sort of observations.
名叫吉姆的这只小虫子觉得那些毫无进展、耗尽他时间的会议非常烦人。
The bug named Jim really finds meetings that go nowhere and consume all his time really irritating.
对吧？
Right?
嗯，我天生就不适合这种事。
Well, so I'm not encoded for that.
我并不具备处理政治权术的能力。
I was not encoded for good political machinations.
我根本无法理解这些事情，等等。
I had no capacity to understand them and so forth.
但后来我注意到一些其他事情，比如当我必须弄清楚某件事并教给别人时，突然间，一切就都清晰了。
And so but and then I noted some other things that happened where, like, when I had to make sense of something and teach it, bang, all of a sudden, everything clicked into frame.
于是，我把自己当作一只虫子来研究的这本‘虫书’，逐渐成了我不断调整、最终找到状态的指南。
And so this this bug book of myself as if I was studying myself that way became kind of my guide to iterate through to eventually pop into frame.
对你来说，最大的挑战是：下一个‘进入状态’的版本是什么？
And the great challenge for you is what's the next version of being in frame?
它可能与你以前做的任何事情都截然不同。
It might be something really different than what you did before.
我们研究中有一些人，从这边的某种状态转变到了那边的另一种状态，但两者都处于‘在框架内’的状态。
We have people in our study who went from something over here to something over here, but they were both in frame.
从约翰·格伦一路到国会。
John Glenn all the way to congress.
一路到国会。
All the way to congress.
所以你只需要
So you you just have
找到一个能让你大量内在编码都处于‘在框架内’状态的事情。
to find something where a big chunk of your encodings are in frame.
但我可以告诉你，这本书对你将大有帮助，你看到他人人生轨迹时一定会深受启发。
But I can tell you this book is gonna be so helpful to you, and you're going to be so inspired by seeing the trajectory of other people's stories.
是的。
Yep.
到了四十岁，我的意思是，你还像个孩子。
And in your forties, I mean, you're a baby.
你太年轻了。
Oh, you're so young.
你太年轻了。
You're so young.
我的意思是，这本书让我深受启发的地方在于，有那么多六十岁、七十岁的人，他们把圈子扩大，然后又回来，再尝试新事物——这永远、永远、永远都不会结束，尤其是当你明白自己被赋予了什么天赋，从自己最擅长、最该做的事出发，理解自己此生该怎样在这个世界上发挥作用。
I mean, the fact that what what is so inspiring to me about this book is that there's so many people in their sixties and seventies who are, you know, who send the circle out and then come back and then try something new and that it's never, never, never, never over, especially if you understand what you're encoded for and you're operating from what it is you are really the strongest at and what you were really meant to do and meant to be, and how are you how how your life is to be used here on the planet.
这正是我如此喜爱《如何度过一生》这本书的原因。
That's what I love so much about what to make of a life.
我能再给你一个小建议吗？
Can I give you one last little thing?
我们发现，有些人经历低谷、思考未来时，会想到小时候埋下的一颗种子，因为人生走向了别的方向，那颗种子从未被浇灌。
Something we learned is that so some of the people, when they went through a cliff and they were really looking at what's next, think of it as maybe when you were a kid, there was a seed of something that got planted that you never watered because your life went a different direction.
而你完全可以在自己这极其年轻的生命里，为那些种子浇灌，开启一个精彩绝伦的新篇章。
And you could water those seeds for a whole marvelous next chapter in your extraordinarily young life.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
一切顺利。
All the best.
一切顺利。
All the best.
那么，是什么阻碍了人们充分发挥他们的天赋呢？
So what holds people back from maximizing their encodings?
在参与这本书的创作过程中，它真的在许多方面改变了我。
So this book really changed me in so many ways working on it.
其中一个让我特别清楚的事情是，无论是在观察他人还是审视自己时，不评判自己的力量。
And one of the things that really became clear to me is both in looking at others and in looking at yourself is the power of not judging yourself.
首先，当你身处悬崖时不要评判，当你身处迷雾时也不要评判，更不要评判你的编码。
First of all, not judge when you're in a cliff, not judge when you're in a fog, and and to not judge your encodings.
对吧？
Right?
它们只是本来的样子。
They just are what they are.
这种自我接纳意味着，我不会花很多时间去想：‘但我本该有不一样的编码，我本该成为别的什么样子，比如X、Y或Z。’
This sense of self acceptance of I'm not I'm not going to spend a lot of time saying, well, but I should have different encodings or I should be a different, you know, x, y, or z.
我认为，无论来自他人的评判还是自我评判，都会让人很难保持在状态中。
I think that when people have whether it's the judgment of others or the self judgment, I think that makes it really hard for them to be in frame.
对我来说，‘在状态中’指的是与之同步、保持一致。
And for me And by in frame, you mean in sync, in alignment.
与你的编码以及滋养你的东西保持一致。
With the encodings and what feeds your file.
是的。
Yeah.
这意味着与你本应做的事情保持一致。
It means in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
很多人之所以失去协调、偏离状态，是因为他们想成为自己实际上并不具备编码特质的人。
And the reason peep so many people are out of alignment, out of frame is that they're wanting to be something that they're not actually encoded for.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
我认为部分原因在于，你的雄心壮志可能会让你偏离自己的本质编码。
And I think part of it is also you can let your ambition drive you out of your encodings.
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