行业转型：真实组织如何推动当今的AI转型

人类进步的历史就是技术进步的历史。

The history of human progress is the history of technological progress.

除了少数几个事件，历史上我们庆祝的、用来区分好与坏的标志，大多是技术和工具的发明。

And outside of a couple incidents, most of the marks that we celebrate in history, that we demarcate better or better from bad, are inventions of technologies and tools.

AI的承诺是真实的。

The promise of AI is real.

在你的组织中实现它的挑战也是如此。

So is the challenge of making it work in your organization.

欢迎来到《前进之路》，在这里我们探索AI时代工作的未来。

Welcome to The Path Forward, where we explore the future of work in the age of AI.

今天我很高兴邀请到Zack Kass和Michael Atalla。

I'm pleased to be joined today by Zack Kass and Michael Atalla.

两位，你们好吗？

Gents, how you doing?

谢谢你邀请我们，兄弟。

Thanks for having us, man.

很高兴你们能来。

Glad you guys are here.

能来这里真是太好了。

Super good to be here.

西雅图今天天气不错。

Proved of day in Seattle.

是啊。

It is.

今天天气很好。

It's a beautiful day.

好的。

Alright.

我们直接开始吧。

Let's get right into it.

那么，Zack，你的书把AI视为下一次文艺复兴。

So, Zack, your book frames AI as the next renaissance.

你指的是

What do you

什么意思？

mean by that?

其实，这本书的核心论点是，人类进步的历史就是技术进步的历史。

Well, the argument the book makes is actually that the history of human progress is the history of technological progress.

除了少数几个例外，历史上我们庆祝的、用来区分好与坏的标志，大多都是那些让我们能做更多事情的技术和工具的发明。

And outside of a couple incidents, most of the marks that we celebrate in history that we demarcate better or better from bad are inventions of technologies and tools that enable us to do more.

这本书的主要观点是，技术作为人类进步的故事，会继续被讲述，而且将由AI来讲述，但不仅仅是AI，AI将成为一系列其他变革的催化剂。

And the principal argument in the book is that technology as a story of human progress continues to get told and is going to be told by AI, but not strictly by AI, that AI will be a catalyst for a bunch of other change.

我选择文艺复兴这个词，有点半开玩笑，因为正如你注意到的，它和AI很契合，但也因为对很多人来说，尤其是在我们全球范围内经历的许多愤世嫉俗和宿命论中，中世纪晚期是一个特别黑暗的时期。

And I chose the Renaissance somewhat tongue in cheek because it, as you noticed, works really well with the AI, but also because for a lot of people, especially amidst a lot of cynicism and fatalism that we experience right now globally, the late Middle Ages was a particularly dark time.

所以，如果你真的想吸引人们的注意力，让他们看到一个对比点，你可以提醒他们，现代历史上一次伟大飞跃之前，是人口减半、大约四百年没有真正的工具发明、以及普遍的封建主义和压迫，这显然比我们今天生活的世界糟糕得多，然后才迎来了这样一个更好的时代。

And so if you really want to draw people's attention to the to a comparison point, you remind them that the time before one of the great leaps in modern history was marked by the decimation of half the population, no real tool invention for about four hundred years, and widespread sort of feudalism and impression, which was obviously way worse than the world we live in today, and then sort of gave forth this this much better time.

所以我的论点其实是，无论我们现在认为自己处于什么时期，我们对过去的世界缺乏谦卑，对未来的世界更是如此，但技术实际上一直在讲述一个关于人类如何能过上更充实生活的非凡故事。

So my argument is actually just that we whatever we think we're in right now, we have very little humility for the world we came from, and we even less for the world we move towards, but that technology actually just continues to tell a a a pretty remarkable story of the ways in which humans can live more fulfilling lives.

我很喜欢这个观点。

I love that.

对。

Yeah.

我们其实没那么糟糕。

We don't have it that bad.

而且你看看这个。

And look at this.

看看我们面前有什么。

Look what we've got ahead of us.

对于任何一个人来说，要真正体会祖辈们的生活都是非常困难的。

It is very it is remarkably hard for any individual to think about the lives their grandparents led.

我们记住的过去往往比实际更美好，或者我们浪漫化地讲述过去的故事。

We remember a past that was far better than it actually was, or we tell stories of a past romantically.

我们这样做，同时还会做另一件事，那就是负面的投射，一种面向未来的近乎宿命论的态度。

And we do that, and then we also do this other thing, this negative projection, this this forward looking almost fatalism.

情况很糟糕，而且会越来越糟。

It's it's bad, and it's gonna get worse.

你实际上得和人坐下来，常常是一对一，去剖析他们为什么会有这些想法。

And you actually have to sit with people, often individually, to pick apart why they think these things.

其中一部分是趋势线，但另一部分实际上只是一堆奢侈的信念。

And some of it is a trend line, and some of it actually turns out is just a bunch of luxury beliefs.

如果你的世界好到你可以坐下来想很多，那你其实在做你的祖先很少做的事，而且你的大脑天生就会捉弄你，以人类生物学没有预料到的方式。

If your world is so good that you can sit around and think a lot, then you're actually doing something that your ancestors very rarely did, and inherently your mind plays tricks on you in ways that human biology actually didn't really account for.

这需要做很多工作。

That requires a bunch of work.

比如，你真的需要和人们一对一地坐在餐桌旁，去剖析他们为什么实际上不认为世界在变好，或者为什么他们没有看到世界有多好。

Like you actually have to spend time with people one on one around dining room tables to pick apart why they actually don't think the world is getting better or why they actually don't observe how good it is.

我确实和领导者们这样做。

And I actually do that with the leaders.

比如，我和大公司的领导者坐在一起，提醒他们，如果他们觉得世界在变糟，那么他们的员工就不可能受到激励。

Like, I sit with leaders of of large companies to remind them that if they think the world's getting worse, there's no way their people are gonna be motivated.

很难说我们要把自动化做到极致，而且如果你自己都不相信这会很棒，那就更难了。

It is so hard to say we're gonna automate things to the hilt, and it's gonna be great if you don't actually believe that.

所以，你必须在某个时候剖析自己的想法，这样你才能讲述一个你领导的人愿意为之奋斗的未来故事。

So you have to, at some point, pick apart your own ideas such that you can tell stories about a future that people you are leading will want to will want to charge to.

我想谈谈那个关于误解的想法。

I want to get at that that idea of misconceptions.

我觉得你刚才提到了一个非常有趣的点。

I think you touched upon something really interesting there.

那么，你认为关于AI，尤其是在企业环境中，最大的误解是什么？

So what do you think some of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to AI, especially in like a corporate setting?

我觉得现在人们严重高估了AI对经济的负面影响，而严重低估了它对情感的影响。

I think right now people are grossly overestimating the economic detriment of AI and grossly underestimating the emotional one.

所以，2024年10月1日，码头工人罢工了。

So 10/01/2024, the longshoremen go and strike.

我不知道你还记不记得这件事。

I don't know if you remember this.

美国的码头工人离开了东海岸。

The dock workers of America walk off the Eastern Seaboard.

10月2日早上，码头工人领袖哈罗德·达格特上了CNN，发表了一个很长、很有力的采访。

And on the morning of October 2, the head of longshoremen, Harold Daggett, goes on CNN and gives this very long, pretty powerful interview.

他一开始采访就指着镜头。

And he opens the interview by pointing at the camera.

他对镜头说，美国人民根本不知道我有多危险。

He says to the camera, says the American people have no idea how dangerous I am.

我会让你们瘫痪。

I will cripple you.

这就是他介绍自己的方式。

This is how he introduces himself.

供应链经济中第二有权势的人。

The second most powerful man in the supply chain economy.

他想要什么？

What did he want?

他的要求是什么？

What were his demands?

嗯，不是要更多的钱，也不是要更安全的工作条件，而这两项是自从我们组织劳工以来每个工会都会提出的要求。

Well, they weren't more money and they weren't safer working conditions, which are the two demands of every labor union since we organize labor.

他们的要求是港口不要自动化他们的工作。

The demand was that the ports not automate their jobs.

所以我给他发了一封很长、很深思熟虑的邮件，因为我对此很着迷，而他回给我的东西却大不相同。

And so I sent him a very long, very thoughtful email because I was fascinated and he sent me something very different back.

他不想见我，但我们去了港口，和这些人中的一些人见了面。

And he didn't want to meet with me, but we went to the ports and we met with a bunch of these guys.

我在迈阿密和泽西岛见了些人，我们采访了——这个工会95%是男性。

I met with guys in Miami and and in Jersey, and we interviewed it's 95% male union.

我们采访了25名男性，问了一系列问题，其中四个人的回答让我觉得我理解了关于自动化和劳工的一切。

We interviewed 25 men, asked them a battery of questions of which four told us everything I thought I needed to understand about automation and and labor.

你工作中最重要的部分是什么？

What's the most important part of your job?

92%。

92%.

92%的人把社区排在第一或第二。

92 ranked community one or two.

不是经济问题。

Not an economic issue.

所以我问了他们每个人。

So I asked each of them.

我说，你们的抗议标语。

I said, Your picket signs.

他们有两张。

They had two.

你们的标语写着“机器人不纳税”和“自动化伤害家庭”。

Your picket signs read Robots don't pay taxes and automation harms families.

如果自动化伤害家庭，那自动化对谁有好处呢？

If automation harms families, who does automation benefit?

然后我重新表述了这个问题。

And then I've reframed it.

我说，在这种情况下，如果港口实现自动化，谁会在经济上受益？

Said, In this case, who benefits economically if we automate the ports?

有些人不太喜欢我的语气，也不清楚问题会引向哪里，但几乎所有人都明白了，而且有些人愿意回答。

And some of them didn't like the tone of my voice and didn't where the question was leading, but almost all of them got it and some of them were willing to answer.

答案是，每个人。

And the answer, is everyone.

如果港口实现自动化，每个人都会在经济上受益，包括最终码头工人和他们的孩子。

Everyone benefits economically if we automate the ports, including eventually the longshoremen and their kids.

我之所以知道这一点，是因为我们都是后代，在座的每个人，基本上城市里或地球上的每个人都是。

And the only reason I know that is we are all descendants, everyone in this room and everyone basically in the city or on Earth.

我们都是那些工作被自动化的人的后代，这让我们集体受益，而我们从未想过他们。

We're all descendants of people whose jobs were automated to our economic benefit collectively, and we never think twice about them.

如果我们真的把一切都自动化到极致，我认为我们还会继续工作，只是工作会发生很大变化，而且变化会很频繁。我认为我们一直问的最大误解是，我们会变穷吗，而不是我们会幸福吗？

If we actually automate everything to the hilt and I think we will continue to work, work will just change quite a bit and and very frequently, I think the biggest misconception that we keep asking is, are we going to be poor instead of are we going be happy?

我们能不能在工作之外找到人生的意义？

Can we find can man find meaning outside of work?

我觉得答案是肯定的，但关键在于时间尺度是多久。

And I think the answer is yes, but at what on what timescale?

我们应该把这个问题当作真正的风险来讨论，因为很明显，我们一直在盯着一个转移注意力的假问题，这完全让我们忽略了真正需要面对的事情，我觉得现在很多公司都应该开始考虑解决这个问题了。

And and we should talk about this as the actual risk because pretty clearly, keep pointing at this red herring that's totally distracting us from the issue that I think most companies now need to start considering addressing.

UiPath 有机会把这项技术用于好的方面，或者更好的方面，不管怎样。

UiPath has the opportunity to put this technology to work for good or for better, whatever it is.

在那种讨论背景下，你觉得像 UiPath 这样的公司应该承担什么样的责任？

How do you think about the responsibility that companies like UiPath have in the context of that argument?

我很好奇，你是怎么看待技术的？

Like, I'm curious, like, how do you think about technology?

你在 OpenAI 也待了同样长的时间，那家公司在这个时代影响巨大。

You were spent an equal amount of time at OpenAI, a company that's been hugely influential in this moment in time.

我们共同的责任是什么，才能激励人们获得幸福？

How are we what is our shared responsibility for that motivation to make people happy?

我对此可能有一个很奇怪的观点。

I have a very maybe strangely hot take on the matter.

我认为你应该尽可能地把技术做得更好。

I think you should build as I think your technology should be as good as possible.

你应该尽可能多地实现自动化。

You should try to automate as much as possible.

我对此印象很深，因为你在麦肯锡的采访中，在宣传你的书的时候，你谈到了这个想法，就是说AI不仅仅是技术上的责任，而几乎是政治上的责任。

I'm really struck by that because in you you did an interview with McKinsey when you're talking about when you were on your book tour, and you talked about this idea of AI as as not necessarily a techno to to sort of paraphrase, not a technological responsibility, but almost like a political responsibility.

对。

Mhmm.

而且我

And I

觉得你确实触及到了这一点。

think you're really touching on that.

你还谈到了这个想法，就是岗位转移，而不是岗位替代。

And you also talked about this idea of, like, it's job displacement, not job replacement.

你能稍微谈谈，我们应该怎么看待，就像迈克尔问的那样，有些公司在开发技术。

Can you talk a little bit about sort of like, how should we be thinking about, like, so to Michael's question about like, there are companies who building technology.

这些技术旨在自动化那些拖慢我们、让我们效率低下的东西，等等。

That technology is meant to automate all these things that slow us down, that make us inefficient, whatever.

但很多时候，结果却是人们说，哦，我的工作要没了。

But a lot of times what that winds up being is that winds up being people saying, oh, my job's gonna go away.

谈谈关于替代与置换的心态吧。

Talk a little bit about sort of like the mentality of displacement versus replacement.

首先，今天西方世界的大多数工作在100年前是无法想象的，很多工作在30年前甚至都没有名称。

Well, first, most of the jobs in the Western world today were unimaginable one hundred years ago, and a lot of the jobs didn't even have a title thirty years ago.

我们却仍然相信这次会有所不同，不，其实不会。

And we continue somehow to believe that this time is going to be different than no.

现在工作真的在消失，我一直在想人们为什么会得出这样的结论，有三个原因。

Now the jobs are actually going away, and I continue to wonder how people arrive there for three reasons.

实际上，有四个。

Actually, there are four.

第一个原因是，要理解AI与劳动力经济的关系真的很难，因为技术专家不懂宏观经济学，而宏观经济学家也不懂AI是怎么运作的。

The first reason that making any sense of the labor economy vis a vis AI is really hard is that technologists have no understanding of macroeconomics and macroeconomists have no idea how AI works.

所以，这两拨人就像是在没有共同理解的情况下，试图互相理解。

And so you really have these two bodies trying to make sense of each other without a without a shared understanding.

只有少数例外，比如斯坦福的埃里克·布林约尔松，他很谦虚地说，我真的不太清楚。

And there are a few exceptions like Erik Brynjolfsson at Stanford, who has the humility to be like, I don't really know.

我觉得我们会得到更多的工作机会。

I think we're going to get more jobs.

但过程可能会有点波折。

It's going to be it's going to be wonky.

第二个原因是政治保护。

The second reason is political protection.

大家都说，哦，工程师会先被自动化取代。

Everyone goes, oh, engineers are going to automate first.

我说，对，你可能是对的。

I'm like, yeah, you're probably right.

但你说得不对，因为Claude Code真的很厉害。

But you're not right because Claude Code is really good.

你说得对，是因为软件工程师从来没有组织过他们的劳动力。

You're right because the software engineers never organized their labor.

他们没有工会，而且在政治上也不太受欢迎。

They have no union, and they're not particularly politically well liked.

他们是一群赚很多钱的人，住在沿海精英地区，对普通美国人来说，他们不需要更多好处。

It's a bunch of people who make an enormous amount of money, who live in, you know, pockets of coastal elite areas, who, to the average person in The United States, doesn't need more favor.

所以没有哪个政客会把软件工程师拉到国会面前说，我们绝不能抢走迈克的工作。

And so no politician is going to drag a software engineer in front of Congress and say, We can never take Mike's job.

他一年赚50万美元。

He makes $500,000 a year.

那他怎么办？

What will he do?

所以缺乏政治保护，实际上是你可能看到这些工作被自动化的最可靠原因。

So the lack of political protection is actually the safest reason why you could see these jobs automating.

而且即便如此，我也不认为我们会这样做，当前的经济预测也表明情况并非如此。

And even then, I don't think we will, and the current economic forecast says otherwise.

第三，新的工作。

The third, new work.

我们完全不了解AI将如何改变工作的性质。

We have no understanding of how AI is going to change the nature of work.

我个人认为将会出现一个庞大的新型实体服务经济。

I personally think there's going to be a massive new physical services economy.

会有很多东西被建造出来。

There's just going be a bunch stuff built.

杰文斯悖论，亚伦·列维经常在领英上讨论这个，并且在这个问题上坚持己见，相当有效，它表明我们实际上会需要更多的软件工程师，因为软件的成本将会下降。

Jevan's Paradox, which Aaron Levy argues about all the time on LinkedIn and has sort of died on that hill pretty effectively, says that we're actually going want a bunch more software engineers because the cost of software is going to go down.

但第四点，我认为是最重要的，那就是我们一直在谈论未来的工作问题，好像孩子们真的非常在意他们的工作。

But the fourth I do think is the most important, which is we keep talking about this future of work issue as though the kids are really obsessed with their job.

他们并不在意。

They're not.

不是孩子们，是父母们对孩子的职业很执着，因为他们希望孩子有地位。

They're not parents are obsessed with their kid's job because they want their kid to have status.

孩子们执着于过上比父母更好的生活。

Kids are obsessed with living a life that's better than their parents.

他们执着于拥有父母所拥有的，甚至更多，这个承诺已经持续了大约七百年。

They are obsessed with the idea that they will have what their parents have and then some, which has been promised for about seven hundred years.

解决这个问题的方法在国会。

And the way you solve that happens in Congress.

让住房、医疗和教育变得更便宜，我经常强调这一点，希望大家记住，如果解决了这些问题，实际上就解决了未来的生活，这比未来的工作重要得多，因为你可以创造完美的工作。

You make housing, health care, and education less expensive, and I come back to this as often as possible so that people remember that if you solve those things, you actually solve the future of living, which matters way more than the future of work because you can organ you can you can create the perfect job.

但如果一个孩子必须工作到90岁才能买得起父母的房子，那又有什么意义呢？

But if a kid's gotta work till they're 90 to afford their parents' house, what difference does it make?

他们会暴动的。

They're gonna riot.

在我们现在讨论的所有事情中，思考工作的转型似乎显得有点渺小，但我觉得你讲的非常重要。

In the context of everything we're talking about right now, it it almost seems it can seem rather small to be thinking about the transformation of work in the context of what you're talking about, which I think is incredibly important.

人类的转变、AI将如何影响世界、你描述的那些持续的政治动态，都非常重要。

The transformation of humanity, the way AI will affect the world, the ongoing the political dynamics that you're describing, incredibly important.

但我确实认为，在这些背后，我们正生活在一个再次改变工作的时代。

But I do think buried in all that is the fact that we are living through an era where we are changing work yet again.

我的意思是，你指出，我认为很正确，这不是第一次了。

I mean, point out, I think, correctly that it's not the first time.

事实上，仅就自动化而言，我们可以追溯到几百甚至几千年前，讨论自动化对推动世界前进、推动文明前进、推动经济产出前进的影响。

In fact, if we take automation alone, we could go back hundreds, if not thousands of years and talk about the impact that automation has had to possibly move, the world forward, move civilization forward, move the product of the economy forward.

我认为我们现在就处于那个阶段，有了AI。

I think we're there now, with AI.

我认为UiPath正在努力做的，就是真正找到那些改变个人角色、个人工作、个人行业动态的路径，以我们认为将改变每个具体领域工作方式的方式。

I think what UiPath is endeavoring to do is really find those pathways to change the dynamics of individual roles, individual work, individual industries in ways that I think will transform we think that will transform the way work gets done in each of those discrete places.

我认为这些具体领域才是企业内部真正转型的有趣之处，比如组织之间的交接、企业之间的交接，一个人的角色可能被改变成更简单、更好、更快的形式，而这种更简单、更好、更快与桌子另一边的更简单、更好、更快相连，突然两个更简单、更好、更快加在一起就更简单、更好、更快了。

And I think those discrete places are the interesting, I think, places for true transformation inside a business, like the handoffs between organizations, the handoffs between businesses, the way that one person's role might be changed into something that is either easier, better, faster, and the way that that easier, better, faster connects to easier, better, faster on the other side of a table, and suddenly two easier, better, fasters are easier, better, faster together.

我认为这些就是那种具体的劳动力转型时刻，现在每天都在发生，每周都在发生，而我们的技术正是要改变这些。

I think those are the types of of in like, discrete workforce transformation moments that are happening day to day to day, week to week right now that our technology is about changing.

而且我确实认为你指出的很对，这两件事可以同时发生。

And I actually think that you were correctly pointing out that both things can happen.

这两件事都可以成立。

Both things can be true.

我们可以打造最好的技术，真正以积极且有影响力的方式改变劳动力，为人们带来更好的结果。

We can build the best possible technology to really transform the workforce in a way that is positive and impactful, a better outcome for people.

而在这个过程中，我们会看到新的工作出现。

And in doing that, we will see new jobs emerge.

我们会看到新的角色形成。

We'll see new roles take shape.

我们会看到新的企业诞生。

We'll see new businesses start.

与此同时，我们必须解决真正的难题，也就是技术本身无法解决的世界性问题。

And at the same time, we have to solve the real hard problems what is happening in the in the world beyond the scope of technology alone.

我不确定你需要这样做。

I don't know that you need to.

你有没有觉得有一种使命感，比如，你认为UiPath在其中扮演什么角色？

Do you feel do you feel a call to like, what do you think UiPath's role is in that?

你是指第二个方面吗？

In the second thing?

对。

Yeah.

听着，我个人确实相信，技术——这是我个人的看法。

Look, I I happen to believe that tech this is me speaking personally.

比如，我确实相信，技术对你提到的那些世界性挑战负有责任，无论是财富差距，还是世界政治失衡。

Like, I happen to believe that tech is accountable for a bunch of what you highlight as a prop prop challenges to take on in the world, whether it's wealth disparity, whether it's political imbalance in the world.

而且我确实觉得，作为科技行业的一员，我有一种责任感，要用我们所拥有的财富、力量和 capabilities 去推动事情向好的方向发展。

And I actually think I feel a sense of accountability as a participant in the tech industry to actually take the affluence and power and capabilities that we have to affect the work for good.

我认为UiPath在某种程度上也有同样的想法。

I think that UiPath shares that in some ways, shapes, or form.

我的意思是，我们成立了一个基金会，叫UiPath基金会，它的目的是把生活在罗马尼亚农村的小学和中学的孩子带出来，让他们摆脱那种永远无法获得像UiPath员工在罗马尼亚所享有的机会的境地，我们想把他们带出来，让他们看到这些机会。

I mean, we have a foundation that we've formed, the UiPath Foundation, that is about drawing kids in the primary school and secondary school that live in rural Romania out of places where they never ever find the kind of opportunity that UiPath employees enjoy even in Romania, and we wanna draw them out and show them that opportunity.

我觉得像我们这样的公司应该想办法以这种方式投资于整个世界。

I think companies like us should find ways to invest in world at large in that way.

你谈到了很多在美国这里真实存在的现实情况。

You talked a lot about some realities that are true that are the true in here in The United States.

我觉得世界上每个国家都有类似的情况。

I think that there is some version of that in every country in the world.

有些是全球性的。

Some of it is global.

我确实认为我们有责任，而且我们应该认真对待。

I do think we have an accountability, I think, and we should take it seriously.

但我不确定，这就是我的想法。

But I don't know, that's the way I

不，不，很感谢你这么说。

No, no, appreciate that.

我也非常钦佩那些捐款并创建基金会来支持有需要的人的私营部门领导者。

I also really, really admire private sector leaders who donate money and create foundations to support people who are in need.

我还是会回到这个想法：对大多数私营部门来说，推动世界前进最有效的方式就是发明新东西，并把技术普及开来，让普通人都能受益。

I still continue to come back to this idea that for most private sector, the most effective thing that you can do to move the world forward is to invent new things and diffuse the technology to the benefit of the average both

这可以同时成立。

can be true.

对。

Yeah.

我们聊了很多关于AI有多少的话题。

So we've talked a lot about how much AI there is.

但对于那些工具和试点项目都很多的机构来说，他们应该关注什么？

But for organizations who are swimming in tools and swimming in pilots, what are they what should they be looking at?

在考虑如何把这些都付诸实践时，他们应该考虑什么？

What what should they be considering when they're thinking about how they're putting all these things into practice?

听我说。

Look.

要在当今AI的背景下取得成功，我们首先必须接受这是一个全行业的时刻。

To be successful in the world today in the context of AI, we have to accept first and foremost that this is an all industry moment.

这是一个生态系统的时刻。

This is an ecosystem moment.

这不是一个让我们只专注于自己拥有的技术栈、完全不考虑周围情况的创新时刻。

This isn't a a moment for us to take the particular stack that we own and jam on innovating with zero consideration of what's happening around around us.

如果我现在坐在客户的位子上，你知道，归根结底我也是自己技术的客户，对我来说最重要的是有一批技术玩家，他们明白参与这个生态系统、热情地参与其中、寻求联盟、伙伴关系、技术整合，以及从横向视角看待哪种AI模型最好、哪种云平台最好，这些决策才能真正让我们集体受益，而且我认为，最终会带来那种积极的结果，就像扎克之前讨论的那样。

If I if I am sitting in a customer seat today and I, you know, I'm a customer of my own technology at the end of the day, the most important thing for me is to have a set of technology players that understand that that participation in that ecosystem, willingness to participate in the ecosystem enthusiastically, seek out the alliances, the partnerships, the technical integrations, the horizontal view of what the AI model will be best, what cloud platform will be best, those decisions are the ones that will actually serve us collectively best and will actually, I think, result in the kind of outcome, the positive outcomes that, you know, Zack's discussion earlier will will take us.

我可以这么说，这就是UiPath今天在行业中积极扮演的角色，并且将继续作为我们参与生态系统的方式的锚点。

I could so that's that's a role that UiPath enthusiastically plays in the industry today and will continue to be an anchor for how we participate in the ecosystem.

是的。

Yeah.

你呢，扎克？

What about you, Zack?

基本上有四个原因导致公司要么陷入工具困境，要么困在试点炼狱中，或者更糟，干脆什么都不做，也不去了解这些。

There are basically four reasons why companies are either mired in tools or stuck in pilot purgatory or or worse, just doing nothing at all and not learning about any of it.

第一个原因是，大多数人根本不知道这项技术有多强大。

The first is that most people most people have no idea how powerful this technology is.

这其中有部分原因，我得怪到ChatGPT头上。

And some of this, I actually blame ChatGPT on.

这确实很了不起。

It's actually quite remarkable.

这个设备本身、这个产品造成的短视，很奇怪，也很反直觉。但人们越是在这个应用里做事，就越难想象它在应用之外有多神奇。

The myopia that is caused by the device itself, by the product is this weird it's counter it's counterintuitive, but the more people do things on the app, the harder it is for them to imagine the ways in which this is sort of magical outside of the app.

所以他们盯着这个东西，然后说，哦，它就能干这个。

And so they stare at this thing and go, Oh, that's what it's capable of.

不，那只是你能看到的。

No, that's what you can see.

实际上，这有点像人们第一次看到爱迪生打开电灯的时候，我们可能站在那里，然后说，哇，这就是电。

And actually, it's kind of like when people first saw Edison turn on a light bulb, like we might have been standing there and been like, Wow, that's electricity.

而爱迪生可能会说，嗯，这是用电点亮的灯泡。

And Edison would have been like, Well, that's a light bulb powered by electricity.

第二个原因，这一点非常重要，就是大多数人其实很害怕把自己的工作自动化。

The second reason, and this is super important, is that most people are actually pretty terrified of the notion of automating their own job.

我觉得这是一种情绪上的反应，而不是经济上的。

And I think that this is an emotional reaction, not actually an economic one.

这有两个原因。

There are two reasons for this.

一是他们热爱自己的工作，或者把自己的身份认同与工作挂钩。

One is that they love their work or they attach identity to their work.

另一个是他们害怕老板发现自己不是不可或缺的，然后被解雇。

The other is that they are afraid that their boss will find out they're not necessary, and they will fire them.

第三个原因是，人们其实根本不清楚公司想要达成什么目标。

The third reason is that people don't actually have any idea of what the business wants to accomplish.

这又是我看到的一个老问题。

This is like continues to be this pattern that I see.

没有明确的目标，所以普通公司的普通员工没有内在价值感或动力去更高效地工作。

There is no clear castle on the hill, so there's not there's no intrinsic value or motivation in an average employee inside of an average company to to do more effective work.

他们会觉得，这跟我有什么关系。

They're like, well, it doesn't really matter to me.

这不会影响我的利润。

It doesn't show up on my bottom line.

我喜欢你所说的，你正在处理如此巨大且重要的挑战，就在你现在谈论的内容中。

What I like about, like, you're I mean, you're tackling such enormous enormously important challenges in your in in the what you're talking about right now.

但如果你把它分解开来，我喜欢的是，底层有一些东西是完全可行的，完全可以实现的。

But but if you break it down, what I what I like about it is there are some things underneath that are entirely achievable, entirely attainable.

普通员工不积极参与公司业绩这个挑战并不是一个新问题。

There are these the the challenge that the average worker isn't heavily invested in the company's results is not a new problem.

如果我们能像你描述的那样，把挑战分解成那些组成部分，而且你刚才也提到了，这些肯定是我们能单独应对的，我认为这就是我们的机会。

If we can break down challenges like you're describing into those component parts and you described them just now that are certainly things we can take on individually, I think that's the that's the opportunity we have to

你有孩子吗？

Do you have kids?

有。

I do.

是的。

Yes.

多大了？

How old?

17岁，13岁。

17, 13.

真不错。

Amazing.

你有孩子吗？

You have kids?

有。

Yeah.

16岁和14岁。

16 and 14.

好的。

Okay.

我有个七个月大的宝宝，所以你比我超前一点。

So I have a seven month old, so you're a little ahead of me.

你现在正处在最艰难的阶段。

The way, you're in the throes.

人们问我，你希望你的女儿将来成为什么样的人？

People ask me, what what what are you gonna want for your daughter?

其实，这真的很私密。

It's it's actually you know, it's very intimate.

但此刻我意识到，我在行业里的所有声望，其实都比不上我作为父亲的可信度，因为我可以自信地看着别人说，为了弗兰基有更好的未来，我愿意放弃一切。

But in this moment, I realized, like, all my credibility in the industry is actually pales in comparison to my credibility as a dad, because I can confidently look at someone and say, I'd give up everything for Frankie to have a better future.

我不是作为行业的代言人在说话。

I'm not speaking as a shill for an industry.

我是作为一个父亲，希望自己的女儿能生活在一个比我更好的世界里。

I'm speaking as a dad who wants his daughter to live in a better world than he does.

这就是我代表的身份。

That's who I am speaking for.

人们问我，你想要什么？

And people say, what do you want?

你希望弗兰基怎么样？

What do you want for Frankie?

我希望弗兰基……

I want Frankie.

我希望我的女儿相信她能解决问题。

I want my daughter to believe that she can solve problems.

而且我特别希望她能解决自己面前的问题。

And I, in particular, want her to solve problems in front of herself.

我觉得我们面临的很多宿命论、愤世嫉俗，甚至虚无主义，都来自一代人，他们表演性地痴迷于那些他们永远不会亲眼见到的问题，却对自己完全有能力、立刻就能解决的问题视而不见。

And I I think so much of the fatalism and the cynicism and in some respect, the nihilism that we face is from a generation that's that became performatively obsessed with problems that they will never see in person and underwhelmed by problems that they are intimately capable of fixing, immediately capable of fixing.

这种情绪会渗透开来。

And it percolates.

它会渗透到方方面面。

It permeates to to everything.

所以我跟大多数人这么说：你看。

And so I say to most people, look.

如果你想建设一个更美好的世界，那就去建设它。

If you wanna build a better world, build it.

每个人都能做很多事情。

There are a bunch of things that every single person can do.

通过专注于你有解决方案的问题，你会学到一种能动性，这种能动性我们很久以前就不再教给孩子了，那时我们几乎放弃了让他们承担大部分责任。

By by fixating on problems that you have solutions to, You learn a sense of agency that we stopped teaching kids a while ago when we when we when we sort of abdicated them for most responsibility.

对我来说，这也与讲一个更好的故事的想法密不可分，即CEO们实际上在授权人们去做有益的事情，并解决他们真正能看到的问题。

And this to me also is is part and parcel with this idea of telling a better story, which is CEOs actually empowering people to do things that are good and fixing problems that that they can actually see.

最后我想说的是，这种反人工智能的言论现在特别让我着迷，因为人工智能……

And the last thing I'll say, this anti A.

……

I.

……这种言论现在特别让我着迷，因为人工智能……

Rhetoric right now is particularly fascinating to me because A.

……

I.

已经在很多人们愿意放手的事情上产生了非常积极的影响。

Is already having profoundly positive consequences on a lot of stuff that people are willing to hand weigh that.

嗯，那不一样。

Well, that's different.

我就说，不。

And I'm like, no.

那是无形的技术。

That's invisible technology.

而且事实证明，你赢的方式，UiPath赢的方式，是当UiPath开始自动化很多没人再注意的事情时。

And it turns out actually the way that you win and the way that UiPath wins is when UiPath starts to automate a bunch of stuff that no one notices anymore.

然后我们庆祝它。

And then we celebrate it.

然后有一天你回头一看，哇。

And then one day you turn around and you go, wow.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得AI让我们的生活好多了。

I guess AI made our lives a whole lot better.

对。

Yeah.

当我们把它放到后台的时候。

When we moved it to the background.

互联网。

Internet.

当它不再需要你到处点击的时候。

When it stopped becoming a thing that you had to click around on.

当它不再拼命吸引你注意力的时候。

When it stopped becoming a thing that desperately wanted your attention.

当它不再制造那种总统和泰勒·斯威夫特接吻的视频，而是真正让世界变得更好的时候，人们才会说，哦，是啊，我想我们确实喜欢这样。

When it stopped becoming a thing that made a, you know, video of the president and Taylor Swift making out, when it started to become a thing that actually made the world better, then people go, oh, yeah, I guess I guess we do like that.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

比如，自动驾驶道路会很棒，当不再有四万五千美国人因此丧生的时候。

Like, autonomous roadways are gonna be pretty awesome when forty five thousand Americans don't die on anymore.

对。

Yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

让技术隐形，让人们能直接解决眼前的问题。

Make the technology invisible and allow people to fix problems right in front of them.

这两件事真的会相互促进。

Those two things really compound.

很好。

It's good.

当了七个月父母，学到了很多。

Learned a lot in seven months of parenthood.

这说明你的心态更好了。

That's you've got better attitude.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你听说过贝克医生吗？

You've heard of doc Becky?

是的。

Yeah.

医生。

Doctor.

扎克。

Zack.

这就对了。

There you go.

不错。

Nice.

所以快进五年。

So flash forward five years.

谁在私营部门成功了，谁没有？

Who's been successful in the private sector, and who hasn't?

你能指出哪些是他们成功的标志性特征？

What are the things that you could point to that are the hallmarks of what made them successful?

从你开始，迈克尔。

Start with you, Michael.

UiPath有趣的一点是，我很容易就能拿苹果电脑举例，说，看看苹果。

The thing that's interesting about UiPath is that it's easy for me to point to something like Apple Computer and be like, look at Apple.

看看人们对自己的产品有多么强烈的情感联系，无论你喜欢还是讨厌它们。

Look at the incredible emotional connection that people have with their products, whether you like them or you hate them.

有些人，我不知道谁口袋里装着安卓手机，谁装着苹果手机。

And some people, I don't know who's got an Android phone in their pocket versus an iPhone.

但是，即使是像编排和自动化这样复杂又技术性的事情，也能激发出巨大的能量和热情，我真的很喜欢这一点。

The, but the incredible amount of energy and passion that can be generated by transformative innovative technology, is present even when you do gnarly sort of geeky things like orchestration and automation, and I actually love that.

我喜欢看到在印度班加罗尔，有一千个人渴望见到我们公司的创始人，因为他们的事业就是建立在这项技术上的。

I love that I can find an audience of a thousand people in Bangalore, India, who are dying to get in the room with the founder of our company because they built their careers on this technology.

这让他们兴奋。

It excites them.

他们就像，我觉得那种人与技术、与创新之间的联系，实际上是成功的绝佳标志，这就是为什么我知道UiPath是成功的。

They're like, I think that that kind of connection, human connection to the technology and the innovation is actually an incredible sign of success and I it's why I know UiPath is successful.

就像我知道苹果成功一样。

It's the same way I I know that Apple is successful.

规模不同，大小不同，技术不同，但我们在企业领域和复杂技术中能做到这一点，这正是我喜欢的市场成功之处。

A different scale, different size, different technology, but fact that we can do that in enterprise and do that in gnarly geeky tech still is I love about about what the market's success.

比如，你可能有自己的看法。

Like, you probably have a point of view.

对。

Yeah.

我认为，五年后成功的公司会有一系列共同的特点。

Companies that are successful in five years, I think, will have will share a set of pretty common characteristics.

第一，我觉得它们在市场营销方面会做得更好。

One, I think they will be far better at marketing.

很多公司会因为真正让员工相信一个更伟大的使命而表现出色。

I think a lot of companies are going to do well because they actually rally their employees to believe in a much greater calling.

那些讲述自己如何改善世界的故事的公司会很重要，不管这是不是作秀，我希望不是。

Companies that tell stories about the ways in which they're improving the world will matter, whether it's performative or not, and my hope that it isn't.

第三点，这个挺有意思的。

I think the third and this one is kind of fun.

我认为五年后最有效的私营企业会是那些在自动化边界上把握好分寸的公司。

I think the most effective private sector companies in five years will be the ones that have towed the line at the automation boundary.

每家公司都有权自动化大量工作，但它们实际上有一个不能逾越的区域。

Every company has a right to automate an enormous amount of their work, and they actually have a go no further zone.

而且我们还不知道这个边界在哪里。

And we don't know what it is.

我们实际上必须去发现它。

We actually have to discover it.

很多公司会以损害自身利益的方式去发现它。

And a lot of companies are going to discover it to the detriment to their own detriment.

他们会发现自动化做得太过头了，市场会严厉惩罚他们，不管是裁员还是客户体验的流失。

They're going to discover that they automated way too much and the market's going to terribly penalize them, be it because of a layoff or something like, you know, the loss of a customer experience.

发现自动化的边界，无论是个人层面还是集体层面，都将是未来二十年里非常深刻的体验之一。

Discovering the automation boundary, both personally, collectively, is actually going to be one of these really powerful experiences over the next twenty years.

最后，我想用一句话来结束。

And I will leave you with this quote.

1930年，约翰·梅纳德·凯恩斯周游世界，在极度绝望的背景下谈论一切会变得多么美好。

John Maynard Keynes in 1930 is traveling the world talking about how much better everything is going to get against the backdrop of abject despair.

他巡回演讲，人们纷纷被赶下台。

And he goes on this lecture circuit and people boom off stage.

他们就说，你得看看场合。

They're like, you should read the room.

外面都有人饿死了。

People are dying of starvation outside.

你别再这么说了。

You should stop talking this way.

他回家写了篇文章，叫《我们后代的经济可能性》，里面写道，我引用一下，我必须摆脱现在的束缚，飞向一个我肯定活不到的未来，在那个未来，人类可能已经解决了经济问题，但会面临更深刻的问题。

He goes home and he writes this essay called The Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren, in which she writes, and I quote, I must now disembarrass myself to take flight into a future that I will certainly not live to see, one in which humans may have solved the economic problem and be faced with something more profound.

现代宏观经济学的奠基人在1930年就提出，总有一天人类会让所有人都有衣穿、有人照顾、有饭吃、有房住，然后我们就会面临最大的挑战。

The father of modern macroeconomics proposed in 1930 that at some point humans would clothe, care, feed for, house everyone, and then we would face our greatest struggle yet.

我确实觉得，私营企业能成功，很大程度上是因为个人经历了精神上的觉醒。

And I actually think that so much of private sector success is going to come from individuals going through their own spiritual awakening.

希望你是对的。

Hope you're right.

是的。

Yeah.

好了，你在这儿听到了。

Well, you heard it here.

AI会拯救世界。

AI is gonna save the world.

不过，说正经的。

All kidding aside, though.

真的很感谢你们来。

Really appreciate you guys being here.

扎克，非常感谢。

Zack, thank you so much.

我的羽毛笔。

My Quills.

迈克尔，非常感谢。

Michael, thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.