#298 ‒ 情绪健康对长寿的影响、自我审计策略、提升幸福感等 | Paul Conti, M.D.

所以这个人可能赚了很多钱，现在不用担心生活所需，或者在他们选择的艺术领域取得了成就。

So the person may have made a lot of money, and now they don't have to worry about being in need, or they may have achieved at their chosen art form.

但他们非常害怕，如果下一件事不顺利，一切都会被夺走，或者他们会为自己感到羞愧。

But they're so afraid that if the next thing doesn't go right, it'll all be taken away or they'll feel ashamed of themselves.

这种情况在高成就的人身上很常见。

This goes on a lot in people who are high achieving.

就像是在问，我最近为自己做了什么？

It's like, what have I done for myself lately?

如果我没有做得足够好，我就无法对自己感觉良好。

And if I haven't done something good enough, I can't feel good enough about myself.

这种情况太多了。

There is so much of that.

而我却能看到那些从外表看一无所有的人，他们会说，你知道，等我离开这里，我会换个方式生活。

Whereas I could see people who from the outside literally had nothing, who would be saying, you know, when I get out of here, I'm gonna do it differently.

我会做得更好。

I'm gonna do it better.

我要去见一个我非常想念、对我很有帮助的人。

I'm gonna go see this person I really miss who is helpful to me.

我要去找份工作。

I'm gonna get a job.

我要远离那些让我进监狱的东西，他们可能会讲一些开心的故事或回忆。

I'm gonna keep myself away from what got me in here in the first place, and they might have a enjoyable story or memory to say.

我记得有一次遇到一个人，他住在灌木丛后面，条件很差，但他比之前几天我见到的大多数人都快乐得多。

I remember one point meeting someone who is living behind a bush under bad conditions who is far far happier than the vast majority of people I had seen over the previous several days.

事实是，我们常常在逃避什么，或者努力去实现什么，以为这样就能让我们在这个世界上感到安全，然后突然之间，我们就会觉得自己好多了。

The truth is we are often running from something or trying to achieve something that makes us safe in the world, and all of a sudden, we're gonna feel better about ourselves.

而我们真正需要做的是承认自己是人，我们内心发生的一切都非常重要。

And what we really need to do is honor that we are human, and what is going on inside of us is so important.

如果我们愿意去面对这些，愿意问自己：我对自己说了什么？

If we are willing to look at that, we're willing to ask the questions, what do I say to myself?

我对自己感觉如何，对别人又感觉如何？

How do I feel about myself versus other people?

我是不是觉得自己像个骗子？

Do I feel like a fraud?

我是不是害怕一切都会被夺走？

Am I afraid everything will be taken away from me?

每次我掉东西的时候，我是不是在心里骂自己是个白痴？

Every time I drop something, do I say, what an idiot, you know, inside of myself?

就像，我内心到底在想什么？

Like, what is going on inside of me?

我是不是对新事物或与我不同的人保持开放的心态？

Do I feel like I have an openness of spirit to new things or people who are different from me.

我们可以问自己这些问题，但我们必须停止认为，我们用来装饰自己的东西才是带来幸福的关键。

Like, we can ask ourselves these questions, but we have to stop feeling that what we adorn ourselves with is what brings us happiness.

然后我们才能真正拥有属于自己的东西。

Then we can get to this owning what is ours.

所以，那些离开后想要给自己一个安身之所的人，可以拥有属于自己的东西，那就是在灌木丛后生存下来的坚韧，那种生存方式，以及保持良好心态的精神。

So that person who is gonna try and put a roof over their head when they leave can own what's theirs, which is the tenacity to have what survived behind the bush, survived and lived in that way and maintained a good spirit.

而且这些人往往都乐于助人，关心身边的人，这本身就是一件值得骄傲的事，尤其是在你努力追求下一步的时候。

And often, these are people who are helpful to other people and are looking out for people around them, like, that is something to feel so good about as you strive for what comes next.

就像那些努力工作、学习、钻研的人，可以为自己的成就感到自豪；或者那些从事辛苦工作、得不到满足感、觉得是重体力劳动且报酬微薄的人，但他们依然坚持去上班，拿回薪水养家糊口，给家人一个遮风挡雨的地方，这样的人也应该为自己的付出感到骄傲。

Just as someone who has worked and learned and studied could feel good about the achievements they have or someone who goes to a difficult job that doesn't provide them with satisfaction that they feel is backbreaking labor and underpaid, but they go and do that and they take home a salary that supports a family and puts a roof over people's heads, feel proud of that.

当我们对自己感觉不好的时候，往往是因为我们与内心的创造力脱节了。

When we don't feel good about ourselves, often we are out of kilter with the generative drive within us.

这绝对是让人不开心的原因之一，但与此同时，还有一点就是没有真正拥有属于自己的东西。

That is absolutely a part of what makes people unhappy, but also coming along with that is not owning what is ours.

这些年来，有多少养家糊口、从外面看做了很多了不起事情的人，却跟我说，哎呀，自己一文不值。

And how many people who've raised families, right, done things that are so impressive from the outside have told me over the years that, oh, they're not worth anything.

他们觉得自己赚得不够多。

They didn't make enough money.

这个没做到。

They didn't do this.

那个也没做到。

They didn't do that.

那些其实并不重要。

And it's not what matters.

真正重要的，是我们内心的东西。

It is not what matters within us.

我们要做到最好的自己，尊重内心那种想要生活、想要创造的冲动。

It is being the best that we can be and honoring the drive inside of us to live and to create.

你会怎么说服一个正在听节目的人呢？他说：保罗，我明白你的意思，但如果非要在这两种极端里选一个，比如我住在灌木丛后面，虽然有点快乐，但一无所有——没有物质财产，在社会上也毫无地位；或者我在社会眼里非常成功，拥有成功带来的一切舒适和财富，但你却告诉我我不快乐。

How would you make the case to somebody who's listening to this and says, Paul, I get what you're saying, but there's no way that if I had to choose between those two extremes, meaning I live behind a bush, but I have some sort of happiness, but I have nothing, No material possessions, no status in society versus I could be incredibly successful in the eyes of society and with it have all of the comforts that come from that success, all of the wealth, but you'll tell me that I'm unhappy.

有些听众可能根本没法理解你在说什么，因为他们可能正处在中间状态。

Someone listening to us might not be able to even wrap their head around what you're saying because they might be right somewhere in the middle.

他们虽然没流落街头，但日子过得很艰难，而且他们认为自己的困境是因为缺少更高层次的东西。

They're not living on the street, but they're struggling and they believe that their struggle is because they don't have something greater.

甚至有人承认这一点，会说：对啊，但如果非要在这两者之间选一个，我宁愿物质上拥有全世界的舒适，哪怕内心很痛苦。

Or even they acknowledge it and say, yeah, but if I had to choose between those two, I'd rather have all the comfort of the world materially and be miserable.

这个问题听起来有点傻，但你会怎么向他们解释，这其实不是零和博弈，而是一个错误的二选一？我们稍后再回到这个话题。

It's a silly question, but how would you make the case to them that a, it's not a zero sum game and that's a false choice, so we'll come back to that.

但更重要的是，即使在那种极端选择里，为什么那不是明智的选择呢？

But more importantly, even in that extreme choice, why is that not the wise choice?

我会说，如果你处于中间状态，最好多了解一下这两种人，因为我知道我会选哪个。

I would say get to know people in both categories better if you're in the middle because I know what I would choose.

我的意思是，我绝对会选择那个没有任何物质财富的人。

I mean, I would absolutely choose that person who doesn't have any material possessions.

如果让我为自己做选择，自私的选择就是选那个人。

If I were making the choice for myself, like, the selfish choice is to choose that person.

我不想成为另一个人，因为我知道那并不快乐。

I don't want to be the other person because I know that's not happy.

我知道那会走向哪里。

I see where that goes.

我知道那种不满会带来什么，我不想要那样。

I see where the dissatisfaction leads and I don't want that.

我更愿意内心有那种让我觉得自己能做事、能带来改变的精神，因为我们都得有基本的生活保障才能有安全感和满足感，比如有房住、有饭吃。

I would much rather have within me the spirit that makes me feel like I can do something, I can make some change because we all need the basic minimum in order to have some safety and satisfaction, like a roof over our head, enough to eat.

但很多时候，如果你给一个人一点帮助，他们就能自己去闯出一片天地。

But oftentimes, if you give a person a little bit of help, they can go off and do that.

如果我是那个得到帮助的人，也许现在就能让生活向前迈进，我会对此感到非常兴奋。

If I were that person getting some help so that maybe now I can move my life forward, I would feel an enthusiasm about that.

我能让事情变得更好。

I can make things better.

我能拥有我所需要的最低限度的东西。

I can have the minimum that I need.

然后从那里开始，我选择去建设什么呢？

And from there, what is it that I choose to build?

当我们看满意度指标时，即使是今天仍然主要是狩猎采集的社会，或者那些我们从外部看来一无所有的社会，往往比我们更快乐。

When we look at measures of satisfaction, the societies that even today who are by and large hunter gatherer societies or the societies that we from the outside think have nothing are often happier than we are.

所以，这就是你的证据。

So, like, there's your proof.

这就是你的证据。

There is your proof.

所以我觉得，作为一个社会，我们有足够的资源，可以更好地照顾人们。

So I think as a society, we have so much plenty that we can look after people better.

我常说，我们生活在一个发展太快的社会，以至于我们总是在路上踩到别人。

I always say we live in a society that runs ahead so quickly that we're always trampling people along the way.

第一，这样做不对。

And one, it's just not right to do.

第二，我们中的任何一个人都可能成为那些遇到非常困难事情的人，面对非常大的挑战，然后又遇到另一个非常大的挑战，最终陷入需要别人拉一把的境地。

And two, any of us can be in that group of people who has something really difficult happen to them, was up against something really, really big, and then something else really, really big, and gets to a place where, like, we need a helping hand up.

我们中的任何一个人都可能成为那样的人，或者我们爱的人也可能成为那样的人。

And any of us could be that person, or someone we love could be that person.

即使不是这样，这样做也不对。

And even if that weren't the case, it's just not right.

即使不是这样，这样做在经济上也不划算。

And even if that weren't the case, it's not even economically efficient.

帮助人们成为对社会有贡献的成员。

Help people to be productive members of society.

这在经济上也很重要。

That's important economically.

当然，除了经济层面，更重要的是以人为本，但光是算经济账也告诉我们，在别人需要帮助时伸出援手是必要的。

And, of course, beyond economics is the human part that matters, but even just the dollars and cents of it tells us help people up when they need help.

我们可以为更多人提供机会，让他们能够自立自强，过上既有成就感又充满幸福的生活。

We can do more for people to give them an opportunity to make a life for themselves that can feel productive and contain happiness within it.

如果我们能为所有人做到这一点，就能让每个人心中那种创造价值的动力得以实现，无论这种动力具体表现为何。

And if we do this for all of us, we give all of us an opportunity to have the generative drive within us realized as that may be for us.

那些对学术学习和成功特别感兴趣的人可能会想，嘿，这挺不错的。

Someone who's very interested in academic learning and success may think, look, I like that.

我喜欢获得荣誉的时候。

I like when I get an accolade.

我喜欢学到新知识的时候。

I like when I learn something.

然后他们可能就去创业了，而且对此感觉非常好。

And then maybe they go off and they start building businesses and they feel great about that.

这真是太棒了。

Like, that's wonderful.

如果那个人对此感到满意，那确实很棒。

That is wonderful if that's what that person feels good about.

也有一些人过着充实而有意义的生活，他们是周围人的好邻居，如果他们选择对孩子负责，他们也会好好照顾孩子。

There are also people who live good productive lives, and they're good neighbors to the people around them, and they take care of children if they've chosen to be responsible for children.

这些人不应该觉得自己比别人差。

These aren't people who should feel any less good about themselves.

而这个世界上的讽刺之处在于，我经常看到这两类人都对自己不满意。

And the irony in the world is that often what I see are both groups of people are not feeling good about themselves.

他们没有获得应有的认可。

They're not earning what is theirs.

那些去学习、去创造、却无法为自己创造的财富感到自豪的人，现在可能对周围的人有益，但他们对此并不感到满足；而那些努力奋斗、为自己创造美好生活的人，却觉得自己拥有的还不够。

The person who went off and studied and created and can't feel good about the wealth they generated and now may be good for people around them and they don't feel good about that or the people who struggled and worked and made good lives for themselves don't feel that they have enough.

我看到这与关于衰老的观念有关，比如，我们应该为变老感到难过，我们应该为自己身上那些从外部看来不符合期望的地方感到难过。

I see this is coming along with this idea about aging that, oh, we should feel so bad about getting old and, oh, we should feel so bad about whatever we can identify in ourselves that isn't what we think it should be if we look from the outside.

其实，安安静静地坐下来，审视一下自己，或者和身边的人坐下来聊聊天，或者用笔写点东西，或者在治疗室里想想自己，这些都有一种很纯粹的简单。

There is a real simplicity in just sitting with ourselves and introspecting, or sitting with someone that we're talking to, or writing with a pen, or being in a therapy room of let me think about me.

因为事实是，我们每个人都不一样，真的都是独一无二的。

Because the truth is all of us are so different as to be really and truly unique.

所以，如果我们抛开那些试图把自己和周围所有的“应该”绑在一起的想法，然后说，我们来聊聊你的生活，聊聊你的人生经历，聊聊你在世界上生活、试图在这个难以掌控的世界里获得一些健康掌控感的体验。

So if we take ourselves out of how we try and tether ourselves to all the shoulds around us and say, let's talk about your life, and let's talk about what your experience of life has been, your experience of being in the world and trying to have some healthy control over a world that's difficult to control.

我们来聊聊这个。

Let's talk about that.

正是这些对话，引导人们做出有趣的决定。

And it's those discussions that lead people to interesting decisions.

有时候，是决定辞掉高薪工作，去做一份薪水更低的工作，但抑郁消失了，或者不再滥用药物了。

Sometimes, decisions to leave a very high paying job for a lower paying job, but then the depression goes away or the substance use goes away.

有时候，是决定追求更多，最终让一个人实现了外在的成功标准。

Sometimes, it's a decision to strive for more that leads a person ultimately to achieve external measures of success.

但我们不知道那是什么。

But we don't know what that is.

我们不知道那是什么。

We don't know what that is.

但如果我们开始思考并谈论它，我们也会回到基本问题，比如你如何照顾自己的身体。

But if we start thinking about it and talking about it, we also go back to the basics of how are you taking care of your body.

如果一个人不照顾好自己的基本身体机能，就很难感觉良好。

It's gonna be very difficult to feel good if one is not taking care of the basics of their physical function.

我们会回到第一性原理，身体健康，那些有助于延长寿命、健康寿命、认知健康和情绪健康的因素。

We get down to the first principles, physical health, the things that contribute to lifespan, healthspan, cognitive health, and emotional health.

但我们必须回到第一性原理，比如你是谁，让我们谈谈你的故事。

But we have to go back to the first principles of, like, who are you, and let's talk about your story.

因为那种理解会引导出接下来的决定，而这些决定从我们现在的立场来看并不明显。

Because that understanding is what leads to the next decisions, and the next decisions are not obvious from where we stand now.

以下内容在预测价值方面会有多积极？

How positive in terms of its predictive value would the following be?

再说一次，我仍然把它当作一种自我审计工具来思考。

And again, I'm still thinking through this as almost a self audit tool.

如果一个人表面上意识到自己没有照顾好身体健康，比如喝太多酒、抽烟、不健康地使用药物、吃太多、不运动，所有这些情况。

If a person ostensibly recognizes that they are not taking care of their physical health, okay, they're drinking too much, smoking, using substances in an unhealthy way, eating too much, not exercising, all of these things.

如果一个人能客观地认识到这些事实，而且这通常是比较容易认识到的，那么PPV是多少？

If a person can recognize objectively that those things are true, and that's a generally pretty easy thing to recognize, what is the PPV?

这个迹象的阳性预测值，表明我内心有某种不健康的东西。

The positive predictive value of that sign that says there is something unhealthy going on in me emotionally.

认识到这个迹象？

Recognizing the sign?

如果这些迹象存在，比如身体上没有做那些让你成为身体上最好的自己的事情，我们假设这很容易识别。

If those signs are present, the sort of physical not doing the things to make yourself the best version of yourself physically, let's assume that that's easy to recognize.

那么它有多大可能预测你在情绪上不健康？

How likely is it to then be predictive of the fact that you're emotionally unhealthy?

哦，非常高，非常高。

Oh, very very high.

预测值非常高，因为想想这两者之间的联系是什么？

Very very high predictive value because think about what's the link between the two?

每天起床感觉不好，这感觉可不好受。

Doesn't feel good to get up every day and not feel good.

知道自己不健康、精力低下，或者照镜子时对自己说“我本可以、本应该健康”，这些都不好受。

Doesn't feel good to know that one is unhealthy and energy levels are low or doesn't feel good to look at oneself in the mirror and say I could, would, should be healthy.

对吧？

Right?

或者跟不上孩子的步伐，或者内心有什么东西让我们意识到这一点。

Or to not be able to keep up with one's kids or whatever it is that goes on inside of us that makes us know that.

如果这种情况发生，说明我们内心有些东西不太对劲。

If that's going on, something isn't aligned well within us.

那原因是什么呢？

What is the reason for that?

是不是我得做这个、那个，所以没时间照顾自己？

Do I have to work to do this, this, and this so I don't have time to take care of myself?

或者我得待在这个我讨厌的工作里。

Or I've gotta be in this job I hate.

我压力太大了。

I'm so stressed.

我们找了一堆理由，但其实都站不住脚。

We have all these reasons, but there aren't good reasons.

眼下我们就只能面对这些现实。

This is what we have.

我们的身体和大脑才是最重要的本钱。

Our bodies and our minds are what we have.

所以，把这些问题抛在一边、不去理会的想法，肯定是不对的。

So the idea that we can just push that aside and not pay attention to it, like, can't be right.

我们在前进的过程中，如果对拥有的一切不够重视和关注，那肯定也是不对的。

They cannot be right to not pay enough care and attention to everything that we have as we move forward.

关键在于保持好奇心，把这两者联系起来。

So the key is the curiosity to link the two.

如果我们愿意从这个角度去看，那么如果存在情绪上的失衡，或者心理健康方面的问题，其阳性预测值是很高的。

So there's a high positive predictive value that there is something emotionally then out of balance if we wanna look at it that way or something in the mental health realm, whatever it may be.

但最终结果好不好，关键在于那份好奇心能不能把两者联系起来。

But whether or not good comes of that is the link of curiosity.

保罗，这太神奇了，因为这是我们所有人身上都非常常见的表现。

It's amazing Paul because that's such a common phenotype for all of us.

我自己也不例外。

I include myself in this category.

我确实有一些这样的行为。

There are absolutely things that I do.

对我来说，很明显就是经常暴饮暴食。

For me it's clearly overindulging in food often.

即使我对自己说，彼得，你不需要再吃这份额外的甜点或别的什么了。

Even when I'm saying to myself, Peter, you don't need to be eating this extra helping of dessert or whatever.

我该怎么看待这件事，才能不过度分析或过度解读呢？

How do I think about that in a way to not overanalyze this or over interpret it?

你怎么判断我的暴饮暴食是不是一个警示信号，提醒我内心有情绪上的问题呢？

How do you decide if my overeating is actually a canary in the coal mine that says, hey, there's something going on inside of you emotionally.

我妻子和我经常聊这个，她会说，你现在真的是在情绪化进食。

And my wife and I will talk about this all the time, she'll be like, you are really emotionally eating right now.

我觉得我们经常讨论这个问题。

And I think we talk about that a lot.

我想我们大概明白那是什么意思。

I think we understand sort of what that means.

她会说，你压力太大了，赶紧从那个该死的食品储藏室出来。

She's like, you're so stressed out, get out of the freaking pantry.

你每隔二十分钟就回来一趟，手都伸进薯片桶里了。

You've been walking back in here every twenty minutes and you're elbow deep in the Pringles.

到底怎么回事？

What's going on?

这算是有病吗？

Is there pathology there?

有时候这算是一种可以接受的应对方式吗？

Is that sometimes an okay coping strategy?

我想小心一点，不要把所有东西都说得那么糟糕，但同时我也想把它们当作一些信号来用。

Like I want to be careful not to kind of demonize everything, but at the same time I want to be able to use this as signs.

因为再说一次，我又回到这个想法，天哪，在健康这个领域，我们没有生物标记物。

Because again, I'm coming back to this idea of, man, when it comes to this domain of health, we don't have biomarkers.

我们没有能给出答案的扫描、血液测试，或者那些可以客观测量的检查。

We don't have scans that give us answers, blood tests, tests that you can do with objective measurements.

我在寻找其他方法来了解，至少怎么开始问问题，以便获得帮助。

I'm searching for other ways to gain an insight into how do I at least start asking questions to get myself help.

在你说的那个场景里，当它成为谈话的话题，比如，嘿，你在那样做，你压力很大，你在情绪化进食，那我们大概知道有点问题了。

In the scenario you gave where it's a subject of conversation like, hey, you're doing that, you're stressed, you're emotionally eating, then we kinda know there's something there.

但很多时候，一个起点是，我们是不是在过度管理自己？

But a lot of times, a place to start is, are we over managing ourselves?

偶尔放纵一下是没问题的。

Every now and then, like, a little bit of indulgence is okay.

所以我们要确保我们批评的不是那个，而是真正认识到一些不需要生物标记物就能发现的东西。

So let's make sure that it's not that that we're criticizing, that we're actually recognizing something that we don't need a biomarker for.

你看，当我压力很大的时候，我会吃一些我不想吃的东西，当时会稍微缓解一下，但之后我会感觉更糟，然后还得想办法去弥补。

Look, when I am very stressed, I am eating in ways I don't want to be and it soothes me a little bit at the moment and then I feel worse about it and I gotta go do something to make up for it.

这真的不好。

Like, that's not good.

这就是表面上的问题。

That is face validity.

这显然就是不好。

That's just very clearly not good.

所以我们能做的，而且经常做的，就是继续这样下去，意识到这一点，但也就到此为止了。

So then what we can do and often do is just simply perpetuate that, to recognize that and it goes no further.

然后我们继续这样做。

Then we continue to do it.

而不是说，哇，这正是该好奇的地方。

As opposed to saying, woah, this is the place for curiosity.

这很有意思。

That's interesting.

如果你是因为饿了而吃，或者因为压力大而吃，你内心的感受有什么不同？

What is different about the feeling inside of you if you eat because you're hungry or you eat because you're stressed?

你能分辨出这种区别吗？

Can you recognize that difference?

如果你留心的话，也许你能分辨出来，很多人都能做到。

And maybe you can if you're paying attention to it, a lot of people can.

如果不行，那周围的环境是怎样的？

And if not, what's the context around?

你可以对自己内心的状况有个了解，然后这符合我们人类常做的事——为了短期的满足，而牺牲长期来看不好的东西。

You can have an idea of what's going on inside of you, and then it fits into this human thing that we do, which is short term gratification at the expense of something that in the long term is negative.

这就是为什么我们在医学院的时候，人们对研究成瘾不太感兴趣。

This is why when we were back in medical school, people were not very interested in studying addiction.

当时认为成瘾与其他心理健康问题无关，是那些做了不该做的事然后无法停止的人。

And the thought was that addiction was separate from other mental health things, and it was people who were doing something they shouldn't and then weren't able to stop.

我觉得那是一种非常贬低和不关心的态度。

And it was a very, I thought, denigrating and disinterested approach.

现在情况大不一样了，因为我觉得这个领域已经认识到，这些成瘾机制其实一直在我们每个人身上发生。

It is so different now because what I think the field has come to recognize is that these addiction mechanisms is going on in all of us all the time.

用一点不健康的食物来短暂安抚自己，却以长期对自己感觉不好为代价，这也是同一个循环的一部分。

The short term soothing of a little bit of food that isn't healthy for you at the expense of you feeling badly about yourself in the longer term is part of that same cycle.

同样的脑部机制被利用，让我们过度重视短期利益而忽视长期后果，同时却无视自己正在这样做的事实。

It's the same brain machinery that is getting harnessed so that we over prioritize the short term at the expense of the long term while looking away from the fact that we are doing that.

如果我们好奇，为什么会这样？

And if we become curious, why is it?

你内心深处有什么东西，让你这样一个擅长长远规划、能放弃即时满足的人，会想用食物来立刻满足自己？

What crests inside of you that you, a person who's very good at looking at the long term and foregoing immediate gratification and all of that, would say, I wanna sue this right now with food.

如果我们去探究这个，就会想，我们肯定能对此做点什么。

If we look at that, the thought would be, we've gotta be able to do something about that.

你做过比意识到自己内心有情绪更难的事情，比如，等等，让我去看看那是什么？

You've done much harder things than to realize, oh, there's an emotion inside of me, like, wait, let me go look at what is that?

那是什么情绪？

What is that emotion?

这情绪是从哪儿来的？

Where is it coming from?

也许你当下没法立刻控制住这种情绪，但它可能会提醒你：我生活中的这件事，或许需要做些调整。

And maybe you can't stop the emotion in the moment, but it might tell you, hey, this thing in my life should be a little bit different.

或者它可能告诉你，我经常会有这种情绪波动。

Or it might say, I crest like this with relative frequency.

这样正常吗？

Is this okay?

我能照顾好自己吗？

Can I take care of myself?

因为有时候，这些问题的答案并不容易。

Because sometimes it's harder answers to that.

答案可能是，人应该少做点事。

The answer might be, well, a person should do less.

答案不是让你继续做所有事情，同时还要压抑那些涌上来的情绪。

The answer isn't keep doing everything that you're doing and, like, don't have these emotions that crest in certain ways.

你知道吗，答案可能是，你为什么在做你现在做的所有这些事情？

You know, the answer might be, why are you doing all the things that you're doing?

再说一遍，我不是说你的情况就是这样，但我们都得看看这个问题。

And again, I'm not saying this is the case for you, but we need to all look at this.

我内心发生了什么，让某件事突然涌上来，然后我一下子就把短期目标放在优先位置？

What is going on inside of me that something is cresting and all of a sudden I prioritize the short term?

而我却没有正视这一点。

And I don't look at that.

这可能是每周一次、持续三十次心理治疗的开始，和一个人聊聊我们内心的这种模式，看看我们在生活中各种事情上是怎么处理它的。

And this can be the beginning of 30 sessions of weekly therapy of with a person of talking about this paradigm within us of how are we doing this for all sorts of things in life?

我们可能在为自己的选择找什么理由，无论是个人还是职业上的？

What might we be rationalizing about our choices, personal and professional?

我们是怎么照顾自己的？

How are we taking care of ourselves?

我们内心的氛围是什么样的？

What's the climate inside of us?

因为当一个人从外表看起来在照顾自己，也许确实如此，你能从外表看出来，但他们内心却非常沮丧，或者非常害怕，或者过度管理自己来弥补某些东西，那我们不一定能看到这些其实并不健康。

Because when a person seems to be taking care of themselves from the outside, and maybe it is, you can see from the outside, But they're so frustrated on the inside or they're so afraid or they're so overly managing themselves to make up for something, then we don't necessarily see that that keeps them healthy.

可能存在更高的炎症水平，这会增加心血管疾病或自身免疫性疾病的风险。

There may be a higher inflammatory state that increases risk of cardiovascular disease, for example, or of autoimmune phenomena.

比如，我们知道这种情况会发生。

Like, we know this happens.

所以我们必须对自己保持好奇，而且我们对自己隐藏的东西真是令人惊讶。

So we have to be curious about ourselves, and it is amazing what we hide from ourselves.

我们在生活中隐藏了太多内心发生的事情，甚至对自己也隐藏，以维持我们认定重要的某个方向。

We go through life hiding so much of what is going on inside of us from ourselves in the service of maintaining some direction we've decided was important.

我必须去做那件事。

I've gotta go do that.

我必须去实现那个目标。

I've gotta go achieve that.

然后我们给自己戴上眼罩，不去看。

And then we put these blinders on ourselves, and we don't look.

我这么说你能理解吗？

Does this make sense for me?

我有没有做到最好？

Am I being the best person that I can be?

我的人生优先级到底是什么？是个人生活、职业，还是照顾在乎的人，亦或是追求成就？

What's the whole set of priorities in my life, personal and professional self care about other people that you care about, about achievement?

我平衡得怎么样？

Am I balancing all of this right?

令人惊讶的是，我们很少去审视自己为什么不快乐，或者留意那些不快乐的信号。

And it's remarkable how little we inquire of ourselves about our own unhappiness or markers of our own unhappiness.

就拿情绪性暴食来说吧，这也许不是导致一个人极度痛苦的唯一原因，但背后肯定有些不对劲的地方，说明内心并不开心，跟自己也不合拍。

Even like excessive emotional eating, it may not be the determinant of absolute misery for a person, but like there's something going on there that's not happy, that's not in alignment with oneself.

我觉得这里有个连续谱，就像我们刚才聊到的，有些人从外表看，很明显就没照顾好自己。

I think there's this continuum from what we just talked about which is people that are from the outside, it's obvious that they're not taking care of themselves.

而且，这种情况下的模式其实有很多种。

And again, the patterns here are many.

可能只是全面性的问题。

It could be just a straight up across the board.

我睡不好。

I don't sleep well.

我不锻炼。

I don't exercise.

我吃得不好。

I don't eat well.

我喝酒过量。

I drink to excess.

在这种情况下，我想外人很容易看出来，嘿，你这里有点问题，你在做一些伤害自己的事情，我们应该探讨一下原因。

And in those situations, I guess it becomes pretty obvious to someone on the outside, hey, there's something going on here that you're acting in a manner that is harmful to yourself, we should explore why.

然后还有一种间歇性的例子，我拿自己举例，嘿，大部分时间你对自己照顾得还算不错。

Then you have kind of the intermittent example I talk about using myself as an example of, hey, for the most part, you're taking reasonable care of yourself.

但你真的会有这些爆发时刻，你用一些不良行为来缓解压力或安抚自己。

But then you really have these breakout moments where you're soothing something, some stress with a maladaptive behavior.

然后当然还有我过去可能所处的状态，我觉得也有不少人，虽然没那么多人，也处于这种状态，就是过度管理，也就是说你要做到完美，你要在任何客观标准下，把健康状态调整到完美无缺。

And then of course you have probably where I think I used to live and I think there are a lot of people though not nearly as many who also live here, which is the over management, which is you're going to be perfect, you're going to be by any objective measure, you're going to have it perfectly dialed in with respect to your health.

你要像机器人一样吃饭，像机器人一样锻炼，像机器人一样睡觉，等等。

You're going to eat like a robot, exercise like a robot, sleep like a robot, etc.

这种状态可能更难让人自我审视，对吧？

That's probably a harder one to get people to look inside and see, isn't it?

如果你在跟这样的人交谈，或者有正在听我们节目的人可能就是这样的人，你会怎么帮助他们意识到，虽然表面上看他们做得很好，看起来他们做的一切都那么完美，显然他们一定是出于健康的心态才这么做的？

And if you were if you were talking to somebody like that and can somebody watching us who might be that person, how would you help them come to realize that while on the surface that looks really good and it looks like they're doing everything so well that they clearly must be doing this from a place of health?

你会怎么至少挑战一下他们的这种想法？

How would you at least challenge their thinking on that?

一种方法是用老弗洛伊德学派的方式来看待这个问题，这种方式并不会因为年代久远而失去其有效性。

One route of approach is the old sort of Freudian way of seeing this, which is no less valid just because it's old.

老弗洛伊德学派并非什么都对，但他们确实在某些方面非常正确。

And the old Freudians didn't get everything right, but boy, they really got some things right.

他们把这种状态称为生活在自我中。

And they thought of this as what they thought of as living in the ego.

这可不是现代心理学里说的那个自我概念。

It wasn't the modern idea of ego.

那指的是一个人状态最好、最具备自我觉察的时候。

It's like, that's a person at their best, at their most self aware.

活在自我里其实并不容易。

And it's not easy to live in the ego.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我们必须得审视自己，才能具备自我意识，才能意识到我们并非对一切都了如指掌。

Like, we have to think about ourselves in order to be self aware, in order to be aware that we're not aware of everything.

所以我的想法是，尽我所能去理解我自己，了解我内心的状况，明白我的希望和恐惧是什么，我想要什么，取得了哪些成就，以及我在害怕什么。

So it's this idea that as best I can, like, understand myself and what's going on inside of me, and what my hopes and fears are, and what I want, what I have achieved, and what I'm afraid of.

这一切都存在于我们的内心和思想之中。

It's it's all within us and the ideas.

在此基础上，我们才能健康地掌控自己的生活，同时保持自我的另外两个方面处于平衡状态。

From there, then we can healthily control our lives, but we're keeping two other aspects of ourselves in balance.

他们所说的本我，就是追求即时满足的欲望。

And what they thought of as the id was the desire for immediate gratification.

我现在感觉不好。

I feel bad now.

吃的在哪？

Where's the food?

我们都有那一面。

There's that part of us.

我想要什么就要什么，而且现在就要。

I want what I want, and I want it now.

我们一边有这种冲动，另一边是他们所说的超我，也就是管束我们的那一部分。

There's that part of us on one side, and the other side is what they call the superego, the part that manages us.

超我会说，你想现在要什么就要什么，但那样不行。

That says, you want what you want when you want now, but, like, that's not okay.

你得管住自己。

Keep yourself in check.

我们内心有这些部分，有的管着我们，有的想要放纵，而中间那个完整的我们，必须意识到这一切，并让它们保持平衡。

And there are these parts of us that manage us and that want indulgence, and that it's us, the whole us in the middle that has to recognize all that and keep it all in balance.

我们看到，他们称之为超我的那个自我管理部分，在你说的那种情况下，常常会压倒其他部分，这可不是好事。

And what we see is that part they call the superego, the self management often gets very, in the circumstances you're talking about, gains supremacy over the others, and that's not good.

我们就是这样把迫害者内化的。

That's how we internalize the persecutor.

有时候这很相似，但这是个真实的故事。有个我从没见过的人来我办公室，我正开始了解他，他告诉我他正被某个人迫害，那个人说他什么都做不了，一文不值。他描述着这一切，我心里想，好吧。

There have been times it's a parallel to this, but this is a true story where someone who I haven't seen before who is in my office and I'm getting to know them, and they're telling me about being really persecuted by someone who says you can't do anything and you're not worth anything, and they're describing and talking about all of this, and I'm thinking, okay.

好吧。

Okay.

让我们想想，这个人住在哪里？

Let's think about where is this person living?

我们怎么才能让他离开那里？

How can we get them out of there?

然后我得知，那个人已经去世七年了，但这个人把迫害者——那个说你不够好的声音——内化到了自己心里。

And then I learn that other person has been dead for seven years, but the person took into themselves the persecutor, the you're not good enough.

这种声音可能来自外部，而且当它来自外部时，确实很引人注目，而且这种情况经常发生。

Now that can come from outside of us, and that's very striking when it comes from outside of us, and it does often.

它并不罕见，也不是什么稀奇事。

It's not striking and rare.

它很引人注目，而且相对频繁。

It's striking and relatively frequent.

它也可能来自我们内心。

It can also come inside of us.

虽然可能有一些外部的影响，但它也可能来自我们内心，比如我决定要让自己变得足够好，就要不断责骂自己、折磨自己，直到自己变得完美。

Now there's probably some external modeling, but it can come inside of us where I decide the way I'm gonna be good enough is I'm going to berate myself and torment myself until I'm perfect.

完美不仅仅是“足够好”的敌人。

Perfect isn't just the enemy of good enough.

完美其实是所有不痛苦的事物的敌人。

Perfect is really the enemy of everything that's not misery.

没有人是完美的。

No one is perfect.

没有任何东西是完美的。

Nothing is perfect.

当我们过度控制自己的时候，我们就是在这样告诉自己。

When we're over managing ourselves, that's what we're telling ourselves.

我们内心那个所谓的超我部分，总是在审视着我们。

This superego part of us, if we wanna call it that, is always looking at us.

你到底哪里做错了？

What are you doing wrong?

哪里不对呢？

What's not right?

哪里不够好？

What's not good enough?

这就变成了一种非常严厉的自我批判的声音，而且很多时候我们意识不到这其实来自我们内心。

And that becomes a very harsh critical voice, and often we don't know that that's inside of us.

我有时候会讲一个故事：有个人明明智商很高，也做过不少成绩，但实际表现却远远低于大家的预期，属于严重未发挥潜力，当时我怎么也想不通他是怎么回事。

I tell the story at times of a person who was very underachieving given this person's level of intelligence and other things that they had done, and they were so below in role performance, what one might have expected and I couldn't understand them.

我开始问问题，试着去理解。

I started asking questions and I'm trying to understand.

然后我意识到这个人热爱音乐。

And then I realized this person loved music.

于是我问，你在听什么音乐？

So I said, what music are you listening to?

我了解到这个人会开很长时间的车去一个根本不需要做的糟糕工作，而且在车里不听音乐。

I I learned the person was taking these long drives to go to some awful job that they didn't have to have and they weren't listening to music in the car.

他们不听音乐。

We're not listening to it.

现在我们有了线索，为什么这个人热爱音乐，是个音乐发烧友。

So now we have a clue why is it this person loves music, is a music aficionado.

因为没有音乐，在去工作和回来的漫长车程中，这个人会毫无顾忌地告诉自己他们有多差劲。

Because without the music, the person could uninhibited on all that long drive to the job and all the drive back, tell them what garbage they were.

他们有多失败。

What a loser they were.

这件事一直持续着。

This was going on the whole time.

事实上，这个人去的工作地点比原本可以去的更远，就是为了多花点时间来自我批评和贬低自己。

In fact, the person was going to a farther away job than they could have gone to to have more time to criticize and berate themselves.

虽然这是个极端情况，但像我们看到的这类事情其实并不少见。

And it's an extreme circumstance, but it's not that uncommon that we see things like this.

而这个人需要停止这种行为，这样才能提升工作表现，其效果远比之前好得多。

And that person needed to stop that in order to increase role performance, which is vastly higher than it was before.

跟以前相比，变化真的挺大的。

It's remarkably different than it was before.

但那种通过自我批评来追求完美的做法，是因为当你深入探索时，会发现当事人其实并没有意识到自己是在虐待自己。

But the search for perfectionism through self criticism, because when you explore that, the person wasn't aware that they were being sadistic to themselves.

没人会直接说："到底是怎么回事？我竟然在虐待自己？"

No one says that when you say, what's really going on there that actually I'm being sadistic to myself?

这真的是我需要做的吗？

Is this what I need to do?

这就是我让自己继续前进的方式。

This is how I keep myself moving forward.

这就是我让自己去任何工作的方式。

This is how might get myself going to any job.

不。

No.

不是的。

It's not.

不。

No.

这是你在压制自己。

This is how you're keeping yourself down.

但我们内心的那些声音非常强大，是的，我举了几个非常有力的例子，但它们并不是那种极端的例子，让人觉得‘哦，这跟我们内心的想法太不一样了’。

But those voices inside of us are very powerful, and yes, I've given a couple really strong examples, but they're not outlying examples where, oh, they're so different from what goes on in us.

我觉得这些例子是为了说明我们内心经常发生的事情，我们试图管理自己，无论是追求完美，还是感到害怕，或者感到羞耻，这些方式对我们自己非常有害。

I think they're examples to elucidate what very often is going on inside of us, where we are trying to manage ourselves, whether we're being perfectionist about it, or we are afraid, or we are ashamed in ways that are very very harmful to us.

因为我觉得这种自我对话会摧毁动力，摧毁自信，增加炎症指标，增加生病风险，带来的坏处太多了，但很多人心里都有这种声音。

Because I think that kind of self talk destroys motivation, destroys confidence, increases levels of inflammatory markers, increases risk of illness, like there's so much bad that comes of that, but that's inside of a lot of us.

这种声音就在心里，如果一个人

That is inside and if a person

能意识到吗？

aware of it?

是的。

Yes.

他们停下来想一想，你心里是不是也有这种声音？

They stop and think like is that inside of you?

很多人停下来一想，就会发现，对，我早上洗澡的时候就在对自己说，今天别搞砸了，或者昨天哪里做错了，你知道吗，太多了。

It's remarkable how many people stop and think and yeah, I'm in the shower in the morning telling myself of all the things you better not mess up today or what did you do wrong yesterday or you know, there's so

那你是不是得先引导这个人，才能让他们有意识地意识到自己在做什么？

much Did did you have to prime this particular individual to get them to recognize consciously what they were doing?

当然。

Oh, sure.

因为我们聊了一段时间，所以很明显这个人之前并没有意识到这一点。

Because we had been talking for a while, so clearly the person wasn't aware of it.

我们得通过提问的方式，偶然发现一些不合理的地方。

We had to through a process of inquiry, we had to stumble across something that didn't make sense.

所以当我了解到，哦，这个人喜欢音乐，我就把这个记在心里了。

So when I learned, oh, this person loves music, I just got that in my head.

这就是这个人的习惯。

This is what this person does.

他们在家的时候会听音乐，而且他们通勤的路程很长，然后我发现他们并没有在听音乐，于是我就对此产生了好奇。

They listen to music when they're home, and they have this really long drive, and then I learned they're not listening to music, then I become curious about that.

也许他们喜欢看窗外是有其他原因的。

Now maybe there was another reason they like looking out the window.

我不知道。

I don't know.

但就像是，等等，等等，我们在这里探究一下。

But it's like, wait, wait, let's inquire there.

所以当我指出这一点时，你开车时间更长，却不做自己喜欢的事情，这是在惩罚自己。

So then when I point that out, you're taking a longer drive and not doing something you enjoy in order to punish yourself.

那么，我们现在对此感到好奇了。

Well, now we have curiosity about that.

如果你求助的人都在提醒你这一点，你怎么可能不好奇呢？

How can you not be curious about that if someone you've gone to for help is drawing your attention to that?

这通常就是我们开始改变的方式，即使在我自己的治疗中也是如此，我意识到一直有一个消极的批评声音，而这并不是帮助我前进所必需的。

And that's often how we start changing things even within myself and in my own therapy of realizing there was such a negative critical voice all the time and that wasn't needed to help me move forward with life.

在某个时候，试图控制周围的事物，害怕不成功或不够好，这让我开始严格管理自己。

At some point in time, trying to control things around me and feeling afraid of not being successful or not being good enough leads me to start managing myself pretty closely.

但后来我不再那么严格管理自己了，比如高中时，我一年可以参加三项运动，同时还能保持学业。

But then I stopped managing myself for like when I was in high school, I could do three sports over the course of the year and still maintain academics.

学会平衡乐趣和工作是件好事。

That was good to learn how to do that and balance fun and work.

但后来好事过头了。

But then it gets to be too much of a good thing.

现在我要用批评自己来管理自己，告诉自己所有可能出错的地方，预知自己的感受，并确保一切都完美无缺，当然这不可能。

And now I'm gonna manage myself by being so critical and telling myself all the things could go wrong and knowing how I'll feel and making damn sure that nothing is any less than perfect, which of course it is.

现在我感觉更糟了，这在我身上，也在很多人身上，就是为什么我外表看起来成功，但很长很长时间里，我其实不快乐，抑郁，对很多事情感到羞愧，你知道，我不得不通过自己的努力把这些感受从心里清除出去。

And now I feel worse about myself and that in me, like in many people, was why I could look successful from the outside, but for a long long time was really not happy and depressed and ashamed of things and, you know, feeling in ways I had to then through my own work get out of me.

正是这样的经历帮助我获得了洞察。

And it's it's experiences like this that helped me have insights.

我想，你知道，一个人不必亲身经历某些事才能知道别人正在经历这些。

Think, you know, one doesn't need to take go through something to know that others are.

但因为我经历过很多类似的事情，你知道，我明白了外表看到的并不能告诉你内心真正发生了什么。

But having been through a lot of that, you know, I've learned what you see on the outside doesn't tell you at all what's going on on the inside.

就像看到一栋漂亮的房子，你并不知道里面发生了什么。

Like, seeing a beautiful home doesn't tell you what's going on on the inside of it.

里面住着什么样的人？

Who are the people?

他们相处得怎么样？

How are they behaving?

他们健康吗？

Are they healthy?

这并不是说外表不重要。

It's not that it's irrelevant.

外表漂亮的房子固然好，但如果一栋房子外表看起来不怎么样，那也不代表什么。

There's a beautiful home on the outside, but it's also not irrelevant if let's say there is a home that doesn't look so good on the outside.

里面可能充满了美好和幸福，我们知道这是事实。

There could be so much beauty inside of it and so much happiness inside of it, and we know those things are true.

你我都经历过生活，都知道这些是真的。

And you and I both been around life enough to know that those things are true.

所以让我们把这一点放在首位。

So let's bring that to the forefront.

既然我们知道这些是真的，那就用同样的好奇心去审视自己的内心，不要害怕面对可能发现的东西。

If we know those things are true, Let's look inside of us with the same curiosity and not having to hide from ourselves what we might find there.

我在书里稍微写过一点关于发现内心声音的事，就我而言，那真是令人震惊。

I wrote a little bit about this in the book about the discovery of the inner voice and in my case it was so startling.

我说惊人，不是因为我内心有独白，我想我们很多人都有，而是因为那个声音有多凶，就像鲍比·奈特那样。

I say startling not because I had an inner monologue, which I suppose many of us do, but in terms of how aggressive and the Bobby Knight voice.

但对我来说真的很特别，有一天在PCS我突然有了突破，所有那些都涌了出来，原来那就是实际发生的事。

But it was remarkable to me, I just had a breakthrough one day at PCS where all of that came out, that that's what was actually happening.

想到我生命中四十七年过去了，大概有四十五年都带着那个声音，却从未意识到它，这让我有点难过。

It's a little sad to me to realize that whatever forty seven years of my life went by, probably forty five of them with that voice and yet no recognition of it.

而让我害怕的是，这告诉我，外面肯定有很多人，他们脑子里可能也有同样糟糕的声音。

And why that is frightening to me is it tells me there have to be a lot of other people out there with potentially as awful a voice in their head.

他们现在可能正在听我们说话，心想，是啊，那太可怕了。

They might be listening to us now thinking, yeah, that would be awful.

但他们也有那种声音，却意识不到。

And yet they have it and they don't recognize it.

对。

Right.

如果你对它的体验让它变得正常，而且如果你在某种程度上对它投入了情感，觉得这个声音让你表现和取得成就，让你自我感觉良好，但你又不够自信，所以特别害怕感觉更糟，那么它几乎就获得了某种价值。

If your experience of it normalizes it, and also if you have an emotional investment on some level that this voice is causing you to behave and achieve in ways that let you feel good enough about yourself and then you don't feel good enough about yourself, so you're really afraid of feeling worse, then it gains almost a buy.

我们不会去审视它，它就那样被放过了。

We don't go and look at that, it just gets a pass.

这种情况经常发生。

That happens all the time.

我们内心就是这么自动化的，就像有些人，大约二十岁左右会患上之前没有的精神分裂症，他们听到自己内心的声音，直到多年以后才意识到那是不正常的。

It's so automatic within us just as there are people who say, around 20 years of age can have schizophrenia that they didn't have before, and they're hearing voices inside of them, and it's only till years later that they realize that's not normal.

因为他们有了听到内心声音的经历，他们不知道那是不正常的。

Because they had an experience of now hearing voices inside of them, and they don't know that that's not normal.

即使是我们认为与大多数人的经历截然不同的事情，但如果你正在经历它，它对你来说并不不同，而且它出现的方式并没有一个标记告诉我们它是不健康的。

Like, even something we would think of that's so different than what most people are experiencing, but it's not different from what you're experiencing if you're experiencing it, and it's come about in a way that didn't have a marker that told us that it was not healthy.

我们谈论的内容有一个共同的主题，那就是内省和好奇心，比如，哇。

There's a common theme to what we're talking about which is introspection, curiosity of like, wow.

我内心可能有一些东西，对我想要实现的目标，比如更好的健康寿命或更好的情绪健康，非常不利。

There could be things going on inside of me that are wildly unhelpful to the things I'm trying to achieve like better healthspan and lifespan, or better emotional health.

它们非常适得其反，而且它们就在表面下进行，就像隐藏着一样。

They're wildly counterproductive, and they're just going on on the surface, like they're hiding.

它们就在那儿挥舞着旗子，而我却根本没注意到。

There they are waving a flag, and I'm not paying any attention to it.

所以，这就是对自己的好奇心，比如，我是怎么运作的？

So it is curiosity about ourselves, like, how do I work?

我内心到底发生了什么，才让一切变得不同？

What is going on inside of me that makes all the difference?

当我们开始思考这些，我们就会意识到它们，那时我们就能做出改变。

And when we start thinking about that, we become aware of it, that's when we can change.

因为你刚才描述的是同时感受到这一切。

Because you described feeling all this all at once.

但这就是人们发生改变的方式。

But that's how change happens in people.

海明威有句很棒的名言，我可能引用得不太准确，大意是：改变发生得非常缓慢，然后突然就变得很快。

There's a great Hemingway quote, which I'm paraphrasing incorrectly, which was change happens incredibly slowly and then very quickly.

对。

Right.

你可以想想量子跃迁，或者像渐近函数这样的数学概念，毕竟我和你都是搞数学的。

And you think about quantum leaps or you and I both mathematics people like asymptotic function.

我们想表达的是不连续性。我觉得这在各个层面都成立，从量子物理一直到天体物理都是如此。

What we're getting at is discontinuity that even I think this is true on all levels down from, like, quantum physics through to astrophysics.

你会发现，我们的存在之所以可能，是因为我们身处这种对抗熵增的涡流之中。在宇宙绝大多数地方，万物都在分裂和扩散，但在这些地方，某些力量却反其道而行之。

You see that we are only here because we are in these eddy pools of counter entropy where instead of everything dividing and dispersing like it does in the vast majority of the universe, there are these places where, oh, certain forces, you know, go the other way.

这里不是事物在分崩离析，而是在聚拢结合。所以，无论是宏观还是微观层面，我们内在的运作方式都是：存在一些罕见或低频的理解与变化过程，但只要我们找对方向去观察，就能把它们带到表面来。

Now there's not things coming apart but coming together, and so whether we're looking at the biggest levels or we're looking at the smallest levels, the way that things work inside of us is that there are processes of understanding and change that are rare or infrequent, but that we can bring to the surface by looking in the right place.

放眼整个宇宙，你看到的绝大部分都是没有生命的。

If you look all over the universe, most of what you see is no life.

但如果你把目光投向那些‘聚合’力量大于‘离散’力量的地方，你就会发现，哦，那里正在发生一些事情。

But if you look in the right places where those forces of coming together are more than coming apart, then you see, oh, there's something that's happening there.

人也是一样，如果我们关注那些正在发生的内在变化，就能获得非常迅速的理解，就像数学函数里的突变或者量子跃迁一样快。

The same way inside of us, if we're looking where things are happening, then we can gain understandings that happen very, very quickly just as in mathematical functions or quantum leaps.

这些过程其实是连续不断的。

These things are this continuous.

所以当你发展的时候，我想这就是我的想法。

So when you develop I think this will be my thought about that.

当你对自己产生好奇，这引导你去做一些事情，在这些事情中你思考自己，并且借助外界的其他人来思考自己，你长期这样做，然后现在你去做一些高强度的事情，突然间有些事情就变得清晰了。

When you have a curiosity about yourself that leads you to now do something where you're thinking about yourself, and you're thinking about yourself with the help of other people outside of you, and you've engendered this across time, and now you go do something that's intensive, then all of a sudden something becomes clear to you.

然后你发现，哦，我现在对这个感兴趣了。

And you see, oh, I'm now interested in this.

然后你开始做所有当你对某件事感兴趣时会做的事情，比如，为什么这个会在这里？

And now you start to do all the things that you do when you're interested in things like, why is this here?

它是怎么发展出来的？

How is this developed?

它对我有什么好处？

How is this serving me?

它可能对我有什么坏处？

How might this be working against me?

然后你就可以改变了。

And now you can change.

现在你能改变它了，而以前你做不到。

Now you can change that when before you couldn't change it.

是的，改变是慢慢发生的。

Now, yes, change happens slowly.

它很慢很慢很慢，但然后它会突然变快。

It's slow slow slow slow, but then it happens fast.

所以你要在自己身上做很多功课，才能到达那个改变能发生的点，我觉得这是真的。

So you do a lot of work on yourself to get to that point where the change can happen, which I think is true.

再说一次，这些是人类的，也许也是存在的原则。

Again, these are human and maybe these are principles of existence.

身体健康也是一样。

Same with physical health.

这个人一直锻炼，但你不会立刻看到线性的变化。

This person works out and works out, and you don't immediately notice linear change.

所以你必须相信，你正在做的努力会带你到达那里。

So you have to have faith that the work you're doing is gonna get you there.

结果还真就变了，这就是我们内心那些大事的运作方式。

And lo and behold, it does, and that's how these really big things inside of us.

我对自己说了什么？

What am I saying to myself?

我内心有没有一个持续不断的独白？

Is there a running narrative inside of myself?

是不是有别人的声音在我脑子里？

Is someone else's voice inside of me?

这些事发生在我们身上，但神奇的是，我们往往根本意识不到。

These happen to us, and it's amazing that we often just don't know it.

那在这种情况下，我们不是更可能选择短期的安慰吗？

Then isn't it more likely that we're going to choose the short term soothing in the light of that?

然后当然，就想找点安慰，不管是薯片、毒品还是别的什么。

Then, of course, like, just get some soothing on board whether it's Pringles or it's a drug or it's whatever it may be.

我们更可能选择短期的安慰，因为我们害怕、失控，还在自责。

We're more likely to choose short term soothing because we're afraid and we're out of control and we're berating ourselves.

这感觉就像，哇。

It's like, woah.

哇。

Woah.

让我们给这个局面带来一些平静和理解，然后事情就会变得更好，即使你必须努力让事情变得更好。

Let's just bring some peace and understanding to this equation and then things will change for the better even if you have to change things for the better.

做出改变。

Make change.

对。

Yeah.

我给你讲个今天发生的趣事。

I'll tell you a funny story that happened today.

这种事情每天都在发生。

These things occur on a daily basis.

所以我每天都会收到这样的提醒，这让我很惊讶。

So I get a daily reminder of this and it amazes me.

今天刮胡子的时候，我去拿一瓶新的须后水。

So I was shaving today and then I went to grab a brand new bottle of aftershave.

就是那瓶妮维雅的大玻璃瓶须后水。

So this NIVEA big glass bottle of aftershave.

我用了二十五年的同款。

Same thing I've been using for twenty five years.

保罗，这是第一次发生这种事。

And this is the first time this has ever happened, Paul.

我去拿瓶子，打开后往手里倒的时候，可能因为今天太冷了，不太好倒出来，结果瓶子不知怎么掉到了地上，是玻璃瓶，摔碎了。

I went to grab the bottle and I opened it and as I was dumping it in my hand, maybe because it's so cold today, was harder to get out and somehow the bottle dropped and it landed on the floor and it's a glass bottle and it shattered.

所以现在地上全是玻璃渣和须后水。

So now you've got glass and aftershave on the floor.

在这种时候，我现在总是会注意，因为身边没人可以说话。

And in moments like that, I'm always now paying attention to cause there's no one around for me to talk to.

我不会大声喊出来或者什么的。

I'm not gonna, like, yell out loud or anything.

我当时唯一的想法就是，哦，小心别踩到玻璃。

And the only thought I had was, oh, let's make sure you don't step on the glass.

那边好像没有玻璃。

Looks like there's no glass over there.

那就往那边走吧。

So let's just walk over there.

你还有别的瓶子吗？

Do you have another bottle?

因为你肯定不想弯腰去擦地上的那些东西，里面可能还有玻璃渣。

Because you're not gonna wanna reach down on the floor and mop some of that up because there's probably glass in it.

好的。

Okay.

找到了另一瓶，继续吧。

Found another bottle, away we go.

过了一分钟我回想起来，哇，五年前这对话可就完全不一样了。

And I remember thinking a minute later, wow, what a different conversation that would have been five years ago.

我是说，那要是搁以前，我肯定会在心里骂自己三分钟，骂自己是个没用的、不专心的废物。

I mean, that would have been a three minute internal lashing of you incompetent non attentive piece of shit.

你怎么可能把那个东西掉地上呢？

What how could you possibly drop that?

但话说回来，我真正看重的，是能开始留意到那个声音，并且去听它。

But again, the thing that I gravitate towards is the ability to start paying attention, to just listen to that voice.

而且，我之前也经常提到一个练习，那是凯蒂和PCS的另一个治疗师建议我做的，就是录音。

And again, I've talked a lot about the exercise that I used to do that which was suggested by Katie and by another therapist at PCS which was the recording.

如果有谁还没听过这个故事，我觉得值得再讲一遍，哪怕只有一个人没听过。就是在我离开PCS的时候，他们让我每次犯错或者没达到某个标准的时候，就拿出手机，大声地、像跟最好的朋友说话那样，录下自己会怎么说。

For anyone who has not heard that, I think it is worth even if one person listening to this has not heard this story, I think it's worth repeating, which is I was instructed as I was leaving PCS to take my phone out every time I made a mistake or fell short by whatever metric and to speak out loud audibly and record the way I would speak to my best friend if he had made the same mistake.

所以，如果我最好的朋友刚把须后水瓶子摔了，我不会冲他大喊大叫，骂他是个废物。

So if my best friend had just dropped the aftershave, I wouldn't yell at him and call him a piece of shit.

我会说，你没事吧？

I would say, are you okay?

那儿有碎玻璃，小心别踩到了。

Those are really small pieces of glass there, let's not step on them.

虽然现在做这件事很容易，但当时录那些录音花了好几个月。

And while that now is a very easy thing to do, it took months of recording those.

信不信由你，我现在还留着一些这样的录音，每次都会转发给凯蒂。

I still have a number of these recordings, believe it or not, which I would then forward to Katie each time.

有趣的是，刚开始的时候它们听起来很勉强，因为我得学一门新语言。

It's amusing to note how strained they were at the beginning as I had to learn a new language.

那个，嗯，希望你没事。

The Well, you know, hope you're okay.

没事的。

It's okay.

现在当然很自然了。

Now, of course, it's very natural.

所以我再强调一下，那是对我有效的技巧，非常强大。

So again, I highlight that to say that was a technique that worked for me, incredibly powerful.

但最重要的是，我觉得那个故事的核心在于人是可以改变的。

But most of all, I think the moral of that story is malleable.

当初有人建议我做这个练习时，我之所以去做，是因为我已经跌到了谷底。

When this exercise was suggested to me, I did it because I was at rock bottom.

当你处于谷底时，你其实没什么谈判的筹码。

And when you're in rock bottom, you don't really have a lot of negotiating power.

你不能说这主意很蠢，因为那就像是在问，那你现在的方法效果怎么样？

You can't say, that's a dumb idea because it's sort of like, well, how's the current one working out for you?

我其实没指望这能有用。

I don't think I actually expected it to work.

我当时想，如果这真的能起作用，那也得花上四十年，因为我们得改写那么多东西。

And I thought if this is ever gonna work, it's gonna take forty more years because that's how much we're overwriting.

你觉得为什么这么快就见效了？我是说，我没夸张，保罗。

Why do you think it took I mean, I'm not exaggerating, Paul.

大概三个月就彻底改变了。

It took about three months to totally change.

怎么可能这么快就发生呢？

How could it have happened so fast?

我觉得三个月就能彻底改变，但那是三个月持续努力的结果。

I think three months to totally change, but that's three months of work.

这就像物质分布不均匀一样，变化也不是线性发生的。

It's that same theory that matter is not evenly distributed, change does not happen in a linear way.

没错，虽然只有三个月，但你是在逆着多年形成的神经传导模式而行，那些模式已经存在很久很久了。

Okay, it's only three months, but you had to run counter current to patterns of neurotransmission that were inside of you for years and years and years and years.

而且我认为现代心理健康领域还有一个问题，就是它被包装成符合保险公司的标准，但这并没有真正帮助到那些需要帮助的人。

And this is another, I think, problem with modern mental health is it's packaged to suit insurance paradigms and that's not serving the people it's supposed to serve.

所以，不管发生了什么，保险公司只批准十次治疗，要求你在短时间内看到进展。

So the idea that whatever has gone on, you know, there's 10 sessions of therapy authorized, progress has to be gained in a short period of time.

他们只是列一下症状清单，然后给你开药，让症状稍微好转，却从不探究背后的根本原因。

Let's take an inventory of symptoms, and let's throw a medicine at you so now your symptom is a little bit better without ever knowing what's undergirding it.

有些事情是需要时间的。

There are things that take time.

当我们建立了神经传导模式，改变它们也需要时间。

And when we establish patterns of neurotransmission, it takes time to them.

我常举的例子是，如果你我随便挑一个词，说上一千遍，今天晚些时候我们还会在说它。

The example I often give is if you and I picked a random word and we said it a thousand times, we're gonna be saying it later today.

如果我们说五千遍，明天和周末我们都会在说它。

If we say it 5,000 times, we're each gonna be saying it tomorrow and over the weekend.

为什么？

Why?

如果我们知道这只是个无聊的实验，为什么它还会留在我们脑子里？

If we know that it's just a silly experiment, why would it stay with us?

因为我们说了它，大脑的机制就是会抓住它不放，因为我们说了很多遍。

Because we said it, and the brain's mechanisms are designed to hold on to it because we said it a lot of times.

就是这么回事。

That's how it goes.

当然，我们想的事情也是一样的。

The same is true, of course, with what we're thinking.

对吧？

Right?

我们只是在想那些我们认为自己说出来的话。

We're just thinking what we think we put into words.

其实是一样的。

It's the same.

这些想法就是神经元连接，它们不想消失，因为这就是我们进化的方式。

It's thought it's neuronal connections that don't want to go away because this is how we've developed.

我们进化成了会记住事情的样子。

We've developed to remember things.

我们进化成了不会忘记重要事情的样子。

We've developed to not forget things that are important.

所以大脑会说，你说了那个词两千遍，我不会因为你说了就把它忘掉。

So the brain says, you said that word 2,000 times, I'm not just gonna forget it because you said it.

这是进化机制。

It's the evolutionary mechanisms.

所以这在你身上已经存在了很长很长时间了。

So that's been in you for a long long long long time.

当你开始试着说些好话的时候，你告诉我这是不是真的，你心里肯定会有一种恐惧，觉得一切都要崩塌了。

And when you start trying to say something nice, tell me if it's true, there's gotta be a fear in you, that like everything is gonna fall apart.

就像你正在做一件特别大胆、不计后果的事情，对吧，就是

Like here you're doing this wild reckless thing, right, that

你正在做的那件事，会磨掉你的锐气。

you're Which is gonna take your edge away.

对。

Right.

因为鲍比·奈特那种方式能带来好成绩。

Because the Bobby Knight produces great results.

对。

Right.

接下来，你就会变得懒散、邋遢，你也不会再在乎

Next thing you know, you're gonna be lazy and slovenly and not You're not gonna care

你犯的那些错误了。

when you make mistakes.

是的。

Yeah.

但想想看，这有多离谱。

But think about in one hand, how like outrageous that is.

就像你可能会离那种状态十万八千里。

Like the thought that you could possibly be like a million miles from that.

但对你大脑里那个不想阻止它的情感部分来说，这并不离谱。

But it's not outrageous to the emotional part of your brain that didn't wanna stop it.

所以阻止它需要勇气。

So it takes bravery to stop it.

你得冒险，而那个说“你会崩溃”的部分，你现在觉得自己像个废物，等你停止做这件事再说吧。

You have to take a chance, and that part of you that says, you're gonna fall apart, and you think you feel like a piece of shit now, wait till you stop doing this.

你必须说，不。

You have to say, no.

我听到了那个声音，但我要做点不一样的。

I hear the meat and I'm doing something different.

这是对自己的一种信念飞跃，也是对我对自己思考和了解的一种信任，然后你就能去做，开始逆着那些神经连接而行，然后它就会改变。

It's a leap of faith in myself, and in what I've thought about and learned about myself, then you can go and do it and you start running counter to those neuronal connections and then it changes.

但这需要时间，需要努力，需要勇气，需要对自己的信心。

But it takes time, it takes effort, it takes bravery, it takes faith in self.

所以当你说，好吧，只花了两个月，但你真的非常非常努力。

So when you say, okay, only took two months but you worked really really really hard

其实可能差不多四个月。

was actually probably four.

那就说三个月吧。

So Call it three

到四个月。

to four.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

三到四个月。

Three to four.

好的。

Okay.

所以差不多就是一百天左右，真的在跟那些旧模式对抗，然后建立新的模式。

So then we're talking about like a hundred days or so, like, really really running against those patterns and making new patterns.

然后感觉就不一样了。作为认识你超过四分之一世纪、又爱你的人，而且我本身是精神科医生，你拿着那个瓶子出来的时候我也在场，我注意到你说‘哦，我以前没这么做过，我把这个瓶子摔了’，这让我很触动。

And then it feels different and, like, as someone who has known you for over a quarter century and loves you, and also was trained as a psychiatrist and was here when you came out with the remains of the bottle, it was not lost on me that you're like, oh, I hadn't done it before and I dropped this bottle.

而且你身上没有那种棱角了，我也注意到，哇，以前可不是这样的。

And like you there was no edge in you and it was not lost on me that, wow, that's not how that would have been before.

然后我觉得，对，你更快乐了，更健康了。

And then I think, right, you're happier, you're healthier.

如果从健康寿命和寿命的角度来看，从我自己的专业背景，也就是心理健康的角度，作为精神科医生，我觉得这跟大脑的活跃功能、我们内在的情绪状态有关。

If we think about healthspan and lifespan, coming from the place that I come from, right, from the mental health side of things, and the really is a psychiatrist, I think it's active brain function, you know, emotional states within us.

这就是我理解健康寿命和寿命的方式。

This is how I come at healthspan and lifespan.