建立与改变习惯 | 詹姆斯·克利尔（第183期重播）

但在那之前，争论是：我们只要告诉车手开慢点就行。

But the debate prior to that was, look, we'll just tell the drivers to drive slower.

他们没必要开这么快。

They don't have to drive this fast.

他们可以选择开慢10%，这显然是荒谬的。

They can choose to drive 10% slower, which of course was nonsense.

当时FIA的负责人——最近刚去世——指出，这是你能说出的最愚蠢的话。

The head of the FIA at the time, who has just recently passed away, made a point which was that that's the dumbest thing you could ever say.

他们都会选择一辆更不安全但更快的车。

They will all choose to have a less safe car if it goes faster.

因为你谈论的是全球最顶尖的20位车手。

Because you're talking about the 20 most competitive drivers on the planet.

我还想提另一个观点：对我们大多数人来说，我们永远无法体会成为任何领域世界前一千名的感觉。

Now there was another point I was gonna make that was, for most of us, we will never know what it's like to be the top thousand in the world of anything.

当我想到我所热爱的一切——开赛车、射箭、锻炼——我甚至远远低于这些领域中最差的职业选手。

If I think about all the things that I love, driving a race car, shooting my bow and arrow, know, exercising, I mean, I'm multiple orders of magnitude beneath even the most lowly ranked professional of those things.

这引出了另一个对我来说至关重要的观点：快乐不在于与他人进行绝对的比较，而在于与自己过去的对比。

And this gets into something else which is for me at least, the joy is not in the absolute comparison of myself to others, but the relative comparison of where I was before.

你觉得这是普遍现象吗？

Do you think that's a universal thing?

人们是否普遍更关注自己相对于过去的表现取得了多少进步？

Is it universal that people are mostly engaged by how much they are making progress relative to their own performance?

还是说，有些人只在与他人进行绝对比较时才能感受到快乐？

Or do you think that there are some people who are only capable of finding pleasure when being compared to others in an absolute basis?

关于你问题的后半部分，我不太确定。

The second half of that question, I'm not sure of.

一般来说，我认为这两种情况都是普遍存在的。

Generally, I think both of those things are universal.

我认为，对人类心理而言，最能激发动力的感觉之一就是进步的感觉。

I think one it's universal that one of the most motivating feelings to the human mind is the feeling of progress.

而且我认为，进步带来的愉悦感是相当普遍的，从最基础的层面来说，我们都是目标导向的生物，我们的目标是获取食物、水、繁衍后代或确保安全。

And I think it's fairly universal that progress feels good in a sense that the most base level we are goal directed organisms in the sense that we have a goal to get food or water or to procreate or to be safe.

我们希望朝着这些目标前进，尽可能缩小目标与当前状态之间的差距和张力。

And we want to move toward those things and resolve the tension, the gap between that goal and our current state as much as possible.

如今，凭借我们复杂的头脑和现代社会，我们设定了许多超出基本需求（如食物和水）之外的其他目标。

Now with our complex brains and modern society, we come up with many other goals that are outside of just our basic needs, like food and water.

我们会有诸如升职、减掉十磅之类的目標，但那种你当前状态与理想状态之间的张力依然存在。

We have goals like getting a promotion at work or losing 10 pounds or whatever it is, but that same tension between where you are currently and where you want to be.

我们希望这种张力得到解决。

We want to have that resolved.

你感觉自己在朝着这些目标之一取得的进展越多，

The more progress that you feel like you're making toward one of those things.

我认为这通常会让人感觉良好。

I think that generally feels good.

我觉得这相当普遍。

I feel like that's pretty universal.

我也认为，我们似乎普遍带有一种对地位、声望、等级和层级的倾向。

I also do think it seems to be fairly universal that we have some bias towards status, some bias toward prestige and rank and hierarchy.

对大多数人来说，赢得比赛、获得最高分或登上排行榜都会让人感觉良好。

It feels good for pretty much anybody to win the game or to have the best score on the scoreboard or to climb the leaderboard.

当你发现自己相对于周围人处于更高的位置时，无论是在财富、金钱还是名声方面，这种感觉也会更好。

And the more that you see yourself occupying a higher rung relative to those around you, whether it's with wealth or money or fame, the better that feels too.

这可能是一个连续谱，或者每一个都是一个连续谱。

It probably is a spectrum or maybe each of those is a spectrum.

有些人把地位这一栏调得非常高，而内在指标则调得较低；另一些人则正好相反。

And some people have the dial turned up real high on the status part and maybe lower on the internal measures and other people have it the reverse.

但我普遍认为，我们所有人都在某种程度上具备这两种倾向，如果你在其中任一指标上取得成功，很可能会感到开心。

But I generally think we all have them to some degree and you probably will find yourself feeling good if you happen to succeed on either of those metrics.

你认为这其中有多少是关于过程，有多少是关于目标呢？

And how much of it do you think is, for lack of a better term, journey versus destination focus?

因为以你提到的减重为例，这通常是一个非常以目标为导向的指标。

Because if you talk about your example of weight loss, is generally a very destination based metric.

我想减掉十磅，不减到十磅就不会开心。

I wanna lose 10 pounds, not gonna be happy until I lose 10 pounds.

我处理这件事的过程——改变我的饮食方式、调整锻炼习惯，接受你不可能线性地减掉10磅的事实，实际情况会是这样。

The process of how I go about doing it, changing the way I'm eating, changing my exercise, accepting the fact that you're not gonna lose 10 pounds linearly, it's gonna look like this.

这些细节我都能接受，但我就是想减掉这10磅，或者想重新穿上我以前穿得下的那件衣服。

Those are details that I'm willing to tolerate, but I wanna lose those 10 pounds or I wanna fit into this piece of clothing that I used to fit into.

与此相反的是，我想学会说意大利语。

Contrast that with, I wanna learn to speak Italian.

我享受每天学习几个新单词的过程，也享受理解这种语法结构与我的母语之间关系的过程。

I'm enjoying this process of learning a few new words every day and learning how the structure of this grammar works relative to my native tongue.

我可能永远无法完全流利地说意大利语，但我知道总有一天我会达到完全实用的水平。

And I'm never gonna be perfectly fluent in Italian, but I know that in some point I'm gonna be completely functional.

学习这门新语言或学习如何演奏这件乐器的过程，才是带给我快乐的原因。

This journey of learning this new language or learning how to play this instrument, that's what's giving me the pleasure.

我不确定这种区别是否说得通。

And I don't know if that distinction makes sense.

首先，我得说，我这一生大部分时间都特别注重目标导向。

First, I should say this is coming from someone who's been very goal oriented for most of their life.

我曾经为自己设定过目标：在学校里想要取得的成绩、在健身房里想要举起的重量、以及生意上想要达到的数字。

I would set goals for the grades I wanted to get in school for the weight I wanted to lift in the gym for the numbers I wanted my business to hit.

后来我偶然找到了一张我在大学二年级时写的纸，上面列出了我希望在毕业前达成的目标。

And at some point I actually found this sheet that I made my sophomore year of college for the goals that I wanted to hit by the time I graduated.

时隔十一年回头看，这挺搞笑的，因为大约一半的目标我实现了，另一半则没有。

It was funny looking back on it like ten or eleven years later, because about half of them, hit the other half.

没实现。

Didn't.

我当时就想，显然，设定目标本身并不是产生差异的关键。

And I was like, obviously setting the goal was not the thing that made the difference.

如果它是关键，那我应该能实现所有目标。

If it did, I would have hit them all.

所以这里一定还有别的原因。

So something else is going on here.

这就像给我自己上了一堂补习课，让我意识到，目标并不是驱动结果的主要因素。

It was like a little remedial training session for myself or something, realizing that goals are not the primary thing that drives results.

事实上，如果你观察大多数领域的表现，赢家和输家的目标是一样的。

And in fact, if you look at the performance in most domains, the winners and the losers have the same goal.

假设每一位一级方程式赛车手在从起跑线出发时，目标都是赢得比赛。

Presumably every formula one driver has the goal of winning the race when they take off from the starting line.

如果你有一个职位空缺，有一百名候选人申请，那么 presumably 每位候选人的目标都是获得这份工作。

If you have a job opening and a 100 candidates apply for the job, presumably every candidate has the goal of getting the job.

目标并不是影响表现差异的关键因素。

The goal is not the thing that makes the difference in the performance.

既然赢家和输家的目标相同，那它就不可能是决定性因素。

And if the winners and the losers have the same goal, it cannot be the distinguishing factor.

也许它是必要的。

Maybe it's necessary.

或许有人会说，目标对成功是必要的，但它并不足以保证成功。

Perhaps there's an argument necessary for success, but it's not sufficient for it.

这让我开始思考：那么，究竟是什么在驱动结果呢？

So that got me thinking more like, well, what is it then that drives it?

在我的书里，我描述的区别在于系统和目标之间：你的目标是你想要的结果、你的目标、你追求的东西；而你的系统则是你每天遵循的习惯集合。

And I, in the book, the way that I described is the difference between systems and goals, your goals, your desired outcome, your target, the thing you're shooting for your system is the collection of daily habits that you follow.

这些是整个机器中的所有小齿轮。

All these little gears in this overall machine.

如果你的目标和日常习惯之间存在差距，如果你的目标和系统之间存在差距，那么你的日常习惯几乎在定义上总会胜出。

And if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, if there's ever a gap between your goal and your system, your daily habits will always win almost by definition.

你当前的习惯正是为你的当前结果量身打造的。

Your current habits are perfectly designed for your current results.

所以，无论你过去六个月、一年或更长时间里一直在执行什么样的系统，你提到过射箭，想必你那些动作体系——比如射击前的准备、如何拉弓等等——

So whatever system you've been running for the last six months or year or whatever, you talked about shooting a bow and arrow, presumably whatever system of movements you have going on there, pre shot routine, how you draw it back, everything.

都不可避免地把你导向箭最终落点的结果。

It kind of is inevitably carrying you toward the result of where the arrow ends up.

这一切的讽刺之处在于，我们也非常渴望在生活中获得更好的结果。

The irony of all of this is we also badly want better results in life.

我们知道，我们也非常想要赚更多钱、减轻压力、减掉体重等等，但真正需要改变的并不是这些结果本身。

You know, we also badly want to make more money or to reduce stress or lose weight or whatever, but the results are not actually the thing that needs to change.

这就像改善输入，输出自然就会改善。

It's kind of like fix the inputs and the outputs will fix themselves.

有些领域，比如射箭，这种联系非常明显，但其他一些领域，不知为何我们没那么清楚地看到这一点，但我认为模式依然存在，那就是让我们调整习惯。

There are some areas like shooting a bow where that is the connection is quite obvious, but there are other areas where for whatever reason we don't see it as clearly, but I think the pattern is still there, which is let's adjust the habits.

让我们让这台机器运行得更加顺畅。

Let's get this machine running in a more fluid fashion.

你会发现，结果会自然而然地出现。

And you'll find that the results kind of come naturally.

我认为，仅仅意识到这一点就帮助我稍微重塑了思维方式。

I think just appreciating that helped rewire mindset a little bit.

我曾经长期专注于结果和目标，而现在我意识到，真正驱动这一切的是系统，这让我转变了观念：现在我认为，目标是那些只在乎一次性胜利的人所关注的。

I was so focused on outcomes and goals for a long time, and now realizing that actually the way this is driven is with the system that helped me shift from what I would say now is like goals are for people who care about winning one time.

你设定一个目标，比如跑半程马拉松，训练三个月，完成比赛，但之后可能就不再训练了。

You set a goal to run a half marathon and you train for three months and you do it and you complete the race, but then maybe you stop training after that.

但系统是那些在乎不断获胜的人所依赖的。

But systems are for people who care about winning again and again.

如果你在乎持续的成功，那你就会觉得自己是个跑步者。

And if you care about sustaining that success, then you're like, I'm a runner.

我关心的是我建立的系统——我如何训练、每周跑多少英里，以及其他各种事情。

I care about the system that I'm building for how I train, how many miles I'm getting in all kinds of other stuff.

无论三个月后有没有半程马拉松，这其实并不重要，因为我无论如何都会坚持我的系统。

And whether I have a half marathon three months in the distance or not, it doesn't really matter because I'm going to be running my system either way.

做出这种心理转变，有助于持续取得成果。

Making that mental shift, think can be useful for sustaining results.

那么我们现在来谈谈习惯吧，因为正如你所说，习惯基本上决定了我们会做什么。

So let's talk about habits now, because I think that's the thing that as you said, basically shapes the nature of what we're going to do.

有句名言很多人都说过，我甚至不想试着改写它，因为现在我想不起来了，但大意是：你不会提升到你训练的水平，而是会跌落到你训练的水平？

There's a saying that many people have said and I won't even try to paraphrase it because at the moment it's escaping me, but the gist of it is like, you don't rise to level of your training, you fall to the level, or you fall to level of your training and?

原话我认为是来自阿尔凯俄斯。

The original quote, I think it's from Arcalocus.

我相信他是位希腊哲学家，说过：你不会提升到你的期望水平。

I believe a Greek philosopher and said, you don't rise to the level of your expectations.

你会跌落到你训练的水平。

You fall to level of your training.

在《原子习惯》中，我对这句话进行了调整，改为：你不会达到目标的高度。

And in atomic habits, I tweaked that or adjusted that to say, you don't rise to the level of your goals.

你会跌落到你系统的水平。

You fall to the level of your systems.

因此，真正创造这种基础的是你的习惯。

And so it's actually your habits that kind of create that baseline.

为什么叫原子习惯？

Why is it called atomic habits?

我记得第一次看到这个书名时，我的理解是‘原子’意味着巨大的爆炸，像是很大的习惯，而这恰恰与它的本意相反。

I remember when I first saw the title, my assumption was atomic must be huge explosion, like big habits, which of course is exactly not what it means.

当人们看到这个词时，会从中解读出不同的含义，这很有趣。

It's interesting which meanings people pull out when they see it.

我选择‘原子习惯’这个说法有三个原因。

So I chose the phrase atomic habits for three reasons.

“原子”这个词的第一个含义是微小的，就像原子一样。

The first meaning of the word atomic is tiny or small like an atom.

我认为习惯应该很小，而且相对容易执行，尤其是在刚开始的时候。

And I do think habits should be small and fairly easy to do, especially in the beginning.

“原子”这个词的第二个含义是更大系统中的基本单位。

The second meaning of the word atomic is the fundamental unit in the larger system.

而这一点常常被人忽视。

And that's the one that people often overlook.

原子构成分子，分子构成化合物，以此类推。

Adam is built into molecules, molecules built into compounds and so on.

你的习惯也是如此。

And your habits are kind of like that.

每一个小习惯都像是你日常整体流程中的一个原子。

Each little habit is like a Adam in the overall routine of your day.

把它们全部结合起来，你就形成了自己的生活方式或日常惯例。

You put them all together and you end up with your lifestyle or your daily routine.

而第三个也是最后一个含义是你提到的，即巨大能量或力量的来源。

And then the third and final meaning is the one that you mentioned, the source of immense energy or power.

我认为，如果你把这三个含义结合起来，就能大致理解这本书的叙事脉络：做出那些小而容易执行的改变。

I think if you put all three meanings together, you sort of understand the narrative arc of the book, which is make changes that are small and easy to do.

将它们层层叠加，就像更大系统中的单元或分子中的原子一样，你就能获得非常强大或显著的成果。

Layer them on top of each other, like units in a larger system or atoms in a molecule collectively, you can get some really powerful or remarkable results.

因此，我觉得“原子习惯”这个短语不仅概括了你想要建立的系统中的微小改变，也涵盖了由此产生的强大成果。

And so I feel like the phrase atomic habits not only encapsulates that kind of small change in the system that you're looking to build, but also the powerful results that can emanate from that.

你谈到了三种不同类型的变化：结果变化、过程变化。

So you talk about three different types of change, Outcome change, the process change.

我们已经稍微涉及了前两种，但还没有深入讨论身份变化。

We've touched on a little bit of those, but the one we haven't really touched on is this identity change.

当我读你的书时，这一点让我深有共鸣，因为它很好地解释了为什么锻炼对我来说是自然而然的——因为它已经深深融入了我的身份；而为什么我过去尝试建立的某些习惯始终难以养成，因为我还没有真正认同它们。

That was something that when I read your book really resonated because it provided I think a very decent explanation at least for why exercise comes naturally to me, which is it's so hardwired into my identity and why maybe certain other habits I've tried to create over time don't come easily to me because I haven't fully identified with them yet.

请详细谈谈这一点，以及你是如何意识到这一点的。

So expand on that, but also how you came to realize that.

在更深入地展开这个观点之前，我想先说两点。

Two things before I unpack the idea a little more fully.

第一，这本书中的所有观点里。

First is, of all the ideas in the book.

这个可能是最缺乏科学依据的。

This is probably the least scientific.

实际上有一些研究，我在那一章中引用了，这并不是说完全没有科学基础，但整本书的大部分内容，我都力求以严谨的方式思考如何培养习惯以及什么真正阻碍了习惯的形成。

There are actually some studies, which I cite in that chapter, and it's not like there's no science behind it, but the majority of the book, I try to be very robust in the way that I was thinking about how do we build habits and what actually gets in the stick.

此外，还有大量社会心理学和认知心理学的研究支持了我所提到的许多例子，但这个观点更像是一种心态，或者说是一种关于行为改变如何运作的哲学。

And there also are just a bazillion social psychology and cognitive psychology studies that illustrate a lot of the examples that I talk about, but this is more of a mindset I would say, or a philosophy on how behaviour change works.

第二点是，这可能是我唯一一个独特的观点，我分享的其他几乎所有内容都是其他人广泛讨论过的，或者是我们已经知道数百甚至数千年的东西。

Second thing is it's maybe the only unique idea that I have pretty much everything else that I share is stuff that's been widely covered by other people or, you know, things that we've known for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

但我感觉，这个观点或许是我可以为这场对话做出的贡献。

But I felt like this was something that maybe I could contribute to the conversation.

我开始思考这个问题的部分原因是，我开始问自己：为什么习惯真的如此重要？

Part of the reason I started thinking about it is I started asking why do habits really matter?

我们社会似乎非常重视习惯。

We seem to care about them a lot as a society.

很多书都以此为主题，我们也经常谈论它。

It's something a lot of books get written about something we talk about a lot.

它们显然有着某种更深层的重要性。

There's clearly some kind of deeper importance to them.

那么，这究竟是为什么呢？

So what is it?

表面的答案是，我们重视习惯，是因为它们能帮我们获得外部的成果，比如提高效率、更健康等等，习惯确实能助你做到这些，这很好。

The surface level answer is that we care about habits because they get us these external things that make us more productive and more fit and so on habits can help you do all of that stuff, which is great.

但我认为，习惯真正重要、更深层的原因在于，它们是我们内心对自己是谁、在乎什么的一种信号。

But I think the real reason, the deeper reason that habits matter is that they are a signal internally to ourselves about who we are and what we care about.

它们某种程度上代表了我们讲给自己听的故事。

And they're kind of a signal of like the story that we're telling ourselves.

因此，从某种意义上说，每次你执行一个习惯，你都在体现某种特定的身份。

So in a sense, every time that you perform a habit, you are embodying a particular identity.

当你整理床铺时，你就是在体现一个整洁有序的人的身份。

When you make your bed, you embody the identity of someone who's clean and organized.

当你花三十分钟打篮球时，你就是在体现一个篮球运动员的身份。

When you shoot a basketball for thirty minutes, you embody the identity of someone who is a basketball player.

你也许只做一两次这些事。

You do those things once or twice.

这并不会彻底改变你对自己故事的认知。

It doesn't radically transform the story you have about yourself.

但如果你持续每天打篮球，坚持六个月或两年，某个时刻你会跨越一个无形的门槛，心想：是的，成为一个篮球运动员已经是我身份的一部分。

But if you keep showing up and shooting a basketball every day for six months or two years, or at some point you cross this sort of invisible threshold where you're like, yeah, being a basketball player is like part of who I am, some aspect of my identity.

因此，你的习惯提供了证据。

And so your habits provide evidence.

它们证明了你对自己所讲述的故事。

They provide proof of the story that you're telling yourself.

我认为这是一种非常强大、非常深层的个人体验，正是习惯所能提供的，或许也是它们真正重要的原因。

And that I think is a very powerful thing, a very deep personal thing that habits can provide and perhaps the real reason why they matter.

所以回到你关于过程、结果与身份认同的问题，也就是我们如何改变的问题。

So to come back to your question about process versus outcome versus identity, where, how we change.

通常当人们着手进行某种改变时，他们首先会考虑自己想要的结果或成果。

Usually when people set out to make some kind of change, they start by thinking about the results or the outcome that they want.

比如他们会说：我想在接下来六个月内减掉40磅。

So they say, I want to lose 40 pounds in the next six months.

然后根据这个结果，再制定过程或计划。

And then from that outcome, back into a process or a plan.

所以他们说，好吧，如果我想减掉40磅，那我就需要遵循这个营养计划。

So they say, all right, if I want to lose 40 pounds, then I need to follow this nutrition plan.

我需要每周锻炼四天。

I'm going need to work out four days a week.

也许这些计划还有各种细节等等，但通常思考就大致停在这里了。

And maybe there are details to those plans and everything, but that's usually kind of roughly where it stops.

然后假设就是，如果我做了这些事情并且成功减重，那我就会成为我想成为的那种人。

And then the assumption is if I do those things and I lose that weight, then I'll be the kind of person that I want to be.

我在那一章中试图剖析的观点是，如果我们从这个角度反向思考会怎样？

The argument that I try to unpack in that chapter is what if we worked backwards from this?

如果我们反过来问：我想成为什么样的人？

What if instead we said, who is the type of person I wish to be?

我希望拥有怎样的身份？

What is identity that I'd like to have?

事实上，我们甚至可以去问问那些已经拥有这种身份的人。

And in fact, we could even ask the person who has that identity.

他们会有什么样的习惯？

What kind of habits would they have?

然后我们用这种身份来指导过程和习惯，让结果自然产生。

And then we use that identity to inform the process, the habits, and we let the outcomes come naturally.

这类例子有很多。

There are a variety of examples of this.

我的一位读者，她减掉了很多体重。

I, one reader of mine, she lost a bunch of weight.

我认为她总共减了110磅，而且这体重已经保持了十多年。

I think it was 110 pounds in total, and she's kept it off for over a decade.

在她开始减肥旅程时，她一直带着一个问题：一个健康的人会怎么做？

And the question that she sort of carried around her as she was starting her weight loss journey is what would a healthy person do?

这与身份认同的那部分非常契合。

And that's very much aligned or oriented with that identity piece.

就好比，一个健康的人会打车吗？

It's like, okay, would a healthy person take a cab?

还是会走四个街区去下一场会议？

Or would they walk four blocks the next meeting?

午餐时会点沙拉和鸡胸肉吗？

Would they order a salad and chicken at lunch?

还是会点汉堡和薯条？

Or would they have a hamburger and fries?

她可以带着这个问题，面对每一个情境都做出选择，让自己的决定与她想拥有的身份保持一致，而不是一味担心具体的数字，比如摄入的宏量营养素之类的。

And she could just kind of carry that question around with her to every context she was in and make a choice that she felt like aligned with the identity that she wanted to have, rather than worrying necessarily about something specific, like the number of macros she's getting or, you know, whatever.

现在我应该说，我觉得这两种方式都行得通。

Now I should say, I think it can work both ways.

比如我会计算我的宏营养素，这对我非常有效，但我觉得这部分是因为它与我已有的身份认同相符。

Like I count my macros and works really well for me, but I think that's partially because it aligns with the identity that I already have.

如果你没有内在故事的转变，行为就很难随之改变。

And if you don't have that shift in internal story, it's hard for the behavior to follow suit.

想象一下，你走向两个人。

Imagine you went up to two people.

你问：嘿，来根香烟吗？

You said, Hey, would you like a cigarette?

第一个人说：哦不用了，谢谢。

And the first person says, Oh no, thanks.

我正在努力戒烟。

I'm trying to quit.

第二个人说：哦不用了，谢谢。

And the second person says, Oh no, thanks.

我不是吸烟者。

I'm not a smoker.

从技术上讲，他们做了同样的事。

Technically they've done the same thing.

两人都拒绝了香烟，但第二个人实际上暗示了一种身份的转变。

They both turned down the cigarette, but the second person kind of has signaled a shift in identity change.

第一个人试图成为自己并不是的人——不，谢谢。

The first person is trying to be something they're not no thanks.

我正在努力戒烟。

I'm trying to quit.

而第二个人说：我不是吸烟者。

And the second person is saying, I'm not a smoker.

这根本就不是我做的事。

It's just not something that I do.

我认为，一旦你达到了这种身份转变的阶段，从行为改变的角度来看，你就处于一个更强大的位置，因为你甚至都不在刻意改变。

I think once you get to that stage, shift in identity, you're in a much more powerful place from a behavior change standpoint, because you're not even really trying to change.

再也不了。

Anymore.

你只是在按照自己认同的那种人的方式行事。

You're just acting in alignment with the type of person you see yourself to be.

我们可以讨论实现这一点的方法，但这就是身份与目标之间差异的简要说明。

So we can talk about ways to do that, but that's kind of the quick version on identity versus outcome.

你能说说你举的例子中的那位女性和你自己在身份认同上的区别吗？

Tell me what you think the difference is in identity between the woman you gave the example of and say yourself.

你们俩的目标是一样的，都是达到健康的体重，但她通过思考‘一个健康的人在这种情况下会怎么做’来实现目标。

So you're both striving to the same objective, which is a healthy weight, but she accomplished it by focusing on what would a healthy person do in this situation.

而你实现目标的方式，至少就目前的饮食而言，大概是说——虽然我不清楚你的宏量营养素目标，但这些是我设定的追求，我会坚持下去。

You accomplish it, again, just pertaining to nutrition at the moment, presumably by saying, don't know what your macro goals are, but these are the aspirations that I have and I'm gonna stick to these.

所以你能说说这两种方法之间的区别吗？除了实际尝试两者之外，一个人该如何判断哪种方法更适合自己？

So tell me a little bit about the difference between those approaches and how can a person know which will be better for them outside of just empirically trying them both?

我认为在这个特定情况下，我与她主要的区别在于，我内心早已有一个信念：我本来就是一个健康的人。

Well, I think in this particular case, the primary differences I had an internal story or have an internal story that I am a healthy person already.

所以，做那些与之相符的事情，比如计算宏量营养素，感觉完全没问题。

And so just doing things that are aligned with that, like counting macros feels totally fine.

而对她来说，在那个早期阶段，她并没有这种感受，也不真正相信自己是这样的人。

Whereas for her at that early stage, she did not feel that way and did not genuinely believe that about herself.

人们有可能突然顿悟，彻底改变，或者像flip a switch一样，立刻开始以不同的方式行事。

It's possible to have an epiphany and to change cold Turkey or to just flip a switch and suddenly start acting in a different way.

我认为这是可能的。

I do think it's possible.

我认为有些人确实会经历这样的时刻。

I think sometimes people have experiences like that.

讽刺的是，我认为这种转变很少是由某种突如其来的内心闪电引起的。

Ironically, I think it rarely happens from some kind of bolts of lightning inside.

我认为最常见的途径之一是读书。

I think one of the most common ways that happens is by reading books.

我认为人们有时会读到一本彻底改变他们世界观的书，然后开始完全以不同的方式行事。

I think people will sometimes read a book that really changes their worldview and they start to do things completely differently.

之后，你可以想象一些营养学方面的例子，比如有人读了一本书，被说服了碳水化合物是魔鬼，谷物非常糟糕。

After that, you can imagine a bunch of nutrition examples, like somebody reads a book that convinces them that carbs are the devil and the grain is terrible.

突然第二天，他们就想把家里所有的面包都扔掉，变化来得非常快。

All of a sudden the next day, like they want to throw out all the bread in the house and it gets very quick.

开关已经 flipped。

Switch has been flipped.

所以我认为这是可能的。

So I do think it's possible.

然而，我不认为通过顿悟来改变是一种可靠的改变方式。

However, I don't think that changing through an epiphany is a very reliable way to change.

我不知道这是否是你可以依赖、规划或策略性期待的事情——你一生中可能只会遇到几次这样的情况。

And I don't know that it's something you can bank on or can plan around or strategize for might happen to you a couple of times in your life.

我认为这不是建立新习惯的高效方式。

I don't think that it's an efficient way to try to build a new habit.

所以，如果你无法通过顿悟来改变，或者不指望通过顿悟来改变，那么你的选择是什么？

So if you can't change or hope to change through an epiphany, then what are your options?

如果你想改变自己的身份。

If you want to change your identity.

我认为最好的途径是用你的行动来投票。

And I think the best avenue that you have is to cast votes with your actions.

从某种意义上说，你做的每一个行动都像是在为你想成为的那种人投票。

So in a sense, every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

不，做一个俯卧撑并不会彻底改变你的身体，但它确实为那种从不错过锻炼的人投了一票；写一句话可能不会完成一部小说，但它确实为‘我是个作家’投了一票。

So no, doing one pushup does not radically transform your body, but it does cast a vote for on the type of person who doesn't miss workouts and no writing one sentence may not finish the novel, but it does cast a vote for I'm a writer.

我认为这与我的方法或我所推荐的，和你常听到的观点之间有着重要的区别。

I think this is like a meaningful difference between my approach or what I recommend and what you often hear.

你常听到的说法像是‘假装直到你成功’。

Like you often hear something like fake it till you make it.

我对‘假装直到你成功’并没有什么意见。

I don't necessarily have anything wrong with fake it till you make it.

它让你相信自己积极的一面，但却是让你在没有证据的情况下相信这些积极的特质。

It's asking you to believe something positive about yourself, but it's asking you to believe something positive without having evidence for it.

我们有一个词来形容那些没有证据的信念。

And we have a word for beliefs that don't have evidence.

我们称之为妄想。

We call that delusion.

在某个时刻，你的大脑会不喜欢你所说的话和你实际行为之间的这种不一致。

Like at some point your brain doesn't like this mismatch between what you're saying and what you're actually doing.

所以回到你关于我那位减掉大量体重的朋友的问题，我认为你必须真正相信关于自己的这个故事，这样你的行为才会开始感到一致。

And so to bring it back to your question about my friend who lost all this weight, I think you have to genuinely believe that story about yourself in order for the actions to start to feel aligned.

如果你根本不相信自己是个健康的人，或者根本不相信自己是那种会追踪宏量营养素的人，那该怎么办呢？

And what do you do if you don't genuinely believe you're a healthy person or don't genuinely believe that I'm the kind of person who would track my macros or whatever.

我认为你必须从这些非常小的习惯开始。

Well, I think you have to start with these very small habits.

你必须以某种微小的方式向自己证明这一点。

You have to start by proving it to yourself in some little way.

也许只是你走了三条街区去参加会议，而没有打车；或者只是你午餐点了沙拉，而不是汉堡和薯条。

Maybe it's just that you did walk the three blocks to the meeting and didn't take the taxi, or maybe it's just that you did order a salad for lunch and not a burger and fries.

这些行为中的每一个单独来看，都不会立刻改变你的身体或甚至改变你的自我认知。

And none of those things individually are going to change your body or even the story right away.

但如果你持续支持这种行为，持续支持这种身份，最终你会达到像篮球例子那样的状态。

But if you keep casting votes for that behavior and keep casting votes for that identity, then eventually you get to the point where it's like the basketball example.

你不得不承认自己是个篮球运动员，因为你过去两年一直在投篮。

You kind of have to admit that you're a basketball player because you've been shooting hoops for the last two years.

而这已经成为你身份的一部分了。

And like, this is just part of who you are now.

所以我认为我们两人之间的主要区别在于，我早就有了这种自我认知，而她最初没有。

So I think that that's the primary difference between the two of us is that I already kind of had that story and early she didn't.

但现在她有了。

Now she does.

所以谁知道呢？

So who knows?

也许现在她追踪宏量营养素会比我更容易，甚至更轻松。

Maybe now she could just track her macros just as easily or even easier than I can.

我不知道。

I don't know.

但我认为那种转变。

But I think that that shift there.

是的。

Yeah.

我有点好奇想问问，因为我想知道这个人在十年后，这个过程会发生怎样的变化。

I was kind of curious to ask about that because I wonder how that process changes in this person after ten years.

我的意思是，大多数人明白减肥其实并不难，但保持体重不反弹却异常困难。

I mean, most people understand that losing weight is actually not that hard, but keeping weight off is exceptionally hard.

所以你朋友所做的，是的，减掉110磅很了不起，但真正了不起的是她已经保持了十年。

So what your friend did, yes losing 110 pounds is remarkable, but the fact that she's kept it off for a decade is actually what's remarkable.

我很好奇事件发生的时间顺序是怎样的——比如，第一年，她每天都在挣扎：健康的人会怎么做？

And I'm curious as to what the temporal sequence of events is where, hey for the first year it was a daily struggle of what would the healthy person do?

健康的人会怎么做？

What would the healthy person do?

健康的人会怎么做？

What would the healthy person do?

在某个时刻，这种想法转变成了‘我是个健康的人’。

And at some point that transitions into I'm a healthy person.

这就是我所做的。

This is what I do.

我是个健康的人。

I'm a healthy person.

这就是我所做的。

This is what I do.

然后这变得如此自动化，以至于你偶尔放纵一天，都会觉得不对劲。

And then it becomes so autonomic that you can slip up for a day and it feels wrong.

天啊，那棉花糖真糟糕。

Like, God, that cotton candy is horrible.

我再也不想吃这个了。

Like I don't ever want to eat that again.

是的。

Yeah.

你刚才几分钟前说过类似的话，说的是有时候不锻炼会让你感到不舒服。

Well, you said something similar to that a few minutes ago about how like it bothers you to not work out sometimes.

尼尔·埃亚尔也写过关于习惯的内容，他有一个小标准来衡量这一点：他觉得判断一个行为是否成为习惯的标准是，当你不做这件事时，你会不会感到困扰？

Nir Eyal who also has written about habits has kind of a little measure for that where he's like, his measure for whether it's a habit or not is, does it bother you when you don't do it?

我认为这是一个信号，说明它已经与你的自我认同一致了。

I think that's a signal that it's kind of aligned with your identity.

就像，哦，如果我不做这件事，我感觉自己不像自己了——这和你提到的需要很长时间才能形成的观点一致，实际上所需时间可能远超你的想象。

It's like, oh, I kind of feel like I'm not being me if I don't do this to your point about it taking a long time, it can take much longer than you would think.

我的朋友告诉我，她减掉了60磅，才第一次有人注意到，之前根本没人提起过。

I mean, my friend told me she had to lose 60 pounds before the first person noticed before she ever heard anything from somebody else.

那是相当多的体重，而且花了很长一段时间，几乎是在一种真空状态下努力，感觉只是为自己而做。

That's a lot of weight and a long time to be working in essentially what feels like a vacuum feels like you're just doing it for yourself.

外界没有任何反馈。

No external feedback from the world.

这又回到了我们之前讨论过的许多内容，比如过程、爱上系统以及其中涉及的诸多因素，但这确实是一段内在的旅程，而且一定会比你想象的要长得多。

So this comes back to a lot of the things we've already talked about, about process and falling in love with the system and a lot of things that go into it, but it definitely is an internal journey and it definitely will take longer than you would imagine.

在很多情况下都是如此。

A lot of cases.

在我的实践中，最常见的、能够持续的顿悟式行为改变例子，就是一个人在孩子出生的那天戒烟。

One of the most common examples that I hear of in my practice for the epiphany behavior change that sticks is the person who quits smoking the day their child is born.

我一直觉得这很有趣，对吧？

And I've always found this interesting, right?

因为就在孩子出生的前一天，他们明明知道吸烟有多糟糕。

Because the day before their child is born, they clearly know how bad smoking is.

没有哪个吸烟的人不了解它的风险。

There's nobody who's smoking who doesn't understand the risks of it.

同样地，正如你之前指出的，他们也清楚吸烟在短期内带来的好处。

And by the same token who doesn't, as you pointed out earlier, enjoy the benefits of it in the short run.

短期内回报很高，但长期来看危害极大。

Very rewarding in the short run, very damaging in the long run.

这在理智上是完全能理解的。

That's completely understood intellectually.

在某一天，他们有了孩子，于是决定：我再也不碰了。

On day x, they have a child and they decide, I'm done with this.

我不会再让烟雾出现在我的家里，因为我同样知道二手烟的危害，我不会让我的孩子接触这种东西。

I'm not gonna have smoke in my household because I also know the benefits of secondhand smoke or the harm rather of secondhand smoke and I'm not gonna expose my child to this.

但令人惊讶的是，我一次又一次地听到患者讲述这样的故事：是的，我小时候父母是重度烟民，但自从我出生那天起，他们就戒烟了，那已经是四十年前的事了，他们从此再也没有抽过一支烟。

And yet amazingly, I mean over and over and over again, I hear these stories from patients saying, Yep, I grew up in a household where my parents were incredible smokers and the second I was born they stopped and that was forty years ago and they've never had a cigarette since.

这里是否存在一种转移机制？因为这涉及另一个人的生命，所以这种改变更容易持久吗？

Is there a transference process here where because it involves the life of another person, it's easier to make this change stick?

有可能。

Possibly.

我的意思是，肯定有很多因素在起作用，但这确实符合一类行为模式：如果你想要彻底改变生活，你得想办法让这种顿悟真正扎根——比如彻底改变环境或生活方式，这都是很好的方法。

I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of variables that go into it, but it does align with, there's like this whole category of behaviors that I feel like if you wanted to hack a radical change in your life, you want to figure out a way to get, like you said, this epiphany to stick massive environment changes or lifestyle changes are a good way to do that.

或许这是最有效的方式之一。

Perhaps one of the strongest ways to do that.

所以，生孩子、结婚、换工作、搬去另一个城市，甚至一些小事，比如养一只狗，都可能引发快速的行为改变。

So having a kid, getting married, changing jobs, moving to a different city, even something small, like getting a dog can lead to rapid behavior change.

我认为这其中非常关键的一点是，这些决定大多都是不可逆的。

And I think one of the things that is really crucial about it is that most of those decisions tend to be irreversible.

或者至少很难逆转。

Or at least very hard to reverse.

我曾经有一个长期困扰我的例子。

I had one that I struggled with for a long time.

有时候人们会问我，你知道吗，你一直难以克服哪些习惯？

Sometimes people ask me, you know, what habits have you struggled with or whatever?

我在保证充足睡眠方面一直做得不错。

And I tend to be pretty good about getting enough sleep.

我几乎总能睡足八小时，如果训练强度大的话甚至能睡九小时，但我曾经陷入一种模式：晚上九点或十点的时候。

I almost always get eight hours or even nine if I'm training hard, but I would fall into this pattern where it'd be like nine or ten o'clock at night.

我会突然又来劲了，心想：好吧，也许我再发几封邮件吧。

And I would kind of get a second wind and it'd be like, well, maybe I'll just send a few emails or something.

当然，从来都不是只发几条消息就完事了，等你反应过来，都已经半夜一两点了。

And of course it's never just a few you turn around it's midnight or one.

然后你就会想，好吧，我今晚能睡够八个小时吗？

And you're like, okay, am I going to sleep for eight hours?

因为如果睡够了，就意味着我得等到九点才能起床。

Cause if so, that means I'm not getting up till nine.

我知道我更喜欢早起。

And I know that I prefer to get up early.

我知道这样第二天一整天的状态都会更好。

I know that I feel better throughout the rest of the next day.

晚上十点的詹姆斯正在毁掉明天的一切。

10PM James is kind of ruining things for tomorrow.

詹姆斯因为熬夜而毁了明天。

James by staying up late.

我试过很多不同的方法。

And tried a bunch of different things.

有一种叫插座定时器的小设备。

There's a little device called an outlet timer.

你可以在亚马逊上花大约10美元买到。

You can buy it for like $10 on Amazon.

把它插在插座上，你可以设置它在何时切断该插座的电源。

You plug it into an outlet and you can set the time for when it kills the power from that outlet.

所以，如果你把路由器插在上面，那么网络就会在晚上10点或你设定的任何时间关闭。

And so like, if you plug your internet into it, then like the internet shuts off at 10PM or whatever you set it for.

所以我试过类似的各种方法，但你只要拿起手机就能绕过它。

So I tried different things like that, but then you could just pick your phone up and get around it.

但最终让我坚持下来的是养了一只狗，因为狗不管我几点睡，都会在早上7点起床。

But the thing that finally made it stick was getting a dog because the dog is going to get up at 7AM whenever I go to sleep, that doesn't matter.

我得带它去散步。

And I need to go take it for a walk.

你只能这样坚持几天，之后就会觉得：好吧，我不玩这个游戏了。

And you can only do that for a few days before you're like, all right, I'm not gonna play this game anymore.

我十点上床睡觉。

I'm going to bed at ten.

这是因为这件事很难逆转。

It's because it was fairly hard to reverse.

他们终于做到了。

They got it to stick.

我觉得，有了孩子之后，他们每天都会在那儿。

And I think, you know, in the case of having a kid, they're gonna be there every day now.

也许你之前可以找很多理由来安慰自己，但那已经无济于事了。

Maybe you could rationalize it a bunch of times before that, but that's not going to change.

他们周围一直有孩子，奇怪的是，据说这个人的妻子当时怀孕了。

They're going to be around and weirdly because presumably this person's wife was pregnant.

所以他们整个孕期都看到了，但那并没有促使他们改变。

So they obviously saw that throughout the whole pregnancy, but that didn't get them to change.

但一旦孩子出生了，天啊，变化立刻就发生了。

But once the child is there, man, it's really immediate.

你吸一口烟，就有那双小眼睛回望着你。

You're taking a puff and you have those little eyes looking back at you.

这个反馈循环比以前更紧密了。

The feedback loop is even tighter than before.

所以我想象这两者可能都起了作用，但更广泛地说，这类不可逆或难以逆转的生活方式改变往往也是促使行为迅速变化的重要因素。

So I would imagine both of those things probably play a role, but more generally speaking, those kinds of irreversible or hard to reverse lifestyle changes also tend to be big drivers of quick behavior change.

我只能想到一个我改变后一直坚持下来的显著习惯，这事儿听起来很傻，但我小时候总是咬指甲，不停地咬。

I can only think of one dramatic habit I changed that has stuck and it is the silliest thing, but I always bit my nails growing up, Bite them nonstop.

结果 inevitably 会感染，因为你咬得太深了，我妈妈总是说：天啊，这习惯太恶心了。

Invariably what happens is you'd get a little infection because you bite too close and it was like my mom was always like, God, that is such a disgusting habit.

看起来简直太难看了。

Like it just looked horrible.

我决定改掉这个习惯的那天，是我第一次收到医学院的面试通知。

The day I decided to change it was the day I got my first interview for med school.

你申请医学院，然后突然间，录取通知一封接一封地来，面试也接踵而至。

You apply to medical school and then all of a sudden the envelope start coming in and you've got these interviews.

就在收到第一封信的时候，我意识到：哦，我真的要去参加面试了。至少对我来说，我以前从没为上大学面试过。

Just as I got that first envelope and I realized, oh, I'm actually going to go and be interviewing, at least for me, I didn't interview to go to college.

这是我第一次需要参加面试，不知怎么的，我突然有了某种觉悟。

This was the first time I had to do an interview and I don't know, just something came over me.

我对自己说：等等，伙计，你不能穿着一副难看的指甲去参加面试。

I was like, wait a second dude, you can't be the guy that's showing up to an interview with these horrible looking nails.

你必须戒掉这个习惯。

You have to cut this out.

你要去买个指甲钳，然后像一个文明人一样开始剪指甲。

You are going to get a nail clipper and you are gonna start clipping your nails like a civilized human being.

那已经是大约二十五年前的事了。

And that was, I don't know, twenty five years ago.

直到今天，只要我的指甲长了，我就喜欢剪短，所以总在修剪它们。

And today, like when my nails get long, I'm a guy who likes short nails so I'm always sort of trimming them.

我简直无法想象自己曾经会咬指甲。

I can't imagine that I once bit them.

这对我来说太奇怪了。

It just seems so strange to me.

这是一个愚蠢的例子。

It's a silly example.

我不觉得这有什么奇怪的。

I don't think it is actually.

我们每个人都有这样的习惯。

We all have habits that are like that.

有两件事让我想到了这一点。

There's two things that made me think.

第一点是，它与我们几分钟前关于身份的对话有关，你已经开始为此感到自豪。

The first is it connects to our conversation about identity from a few minutes ago, which is you'd started to take pride in it.

你在意自己的形象。

You cared about how you presented.

当我们对自身身份的某些方面、对自己故事的某些部分感到自豪时，这些行为就会变得更加根深蒂固。

And the more that we take pride in certain elements of our identity, or aspects of who we are, certain parts of our story, the more strongly that behavior starts to stick.

你可以想象一位对自己的发型非常自豪的女性。

You can imagine a woman who takes pride in how her hair looks.

她很可能有一整套护发习惯、产品和日常做法。

She probably has all kinds of haircare habits and products and things that she does.

她大概不需要像我们对待其他许多习惯那样，去说服自己去做这些事。

And she probably doesn't have to convince herself to do them the same way that we talk about convincing ourselves with a lot of other habits.

我真希望自己能写作，或者我真希望自己能锻炼，诸如此类。

Oh, I wish I could write or I wish I would work out or whatever.

这仅仅是她身份的一部分。

It's just an element of her identity.

她为此感到自豪，并且相当稳定地坚持着；就像那个因为肱二头肌发达而经常受到称赞的男性。

She takes pride in and shows she does it like fairly consistently or the guy who gets complimented on the size of his biceps.

所以他从不缺席健身房的臂部训练日，因为这是他引以为豪的身份特质。

And so he just never skips arm day in the gym because it's an aspect of his identity that he takes pride in.

我想表达的是，你的故事中有哪些部分是你感到自豪的？

What I'm kind of getting at is like, what parts of your story do you take pride in?

一旦你开始为此感到自豪，你就会拼命努力去保持它。

And once you start to take pride in it, man, you'll fight for it pretty hard to keep it.

在很多情况下，你会发现自己会自然而然地做这件事，或者至少内心有动力继续做下去。

And in many cases, you'll find yourself doing it somewhat naturally, or at least internally motivated to continue doing it.

所以，这是第一点。

So that was the first piece.

第二点是，自从《原子习惯》出版以来，我认为这一点比我写书时意识到的还要重要，那就是社会环境对你的习惯的影响。

The second piece, and this is something that since atomic habits has come out, I think is even more important than I realized when I was writing the book, which is the influence of the social environment on your habits.

就你的情况而言，医学院面试，实际上是你脑海中对他人看法和你在面试中表现的期望。

So in your case, the med school interviews, it was actually the image in your mind, the expectation about what other people might think and how you would present in that interview.

因此，他人的评判在很大程度上推动了这种改变。

And so on the judgment of others, essentially that helped drive that change.

如果你观察那些真正能持久的行为，那些能持续十年、二十年甚至三十年的习惯，

And if you look at behaviors that really stick, the ones that tend to stick for ten or twenty or thirty years, long time.

通常都涉及强烈的社会因素。

There's often a strong social component involved.

举个例子，我们每个人都属于多个群体。

So for example, we are all part of multiple tribes.

有些群体规模很大，比如身为美国人的意义；有些群体则很小，比如你是某个CrossFit健身房的成员，或者你是街上某个邻居，就拿邻里关系来说。

Some of those tribes are large, like what it means to be American, or some of those tribes are small, like being a member of your CrossFit gym or being a neighbor on your street, take the neighborhood example.

你可能走出去，看到邻居在周三晚上割草，于是心想：我也该割草了。

You might walk outside and see your neighbor mowing their grass on Wednesday night or something and think, Oh, I need to cut my lawn.

你会坚持这个割草的习惯长达二三十年，或者只要你住在这所房子里就会一直保持。

And you'll stick with that habit of mowing your grass for twenty or thirty years or however long you live in that house.

我们真希望其他大多数习惯也能有这种程度的一致性。

Like we wish we had that level of consistency with most of our other habits.

你为什么部分地这么做呢？

And why do you do it partially?

你这么做，部分是因为拥有整洁的草坪感觉很好，但最主要的原因是你不想被邻居们评判为那个邋遢的人。

You do it because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but mostly you do it because you don't want to be judged by the other people in the neighborhood for being the sloppy one.

因此，真正让这个习惯持久的，其实是这种社会规范——即你作为这个社区一员所应具备的行为期待。

And so it's actually that social norm, that expectation for what it means to be part of this neighborhood and how you act in this group or this tribe that helps get the habit to stick.

我认为，如果你真的希望某种行为改变能够持久，那么最好的实际做法是加入那些你所期望的行为已成为常态的群体。

I think the practical takeaway there, if you really want a behavior change to last is to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior.

因为如果在那个群体中这是常态，那么你做这件事就会显得更加自然和普通。

Because if it's normal in that group, it's going to seem much more normal and typical for you to do it.

我的意思是，彼得，我敢肯定你属于多个群体，这些群体的行为在大多数人看来可能都算得上是怪异的习惯。

I mean, Peter, I'm sure you're part of multiple groups that do what most people would determine are like weird habits.

比如，我敢肯定有一群朋友特别热衷于开车。

Like I'm sure there's a group of friends who are really into driving cars.

还可能有一群人特别喜欢弓箭狩猎和射箭。

And there's probably another group who's like really into bow hunting and archery.

这些小群体都有自己各种各样的习惯。

And there are all kinds of habits that these little tribes do.

这些行为对普通人来说可能显得很奇怪，但当你身处这些群体中，或与这些人交流时，坚持这些习惯对你来说却可能非常轻松、自然，因为这些本来就是他们生活的一部分。

And it might seem strange to the normal person, but it's probably very casual or typical or easy relatively for you to stick to those habits, especially when you're a part of those groups or talking with those guys, because it's just part of something that it's part of what they do.

我认为，这里更深层的启示是，我们养成习惯并不仅仅是因为它们带来的结果。

And I think maybe the deeper lesson here is that we don't just do habits because of the results they get us.

我们也会采取某些行为，因为它们向周围的人传递了一个信号：嘿，我懂了。

We also take behaviors because they are a signal to the people around us that, Hey, I get it.

我融入其中。

I fit in.

我知道在这个群体里该如何行事。

I understand how to act in this group.

大多数人如果必须在拥有自己想要的习惯但与群体格格不入，

Most people, if they have to choose between having the habits they want to have, but they kind of go against the grain of the group.

以及拥有自己并不真正喜欢但能融入群体的习惯之间做选择，

They like don't really fit in well, they get ostracized or having habits that they don't really love, but they get to go along with the crowd.

他们会因为属于群体而受到赞扬。

Fit in, they get praised for being part of the group.

大多数人会选择归属感而非孤独。

Most people will choose belonging over loneliness.

归属的渴望会压倒提升自我的渴望。

Like the desire to belong will overpower the desire to improve.

所以你要确保这两点一致，加入那些你期望的行为就是常态的群体。

And so you want to make sure you get those two things aligned to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior.

我怀疑，对我来说，买西装这个举动就是一个提示，而且那是我第一套西装。

I wonder if part of the cue for me was buying a suit and it was the first suit I had.

那一刻我突然意识到：等等，你穿上西装了。

That was sort of a, wait a minute, you're wearing a suit.

想想你为了这套衣服、这条领带，还有其他种种东西，花了多少功夫。

Think of the trouble you're going to to get this thing and then this tie that you're gonna wear and blah blah blah, all this sort of stuff.

但这很有趣。

But it's interesting.

然后很明显，这逐渐成了我身份的一部分：我是一个指甲很整洁的人。

And then clearly it just became a part of my identity, which is I'm a person who has nice fingernails.

至少从指甲的角度来看，我给人的印象很好。

I present well from the fingernail standpoint, at least.

这还没转化到我所有的习惯上，但咱们聊聊那四条法则吧。

Hasn't translated to all of my habits, but let's talk about the four laws.

因为这四条法则是我们所讨论内容的核心原则，而且它们也可以被逆转，这一点在我们思考如何建立适应性习惯而非打破非适应性习惯时非常重要。

Because these four laws are kind of the central tenets to what we speak about and they can be inverted as well, which I think is important as we think about creating, call it adaptive habits versus breaking maladaptive habits.

那么第一条法则是什麼？

So what's the first law?

在进入这四条之前，我先简单解释一下这个框架，特别是针对本集或本节目，因为我觉得你的观众会比大多数观众更理解它。

Real quick before we get into these four, I just want to explain the framework a little bit in particular for this episode or this show, because I feel like your audience will appreciate it more than most audiences.

我喜欢把习惯分为四个阶段。

I like to divide a habit into four stages.

正如你所说，这四个阶段衍生出了我所说的改变行为的四大法则。

And as you said, those four stages kind of have what I call the four laws of behavior change that come out of it.

但当我撰写《原子习惯》并研究这个框架、试图理解行为为何发生以及如何发生时，

But when I was working on atomic habits and researching this framework and trying to understand why do behaviors happen and how do they happen?

习惯是如何形成的？

How do habits form?

我有一些问题，觉得以往的框架并没有很好地解答。

I had a couple of questions that I felt like previous frameworks did not answer that well.

在撰写这本书的过程中，我找到了40种不同的人类行为模型，这些模型由生物学家、神经科学家、心理学家以及多个不同行业在过去大约一百五十年间提出。

While researching the book, I was able to find 40 different models of human behavior that biologists and neuroscientists and psychologists, a bunch of different industries had come up with over the last, say about one hundred and fifty years.

总的来说，这些人类行为模型大致可以分为两类。

Broadly speaking, those models of human behavior tended to fall into one of two categories.

第一类，我称之为动机模型。

The first category or what I would call like motivation models.

它们解释了诸如内在驱动力、动机、渴望等，也就是促使我们采取行动的因素。

So they explain things like internal drives and motivations and cravings and kind of like what compels us to act.

第二类则是我所说的强化模型。

And then the second category were what I would call reinforcement models.

它们描述了我们从行为中获得的奖励，以及这些奖励如何强化我们的行为，本质上是行为发生后会发生什么。

And so they described the rewards that we get from behaviors and how those things kind of reinforce our behavior and essentially what happens like after an action.

我想做的是构建一个模型，能够准确描述行为发生前可能存在的动机，以及行为发生后可能产生的强化，以及这两者如何共同影响我们的行动。

And what I wanted to do was try to come up with a model that I felt like accurately described both the motivation that may come before and the reinforcement that may come after and how those things influence the actions that we take.

对于人类行为，还有一些我认为相当简单的问题，之前的模型并没有完全解答。

And there were a variety of what I thought were fairly simple questions about human behavior that weren't totally answered by the previous models.

比如，是什么让人最初愿意去尝试？

So things like what causes somebody to try, haven't in the first place.

那时你还没体验过奖励。

You haven't experienced the reward at that point.

那为什么你会吃第一口煎饼或吸第一口香烟？

So why would you take the first bite of a pancake or the first smoke of a cigarette?

是什么促使你去做这些事？

What would motivate you to do that?

最初是B.F.斯金纳的刺激-反应-奖励模型，查尔斯·杜希格的《习惯的力量》普及了线索-习惯-奖励的模式，但我们说，好吧，习惯就是线索。

Started with BF Skinner stimulus response reward, Charles Duhigg and power of habit kind of popularized his cue routine reward, but we say, okay, habits are a cue.

然后是行动。

And then there's the action.

接着会有一些结果。

There's some kind of outcome.

那为什么两个人对同一件事的反应会不同？

Well, how come two people respond differently to the same thing?

比如，为什么一个人看到香烟就会觉得‘我必须抽一支’？

Like why would one person see a cigarette and feel like, Oh, I have to smoke.

而另一个人却说：‘我这辈子从来没抽过烟。'

And another person's like, I've never smoked a day in my life.

我对它完全不感兴趣。

I'm not interested at all.

因为如果只是线索导致了行为，你可能会以为他们都会做出同样的反应。

Because if it's just the cue that leads to the action, you would think they would do the same thing.

为什么同一个人对同一个线索会有不同的反应？

Why would the same person respond differently to the same cue?

为什么我早上7点走进厨房，看到一条面包就会想‘我要烤点吐司当早餐’，但下午4点再走进去，看到同样的面包却毫无想法？

How come when I walk in my kitchen at 7AM, I see a loaf of bread and I think, I'm going to make some toast for breakfast, but then I walk in at 4PM and I see that same cue and I don't think anything of it.

我只是继续走开。

I just move on.

所以总结这一切，我认为我所归纳的四个阶段中有一个重要的区别，正是这个区别让我觉得它准确地描述了人类行为，而这一洞察源于我在研究神经科学家丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特时的发现。

So to summarize all of this, I think one of the meaningful distinctions about the four stages that I put together and why I feel like it accurately describes human behavior and sort of the insight that I came across as I was researching a neuroscientist named Lisa Feldman Barrett.

她做了大量研究，并出版了多本关于这个主题的书籍。

She has a bunch of studies and a couple of books on this topic.

其中一本对我研究特别有帮助的书叫《情绪是如何形成的》。

One book in particular that was useful for me while I was researching is called how emotions are made.

核心观点是，我们常常认为人类行为是反应性的，即别人做了某事，我就会做出回应；别人说了什么，我就会产生某种情绪。但实际上，人类行为大多是预测性的。

The key insight is that we often think that human behavior is reactive in the sense that somebody does something and I respond or somebody says something and I feel a certain way, but in fact, human behavior is mostly predictive.

你一直在不断经历生活，预测接下来该做什么。

You were kind of endlessly going through your experience in life, predicting about what to do next.

我认为，正是这种预测，是以往许多习惯和行为模型所缺失的关键要素。

It's actually this prediction that I think was the key thing that was missing from a lot of the previous models of habits and behavior.

因此，以此作为

So with that as

一个铺垫。

a primer.

在我们继续之前，我想你在这本书中提到过，多巴胺的激增更多来自于对奖励的期待，而不是实际获得奖励的行为。

Before we do that, I think you wrote about this in the book, which was that the dopaminergic surge comes more from the anticipation of the reward than the actual behavior that gives the reward.

我记的是对的吗？

Did I remember that correctly?

关于多巴胺的研究多得数不清。

There's a bazillion studies on dopamine.

当然。

Of course.

我还想说，如果你只谈多巴胺，那并不能完整解释习惯的形成。

Also I should say like, I think if you only talk about dopamine, it's not the full story about habits.

实际上，这个过程涉及许多神经化学物质，多巴胺只是整体图景中的一部分，但它长期以来确实扮演着非常重要的角色。

Like there's many neurochemicals that are involved in the process and dopamine is just one part of the overall picture, but it does play a very important role for a long time.

我们曾以为多巴胺与奖励、满足和愉悦有关，但事实上，多巴胺的关键作用在于预测和期待。

We thought it was about reward and satisfaction and enjoyment, but in fact, it seems that the crucial role dopamine plays is about prediction and anticipation.

所以当你第一次咬下一块煎饼时，你并不知道会是什么味道。

And so the first time that you take a bite of a pancake, you don't know what to expect.

于是你咬了一口。

And so you take that bite.

然后之后，你会经历一波多巴胺激增，仿佛在标记这段体验，告诉你：嘿，这很积极。

And then afterwards you get a surge of dopamine almost as if to like Mark the experience or to teach you, Hey, that was favorable.

下次你应该再这么做。

You should do that again next time.

当你再次看到煎饼时，你会记得那是一个非常棒的体验。

Like you happen to see it a pancake again, that was a really great outcome.

所以下一次，你就知道会期待什么了。

So then the next time around, you know what to expect.

事实上，我们发现，多巴胺的峰值通常出现在你咬下之前，而不是之后。

And in fact, what we find is that dopamine tends to spike before you take a bite, not after.

有许多研究显示，赌徒在掷骰子之前会有多巴胺激增，而不是之后；吸毒者在吸食可卡因之前会有多巴胺激增，而不是之后。

And there are a bunch of studies that show this gamblers get a spike before they roll the dice, not after drug addicts get a spike before they take a hit of cocaine, not after dopamine.

我认为，在这个语境下，更准确的描述方式是。

I think probably the more accurate way to describe it in this context.

它是一种教学分子。

It's a teaching molecule.

它是一个学习分子，能帮助你标记那些有利的经历，以便你下次能记住它们。

It's a learning molecule, and it helps you mark experiences that are favorable so that you'll remember them next time.

当你遇到类似的情境时，它会提前激增。

And then when you come across a similar situation, it spikes in anticipation.

因此，在你看到线索后，会产生这种渴望，而正是这种渴望、期待或预测促使你采取行动，驱动你的反应。

So after you see the cue, you get this craving and it's actually that craving or anticipation or prediction that motivates you to act drives the response.

然后会出现一个结果。

Then there's an outcome.

根据你的例子，我猜个体之间存在很大的差异，对吧？

Presumably again, using your example, there are lots of diversity between individuals, right?

假设你找10个从未抽过烟的人。

So you take 10 people who have never smoked a cigarette.

为了计算方便，我们说其中有七个人根本不想抽。

Let's just, to make the math easy, say, seven of them have no desire to.

于是他们就走开了。

So they walk away.

其中有三人说，是的，我试试看。

Three of them are like, yeah, I'll give it a try.

他们吸了一口。

They take a puff.

其中一人开始剧烈咳嗽，说：这是我这辈子尝过最恶心的东西。

One of them starts hacking and says, that is the most disgusting thing I've ever done.

我再也不想这么做了，而且他们真的再也没有做过。

I never wanna do that again, and they never do.

其中一人说：你知道吗，我有点喜欢这种感觉。

One of them says, you know, I kinda like that.

我会在社交场合抽。

I'm going do this socially.

每次我要喝酒的时候，我都会抽一根烟。

Anytime I'm going to have a drink, I'm going to have a cigarette.

而其中一人后来成了烟瘾很重的烟民。

And one of them goes on to become a chain smoker.

那么，如何解释这种差异呢？

Now, what explains that distinction?

这其中有多大程度是神经化学因素造成的？

How much of that is neurochemical?

对于酒精、毒品以及各种其他物质，都有类似的例子。

There are examples like that for alcohol and drugs and all kinds of things.

我不是成瘾方面的专家，也没有写过关于成瘾的书。

And I'm not an expert on addiction and I didn't write the book about addiction.

所以我不想越俎代庖或超出我的专业范围，但我确实没有一个很好的答案；不过根据我研究这本书时所了解和观察到的情况，这似乎确实具有很强的遗传或神经化学成分。

So I don't want to speak out of turn or step out of my lane or anything, but I don't know that I have a good answer to it, but from what I understand and from what I've seen as I was researching the book, it does seem to have a strong basically genetic or neurochemical component.

从某种意义上说，毒品就像是入侵了这套系统。

It seems like in a sense, drugs kind of hack the system.

我认为，这是定义成瘾的一种方式：学习过程实际上被破坏了。

This is I think one way to define an addiction, which is the process of learning is actually broken.

成瘾者明明知道这种行为对他们的生活并无益处，却仍然无法停止，即使他们清楚这对自己毫无好处。

Addicts know that the behavior does not benefit their lives in a lot of but they still can't get themselves to stop doing it, even though they know it doesn't benefit them.

我认为这种情况发生的一部分原因，或者说是主要原因，是药物会劫持这个系统。

And I think part of the reason that happens, or perhaps the primary reason is the drug kind of hacks the system.

它让你的多巴胺水平急剧上升，而你本不该获得这种提升。

It gives you this spike of dopamine, even though you shouldn't be getting it.

通常情况下，你的大脑是不会这样做的。

Usually your brain would not be doing that.

它本不该试图让你重复这种行为，但你通过摄入物质人为地造成了这种飙升。

It would not be trying to teach you to repeat that, but you're artificially spiking it by taking the substance.

于是，学习的过程就被破坏了。

And so then process of learning breaks.

我也觉得有趣的是，不同的人会从不同的事物中获得这种愉悦感。

I also find it interesting that different people will get that pleasure from different things.

当我状态不好、不开心的时候，我从来不会想着喝酒。

When I'm not in a good place, when I'm unhappy about something, it's never my tendency to have a drink.

所以，酒精只与我本来就想做的、感觉良好的事情联系在一起。

So alcohol would only be associated with something I want to do when feel good to begin with.

我从来不会在感觉不好时想喝酒。

I would never want to have a drink when I don't feel good.

但当我感觉不好时，我会心甘情愿地大吃垃圾食品。

But when I don't feel good, I would happily binge on junk food.

那才是能给我安慰的东西。

That would be the thing that provides comfort.

当然，有些人情绪低落时，连饭都不想吃，更别说吃垃圾食品了。

And of course, are people when they're unhappy, they would never want to eat even, let alone have junk food.

我觉得至少值得思考一下，这其中有多大程度是遗传的，有多大程度是后天习得的，还有其他哪些因素在起作用。

I find it interesting to at least contemplate how much of that is genetic, how much of that is learned and what else is going on in sort of understanding that.

因为这确实会影响我们陷入习惯的低水平状态——通常当事情不顺时，我们就会跌落到这些水平。

Because that does sort of factor into falling to the level of our habits because we fall to these levels when things are not going well typically.

我认为确实存在遗传因素。

I do think there's a genetic component.

有些人对某些物质更敏感，而另一些人则不然，至少看起来是这样。

Some people are more sensitive to certain substances than others, or at least it appears to be so.

然而，我确实觉得，很大一部分可能是后天习得的，现在你有了一个故事：垃圾食品就是我应对压力、自我安慰的方式。

However, it does strike me as like very possible that a good chunk of it is learned and that now you have a story that junk food is the way that I cope or the way that I soothe myself when I need that.

从某种意义上说，你的习惯就是你应对反复出现的问题的解决方案。

And in a sense, your habits are these solutions to like recurring problems that you face.

比如说，有个人下班回家后感到精疲力尽，这种疲惫感是他经常面对的一种反复出现的问题。

So say you have somebody who comes home from work and they feel exhausted and one person that's a recurring problem that they feel often.

于是，有的人回家后会玩三十分钟电子游戏，有的人会去跑步，还有人会抽一支烟，他们都在解决同一个潜在的反复出现的问题，只是选择了不同的方式来实现。

And so one person comes home and they play video games for thirty minutes and another person comes home and they go for a run and a third person smokes a cigarette and all of them are solving the same underlying recurring problem, but they're choosing different methods through which to do that.

我不禁思考，这些行为模式究竟是如何形成的。

And I wonder about how the grooves kind of get formed.

一旦我们发现某种方法能有效解决这个问题，就会倾向于默认使用它。

Once we learn that a certain method is effective in solving that problem, we tend to default to it.

即使它并不是唯一的解决方式，即使去跑步确实会让我感觉更好，但我现在已经习惯了抽烟。

Even if it's not the only way to solve that, even if yeah, going for a run would make me feel better, but I'm just used to smoking cigarettes now.

然后，我们就开始围绕它构建一个故事。

Then we start to develop a story around it.

这开始成为我们身份的一部分。

It starts to become a little bit of our identity.

我们开始把它当作拐杖。

We start to use it as a crutch.

我也认为这其中确实有后天习得的成分。

I do think there's definitely a learned component to that as well.

好的。

All right.

我之前打断你了，你正要讲那四大法则。

I interrupted you before you were just about to launch into the four laws.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

所以四个阶段是提示、渴望、反应和奖励。

So the four stages are cue craving response and reward.

提示是你注意到的某种东西。

The cue is something that you notice.

例如，你看到台面上有一盘饼干。

So for example, you see a plate of cookies on the counter.

这是一个视觉提示，会引发吃饼干的习惯。

That's a visual cue starts the habit of eating a cookie.

渴望是你对这个提示的预测或赋予的意义，通常会相对自动或迅速地发生。

The craving is the prediction or the meaning that you assign to that cue often happens relatively automatically or quickly.

当你看到那盘饼干时，你会想：哦，这会很甜、很糖、很好吃、很享受。

So you see the plate of cookies and you think, Oh, that'll be sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable.

正是这种积极的意义，才会引发我们之前提到的多巴胺激增。

It's that favorable meaning that leads to that dopamine spike that we talked about.

这种激增会促使你采取第三步，也就是反应。

That motivates you to take the third step, which is the response.