#136 - 卡尔·本杰明 - 催生尼克·富恩特斯的体制

他一直都在为博取关注而这么做，这一直是他的整个职业生涯。

He he he's always done this for attention, and this has been his entire career.

你知道，他在新闻界这个镜子里，或者无论他在哪里，他就是喜欢获得点击量。

You know, he was in the mirror of the news world or wherever he's He's just he likes to just get views.

他喜欢获得关注。

He likes to get attention.

但你认为他说的话，他自己也相信吗？

But do you think what he says, he believes as well?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为他是二战后秩序的守旧派。

I I think he is the sort of rearguard of the post World War two order.

对他来说，很容易认为那纯粹是无可挑剔的好事，根本不存在任何可以批评的地方。

It's easy for him to assume that that is just an unvarnished good and there's nothing to critique about it whatsoever.

因为这很简单。

Because it's it's easy.

这是懒惰。

It's lazy.

这是他出生和一直生活的环境，周围的人都会同意他的观点。

It's the the milieu in which he's always been born and always existed, and everyone around him will agree with him.

比如，很少有人会说：‘皮尔斯，我对你说的希特勒的看法不太确定。’

Like, very few people are, well, you know, I'm not so sure about your take on Hitler there, Piers.

你知道的？

You know?

没人会对他这么说。

No one's gonna say that to him.

但这个不一样。

But not so with this one.

他似乎还有一只脚踩在那个体制里。

He's it it feels like he still has one foot in the regime.

哦，他确实是。

Oh, he definitely is.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对是体制的产物。

Definitely a creature of the regime.

但我认为他本人并不这么认为。

But I think he also thinks he's not.

他还没有完全摆脱。

He hasn't fully escaped.

但有那么几个时刻。

But there were a couple of moments.

当格伦·格林沃尔德直接向他陈述事实时——我的意思是，格伦·格林沃尔德在这方面表现得非常出色，他列举了我们在伊拉克、经济和新冠疫情中对这些孩子造成的伤害，并说：难怪他们让我们去滚蛋。

There was the moment where Glenn Greenwald just I mean, Glenn Greenwald was brilliant on it, but he gave him that kind of straight up facts about what we've put these kids through with Iraq and the economy and COVID and said, no wonder they're telling us to go fuck yourself.

而你和皮尔斯确实在那一刻有所改变。

And you and and Pearce did actually change at that moment.

然后他就会制作第二期应对节目。

And then he would've made the second cope show.

但我觉得，有没有那么一个时刻呢？

But, like, I I just felt like, was there a moment?

我觉得你对他评价太高了。

I I think you're giving him too much credit.

我觉得他根本不在乎。

I think that he's I I don't I don't think he cares.

我真的觉得他不在乎。

I genuinely don't think he cares.

我觉得他只在乎收视率。

I think he just cares about ratings.

收视率、数据、收入。

Ratings, numbers, revenue.

是的。

Yeah.

你看，现在这件事最有趣的地方就在这儿。

See, that's the funny thing right now with this.

你瞧，你实际上拥有一家媒体公司。

You look, you've got a an actual media company.

这只是一个播客。

This is just a podcast.

但在这个转折点上，出现的一个重要认识是，你必须面对一些艰难的对话。

But one of the things that's come out of this kind of inflection point is realizing there's some tough conversations you have to have.

有些对话你可能想回避，因为你心想：如果我展开这样的对话，家里人可能会看到，因为讨论这个而生我的气，可能会惹恼赞助商，甚至损失一些钱。

Conversation maybe you wanna avoid because you're like, well, if I have that conversation, someone in my family might watch it, get angry with me just for discussing it, might piss off a sponsor, might lose some money.

是啊。

Yeah.

但你还是觉得，我必须得做这件事。

But you're like, I think I've gotta do this.

我觉得我必须进行这些令人不舒服的对话，否则，我到底算什么？

I think I think I've gotta have these uncomfortable conversations because otherwise, what what am I?

嗯，你总可以回到矩阵里去。

Well, you could always go back into the matrix.

那儿有个挺不错的木桩。

There's a lovely stake there.

嗯。

Yeah.

否则的话，你就要在地下与吃着泥浆的机器人作战了。

Gonna be fighting robots eating slopping Zion underground otherwise.

我昨晚看了《世界大战》

I watched War of the

昨晚。

Worlds last night.

你还记得汤姆·克鲁斯主演的《世界大战》吗？

Do you remember the Tom Cruise War of

《世界大战》？

the Worlds?

哦，很多年前了。

Oh, years ago.

你还记得那段吗？他儿子说他必须去看战斗？

Do you remember the bit where his son wants to he says he has to see the fight?

不记得。

No.

他们正试图逃离那些机器人，但他儿子却说：不。

They're trying to run away from those kind of robot things, and his son's like, no.

我得看看，然后他儿子冲进了战斗。

I've gotta see this, And his son goes into the fight.

好吧。

Alright.

我想不起来了。

I can't remember it.

汤姆·克鲁斯以为他儿子去送死了。

And Tom Cruise assumes his son's off to die.

是的。

Yeah.

显然不会，因为这是一部汤姆·克鲁斯的电影，但我的意思是，他本该死的。

Obviously, it doesn't because it's a Tom Cruise movie, but, I mean, he should have died.

但孩子非得去看比赛。

But the kid had to go see the fight.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我只是觉得，我们现在就处在那个时刻。

And I just think it we're at that moment now.

这种情况正变得比以往任何时候都更明显。

It's it's becoming it's more obvious than ever.

我昨天看到一条推文。

I saw this tweet yesterday.

这位女士说，我的更多朋友正在变得激进。

This lady said, more of my friends are becoming radicalized.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就连我一些左翼朋友也在变得激进化。

Even some of my lefty friends are becoming radicalized.

不过顺便说一句，我并不认为你正在变得激进化。

But by the way, I don't actually think you're becoming radicalized.

我认为你正在变得正常化。

I think you're becoming normalized.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得所有那些奇怪的事情都是激进的，但顺便说一下。

I think everything all the weird shit is radical, but by the by.

但我觉得现在我们有一种责任，我不知道你有没有谈过这个，你有孩子吗？

But I think there's like this duty now in that our job is I don't know if you've talked about this, but do you have kids?

有。

Yeah.

我有四个孩子。

I've got four.

好的。

Okay.

所以你知道，你的责任是为孩子们留下一个更好的世界。

So you you know your job is to leave a better world for your kids.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

你需要给他们留下智慧， hopefully，一点积蓄，但更重要的是，让他们拥有雄心和去创造一些东西的渴望。

You you need to leave them with wisdom, hopefully, a little nest egg, but also the ambition and, you know, the desire to go and build something.

一个状况良好的国家会很好。

A country that's in good condition would be nice.

嗯，这是第二点。

Well, that's the second point.

这是每个孩子都该有的。

That's the thing for every kid.

嗯。

Mhmm.

分为两类。

There's two groups.

一个是你的孩子，另一个是别人的孩子。

It's your kids and everyone else's.

如果我们继续走现在这条路，我们就是在接受一种情况：我们选择了一个更糟糕的国家给他们生活。

And if we carry on down this path that we're on now, we are accepting a situation where we're choosing a worse country for them to be in.

没错。

Correct.

因此，我们作为父母彻底失败了，所以这几乎是对所有记者、法官、议员的呼吁。

And so we're totally failing as parents, and therefore, anyone it's almost like a call out for any journalist, judge, MP.

你们现在都在说：我希望我们的孩子生活在一个更糟糕的世界。

You are all saying right now, I want a worse world for our kids.

对。

Correct.

这简直是胡说八道。

That's bullshit.

对。

Correct.

全部都是。

All of it.

我的意思是，从哪儿说起呢？

I mean, where to begin?

我的意思是，我想不出任何一项指标能表明事情在任何方面、任何形式上正在变好。

I mean, there's no there's no metric that I can think of in which things are getting better in any way, shape, or form.

而这彻底摧毁了二战后的叙事。

And what this does is it completely destroys the post World War two narrative.

因为那是一个关于进步的叙事，总认为未来会有改善。

Because it's the narrative of progress that there is always improvement on the horizon.

在过去大概十到十五年里，我认为这个叙事已经彻底崩塌了。

And for the last, I don't know, ten, fifteen years, I think that narrative has died on its ass.

嗯。

Mhmm.

没有任何进步。

There's no progress.

情况正在变得更糟。

Things are getting worse.

所以，无论我们正在做什么，我们所做的一切都完全符合自由派对世界的看法，那种约翰·列侬想象中的世界。

So whatever it is we're doing, and what we're doing is perfectly in line with the hyper liberal view of the world, the sort of John Lennon imagined view of the world.

这只会让一切变得更糟，因为我们根本不愿意正视现实中的某些方面。

Well, that's making everything worse, and it's because there are actual there are there are aspects of reality that we're just not prepared to talk about.

而我们所做的，就是把这些东西投射到阿道夫·希特勒身上。

And what we do is we embody those in Adolf Hitler.

我们说这个人集中了所有邪恶的特质，但这些其实并不真实。

We say this guy is all of those evil things and they're not true.

我们知道是因为我们赢得了第二次世界大战，因此你永远不被允许对它进行任何智力上的探究。

And we know because we won World War two, and therefore, you are never allowed to even begin to have an intellectual investigation into it.

因为我想刚才说的是，我非常热爱历史。

Because what what I wanted to say a minute ago was I I'm a big lover of history.

我喜欢阅读历史，而历史上所有伟大的人物也都是某种意义上的怪物。

I I love reading about history, and everyone who's great from history is also some kind of monster.

对吧？

Right?

亚历山大大帝摧毁了底比斯。

Alexander the Great destroyed Thebes.

对吧？

Right?

底比斯是古希腊一个著名的强大城邦。

Thebes is a famous powerful Greek city.

他杀光了城中所有人，把幸存者卖为奴隶，而且在征服波斯帝国的过程中，他多次这样做过。

He killed everyone in it and sold whoever survived into slavery, and he did that multiple times on his conquest of the Persian Empire.

对吧？

Right?

罗马人摧毁了整个文明。

The Romans destroyed entire civilizations.

比如，当他们消灭迦太基时，那可是80万人，一个曾经横跨西地中海的古老文明，他们彻底将其抹去。

Like, when they wiped out Carthage, that was 800,000 people, an ancient civilization that had an empire of its own spanning across the Western Mediterranean, and they wiped them out.

而且花了整整两周才完成。

It and it took two weeks for them to do it.

花了两周时间才将这座庞大的城市从地球上彻底抹除。

Took two weeks to erase this city from existence because it was so vast.

它太强大了。

It was so strong.

在当时，它是如此强大而富庶。

It was so powerful and rich in its own day.

我的意思是，他们打了三场战争才做到这一点。

And I mean, it took them three wars to do it.

还有拿破仑。

And Napoleon.

对。

Yeah.

拿破仑杀死了成吉思汗。

Napoleon killed killed Genghis Khan.

四百到五百万人口，差不多吧。

Four, five million people, something like that.

欧洲就是被这场战争摧毁的。

Like Europe was destroyed from this.

成吉思汗，蒙古人真是最糟糕的。

Genghis Khan, like the Mongols are just the worst.

事实上，这种情况贯穿了整个历史。

In fact, and and and goes back all through history.

对吧？

Right?

你只是看到有这么多人死亡，而且别误会我。

You've just got so many people dead And it's and don't get me wrong.

阿道夫·希特勒当然很糟糕，但他只是加入了那些在人们记忆消退后，被写进历史书里的坏人行列。

Adolf Hitler was bad, obviously, but he just joins a pantheon of bad people when it passes out of living memory and it passes into what I'm reading in a history book.

所以对Z世代来说，希特勒可能就像一千年前的人物，因为周围没有人亲身经历过那些事件。

And so for the Zoomers, Alf Hitler could have been a thousand years ago because it's not anyone around them that they know who went through the events.

因此，时间仿佛进入了一种梦幻状态，过去的一切都发生在遥远的地方，与我们无关，因为现在活着的人都不记得了。

So the the time sort of it it ends into a kind of dream time where everything in the past did happen over there, miles away from where we are because no one alive now remembers it.

所以你可以说：好吧，你不被允许觉得希特勒很酷。

And so you can say, well, you're not allowed to think out of Hitler's cool.

就像，听好了，伙计。

It's like, look, man.

他的西装都是由雨果·博斯设计的。

He had his suits done by Hugo Boss.

你知道，他穿着所有那些非常帅气的西装，还有那些人整齐列队行进。

You know, he had all of these, you know, really good looking suits and he had all these guys marching in formation.

他们为自己强大的力量和集体性感到自豪，也像富埃特斯群体所描述的那样，为自己作为直白男性而自豪。

They were very proud of their strength and of their collectivity and proud of themselves as as the Fuentes crowd would characterize them straight white men.

我们根本不能把那些可能体现这种特质的英雄人物据为己有。

And in no way are we allowed to take our own heroes who could have embodied that.

我的意思是，像纳尔逊、华盛顿，或者其他人。

I mean, like Nelson, Washington, whoever.

我们不允许把我们自己的英雄拿出来，说：没错，这些人正是直白男性的绝佳代表。

We're not allowed to take our own heroes and say, yeah, no, these are a great embodiment of straight white men.

你已经把这种现象病理化了。

You've pathologized this.

直白男性不允许拥有一个可以团结在旗下的集体偶像，说这就是我们想代表的形象。

Straight white men are not allowed to have a collective icon that they can rally behind and say that's what we want to be represented by.

如果他们全都被妖魔化了，那我们干脆挑最坏的那个来表示反抗好了？

And so if they're all demonized, well, why don't we just take the worst one as a fuck you then?

你知道，归根结底，

You know, because at the end of the day,

他们穿着很棒的雨果博斯西装。

they had great Hugo Boss suits.

是的。

Yeah.

我还没到那一步。

I'm not there yet.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我并不是

I'm not

我也没到那一步。

there either.

但你在谈论富恩特斯。

But but you're you're talking about Fuentes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我不是说我觉得这样。

I'm I'm not saying I think this.

显然，我认为英国人在二战中是正义的一方，因为我是英国人。

Obviously, I think the British were the good guys in World War two because I'm British.

但关键是，他们一直被系统性地剥离了文化根源。

But the point is they have been systematically deracinated.

他们正被从自身文明的语境中移除。

They're being removed from the context of their own civilization.

他们没有被当作必须道德地维护的传统继承者来对待。

They are not being treated as the inheritors of a tradition that they are morally obligated to uphold.

因此，他们被抛入了一个原子化的世界，在这个世界里，其他人都有身份群体，而他们没有；其他人都因为属于某个身份群体而享有某种特权或特殊待遇。

And so they're being thrown into this atomized world where everyone else has an identity group but them, and everyone else has some kind of privileges or some kind of special dispensation for being a part of the identity group.

而他们却像是被孤立的个体。

And they're like, you know, you're radical individuals.

赶紧的。

Get on with it.

祝你们好运，伙计们。

Good luck lads.

他们可能会说：好吧，我们干脆组成一个党卫军单位，沿着街道齐步走，这样会让我们感觉安全、有力量，而你们的反应恰恰证实了这一点。

And they're like, well, actually we could just coalesce into an SS unit and start goose stepping down the street and actually that'll make us feel secure, that makes us feel powerful and your reaction to it validates this.

为什么尼克·富恩特斯会上电视？

Why is Nick Fuentes on TV?

为什么像查克·舒默这样的人会在参议院站起来说：我们必须与尼克·富恩特斯划清界限？

Why are like, Chuck Schumer was getting up in the senate going, oh, we must disavow Nick Fuentes.

还有丹尼·芬克尔斯坦在电视上说：我们必须谴责尼克·富恩特斯。

Like, Danny Finkelstein going on TV going, oh, we have to disavow Nick Fuentes.

他不过是个有播客的普通人，伙计。

So he's a he's a pleb with a podcast, mate.

他们其实并没有真的组建党卫军单位，但他们的想法是：我们干脆联合起来，成立一个‘直白男性俱乐部’。

You know, they're not actually forming the SS units, but just conceptually that they're thinking, actually, we will club together and be the straight white man club.

这让你慌了神。

That's got you freaking out.

这才是权力。

That's power.

你正在赋予他们权力。

You are giving them power.

你暴露了这种立场本身就具有力量。

You're revealing that there is power in that position.

对于这些一生都处于社会底层的无权男性，你认为他们为什么不会抓住这种机会呢？

And for these powerless men who have been at the bottom of the totem pole of society for their entire lives, why do you think they wouldn't take that?

你知道，他们并不在意那些标志和符号，比如纳粹、希特勒。

You know, they don't care about the signs and symbols, oh, Nazi, Hitler.

他们其实并不在乎这些。

They don't care about any of that really.

他们在乎的是氛围、势头，以及一种摆脱这种将他们视为问题的女性化社会压迫的方式。

What they care about is vibe and momentum and a way of getting out from under the heel of this feminized society that's going to treat them like the problem.

我前几天看到，据说孩子们在学校里会被教导安德鲁·泰特是坏的。

I saw the other day that apparently kids are gonna be taught in school Andrew Tate is bad.

这就像说，哦，当然，这只会提升安德鲁·泰特的知名度。

It's like, oh yeah, I'm sure that's not gonna do anything but raise Andrew Tate's profile.

所以另一个男人说，哦，他们在笑。

So the other man like, oh, they're laugh.

你讨厌安德鲁·泰特吗？

You hate Andrew Tate, do you?

太棒了。

Brilliant.

你知道吗？

Do you know what?

安德鲁·泰特，真是个失败者。

Andrew Tate, know what a loser.

看看这个肌肉发达的综合格斗亿万富翁冠军。

Look this muscular MMA millionaire champion.

哦，是啊。

Like, oh, yeah.

真是个失败者。

What a loser.

真是个彻头彻尾的失败者。

What an absolute loser.

不。

No.

他还行。

He okay.

很棒。

Great.

那就是直白男性去的地方吗？

That's that's where the straight white men go, is it?

他们都在去安德鲁·泰特的粉丝俱乐部呢，老兄。

They're going to the Andrew Tate fan club, dude.

他们太棒了。

They're brilliant.

这是因为我们憎恨这个系统。

That's because we hate this system.

这个系统显然憎恨我们。

The system clearly hates us.

它根本没给我们留一个能获得尊重的位置。

It's got no appropriate place for us where we are honored.

所以去你的。

And so fuck you.

我们正在反抗。

We are just in revolt.

这就是那些追随希特勒的人所做的事情。

And that's what that's what the Gropers are with Hitler.

这就是年轻男性追随安德鲁·泰特的原因。

That's what young men are with Andrew Tate.

这种情况会继续发生。

That's what's gonna keep happening.

我们要么为这些年轻人在我们的文明中找到一席之地，要么他们就会颠覆它。

And either we find a place for these young men in our civilization or they're gonna turn it over.

我们如何才能让这种观点主流化，让更多人接受？

How do we mainstream that to a point where it becomes something enough people accept?

因为困难在于让人们接受这一点。

Because the difficult the challenge is is getting people to accept this.

因为你看，你很聪明。

Because, look, you're you're smart.

你很机智。

You're clever.

你能看明白。

You can see it.

我二十四小时前才重新审视了一下，才有了这种顿悟。

Took took me took me twenty four hours ago and revisited and kind of have a realization.

没有完成那个过程。

Didn't get through that process.

嗯，他们确实没有。

Well, they didn't.

你知道，有些人即使经历了这些，依然能挺过来。

And, you know, some people could go through that and still still come out.

我的意思是，我认识一个人，他读过我的两篇文章。

I mean, there's some one person I know who's read both both my articles.

他们看过了。

They've watched it.

他们仍然专注于尼克说过的话，他们说：是的，但这很危险。

They're still so focused on what Nick said and has said, and they're saying yes, but it's dangerous.

顺便说一句，我认为他们说得有道理。

And by the way, I do think they have a point.

哦，这确实很危险。

Oh, it is dangerous.

他们可能是一种，我不知道。

They can be a I don't know.

你不知道是谁在误解这一点，尤其是年轻人，可能会因此做出什么举动。

You don't know who is misinterpreting that as a young person or what that they might do off the back of that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们确实有道理。

They've totally got a point.

但我反问的是，你们打算怎么做？

But my question back was, what are you gonna do about it?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这就是问题所在。

That is the question.

关键是，他们担心得没错。

And the thing is, right, like, they're not wrong to be worried.

是的。

Yes.

因为从历史上看，如果你只是说，好吧。

Because historically, if you just say, okay.

当这群人开始组织起来时，会发生什么？

Well, when this group of people starts organizing, what happens?

当一群年轻、直男、白人开始组织时，帝国就会形成。

Well, when bands of young straight white men start organizing, empires are formed.

从十六世纪开始，事实就是如此：世界各地的大帝国开始建立，原因是一些激进的、在这个案例中是基督教的、但本质上是激进的年轻男子，他们愿意肩并肩站在一起，向他人开枪、用火枪射击。

That's literally what happened from, like, the sixteenth century onwards, is vast empires across the world started being formed because of radical, in this case, Christian, but, like, radical young men who are prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with one another and fire rifles at people, muskets at people.

是的，这确实很危险。

Like, yeah, that is dangerous.

这确实非常危险。

It is absolutely dangerous.

这些人是我们文明的战士。

These are the fighting men of our civilization.

我们告诉他们：看，你们在这里没有位置。

We're telling them, look, you've got no place here.

好吧。

Okay.

我认为，如果你一直让这个问题像一个敞开的伤口，他们会自己找到解决办法的。

I think they'll figure out their own solution if you keep leaving this problem like an open wound.

我的意思是，我们为什么要告诉我们的年轻人，他们在我们的文明中没有位置？

I mean, why are we telling our young men that they don't have a place in our civilization?

这样做太可怕了，不是吗？

That's a horrific thing to do, isn't it?

难怪他们感到如此受委屈。

No wonder they feel so aggrieved.

我会觉得深受伤害。

Like, I would feel deeply wounded as well.

我会想：等等，先别急。

I'd be like, well, hang on a second.

你知道，为什么我爸爸可以拥有这个？

You know, why can my dad have this?

为什么我爷爷可以拥有这个？

Why can my granddad have this?

为什么所有那些代代相传、肩负文明重担的人都可以，而我却被告知必须由一位酷儿、跨性别、有色人种的女性主义者来当我的老板？

Why can all of them going back, you know, shouldering the burden of civilization all the way through history, but I get told I have to have a queer trans brown feminist HR lady as my boss.

为什么非得我来当受压制的那个人？

Why do I have to be the guy under the thumb?

这真是个非常好的问题。

And that's a really great question.

你的麦克风开着吗？

You got your mic on?

这公平吗？

Is it fair?

不公平。

No.

这公平。

It's fair.

这公平。

It's fair.

你有时候有这种感觉吗？

Do you feel like that sometimes?

就像

Like

我能够对过去、对历史产生同情和理解。

I I like I can I can have sympathy and understanding for the for the past, the history?

但感觉我们已经走得太远了。

But it feels like we've come so far the other way.

我们正在朝着完全相反的方向创造新的历史。

We're creating new history in the exact opposite direction.

我们这也正是计划的一部分。

We that's in the exact plan as well.

嗯，我们观看了

Well, we watched

九十年代中期这个话题在节目中反复提起有点重复，但我还是提了，因为我跟康纳聊过。

mid nineties as bit of a repetitive thing to bring up in the show, but I do because I brought up with Connor.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他说，你长大的时候看起来真的很酷。

And he said, it looked really cool when you grew up.

确实如此。

And it was.

太棒了。

It was amazing.

那是星期五，放学了。

It was Friday, finished school.

就这样。

That was it.

拿起我们的滑板。

Grab our skateboards.

嗯。

Yep.

去了Lurk街的停车场。

Went to Lurk Street car park.

我们会滑两个小时的滑板。

We would skateboard for two hours.

车里放着Greendale之类的音乐。

Greendale or something playing in the car.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我们会去一个叫Squires的俱乐部。

We'd go to this club called the Squires.

嗯。

Yeah.

那里会举办朋克滑板之夜。

And they would have like a punk skateboard night.

我们都会聚在一起。

We'd all hang out.

嗯。

Yeah.

然后就会喝酒，做些别的，嗯。

And it would, you know, get drunk and whatever and Yeah.

然后回家。

And go home.

然后到了周六你就起床。

And then you get up on Saturday.

嗯。

Yeah.

你们约几点碰头？

What time are you meeting up?

你得准时到，因为那时候没人有手机。

You had to be on time because nobody had a mobile phone.

没错。

Yep.

然后你一整天都玩滑板，之后又重复一遍。

And you skateboard all day, and then the same again.

那真的太棒了。

And it it was great.

而且我们知道，一年后我们就会上大学。

And also, we all knew a year later, we're going to university.

嗯。

Mhmm.

大学实际上仍然有某种意义，尽管它的吸引力在减弱。

University actually still kind of meant something, although it was losing steam.

是的。

Yeah.

但我的意思是，托尼·布莱尔打开了大学的大门，所以大学变得不那么酷、不那么重要了。

But I mean, Tony Blair opened the gates to university, so it became far less cool and important.

是的。

Yeah.

我是最后一批能享受到

I was in the last year that got

免费教育的一届。

it free.

我是没享受到

I was in the year that didn't get

免费的。

it free.

我没读完。

I didn't finish.

我在大三时退学了。

I quit in my third year.

其实我在大二时就退学了。

I I quit in my second, actually.

是啊。

Yeah.

这太扯了。

That's bullshit.

只有当我长大后，我才回去继续学习。

It's only when I was an adult, I went back to do.

因为你知道自己真正想学什么。

Because you know what you actually wanna study.

我知道自己真正想要的是什么。

I knew what I actually wanted.

我学了计算机科学，但我讨厌它。

I did computer science, and I hated it.

我是我认识的唯一一个第一年完全没出问题就通过的人。

I was the only person I knew that passed the first year with no problems at all.

我所有的朋友都得重修，而我只是觉得，这太无聊了。

All my friends had to take retakes, I was just like, oh, this is boring.

你看，我选了一门像米老鼠那样的音乐课程。

See, I did I did one of those Mickey Mouse courses of music.

我想进入音乐行业。

I wanted to work in the music industry.

我办了一份粉丝杂志。

I had a fanzine.

你在音乐会上能看到，去采访乐队。

You see it at concerts, interview bands.

我记得在学校图书馆里有一台电脑，我当时就想，这玩意儿真有意思。

And I was like, there was like I remember at school in the library, there was this computer.

你得填一张表。

You filled in this form.

它会告诉你该选什么课程，然后就推荐了音乐产业管理这个专业。

It told you what course to do, and it brought up this music industry management.

于是我去了海威克姆，学了这个专业。

So I went to High Wickham, studied that.

这完全是胡扯。

It was absolute nonsense.

你还不如直接去找份工作。

You should just get a job.

直接去唱片公司就行了。

Just go to a record company.

去吧。

Do it.

嗯。

Yeah.

去一家唱片公司，说：我愿意为你们免费工作。

Go to a record company and say, I will work for you for free.

比如，我每天都来上班。

Like, I will turn up every day.

我免费干活。

I'll work for free.

你会欠更少的债，也会积累更多经验。

You you will you will get less debt, you'll have you'll have more experience.

这可能已经被禁止了。

It's probably been outlawed.

大概吧。

Probably.

那样做可能违法了。

It's probably illegal to do that.

实际上，我认为现在提供无偿实习工作是违法的。

Actually, work I think it is illegal to do work unpaid work experience now.

是吗？

Is it?

我觉得是的。

I think so.

我一点都不感到惊讶。

I wouldn't be shocked.

我觉得是的。

Like I think so.

超过一定时间后。

Over a certain period of time.

但无论如何，你可以免费工作一年，那样你会非常有竞争力。

But anyway, yeah, you could offer yourself a free for a year, and you'll be highly employable.

是的。

Yeah.

这实际上比上大学还要好。

And that would literally be better than going to university.

好太多了，但你知道，我辞职了。

Infinitely better, but, you know, I I quit.

但当时我确实处于那种情况。

But we but I I was under that.

我辞职的唯一主要原因是我开始建网站，第三年时我接到一份合同，每周收入一千英镑。

And the only the main reason I quit, I started building websites, and I got offered a contract in my third year getting paid a thousand pound a week.

哇。

Wow.

我的意思是，卡尔，你为什么不接受呢？

This I mean, Carl, this is Why wouldn't you take it?

那是二十九年前的事了。

It's twenty nine years ago.

是的。

Yeah.

我二十年前没拿到每周一千英镑。

I didn't get a thousand pound a week twenty

二十九年前。

nine years ago.

不。

No.

不是二十九年前。

Not not twenty nine years ago.

等等，我先说一下。

I was hold on.

二十七年前。

Twenty seven years ago.

对。

Yeah.

每周一千英镑。

A thousand pound a week.

这太惊人了。

That's amazing.

有些人从未，当然，我不会回去，我的意思是，我跟我爸爸说，爸，我不会回去了。

Some people never I was, of course, I'm not going back to I mean, I told my dad, I was like, dad, I'm not going back.

他确实如此，但重点是，嗯，是的。

He was but the point is, it's like Yeah.

我在互联网兴起时就这么做了。

I did that with the birth of the Internet.

我知道我能找到

I knew I could get

一份工作。

a job.

你到底在描述什么？

What what are

你在这里描述的是什么？

you describing here?

我描述的是希望和机遇。

I'm I'm describing hope and opportunity.

但你描述的是一片前沿。

But you're describing a frontier.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

有一片前沿，年轻人可以去探索、去征服，从中赚钱、积累经验。

There's a frontier that you can go and explore and conquer as a young man, and you can make money off that you can get experience out of it.

你有一个地方，可以去开垦出一条道路。

You could you've got somewhere that you've, you know, you can carve a furrow.

但现在的年轻人是否得到了这样的机会？

But are young men being given the opportunity now?

没有。

No.

不。

No.

绝对不。

Absolutely not.

他们被告诉要停止做事。

They're being told stop doing things.

你正在制造混乱，因为我们已经为其他人安排好了探索他们自己边疆的机会，而这一切都是以你的牺牲为代价的。

You're causing you're upsetting the apple cup because we've got this all set out for other people who get to explore their own frontier now, and it's at your expense.

所以问题来了，这确实是那个我们不愿提出的核心问题。

And so the the question is, and this this really is, like, the the question that underpins all of this that we're not prepared to ask.

为什么社会上的任何群体都应该优先于我们的直白男性？

It's like, why should any group in society come before our straight white men?

为什么女性应该担任首席执行官？

Why should women have CEO jobs?

为什么跨性别者应该拥有，比如特殊的

Why should trans people have, like, special

嗯，任何人都不应该，一切都应该是精英统治。

Well, nobody should everything should be a meritocracy.

那该由谁来决定呢？

Well, hang should it?

是的。

Yeah.

不，我们不行。

We No.

好好想想。

Well Think about it.

等等，想一想。

Think think hang on.

自从二战以来，我们就一直坚守这条底线，而现在我们却面临一场本质上是厌男者的革命。

We have we have held that line since World War two, and now we're looking at what is basically an incel revolution.

不。

No.

但你是在谈论反向的多元化、公平与包容吗？

But you're talking about reverse DEI?

不。

No.

我所说的是，在一个满是白人的社会中，直白年轻男性应有的恰当位置是什么？

What I'm talking about is what is the appropriate position for straight white young men in a society full of white people?

答案是让他们进入好工作，成为负责任的公民，承担起世界的重担，最终结婚生子，以延续下一代。

And the answer is for them to be hired into good jobs, so they become responsible citizens, so they take the weight of the world on their shoulders, and so they end up getting married and having children so there can be another generation.

这实际上才是他们应得的。

That's actually what they're entitled to.

他们拥有这种权利，就像你曾经拥有过，就像你的父亲曾经拥有过，追溯到远古时代也是如此。

They have an entitlement to this in the way you had an entitlement to it, in the way your father had an entitlement to it, going back into the mists of prehistory.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们通过优绩主义神话告诉他们的。

That's what we are telling them through the myth of meritocracy.

他们不被允许。

They are not allowed.

而我们所做的，是赋予了所有这些其他身份群体特权，并说：但这些人可以拥有它。

And what we have done is privileged all of these other identity groups and said, but these people can have it.

等等。

And it's like, Hang on.

当然。

Sure.

好吧。

And it's like, okay.

嗯，好吧。

Well, okay.

当这些人拥有这些时，会发生什么？

What happens when these people have that?

实际上，他们并没有像以前的男人那样，去赚取大量资源，然后将它们重新分配给周围所有人。

Well, actually, they haven't done what men used to do, which is actually earn a load of resources and then redistribute them to everyone around them.

我不知道你怎么样，但我花在妻子和家人身上的钱远多于花在自己身上的。

So I don't know about you, but I spend way more on my wife and family than I spend on myself.

多得多。

Way more.

我认识的每一个丈夫和父亲，我认识不少，都是 exactly the same。

I I I know every husband and father I know, and I know quite a few is exactly the same.

并不是说你什么都不买，你知道，你还是会买些小玩具，比如你的车或者其他什么。

It's not that you go without, you know, you get the little toys that you want, you know, your car or whatever it is.

你会买自己的东西，但你知道，你绝大部分的开销都是花在别人身上的。

You get your things, but you know the vast bulk of your spending is on other people.

那么，女权主义的首席执行官们也是如此吗？

Well, is that true of feminist CEOs?

这些其他群体也是如此吗？

Is that true of all of these other communities?

其实并不是。

Not really.

你是说，每家餐厅我带你去，你都付账。

You're saying every restaurant I get you go into, you get the bill.

当然，我付。

Of course, I do.

就是这样。

That's it.

对。

Yeah.

当然，我付。

Of course, I do.

但这是所有事情。

But it's it's it's everything.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

而这就是直白白人生命的终极目标和轨迹：努力工作，为他人提供保障。

And this this was the the telos, the the the the trajectory of the life of the straight white man, is to be is to work hard and provide for others.

随之而来的，是成为家庭户主的荣誉地位。

And with it came the position of honor of being the head of your household.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们现在对年轻男性说：你们得不到这些了。

And we are saying to young men, you are not having that.

他们说：好吧，我们其实想要这些。

And they're like, okay, well, look, we would like that.

但我们告诉他们：不行。

And we've said we've told them no.

我们告诉他们，这是厌女的。

We've told them that's misogynist.

我们告诉他们，这是种族主义的。

We've told them they're racist.

我们告诉他们，这些都是世间所有坏东西。

We've told them they're all bad things under the sun.

突然间，他们回来 saying，好吧，我们现在成了希特勒。

And suddenly, they're coming back and saying, right, we're Hitler now.

就像说，好吧。

It's like, okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

我想我们可能确实这样对待他们了。

I think we may have done that to them.

但我完全同意你的观点，只是现在职场和大学毕业生面临的挑战，已经不只是年轻白人男孩了。

But but the the I'm I'm with you all the way, but the challenge of the workplace now, the college coming out in the workplace, it isn't just young white lads now.

而是任何年轻男孩。

It's any young lad.

确实是。

It is.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为我们将看到这种现象遍及整个世代。

And I think I think we're going to see that across the whole generation.

确实如此，但请注意，你现在试图淡化这个问题。

We are, but notice how now you've tried to diffuse the issue.

不。

No.

因为我这么说的原因是，我认为这两者可以同时成立。

Because the the reason I'm saying that is is that I I think both can be true.

我不是说它们不成立。

I I'm not saying they're not.

嗯。

Yeah.

两者可以同时成立。

Both can be true.

等一下。

Hang on.

很多很多事情都是真的，但事实上，那些非白人男孩有自己的社群，非白人社群。

Many many things are true, but actually, those non white lads have their own communities, non white communities.

那不是我们的社群。

That's not our community.

对吧？

Right?

我们必须关注我们自己的人。

We have to focus on our ones.

我们实际上并不拥有这些男孩的归属权。

We haven't actually got a claim to these lads.

我们确实对我们自己的男孩有归属权，所以我们必须专注于这一点。

We do have a claim to our own lads, and so we have to focus on this.

我们越试图模棱两可地说，哦，这也是这些人，那他们就越会听到：‘那跟我没关系。’

And the more we try and equivocate and say, well, it's these people as well as these people, The more they hear, oh, not me then.

因为这实际上关乎承认他们拥有正当的诉求。

Because what this is really about is recognizing the legitimacy that they have a claim.

而当我们试图淡化这一点时，我们真正传达给他们的却并非如此。

And while we try and diffuse this, what we're saying to them is not really, though.

对吧？

Right?

我们必须接受他们本来的样子，作为我们的儿子。

We have to accept them as they are, as our sons.

当然。

Sure.

但我确实很难在黑人青年身上区分这一点。

But but I I I struggle to differentiate there with young black lads as well.

因为当我上学的时候，根本不存在种族主义。

Because when I went to school, there was no racism.

我们所有人都是一样的。

We were all the same.

我们都身处同一条船上。

We're all in the same boat.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们都出去了。

We all went out.

我知道。

And I know

我们找到了工作和事业。

We got jobs and careers.

我只是觉得存在。

And I just think there are

我不是说没错。

I'm not saying Yeah.

你必须，你知道的，忽视他们，不给他们任何机会之类的东西。

You have to, you know, ignore them, that they can't have any opportunities or anything like that.

但我想说的是，当你改变这种关注点时，你是在传递一种信息。

But what I'm saying is when you change this focus, you are sending a message.

他们说希特勒很酷的原因，正是由于这种关注点。

And the reason that they are saying, I think Hitler is cool, is because of the focus.

对吧？

Right?

它就像

The it like

我来代表你这个年龄段的人回答，康纳。

answering for your age group here, Connor.

嗯，我经常和他们交流。

Well, I speak to a lot of them.

是的。

Yeah.

我想知道你怎么想。

I'm wondering what you think.

很有道理。

Makes a lot of sense.

但我的一部分仍然觉得，必须保持文明。

And then part of me is still like, must be civilized.

我必须遵守这条界限。

I must I must tow that line.

对吧？

Right?

我喜欢这一点。

I like that.

我内心的一部分说，我必须保持文明。

A part of me says I must be civilized.

这就像一种内在的机制，正在拖你的后腿。

It's like it's like an inbuilt mechanism which is like holding you back.

对吧？

Right?