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我最近看到埃隆·马斯克的一个采访，他谈到人工智能和超级智能，说我们可能会达到一个完全不需要钱、金钱在我们的世界中不再起作用的阶段。
I saw an interview with Elon Musk recently where he talked about with AI and super intelligence that we may get to a point where we don't need money at all and money doesn't play a role in our world.
自由市场的自然状态是
The natural state of
通货紧缩。
the free market is deflation.
他一定看到了生产力提升带来的影响，那些指数级的生产力增长将导致指数级的通货紧缩。
He must see the productivity gains around which those exponential productivity gains would lead to exponential deflation.
对吧？
Right?
如果你拥有的钱不是通过欺骗得来的。
If you had money that wasn't cheated.
但因为钱是骗来的，我们生活在这个债务为基础的体系中，这个体系本质上必须阻止生产力流向地球上的80亿人，并将财富集中在极少数人手中。
But because money's cheated, we live in that debt based system that has to essentially stop that productivity flowing to 8,000,000,000 people on the planet and concentrate that wealth into very few hands.
而今天的人工智能，是迄今为止它最慢的阶段。
And AI today is the slowest by far it will ever be.
如果你在民主国家有投票权，是一个自由民主制，但你对被窃取的钱财却没有投票权，而这种窃取远超过税收，那么你的投票还有意义吗？
If you have a vote in a democracy, you're a liberal democracy, but you don't have a vote in your money that's stolen from you, and it's it's way more than the taxes, then do you have does your vote matter at all?
本节目由我的主要赞助商Iron提供支持，Iron是面向下一代重大突破的AI云平台。
This show is brought to you by my lead sponsor, Iron, the AI cloud for the next big thing.
Iron构建并运营下一代数据中心，提供全部由可再生能源驱动的尖端GPU基础设施。
Iron builds and operates next generation data centers and delivers cutting edge GPU infrastructure all powered by renewable energy.
如果你需要可扩展的GPU集群，或者只是好奇谁在推动AI的未来，请访问iron.com了解更多信息，也就是iren.com。
Now if you need access to scalable GPU clusters or are simply curious about who is powering the future of AI, check out iron.com to learn more, which is iren.com.
杰夫，你好。
Jeff, hi.
你怎么样？
How are you?
我很好。
I'm great.
你呢？
Yourself?
欢迎来到伦敦。
Welcome to London.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我最近看了一段埃隆·马斯克的采访，他谈到人工智能和超级智能，认为我们可能达到一个不需要金钱、金钱在我们的世界中不再起作用的阶段。
I saw an interview with Elon Musk recently where he talked about with AI and super intelligence that we may get to a point where we don't need money at all and money doesn't play a role in our world.
我正在努力理解从现在到那个状态之间的过渡。
I'm trying to understand the bridge between now and there.
如果我们即将实现惊人的生产力水平，为什么一切仍然会变得更贵？
If we're going to have incredible level levels of productivity, how is everything still gonna be more expensive?
好问题。
Good question.
实际上，这是个非常好的问题。
Actually, really good question.
因为我认为，这一点是我在现有体系中，包括埃隆·马斯克的言论里，都没看到有人以一种连贯方式讨论过的。
Because I think that's the thing that I can't I haven't seen somebody in the existing system, including Elon Musk's, talk about this in a in a cohesive way.
他一定知道自由市场的自然状态是通缩。
And and he must know that the natural state of the free market is deflation.
他一定看到了那些生产力提升，这些指数级的生产力增长本应带来指数级的通缩，前提是货币没有被操纵。
He must see the productivity gains around which those exponential productivity gains would lead to exponential deflation, right, if you had money that wasn't cheated.
但因为货币被操纵了，或者我换种说法。
But because money is cheated, it and or I'll set a different way.
因为我们生活在一个债务体系中，在这个体系里，货币以零成本被借贷出来，因此必须永远创造越来越多的货币。
Because we live in a debt based system that you in a debt based system that lends money into existence with no cost of money, it has to create more and more money forever.
所以，我们对货币本质的认知是扭曲的，因为我们生活在一个债务体系中，这个体系必须阻止生产力的成果流向全球80亿人，而将财富集中到极少数人手中，埃隆就是这极少数人之一。
So your our perception of what money is is broken because we live in that debt based system that has to essentially stop that productivity flowing to 8,000,000,000 people on the planet and concentrate that wealth into very few hands, and Elon is one of those very few hands.
有些人听我新版的节目时，可能还没读过你的书。
Well, some some people listen to my new version of my show might not have read your book.
我鼓励大家去读杰夫的书。
I encourage people to read Jeff's book.
这本书太棒了。
It's incredible.
这可能是向他们解释货币本质、技术为何具有通缩性，以及债务体系如何破坏了本应让我们工作更少、一切更便宜、更快、更好的生活的良好起点。
It's probably a good good starting point to explain to them about this diff the the nature of money and why technology is deflationary and the debt based system breaks what should be a life where we work less and everything's cheaper, faster, and better.
是的。
Yeah.
如果这是你第一次听到这些观点，它会像彼得一样让你震撼。
And this is gonna for if it's the first time you're hearing this, it's going to like you, Peter.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
这将挑战你曾经拥有的每一个思维模型，因为我们可以这样说：自由市场的自然状态是通缩，没错，这确实是真实的，因为企业家必须创造出比之前更多的价值，而我们只使用那些更有价值的东西。
It's going to it it's gonna challenge every mental model you've ever had because we can say if the natural state of the free market is deflation, right, and that is true because entrepreneurs have to create more value than what was there before, and we only use the things that are more valuable.
所以，如果他们没有创造更多价值，就会在市场中失败。
So they fail in the market if they don't create more value.
因此，自由市场是一个完美的体系，它是一场无限的游戏。
So the free market is a perfect system whereby it it's an infinite game.
每个人都赢了。
Everybody wins.
企业家获得了一点收益。
Entrepreneur wins a little bit.
你赢了，而价格因此下降。
You win, and the prices fall as a result.
在这个世界里，价格会降至边际生产成本。
Now in that world, prices fall to the marginal cost of production.
经济学入门课上说，价格会降至边际生产成本。
Economics one zero one, prices fall to the marginal cost of production.
所以，像你的计算器应用这样的代码行，会降到零，因为企业家们竞争得越来越激烈。
So so lines of code, like your calculator app, fall to zero because entrepreneurs compete more and more.
你仍然能从你的计算器应用中获得价值。
You still gain value with your calculator app.
对吧？
Right?
但它是免费的。
But it's free.
现在你必须思考，一行代码如何生成其他代码，这正是人工智能正在走向的方向。
Now you have to ask what is a line of code creating other lines of code, which is where AI is go going.
对吧？
Right?
那也是免费的，而且它提供了这种能力，这就是为什么你会看到生产力呈指数级增长，推动一切走向免费，而这与我们一直生活的债务体系发生冲突——自17世纪以来，货币通过借贷而存在，中央银行以利率将货币注入经济，这个体系必须持续扩张货币。
That's free too, and it provides and and that's why you can see this exponential explosion of productivity driving things to free, conflicting with a debt based system that we've always lived in where essentially since the sixteen hundreds where where money was lent into existence, a central bank lends money into existence with an interest rate, that that system must expand money forever.
根据我刚才说的，你能简单得出什么结论？
And what can you say quite simply from that from what I just said?
这正是我在书中探讨的内容，我说过，明天这两种体系将发生碰撞。
And this is what I explored in in the book, where I said tomorrow, these two systems would clash into each other.
我们会继续相信我们一直生活的体系，并通过我们的行动赋予它更多力量，而这将分裂世界。
We would believe in the system that we've always lived in, and we would give it more strength through our actions, and that would divide the world.
对吧？
Right?
实际上，那就是，你不可能减缓技术的发展。
Effectively, that's the and and you weren't gonna slow down technology.
对吧？
Right?
技术之所以是技术，就是我们从大脑中创造出来、用来解决问题并创造更多价值的东西。
Technology was because technology is is when you say just technology, it's the things out of our brains that we try to solve to create create more value.
这就是自由市场的本质，它本质上是呈指数增长的。
That's what the free market is, and it's exponential in in nature.
我在书中探讨的另一件事是，如果你把一张纸折一次、两次、三次、四次，你最多只能折七次。
And the other thing I explored in my book is if you folded a piece of paper once, twice, three times, four times, you can only fold it seven times.
但如果你能想象一下，如果能折50次，这张纸的厚度就能从这里一直延伸到太阳。
But if if you could imagine, if you could fold it 50 times, that piece of paper were to reach from here to the sun.
你现在知道了这一点，但依然觉得难以置信。
Now you know that, and it still blows your brain.
还是让人震惊
Still blows
我的大脑。
my brain.
是的。
Yeah.
它仍然让你的大脑震惊。
It still blows your brain.
想试试。
Wanna do it.
对。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
你只能折七次。
You can only fold it seven.
但我用这个做类比的原因是，我跟每个人聊的时候，他们都猜两英寸。
But but the and why I use that as an analogy is everyone I talk to guesses two inches.
我第一次想到这个问题时，也猜是两英寸。
And I get guess two inches the first time I thought about that, it would look like.
但指数模式是我们无法理解的。
But an exponential pattern is something we can't grasp.
所以，如果指数模式正在推动自由市场、生产力和通缩，从而加速为我们所有人带来富足，而我们却无法理解指数模式。
So if we have an exponential pattern driving the free market and productivity and deflation that should be speeding abundance to all of us, and we can't understand an exponential pattern.
这意味着我们今天正处在折叠的深层阶段。
It means it means we're in the thick folds today.
对吧？
Right?
第三折是36，现在正迈向第37折。
Third fold 36 moving to fold fold 37.
为什么人工智能在很长一段时间里看起来毫无存在感，然后却突然变得无处不在？
Why AI seems like nothing for a long time, and then it seems like everything.
我们正处于这张纸折叠的陡峭阶段。
We're in the we're in the steep steps of that paper folding.
而今天的AI是它有史以来最慢的阶段。
And and AI today is the slowest by far it will ever be.
这意味着由AI驱动的生产力本应为你服务。
And that means that productivity driven from it should serve you.
但在一个以债务为基础的体系中，这是不可能的。
But in a debt based system, it can't.
在一个以债务为基础的体系中，没有人能解开这个谜题。
In a debt based system and there is nobody in that debt based system that can solve that riddle.
对吧？
Right?
没有哪个政客能做到。
There's no politician.
没有一个人，没有任何个人能做到。
There's no there's no single there's no person.
这是一个系统性问题，而我们就是这个系统。
It's a system problem, and we are the system.
所以这就是我在书中探讨的内容，你今天就可以读这本书，它是在七年前写成的。
So that's what I that that's what I explored in the book, and and so you could read the book today, and you could it was written seven years ago.
你可以看出来。
You could see right.
这就像是你拥有了一个时间机器，因为你能够看到未来，而它的前提非常简单，就是一种正在推动人类社会的结构性变革，但大多数人会选择站在旧系统的立场上，把责任归咎于旧系统中的其他人，因为他们不愿意承担自己的责任。
It's like you had a you had it's like you had a time machine because you could see the future, and it was a very, very simple premise about a structural change that was driving into humanity that most people would take a side in the old system and blame somebody else within the old system because they didn't wanna take responsibility themselves.
所以某种程度上，AI是不是正在更明显地暴露这种冲突？因为我们似乎正朝着这种奇点前进——当埃隆谈到机器人能够制造出拥有超级智能的机器人时，我们会到达一个点：地球上80亿人将没有足够的工作，但我们仍然要偿还债务。
So in some ways, is AI exposing this conflict even more in that we seem to be heading towards this kind of singularity, this you know, when Elon talks about robots being able to create robots built with superintelligence, we get to a point where there won't be enough work for the 8,000,000,000 people on the planet, yet we're still gonna have the debt to service.
因此，这种丰裕的指数级增长与债务的指数级增长之间，必将发生冲突。
So this kind of exponential growth of abundance versus exponential growth of debt, and there's gonna be a clash.
这种冲突其实早就已经存在了。
There there all there has been already is.
这种冲突已经存在很久了。
There has been for a long time.
我们正身处这场冲突之中，而人们却用旧系统的标准来衡量这场冲突，这就是正在发生的事。
We're living through that clash, and people are measuring that clash through the old system is what's what's happening.
所以，债务早就已经资不抵债了。
So so the debt's been insolvent for a long time.
债务实际上可能从一开始就资不抵债了，因为如果你让自由市场正常运作，生产力流向人民，债务会立即崩溃。
The debt's been insolvent for, actually, probably forever because if you allowed the free market to work, productivity flowing to the people, the debt would have collapsed immediately.
对吧？
Right?
因为通缩在债务偿还体系中是不能被允许的。
Because because because deflation cannot be allowed in in a debt pay system.
所以人们把这两件事混为一谈。
So people conflate those two things.
经济学家也把这两件事混为一谈。
Economists conflate those two things.
他们说通缩不好，却从不说明这是针对债务体系而言的。
They say inflation deflation's bad without saying from a debt based system.
为什么生产力自然流向你，让你工作更少却获得更多，永远如此——因为你被地球上80亿人的竞争所服务，你得到的越来越多，永无止境？
Why would why would productivity flowing to you naturally so you had to work less and gain more forever, where you where where you got more and more forever and ever by the competition of 8,000,000,000 people on the planet in service to you.
这怎么会是坏事呢？
How could that be bad?
对吧？
Right?
从一个不允许这种情况的系统来看，这才是坏事。
It's bad from a system that won't allow that.
这对债务来说是坏事。
It's bad for debt.
因为债务会爆炸。
It's because the debt blows up.
所以这两件事几乎是相反的。
And so these two things are almost inverse images.
对吧？
Right?
一个是试图压低价格，而过去很多属于GDP组成部分的东西，比如你的计算器应用，它们曾经从中获得价值。
One is trying to drive pricing down, and and a lot of the things that used to be in GDP, like your calculator app, like a whole they used to gain value from them.
现在你必须把其他东西的价格定得更高，以确保所有价格都从这个系统中上涨。
Now you have to price other things higher to make sure all prices go up from this other system.
你需要从一个以债务为基础的系统中制造稀缺性。
You have to create scarcity from a debt based system.
而且请记住，根本不存在2%的通胀，这个系统本应是通缩的。
And to to and and remember, it's there is no such thing as 2% inflation or, this system should be deflationary.
这个系统本应如此，如果你抛开这些荒谬的东西，仅衡量生产率，今天的通缩率可能在5%到10%之间。
The system should be so today's deflation rate, if you measured productivity without all of this nonsense, is probably between 510%.
这意味着，如果你在这一点上再叠加通胀，每年就有这么多钱被从你身上窃取。
Meaning, if you have inflation on top of that, that's how much is being stolen from you per year.
问问看，这些被窃取的钱都流向了哪里？
Ask where does that where does it where does that stolen money go?
全都流向了资产。
Just to the assets.
是的。
Yeah.
不只是流向资产。
Not just to the assets.
你为什么觉得爱泼斯坦看起来像爱泼斯坦？
Why do you think Epstein looks like Epstein?
对吧？
Right?
你为什么认为全球整个政治阶层和整个系统仍然保持这种样子？
Why do you think the whole political class everywhere isn't and every all the entire system is still look looks like that.
那些钱是从哪里来的？
Where does that money come from?
这个系统必须保持这种样子，因为所有钱都是从你那里偷走的。
That system has to look like that because it's all that money is stolen from you.
对吧？
Right?
这些钱是从地球上80亿人那里偷走的，然后转移到一个必须越来越像这样的体系中。
It's stolen from 8,000,000,000 people on the planet and transferred into a bunch into a SIOP that has to look increasingly like that.
而在那个SIOP中，你必须控制人们，让他们留在那个体系里。
And when then that in that SIOP, you have to control people to hold them in that SIOP.
我认为在我们之前的对话中，我们还没有达到这个层面，你现在把像Epstein这样的事情和这个联系起来了。
I don't think we've got to that level, you and I, in these conversations before where now you're connecting the something like Epstein to this.
是的，我们确实没有，因为我一直想走高尚的道路。
It so so we we haven't because I always wanted to take the high road.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以我就只是，我只是但
And and so I just I just But
他们不再隐藏了。
they're not hiding it anymore.
那么，我打赌现在正在看你的节目的每个人，都会觉得这很难理解。
Well, so so I'll bet you just about everybody that's watching your show right now, this will feel really hard to understand.
尽管这是最简单的事情，对吧？自由市场的自然状态是通缩。
Even though it's the most simple thing, right, Natural state of the free market is deflation.
如果你无法反驳这一点，对吧？如果你深入探究，回到根本，知道这是真的，那就意味着你从未真正生活在自由市场中，却以为自己生活其中。
If you can't dis disprove that, right, if you look into that and and go down to the sand and you know that's true, it means you've never lived in a free market, but you believe you do.
这是不是因为政府控制了数字货币才导致的问题？
If if is it so is this a problem of having digital money controlled by governments?
数字货币
Digital
任何受控的货币
any money controlled
如果是自由市场来决定货币，这种情况会发生吗？
by free market for money, would this happen?
所以，不，这个过程会很混乱，但如果你看看黄金，对吧？黄金本身是集中的，然后政府改变黄金，使得其上的衍生工具仍然可以维持通胀。
So, no, it would it'd be messy on the way through, but but but any so if you look at gold, right, gold centralizes, and then then governments change gold so that the derivative instrument on top can still can still allow inflation.
对吧？
Right?
所以黄金一直都在做同样的事情。
So so gold has always done the same thing.
然后当它崩溃时，通常会引发全球冲突和战争。
And then when it breaks, there's typically global conflict, wars.
回去说，我们再也不会那样做了，然后重新开始。
Go back to say, we're never gonna do that again and start it again.
对吧？
Right?
如果你相信自由市场的自然状态是通缩，那就必须从世界上最简单的事情开始，花点时间去理解它。
You just have to start the most simple thing in the world if the natural state of the free market is deflation and spend some time with it.
对吧？
Right?
真正花点时间去深入理解它。
Really spend some time with it.
然后你就会意识到，你从未真正生活在这样的环境中，其他所有事情都会变得清晰起来。
Then then you have to realize you've never lived in one, And all of these other things come into focus.
它们出现时就必须是那个样子。
They come into it has to look like that.
不是说你那里有坏人。
Not and you you there's bad people.
但我试着去想，如果我身处那场斗争中，认为是这个领袖或那个领袖的问题，而他们仍在使用同样的货币，我该如何解决？
But I try to go thinking, if I'm if I'm inside that fight, thinking it's this leader or this leader or this leader, and they're still on that same money, how could I solve it?
任何人都能解决吗？
How could anyone solve it?
本集由Ledger赞助播出，Ledger是最值得信赖的比特币硬件钱包。
This episode is brought to you by Ledger, the most trusted Bitcoin hardware wallet.
如果你认真对待比特币的保护，Ledger就能提供你需要的解决方案。
Now if you're serious about protecting your Bitcoin, Ledger has the solution you need.
他们的硬件钱包让你完全掌控私钥，确保你的比特币免受黑客、钓鱼和恶意软件的侵害。
Their hardware wallet gives you complete control over your private keys, ensuring that your Bitcoin stay safe from hacks, phishing, and malware.
我自2017年以来就是他们的客户。
And I've been a customer of theirs since 2017.
很喜欢这个产品。
Love the product.
我用它来管理我的比特币。
Use it for my Bitcoin.
我还用它配合我的Castle多重签名系统来保护足球俱乐部的比特币。
I use it with my Castle MultiSig for protecting the football club Bitcoin too.
现在，借助Ledger时尚易用的设备和Ledger Live应用，管理你的比特币从未如此安全便捷。
Now with Ledger's sleek, easy to use devices and the Ledger Live app, managing your Bitcoin has never been more secure or convenient.
无论你是比特币的老用户还是新手，Ledger都能让你轻松保护资产。
And whether you're a long time holder or new to the world of Bitcoin, Ledger makes it simple to keep your assets protected.
如果你想了解更多，请访问ledger.com，立即保护你的比特币。
So if you wanna find out more, please do head over to ledger.com and secure your Bitcoin today.
那就是ledger.com，也就是ledger.com。
That is ledger.com, which is ledger.com.
那就是ledger.com。
That is ledger.com.
我昨天听了《All In》播客，他们谈到了一些相当吓人的数字。
I was listening to the All In podcast yesterday, and they were talking about some quite scary numbers.
社会保障基金将在2032年耗尽，债务每年平均增加2.5万亿美元，直到2030年，他们四个人都在说，这个系统已经开始崩溃了。
Social Security running out by twenty thirty two, the the increase in the average increase in the debt of 2,500,000,000,000.0 a year per year until 2030, and all of them, all four of them are talking about, this is starting to break.
是的。
Yeah.
但杰夫，这种感觉已经持续很久了。
But it felt like that for a long time, Jeff.
如果你看一下，我们稍后会谈到比特币。
It it's so if you look at and we'll get into Bitcoin in a second.
但如果你把比特币看作一个由能源界定的去中心化安全协议，你就能明白它正在衡量我刚才描述的情况。
But if you look at Bitcoin, just bounded by energy as decentralized secure protocol bounded by energy, then you can see it's measuring what I just described.
只要它保持去中心化和安全，它就在衡量价格持续下跌。
As long as it stays decentralized and secure, it's measuring prices falling forever.
虽然比特币价格会有波动，但那些持反对意见的人所提到的2.5万亿、8万亿，还有疫情应对措施，都只是说明了另一件事：必须有更多东西、更多恐惧、更多胁迫和控制，以及更多监控，才能把你留在这个系统里，因为这并不自然。
Now it'll be volatile, but all of the people arguing from the other side, 2 and a half trillion, 8,000,000,000,000, COVID response, It's just another there has to be more things, more fear, coercion, control to keep you more more surveillance to keep you in that system because it's not natural.
自由市场的自然状态是通缩。
The natural state of the free market is deflation.
我们彼此服务。
We serve each other.
对吧？
Right?
但你真的认同吗？你觉得他们总是知道该怎么做，还是说他们的反应只是尽力平衡账目时的自然回应？
Do you with that though, do you think they do you think they always know, or do you think their responses are natural responses to them trying to make balance the books as best they can?
所以，我们重新开始，从这两件事的第一性原理出发。
So so if you start again, start with the first principles of those two things.
债务驱动的体系无法容忍通缩。
So debt based system can't allow deflation.
自由市场的自然状态是通缩。
Natural state of the free market is deflation.
这两者根本不可能共存。
They're they can never go together.
它们是相反的系统。
They're opposite systems.
所以这个系统无法平衡账目。
So this that system can't balance the books.
不。
No.
但他们试图维持这个系统运转。
But they try and keep that system going.
嗯，他们尽其所能吧。
Well, they're, like, as best they can.
换句话说，就是从你那里多偷一点。
In other words in other words, steal more from you.
是的。
Yes.
雇更多的人，做更多事情来从你那里多偷一点。
Hire more people, more things to steal more from you.
更少的权利，更高的税收
Less less rights, higher taxes
通货膨胀是怎么发生的？
How do inflation.
你怎么让这种做法让民众接受？
How do you how do you make that palatable for a population?
这是这个等式的两个方面。
It's two sides of that equation.
你必须制造我们对抗他们。
What you have to create us versus them.
这一方必须是对的，对抗另一方。
This side has to be right against the other side.
一方转向社会主义，因为那一方关注所有没有资产的人，他们想要分一杯羹。
One side one side moves to socialism because because that that side it is looking at all of the people who don't have assets, and they want a piece of the pie.
于是他们投票给那些承诺无偿给予他们金钱的人，这种现象不断扩张。
So they vote for those people that will promise them free money for nothing, and it expands.
一边转向法西斯主义，只是为了假装自己处在自由市场中。
One one side moves to fascism to be able to to pretend they were in a free market.
对吧？
Right?
但这根本不是自由市场。
But it's not a free market.
所以这在两方面都分裂了社会，而且这种情况一直都在发生。
And so and that divides society on both and it's always happened.
只是你知道，我们不断重复这个系统，发动战争，然后重新开始。
It just you know, we we replay the system, and we go to war, and then we we start again.
但你认为这有多少是自发的，又有多少是人为策划的？
But how much do you think it's organic, and how much do you think it's planned?
根本不存在什么‘他们’。
There is no they.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么我从系统层面开始。
That's that's why I start from a system system level.
系统层面。
System level.
现在有一些人会发现，如果你有一个基于盗窃的系统，而我们知道这个系统确实基于盗窃，是的。
It's a now there are people who will find if you had a system based on theft, and we know that system is based on theft Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
这是一个严厉的词，因为大多数人并不知道这一点。
Now that's a hard harsh word because most people don't know that.
但如果你有一个基于盗窃的系统，你如何从这样一个必须不断加剧盗窃的系统中解决世界上的冲突？因为自由市场的自然状态恰恰相反。
But if you had a system based on theft, how could you resolve the conflicts in the world from a system based on theft that had to worse, that had to increasingly increase the amount of theft because the natural state of the free market is opposite?
所以，这个系统从根本上无法修复，或者你可以换种说法。
So so it's un it's unfixable from a system for or you could say it a different way.
我们如今所处的技术环境，以及技术发展的速度，决定了一个以债务为基础的货币体系，如果不将所有权力集中在极少数人手中、由他们决定你能得到什么，就无法继续运作。
Where we are in with technology, where we are with how fast technology is moving, a debt based a debt based monetary system cannot work without concentrating all power and very few people who tell you what you get.
好的。
K.
那这些人是谁？
And who are those?
我之前请过西蒙·迪克森来，他告诉我，资产管理者掌控着世界。
I had Simon Dixon in here, and he he told me that the asset managers run the world.
是的。
Yeah.
我其实挺喜欢西蒙。
And and I actually like Simon.
我真的很欣赏西蒙的观点，不过我们是从不同的角度来看待这个问题的。
I really like Simon's stuff, and and so but we look at it from different different paths.
我担心制造另一个‘他们’，反而削弱了我们自己采取行动的能力。
I that fear of creating another they removes our own ability to do something about it.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Right.
而这就是系统希望你去做的。
And and so and and that's what that's what the system will will want you to do.
这里有一种方法，我不知道。
Here here's a way to I don't know.
我们跳过这个问题，直接看你的下一个问题吧。
Let's let's go to your next question instead of the question.
那么，我的意思是，你提到这种恐惧系统终将崩溃，这是不可避免的吗？
Well, so, I mean, is there an you talk about there's an inevitability that this fear system will collapse.
这并不自然。
It it it it's not natural.
这并不自然。
It's not natural.
但是，当它会崩溃呢？我们怎么知道它崩溃了？
But when, yeah, when does it collapse, and how will we know it?
我的意思是，我们知道它正在崩溃。
I mean, we know it's collapsing.
它一直都在崩溃吗？
Is it always collapsed?
还是说，真的存在一次崩溃？
Or is there a is is there a collapse?
有没有那么一个时刻，你会想：好吧。
Is there a moment where you're like, okay.
但这样挺好。
But this is good.
我们结束了。
We're done.
所以，再次说，当我们站起来并让它崩溃时，它就崩溃了。
So so, again, it collapses when we stand up and make it collapse.
通常，当我们站起来并让它崩溃时，是因为我们失去了对这个系统的信任，因为它从我们身上榨取了太多，以至于我们无法承受，而这正是为什么这个系统通常会倒退回原状，因为我们发动战争时以为能找到解决办法。
Typically, when we stand up and make it collapse is when we lose trust in that system because it extracts so much from us that we can't and and and that's why it typically, that system reverts back to the same system and because we go to war thinking that there's a resolve.
它会重置。
It resets.
然后是一战、二战，同样的事情在时间中不断重置。
And then World War one, World War two, same thing resets through time.
接着我们建造宏伟的纪念碑，宣称我们再也不会伤害他人，建立的制度却最终沦为系统性掠夺的合法化工具。
And then and then we build nice monuments to say we'll never hurt people again, build institutions that end up driving essentially enshrining theft.
所有这些制度都是导致下一次崩溃的组成部分。
And all of those institutions are part of the next thing that makes it collapse.
当人们开始看清这一点时，他们就会意识到——现在观看你节目的人，如果从最根本的原则出发，不可能看不到这一点。
And when people start to see it, they start to there there's probably no one watching your show right now that when if they just looked at that from our first principles, can't see it in them.
他们很愤怒。
They're mad.
他们很焦虑。
They're anxious.
他们很恐惧。
They're fearful.
但最终发生的是，如果你把责任推给他人，而不是你自己，人们就会轻易相信任何说法，因为你希望相信那是别人的问题。
But but what ends up happening is if if you put in, it's not you, it's this person, right, you can get people to bite on anything because you want to believe it's somebody else.
记住，你会允许一个以债务为基础的货币体系吗？这个体系包括这个录音棚、楼下所有的餐厅、整个世界、每一个银行系统——你会允许这个体系允许通缩吗？
Just remember, would you would you allow a monetary system based on debt, which is this studio, all the restaurants downstairs, the entire world, every banking system, would you allow that from that system to allow deflation?
你不会允许的。
And you wouldn't.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们来结束这个播客吧。
So so we'll finish this podcast.
你会在这个体系里花钱，却认为那是别人的问题。
You'll go spend money in that system and think it's somebody else.
对吧？
Right?
而真正需要退出的，是我们自己——因为我们身处这个体系之中，而这个体系本身无法自我解决。
And and it's us inside that system that that we have to opt out because there is no resolve from that system.
但我们越陷越深，就会越生气。
But but the more we're in this, the more mad we'll get.
对吧？
Right?
我越是要去解决它。
The more the more I'm going to solve it.
对吧？
Right?
一大群人会这么想，你是那个好人，别人是坏人，因为他们宁愿相信问题不在自己身上。
Whole bunch of people will, yeah, you're the guy and the other person's a bad guy because they'll wanna believe it's not them.
所以除非我们有，我的意思是，目前英国状况并不好。
So unless we have I mean, at the moment, The UK is not in good shape.
世界上哪里的状态是好的？
Where in the world is in good shape?
瑞士看起来还不错。
Switzerland seems okay.
某些人过得还不错。
And certain individuals are doing okay.
是的。
Yeah.
某些公司也过得不错。
And certain companies are doing okay.
我过得还不错，杰夫。
I'm doing okay Jeff.
但我已经像你一样选择退出了，我们要去投资比特币。
But I've kind of opted out like you, we're gonna get into Bitcoin.
但我们总能看到这些不断的争斗。
But we see these constant fights.
我们从一场选举跳到另一场选举，从一场生存危机跳到另一场生存危机。
We move from election to election, this existential crisis to existential crisis.
如果民主党赢得美国下一次选举，这对美国来说将是一场生存危机。
If the Dems win the next election in The US, it's gonna be an existential crisis for America.
如果JD·万斯赢了，这将是一场生存危机。
JD Vance wins, it's gonna existential crisis.
在英国，工党目前领先。
Here in The UK, I mean, the Labour Party are up.
他们将从拥有议会多数席位转变为...
They're gonna go from having a parliamentary majority.
他们预计在下一次选举中只获得四个席位。
They're predicted to get four seats in the next election.
我的意思是，这前所未有。
I mean, that is unprecedented.
保守党预计将成为第四大政党。
The Conservative Party are predicted to be the fourth biggest party.
改革党一直领先于民调。
Reform have been leading the polls.
几年前，他们还不存在。
They didn't exist a few years ago.
鲁珀特·洛上周宣布他已经成立了自己的政党。
Rupert Low announced yesterday that he's going to well, he's launched his party.
他目前的民调支持率已经达到10%。
He's already polling at 10%.
我认为每个人都意识到出了问题。
I think everyone knows something is wrong.
人们正在寻找答案，这就是为什么这些新政党能够迅速出现并壮大。
They're looking for an answer, which is why these new parties appear and grow really quickly.
但除非其中某个政党明确指出问题所在并提出解决方案，否则什么问题都得不到解决。
But unless one of those comes out and says this is the problem and this is how we solve it, nothing's gets solved.
正是如此。
That's exactly it.
所以每一位选民都应该问自己的政治家：自由市场的自然状态是通缩吗？
So you should every single voter should ask should ask their politicians, is the natural state of the free market deflation?
这是唯一该问他们的问题。
It's the only question to ask them.
唯一的问题。
Only question.
如果他们无法回答这个问题，如果他们说‘是的’，那就问他们：你打算如何解决这个问题？
And if they can't answer that, and if they say, yeah, or if they say yes, then ask them how are you going to resolve this?
你打算怎么做来解决这个问题？
What are you going to do to resolve this?
因为如果观看你节目的人们不断回望、再回望、再回望，看到事情越来越糟，他们的生活日益艰难，而他们却越来越依赖那个正在更快掠夺他们能量的系统，他们就会意识到，这次选举也不会有任何改变。
Because if if if the people watching your show look backwards and backwards again and backwards again, as things have gotten worse and worse and worse, their lives it's and and they're they're leaning in and giving more strength to the system that's stealing their energy faster and faster, they'll realize that this election too won't make any difference.
一个建立在掠夺基础上的系统，必须不断制造更大的危机，才能让人们保持恐惧，从而牢牢控制他们。
There has to be always a bigger crisis from a system based on theft to keep people in fear, to be able to keep people locked locked in.
我不是说所有政党领袖或所有人都不是这样。
And I'm not saying all of the party leaders or all the people aren't.
有些人是好的，但根本性的问题是另一个问题。
There's some good people, but but foundational thing is a different question.
根本性的问题在于，这个系统无法被解决。
The foundational question is thing is that system cannot be resolved.
基于债务的体系，你无法用制造问题的系统来解决这个问题。
A debt based so you can't fix a system problem from the system creating the problem.
不。
No.
没有任何政党在进行这种对话。
None of the political parties are having this conversation.
他们只在谈论债务。
They're having conversations about debt.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
鲁珀特·洛在议会提出了一项法案，旨在禁止该国的量化宽松政策。
The Rupert Loh put in a bill into parliament to ban QE in the country.
他想禁止
He wanted to ban
就是那样。
that.
所以，想想那会带来什么影响。
So so so think what that would do.
现在会有很多人支持这个。
Now a lot of people will vote for that.
如果你在该国禁止量化宽松，就会陷入通缩性萧条。
If you ban QE in the country, you will go into deflationary depression.
是的。
Yes.
每家银行都会倒闭。
Every bank will fail.
每一样东西都会崩溃，如果你现在去偿还债务的话。
Every oh, everything will fail if you go into if you now on the other service the debt.
因为它无法偿还债务。
Because it can't service the debt.
这些债务从一开始就是资不抵债的，违背了自由市场原则。
The debts are the debt the debt was insolvent from a again, against the free market.
债务在一开始就已经资不抵债了。
The debt's insolvent by the time it started.
如果你有指数级增长的生产力，意味着价格呈指数下降，那么这些债务会变得越来越沉重，直至崩溃。
Now if you had exponential productivity, which means exponential pricing falling prices, that debt gets more and more expensive until it fails.
对吧？
Right?
所以，世界上所有的债务，世界上所有的货币，那些人们用来定价、不断追问‘再借更多债务怎么样？’的虚构纸片，
So the debts all of the money in the world, all of the money in the world, the make believe pieces of paper that people are pricing in and saying, what about more debt?
早就已经飞到钱的天堂去了。
It's all gone to money heaven already.
我这是在借用拉里·莱普德的说法，他的‘钱的天堂’。
I'm stealing from from Larry Leppard, his his money heaven.
但那些钱早就已经飞到钱的天堂去了。
But it's already gone to money heaven.
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现在，这只是你允许它不断被贬值而不提出问题的一种认知。
Now it's only a perception that you allow it to be debased more and more and more without asking the question.
如果它不断被贬值，难道不会导致更大的监控吗？
If it was debased more and more, wouldn't that lead to greater surveillance?
难道不会导致更大的集中化吗？
Wouldn't that lead to greater centralization?
难道不会吗？为什么没有人谈论最简单的事情——世界上最简单的事情？
Wouldn't that and and why is nobody talking about the most simple thing the most simple thing in the world?
他们都在谈论这些超越第一原则的无稽之谈。
They're all talking about this nonsense above above the first principle.
也许有些人并不知道。
Perhaps some don't know.
大多数人并不知道。
Most don't know.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他们真的不知道。
They don't they just don't actually know.
他们没读过你的书。
They haven't read your book.
他们没有研究过货币。
They haven't studied money.
他们只是在回应我每天作为政治家摆在他们面前的东西，或者他们不得不做的决定。
They just are responding to the the things I put in front of them every day as a politician or the decisions they've had to make.
他们实际上没有，但如果你把那个政治家摆在你面前，让他回答这个问题：市场的自然状态是通缩的吗？
They haven't actually but if you if you had that politician in front of you and you had them answer that question, is the natural state of the market deflationary?
也许他们原本不知道，但你向他们解释后，他们突然明白了。
And maybe they didn't know, but you explained to them they suddenly understood it.
那他们接下来会做什么？
What do they do next?
通常会回到这一点，这就是为什么你会知道这个。
Typically go back to so and that's why it is you know this.
我们已经讨论过多少次了？
You how many times have we talked about it?
是的。
Yeah.
而且要花很长时间才能真正理解。
And it and it it takes a long time for it to click.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
我认为，我第一次读你的书时就明白了，那大概是六七年前吧。
I think I mean, I think it's I understood it the first time I read your book, which was six, seven years ago, I think.
我想那是在书刚出版的时候。
I think when it pretty much first came out.
正如我所说，我回去后给你发了条消息。
And as I said, I went back and I text you.
我回去又读了一遍，因为这次以不同的方式理解了。
I went back and read it again because it clicked in a different way.
是的。
Yep.
我认为当我更多地成为这个系统的受益者时，我才真正明白了。
I think it clicked when I became more of a beneficiary from the system.
我笑了，我和你互发短信时也笑了，因为每次我上你的播客，你都说：‘我现在明白了。’
I I I I laughed, and I laughed well, you and I traded some texts laughing because because each time I've gone on your podcast, you've said, now I get it.
是的。
Yeah.
但再次强调，这是一个非常深刻的概念。
And and but again, it's such a deep concept.
它的深度非同寻常。
It's so the depth of it.
因为你必须意识到，你本质上是在一点一点地放下一个谎言。
Be because you have to realize you're essentially, you're letting go of a lie one finger at a time.
对吧？
Right?
你不想放下这个谎言，因为它在过去那个系统中曾为你服务得很好。
And you don't wanna let go of that lie because it served you well from the other system.
所以我们想要，好吧。
So we we we we want to, okay.
是的。
Yep.
这没错，但它也可以与这个其他系统共存，而我们只是直接回到我们整天都在做的事情上。
That's true, but it can also coexist with this other system, and we just go straight back to what we do all the all day long.
我们直接回到中心化的媒体、中心化的强制和中心化的其他一切。
We go straight back to the centralized media, centralized coercion, centralized everything else.
而在这个系统中，我们的一切衡量标准都来自这个系统。
And from that system, we're we're measuring everything from that system.
我们并不知道自己被困在这个系统里，而自由市场是一个无限游戏，这一点非常容易理解。
We don't know we're stuck in that system, and the the thing that's so easy, the the the free market is an infinite game.
它说的只有一件事。
You it it says one thing.
你必须为他人提供价值，才能获得报酬，而你提供价值的行为结果是为了所有人服务，因为其他人会与你竞争，提供更多的价值，从而使价格越来越快地下降。
You must provide value to somebody else to be able to get paid, and the result of your actions of of providing value are in service of everyone because then those other people compete with you to provide more value, and prices fall faster and faster.
杰夫，我觉得这次之所以突然明白了，可能是因为我最近接近了政治。
I I think the reason it clicked this time, Jeff, and I'll probably tell you it'd get in a couple of years, it's clicked again, but I think it really clicked this time is because I've got close to politics.
我接近了权力的中枢，甚至开始考虑是否要竞选议员。
I've got close to the levers of power to the point of considering, do I run as an MP?
于是我在思考，如果我真的参选，基于我对金钱和经济的了解——尽管我的理解很有限——我能做些什么来解决这个问题？
Then I'm trying to understand, well, if I do, based on what I know about money and economics, my limited understanding, what are the things I could do to fix this?
我看到了负面的一面，比如我们国家权利的丧失，对我们的权利的侵犯令人感到羞愧。
I've seen the negative side, you know, the the loss of our rights in this country, the infringement on our rights is a bit embarrassing.
目前，我们身上确实有一种强烈的威权倾向。
We've got this real authoritarian streak at the moment.
是的
Yep.
我一直在关注
I'm watching all over
但这一切就在这里，感觉进展很快。
the But it's here, it's it feels fast.
比如，他们想改变的那些事：废除陪审团制度、推行数字身份、限制我们的言论自由。
Like, the things they wanna change, get rid of jury trials, digital ID, infringements on our speech.
所以我们正面临这么多对权利的侵犯。
So we've got all these infringements on our rights.
我们还经历了官僚体系的大幅扩张，但这种官僚体系正在催生新的行业——人力资源、会计、法律等领域。
We've got this massive increase in bureaucracy, but it's bureaucracy which is creating new industry, bureaucratic industries, HR, accounting, legal.
最低工资在上涨，但问题在于，它现在造成了工资压缩：比如在超市收购物车的最低工资，已经接近中下层阶级的薪资水平，我正看到这种现象。
We've got minimum wages going up, and the problem with the minimum wages is that it's creating wage compression now in that the lowest amount of money you're gonna say if you collect trolleys at a supermarket is very close to a lower middle class wage now, so I'm seeing that.
当我一直在观察这一切，并思考：该如何解决它？
As I've been looking at all this and saying, how do you fix it?
你该怎么解决呢？
How do you fix it?
你能做些什么？
What are the things you can do?
我常常想到
And I often come
回来
back
觉得这根本无法解决。
to, oh, it can't be fixed.
所以，我无法解决它。
So that's Oh, I can't fix it.
但你可以，而且如果你愿意承担领导责任，你可能正处在绝佳的位置，但要诚实一点。
So so you can, and and you you might be perfectly positioned to if you wanted to take leadership, but then be honest.
人们会因为你的坦诚而投票支持你吗？
Know it would would people vote for you being honest in it?
也许这一轮不行，因为他们还没准备好接受坦诚。
Maybe not this cycle because they're not ready for the honesty.
巴奎利就是这种情况。
That's what happened with Baqueli.
对吧？
Right?
而他们当时是准备好接受坦诚的。
And they were ready for honesty.
对吧？
Right?
他们也准备好迎接一位敢于将比特币引入本国的果断领袖。
And they were ready for a a bold leader who would drive Bitcoin into their country.
如果你看看那个国家，我刚又回去了一次。
And if you look at that country, if it I just went back again.
值得关注的是英国将走向何方，是的。
The difference to watch to watch The UK go one way Yeah.
再看看萨尔瓦多走向另一条路。
And to watch El Salvador go the other way.
这真是非凡的。
It's it's remarkable.
过去四年里我去了那里四次，四年前你也在那里。
I've been there four times over the last four years, and four years ago, you were there too.
是的。
Yeah.
那是个可怕的地方。
It was a scary place.
确实是个可怕的地方。
Very scary place.
现在安全了。
Now It's safe.
不只是
Not just
不只是安全。
not just safe.
萨尔瓦多城的这个中心区域看起来就像一座美丽的欧洲城市，人们和孩子们晚上11点还在街上玩耍。
This center of San Salvador is like it looks like a beautiful European city, and people kids are out playing in in the streets 11:00 at night.
家庭们都聚在一起。
Families are are around.
这太惊人了。
It's it's stunning.
简直令人惊叹。
It's absolutely stunning.
但再次强调，他最终采取了大胆的举措，因为他无法从旧体系中有所作为，于是他全力以赴，试图彻底清除它。
And so but again, what ends up happening is he took a bold step because he couldn't do anything from that other system, and he went really hard to try to rip it all out.
所以如果有人在听，当你提到比特币时，我们仍然生活在一个绝大多数人听到比特币就觉得是某种骗局、某种网络诈骗、某种他们不理解的互联网货币的世界里。
So if somebody's listening to this, and you're mentioning Bitcoin, and we still live in a world where the vast majority of these people, when you say to them about Bitcoin, they still think it's some kind of scam, some kind of, you know, online scam, some Internet currency they don't understand.
他们不理解比特币是如何从根本上解决我们国家债务和通货膨胀问题的。
They don't understand how it's foundational to repairing the problem of debt and inflation in our country.
你怎样才能最简单地向别人解释这一点？
What's the easiest way you could explain that to somebody?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，先让他们问问：什么是钱？
So so ask ask them to ask what is money first.
对吧？
Right?
货币不过是我们之间交易的一种抽象概念。
And all money is is an abstract concept of our trade.
如果这种人类交易的抽象概念可以被操控，那么人类的交易会怎样？
And so if money to you if that abstract concept of our trade between humans can be manipulated, then what would happen to humans trade?
对吧？
Right?
所有源自这种交易的东西都会被操控，而我们很清楚，我们定义货币的方式——可以无限印制的纸张——就是一种操控。
Everything coming from that that trade would be manipulated, and we know for sure how we define money, pieces of paper that can in be infinitely printed, is manipulation.
所以，如果你看到本应带来丰裕的技术，却目睹了无限增多的纸币——这其实是对我们时间的操控，而你又以这种操控为衡量标准，那你就会看到如今你所见到的一切。
So what would you expect if you saw technology which should should provide abundance and you saw infinitely more pieces of paper, which was manipulation of our time, and you were measuring from that, you would expect to see everything you see.
所以，我在理解这一点时，会想到四种典型人物，我知道对你来说也是如此，因为你经历过同样的过程。
So so I type I I type think about kind of four personas in understanding this, and and and I know for me that you know too because you went through the same thing.
你走过了这条路径，也曾经身处另一个体系之中。
And you go through this path, and you also were in the other system.
你切换了体系，看到自己的生活变得越来越好。
And you you move you move systems, and you see your life getting better.
exponentially better。
Exponentially better.
生活变得 exponentially better，这本应是地球上所有人类的常态。
Exponentially better, which should be all humans on the planet.
是的。
Yeah.
让我们来探讨四种不同类型的人，'类型'这个词几乎像是市场营销中用来描述行为相似的一群人的说法。
So so let's take four different personas, and a persona, like, is almost a marketing word for a group of people who act like this.
对吧？
Right?
所以对于一个不了解货币已经失效、仍以货币为衡量标准的人来说，
And so a persona persona, you don't know that money is broken, and you're measuring through that money.
对比特币来说，它看起来就像另一个骗局。
To to you, Bitcoin just looks like another scam.
对吧？
Right?
它没有任何实际用途。
To the there's no use case.
这东西到底是什么？
What is this thing?
我可以信任机构。
I can trust institutions.
我可以信任政客。
I can trust the politicians.
我可以信任它，因为你根本不知道货币已经崩溃了。
I can trust it because you have no idea that money is broken.
而根据这个标准来看，你会看到什么结果回来。
And and and by from that measure for you, what will come back.
对吧？
Right?
你的信念会直接反馈回来。
Your belief will feed right back.
你会一直观看同样的媒体，相信某些东西不对劲，却完全不知情。
You'll be watching the same media believing that something's not and you will have no idea.
对你来说，这将是真实的。
It'll be true for you.
如果你有资产，这些资产看起来会不断升值。
And your life, if you had assets, those assets will look like they're going up.
如果你没有资产，你会感觉自己的损失越来越快、越来越快。
If you didn't have assets, it'll look like you're losing faster and faster and faster.
两方面都如此。
Both both things.
对吧？
Right?
即使你拥有资产，也无法筑起足够高的墙来抵御即将到来的变化。
Even if you had assets, you will not be able to build walls high enough to fight what's coming.
对吧？
Right?
因此，在这个群体中的两类人都会认为自己是对的，并把比特币视为一种干扰。
So on both both of those people within that cohort would believe that they were right, and they would see Bitcoin as a as just a distraction.
再来看另一群人或另一种人设。
Take another cohort of people or persona.
他们把比特币视为一种技术，而技术通常都是赢家通吃，直到被新技术取代。
They they see Bitcoin as a as a technology, and and technologies are typically winner take most until a new technology replaces it.
因此，从这个角度看，你会很容易认为加密货币、区块链以及其他一切都会被更好的技术取代。
And so from that viewpoint, you would be easily look at crypto, blockchain, everything else, and there'd always be another better technology.
从那个角度来看，你实际上是在试图逃离这个系统。
And what you would be doing from that standpoint is you were try you were trying to get out of the system.
你意识到有些地方不对劲，看到别人快速致富，你也想尽快发财。
You knew something was wrong, and you wanted to get rich really quickly with all of with with all the other you saw other people get rich.
你也想尽快发财。
You wanted to get rich really quickly too.
于是你在这个过程中承担了越来越多的风险。
So you take more and more risk in this.
那么市场会给你什么回报呢？
And what would the market serve you?
这个市场会给你一大堆骗局，让你去操作。
This market would serve you a whole bunch of scams to be able to do that.
对吧？
Right?
而且他们会不断推广越来越多的骗局。
And they would be promoting more and more scams.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
从那个角度来看，再从另一个角度来看，那个不懂钱的人会认为这一切都是骗局。
And and from that viewpoint, and and then from the other viewpoint, the the person who didn't understand money, they would look at both of these and say, the whole thing's a scam.
对吧？
Right?
现在你再考虑另一群人，或者另一种人格。
Now you take another cohort of people or another persona.
这是一项资产。
It's an asset.
对吧？
Right?
这是最好的资产，但货币在这个资产之上仍然是有问题的。
It's the best asset, but money is still broken on top of that asset.
如果对你来说它只是一项资产，而货币依然有问题，那么这项资产就必须越来越快地集中化，这将导致新的世界统治者采用我们一直拥有的相同模式。
And if you're if it's just an asset to you and money is still broken, then then that asset has to be centralized faster and faster and faster, and that would lead to the new kings of the world with the same model that we've always had.
还有一类人，他们把它视为一种协议。
Then there's a fourth group persona, and those those people who see it as a protocol.
关于协议，有一点是赢家通吃。
One thing about protocols is they're winner take all.
它们不会，所以不存在第二个互联网。
They don't and and and so there is no second Internet.
它们是分层的，并且不断添加越来越多的功能。
And they come in layers, and they add more more and more functionality.
从这个角度来看，你会意识到，好吧。
And from that viewpoint, you would realize, okay.
这个东西是全新的。
This this thing this thing is new.
它以前从未存在过。
It's never existed before.
如果你有一个良好、开放、去中心化、受能源约束的协议，并且它保持去中心化和安全，它就不会被其他所有噪音淹没。
And if you had a decent open, decentralized, secure protocol bounded by energy, and it stayed decentralized and secure, it wouldn't met all of the other noise.
这一切都不重要。
None of it would matter.
对吧？
Right?
因为它会在足够长的时间内重新定价整个世界。
Because it would be repricing the world over over a long enough time frame.
唯一的前提是它保持去中心化和安全。
The only caveat is it stayed decentralized and secure.
如果你明白它是一个协议，而协议是分层叠加的，你就会把时间投入到协议本身，并帮助构建这些层级。
If you understood it was a protocol, and protocols come in layer layers, you would move your time to the protocol, and you would help build the layers.
你会不断防御那些在这里传播的其他无稽之谈，对吧？因为这些言论试图攻击它，因为它摧毁了我们所知的一切基础，并用更好的东西取而代之，但你会把时间投入到其中。
You would be constantly on the defense of what other nonsense is being said over here, right, to be that that's going to try to attack this because it destroys the entire foundation of everything we've ever knew known and replace us with something better, but you would move your time.
对于这样的人而言，他们会看到一切变得越来越容易。
And and for that person too, they would see everything getting easier.
他们会看到人们也理解了这一点，并看到成千上万的人正在一个不仅仅是资产、不仅仅是货币的协议上构建，并开始用它进行交易。
They would see the relationships that people understood that too, and they would see thousands of people that also were building on a protocol where it's not just an asset, where it's money, where and they would start transacting in it.
如果你只是分别看待这四种角色，每个人都会在其中找到自己的影子。
If you just take each of those four personas, each one would be true to every person.
对吧？
Right?
如果我现在试图说服某人，说我的版本才是正确的协议，而他们的版本仍然相信机构和货币，那祝你好运。
If you tried to convince if I tried to convince somebody right now that my version is true, is protocol, and their version is they still believe in institutions and money, good luck.
对吧？
Right?
但我可以告诉你，在我的世界里，我所看到的，以及这一切爆炸式发展的速度，它如何迅速成为全球范围内的货币，如何削弱这种权力，以及它面临的巨大风险，因为这种权力想要阻止它。
But I can tell you that in my world and what I'm seeing and they how fast this is exploding, how fast it's becoming money around the world, how it's and it's removing this power, how much risk it faces too because this power wants to stop it.
但你其实只需要把时间投入进去。
But you can actually just move your time.
关于时间这一点也很有趣，因为从外部看比特币，人们很容易觉得：哦，你只是赶上了早期，运气好而已。
It's it's funny that point on time as well because I think it's easy to look at Bitcoin from the outside and think, oh, that's you you got in early, you got lucky.
他们只根据货币本身来评估它，但他们忽略了时间，以及它如何让你更好地利用时间做出更明智的决策。
They they they value it based on on the money itself, but what they miss is the time and how it allows you to make better decisions with how you use your time.
自由市场就是通缩。
It's it free market is deflation.
是的。
Yes.
我们有着指数级的生产率提升。
We have exponential productivity gains.
是的。
Yes.
这意味着，一个无法被操纵的系统会将这些指数级的生产率提升带给该网络中的你和每一个人。
Meaning, a system that can't be cheated will drive those exponential productivity gains to you and everybody in that network.
从此以后。
Then forever.
永远如此。
Forever.
只要它保持去中心化和安全。
As long as it stays decentralized and secure.
人们被困在牢房里，对着囚禁他们的人大喊大叫，把被夺走的能量和精力继续供给那些人，而这些人却能自由移动。
And you have so people are inside the jail cell, right, yelling at their captors, giving more strength, giving more of their energy that's stolen from them for the same people, and they can just move.
所以这些指数级的增长正在被转移
So those exponential gains are being transferred
转移到那些参与比特币网络的人身上。
to those who are Part of a network on Bitcoin.
参与比特币网络的人。
Part of a network on Bitcoin.
而这些人不仅仅是持有它。
And those and those people are not just holding it.
这些人正在花掉它。
Those people are spending it.
他们正在推动循环经济体，这就是萨尔瓦多正在发生的事。
They're driving circular economies that this is what's happening in El Salvador.
这正是你在世界各地、我所访问的许多地区正在发生的事。
This is what's happening in many regions around the world that you visited, I visited.
现在还早呢。
It's early still.
真的还太早了。
It's so early still.
如果你播客的大多数听众还没听过这些，他们以为自己了解货币是什么样子，却从未问过自己货币到底是什么，想想看我们有多早。
If if most of the people on on your podcast haven't heard this, and they think they know about what money looks like, and they've never asked themselves what is money, imagine how early we are.
我想和你聊聊我的一个赞助商Incogni，这意味着我们要谈谈垃圾信息的奇怪世界。
I want to talk to you about one of my sponsors, Incogni, and that means we're gonna talk about the weird world of spam.
我说的不只是你每天收到的那些来自你从未听说过的公司、你从未注册过的公司的垃圾邮件。
And I don't just mean those spam emails that you get day after day from companies you never heard of and companies you've never signed up to.
我还指的是那些打来的垃圾电话，对方似乎对你了解得太多，试图套取你的银行信息。
I'm also talking about those spam phone calls you get from those people who seem to know a little bit too much about you, trying to get your bank details.
这一切都让人有点毛骨悚然。
It's all a bit creepy.
对吧？
Right?
这一切都源于数据经纪行业。
Now this all comes from the world of data brokerage.
有一些公司正在收集你的数据，建立个人档案，并将这些数据出售给任何想要的人，这就是为什么当那些骗子给你打电话时，他们似乎对你了如指掌。
There are companies out there collecting your data, building profiles, and sending that data to anyone who wants it, which is why when one of those scammers phones you up, they seem to know everything about you.
我已经试过了。
Now I've tried.
我尝试过自己从这些名单中移除，想摆脱电话推销列表，也想退出邮件列表。
I've tried myself to get off these lists, try to get off the phone list, try to get off the email list.
我会取消订阅每一封收到的垃圾邮件，但这就像打地鼠游戏。
I unsubscribe from every one of these emails that comes in, but this game of whack a mole.
这根本没完没了。
It just never ends.
所以，这就是Incogni发挥作用的地方。
And so this is where Incogni comes in.
他们为你承担所有繁重的工作。
They do all the hard work for you.
他们联系这些公司，帮你合法地从这些名单中移除。
They reach out to these companies, and they will get you legally removed from these lists.
我知道是因为上次他们赞助我的节目时，我注册了，而且没有选择他们提供的免费选项。
And I know because the last time they sponsored my show, I signed up, and I didn't take the free option that they offered me.
我愿意付费。
I wanted to pay for it.
我想看看是否物有所值，结果他们帮我从79个数据经纪商名单中移除了我的信息。
I wanted to see if you get value for money, and they removed me from 79 data broker lists.
所以我一直留着。
And so I've stayed on.
我一直是订阅用户，并且收到的邮件和电话数量大幅减少。
I've stayed a subscriber, and I have seen a massive decrease in the number of emails and phone calls I've been getting.
这是一项很棒的服务。
So it's a great service.
我建议你去了解一下。
I recommend you check it out.
如果你和我一样厌倦了这些，请前往 incogni.com/peter 注册。
If you're sick of this like I was, please head over to incogni.com/peter and sign up.
如果你使用代码 peter，将享受高达 60% 的优惠。
If you use the code peter, you will get a lovely 60% discount.
所以就是 incogni.com/peter。
So that's incogni.com/peter.
随着我们即将迎来的人工智能带来的指数级增长，我的意思是，你一定也看到了过去几周 SaaS 公司发生的一切。
And with the exponential gains we're going to be getting from AI, which is coming now, I mean, I've seen I you must have seen everything that's happened with the SaaS companies over the last few weeks.
过去几周，我们几乎感觉到了某种加速。
It almost feels like the last couple of weeks, we've seen some kind of acceleration.
所以做
So do
你知道吗，即使如此，如果人们去我的推特，我以前根本没上过推特。
you do you know that even so if people went to my Twitter I haven't been on Twitter before.
去你的推特。
Do your Twitter.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
你看到我做了什么吗？
You saw what I did?
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
好的
Okay.
杰夫·鲍尔
Jeff Ball.
是的
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我训练了一个AI代理，它处理了我所有的内容。
So I I trained an AI agent that did on all my content.
我花不到一天时间就处理了我所有的内容——上千个播客、我的书，以及我写的大量内容，我训练了一个代理，这个代理就在推特上活动。
Took me less than a day on all my content, a thousand thousand podcasts, my book, whole bunch of content that I wrote, and I trade an agent, and just that agent is on Twitter.
但对于那些想看看这是什么样子的人，请阅读我为什么这么做这篇帖子，因为我不认为人们意识到，他们的时间正被这些系统所占据，他们正在与机器人、俄罗斯水军、这个农场、那个农场等进行争吵和叫嚣，而每个人都在通过这个系统看待自己，越来越深地陷入这个正在榨取他们时间和精力的系统中。
But for people who wanna say see what that looks like, read the post on why I did it because I don't think people realize that their time is inside these systems, and they're fighting and yelling with just, say, just bots, Russian troll farms, this farm, this farm, and each person sees themselves through this thing, and they're fighting more and more within the system that's extracting their time and energy.
所以我这么做，并写下了原因，我把这些写在我的网站上，我还在Noster上——一个基于比特币构建的社交网络——和我爱的人一起做我喜欢的事，而与此同时，人们正在和我的机器人争吵。
And so I I did it as a as and I wrote why, and I wrote why on my my website, and and I'm on Noster on some social network built on top of Bitcoin, that I'm just spending time with people I love doing the things I love while people are arguing with my bot.
对吧？
Right?
而且它每天都是热门话题。
And it's trending most days.
对吧？
Right?
它但是
It's But
这很有趣，因为你知道，我开了一家酒吧。
it's funny because you you know I own a bar.
是的。
Yeah.
我把它卖了。
I sold it.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
我卖掉它的原因是，经营这家酒吧，我必须用旧系统操作。
And that the reason I sold it is because operating that bar, I have to do it from the old system.
我无法用新系统来做。
I cannot do it from the new system.
如果足够多的人带着比特币来消费，也许我可以——我确实有一些比特币。
If enough people came and spent bitcoin in there, maybe We I do have some bitcoin.
人们有，但不够多。
People have, but not enough.
对。
Right.
在这个系统里，我正应对通货膨胀导致的成本上升和最低工资上涨。
So in that system, I am fighting inflationary cost rises, raises in minimum wage.
监管。
Regulation.
监管变化。
Regulation changes.
生活成本危机让人们减少外出。
The cost of living crisis mean people are going out.
我正试图逆流而上，维持这家店运转。
I'm trying to push water uphill to keep that thing going.
在这个过程中，我耗费了大量时间，却没有任何财富或繁荣的增加。
And in doing that, it's taking my time and I'm not increasing any there's no, like, gains in prosperity or wealth for me.
我一直在想，大概三四个月前，我开始问自己：我为什么要这么做？
And I've and I you know, about three, four months ago, went, why am I doing this?
是的。
Yeah.
所以你是一个理性行为者。
And so you're a rational actor.
所以你好好想想这一点。
And so think think about this.
在自由市场中，非理性行为者会尽力提供最大价值，但如果做不到，他们就会失败或倒闭，因为他们无法提供足够的价值。
From a irrational actor in in the free market will do the best things to provide value, but if they can't, they fail or they close-up and they because they couldn't provide enough value.
对吧？
Right?
如果政府越来越多地介入，
And and so if if government takes more and more and more
嗯。
Mhmm.
那么，企业就会更快地实现自动化。
Then then what the businesses do is they automate faster.
对吧？
Right?
因为如果它们不更快地自动化以降低成本，我们这些用户就不会使用这项服务、酒吧或其他任何东西。
Because if they don't automate faster to make prices come down come down, then us as users won't use the service or the bar or anything else.
所以现在你面临一种冲突，一切都变成了中央政府的控制。
So now you have this conflict that everything turns into central government.
一切。
Everything.
而这个中央政府以及围绕监管的操控，谁是谁，所以我认为大多数人在你的节目中并不知道这一点，但监管实际上有利于垄断。
And and and that central government and and the manipulation around regulation and and who is who so so I I don't think most people would know this on your show, but regulation favors a monopoly.
对吧？
Right?
在自由市场中不可能出现垄断，因为利润空间会创造出机会，让人们去挑战这个利润空间并创造更多价值。
There can't be a monopoly in a free market because the margin created creates the opportunity for people to attack the margin and create more value.
所以垄断企业希望有监管。
So so monopolies want regulation.
是的。
Yes.
他们假装自己不希望这样，但这就是为什么那是一个庞大的俱乐部，而你不在其中。
They pretend that they don't, but that's why that's why it's one big club and you're not in it.
他叫什么名字，乔治？
What's his name, George?
是那个喜剧演员说的吗？
That's the comedian who says that?
乔治·卡林。
George Carlin.
乔治·卡林。
George Carlin.
对。
Yes.
一个庞大的俱乐部，而你不属于其中。
One big club, and you're not in it.
但比特币俱乐部是个小圈子，你可以加入。
But the Bitcoin club is a small club, and you can be in that.
你可以加入一个庞大的、不断扩大的俱乐部，它将扩展到全球80亿人。
You can be so you're you're gonna be in one big club, one ever growing club that's gonna move to 8,000,000,000 people on
这个星球上。
this planet.
那么，对你而言，人工智能和比特币之间内在的联系是什么？
So so what is the so what is the intrinsic link then for you between AI and Bitcoin?
它们是联姻吗？
Are are they is this is this a a marriage?
嗯，我的看法是，人工智能只是生产力的一种自然延伸，就像回到折纸那样。
Well, so so how I look at it is just AI is just an extension of productivity that was naturally like, you go back to that paper folding.
人工智能在过去七十五年里一直遵循着同样的趋势。
AI has been on the exact same trend for seventy five years.
这只是最初的几次折叠，每个人都以为，如果你只折一次这张纸，根本感觉不到变化。
It's just one of the first fold felt and everybody thought thought that if you fold that piece of paper once, it'll feel like nothing.
如果你折两次，也感觉不到任何不同。
If you fold it twice, it'll feel like nothing.
因此存在过度炒作，而现在我们正处于更大的折叠阶段。
And so there's this overhype, and now we're in the bigger folds.
因此，广义上的AI技术，我们的创新源于站在前人的肩膀上，并不断修正错误。
And so AI technology broadly, our innovation comes from standing on the shoulders of great people who went before us and error correcting.
而我们现在修正错误的速度如此之快，这将导致错误修正的速度越来越快，呈指数级爆发。
And we're now error correcting at a rate that is so fast, and that's going to lead to faster and faster and exponential explosion of error correcting.
然后，AI将与机器人融合，机器人之间将相互竞争，这将推动技术以更快、更快、更快的速度前进。
And then the AIs are gonna merge with robots, and the robots are gonna compete with robots, and that's going to prod faster and faster and faster and faster.
在这个过程中，会有一些事情发生。
There's gonna be things along the way.
你会听到人们说，别担心。
You'll hear people say, don't worry.
我们要对机器人征税。
We're gonna tax the robots.
对吧？
Right?
你笑了，但等你听到后面就会明白，你会听到埃隆·马斯克说，别担心。
You laugh, but wait till you hear it because you're gonna hear people you're gonna hear Elon Musk say, don't worry.
我们要给你提供普遍的基本高收入。
We're gonna we're gonna give you universal high basic income.
这笔钱从哪里来？
Where does that come from?
它来自金钱所创造的垄断。
It comes from the monopoly created by money.
普遍的基本高收入从哪里来？
Where does the universal high basic income come from?
因为自然状态是，你不需要钱，因为价格会永远持续下降，但你必须拥有某种无法被操纵的东西。
Because the natural state is you don't need the money because prices keep falling forever, but you have to have something that can't be manipulated.
你必须拥有比特币，才能理解这一点。
You have to have Bitcoin to allow you to see that.
但他也谈论过丰裕时代，他认为我们不再需要钱。
But he's also talked about the age of abundance where he thinks money we won't need money.
但我对这个概念感到困惑，因为钱是
And I struggle with that concept because money is
一种衡量标准。
a measuring stick.
所以从现在起一百年后，我认为我们可能仍然需要某种以能源为支撑的东西。
So at some point down hundred years from now, I would say we will still probably need something energy backed.
对吧？
Right?
比特币也能解决这个问题。
The Bitcoin that resolves that too.
但你肯定不需要很多。
But you sure won't need very much.
对吧？
Right?
这种富足会流向你。
That abundance will flow to you.
对吧？
Right?
但你的能源价格会跟随这一趋势。
But you'll energy prices will follow that trend.
所有价格都会跟随这一趋势。
All prices will follow that trend.
实际上，如果你在足够长的时间段内以比特币来衡量，无论是能源价格、房价，还是任何其他东西，你都会清晰地看到这一趋势。
Actually, if you measure in Bitcoin over any long enough time period and you measure energy prices in Bitcoin, if measure house prices in Bitcoin, if you measure anything in Bitcoin, you'll see the trend perfectly clear.
那么，AI是否正在创造一种加速理解和采用比特币的紧迫性？
So but is AI creating a an accelerated imperative to understand and adopt Bitcoin?
双方都是。
Both sides.
是的。
Yeah.
双方都是。
Both sides.
它正在加速债务的破产，不仅仅是债务破产，更是让人们意识到，债务早在很久以前就已经资不抵债了，现在只是赤裸裸的谎言。
It's creating accelerated insolvency of the debt, and and not just insolvency of the debt, but an awareness that debt was insolvent a long time ago, and now it's just blatant lies.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
还有赤裸裸的控制，现在需要监控了。
And and blatant control, now it needs surveillance.
那为什么感觉不再像一个民主社会了？
So why why it doesn't feel like a democracy anymore?
它曾经确实像一个民主社会。
It did feel like a democracy.
问问你自己。
Ask yourself this.
如果你在一个民主国家有投票权，你生活在一个自由民主体制下，但你却无法对被剥夺的金钱投票——而这远不止是税收问题——那么你的投票还重要吗？
If you have a vote in a democracy, you're a liberal democracy, but you don't have a vote in your money that's stolen from you, and it's it's way more than the taxes, then do you have does your vote matter at all?
我一直引用的参考是，你现在所投票的只是变革的速度以及变革指向谁。
All your I keep the the reference I keep pointing to is that all you're voting for now is the pace of change and who it's pointing at.
那么，谁有资格坐在破败的货币体系顶端？
Well, you're who gets to who gets to sit on top of the broken money?
是的。
Yeah.
你所投票的正是这个。
That's what you're voting for.
你不是在为变革投票。
You're not voting for change.
你是在为自己的阵营能从破败的货币体系中分得更多利益而投票。
You're voting for your side gets more of the broken money than the other side.
是的。
Yeah.
我更倾向于社会主义，是的。
I'm more a socialist Yeah.
或者更偏向法西斯主义的观点。
View or a more fascist view.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，如果人们不愿意花时间去了解比特币并选择加入这个系统，他们将越来越被挤压。
So if people don't spend the time to go and understand Bitcoin and choose to join that system, they're gonna get increasingly
挤压。
Squeeze.
愤怒、挤压，这取决于他们身处何处。
Mad, squeeze, go to and it depends where they are.
如果你处于这个系统的顶端，你将获得越来越多的控制权。
If you're if you're at the top of that system, you're going to gain more and more control.
你可以看到，在埃隆·马斯克身上，有些人把他奉为偶像。
You can see in the Elon Musk, some people celebrate him.
他正通过当今的技术，逐步掌控生产资料。
He's gaining more and more control out of essentially, the technic the technology today on the means of production.
而生产资料就是你所使用的工具，所以我才创建了那个AI机器人，而且我早已离开推特，因为这套系统正在利用我，让我以为自己的声音很重要。
And the means of production are, are the things you use, and so why I created that AI bot, and I've been off Twitter for a long time because the means of production is farming me inside a system to to to essentially take my voice thinking it matters.
这正是其他系统中的生产资料。
That's the means of production in the other systems.
所以现在，你有了银行体系和技术官僚体系，两者都在争夺对地球上80亿人思想的控制权。
So now you now you have a banking system and a technocrat system, both vying for control of 8,000,000,000 minds on planet going through that system.
所以，如果我们现在有一位潜在的英国领导人，
So so if we had I don't know.
一个有可能赢得选举的人，而你想引导他走上正确的道路，
If we had a potential leader for The UK right now, somebody who could potentially win an election, and you wanted to course correct them.
我知道你认为你必须在这个整个体系中运作。
So I know you think you need to operate in this whole system.
你不需要。
You don't.
你需要理解这一点。
You need to understand this.
他们到底会做些什么呢？
Like, what what are the things they would do?
是不是像布克尔做的那样，还是说对。
Is it kind of what Bukele's done, or is it yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我意思是，这是可以实现的。
I I so And it's achievable.
顺便说一下，如果你参加辩论，你知道，如果你在竞选，和一群专家辩论，让他们试着回答这些问题。
You have to start with by the way, try to if you were in a debate, you know, if you were running and you were in a debate with a bunch of talking heads, have them try to answer any of these questions.
对吧？
Right?
并且要意识到，系统性问题无法通过系统本身来解决，你会听到他们说‘没有用’，他们只会转移焦点。
And realize that a system problem can't be resolved by the system problem, and you'll hear, there is no the the they'll move the needle.
他们会把问题移到别处，但你该如何从这个系统中解决这个问题呢？
They'll move it somewhere else, but how do you solve that problem from that system?
但如果你意识到这有多么真实，你就应该不再浪费时间在它上面。
And and so but but if you realize how true that is, then you should stop giving it any time.
对吧？
Right?
如果你现在想参选，那就是问题所在。
And if you wanted to if you wanted to run now that's the problem.
我们所讨论的内容，公众的认知程度实在太浅薄了。
The general awareness of what we're talking about is so shallow.
为什么它会这么浅薄？
And why is it shallow?
因为他们通过中心化系统的媒体视角来看待，试图分化人们。
Because they're looking through the media of the centralized system, trying to divide them.
所以，他们根本不知道自己被困在系统中，正被这个系统操控。
So so you don't they they have no idea that they're stuck in a system, and they're being manipulated in that system.
所以，即使马来所做的一切，仍然是……
So even what Malay is doing is Still
还是同一个系统。
still same system.
同一个系统。
The same system.
如今唯一跳出这个系统的是布克勒。
The only the only leader today who stepped out of it is Bukele.
这太引人入胜了。
That's fascinating.
如果有人正在听，此刻感到震撼，心想：是的，我不再想留在这个系统里了。
And so if somebody is listening and their minds are being blown right now and they're thinking, yeah, I don't wanna be in the system anymore.
我的杂货价格在上涨。
My groceries are going up.
我的工资跟不上了。
My wages aren't keeping up.
今年我负担不起假期了。
I can't afford a holiday this year.
我越来越有压力了。
I'm increasingly stressed.
我对电视大喊大叫。
I'm shouting at the TV.
唯一的真正建议是，你必须跳出这个系统。
The only real advice is you have to step out of the system.
我想说的是，先去学习。
And and what I would say is learn first.
外面有太多骗局了。
There's so many scams out there.
有太多骗子和其他乱七八糟的东西了。
There's so many charlatans and everything else.
所以先学习。
So learn first.
向那些有实际成果的人学习，比如比特币圈的人说的‘工作量证明’。
Learn from people who have the proof of work whether so Bitcoin people say proof of proof of work.
而工作量证明，你也可以在人身上看到。
And proof of work is you can also see in people.
他们是否长期坚持说同样的观点？
Have they been saying the same thing for a long time?
他们做过什么？他们的成果是什么样子？
What have they done, and what does it look like?
你可以去看看你四年前的播客。
And and so you could go look at your podcasts four years ago.
让你如此容易被追随和喜爱的一点，就是你对自己的改变始终保持诚实。
One the things that that makes you so easy to follow and love is because you're honest with your changes.
对吧？
Right?
人们都喜欢你这一点，因为你始终如一地诚实，看着这种真诚自然地流露出来。
And people love that about you, and you're just honest to it and and and watching that come through.
但并不是所有人都这样。
And and so some people aren't.
对吧？
Right?
今天流行什么，他们就会为了获取新支持而一百次改变立场，其他方面也是如此。
Flavor of the day today, they'll change a 100 times just to get a new vote and everything else.
所以在比特币领域，要关注那些长期在场、展示出他们工作证明的人，看看他们的诚信是否始终如一？
And so so in Bitcoin, watch for people who've been there a long time showing their proof of work and and say and and have they been have has their integrity been the same the whole time?
读一读你的书，《明天的价格》。
And read your book, Price of Tomorrow.
一定要去读杰夫的这本书。
Definitely go and read Jeff's book.
我觉得有些人会感到害怕。
I think some people are are going to be terrified.
我觉得有些人会被这个吓到，杰夫。
I think some people are gonna be terrified by this, Jeff.
如果事情真的开始崩溃，那将是一个令人恐惧的局面，因为人们有房贷、车贷。
It's a frightening situation if things do start to collapse because people have mortgages, car payments.
对一些人来说，退出社会是非常困难的。
It's very hard for some people to opt out of society.
我认为这为政治领袖创造了一种责任，让他们理解这一点，并向人们解释，为集体做出决策。
I think that creates an imperative for a political leader to understand this and explain it to people and make that decision for the collective.
是的。
Yeah.
而且关于比特币，它是一个由能源驱动的开放、去中心化、安全的协议。
And and maybe just just the one one of the things on Bitcoin because it was it's an open decentralized secure protocol founded by energy.
你不需要等待任何人。
You don't have to wait for anybody.
你可以直接行动。
You can just go.
所以，一个真正希望留下遗产、为公民创造价值的政治家，如果愿意接过这面旗帜，帮助公民更快地理解，我认为这是一个极其强大的平台。
So so a politician that really wants to create legacy, really wants to create value for their citizens, if they wanna take the hold of that mantle and help their citizens understand faster, I think it's an incredibly powerful platform.
是的。
Yeah.
但任何个人都不必等待。
But but any single person, they don't have to wait.
这是你不必等待的一件事。
This is one thing you don't have to wait for.
你现在就可以开始。
You could start right now.
我们在五十到五十五分钟内已经谈了很多内容。
We've crammed a lot into fifty, fifty five minutes.
你正好在伦敦，我不能错过，但我们之后会再继续讨论。
A chance that you're in London, I couldn't miss out, but we will follow this up again.
各位，请听好。
Listen, people.
回去看看。
Go back.
我跟杰夫做过四到五次采访，也许更多，他的书《未来的代价》非常棒。
I've done four, five interviews with Jeff, maybe more, and his book Price of Tomorrow is amazing.
去读一读吧。
Go and check it out.
如果你对这个系统感到恐惧，就去看看比特币。
If you're terrified by the system, go and look at Bitcoin.
爱你们所有人。
Love you all.
谢谢你，杰夫。
Thank you, Jeff.
谢谢。
Thanks.
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