比特币技术 #1 - Shinobi讲解UTXO - WBD303

我觉得像我这样的人，能准确选择要出售的币种就是个简单有效的方案，而不是优先考虑隐私。

And I think that's like that's an easy win for someone like me just to be able to, yeah, select the right coin to sell rather than the privacy.

因为隐私保护需要先满足太多层级的前提条件。

Because there's so many layers to the privacy that I have to have in place first.

这些对你来说可能很自然的事，对我来说却是个更大的跨越。

It's stuff that probably comes natural to you, but for me it's just a bigger step.

这样说有道理吗？

Does that make sense?

嗯。

Yeah.

我是说，我非常希望看到人们在这个领域更频繁地使用隐私工具，但这确实是个完美的起点。

I mean, I'd say, like, I absolutely would love to see people use privacy tools in this space more often, but this is the perfect starting point.

其实我进入这个领域后，90%的时间都是这样管理比特币的。

I mean, like, this is pretty much how I have managed my Bitcoin 90% of the time I've been in this space.

像CoinJoin、CoinSwap甚至闪电网络这类隐私工具都很棒，但你首先需要理解这些工具的用途。

Privacy tools like CoinJoin, CoinSwap, even Lightning, very good tools, but you have to kind of start first by recognizing what those tools are for.

那就是管理你所有不同UTXO之间的关联关系。

And that's managing the connections that get made between all the different UTXOs you have.

如果你在使用这些工具前，没有先理解它们的工作原理，以及作为用户需要做哪些事才能不抵消它们带来的好处。

And so if you try to use those tools without understanding what they're doing first and kind of the things you have to do as a user to not negate all the benefit from those.

你需要先打好这个基础。

You need to get that foundation set first.

最后问个问题，如果有人用Casa这样的服务来保护资产，我所有的比特币存进去就是混在一起的对吧？

And just a final question, if somebody uses something like Casa to protect myself, all my Bitcoin that goes in there just goes in there as a pile, right?

我是不是应该在存入前先做好标记，再存入CASA，这些标记会保留吗？

Would I want to label them before they go in there and then put them into CASA, would those labels be maintained?

还是说当我需要从CASA转出这些币时，得先转到Wazabi或Electrum这类钱包，这时候这些币就相当于我的流动资金了？

Or is it a case of at the point I want to ever use those coins out of CASA, I take them out CASA, put them in something like Wazabi or Electrum, and at that point, that's almost like my liquid cash.

这些币就由我来管理了。

I I manage those ones.

老实说我从没用过CASA，所以不清楚他们是否支持标记功能。

Well, honestly, I've never used CASA, so I have no idea if they support labeling.

他们应该这样做，如果没有的话。

They should, if they don't.

但归根结底，无论你使用什么钱包，是否有标签系统，一切都还是UTXO（未花费交易输出），这些后果仍可能因管理和选择不当而发生，你必须意识到这一点，无论软件是否提供标签功能来简化操作。

But it it it just really comes down to no matter what wallet you're in, whether there is a labeling system or not, everything is still UTXOs and all of these consequences can still happen due to bad management and selection and you still need to be aware of that, whether the software gives you the ability to label and make that easier or not.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

这很合理。

That's fair.

这很合理。

That's fair.

我觉得需要循序渐进，第一步应该是先实际操作并理解币种选择。

I think it's gonna be baby steps, and I think I think first step is just playing around and understanding coin selection.

接下来我会和Shinobi深入探讨UTXO，但在此之前，我要插播一条来自节目赞助商的精彩消息。

Next up, I talk to Shinobi more about UTXOs, but before that, I've got a message from my amazing show sponsors.

好的。

Okay.

我们来聊聊Kraken。

Let's talk about Kraken.

Kraken是我买卖比特币的首选平台，也是我唯一使用的交易平台。

Kraken is my favorite place for buying and selling Bitcoin, and it's the only place I use for buying and selling Bitcoin.

想知道为什么吗？

And you wanna know why.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们长期被评为最优秀且最安全的加密货币交易所。

Well, they are consistently rated the best and most secure crypto exchange.

正如我每周都告诉你的，安全性对我来说至关重要。

And as I tell you every week, security is so important to me.

他们还拥有业内顶尖的客户服务。

They also have the best in class in customer service.

所以无论你遇到什么问题，无论你是谁，他们都会帮你解决。

So if you've got an issue, whatever it is, whoever you are, they're gonna get that shit fixed for you.

如果你想开始交易比特币，这里有你所需的一切工具。

And if you wanna start trading Bitcoin, you have every tool you could possibly need.

无论你的经验水平如何，只要访问kraken.com，注册并开始比特币交易再简单不过了。

Whatever your level of experience, if you head over to kraken.com, it could not be easier to sign up and start trading Bitcoin.

他们还推出了精美的移动优先应用，让你随时随地交易比特币。

They also have a beautiful mobile first app, so you can trade Bitcoin on the go.

通过保证金交易、期货和场外交易服务，Kraken为你提供了全方位的选择。

And with their margin trading, futures, and OTC desk, Kraken has every option covered for you.

没有比这更好的比特币交易平台了。

There is no better place to trade Bitcoin.

你可以在kraken.com了解更多信息或下载应用。

You can find out more at kraken.com or download the app.

该应用支持iPhone和安卓设备。

It's available for the iPhone and Android.

只需搜索Kraken Pro，拼写是k r a k e n p r o。

Just search for Kraken Pro, which is k r a k e n p r o.

最后要提的是，虽然放在本周最后但绝非最不重要的，是我的好朋友BlockFi，他们在过去几年表现极为出色，我一直在向大家透露他们最近的公告。

And lastly, this week, but never least, it's my good friends over at BlockFi who've absolutely smashed it this last couple of years, and I've been telling you about this recent announcement.

早在圣诞节前我就开始预告，他们将很快推出Visa奖励信用卡——这件事让我非常兴奋，因为每笔刷卡消费都能叠加SAS奖励。

I started telling you about this before Christmas, that they are imminently going to be launching a Visa rewards credit card, something that I've been very excited about because you can stack SAS on every single card purchase.

非常酷。

Very cool.

对吧？

Right?

持卡用户在所有消费中都能获得市场领先的1.5%奖励。

Card users will be able to earn a market leading 1.5% rewards on all purchases.

现在等候名单注册已对所有注册的BlockFi客户开放。

Now the waitlist registration is open for all registered BlockFi clients.

如果你想加入优先等候名单，只需前往blockfi.com开立账户即可。

And if you want to join that priority waiting list, you just need to head over to blockfi.com and open an account.

公开等候名单即将很快开放，请密切关注。

The public waitlist is going to open very, very soon, so keep an eye out for that.

如果你有兴趣了解BlockFi，我建议你先自行研究，然后前往blockfi.com。

And if you are interested in checking out BlockFi, I recommend you do your own research, then head over to blockfi.com.

网址是bl0ckfi.com。

That is bl0ckfi.com.

不过我们来谈谈隐私问题，因为这很重要，人们会犯的错误，以及你在播客中提到的那些你真正关心的事情。

Let's talk about privacy though because it is important and the mistakes that people will make, and this is the stuff that you really care care about that we talked about on your podcast.

嗯。

Mhmm.

基本上当你进行比特币交易时，不仅整个区块链网络都能看到交易详情，收款方也会看到所有这些信息。

I mean, pretty much when when you make a Bitcoin transaction, not only is that showing the entire world watching the blockchain, you know, what's going on with that transaction, you're showing the person you're sending money to all of that information as well.

只不过在这种情况下，对方更有可能知道你的真实身份。

Except in that case, it's a lot more likely they're actually going to know who you are.

举个极端例子让大家看看可能发生的最坏情况。

To kind of really make an extreme example to kind of show people the worst case scenario that could happen here.

假设你走在街上，手机里存着所有比特币（这本来就不该这么做），而且都是同一个大额UTXO。

Let's say you're just walking along on the street and for some reason you have all of your Bitcoin on your phone, which you should never do, and it's all one big UTXO.

然后你和某人聊天，他注意到你穿着比特币T恤，于是你们开始讨论比特币。

And, you know, you strike up a conversation with some guy, he notices you you have a Bitcoin shirt on, so you start talking about Bitcoin.

然后你说，嘿，知道吗？

And you go, hey, you know how?

拿出手机下载这个钱包，我要给你价值20美元的比特币。

Pull out your phone and download this wallet and I'm gonna give you, you know, $20 in Bitcoin.

当你发送那笔交易时，因为你所有的钱都在一个巨大的UTXO里，假设你有50个比特币。

And when you send that transaction, because you just have all your money in one giant UTXO, let let's say you have 50 Bitcoin.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当那20美元或其他金额出现在对方钱包里时，他会看到，嘿。

When that money when that $20 or whatever shows up in that person's wallet, he's gonna see, hey.

这家伙有50个比特币。

This guy has 50 Bitcoin.

你好。

Hello.

也许我会跟踪他。

Maybe I'm gonna follow him.

或许我会去查查他住在哪里。

May maybe I'm gonna I'm gonna go see where he lives.

天啊，50个比特币？

Hell, you know, 50 Bitcoin?

我是说，现在那可是一百多万美元啊。

I mean, that's that's more than a that's more than a million dollars these days.

我觉得我要去抢劫那个人。

I think I'm gonna rob that guy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就因为想给他20美元展示比特币，你无意间向街上的陌生人暴露了自己是个百万富翁的事实。

Because in giving him $20 just because, oh, you know, I can show this guy about Bitcoin, you just gave away the fact that you're a millionaire to this random person on the street.

因为任何人都可以追溯并查看余额，所以你能看到任何UTXO中代币来源的余额。

Because anyone can trace it back and see the balance so you can see the balance of any UTXO that a coin comes from.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你可以逐笔交易一直追溯下去。

And you can trace that all the way back transaction by transaction by transaction.

当那个人看到他20美元的输出，然后又看到那50个比特币的输出回到你这里时，他就知道你拥有多少钱了。

And when that guy sees his output for $20 and then he sees that other 50 Bitcoin output that's going back to you, he knows how much money you have.

假设我没有那样做。

Let's say I didn't do that.

假设我在Trezza上有一个包含50个比特币的UTXO，然后我发送了半比特币到另一个钱包，比如手机钱包。

Let's say I had 50 Bitcoin in a single UTXO on a Trezza, and then I send, I don't know, half a Bitcoin to another wallet, say a mobile wallet.

于是我遇到同一个人，和他相处时，我发送了20美元。

So I have I meet the same guy, hang out with him, and I send in $20.

他可以通过追溯跳转看到50比特币的钱包，但他不能自动认定那就是我的。

He can see he can follow the the hops back to the 50 Bitcoin wallet, but he can't automatically assume that's mine at that point.

对吧？

Right?

理论上来说，确实不能。

I mean, in theory, no.

但实际上，他会回看一笔刚发送0.5比特币到某处、其余部分到另一处的交易，然后看到你从那0.5比特币给他转账，他就会99%确信那45或49.5比特币也是你的。

But in practice, he's going to look back at one transaction that just sent 0.5 Bitcoin somewhere and the rest somewhere else, and then he's gonna see you send him money from that 0.5 Bitcoin, and he's gonna go 99% odds that that 45 Bitcoin or 49.5 is Peter's too.

但有没有可能那是你的钱包呢，Shinobi。

But could it not have been the case of it's your wallet, Shinobi.

是你把那半比特币转给我的。

You sent it to me, that half a Bitcoin.

然后我，从那半比特币里，你知道，他必须做出这种假设。

And then I, from that half a Bitcoin, have you know, he's he's he's gotta assume he's gotta make that assumption.

并没有确凿的证据。

There's no actual proof.

是啊。

Yeah.

但是，你觉得可能性有多大呢？

But, you know, what do you think the odds are?

这确实是个棘手的问题。

And and this is kind of the sticky thing.

就像，有人可能以为只要做一次跳转就安全了，连接就断开了，但实际上并非如此。

Like, you know, somebody might assume just because they make that one hop, like, they're safe and that connection is broken right now, but that that's not how this works.

你知道，有Chainalysis、Elliptic这类链分析公司存在。

Like, you know, you you have companies like Chainalysis, like all kind like Elliptic, all all of these chain analytics companies.

当人们进行交易时，交易中的输入输出数量会呈现特定模式，这些模式相互关联。

And when people transact that there are patterns that just show up in the number of inputs and outputs in a transaction, how those connect to each other.

正是通过这些模式，这些公司才能追踪比特币的去向和动向。

And those patterns are how these companies are able to kind of figure out where Bitcoin is going and what's going on with them.

所以单纯想着多做一笔交易就安全了，其实是忽视了这些可被利用的追踪模式。

And so, like, just thinking, like, I just make this one extra transaction and I'm safe, like, that's ignoring all of these patterns that show up that somebody could use to go, you know what?

不。

No.

那很可能就是彼得囤积的大量比特币。

That probably is Peter's giant stash of Bitcoin.

那我们该怎么应对这种情况？

So so what do we do about that?

如果我手头有个包含50比特币的UTXO，我该怎么办？

If I if I am sat there with this one UTXO with 50 Bitcoin, then what do I do about that?

现实地说，现阶段只有两种处理方式。

Well, realistically, at this point in time, there's only really two ways to do that or deal with that.

首先，从中剥离一部分进行币混操作，这样经过混币流程后，当你向他人支付时会产生大量干扰并打破原有交易模式，使得他人无法直接追踪回最初的50个比特币输出。

One, peel some off of that and coin join it so that after it tumbles through the coin join and you go to pay somebody, there's a bunch of interference and a breaking of those patterns, so that somebody can't just follow it back to that original 50 Bitcoin output.

或者，剥离部分资金存入闪电网络通道，通过闪电网络完成支付。

Or, peel some off and put it into a Lightning channel and make your payments over Lightning.

因为你知道，在闪电网络上人们看不到这些与未花费交易输出(UTXO)的所有关联。

Because, you know, on Lightning, people don't see all of these connections to UTXOs.

他们只会看到有人通过闪电网络给我打了笔钱，现在这笔钱就在我的通道里。

They just see like somebody zapped me something across the Lightning Network and that's in my channel now.

所以本质上只要你想切断交易路径就行？

So basically as long as you you want to break the hop?

对。

Yeah.

好的，这说得通。

Okay, that makes sense.

那么具体原因是什么？

So what are the reasons?

因为我们节目里讨论过很多次，除了这个还有什么真正值得关注的理由？

Because we talked a lot about this on your show in terms of what are the other reasons that we should really care about?

安全因素就是个重要原因——可能有人会把这50个比特币和我联系起来，然后半夜11点带着5美元买的扳手来找我Pete，追问那笔比特币的下落。

There's this security one there in terms of somebody might link that 50 Bitcoin to me and say, Okay, I might pay Pete a visit at 11:00 at night with a $5 wrench and asking about that Bitcoin.

但还有其他理由。

But there's other reasons.

是吗？

Yeah?

嗯，另一个重要因素是手续费问题。

Well, another big one would be fees.

你知道的，不。

You know No.

我是说，抱歉，关于那个

I mean, sorry, on the on

在隐私方面，因为你想要分开，之前跟我谈过不希望人们能关联交易记录

the on the privacy side because you wanna separate like, talked to me before about not wanting people to link transactions.

举个例子你肯定不希望——比如你给妈妈转比特币时，不希望她能追踪到你还用比特币在Pornhub消费过

You wouldn't want for example, if you were sending Bitcoin to your mom, wouldn't want her to be able to track it back and see you've also spent Bitcoin at Pornhub.

是啊

Yeah.

所以这某种程度上归结为那些链分析公司使用的模式之一

So that that kinda comes down to one of those patterns, that chain analysis companies use.

就像，我们已经大致讲过了交易的基本结构

So, like, we we've already kinda gone gone over the the basic structure of a transaction.

比如你将要花费的UTXO作为输入，并生成新的输出

Like, you take the UTXOs that you need to spend as inputs and make new ones with outputs.

你知道，你只是持有一个比特币UTXO

Well, you know, you you just have a Bitcoin UTXO.

我假设，当你在某物上花钱时，你不会一次性花掉所有比特币

And I I'm assuming that, you know, when you spend money on something, you're you're not spending all of your Bitcoin at once.

所以你需要用若干个输入来完成支付，然后会有一个实际支付的输出，另一个输出则把剩余资金转回给你

So you're gonna have however many inputs that you needed to make a payment, and then you're gonna have one output that actually makes that payment, and then another output that sends the rest of your money back.

如果你频繁使用比特币，就会形成一条长链。基本上就是UTXO进入交易，生成支付输出和找零输出返回给你

Well, if you spend Bitcoin a lot, that's gonna create a big chain, And it'll pretty much be that UTXO, going into a transaction and then making a payment output and the change output back to you.

然后这个找零输出又会进入另一笔交易，生成支付输出和另一个找零输出返回给你

And then that change output will go into another transaction and make a payment output and another change output back to you.

这就会形成一长串交易链，总有一个输出返回给你，另一个分流出去支付给收款方

And it'll kind of just be a long chain of these transactions where there's always one output going back to you and another one peeling off and going to whoever you're paying.

这被称为剥离链

And this is called a appealing chain.

所以如果你经常使用比特币消费，你的币就会在所有这些分散的交易中形成一条长长的关联链，你可以看出这很可能是一个人在花钱，因为每次都是同样的模式。

And so if you you're spending Bitcoin a lot, there is just this long connection of your coins in all these separate transactions, and you can see that this is likely one person spending their money because every time it's the same thing.

会有零钱返回，而支付部分会剥离出去，在区块链上流向收款人指定的地方。

Some change comes back, and that payment peels off and goes wherever it goes on the blockchain, you know, where wherever the person you paid wants to send it.

你可以大致看出来，因为这些支付输出永远不会回到你的找零输出。

And you can kind of see because those payment outputs never come back to your change output.

它们总是从找零中剥离出去。

They always peel away from it.

比如，如果我接受你的付款（任何随机交易），而你持续使用那个UTXO进行支付，我只需查看你支付给我之前或之后的所有交易记录，就能发现：彼得又给别人付款了。

Like, if if I were to get paid by you, you know, for any random thing and you keep using that UTXO for payments, I can just look at every transaction that comes before or after the one that you made to me, and I can go, Peter paid somebody else again.

哦，他又在买别的东西了。

Oh, there he is buying something else.

不知道那是什么。

I wonder what that is.

那我是不是每次找零都要做混币？

Do I need to then coin join every change?

我认为不需要。

I would say no.

那样很快就会变得非常昂贵，但你必须考虑：你用这个UTXO买了什么？将来还会用它买什么？

That would get very expensive very quickly, but you you kind of have to think about, like, what you are buying with this UTXO, and what are you going to buy in the future with that same UTXO?

你希望这些交易之间存在关联记录吗？

And do you want a record of a connection between those things to exist?

这需要长期思考和大量管理，所以我之前说过，或许你需要为不同用途准备不同的UTXO。

That's a lot to think about and manage over time, which is why I said to you before, perhaps you need different UTXOs for different purposes.

把我不介意关联的，和绝对不想关联的分开处理。

So the stuff that I don't mind being linked, and the stuff I definitely don't want linked.

虽然工作量很大，也不是说你不该做，但考虑到无法每笔交易都这样处理，确实需要认真权衡。

It's just a lot of work, But it's not to say you shouldn't, but I think as you can't do it for every transaction, you just need to really think about them.

比如说，我现在用比特币经营部分业务。

Like for example, I run part of my business now in Bitcoin.

我通过比特币收款，也用比特币支付给他人。

I get paid in Bitcoin and I pay people on Bitcoin.

我不太担心人们把这些关联起来，毕竟这是家上市公司，但我确实想把这些分开处理。

I'm less worried about people linking those together so much because, you know, it's a public company and but I definitely would wanna separate that perhaps.

是的。

Yeah.

但如果是私人事务，我觉得情况就有点不同了。

But if I if it's personal stuff, I think it's a slightly different story.

说实话，我认为长期来看，唯一的解决方案就是把日常支付转移到链下进行。

I mean, you know, honestly, in the long term, the only solution to this, I think, is just get payments for daily regular things off chain.

这类交易应该转到闪电网络上处理。

Like, that that needs to move to the Lightning Network.

因为说真的，每笔支付都要考虑这些因素，对大多数人来说根本不现实。

Because really thinking about all of these things for every individual payment you make, it it's not really tenable for most people.

就连我这样的人也觉得这烦得要命。

I mean, it's even obnoxious as hell for somebody like me.

说真的，我不想每次付款时都要考虑这些问题。

Like, you know, I I don't I don't I don't wanna sit here and think about this every time I make a payment to something.

而且随着时间推移会越来越困难——如果不采用混币技术，一旦用某个UTXO支付过，就无法撤销记录了。

And it gets to be more and more difficult as time goes on because without things like a CoinJoin, you know, once I use a UTXO to make a payment, I can't undo that.

所以我每次使用UTXO进行新支付时，都必须追溯它之前的所有交易记录。

And so I always have to think about the past payments I've made with that UTXO every time I make a new one.

即使对技术高手来说，这也是个既烦人又耗时的过程。

And e even for advanced technical users, that's an obnoxious, time consuming thing.

真正解决这个问题的唯一办法，就是停止在链上进行这类支付。

And, really, the only way to deal with that is stop making those payments on chain.

比如，把这些交易放到闪电网络上，支付可以在链下通道中隐匿处理，这样就不会每笔支付都留下可见数据。

Like, get that onto the Lightning Network where these payments can be obscured in off chain channels, and you don't see this data for every single payment.

那么闪电网络目前在处理能力和交易规模方面进展如何？

So where are we at with Lightning in terms of capacity, the size of transactions that we can do?

因为我觉得比特币无论交易规模多大我们都很放心。

Because I think we're pretty comfortable with Bitcoin at any size.

人们已经在进行数亿金额的转账。

People are sending hundreds of millions.

但我知道闪电网络对交易规模还是存在一些顾虑。

But I know with the Lightning Network, are concerns of a certain size transactions.

这方面现在是什么情况？

Where are we at with that?

嗯，我是说最近这方面取得了很大进展。

Well, I mean, there's a lot of progress being made these days.

大概一年前，闪电网络上的每笔支付都只能走单一路径。

Like, maybe a year ago, every payment on the the Lightning Network had to go through one singular route.

但现在如果某个通道资金不足，你可以把支付拆分成多笔通过不同通道完成。

But nowadays you can actually break a payment up and split it through multiple channels if one of them doesn't have enough money to route the whole thing together.

根据我的实际经验，我经营一家小型线上T恤店，我们接受闪电网络支付。

Know, kind of from experience, I run a small online shirt store and we take payments over Lightning.

说实话，现在用比特币而非法币进行的支付，绝大多数都走闪电网络。

Honestly, the vast majority of payments in Bitcoin instead of fiat are coming over the Lightning Network.

现在支付失败的情况已经比一年前少很多了，没那么烦人。

Like, it's nowhere near as kind of obnoxious and your payment failed as it was a year ago.

实际上比特币价格越高，闪电网络能处理的交易量就越大。

And really, the higher that the Bitcoin price goes, the more transactions Lightning can process.

甚至都不需要新增流动性或开通新通道。

Like you don't even have to add new liquidity or channels.

价格上涨才能处理更多美元计价的交易。

It's just the price goes up that can process more dollar term transactions.

目前你对哪种交易金额感觉比较放心？比如一千美元的交易你能很轻松地完成吗？

Is there a certain kind of size at the moment that you feel comfortable around and, you know, could you do a thousand dollar transaction quite comfortably?

我觉得那可能会带来一些问题，但50、100美元左右的交易，最近我还没遇到过什么麻烦。

I I think that might probably present some issues, but, you know, $50 $100 $100 something transactions, I have not seen issues with that anytime lately.

没错，所以我们搞定一小包大麻没问题，但如果你想买一公斤可卡因，就有点麻烦了。

Right, so we're good for a small bag of weed, but if you want to buy a kilo of cocaine, we've got a slight problem.

是的。

Yep.

不过这种处理能力会有的。

But that capacity will come.

是的，我觉得这只是时间问题，让开发人员解决用户遇到的痛点就行。

Yeah I mean that's really just a matter of time and kind of letting the devs work out the kinks that are problem points for users.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

关于UTXO我还需要了解什么？

What else do I need to know about UTXOs?

手续费绝对是个重点。

Well, fees are definitely a really big point.

我认为用户真正需要考虑的有两点。

And two things I think that users really need to think about here.

第一，当你从交易所提现购买的资产时。

One, when you withdraw money that you bought on an exchange.

你知道，现在大家都痴迷于囤积聪（比特币最小单位），就像用新说法谈论定投一样。

You know, like, everybody's obsessed these days with stacking sats, like the the the new way to talk about dollar cost averaging.

而且，这可能会带来很多长期问题，尤其是对那些每周只存一小部分工资进去的人来说。

And, like, that can present a lot of long term problems, especially for people who are just kind of putting a little bit of their paycheck in every week.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果你每周存50美元的话。

If you're doing, like, $50.

没错。

Yeah.

我是说，想象一下你每周往比特币里存50美元，然后立即取出并创建一个50美元的UTXO。

I mean, like, you know, imagine every week you put $50 into Bitcoin and then you immediately withdraw that and make a $50 UTXO.

再想象你一整年每周都这么做。

And imagine you do that every week for a year.

现在你就有52.5个UTXO了。

Now you have $52.50 UTXOs.

从长远来看这个问题——假设这个人对抗审查支付根本不感兴趣。

And really think about that in the long term, like let's say that this person isn't really interested in censorship resistant payments.

他们来这儿不是为了见证互联网货币，只是单纯在投资某个东西。

Like they're not here because they want to see the money of the internet, they're just investing in something.

这种人想的只是：我能扭转财务状况。

Like this is just somebody going, I can turn my financial situation around.

他们计划未来某天全部抛售掉。

And they're just planning on selling all of that at some point.

我问你个问题，在Shinobi里构建交易时，手续费是基于数据量的。

Let me ask you something, In Shinobi, terms of building a transaction, your fees are based on data.

我尽量把这个问题表述清楚。

How much of I'm gonna try and articulate this as best I can.

这些数据中有多少是交易必须包含的标准内容？每个UTXO又会给数据量带来多少增量增加？

How much of that data is like a standard amount of stuff that has to go into a transaction, and and how much does each UTXO incrementally increase the size of that data?

举个例子，如果是一个UTXO和你实际上是两个UTXO，数据量是不是就翻倍了？

Like for example, if it's one UTXO and you you is two UTXOs essentially doubling the amount of data?

还是说有一个标准的基础数据量构成交易，每个UTXO再额外增加10%左右的数据？

Or is there, like, a standard base amount data that builds a transaction and each UTXO adds, 10% more or something?

嗯，实际上，这个问题有点复杂。

Well, actually, that that that's a little complicated.

我们可以稍后再深入讨论这个。

Think, we can get into that in a in a minute.

好的。

Okay.

但是，让我们回到之前假设的SAT囤币者身上。

But, you know, like, to go back to the the hypothetical SAT stacker.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

你知道，他只是在投资。

You know, he he's just investing.

他计划以更高价格一次性卖出，每周买入50美元并提现生成新UTXO。

He is planning on selling this all at a higher price, and he's bought $50 every week and withdrawn that and made a new UTXO.

假设他这样做了一年，现在想全部卖出，就需要把50个UTXO打包到单笔交易发回交易所。

Well, let's say he did that for a year and he wants to sell everything now, now he has 50 UTXOs that he has to put into a single transaction to send back to the exchange to sell it.

就像之前说的，手续费与转账金额完全无关，只与输入输出数量有关。

And like we went over earlier, the fees have absolutely nothing to do with how much money is moving, it's how many inputs there are, how many outputs.

所以这个人的手续费会远高于每月操作只有12个UTXO的情况。

So that person's fee is going to be way larger than if he only pulled it off every month and only had 12 UTXOs.

在我看来这是非常值得思考的问题，要知道2017年的手续费情况。

And so that is a really important thing to think about in my mind because you know, for somebody who is just investing in this space, like, look at what happened in 2017 with fees.

那只是未来情况的预演。

Like, that's only a preview of things to come.

那么这个人持有的比特币中，有多大比例需要支付网络费用才能转回交易所出售？

So how much of that person's like, what percentage of all that Bitcoin they have are they gonna have to pay in network fees just to move it back to the exchange to sell it?

这笔费用会相当高。

It's gonna be a pretty big fee.

嗯，我认为

Well, I think

如果你只是

if you only did

一个月做一次

it once in

这样的话，就像一年有52周，如果他每周都提现一次，就会有52个UTXO。

a month, though, that would be like, you know, if like 52 weeks in a year, he has 52 UTXOs because he withdrew every week.

如果他每月只提现一次，那就只有12个。

If he only did it once a month, that's only 12.

是啊。

Yeah.

估计只有四分之一。

Guess has a fourth of that.

我想他们还是可以每周在交易所买入，然后每月集中提现一次。这样虽然我们常说'不是你的密钥就不是你的比特币'，但交易所风险每次最多只有三周的量，现在来看风险相当低了。

And I guess they could still buy every week on the exchange and then just do with the withdrawal once a month, and then they're only I know we talk about not your keys, not your Bitcoin, but that exchange risk, they're only ever risking up to three weeks at a time, which I would say these days is pretty low risk.

没错。

Yeah.

正是。

Exactly.

这基本上就是关键点。

That that's kind of the major point.

就像，你知道的，确实应该自己保管比特币。

Like, I you know, yeah, you should absolutely custody your own Bitcoin.

你应该将它们存储在自己的密钥上，但也不该走极端，比如每次买5美元比特币就立即提现。因为取决于你持有比特币的目的——如果你是长期持有作为货币使用，那么几年后这个5美元的UTXO可能价值100美元，你只需逐个花掉，这或许不成问题。

You should store them on your own keys, but you shouldn't take that to the extreme of, like, every time you buy $5 of Bitcoin you're instantly withdrawing it because depending on why you're here in Bitcoin, if you're actually here to use this as money long term to hold on to it, maybe that won't be such of an issue if that $5 UTXO is worth $100 in a couple years and you're just going to spend them one by one.

但如果你只是为了日后出售而投资，累积的手续费将大幅削减你的利润。

But if you're here investing in things just to sell later, that's going to add up to a massive cost that's going to cut into the profit that you make.

但我们能否尝试将其情境化？

But can we try and contextualize that?

就像我说的，当我创建交易时手续费变动，我完全不清楚会涉及多少个输出。

Because like I say, so when I create transactions and my fees change, I've really got no idea how many outputs go in.

而且正如我所说，我根本不知道如果分成1个还是5个输出，会对费用产生多大影响。

And I've got no idea, like I say, if I was to make it of one or five, how much of an impact that would have on the fees?

比如基础手续费是10美元，分成2个输出会是11美元还是15.02美元？

Like if the fee was $10 would it be $11 with $2 or would it be $15.02?

我完全没概念。虽然你说这很复杂，但有没有简化的方法？

I've just got no and I know you say it's complicated, but is there any way of simplifying it?

最简单的思考方式是考虑你使用的地址类型。

Well, the simplest way to think about this would be think about the type of address that you're using.

比如以数字1开头的旧版传统地址。

Like, you have the old legacy addresses that start with one.

对，还有Bech32之类的。

Yeah, betchthirty two, etcetera.

嗯，

Yeah,

还有以数字3开头的旧版多签地址，以及Bech32隔离见证地址。

and then you have the old multisigs that start with three, you have back 32 segwit stuff.

这些基本上都属于不同的脚本类型。

Like, each of these are are pretty much different script types.

所以我们最初讨论时说过：可以把UTXO想象成可编程的银行票据，某种程度上模糊了现金票据和银行账户的界限。

And so, you know, we kind of started this off talking about, you know, think of a UTXO as like a programmable banknote, kind of like the blurring between that cash note and a bank account.

有趣的是，你可以在那里添加某种锁定条件。

Well, the interesting thing is there, you can add kind of locking conditions there.

就像，UTXO不是简单地交给某个人。

Like, a UTXO isn't just like like handed to somebody.

你必须解锁它。

You have to unlock that.

最基本的锁类型就是用私钥生成的签名。

And the most basic type of lock is, you know, the signature that you make with a private key.

所以当你比较非隔离见证和隔离见证时，这些签名的费用是不同的。

So when you look at, you know, non SegWit versus SegWit, there's differences in the fees that you pay for those signatures.

因为你要记住输入和输出，这是看待交易的基本方式，但这些输入还需要包含解锁交易的证明。

Because you have to remember inputs and outputs, that's the basic way to look at a transaction, but those inputs also have to have the proof that you unlocked the transaction.

所以你必须在输入上附加那个签名。

So you have to have that signature attached to that input.

正因如此，交易中的输入实际上比输出要大。

And because of that, inputs are actually bigger than the outputs in a transaction.

你知道，简单的传统方式与隔离见证相比，隔离见证的签名数据在费用上是有折扣的。

And you know with just the simple legacy versus SegWit, there's actually a discount in the fee for the signature data with SegWit.

所以像使用隔离见证地址而非传统地址这样简单的改变，就能因为签名数据量的折扣而支付更少费用。

So just something as simple as using a SegWit address instead of a legacy address, you're going to pay less in fees because you get that signature discount for the data size by using a SegWit signature instead of a normal one.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

我知道你懂这些，我也明白有不同的地址类型。

I know you get this stuff, and I understand there are different addresses.

我理解，我甚至在一些钱包里看到过。

And I understand, I even see it in some of the wallets.

他们可能在Blockstream Explorer上。

They maybe it's on the Blockstream Explorer.

他们说，哦，如果你用了隔离见证地址，手续费能省52%左右。

They say, oh, if you used a SegWit address, you would have saved 52% on fees or something or other.

我见过这类情况，不过咱们现在就用隔离见证地址吧。

I've I've seen some of this stuff, but let's just go with SegWit addresses for now.

再问下，有没有办法从上下文理解，比如一个输出对比50个输出，可能要多付多少手续费？

Again, is there any way of contextualizing, you know, one output versus 50 outputs, how much more you potentially could pay in fees?

嗯，我是说，就把一个带签名的输入想成一个手续费单位。

Well, I mean, it's just think of one input with a signature as one fee unit.

懂吗？

You know?

实际上这里的计算远没这么简单，但用户理解的话，每加一个输入就多加一个手续费单位。

And it's it's not the the math here is nowhere near this simple in reality, but, you know, for just a user thinking about it, every input you add, add another fee unit.

所以更准确的说法是按数据字节数来算。

And so it's kind of, like, per byte of data, like, the real way to think about that.

你支付的费用是按包含的每个字节计算的，这些数据包括输出、输入以及附在输入上证明你有权花费的签名。

You're paying a fee for each byte of data you include, and that data is counting the outputs, the inputs, and the signatures that you are attaching to the inputs to prove you can actually spend this.

比如说你想给交易添加新输出。

And so, let's say you want to add new outputs to a transaction.

打个比方，假设那只要半个手续费单位。

You know, for arbitrary argument, let's say that's only half a fee unit.

所以每加一个新输出，就要多付半个手续费单位。

So each new output that you add adds half of a fee unit that you have to pay for this transaction.

但输入因为要附加签名，就得付整个手续费单位。

But for the input, because you have to attach a signature to it, that adds a whole fee unit.

所以输入比输出越多，对提高手续费的影响就越大。

So the the more inputs you have versus outputs, that's going to have a larger effect on raising the fee.

我要在这件事上稍微推动你一下。

I'm gonna push you a little bit on this.

好的。

Okay.

我正在发送价值50美元的比特币，手续费大概是5美元。

I'm sending $50 of Bitcoin, and my fee is, say, $5.

不。

No.

抱歉。

Sorry.

抱歉。

Sorry.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我正在发送一笔约2600美元的比特币交易，这是一个单独的UTXO；或者我正在构建同样的交易，金额是52.50美元。

I'm sending a single what is that, about $2,600 of Bitcoin, which is a single UTXO, or I'm sending the same transaction build over $52.50 dollars.

你知道这会让手续费增加多少吗？

Have you got any idea how much that would increase the fee?

哪怕粗略估计也行？

Does it take it from like even a guesstimate?

我们是在讨论手续费会增加一美元左右吗？

Are we talking about it'll increase it by a dollar?

我只是想量化这个增幅，因为我觉得很多听众会采纳这个建议。

I'm just trying to contextualise how much, because I think a lot of people will listen to this and they will take it on board.

好的，这个我可以马上处理。

Okay, that's something I can do straight away.

如果我在进行定投，就应该在每周买入的同时，每月从交易所提现一次。

If I'm dollar cost averaging, I should definitely do it once a month as a withdrawal from the exchange whilst buying weekly.

但我还是无法理解那52笔不同交易会让费用增加多少。

But I still can't contextualise how much the fee will increase by having those 52 different transactions.

我不知道是在10美元费用上再加1美元，还是再加20美元。

I don't know if it's another dollar on a $10 fee, or if it's another $20

嗯，你知道，这就是问题的关键。

Well, you know, that that's kind of the thing.

这其实和美元金额没有直接关系。

It doesn't really have anything to do with dollars.

关键在于数据量。

It has to do with the data.

假设这个输入数据是100字节左右，费用大约是1美元。

So let's say this input is a 100 bytes, somewhere around there, and the fee for that is a dollar.

但你要记住输出数据也是其中的一部分。

Well, you have to remember the outputs are part of that too.

嗯。

Mhmm.

假设仅这个输入数据的费用就是50美分。

So let's say the the fee just for that input is 50¢.

如果再加一个输入数据，就要再付50美分。

If you add another input, you're gonna pay another 50¢.

再加一个输入数据，就再增加50美分。

And if you add another input, you're gonna add another 50¢.

明白了。

Okay.

你知道，以此类推。

And, you know, so on and so forth.

但如果你看输出数据，比如说你想在一笔交易中进行多次支付。

But if you look at the output, you know, let's say you want to make multiple payments in a single transaction.

假设每笔输出的费用只有四分之一。

Well, let's say the fee for the output is only a quarter.

所以每增加一个新输出，费用就会再增加四分之一。

So every new output you add is gonna add another quarter to the fee.

虽然目前这不是最大的问题，但你也在考虑长期影响。

And whilst this is not the hugest issue right now, you're also thinking long term.

比如，如果你持有这些五年，我们可能会面临交易费用变得相当昂贵的阶段。

Like, if you've held onto these for five years, we could get to a stage where transactions are actually quite expensive.

我们之前有过50美元的交易。

We've had $50 transactions before.

我很清楚你期望的交易速度会影响手续费。

I'm quite aware that the speed of what you want the transaction impacts the fee.

我知道下一个区块的手续费可能在8到10美元，但你可以接受这个范围。

I know the next block could be like an $8 to $10 fee, but you could have something there.

如果你不介意等待一周左右，手续费可以非常低。

If you didn't mind it taking about a week, your fee could be quite low.

那么是否值得偶尔合并UTXO，即使需要一两周时间来完成？

Does it make sense therefore to sometimes consolidate UTXOs but be quite happy if it takes a week, two weeks to happen?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

但你必须考虑隐私问题。

But the thing you have to think about there is then the privacy.

因为你知道，极低的手续费和合并UTXO，从长远来看当手续费上涨时能为你省钱。

Because, you know, that really low fee and condensing UTXOs, that could wind up saving you money in the long term when fees go even higher.

但你必须考虑清楚，我是否在意把这些UTXO关联起来？

But you have to make sure to think here, like, do I care about tying these UTXOs together?

所以你需要权衡省钱和保持隐私之间的平衡。

So you you kind of have to balance saving money versus maintaining your privacy.

所以我想这很大程度上归结为养成查看和管理你的UTXO的习惯。

So I guess a lot of this comes down to just getting in the habit of looking at your UTXOs, trying to manage your UTXOs.

我认为这就像第一次学习练习一样，你只需要观察它们。

And I guess this will be a learning exercise like the first time you'll do it, you'll just look at them.

第二次你就会明白，比如，我不希望这些被绑定在一起。

The second time you'll go, okay, I now know, for example, I don't want these ones tied together.

但这组，我这里按美元成本平均计算的组，我很乐意合并它们。

But this group, my dollar cost average group here, I'm happy to consolidate these.

但在我看来，这最终取决于使用它们的经验，这是需要时间积累的。

But it sounds to me this has just come down to the experience of using them, and that's something that will come over time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你知道，这确实是非常重要的事情需要理解。

But, you know, it it it's a really important thing to to just understand.

而且，我想如果我已经让你对费用问题感到满意，那么还有另一个主要方面我想探讨。

And, you know, I I think if I've I've answered the fee issues to your satisfaction, there's kind of one more major aspect of this I wanna get into.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的UTXO都带有锁定。

So your UTXOs all have a lock on them.

就像我说的，最简单的锁定就是来自私钥的签名。

And, you know, like like I said, the the simplest lock is just a signature from a private key.

这里另一个需要考虑的重要事项是：你需要保管哪些数据才能找到属于你的UTXO，并花费它们。

So another important thing to consider here is what data do you have to keep safe to be able to, one, find the UTXOs that are yours, and two, spend them.

在普通情况下，比如单签地址设置，你只需要保管好你的助记词。

Now in the case of just a normal, you know, one, address key setup, like a single SIG address, all you have to keep is your WordSeed.

就这样。

That's it.

你可以保留你的助记词，可以找到你的币，可以花你的币，这些都很好。

You keep your WordSeed, you can find your coins, you can spend your coins, that's all good.

但除了提供一个私钥签名外，你还可以在UTXO上设置更复杂的锁定条件。

But there are a lot more complicated locks that you can put on a UTXO than just give me a signature from one private key.

等一下。

Hold on.

我能插一句吗？

Can I just jump in there one second?

如果你丢失了钱包，不得不通过私钥恢复，会不会丢失所有的标签信息？

If you, say, lost your wallet and had to restore it from a private key, could you have lost, would you lose all your labels?

是的，如果你没有保留原来的钱包文件。

Yes, if you did not keep the wallet file that was in.

好的，所以还得保留钱包文件。

Okay, so that's another thing, have to keep the wallet file.

如果你把钱包文件本身离线备份了，别人能用那个钱包文件盗取你的比特币吗？

So if you kept the backup of the wallet file itself somewhere offline, can somebody ever access and steal your Bitcoin with that wallet file?

还是说这个文件只是用来重新标记你的UTXO？

Or is it more just a file that re kind of relabel all of your UTXOs?

这个要看具体情况。

Well, that that depends.

你是创建了一个包含私钥的钱包文件，还是使用了硬件钱包只导入了公钥，比如观察钱包那种只能查看余额的？

Did you make a wallet file that has private keys on that computer, or did you use something like a hardware wallet and then just import the public keys, like a watch only wallet, that just lets you find your balances.

不是。

No.

我是说区别在于，如果你直接打开Electrum创建钱包，那这个钱包文件确实包含私钥，需要妥善保管。

If you actually well, I'm saying, like, the the difference between, like, if you open up Electrum and just make an Electrum wallet and that's it, then yes, that wallet file has your private keys, and you need to keep that safe.

但如果你用冷钱包创建后，只把冷钱包的文件导入Electrum，那个文件里是没有私钥的。

But if you say, you know, made a wallet on a cold card and then imported that, file off the cold card into Electrum, your private keys are not in that file.

它只包含你的地址信息。

All it has is your addresses.

所以最坏的情况是有人入侵了它，然后知道你拥有多少币，哪些币是你的。

So the worst that could happen is somebody compromises that and then knows how many coins you have, which coins are yours.

这实际上取决于你如何生成私钥，以及你是用电脑软件仅查看币余额，还是用它来实际签署交易。

And that really comes down to how you you generated your private key and whether you're using the software on your computer to just watch your coins or if you're using that to actually sign transactions.

我们显然已进入高级领域，这里很容易让人犯错。

We're definitely in the field of advanced stuff here where it would be easy for people to make mistakes.

我相信钱包会随着时间改进，变得更易用，很多操作会自动化或在使用时得到解释。

I over time wallets will improve and get easier to use, and a lot of this stuff will be done for you or explained to you as you use it.

但面对这种复杂程度，我自己也会相当紧张。

But I would be myself quite nervous about this level of complexity.

这其实正是我在提问前想探讨的问题。

Well, that's kind of what what I was trying to get at before the question.

比如，单签地址只需要你的助记词种子。

Like, you know, with a single sig address, all you need is your word seed.

但看看越来越流行的多重签名方案。

But look at something like multisig, which is getting more and more popular.

除非你拥有该钱包所有助记词种子，否则单独一个种子是不够的。

That word seed, unless you have all of the word seeds in that wallet, is not enough.

实际上你需要拥有多重签名中每个参与方的公钥，否则将无法定位那些币。

Like, you actually have to have the public keys for each, word seed in that Multisig, otherwise, you will not be able to find those coins.

你可能拥有足够的密钥来签署交易，但如果没有构成该多重签名地址的所有公钥，你甚至找不到那些币。

You know, you you might have enough keys in the Multisig to sign for them, but if you don't have all the public keys that make that Multisig address, you can't even find those coins.

你无法为那个UTXO组装锁定脚本，自然也无法用现有密钥签署。

You can't put together the lock script for that UTXO to even be able to sign it with the keys you still have.

因此这对任何开始使用比单签地址更高级功能的人来说，都是长期至关重要的认知——毕竟人们已习惯仅靠助记词就能解决一切。

And so this is a really, really important thing going forward long term for anybody who starts doing anything more advanced than just a single SIG address, because people are just used to all I need is that seed.

如果你有一个三选二的多重签名钱包，丢失了其中一个种子词，并且没有保存该种子对应的公钥地址，那么你的币就彻底丢失了。

Well, if you have a two of three multi SIG and you lose one of those seeds and you did not save the public address for that seed, you just lost your coins.

因为你永远无法重建那个锁定脚本，也无法证明自己能解锁它，毕竟你缺少解锁脚本所需的部分组件。

Because you will never be able to reconstruct that locking script and then prove that you can unlock it because you don't have all the parts of that unlocking script.

这就是Carta的精妙之处。

That's what's quite neat about Carta.

比如你使用三选五或多选五的多重签名方案时，其实不需要备份所有种子词。即使丢失一个密钥，也可以通过其他四个中的三个来恢复新密钥，将所有资产转移到新钱包的新地址里。

So say if you've the three or five multisig, you don't have to back up the seeds, but if you lose one, you can restore a new key, and using three of the other four, you can move that all into the new wallet, into the new address.

这设计非常有趣，因为备份种子词本身在某种程度上就是安全隐患。他们实际上鼓励用户不要备份种子词——毕竟你根本用不到它们。

It's quite an interesting thing because obviously, backing up seeds is a security risk itself in some ways, and they actually encourage you not to back up your seeds because of this because you don't need them.

不知道你是否了解这个机制。

I don't know if you're aware of this.

嗯。

Yeah.

我...我了解这种设置。

I I I'm aware of the setup.

说实话我个人不太喜欢这种方式，但我理解这样设计是为了降低用户的使用门槛。

Honestly, I am personally not very fond of that, but I understand why it's set up that way to kind of make things easier for people.

你看，这其实也是CASA采用这种架构的部分原因。

And, you know, that that's, you know, that's kind of part of why CASA is set up that way.

因为当你从单签地址升级到多签时，除了保管好助记词外，还需要操心其他事情。

Because, you know, you move from a single SIG address to a multisig, and now you have this other thing that you have to worry about besides just keep the word seed safe.

而CASA的整个体系就是为提供全程护航而设计的。

And CASA is entirely set up to kind of hold your hand and safeguard you there.

不过现在越来越多人开始自行搭建多签方案，这已成为当下的流行趋势。

But, you know, there are a lot of people starting to do multisig on their own, and that's becoming a really popular thing these days.

这一点非常值得深入理解。

And, like, that's really important to understand.

要知道，随着时间的推移，比特币升级后能做的事情越复杂，用户就需要考虑更多这类问题。

And, you know, the the more we go on in time and the more complicated things that that Bitcoin is upgraded to do, the more users are going to have to think about this type of stuff.

比如单靠助记词可能不足以保护你的比特币。

Like that word seed might not be enough to safeguard your coins.

可能还有其他数据需要你跟踪保存，以便日后使用这些比特币，其中很多数据无法仅凭一个助记词重新生成。

There might be other data that you have to keep track of, other data that you have to have around to go spend those coins later, and a lot of that data is not something that you can just regenerate from one word seed.

比如Taproot就是个例子。

Like, you know, Taproot would be an example.

现在很多人讨论用Taproot实现安全恢复甚至遗产继承等功能，这些隐藏在Taproot中的额外花费条件和解锁脚本——如果你开始编写这类复杂的UTXO脚本，就无法仅凭助记词重新生成继承恢复路径。

You know, there's a lot of talk of using Taproot for things like, you know, security recovery, even things like inheritance, and all of those extra kind of spending conditions or unlock scripts that are hidden in Taproot, if you start making complex UTXO scripts like that, you know, you can't just regenerate the recovery path for your inheritance from a word seed.

你必须实际保存这些信息，一旦丢失，就永远无法通过这个隐藏的继承路径使用这些比特币了。

You actually have to save that information and if you lose it, then you lose the ability to ever spend those coins with this hidden inheritance path.

这就回到你只能用公开可见的普通密钥来花费的问题。

Like it goes back to you can only spend this with the plain key that you can publicly see.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得这已经进入某些过于复杂的领域了，所以我认为需要分不同层级。

Think I think that it just gets into the realm of some of this stuff's being too complicated, which is why I think there's different levels.

有些人只适合使用像Carcer这样的工具就足够了。

There's certain people who are only gonna get as far as using something like Carcern that will suit them.

而像你这样能自己管理多重签名的人，或是其他技术更强的人则另当别论。

There's gonna be other people like yourself who can manage their own multi sigs or other more technical people who can.

我认为Carcer对某些人来说是个不错的折中选择，但总存在这些权衡取舍对吧？

Carcer I think is that good halfway house for certain people but there's always these trade offs right?

还有其他要补充的吗

Is there anything else on

这真的无法避免。

There's really no way around it.

我想我们已经完成了大部分提纲内容。

I think we've got through pretty much most of the outline.

所以对我来说，总结就是UTXO是我之前忽略的东西。

So I would say for me, like the summary of this is that UTXO is something I've ignored previously.

我大概知道它们是什么，对它们有基本的了解。

Like I kind of know what they are, what they were, and had a mild understanding of them.

但就像，我为什么要关心这个？我用我的钱包，选择给Shinobi发送比特币，钱包会帮我搞定一切。

But like, why would I ever need to actually care because I use my wallet, I choose to send Shinobi some Bitcoin, it just does it all for me.

但实际上在手续费方面，有几个值得思考的有趣点，比如美元成本平均法。

But actually, this thing in terms of fees, there's a couple of interesting things for me definitely to think about, that worth thinking about, that dollar cost averaging.

我偶尔会这样做，出于各种原因买100美元的比特币。

I've done it occasionally where I've just bought like $100 of Bitcoin here or there just for whatever reason.

我没想到未来可能会出现钱包里有很多这种交易的情况。

It's not crossed my mind that future situation whereby I might have lots of these in a wallet.

这会很有意思。

So that's going be interesting.

我很想看看我钱包里的UTXO。

I'm interested just to have a look at the UTXOs in my wallet.

我觉得这会非常有趣。

I think that will be super interesting.

就像我跟你说过的，出于税务考虑，如果要卖比特币，我得谨慎选择卖出哪些，因为资本利得税的问题（如果我住在征收资本利得税的国家）。

Also, like I said to you in terms of tax purposes, if I ever have to sell Bitcoin, I would want to be careful about which ones I sold because of cap gains if I was living in a country where I had cap gains.

然后我觉得是的。

And then I think yeah.

我认为这些确实是几个非常重要的点。

I think those those are a couple of really important things.

我认为下一步是尝试一些东西，我想我会试试Spectre，因为我听说过很多关于它的信息。

I think the next step is for me to have a play with something like I think I'm gonna have a play with Spectre because I've heard so much about it.

我想我会试试看，看看效果如何。

I think I'm gonna have a play with that and see how I get on.

是的。

Yeah.

我个人还没用过，但我已经浏览过文档和所有功能。

I I haven't personally used it yet, but I've, like, dove through the the docs and all the features.

那确实是一个非常灵活的钱包，特别是如果有人想自己尝试多签而不是通过服务，那绝对是个不错的起点。

That that is a really solid flexible wallet, especially, like, if anybody wants to start playing around with multisig themselves instead of a service around that, that definitely looks like a good place to start.

好的兄弟，听着，这次交流非常有帮助。

Alright man, well listen, this has been very helpful.

我觉得人们会从中获益良多。

I think people will get a lot from this.

我很期待看看下个月我们要做什么。

I'm interested to see what we're going do next month now.

好的，老规矩，告诉大家如何了解更多信息。

Okay, listen, as ever, tell people how to find out more.

告诉他们你的店铺在哪里。

Tell them where your shop is.

店铺可以在bitcoinshirt.co找到，如果你想用比特币买些周边商品的话。

Well, the shop you can find at bitcoinshirt.co if you wanna send some sats over for some Bitcoin swag.

你可以在Twitter上找到我，用户名是brian_trolls（带个z）。

You can find me on Twitter at brian underscore trolls with a z.

我还和我的搭档Janine一起做了个小播客。

And I also do a small podcast with, my cohost Janine.

如果你对技术细节很感兴趣，可以收听Block Digest这个节目。

You can find that Block Digest if you feel like diving very deeply into the technical side of things.

不错。

Nice.

不错。

Nice.

好的，老兄。

Alright, man.

嗯，听着。

Well, listen.

非常感谢。

Appreciate this.

非常有帮助。

Very helpful.

对我非常有用。

Very useful for me.

下个月见，老兄。

And I'll see you next month, man.

嗯。

Mhmm.

期待下次见面。

Looking forward to it.

好的。

Okay.

你觉得那个怎么样？

What did you think of that?

我真的很喜欢这些节目。

I do really enjoy these shows.

我确实认为Shinobi是合作的最佳人选，因为他精通技术细节，而我也能提出不同意见。

I do think Shinobi is a great person to do this with because he does understand the tech in detail, but I am able to push back on him.

我可以对他说，Shinobi，我只是觉得大多数人可能用不上这个功能。

I am able to say that to him, look, Shinobi, I just don't think most people are gonna be able to use that.

但我从中收获颇丰。

But I got a lot from this.

像币种选择和合并UTXO这类事情，我之前确实没怎么关注过。

Things like coin selection and consolidating my UTXOs is something I haven't really paid much attention to before.

我的意思是，我有时会大笔买入比特币，有时又只是零零散散地买50或100美元。

I mean, I've been sometimes buying huge amounts of Bitcoin, and other times, I've been buying, like, $50,100 bucks here or there.

显然，这对我的UTXO状况非常不利。

And, obviously, that really isn't good for my UTXO.

所以这是我从中学到的重要一课。

So that was something I really took away from this.

我之后会抽时间研究其他几款软件的币种选择功能。

I will be taking some look at some other bits of software at some point, considering coin selection.

我认为这在涉及税务和比特币出售时绝对是个关键问题。

I think that's something that's definitely relevant when it comes around to taxis and if you are looking to sell Bitcoin.

不过我觉得这些节目会非常棒。

But I think these shows are gonna be great.

我真的很感激Shinobi的付出。

I really appreciate Shinobi's work.

他提前做了所有准备工作。

He did all the work upfront to prepare for this.

下个月...我记不清我们要做什么了。

I think next month I I can't remember what we're gonna do.

我们可能会探讨节点相关的内容。

I think we might even look at nodes.

但我觉得这些内容对像我这样技术不精通的人会很有用，所以请大家持续关注。

But I think they're gonna be really useful for people like me who aren't super technical, so keep an eye out for them.

总之，感谢你的聆听。

Anyway, thanks for listening.

如果你想联系我，我的邮箱地址是hello@whatbitcoindid.com。

If you do wanna reach out to me, my email address is hello@whatbitcoindid.com.

如果想支持这个节目，在iTunes上写评论很有帮助，只需两分钟。

If you wanna support the show, reviews on iTunes help, only takes two minutes.

如果你能这么做，我真的很感激。

I really appreciate you if you go and do that.

除此之外，去看看Defiance吧。

Outside of that, go and check out defiance.

我们有个非常有趣的节目叫《无国界世界》，正在探讨人们如何选择居住地，研究特许城市，以及对民主的影响。

We've got a very interesting show up there called a borderless world right now looking at how people are considering where they're going to live, looking at charter cities, also the impact upon democracy.

可以在defiance.news上观看。

That's available at defiance.news.

祝你有愉快的一周，我们周五见。

Have a great week, and I will see you all on Friday.