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是时候说出真相了。
It's time for the truth.
真相
The truth
一直在衰退。
has is been in decline.
英国正在衰退。
It's Britain is in decline.
这也很真实。
That's also true.
从1970年到2007年，实际工资每十年下降三分之一。
From 1970 to 2007, real wages went down by one third every ten years.
从那以后，工资停滞不前。
Since then, they flatlined.
在千禧年之交，英国人的平均收入是普通选民的两倍多。
At the turn of the millennium, the average Brit was earning more than twice as much as the average poll.
到2031年，我们预计将变得更穷。
By 2031, we're on track to be poorer.
除了伦敦和东南部地区，我们的经济状况更接近保加利亚，而不是德国。
Outside of London and the Southeast, our economy is closer to Bulgaria's than to Germany's.
如今，18至30岁的年轻人是第一批收入低于父母的英国人。
Today, 18 to 30 year olds are the first Britons to earn less than their parents.
不知出于什么原因，盖尼科决定退出保守党，转投改革党。
Generic, for whatever reason, has decided to quit the conservatives and join reform.
我们知道他必须为自己的错误承担责任。
We know that he needs to own his mistakes.
对吧？
Right?
但你看着他，真的觉得他怎么样？
But is he on do you look at him and go, do know what?
这个盖尼科，他看起来像是个真诚的人。
That Generic, he seems like an authentic guy.
他看起来是个正直的人，关心这个国家和社区。
He seems like a stand up guy who cares about this country and community.
或者他看了看保守党，心想：好吧。
Or has he looked at the conservatives and said, alright.
我是这个已死政党的领袖热门人选。
I'm the favorite to become leader of a party that's dead.
我该如何在政坛继续下去？
How do I stay in politics?
我该如何在政坛继续下去？
How do I stay in politics?
如果我加入改革党，一旦他们获胜，我立刻就会成为部长，而且当奈杰尔卸任后，我很可能成为下一任领袖。
Well, if I join reform, I'm instantly gonna be a minister when they, you know, win, and I'm probably a good chance of being the next guy if, you when Nigel's done.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎来到首相问答时间。
Welcome to PMQs.
希望你今天过得不错。
Hope you're doing well.
我是主持人彼得·麦科马克。
I'm your host, Peter McCormack.
我请来了你的那位激进派人物。
I've got your boy, the radical.
康纳，小子，你最近怎么样？
Connor, how you doing, boy?
我挺好的。
I'm good.
你可以你
You could You
别再这么叫我了。
gotta stop calling me that.
你本可以为节目打扮得正式一点。
You could dress up a bit for the show.
可以随意一点。
Could be casual.
我都还没到45岁呢，老兄。
I'm not 45, man.
我真希望我有45岁。
I wish I had 45.
我真希望我45岁。
I wish I was 45.
好吧。
Alright.
政治的世界。
World of politics.
昨天，威斯敏斯特最不是秘密的秘密——罗伯特·通用——实际上被凯米·贝登诺克逐出了保守党，几个小时后，他又与改革党举行了新闻发布会，正式叛变。
Yesterday, the worst kept secret in Westminster, Robert Generic, was actually kicked out to the Conservative Party by Kemi by Kemi Baydenok, and then a few hours later, had a press conference with reform, and he has defected.
而且甲板上的椅子又在重新摆放了。
And the deck chairs are getting rearranged again.
我真的不知道。
And I don't know.
我不知道你怎么想，洛特。
I don't know about you, Lot.
我不知道你怎么想，康纳。
I don't know about you, Connor.
我真的对这一切感到厌倦了。
I'm just so tired of all of this.
只要一看，就觉得这太棒了，这太容易了。
It's so easy to just look at it and go, this is amazing.
这太好了。
This is great.
这对改革来说是好事，但对保守党来说却是坏事。
This is great for reform or this is terrible for the conservatives.
我只是觉得，你今天早上给我发了鲁珀特·洛的那条推文，整个事情都该结束了。
I just think it's like that you sent me that tweet this morning from Rupert Lowe, And I'm like, just the whole thing needs to go.
我不想坐在那儿，感觉太恶心了。
I don't wanna sit there and It's slimy.
嗯，确实如此。
Well Yeah.
恶心、狡猾，全是暗箱操作。
Slimy, snaky, everything's backhanders.
还是那批人。
It's the same people.
没有真相，也没有荣誉。
There's no truth and honor.
是的。
Yeah.
我刚才在看这个。
I I was watching it.
所以我一直在看，我们会播放他新闻发布会的片段，因为里面有一个部分让我特别感兴趣。
So I was watching it, and we're gonna bring up the clip of his press conference because there was one really fascinating part of it for me.
他说他一开始就是冲着钱去的。
He said he started on the money.
这是我们经常讨论的一个话题。
It's a thing we talk about a lot.
我很在意。
I care about.
除非一个政党解决债务问题，否则我不会投票。
I'm not gonna vote unless a party deals with debt.
我不会投票，如果一个政党不解决通货膨胀问题的话。
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna vote if a party doesn't deal with inflation.
我厌倦了这种政治轮盘赌，政党们承诺希望与改变，而我们得到的却越来越穷。
I'm I'm bored of this merry-go-round political parties who promise hope and change, and all we get is poorer and poorer.
我再也不想玩这种愚蠢的游戏了。
I'm not gonna play this stupid game anymore.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
所以，约翰，我们开始吧。
So, like, John, let's do it.
我们先看这段视频，然后再谈那些胡说八道。
Let's start with the clip and then talk about the bullshit.
这是Generics与奈杰尔的新闻发布会。
So this is Generics press conference with reform with Nigel.
晚上好，女士们、先生们。
Well, good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
谢谢，奈杰尔。
Thank you, Nigel.
是时候说出真相了。
It's time for the truth.
真相。
Truth.
一直在衰退。
Has been in decline.
英国正在衰退。
Britain is in decline.
这也是事实。
That's also true.
从1970年到2007年，实际工资每十年下降三分之一。
From 1970 to 2007, real wages went down by one third every ten years.
从那以后，工资水平停滞不前。
Since then, they flatlined.
在千禧年之交，英国人的平均收入是普通民众的两倍多。
At the turn of the millennium, the average Brit was earning more than twice as much as the average poll.
到2031年，我们预计将变得更穷。
By 2031, we are on track to be poorer.
除了伦敦和东南部地区，我们的经济状况更接近保加利亚，而非德国。
Outside of London and the Southeast, our economy is closer to Bulgaria's than to Germany's.
如今，18至30岁的年轻人是第一批收入低于父母的英国人。
Today, 18 to 30 year olds are the first Britons to earn less than their parents.
这里的房价比任何其他经合组织国家都高。
Houses cost more here than in any other OECD country.
我们拥有发达国家中最高的能源价格。
We have the highest energy prices in the developed world.
自2003年以来，我们的重工业规模已减少了一半以上。
Our heavy industry has more than halved since 2003.
我们的服务业正面临人工智能的冲击。
Our service sector is exposed to AI.
好的。
Alright.
我们得
We gotta
所以，这是我唯一喜欢的部分。
put So in this is the only bit I like.
我唯一喜欢的就是他直接谈到了经济问题，因为我觉得其他所有内容都只是干扰。
It's the only bit I like is that he came straight out and talked about the economics because I think everything else is is a distraction.
我同意。
I do.
不过，我想核实一下这个说法。
Although, I'd wanna fact check that.
他说了么？他是不是说从1970年到2010年，实际工资每十年下降了三分之一？
He said, did he say from 1970 till 2010, real wages went down a third every decade?
我不记得了。
I cannot remember.
我觉得他是这么说的。
I think he said that.
我不确定这是否属实。
I'm not sure if that's true.
我不确定。
I'm not sure.
我想核实一下这一点。
I'd like to check that.
但我从两个不同的角度思考了这个问题。
But I was thinking about it in two different ways.
所以我第一个想法是，好吧。
So the first way I was thinking about this was, okay.
这里积极的一面是什么？
What's the positive here?
这位人士曾被看好，将成为保守党下一任领导人，前提是CCHQ最终放弃凯米·巴达诺克。
This is a guy who was tipped to be the next leader leader of the conservatives when eventually CCHQ gives up on Kemi Badanok.
他是接任领导人的热门人选。
He's the favorite to be the leader.
因此，他转向改革党，这实际上对保守党来说是致命的。
And so his defection to reform essentially I mean, that's this is terminal for the Conservative Party.
他们完蛋了。
They're finished.
所以我一直在想，这对改革党来说是好事，能带来一些优秀的前座议员经验，你知道的，一个了解威斯敏斯特运作方式的政治操盘手。
And so I was thinking about this is good for reforms, some good front bench experience, you know, political operative who understands how Westminster works.
但我也在想，这不就是同一批人吗？
But then I was also thinking, this is just the same people.
就是那些不断加入改革党、把我们国家搞垮的同一拨人。
The same people who keep joining reform who fucked our country up.
是的。
Yeah.
他们本身就是问题的一部分。
They're part of the problem.
他们就是体制本身，我觉得，康，整个体系都得彻底改变。
They are the establishment, and I just think, Con, the whole thing's gotta go.
这让我很沮丧，因为我认为大多数转向改革党的人，并不是希望它变成另一个保守党。
It it frustrates me because I think the majority of people that have gone to reform didn't go for there to just be another conservative party.
没人希望看到这种叛逃行为。
No one wants defections.
我们想要一些从未从政、但有些独特特质的人，比如有商业经验之类的。
We wanted new unique people who have never been in politics before with a little bit of something about them, some business experience or something like that.
人们不希望看到跳槽。
People don't want defections.
我想要像你这样的人。
I want someone like you.
这真的让人很沮丧。
Like it's it's frustrating.
非常令人沮丧。
Very frustrating.
所以我们请了西蒙·迪克森来。
So we had Simon Dixon in here.
我刚才在想科顿的事，是的。
So the thing I was thinking about Cotton yeah.
通常，我和康纳会在路上讨论这些节目。
Normally, me and Connor discuss these shows on the way.
我当时就想，这个我不讨论了。
Was like, I'm not discussing this one.
我想聊点新鲜的。
I wanna talk fresh.
所以我想说的是，我们是不是问题的一部分？
So the thing I was thinking about with this one is, are we part of the problem?
是的。
Yeah.
怎么说？
How so?
所以呢，所以呢。
So so
关于西蒙·迪克森，我们谈过这个世界上有一个庞大的金融机器，所有人都只是提线木偶。
with with Simon Dixon, right, we talked about how there's this big financial machine that runs the world, and all these people are just puppets.
而且，你知道的，不管你是左派还是右派。
And, you know, it doesn't matter whether it's left, v, right.
他们希望你为各种叙事而争论。
They want you arguing over the narratives.
当你在争论叙事时，你就看不到那边他们正在悄悄偷走你所有的钱。
And when you're arguing over narratives, you don't see over there that they're just quietly stealing all your money.
如果我们只是对此做个表演，如果我们站出来说：你知道吗？
And if we are if we're just making a show on it, if if we came out and said, do know what?
这对于改革来说太棒了。
This is great for reform.
是的。
Yeah.
我现在甚至可能投票支持改革。
I might even vote for reform now.
谈论金钱骗局。
Talking about the money con.
我们只是问题的一部分吗？
Are we just part of the problem?
我们是不是正被卷入，仅仅支持现有体制，继续成为体制的一部分？
Are we getting sucked in to just supporting the establishment, continue being the establishment?
因为改革的真正意义在于，它原本寄托了巨大的希望，那就是反体制的力量。
Because the thing about reform was that the the the big hope that was, like, the anti establishment.
你知道的？
You know?
奈杰尔站出来了。
Nigel came out.
他说，我们不想成为欧洲的一部分。
He was like, we don't wanna be part of Europe.
我们举行了脱欧公投。
We we had the Brexit vote.
我们夺回了自己的主权。
We got our sovereignty back.
而现在他却说，我们不想加入欧洲人权公约。
And now he's saying, we don't wanna be part of the ECHR.
他是反建制的。
He was anti establishment.
但他的政党正变得越来越像建制派。
But his party is starting to look more and more like the establishment.
完全正确。
Totally.
但我不认为我们是问题的一部分，因为我们首先说的是：我们不买账。
But I don't think we are part of the problem because the first thing we're saying is we're not buying it.
但我们会不会成为
But could we be part of
问题的一部分？
the problem?
百分之百会。
Oh, a 100%.
你很容易就会成为问题的一部分。
You could easily be part of the problem.
你完全可以这么说，这是改革所能做的最好的事情。
You could easily say this is the best thing reform could have done.
他们恰恰在保守派略有回升、改革派逐渐衰落的时候，抢走了保守派最拿得出手的东西。
They've literally nabbed the best thing the conservatives have at a time when conservatives are coming back a little bit and reform are dropping.
但这全是胡说八道。
But it's all bullshit.
咱们坦诚点吧。
Let's be honest.
是的。
Yeah.
这真的让我很困扰。
It's really it's really bothering me.
我刚才在看你知道什么吗？
I was watching you know what?
因为这一切都关乎叙事，对吧？
Because it's all about narratives, right?
是的。
Yeah.
他们非常擅长描绘这些美好的叙事，你又怎么能不被洗脑呢？
And they do a very good job of painting these beautiful narratives and it's how do you not get brainwashed.
你知道另一件事是什么吗？
Do you know what the other thing is?
我不想要后悔购买。
I don't want buyer's remorse.
特朗普就是一个完美的例子。
Trump is a perfect example.
对吧？
Right?
他彻底赢得了上一次选举，让人们相信他会再次清理污水池。
He absolutely crushed the last election, convinced people that he was gonna drain the swamp again.
他打算处理政府债务。
He was gonna deal with the government debt.
你知道，多泽本来打算揭露所有的腐败行为。
You know, Dozer was gonna find out all the corruption.
实际上，像尼克·谢里尔这样的人已经做了大量相关工作。
Actually, way more work has been done on that by people like Nick Shirley.
对吧？
Right?
而现在他只是到处在全球挑起争端。
And now he's just he's just out there picking fights globally.
看看自由主义者们的后悔情绪吧。
And look at the bar's remorse on, like, the libertarians.
戴夫·史密斯，抱歉老在节目里提他，但他就是那种人。
Dave Smith sorry to keep bringing Dave Smith up in the show, but he was one of those people.
他有点支持特朗普。
It's like, he was a bit pro Trump.
嗯，因为他们需要完成一些利益交换。
Well, yeah, because they had favors that needed to be done.
好吧，自由主义者对拉斯·阿尔布雷希特的支持。
Well, the libertarian favor for Russ Albrecht.
但我也认为，他相信自己会清除腐败。
But also, I think he believed he was going to drain the swamp.
他实际上是
He was actually
而且，对于一个自由主义者来说，这始终是最好的最差选择，因为他们的理想情况是两个政党都上不了台。
Also, for a libertarian, it's kind of it will always be the the best of the worst options because their ideal scenario is neither party gets in.
是的。
Yeah.
但重点是，就像你今天早上发给我的那个东西。
But the point is it's like that thing you sent me this morning.
你愿意选择最不坏的选项吗？
Do you wanna pick the best of the worst options?
我不想选什么最不坏的选项。
I don't wanna pick the best of the worst option.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但那始终是自由意志主义者的观点。
But that will always be the libertarian view point.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我认为自由意志主义者的观点是：去他的。
I think the libertarian viewpoint is like, fuck that.
我讨厌政府。
I hate the government.
我不会投你一票。
I'm not gonna vote for you.
我反对政府。
I'm anti government.
我不投票。
I'm not voting.
他们中的一些人过来了。
Some of them came over
那么你在决策中就不会有任何余地。
to Then you don't get any leeway within decision making.
当然。
Sure.
但自由意志主义者所以他们不得不稍微参与这个游戏。
But libertarians So they kinda have to play the game a little bit.
安吉拉·麦卡特尼就是这么说的。
That's what Angela McCartnell said.
如果有利可图，如果他们能推动改变，他们就会参与这个游戏。
They will play the game if there is a benefit if they can make change.
但关键是，我觉得戴夫·史密斯现在有点后悔了，因为他已经站出来了。
But the point is I think Dave Smith has got kind of buyer's remorse now because he's out there.
他一直在贬低特朗普，正确地批评他所有的失败，似乎想跟所有人开战，还对格陵兰、伊朗和委内瑞拉摆出一副强硬姿态。
He's like slagging off Trump and rightly criticizing all his failures and seems like he wants to go to war with everyone and the posturing with Greenland and Iran and Venezuela.
我觉得戴维斯后悔了。
I think Davis buys remorse.
我觉得我们这个国家根本上已经崩溃了，政治也彻底烂透了，如果我说：你知道吗？
I think we're so fundamentally broken in this country that I think the politics is so fundamentally broken that if I said, you know what?
改革至少是所有糟糕选项里最好的一个。
Well, reform is the best of the worst options.
他们在谈论经济问题。
They're talking about the economics.
他们在谈论如何解决国家的文化问题。
You know, they're talking about fixing cultural issues in the country.
他们在谈论政府的规模。
You know, they're talking about the size of the government.
这听起来像是我想要的东西，但我不认为改革能带来任何东西，除了衰退。
It sounds like something that I want, but but I don't think with reform, you are voting for anything but decay.
我认为你投票决定的只是衰退的速度以及他们将衰退归咎于谁。
I think the only thing you're voting for is the pace of decay and who they point the decay at.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
就像格林与波兰斯基的情况一样，我认为他加速了衰败，并将衰败的矛头指向中上阶层，因为在波兰斯基的统治下富人会离开，因为没人想要共产主义。
And just like Green with Polansky, I think he accelerates the decay, and he points the decay at the middle upper middle class because the rich will leave under Polansky because no one wants communism.
但我认为在改革之下，我看不到一个他们能以某种方式处理经济问题、让我们不再出现赤字的世界。
But I think under reform, I can't see a world where they deal with the economics in a way that we no longer run-in deficits.
所以他们仍然会借贷，我们仍然会有巨额债务。
So they will still borrow, We still have massive debt.
我们仍然会有严重的通货膨胀。
We will still have massive inflation.
他们对我说过的话里，没有一句让我觉得我应该投你一票。
There's nothing they have said to me that said, oh, you should vote for me.
所以，如果非要说的话，是的。
So if anything yeah.
我可以讲一些真正会惹怒很多人的话。
I can say something that really piss some really piss some people off.
如果我没听到改革派提出任何像样的经济政策，比如能消除通胀、消除债务的政策，我宁愿选波兰斯基。
If I didn't hear a proper sound policy from reform, which was about dealing with the economic policy in a way which gets rid of inflation, which gets rid of the debt, I'd rather I'd rather Polansky one.
这就是我的观点。
This is what I say.
加速吧。
Accelerate.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
因为你是个加速主义者。
Because you're an accelerationist.
嗯，这会唤醒足够多的人。
Well, it will wake enough people up.
我认为我们从未有过这么多的人意识到，这一切有多么混乱，尤其是在过去两年这个工党执政期间。
I don't think we've ever had more people realize what a shit show it all kind of is than under this past two years with this labor government.
这已经让人生气到一定程度，以至于他们开始觉得：我不想再参与其中了。
It's it's pissed people off to the point where they are getting to that stage where it's like, I'm not I don't wanna be part of this.
你觉得这可能会发生在你身上吗？
Do you do you think this might come up with you?
你的那些家伙今晚要出来活动了。
Your boys are coming out with the boys tonight.
不会。
No.
出现吧。
Come up.
不错。
Nice.
你能稍微试探一下吗？
Can you just like test the waters a little bit?
去做一些市场调研吧。
Just do some market research.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
他们根本不关心。
They don't care.
你不会跟他们说：伙计们，我得跟你们谈谈通货膨胀。
You're not gonna be like, boys, I need to talk to you about inflation.
不行。
No.
我是这群人里50岁的那个。
I'm the 50 year old of the group.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是觉得，我不会被卷入其中。
I'm just like, I'm not getting sucked in.
我不会被卷入这件事。
I'm not getting sucked into this.
我不想买完就后悔。
I don't want buyer's remorse.
我过去三次选举都没投票。
I haven't voted in the last three elections.
这次选举我也不投。
I'm not voting this election.
任何听了之后还评论说‘你不投票真丢人，毕竟有人为你的投票权而战’的人。
And anyone who listens and comments like, oh, well, if you if you don't vote, you know, that's a disgrace because people will vote fought for your vote.
或者你不投票，那谁上台我都无所谓了。
Or if you don't vote, then the other people I don't care who gets in anymore.
没哪个政党做过什么让我……说实话，这全是胡扯。
It's not like any party has done anything to make my well, actually, it's bullshit.
这就是问题的关键。
That's the thing about this.
他们确实让我的生活变好了。
They actually do make my life better.
现在我是个资产持有者，但我并不想以牺牲别人为代价来改善自己的生活。
Now I'm an asset holder, but I don't want my life better at the cost of everyone else.
对吧？
Right?
我希望你的生活也能变好。
I want your life better.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以，如果这些政党没有为这个世界做任何改善，而你现在已经成长为一个年轻人，
So if I not not one of these parties has done anything to improve the world to which you came into and now you're a young adult in.
我不想要这样。
I don't want it.
去他的。
Fuck that.
我不会这么做。
I'm not doing it.
我不会这么做。
I'm not doing it.
这让我觉得
And it it makes me
但我就觉得无所谓了。
But then I just come to cool.
那现在怎么办？
Now what?
所以你不想投票。
So you don't wanna vote.
那接下来呢？
What then?
嗯，你知道我怎么想的。
Well, you know what what I think.
我认为我想要一个政党提出一套关于我国经济的改革政策，这些政策要促进增长、支持商业、鼓励创业，而不仅仅是空口说说。
I think I want a party to come out with a policy of reforms on the economics of our country whereby it is pro growth, pro business, pro entrepreneur, and not just say it.
比如，给我看看具体的政策。
Like, show me the policies.
到底有哪些真正会带来改变的措施？
What are the things that are actually gonna change?
你们作为一个政党，打算做些什么来实现变革？
What are the things you are gonna do as a party to make change?
你们打算如何落实？我觉得你知道我的意思。
And how are you gonna hold I think you know what?
我认为最重要的是，如果你有这个胆量去做，你就该站出来明确说你要做。
I think the most important thing is if you've got the balls to do it, you're gonna come out and say you're gonna do it.
你打算如何对自己负责？
How are gonna hold yourself accountable?
我们刚刚经历了一个工党，他们出来宣称不会对劳动者加税。
We've just had a labor party that came out and said, no tax rises on working people.
我们已经有了两个预算，也已经两次对劳动者加税了。
We've had two budgets, and we've had two tax rises on working people.
那么，你打算如何对这个承诺负责？
So how are gonna hold yourself accountable to the mandate?
因为如果我投了你，而你出来却说，我们会支持企业、减少官僚主义。
Because if I voted for you and you come out and you say, well, we're going to be pro business and we're gonna strip back bureaucracy.
好吧。
Okay.
你们要削减哪些东西？
What are you stripping back?
我们还将支持投资。
And we're gonna be pro investment.
好的。
Okay.
你们打算如何推动国家的投资？
What are you gonna do to drive investment in the country?
我们还将支持创业者。
And we're gonna be pro entrepreneur.
好的。
Okay.
创业者能获得哪些好处？
What benefits does the entrepreneur get?
告诉我。
Tell me.
如果你们失败了，我们如何让你们承担责任？
And if you fail, how are we holding you accountable?
你们不借巨额资金、不再次推高通胀、不让所有人变穷的情况下，打算怎么做到这一点？
And how are you gonna do that without borrowing loads of money, driving up inflation again, making everyone poor?
你们打算怎么做？
How are you gonna do it?
告诉我。
Tell me.
请告诉我。
Please tell me.
看在上帝的份上，告诉我吧，因为我不会把票投给你。
For for the love of god, tell me because I am not giving you my vote.
这是什么？
What's this?
这个在改革网站上。
So this is on the reform website.
这是他们的一些政策。
This is some of their policies.
政府支出需要重大改革。
Government spending needs major reform.
头一百天内亟需进行关键改革。
Critical reform needed in first hundred days.
英格兰银行必须停止向商业银行支付量化宽松储备金的利息。
Bank of England must stop paying interest to commercial banks on QE reserves.
这将节省350亿英镑。
That'll save 35,000,000,000.
我不知道这会带来什么影响。
I don't know what I don't know what the implication of that would be.
我只想补充一点，他们已经明确表示不会有任何减税。
And I will just add, they have come out and said there will be zero tax cuts.
是的。
Yeah.
直到经济稳定为止，这是积极的。
Until the economy is stable, which is positive.
不。
No.
我现在就想要减税。
I want tax cuts now.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你在节省之前就减税，市场就会
But if you do tax cuts before you save, that's when the market
开始动荡。
is going shipping.
同时进行。
Do it the same time.
你需要先节省。
You need to save first.
我认为他们在这件事上很明智。
I think they're being sensible with that.
好的。
Okay.
每个部门都必须大幅削减开支，精简官僚机构，提高效率，并在不触碰一线服务的情况下实现更优价值的采购。
Every department must slash wayfull spending, cut bureaucracy, improve efficiency, and negotiate better value procurement without touching frontline services.
这每年将节省500亿美元。
This will save 50,000,000,000 a year.
脱欧红利：取消不必要的监管，将对外援助削减50%，追回数十亿未缴税款。
Brexit bonus cut unnecessary regulations, cut foreign aid by 50%, collect billions in unpaid tax.
好的。
Okay.
告诉我你打算怎么做。
Tell me how you're gonna do it.
告诉我。
Tell me.
这些都只是承诺。
These are just promises.
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当然。
Of course.
但那样的话，我们该怎么
But then then we it's like, how how can you ever
好吧。
How alright.
你打算如何让自己
How are gonna make yourself
在他们掌权之前，你永远看不到他们是否真的做到了。
Until they're in power, you're never gonna see if they do it or not.
你打算如何让自己负责？
How are gonna make yourself accountable?
那确实是个好观点。
So that's that's a good point.
我喜欢这一点。
I like that one.
是的。
Yeah.
当你承诺要做某事时，当我们看到你的第一个预算案时，我们会看到任何增税吗？
How you can say when you say you're gonna do this and we get to your first budget, are we gonna see any tax increases?
所以在那个阶段，如果什么都没做，你希望他们辞职吗？
So at that stage, if nothing had been done, would you like them to step down?
我不知道。
I don't know.
你告诉我他们是怎么做到的
Do you tell me how they make
你告诉我，你是选民。
You tell me you're the voter.
是你自己说你现在不打算投票的。
You're the one saying you're not gonna vote at the minute.
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我的意思是，我很希望如此。
I mean, I would like it.
我认为每个政党都应在选举前提出自己的预算计划。
I think every political party should put forward their budget plan ahead of the election.
这样你就可以一目了然地进行对比。
So you can look side by side.
你知道，这就是我们作为改革要做的事情。
You know, this is what we're gonna do as reform.
这就是我们的税收收入，我们将如何花钱，以及我们预计要借多少钱。
This is what the tax receipts is, we're gonna spend money, and this is how much we expect to borrow.
我是绿党成员，扎克·波兰斯基。
I'm the Green Party, Zach Polansky.
这就是我要借的钱，以及我打算做的事情。
This is how much I'm going to, you know, borrow, and this is what I expect to do.
我认为每个人都应该提出自己的预算方案。
I think everyone should put forward their budget.
所以投票时，你应该根据他们承诺要做的事情来投票。
So when you vote, you vote based on what they say they're going to do.
当然。
Sure.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
请稍等一下。
Bear with me.
是你问的。
You asked.
是你问的。
You asked.
明白吗？
Okay?
你来讨论你的第一个预算。
You come to your first budget.
明白吗？
Okay?
如果你没有切实履行承诺，如果你借的钱比预算中说的多了一分，如果你增加的税收比预算中说的多了一分，那就举行公投，重新选举。
If you've materially not delivered, if you borrow one penny more than you said you're going to do in your budget, if you raise one tax more than you said you're gonna do, referendum, new election.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
所以
So
这让你负起责任。
That makes you accountable.
哦，100%。
Oh, a 100%.
但我只想从个人角度来说一下。
But I would just like to put it in personal terms.
我们的足球俱乐部，每年年初都会做预算。
Our football club, we do a budget at the start of the year.
到年底时，这个预算有多少次是完全不变的？
How often by the end of the year is that budget the same?
这不重要。
Doesn't matter.
这是我的钱。
It's my money.
这是我们足球俱乐部的钱。
It's our football club's money.
我们有可以使用的储蓄。
We've got our savings that we can use.
国家没有任何储蓄。
Country doesn't have any savings.
但总会有一些突发情况出现。
But there are always going to be things that come up.
但如果遇到金融危机，或者像病毒这样的事情呢？
But but the Where if it be financial crises, something like a virus.
好吧。
Alright.
我有个很好的答案给你。
I've got a great answer for you.
好的。
Okay.
首先，我们是一家私营企业。
First one, we're a private enterprise.
那是我们的钱。
That is our money.
我们有权决定如何使用它。
We choose to spend it how we want.
这是公共资金。
This is public money.
这是我们的钱。
This is our money.
明白吗？
Okay?
我不知道如果足球俱乐部倒闭了，我们需要更多的钱。
I don't if the football club fails, I mean, we need more money.
我不会去隔壁的足球俱乐部或者别人那里，伸手要钱，说好的。
I don't go to a football club next door or someone else and put my hand in the pocket and go, yeah.
我在足球俱乐部犯了个错误。
I've made a mistake at the football club.
我只是要拿走你们的一些钱。
I'm just gonna take some of your money.
是的。
Yeah.
我的预算搞错了。
I got my budgets wrong.
我搞砸了。
I screwed up.
我不会那样做。
I don't do that.
我必须去借钱，或者投入自己的资金并承担个人风险。
I have to go and either borrow it or invest inject my own money and my own risk.
我只是想知道，成为那样的未来真的那么难吗？
I just wonder if it's really hard to be that future.
我认为，如果你做出了承诺，那就意味着你相信自己能够履行这些承诺。
I think if you make promises, you don't make the promises if you don't think you can keep them.
比如，如果你想要治理国家，你就应该围绕自己组建一支足够优秀的人才团队，让他们去分析预算、审查已支出的款项、了解资金流向，然后说：好吧，交给你了。
Like, if you if you think you if you wanna run the country, you should surround yourself with people good enough to make these predictions, go into the budgets, go into what's been spent, go into where we're spending money, put a team together and say, here you go.
这是我们的预算。
Here's our budget.
如果你无法遵守这个预算，那就应该举行全民公投。
And if you can't keep to that, it's a referendum.
你可能会说，哦，现在有危机了。
And you might say, oh, there's a crisis.
政府需要借钱。
The government needs to borrow money.
我不明白有什么危机。
I don't know what crisis there is.
发生地震了。
There's an earthquake.
我们正在重建国家。
We're rebuild the country.
我们举行全民公投。
We go for a referendum.
人们不会说，是的。
People won't go, well, yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
我同意这一点，因为现在有危机。
I agree with that because there's a crisis.
目前我们并没有危机，除了政府自身清楚一点：当他们上台后，有三大手段来维持权力，即印钞、侵犯我们的公民自由和加强监管。
We don't have a crisis at the moment beyond the state itself knowing that when they get in power, they've got three levers to retain power, which is creation of money, infringing on our civil liberties, and regulation.
每个政府上台后会发生什么？
And what happens under every government?
他们会印更多钱。
They create more money.
他们侵犯我们的公民自由，并制造更多繁文缛节。
They infringe on our civil liberties, and they create more red tape.
所以我希望他们能承担责任。
So I'm like, be accountable.
给我们瑞士式的公投吧。
Give us give us Swiss style referendum.
当你看我们的债务时，嗯。
When you look at our debt Mhmm.
你觉得你真的能实现吗？
Do you think you can actually on one?
是的。
Yes.
你最近不是告诉我，如果我们每年节省一千亿美元，仍然需要漫长的时间来……
Was it you that told me recently, like, if if we saved a 100,000,000,000 a year, it would still would like take shit ton amount of time to
你不会，我们支付的远不止债务利息。
You wouldn't you wouldn't we pay more than debt interest.
现在的债务利息，我认为每年大约是1100亿美元。
Debt interest now, think, is about 110,000,000,000 a year.
你之前跟我提过，说要还清债务，光是还本金就得花上一百三十年左右。
There was something you told me about, like, it would take, like, a hundred and thirty years just to get back to
不对。
No.
你甚至都做不到这一点。
You wouldn't you wouldn't even that.
在蕾切尔·里夫斯任内，每年的债务利息我认为从9500亿美元上涨到了1100亿美元。
So debt interest a year under Rachel Reeves, I think it's gone up from 95,000,000,000 to 110,000,000,000.
我的数字可能有点不太准确。
My numbers might be slightly out.
每年的债务利息大约是1100亿美元。
It's about 110,000,000,000 a year on debt interest.
所以如果我们每年还掉1100亿美元，那我们只是原地踏步。
So if we pay a 110,000,000,000 off, we're standing still.
我们要花1200亿来还100亿，这远远不够。
We're gonna pay a 120,000,000,000 to pay 10,000,000,000 off, and that's not enough.
但如果我们开始偿还，至少我们走在正确的方向上。
But if we start paying it off, at least we're in the right direction.
但究竟有什么计划能还清足够的债务？
But where is the plan to pay enough?
我向你保证这一点。
I guarantee you this.
我现在就愿意跟你打个赌。
I would be willing to make you a bet right now.
在改革后的政府下，债务将会增加。
Debt will increase under reformed government.
嗯，任何政府下债务都会增加。
Well, we it will increase under any government.
但改革至少能让增长幅度小一点。
But, yes, reform just slightly less.
是的
Yeah.
这是一种变革的节奏，以及他们所指出的方向。
It's a pace of change and who they point out.
但看起来要还清这笔债务，前方的路还很长。
But this this is like it seems like such a long road ahead trying to pay that debt off.
是的
Yeah.
而且这是3万亿美元。
And it's 3,000,000,000,000.
没错。
Exactly.
难道我们不是干脆认输、重新开始更好吗？
It's like, are we not better just cutting our losses and starting over?
嗯，不是的。
Well, no.
你是在说违约吗？
You're talking about default on that.
如果你违约了，货币就会崩溃。
If you if you default on the debt, you'll have the currency will crash.
人们的生活将遭到实质性的破坏。
People's lives will be materially destroyed.
我知道你在说什么。
I know what you're saying.
去看看其他已经这么做的国家吧。
It's what go and look at other countries that have done that.
这可不是什么好事。
It is it is not good.
去看看埃及正在发生什么，或者看看马拉维发生过什么，所有那些地方都一样。
Go and look what's happening in in Egypt or look what happened in Malawi or all the places.
不。
No.
我们不想这么做。
We don't wanna do that.
我们每年引进超过一万亿美元。
We bring in over 1,000,000,000,000 a year.
明白吗？
Okay?
每年1.1万亿美元。
1,100,000,000,000.0 a year.
我们不仅可以开始偿还债务，还能促进经济增长。
We can start paying off our debt, plus we can grow our economy.
但我们必须做出非常艰难的选择。
But we have to make really tough choices.
你知道，你和我都有选择。
You know, you and I have choices.
我们是留在这个国家吗？
Do we stay in this country?
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
我们有选择。
We have a choice.
嗯，我愿意继续留在这个国家，多缴税。
Well, I would I would happily stay in this country, pay more tax.
我愿意成为议员。
I'd happily become an MP.
我愿意为团队牺牲，投身于一项有明确计划、让这个国家恢复应有面貌的事业中。
I'd happily take one for the team and go and becomes part of something where there is a direct plan to restore this country to what it should be.
明白吗？
K?
我愿意参与其中，但我们必须应对这笔债务。
I would happily be part of that, but we have to deal with this debt.
我认为在改革下，你知道钱是怎么进入这个系统的吗？
And I think under reform do you do you know about how how the how the money comes into the system?
什么钱？
What money?
所以情况是这样的，政府决定要把钱花在什么地方。
So so so the way it works is the government decides what he wants to spend money on.
K？
K?
他们先花钱。
They spend it first.
当出现赤字时，他们会借钱，并用税收来控制后果。
When there's a shortfall, they borrow that money, and they use taxes to control the consequences.
这不像你。
It's not like you.
你知道，当你月底拿到工资时，你会付房租、买车钱。
You know, when you get paid at the end of the month and you're like, you pay your rent and you chew you pay for your car.
我现在已经付了。
Which I paid now.
是的。
Yeah.
晚了四个月。
Four months late.
你还在欠你姐姐钱吗？
And do you still owe your sister some money?
是的。
Yeah.
我知道这件事。
I know about that.
你向你姐姐借钱来付房租。
You pored off your sister to pay your rent.
我每天只能从机器里取出一定金额。
I'm only allowed to take a certain amount out of the machine each each day.
她向你收利息吗？
Is she charging you interest?
不收。
No.
她疯了吗？
Is she fucked?
你不知道我这么做过。
You didn't know I did that.
但你确实拿到工资了。
So so but you you get paid.
你付了房租。
You pay your rent.
你付了车款，然后你知道还剩一些钱，你可以选择存一部分
You pay your car, and then you know you've got left, and you choose either to save some
或者，你知道的，
or, you know,
或者把所有钱都花光。
or spend everything you've got.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
好吧，想象一下是这样的情形。
Well, imagine it was this way.
想象一下，月初的时候，你决定好所有想做的事，然后到了月底。
Imagine at the start of the month, you just decided all the stuff you wanted to do, and you get to the end of the month.
我钱不够了。
I haven't got enough.
你就去掏别人的口袋。
You just go and take out somebody else's pocket.
这就是政府运作的方式。
That's what the way that's the way the government works.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我会因为那样被关进监狱。
I get chucked in prison for that.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
如果我们不把钱给他们，我们就会被关进监狱。
We get chucked in prison if we don't give them our money.
我们已经成了他们的存钱罐，关键在于他们先花钱。
And we've become their piggy bank, and that's the point is they spend first.
他们总是超支，因为他们根本负担不起想做的所有事情。
They always overspend because they can never afford all the things they wanna do.
于是他们去英格兰银行。
And so then they go to the Bank of England.
说：我们想再借点钱，谢谢。
Say, we'd like to borrow some more money, please.
债务就这样不断累积，永无止境。
It just goes on that big never ending debt pile.
所以，他们利用税收机制，没错，税收主要是为了应对后果和控制通货膨胀。
And so and then they just use the way taxes work is, yes, it's really to deal with consequences and control inflation.
这正是税收存在的目的。
That's that's what it's there for.
我敢保证，改革会继续借钱。
And so I guarantee that reform will borrow money.
他们不会真的去还钱，对吧。
They're not gonna come and go, right.
第一天，我们只花我们拥有的钱。
Day one, we only spend what we got.
他们会花钱。
They're gonna spend money.
他们不得不花钱来做他们想做的事。
They're gonna have to spend money to do the things they wanna do.
我不希望成为其中的一部分，因为如果真是这样——而它一定会是——那意味着我们会得到什么？
And I don't wanna become part of that because if that's the case, which it will be, what does it mean we're gonna get?
我们会得到更多的债务、更高的通货膨胀，然后我们会变穷。
We're gonna get more debt, more inflation, and we're gonna be poor.
这就是为什么我认为，不管你现在投票给谁，你其实是在投票支持更贫穷的未来。
That's why I think you'd like, whatever you whoever you vote for now, you're voting for poorer.
是的。
Yes.
但我们必须坦诚面对现实：如果我们开始偿还债务，接下来几年会很难熬。
But we have to be honest about the fact is if we started paying off the debt, it will be a rough few years.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
对于像你这样的人来说，这要容易得多，比如，比起那些仅能勉强维持生计的底层民众。
And that's a lot easier for someone in your position, let's say, than someone in the lower class who's just getting by.
所以他们在这里有一个投票的动机。
So they've got a they've got a voting incentive here.
当然。
Sure.
一个困境。
A dilemma.
我不认为他们更愿意选择，这确实是个艰难的决定，好吧。
And I don't think they would rather it's a it's a tough option to go, fine.
接下来的十年将会很糟糕。
The next ten years are gonna be shit.
这是为了未来。
This is for the future.
我不认为人们会这样想。
I don't think people think like that.
想象一下战时状态，年轻人不得不参军为国家作战，他们就这样去了。
Think about it like wartime footing, where young people had to go off to war to fight for a country, and they just did.
无私的。
Selfless.
无私的。
Selfless.
不知道自己能否回来。
Not knowing they they were coming back.
我觉得就是这样。
I think like that.
我觉得这有点像战时心态。
I think this is kind of wartime mentality.
作为一个国家，我们必须承认，如果我们继续增加债务，情况不会好转。
As a as a nation, we have to say, we have to accept that if we continue to keep growing the debt, things are not gonna get better.
几十年来一直如此，而且也不会变好。
They haven't for decades, and they're not going to get better.
这个国家的发展轨迹非常清晰。
The trajectory of this country is very clear.
这非常明显。
It's very obvious.
每天有45位百万富翁离开。
45 millionaires are leaving a day.
聪明、有才华的年轻人都在离开。
Smart, bright, young people are leaving.
每个人都在斗争。
Everyone's fighting.
各地的企业都在倒闭。
Companies are closing down everywhere.
税收正在上涨。
Taxes are going up.
公共服务并没有实质性的改善。
Services are not materially improving.
大多数服务都在变得更糟。
Most of them are getting worse.
这个国家的每一项指标几乎都在崩坏。
Like, every single measure of this country is pretty much going to shit.
那么，我们是想接受这种千刀万剐式的缓慢死亡，还是说，不，我们不要再这样了？
And so do we just want that slow death by a thousand cuts, or do you wanna go, no.
我受够了，我真的受够了。
I'm done with I'm done.
我实在受不了了。
I'm so done with this.
作为国家，我们必须团结起来，承认在这种情况下，债务是邪恶的。
We as a country, we come together, and we accept that debt is evil in this scenario.
债务就像套在这个国家脖子上的锁链。
Debt is it's like chains around the neck of this country.
如果我们不处理这个问题，情况只会变得更糟，所以我们现在就来解决它。
If we don't do if we don't deal with this, it's gonna get worse, so let's deal with it.
我们所有人都身处其中。
And we're all in it together.
多征我的税吧。
Tax me more.
多征你的税。
Tax you more.
你知道，我们必须削减一些公共服务，但我们要开始偿还债务。
You know, we have to lose some public services, but we start paying off the debt.
我们要开始投资人民。
We start investing in people.
我们要开始投资国家，并推动它发展。
We start investing in the country, and we start growing it.
是的
Yeah.
我只是觉得我们在社会中失去了一点无私精神。
I just think we've lost a bit of that selflessness in society.
我上来的时候就这么说了。
I said it even coming up here.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得我们失去了一点格调。
I think we've lost a bit of class.
失去了一点那种英国式的，你知道的，荣誉感。
A bit of that like British, you know, honor.
我很欣赏你这么说。
I'm proud of you saying that.
所以这要求很高，要
So it's take it's gonna it's a big ask to
这可能不会
It might not
要求公众回到那种方式。
ask the public to to go back to that way.
这甚至可能做不到。
It might not even be possible.
这可能做不到，因为就像那个查马斯的片段那样。
It might not be possible because of it's like that put that Chamath clip up.
让人们看看那个。
Let people see that.
大约有150人掌控着这个世界。
There's about a 150 people that run the world.
任何想从政的人，全都是他妈的傀儡。
Anybody who wants to go into politics, they're all fucking puppets.
明白吗？
Okay?
世界上有150个人，全是男性在掌控一切，就是这样。
There are a 150, and they're all men that run the world, period.
到此为止。
Full stop.
他们控制着大部分重要资产。
They control most of the important assets.
他们掌控着资金流动，而这些人都不是科技创业者。
They control the money flows, and these are not the tech entrepreneurs.
在未来五到十年里，他们将被那些真正躲在幕后操纵一切的人推翻。
Now they they are going to get rolled over over the next five to ten years by the people that are really underneath pulling the strings.
当你掀开帷幕，看到这个世界的真实运作方式时，你会意识到，它不公平地为他们及其后代设定了优势。
And when you get behind the curtain and see how that world works, what you realize is it is unfairly set up for them and their progeny.
当务之急是我必须突破进去，坐到那张桌子旁。
First order of business is I wanna break through and be at that table.
这才是首要任务。
That's the first order of business.
我实现这一点的方式是证明自己能像他们一样做好这些事，甚至做得比他们更好。
And the way that I do that is by proving that I can do what they do as well as they do it, and then do it better than how they do it.
因为归根结底，他们就是一群充满敌意的商人，会出于好奇打开门让我进来，而让我留下是因为我带来了价值。
Because at the end of the day, they are commercial fucking animus, and they'll open the door out of curiosity, and they'll let me stay because I because I add value.
一旦我进入其中，我就能为其他想做同样事情的人打开大门。
And then once I'm there, I can open the door for other people who can try to do the same thing.
所以我现在全部的目标，就是让自己有能力聚集足够的全球资本，然后按照我的世界观重新分配它们。
So my entire goal now is that, is to be in a position to aggregate enough of the capital of the world to then reallocate it against my worldview.
而且
And
我是做音乐的。
I'm Good music.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实相当有趣，因为他基本上是在说：我看到了帷幕之后的真相。
That's but it's quite interesting, really, because he's basically saying, I've seen behind the veil.
我看到了这个世界是如何运作的。
I've seen how the world works.
有150个人在掌控着这个世界。
There's a 150 guys who run the world.
都是那些资产管理人。
It's all the asset managers.
对吧？
Right?
就是这些资产管理人。
It's the asset managers.
他们掌控着这个世界。
They run the world.
所有政客都是傀儡，他们会听我们的安排。
All the politicians are puppets, and they're gonna do as we say.
所以如果这是真的，就连改革者也不过是傀儡。
So if that's true, even reform are just puppets.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
这其实也挺吓人的。
It's also, like, quite scary.
我想成为那些人之一。
It's like, I wanna be one of those guys.
我想成为那150个掌控世界的人之一。
I wanna be one of the 150 people who run the world.
这有点奇怪。
It's kinda weird.
所以，然后我的想法完全不一样了，康纳。
And so so then I think completely differently, Connor.
我们到底在做什么？
Like, what are we even doing?
如果这世界上真有150个人在这样掌控一切，那我们根本改变不了任何事。
If there's a 150 people who run the world like this, well, we can't change any of this.
他们反正会做他们想做的事。
They're gonna do what they're gonna do anyway.
对吧？
Right?
如果这150个人掌控着世界，那管他是波兰斯基还是奈杰尔·法拉奇，他们都会说：你们国家需要资本。
If those 150 people run the world, it doesn't matter if it's Polansky or Nigel Farage, because they're gonna say, well, your country needs capital.
我们有资本。
We've got the capital.
这是我们把资本投入你们国家的条件。
These are the conditions under which we put the capital in your country.
所以这一切都只是作秀。
So this is all just theater.
当然了。
Of course.
是的
Yeah.
那我们为什么还要费这个劲呢？
So like, why are we even bothering?
但这就像是黑 pill 还是白 pill 的问题。
But then this is black pill, white pill.
是的
Yeah.
但这个‘是的’是什么意思。
But is the yeah.
你心里想的是，我完全可以简单地说一声‘是的’。
You're going like, I can easily just go, yeah.
这一切有什么意义呢？
What's the point of any of this?
我根本不可能对世界的运行方式产生任何微小的影响。
I'm not gonna make any minute difference to the way the world runs at all.
但那是一种悲惨的视角。
But that's a miserable outlook.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我认为这比那要积极得多。
I think I think it's more positive than that.
把它想象成一个游戏吧。
Like, think of it as a as a game.
在我们面前有一块棋盘。
There's a there's a board in front of us.
你还记得我们玩过《垄断社会主义》吗？
Do you remember when we played monopoly socialism?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们买了一个叫《社会主义大富翁》的版本。
So monopoly social we bought a version of monopoly, which was monopoly socialism.
没人抱怨。
No one complained.
没人能赢。
No one could win.
这简直太他妈乱七八糟了。
It's so fucking fucked.
比如，每次玩大富翁，我通常都会赢，但我是说，是的。
Like, whenever we play monopoly, I usually win, but I yeah.
你出老千。
You cheat.
我出老千。
I cheat.
我甚至在他们还是孩子的时候就从银行偷钱，到现在我还在作弊。
I steal from the bank even when they were kids, and I'm I was still cheat now.
但我和我买了垄断社会主义。
But we I got I bought monopoly socialism.
经典的富人从银行偷钱。
Classic rich guy stealing from the banks.
是的。
Yeah.
我才是垄断游戏的真正数学。
I'm I'm the true math of monopoly.
但垄断社会主义太棒了，因为你玩的时候，简直就像想象扎克·卡拉斯基制定了所有规则。
But but monopoly socialism is brilliant because you play it and it's just basically imagine imagine Zach Kalansky made all the rules.
所以我不确定。
So I don't know.
康纳一直住在梅费尔，而且可以免费入住。
Connor Connor stays at Mayfair, and he just gets to stay for free.
酒店外虽然有几次抗议，但你还是能免费入住。
There's few protests outside the hotel, but you get to stay for free.
但你赢不了。
But you can't win.
基本上，你赢不了这个游戏，因为钱只是不停地循环流转。
Basically, you can't win the game because the money just keeps go round and round and round.
对于一个你赢不了的游戏，你到底该做什么呢？
And the thing about a game that you can't win, what should what what should you really do?
别玩了。
Stop playing.
别玩了。
Stop playing.
干脆把球翻过来，不玩了。
Just flip the ball and stop playing.
所以，也许白药丸可能是……
And so maybe the white pill is maybe.
我不是说它真的没了，但也许白药丸已经消失了。
I'm not saying it is, but maybe the white pill's gone.
我就是不玩了。
I'm just not gonna play.
我不玩了。
I'm not gonna play
再也不玩这个该死的游戏了。
this fucking game anymore.
但当游戏就是人生时，你该如何停止玩人生呢？
But when the game is life, how do you stop playing life?
嗯，不是的。
Well, no.
不是。
No.
你就玩你想过的人生。
You just play the life you wanna play.
想想他们希望我们过的生活。
Think of the life they want us to play.
这归结为不
It comes back to not
所以这是老鼠赛跑吗？
So it's the rat race?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我们已经看过了。
We've seen it.
你进来后，你知道的，那种粗鲁的
You come in and, you know, that rude
去上学，拿好成绩，是的。
Go to school, get your a's, Yeah.
去大学。
Go to uni.
找一份盒子里的工作。
Get a job in a box.
买个盒子。
Buy a box.
不。
No.
情况还会更糟。
It gets worse than that.
去上大学。
Go to uni.
背负债务。
Get the debt.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你现在已经成为这个体系的一部分了。
So you're now part of the system.
你背上了债务。
You got the debt.
你开始偿还这笔债务，但你需要买一套房子。
You start paying that debt off, but you need to get a house.
你又背上了债务。
You get that debt.
你需要一辆车。
You need the car.
你又背上了债务。
You get that debt.
而你所做的一切，只是在为这个以债务为基础的系统提供动力。
And and all you are doing is fueling the debt based system.
你是这个以债务为基础的系统中的一颗螺丝钉。
You are a cog in that debt debt based system.
所以，也许选择白色药丸就是接受现实，好吧。
And so maybe the white pill is to go, okay.
我该怎么做才能摆脱这种状况？我又能过上怎样的生活？
What can I do to get out of this, and what life do I get?
是的。
Yes.
我不是说你不能工作。
You I'm not saying you can't work.
我不是说你不能没有债务。
I'm not saying you can't have no debt.
但当你买一辆车时，你究竟在做什么？
But when you buy a car, what are you really doing?
你是真的在买你想要的那辆车，还是说车的某些部分只是为了向世人展示你开的是什么车？
Are you buying the exact car you want, or is any part of that the car the world sees you drive?
你告诉我你有车了。
You tell me you've got the car.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I'm saying?
这让你对自己感觉更好了吗？
Did it make you feel better about yourself?
是的。
Yeah.
这挺酷的，对于
It's pretty cool for
少数人来说。
a few.
没错。
Exactly.
但是吉姆，但我并不在意即将到来的升级。
But but Jim, but but I'm not bothered about the upgrade that's coming.
是的。
Yeah.
我对这件事感觉有点空落落的。
I feel a bit empty about that.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
一旦你达到了那个阶段，就无法回头了，对吧？这是一段旅程。
It's like once you've reached that point, you can't It's the journey, right?
明白了。
Got it.
我们能聊聊你的圣诞礼物吗？
Can we talk about your Christmas present?
不行。
No.
不太行。
Not really.
我们能谈谈你的圣诞礼物吗？
Can we talk about your Christmas present?
不行。
No.
别这样。
Come on.
我觉得这很重要。
I think it's important.
不行。
No.
因为我已经接受了一个事实：我讨厌它。
Because I've I've already come to terms with the fact I hate it.
你穿着它呢。
You're wearing it.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
我觉得这非常重要。
I think it's so important.
我觉得我的一个朋友一直让我读勒内·吉拉尔。
I think one of my friends keeps telling me to read Renee Girard.
我还没读过。
I haven't yet.
还有另一个视频是查马斯谈勒内·吉拉尔，他讲到了我们所有的欲望。
And there was another video of Chamath talking about Renee Girard, and he talks about all these desires we have.
明白吗？
Okay?
这些欲望往往会把你卷入与他人的竞争，进而引发冲突。
And the desires tend to put you in competition with others and then puts you in conflict.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以在一个正常的职场环境中，比如我们在一个大办公室里，你知道你想要那辆车。
So in a normal, say, work environment, say we're in a big office, You know, you know you want the car.
你知道你想要那栋房子。
You know you want the house.
你知道你想要雨果·博斯的西装，或者我不知道的汤姆·福特西装，还有那些你想要的所有东西。
You know you want the Hugo Boss suit or the, I don't know, Tom Ford suit and all that shit you want.
对吧？
Right?
你旁边有个男人，那边有个女孩，他们都想争取同一个职位。
There's a guy next to you and another girl there, and they're all going for the same job.
而你们实际上是在为这些肤浅的欲望相互竞争，彼此之间因此产生了一些怨恨。
And you're actually competing with each other for those thin desires, and there's a bit of resentment that comes between you.
也许政治就是这种我们所有人都渴望的肤浅欲望所引发的集体怨恨。
And and maybe politics is just mass resentment for these thin desires we all really want.
这就是为什么你昨天看的时候会那样想，好吧。
That's why it like, when you watched it yesterday okay.
所以，出于某种原因，通用决定退出保守派，转投改革派。
So Generic, for whatever reason, has decided to quit the conservatives and join reform.
我们知道他必须为自己的错误负责。
We know that he needs to own his mistakes.
对吧？
Right?
但你看着他，会不会觉得，你知道吗？
But is he on do you look at him and go, do know what?
这个通用，他看起来像是个真诚的人。
That Generic, he seems like an authentic guy.
他看起来像是个正直、关心这个国家和社区的人。
He seems like a stand up guy who cares about this country and community.
还是说，他看着保守派，心想：好吧。
Or has he looked at at the conservatives and said, alright.
我是那个即将成为一个已死政党领袖的热门人选。
I'm the favorite to become leader of a party that's dead.
我该如何在政坛上继续下去？
How do I stay in politics?
我该如何在政坛上继续下去？
How do I stay in politics?
如果我加入改革党，一旦他们获胜，我立刻就能当上部长，而且当奈杰尔卸任后，我也很可能成为下一任领导人。
Well, if I join reform, I'm instantly gonna be a minister when they, you know, win, and I'm probably a good chance of being the next guy if, you know, when Nigel's done.
在改革党领导下，我成为首相的可能性比在保守党下更大。
I'm more likely to become prime minister under reform than I am the Conservative.
我的意思是，我不怪他做出这种自私的决定，但我觉得他首先考虑的是国家吗？
I mean, I don't blame him for making that selfish move, but do I think he thinks of the country for what what's he going first?
他是以个人事业为目标，还是以国家为重？
Is he personal career goals or country?
他只考虑自己。
He's personal.
是的。
Yeah.
自私。
Selfish.
所以我不怪他这么做。
So I don't I don't blame him for it.
但我并不信任他这么做。
I don't trust him for it.
我不怪他。
I don't blame him.
我只是好奇，我们所建立的社会是否迫使你变得更加自私？
I just wonder though, does the society we built pushed you to become more selfish?
因为你必须为自己着想，因为没人会替你着想。
Because you have to think about yourself because no one else will.
我们本就该自私。
We should be selfish.
不。
No.
我同意，我们在生活中追求自己想要的东西时应该自私一点。
I agree we should be selfish in what we want out of life.
我说的是我们微不足道的欲望。
I'm on about our thin desires.
那是另一回事。
They're a separate thing.
我们是否创造了一个促使我们追逐错误事物的社会？
Are we creating have we created a society that gets us to chase for the wrong things?
让我回到政治这个话题。
So let me let me come back to that point on the politics.
所以他加入了那个政党。
So so he joins the party.
奈杰尔·法拉奇称他是个骗子。
Nigel Farage has called him a fraud.
是的。
Yeah.
Z一直在贬低他。
Z has been slagging him off.
但现在他有空了。
But now he's available.
好吧，我们可以忘掉那件事了。
Well, we can forget about that.
伙计，伙计。
Buddy buddy.
伙计，伙计。
Buddy buddy.
那么，他们的目标是什么？
Well, what's their objective?
他们并不想不得不与保守党组成联合政府。
Well, they don't want to have to do a coalition with the conservatives.
我的意思是，他们昨天才刚狠狠打击了保守党。
I mean, they've literally just speared the conservatives yesterday.
保守派完蛋了。
Conservatives are done.
说实话，我认为只有一个可能拯救保守派的办法，那就是他们低头去求鲁珀特·洛尔，请他来当我们的领袖。
There's, like, literally one I think there's one world that could save the conservatives, and that is if they went cap in hand to Rupert Lohr and said, please come and become our leader.
我认为这对改革来说将是一个真正的难题。
I think that that would be a real problem for reform.
这会是一个真正的威胁，因为我知道如果鲁珀特真的这么做，他会去说，是的。
That'd be a real threat because I know if Rupert ever did it, he would go and say, yeah.
我会当领袖。
I'll be a leader.
对。
Right.
保守党总部。
CCHQ.
滚蛋。
Fuck off.
你们自由派在党内待了好久了。
All you liberals have been in the party for ages.
滚开。
Fuck off.
他会彻底重建政党，从零开始重塑整个党。
And he would go completely restore the party rebuild the party from scratch.
但我不认为这会发生。
But I don't think that's gonna happen.
所以保守派已经完了。
So conservatives are are gone.
但昨天这些人，你看了那个记者会和提问环节吗？
But all these people yesterday, did you watch the press conference with the questions?
比如罗伯特·盖纳迪克，你前几天还说你永远不会加入改革派，结果现在你刚加入他们。
Where from there like, well, Robert Generic, you you the other day said you would never ever join reform, and now you've just joined them.
当你在他还是保守派成员时问他问题，你觉得他会怎么回答？
It's like, what what do you think he's gonna say when you ask him a question while he's still in the conservatives?
你以后会加入改革党吗？
Will you ever join reform?
他就像说，是的。
He's like, yeah.
其实，我正在考虑这件事。
Actually, I'm thinking about it.
我实际上正在和奈杰尔聊这件事。
I'm actually having a chat with Nigel about it.
别开玩笑了。
Of fucking not.
这些问题太蠢了。
The questions are so dumb.
但你之前也说，也许你本该直接说‘是的’。
But then you also said, maybe you should have just said yeah.
因为你是在要求诚实。
Well because you're asking for honesty.
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