Anthropic 的构建方式以及工程领域即将迎来的变革 | Thariq Shihipar

所以，给一个HTML文件比给截图更好，对吧？

So like it's better to give an HTML file than a screenshot, right?

给一个Figma文件比给位图或类似的东西更好，对吧？

It's better to give a Figma file than like a raster image or something, right?

因为现在如果Claude想知道这个东西的圆角半径，它就会想，哦，这个Figma组件的圆角半径是多少，然后我直接复制过来。

Cause now if Claude wants to know the border radius of this thing, it's like, oh, what's the Figma component border radius and let me just copy it over.

所以我觉得给它一堆代码形式的参考是个很好的方法，对吧？

And so I think giving it a bunch of references, in code is a really good way, right?

这样能让它坚持这个风格。

Of like getting it to stick to this.

我觉得如果不是这样，你可以让它，如果你没有，比如你不是设计师，可能第一步就是承认，好吧，我不是设计师。

I think if not, you can then ask it to, if you don't have like, let's say you're not a designer, there's probably step one is being like, okay, I'm not a designer.

关于设计有很多我不懂的地方，你知道吗？

There's a lot I don't know about design, you know?

而且关于迭代也有很多我不懂的地方。

And like, there's a lot I don't know about iteration.

我甚至不知道什么才算好。

I don't even know what good looks like.

我觉得这就是和设计师合作的艺术的一部分。

And I think this is like part of the art of working with the designers.

他们就是知道什么才算好，然后会说，这样还不够好，哪里哪里不行。

Like, they will just know what good looks like and they'll be like, this isn't good enough in this way.

对吧？

Right?

然后他们就会去引导它。

And they like prompt it.

我觉得这也是一种技能，而且会越来越有价值，就是知道什么才是好的输出。

And that I think is also a skill that will keep getting valuable and even more valuable over time is just like, what is good output?

什么值得做？

What is worth doing?

对。

Right.

比如说，就拿黎曼猜想来说，Jared 提出了它，但他根本不知道对不对，直到 Lev——你知道，他是世界顶尖的数学家之一——来确认。

Like, think, for example, with the, the Riemann hypothesis, Jared prompted it, but he had no idea if it was correct until like Lev, who was like, you know, one of the world's best mathematicians.

所以就像，好吧，这到底对不对呢？

So it was like, you know, okay, like how do I, is this correct?

对。

Right.

然后他就跟它一起工作，问了一大堆后续问题，我们完全跟不上。

And he worked with it and he asked it like tons of follow-up questions and we could not follow that at all.

我们根本不知道他在说什么。

We had no idea what he was saying.

对。

Right.

但他真的非常感兴趣。

But he was like really intrigued.

所以我觉得，越来越多地，成为那种高级用户，并且对某个领域的问题有深入了解，才是获得好结果的关键，对吧？

And so I think more and more being that like high case user and like knowing a lot about a problem in a domain space is how you get good outputs, right?

这就是解决这些问题的方法。

That's how you solve these problems.

否则，也许Claude确实解决了物理问题之类的，但你根本不会知道，对吧？

Otherwise like maybe Claude did solve like physics or something, but you just wouldn't know it, right?

就像你，你对它了解不够。

Like you're like, you don't know enough about it.

所以我觉得，当谈到设计时，你首先要做的是如何提升自己的设计品味，对吧？

And so I think when you're talking about design, the first thing you do is how do you become more tasteful with design, right?

你也可以这样问Claude，对吧？

And so you can ask Claude that as well, right?

比如你可以说，嘿，我不是设计师。

Like you can be like, Hey, I'm not a designer.

我想在设计方面变得更好。

I want to be better at design.

我甚至不知道该怎么表达。

I don't even have the language.

首先，也许我们可以找一些参考网站。

First, maybe let's find some reference sites.

然后你找一些参考网站，接着你会说，这是我喜欢的，或者这是我不喜欢的。

Then maybe you pull some reference sites and then you're like, This is what I like, or this is what I don't like.

对吧？

Right?

然后你慢慢积累这些参考，把它们给Claude，现在也许你告诉它，嘿，我们来探索一下。

And then you sort of build up those references and you give Claude it and now maybe you tell it, Hey, let's do some exploration.

这大概就是我的品味。

This is sort of my taste.

然后它会做几个不同的设计稿，对吧？

And then it'll do like a few different mockups, right?

我喜欢把这些设计稿都用HTML来做，因为这样都是独立的，容易修改。

And I like to do these mockups all in HTML because it's all self contained, easy to edit.

然后一旦你有了那个，你知道，那个参考现在就成了一个参考。

And then once you have that, you know, that reference now it's a reference.

所以现在你可以这样，开个新会话，然后说，嘿，这是我想要的设计的模型，开始实现它吧。

So now you can be like, you can make a new session and be like, Hey, this is a mockup of a design I want, start implementing this.

然后，你知道，它会有所有的代码，你就可以开始往那个方向走了。

And, you know, it will have all of it in code and you can start getting there.

但我觉得真正难的部分就是知道，哦，什么时候算够好了，你知道，什么时候可以再逼一把，对吧？

But I think that like the really hard part is just knowing like, oh, when is something good enough, you know, versus like when can you push harder, right?

你在很多数学证明里也能看到这个，对吧？

And you see this with a lot of the math proofs too, right?

就像Karin的Tau那样，说，行了，别搞那些半吊子的定理了，直接做完整的定理，你懂吧？

And when like Karin's Tau is like, okay, enough with the half complete theorems, just do the full theorem, you know?

所以我觉得这听起来简单，但需要很多领域知识和专业经验才能达到那种程度，就是，好吧，看起来你够聪明能搞定这个，现在去做吧。

And so I think like it sounds simple, but it takes a lot of domain knowledge and expertise to get to the point to be like, okay, like it seems like you're smart enough to have done that, now do this.

我当软件工程师的时候，有很多那种，我猜是所谓的粘合写作工作，就是你完成一些工作然后写个发布帖，或者你参与某个工作流，每两到四周得发个更新，或者你可能要写方向文档或设计文档，所有这些围绕你实际写的软件的写作。

When I was a software engineer, there was a lot of, I guess it was like glue writing work, kind of, where you finish some work and you write a launch post, or you are part of some work stream and you gotta post an update every two to four weeks, or maybe you have a direction doc or design doc, and all this writing around the software that you actually write.

想听听你的看法，在Anthropic这种情况有没有变化，有多少是LLM写的，有多少还是人写的？

Curious your thoughts on if that's changed at all at Anthropic, how much of that is written by LLMs and how much of that is human written still?

我的经验法则是，如果我会很乐意给别人看这个提示词，那我也会把输出发给他们，对吧？

My rule of thumb is like, if I would be happy to show someone the prompt, I would send them the output, right?

所以很多时候，提示词只是用来收集背景信息，这是最常见的用法，对吧？

And so a lot of times the prompt is just collecting context is the most common one, right?

比如说，每次和经理一对一开会之前，我会让Claude去读所有的Slack消息、GitHub消息，还有PR，然后整理出一份我做了什么的报告，对吧？

So for example, before every one on one with my manager, I asked Claude to, you know, read every Slack message and GitHub message and, you know, or PR and compile like, you know, a report of what I did, right?

这些背景信息经理是没有的，因为他们不可能真的去读每一个PR什么的。

And, that's context that my manager doesn't have because they haven't been literally reading every PR or something.

所以如果经理也能运行这个命令，但里面没有我的背景信息，我也不会觉得不好意思。

And so I don't feel bad if like my manager could also run this command, but it doesn't have my context.

而且我也不介意他们知道这是我用来生成这个命令的提示词，对吧？

And I don't feel bad with them knowing that this is the prompt I used to generate this command, right?

所以，我觉得同样地，如果你要分享更新之类的，你可能需要证明你已经读过了。

So, I think likewise, like if you're sharing updates or something like that, you know, like, you might want to prove that you've read it.

我觉得这很重要，有时候一些小修改就是证明你真正理解了这份工作的方式，对吧？

You know, I think this is important and sometimes like little edits are ways of proving that you have also understood this work, right?

所以如果只是数据报告，你可能就是检查一下数字是否合理，这些是不是你本来想包含的所有数字。

And so if it's just like a data readout, you know, maybe you're sanity checking, like the numbers make sense and this, like, these are all the numbers you intended to include.

在这个过程中，你可能会换个格式，或者加上一句你自己的话。

And as part of that, maybe you format it differently or you add like a little sentence on your behalf.

对。

Right.

但我觉得归根结底，这还是数据报告。

And, but I think ultimately it's a data readout.

大家都知道你写的提示词就是，嘿，根据这些生成这个功能的数据报告，这样就行了。

Everyone knows the prompt you wrote is like, Hey, like generate a readout on this feature based on this and you're fine.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你是在推销一个新概念或新想法，你的提示词是，帮我为这个产品想个新概念，对吧？

But like, I think if you're pitching like a new concept or a new idea and your prompt is like, help me come up with a new concept for, you know, this product, right?

那你至少得让人觉得你是真心相信这个想法的。

Like you probably at least people want you to know that want to know that you've like believed in it.

对吧？

Right?

所以，即使你觉得Claude的想法很棒，甚至一字不改，你也不会改动任何东西。

And so like, even if you think Claude's idea is incredible and just verbatim, you wouldn't change anything.

我想说的是，我会说，嘿，这是Claude生成的。

What I would say is like, I'd be like, Hey, Claude generated this.

但我认为它很棒。

But I think it's great.

你知道，我做了大概100次不同的生成，我觉得这个特别好。

You know, like I, or I did like a 100 different generations and I think this was really good.

然后这里有一些我想发给你的东西。

And here is like something, you know, that I want to send you.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得，坦诚相告是好的，对吧？

And so I think that like, it's good to be upfront about it, I think, right?

因为我确实觉得，人们不喜欢的是当他们觉得自己被误导了一点，比如，哦，你，我们以为你在做这项工作，但你知道，实际上是Claude做的，对吧？

Because I do think what people don't like is when they feel like they've been like misled a little bit like, Oh, like you, we thought you were doing this work, but you know, it's really Claude, right?

而且我觉得写作有时候会有很多，比如，写作的某些部分，单个的词很重要，你知道，有趣的是，推特我觉得就是一个例子，每条推特本身都很重要，对吧？

And I think that like, writing sometimes can have a lot of, like, there are some parts of writing where individual words matter, you know, like funnily, like tweets are, I think an example of this where like the individual tweet matters, right?

所以，越来越你不能用Claude来做那个，因为就像，每个词都有你投入的思考和意图。

So, like more and more, you can't use Claude to do that because it's like, like every word has some thought that you've put into it and some intention that you've put into it.

所以，你知道，是的，一个提案或者一篇文章之类的。

So like, you know, yeah, a pitch or an essay or something like that.

我们在Anthropic内部写很多内部文章，比如，嘿，这就是为什么我认为我们应该这样做。

We do a lot of like internal essays Anthropic being like, Hey, this is why I think we should do this.

那通常都是全人类写的。

And that's generally like all human written.

我觉得，让Claude写你的文章，这是很被人看不起的，你懂我的意思吗？

It's very looked down upon, think, to have like Claude, like your essay written by Claude, you know what I mean?

因为每个词都是你有意为之的。

Because like every word is something that you are intentional about.

所以听起来，那些比较无聊的写作部分，比如数据报告、一对一更新、工作流更新，这些越来越由AI来做，但总是会有人工审核。

So it sounds like the proportion of the writing that's all that boring route writing, like the data readouts, the one on one updates, the work stream updates, that's increasingly becoming AI, but always reviewed by a human.

而新颖的想法和方向仍然主要由人来写，而且感觉即使模型再好一点，也应该保持这样。

And then the novel thoughts, novel direction is still very human written and feels like it should remain that way even if the models were a little bit better too.

对，我觉得写作也是一种思考方式，对吧？

Yeah, I think it's like if you're, writing is also a way of thinking, right?

所以如果你需要更多思考数据流或数据报告，也许你需要先总结一下。

And so maybe if you need to think about the data stream or data readout more, then maybe you need to summarize it.

但确实，我觉得尤其是收集背景信息这种事情，没有人会因此责怪你，对吧？

But yeah, I think like, especially gathering context is one of those things where no one will ever like hold it against you kind of, right?

比如，你做了很多研究，然后Claude帮你做了这些，但我不想让我的代理去做同样的研究。

Like, oh, like, you know, you did a bunch of research and Claude did this, but yeah, like I don't want to ask my agent to do the same research.

这是一种捷径，但承认这一点是好的。

It's a shortcut, but just acknowledging it is good.

我认识的另一个人，他有个想法，就是如果能有一个类似git blame的东西，但它是提示词blame，那就太好了，因为这样可以反向查找是哪个提示词生成了这个改动，方便调试。

Someone else I was talking to, they had this thought of it would be valuable to have almost like a git blame, but it's like a prompt blame, because it would be nice to reverse look up what was the prompt that generated this change to kind of debug things.

你对生成软件的提示词有没有什么元版本控制，还是说还是普通的git历史记录？

Do you have any sort of meta version control on the prompts that generated the software, or is it still very vanilla, you know, git history?

这个有点难，因为提示词不只是提示词本身，还包括上下文、技能之类的。

Yeah, that is a little bit tough because again, like, you know, what goes into a prompt is not just the prompt, but also like context and skills and things like that.

所以可能一个提示词看起来简单，但实际上不简单，我觉得挺难判断的。但就像我提交PR的时候，我觉得现在的PR和Claude生成的东西没什么区别，基本上都是Claude在写代码，对吧？

So like maybe, you know, a prompt might seem basic, but isn't, I think it's kind of hard to judge, but I do, you know, like going back to like when I'm giving a PR, I don't think a PR at this point is any different than an artifact or something like Claude is doing basically all the code writing, right?

所以我给别人发PR的时候，通常也会附上我给Claude的每个提示词，包括失败的尝试之类的，这样他们就能看到我考虑了很多其他方案。

So if I send someone a PR, I usually also attach an artifact of every prompt I sent to Claude, including failed like approaches and things like that, you know, so that they can see like, okay, I've considered a lot of other things, you know?

如果我没有，只是单次生成的，我就会直接告诉别人，嘿，这是单次生成的例子。

And if I haven't, if this is just a one shot, I just tell people, I'm like, Hey, this is the one shot example.

这是我用的提示词。

This is the prompt I used.

对。

Right.

我觉得这通常也会让他们觉得印象深刻和有趣，因为他们会觉得，哇，Claude能一次性搞定这个，真厉害。

And, I think that's like usually impressive and interesting to them as well, because they're like, oh, like it's cool that Claude could one shot this.

但最糟糕的是，你发一个一万行的PR，然后他们问，你读过多少？

But the worst is when you get like, you I'm just trying to avoid cases where I send in like this 10,000 line PR and they're like, how much have you read this?

或者说，你和Claude一起做了多少？

Or like, much did you work with Claude on it?

如果我要发一个大的PR，我会尽可能展示我的工作过程。

And if I'm doing like a large PR, I am going to show my work as much as possible.

在维护代码方面，因为AI现在能生成大量代码，你在Anthropic有没有什么关于代码所有权和维护的好建议？

On maintaining code, because AI can generate such high volumes of code at this point, do you have any tips on what's worked well at Anthropic for code ownership and maintenance?

我觉得确实需要重新思考代码维护中什么才是重要的。

I do think you have to revisit what is important with code maintenance.

以前命名很重要，因为那是团队理解抽象和功能的方式。

And so I think that there are some things where naming used to be really important because it was how you as a team thought about this abstraction and feature.

但现在我觉得命名越来越不重要了。

But I think naming is becoming less and less important.

很多代码风格上的东西也越来越不重要了，你知道吗？

A lot of stylistic things in code are becoming less and less important, you know?

而且我觉得，这对我来说跟维护不是一回事，对吧？

And I think that like, this is not the same to me as maintenance, right?

所以我觉得，你可能需要坐下来想想，好吧，现在真正重要的是什么？

So I think that like, if you might want to sit down and be like, okay, like what things really matter now?

哪些是我们觉得重要但其实并不重要的观点？

What don't, what opinions do we have that don't matter?

这是第一点。

That's one.

然后第二点，从维护的角度来说，就是要有好的脚手架，对吧？

And then I think on the second, on the maintenance side is sort of like having good scaffolding, right?

所以我觉得，就是要有好的验证工具，还有好的技能。

So I think that it's like having a good verification harness, having a good like sort of skills.

我们经常用简化技能。

We use the simplified skill a lot.

我觉得，有时候甚至从模型的角度来看，它可能做了很多工作，然后甚至只是给它许可，让它说，嘿，我觉得这个想法是对的。

I think that like, sometimes even from a model perspective, like it might do a lot of work and then like, even just giving it permission to be like, Hey, I think this is the right, idea.

我们把它简化一下。

Let's simplify it.

给它这个许可去做。

Gives it that permission to do it.

对。

Right.

但你不希望模型默认先做工作再简化，对吧。

But like you actually don't want a model to by default do work and then simplify, right.

因为可能不正确，对吧。

Because, maybe it's not correct, right.

你不希望它简化不正确的工作。

Like you don't want it to simplify work.

那不对。

That's not correct.

就像在浪费令牌。

It's like, you're wasting tokens.

对。

Right.

所以我觉得这也是人类的思考方式，对吧。

And so I think this is also how humans think, right.

他们就是，你知道的，你先发散性地想，尝试着去接近，然后可能再简化、抽象一下。

They're like, you know, you think generatively, you try and approach and then maybe you like simplify and abstract a little.

所以我觉得，在你自己的代码库里，或者是在建立那些技能和实践中，有些工作就是，你知道的，你不是直接提交第一版，而是先简化一下，再试一下。

So I think there's like some work inside your own code base or like setting up those skills and that for those practices where you're like, you know, you're not just submitting like the first take, but you've like simplified it and tried it.

然后，是的，要有一个非常好的验证框架，让你觉得自己能抓住问题，就是，你很有信心Claude会测试每一个部分。

And then like, yeah, having a really good verification harness where you feel like you're catching, you know, like you have a good belief that Claude is like testing every part of it.

比如，你知道的，当你向Claude Code提交一个PR时，你会收到一个它使用该功能并作为示例进行测试的录像，对吧？

Like, you know, when you submit a PR to Claude Code, you get a recording back of it using the feature and testing it as an example, right?

而且你可以用各种非常有创意的方式来测试东西。

And you can just get really, really creative with different ways to like, test stuff.

我觉得你基本上应该拥有比你以前多大约100倍的测试代码。

Like, I think you should basically have on the order of, I'd say more like a 100 times more testing code than you've ever had before.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以你应该为所有东西准备测试夹具。

So like, you should have, fixtures for everything.

你可以直接拉取生产代码，随时为数据库创建夹具和模拟数据。

You can just pull production code and create fixtures and mockups on the fly for databases.

你可以为前端准备故事书之类的工具。

You can, have story books for front end and things like that.

你可以用所有这些不同的方式来测试和验证你的代码。

And you can have all these different ways of testing and verifying your code.

我觉得这对可维护性真的很有价值，对吧？

And that I think is really valuable for maintainability, right?

就是有所有这些验证代码的方式。

It's like, just having like all these ways of verifying it.

然后，当然，还有人的因素，比如你希望你的代码库往哪个方向发展？

And then, yeah, of course, like there's just like the human element of like, where do you want your code base to go?

如果你知道情况是这样，可能你就会开始考虑，你知道，重放、撤销和重做变得非常重要，对吧？

If you know that's the case, probably you start thinking about like, you know, how you'd replay and undo and redo becomes really important, right?

就是这类事情。

Like just like that sort of stuff.

但如果只是单机游戏，那其实就没那么重要了，你知道，普通用户不会撤销一百次之类的，对吧？

But if it's single player only, that actually matters a little bit less, you know, like the average user is not going to undo a 100 times or something, right?

所以，很多单机应用的撤销功能很快就失效了，比如，四五次之后就不行了，对吧？

And so like, you know, many like single player applications undo stop working pretty quickly, like, you know, after like four or five times, right?

因为那不太重要，但在多人游戏中，把不同的东西组合在一起的能力，或者说把不同的操作组合在一起的能力，就非常重要了。

Just cause it's not that important, but in multiplayer, the ability to compose different things together is really important or compose different operations together is is really important.

所以，这就是一个例子，如果你知道你的代码库的方向，你会有一些你关心的东西，你希望模型知道，而且，你可以把这些纳入你的技能中。

And so, that's just an example where like, if you know the direction of your code base, there are things you care about and you want the models to know, and, you know, you can include that in your skills.

你也可以，你知道，对我来说，可维护性就是对你的代码库擅长什么、要往哪里发展有一个愿景，并且保持它的一致性。

You can also just like, you know, like that's sort of what maintainability means to me is like having a vision for what your code base is good at, where you're going, you know, keeping it in line.

我确实觉得模型变得越来越好了。

I do think the models are getting better and better and better.

而且我觉得几乎每个代码库都会遇到这样一个时刻，你会想，是不是直接让模型把整个代码重写一遍？

And like almost every code base probably I think will have this moment where you're like, do you just ask the model to rewrite all of it?

你懂吧？

You know?

因为现在你会觉得，哦，我可以用最高性能的语言来做这件事。

And like, because now you're like, oh, like I can do it in the most performant language.

我可以混搭各种技术。

I can mix and match.

就是说，世界上所有的软件都没有理由不能在浏览器里用WebAssembly运行。

Like, you know, like there's not a reason that every software in the world shouldn't run-in WebAssembly in the browser.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

没有理由说，嗯，你的Xbox游戏不能在浏览器里运行，对吧？

There's not a reason why, I don't know, like your Xbox game can't run-in your browser actually, right?

现在的游戏主机硬件其实比一般的MacBook要弱得多。

Like the hardware, like the consoles are much weaker than your average like MacBook right now.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

但问题就在于代码库本身，对吧？

But it's just like the code base, right?

但我们可以，所以我觉得可能在未来一两年内，每个人都需要考虑这个问题，对吧？

But we could like, and so I think probably over the next year or two, like everyone's going to need to think about that, right?

所以我觉得你不应该花太多时间担心可维护性，因为这种方式可能不再重要了。

And so I don't think you wanna spend too much time worrying about maintainability in this way that might not matter anymore.

我不是说可维护性不重要。

I'm not saying maintainability doesn't matter.

你只需要更新你对代码可维护性的理解。

You just have to update your mental model of what does it mean for code to be maintainable?

我跟一个朋友聊过，他说他留下了大量的技术债务，因为为什么要现在花时间修复呢？下一版Fable会一次性解决这些技术债务并帮我重构。

I was talking to this friend who was saying that he leaves tons and tons of tech debt leaving around because the next, why waste time fixing that now when the next iteration of Fable's gonna one shot all this tech debt and refactor this for me?

挺有意思的。

Kind of funny.

对，我觉得这话也不算完全错。

Yeah, I don't think that's completely incorrect.

这得看情况，对吧？

It depends on the circumstance, right?

其实这也是创业公司里的老问题了，对吧？

Like, I think this is also just a classic thing in startups, right?

就像，你知道，即使在普通工程里，你总会遇到这种问题：嘿，我要不要重构？

Where you're like, you know, even in normal human engineering, you always have this problem of like, Hey, do I refactor?

要不要处理技术债？

Do I do tech debt?

还是说多给客户创造点价值？

Or do I deliver more customer value?

重构现在能帮我更快给客户带来价值吗？

Would refactoring help me deliver more customer value right now?

我确实觉得，总的来说，你应该用更短的时间尺度来考虑你的项目。

I do think that like, just generally, I think you should think on your projects on shorter timescales.

所以你会想，好，我接下来一两个月怎么创造价值？

So you're like, okay, how do I deliver value over the next month or two?

如果你说的项目是要在六个月或十二个月内创造价值，那也许可以等等下一代模型，然后在短期内创造价值，确保做得特别好。

And if the project you're talking about is delivering value over six months or twelve months, you know, then maybe, yeah, maybe like wait for the next model a little bit, you know, and then like that, like just deliver value on like the short time scale, make sure it's like, you know, really good.

如果模型还不够好，它们可能很快就能达到要求。

And if the models are not quite good enough, like they might get there soon.

这非常取决于具体情况，对吧？

It depends very much on the specific case, right?

我不是说所有情况都这样，但这是你应该记住的一点。

And I'm not saying this is true of everything, but just something you should keep in mind.

我跟一些在谷歌、脸书这样的大科技公司工作的朋友聊过，随着他们越来越依赖AI，大家注意到事故或SEV（严重事件）变多了。

I've talked to some friends who work at big tech companies like Google, Facebook, those types of places, And then as they've become more and more AI pilled, one thing that people have noticed is there's a lot more incidents or SEVs in their usage.

在这些组织里这很正常，因为他们读代码少了，代码产出却更多了。

And it's natural in those organizations because they read the code less and there's more code flying out.

在代码速度这么快的情况下，Anthropic用了哪些有效的对策来防止故障？

What countermeasures have worked really well for Anthropic to prevent breakages given that the code velocity is so much higher?

对，我觉得这有时候是速度加快带来的副作用，我们得想办法解决。

Yeah, I think this is something that is a byproduct of moving faster sometimes and we have to figure it out.

我觉得我们的正常运行时间也不是完全达到理想状态，但作为一家公司，我们差不多快六年了，对吧？

I don't think our uptime is exactly where we want it to be either, but also as a company, we're a little, like almost six years old, I think around, right?

所以，从来没有哪家公司发展得这么快过。

So it's like, no company has grown this fast before.

这很大程度上是因为我们能够比以前更快地推出更多产品。

And a lot of that is because we've been able to like create more products faster than ever before.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以用Claude来改善你的正常运行时间。

And so you can use Claude to make your uptime better.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们处理这个问题的方式真的很好。

And I think that like the way we think about this is just like really good.

理想的测试环境是什么样的？理想的部署环境呢？

What's the dream testing environment, the dream, like, you know, deployment environment.

比如说，你能不能把请求抓下来，然后在模拟数据库和各种测试装置上重放？

Like, can you like, take requests and replay them across mock databases and fixtures across everything?

能不能对所有东西都进行混沌测试？

Can you Chaos Monkey everything?

在我个人的工作流程里，我有好多自定义的随机工具和脚本，能让一切变得更快。

In my personal workflows, I have so many more custom random tools and scripts that just make everything faster.

我很好奇，比如在Anthropic你们团队，是不是每个人都有一些杂七杂八的工具来帮他们完成各种随机任务？

Just curious, on your team at Anthropic for instance, does everyone have a set of miscellaneous tools that help them get random things done?

是的，每个人肯定都有。

Yeah, everyone does for sure.

我觉得这算是工作的一部分。

I think part of this is the job.

我觉得有时候我们会试着摆弄各种测试框架。

I think that sometimes what we try and do is we play around with harnesses.

有时候团队里有些人会自己搭一些测试工具，先试试看，看看这玩意儿到底有没有用。

Sometimes some people on the team build their own harnesses for a little bit to figure out like, oh, is this like useful or not?

然后他们再决定，如果好用就整合进去，不好用就算了，对吧？

You know, and then they figure out if it works and if not, they like integrate it, right?

所以我觉得，这某种程度上也算是工作的一部分。

So I think there is like, that's part of the job, in some ways.

我觉得还有其他一些杂七杂八的事情，比如很多人会有自己独特的Claude Tag设置。

I think like other examples of like, sort of like misc stuff people will do, but a lot of people will have like, unique Claude Tag setups.

我觉得Claude Tag就是那种，你可以用它来安排我的日历邀请，对吧？

I think Claude Tag is one of these things where like, you know, you can have it, like I have it scheduled my calendar invites, right?

所以如果有人想跟我约时间，我就说，嘿，你直接在这个频道里@一下Claude，它就会自动把时间加到我的日历上。

And so like, if someone wants to like schedule something with me that I'm just like, Hey, you can just like tag Claude here in this channel and I'll accept whatever it like puts on my calendar.

你懂我意思吧？

You know what I mean?

所以，确实有类似这样的东西。

So, think there's like some stuff like that.

我知道很多人用它来处理邮件。

I know like a lot of people use it for like email.

我觉得，我见过一些人搞那种挺有意思的，多开Claude，类似TMUX那种设置，对吧？

I think that, I've seen like some people do like interesting, like multi clauding sort of like, TMUXing like setups, right?

比如，对你来说，理想的情况是怎么同时展示50个不同的Claude代码，然后你用什么最好的办法随时搞清楚正在发生什么。

Like what's the ideal scenario for you to like display like 50 different Claude codes and, you know, what's the best way for you to figure out what's going on at any one time.

所以，是的，我觉得有很多不同的方式，我们也在努力让Claude Code更容易被改造，这样更多人就能做出自己更独特的版本，每个人都可以有自己的小特色。

So, yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways and we're trying to make Claude Code more hackable as well so that like, more people can sort of even make their own version of Claude Code more different and everyone might have their own little twist on it.

你在Anthropic的角色真的很有意思，因为你有外部知名度，我觉得很多人在给职业建议时，知名度是好事，但他们没有这种外部知名度，那你推荐软件工程师去Twitter和X上发帖吗？如果推荐的话，你会给出什么建议？

Your role at Anthropic is really interesting because of the external visibility that you have and I think a lot of people when they give career advice, visibility is a good thing but they don't have this level of external visibility, and so do you recommend to software engineers like they should be posting on Twitter and X, and if so, what advice would you give in that sense?

一般来说，我跟别人说的是，你应该尽可能多地对外分享你的工作，尤其是在某些公司里，你可能不能这么做，但也许你有副业项目之类的。

Generally, the thing I say to people is that you should share your work externally as much as you can, especially, I think within certain companies, you might not be able to, but maybe you have side projects or something like that.

想想在我加入Anthropic之前，我做的就是花很多时间和不同公司合作，做东西，写文章，然后到处讲。

Think just before I joined Anthropic, what I did was like, I spent a bunch of time working with different companies, building stuff and writing about it and talking about it.

而且，这真的很有价值，因为它增加了我的运气面，你懂吗？

And, like, was really valuable because it like increased my surface area of luck, you know?

所以我觉得，其实门槛比你想象的要低得多。

And so I think that like, it's really like the bar is much lower than you think.

基本上每次有人问我建议，我就说，好，我坐下来跟他们聊。

Like basically whenever someone asks me for advice, I'm like, okay, I'll sit them down.

我会说，我知道从统计上看，我给很多人提过这个建议，但几乎没人去做。

I'll be like, I know statistically, I tell this advice to a lot of people and almost no one does it.

而所有做了的人，要么找到了一份自己很满意的工作，要么自己开了公司。

And everyone who's done it is like either in a job that they're pretty excited about or running their own company.

你会有各种理由不想去做，但我只能告诉你一点，别太在意你的简历。

And there are reasons why you're not going to want to do it, but like, this is, I just can tell you one, like, don't care about your resume.

就是，你知道，别那样做。

Like, like, you know, don't do that.

你得选一个有趣的项目去做。

You have to choose like an interesting project to work on.

你得在上面下很大的功夫。

You have to work really hard on it.

你得专注投入，然后把它做出来，并且写文章分享。

You have to like lock in and then you have to ship it and write about it.

你必须得做。

Like you have to do it.

你会有很多理由不想做。

You can't like, there's going be so many reasons why you don't want to.

比如觉得还不够好，或者觉得写的东西不够有趣之类的，但你必须做，而且不能灰心。

It's like not good enough yet, or like you haven't like, you think the write up is not very interesting or something, but you have to do it and you can't get discouraged.

也许第一次不成功，但你得再试一次。

Like maybe the first one might not work, but you have to do it again.

也许Twitter不是合适的地方。

And maybe Twitter is not the right place.

也许是Reddit，或者某个特定的Reddit板块，或者Hacker News之类的。

Maybe it's Reddit, maybe there's a specific Reddit or Hacker News or something like that.

你的一部分目标就是找到那些喜欢你做的事情的人，对吧？

Part of what you're trying to do is you're just trying to find people who like what you're doing, right?

但我觉得现在大家总体上比以往任何时候都更想消费更多内容。

But I think that like people in general want to really consume more content than ever.

你也知道这一点，对吧？

And you know this, right?

我觉得人们想要真正高质量的内容。

I think that people want really high quality content.

高质量的内容，你也知道，需要付出很多努力。

High quality content, as you know, is a lot of work.

所以我觉得回到我们之前说的，比如你会不会给别人看你做的提示词，对吧？

And so I think going back to like what we said before about like, would you show someone the prompt you did, right?

我觉得很多时候人们会问，哦，有什么捷径吗？

Like, I think a lot of times people are like, Oh, what's the shortcut?

比如，哦，我是不是应该直接让Claude帮我管理我的推特账号？

Like, Oh, like, should I just ask Claude to manage my Twitter account?

然后就这样增长粉丝吗？

And is that how I like grow in?

我就说，不对，你不应该那样做，对吧？

I'm like, no, like you should not do that, right?

你得真诚地去互动。

Like you have to sort of engage authentically.

你得发帖，做好工作，然后聊聊这些。

You have to like post, like, you know, do good work and talk about it.

还要建立人脉网络之类的。

And I think like build up networks and things like that.

但我觉得，只要这是你的目标之一，并且你努力去做，我还没见过谁不成功的，但这真的很难。

But I think that as long as that's one of your goals and you try hard at it, I haven't seen anyone not succeed at it, but it is really hard.

这有点像说，哦，我想每天去健身房，或者我想减肥之类的。

It's kind of like saying like, oh, I want to like go to the gym every day or I want to like lose weight or something.

你知道，有些事情很简单，但需要很多自律，容易让人灰心，但如果你坚持做，是值得的。

You know, like there are simple things that you can do that take a lot of discipline and are easy to get discouraged with, but worth doing if you do it.

我觉得发帖，或者更具体地说，写关于你工作的内容，真的非常非常有价值。

And I think posting or more specifically writing about your work is I think really, really valuable.

你提到了运气表面积。

You mentioned luck surface area.

你有没有一个例子能说明扩大运气表面积的价值？

Do you have an example that kind of illustrates the value of expanding your luck surface area?

对。

Yeah.

好，我是怎么在Anthropic得到这份工作的？

Okay, how did I get my job at Anthropic?

我在一家叫Goodfire的公司做过一个研究项目，做了一些应用研究。

I did a fellowship with a company called Goodfire where I did like some applied research.

他们是一家做可解释性AI的公司。

And so they're an interpretability AI company.

我当时在想，怎么用可解释性来做出更好的产品。

And I was trying to figure out like, how do I use interpretability to make better products?

所以我了解了他们的研究，然后我觉得我想做一个项目，而且对我来说，分享这个项目非常重要。

And so I learned about their research, and I, like felt like I want to work on a project and it was really important for me to like share it.

所以当我同意和他们合作时，我就想，我的目标就是分享我正在做的事情。

And so like, when I agreed to work with them, I was like, that's my goal is I want to like share what I'm building.

我觉得这对你也有好处，因为Goodfire是一家初创公司，你知道，人们希望别人了解他们。

I think that's good for you as well because Goodfire is a startup and you know, people, they want people to learn about them.

所以这就是我要做的事情。

And so this is something I'm going to do.

于是我做了这个可解释性可视化工具，并分享了它。

So I built this like interpretability visualization and I shared about it.

那是我在推特上发的第一篇大帖子，但只有大约500个赞之类的。现在对我来说不算什么，但当时那算是个大帖子，好几个人看到了，还有人私信我。

This was my first like big post on Twitter, but it was only like 500 likes or something like, now, like, you know, that's like not very much to me, but like, it's like back then it was like a huge post and, several people saw it and like some of them DMed me about it.

然后，就这样，我得到了一个介绍，进入了这里的某个职位。

And then, like, then got an intro into, you know, like into a role here.

所以我觉得，我花了大约一个月在那个项目上，特别是那个项目，所以并不是什么疯狂的事。

And so I think that like, I spent like a month on that project, think in particular, so it wasn't like, you know, crazy.

对，它只是向人们展示了我能做有趣的工作，而且我还因此得到了报酬。

Yeah, it just like showed people that I could like do interesting work and I got paid for it too.

所以我不是白干的。

So it wasn't like I was doing it for free.

而且有很多例子，我觉得人们很乐意为你做那种事情，只要你表现出那种主动性。

And there's plenty of examples of like, I think people are happy to do that sort of thing for you, you know, like if you like sort of show that kind of initiative.

但是，是的，你真的必须做有趣且新颖的工作，并且努力工作，为自己的工作感到自豪。

But yeah, you have to like, it is like, you really have to like do interesting and novel work and work hard to be proud of your work as well.

你知道，这没有捷径，但如果你做到了，我觉得每个人都在寻找有趣的工作，愿意支持你，愿意雇用你，或者给你钱，很多好事。

You know, there's not like a shortcut to that, I think, but, if you do, I think everyone is always looking for interesting work and wants to support you and wants to hire you or yeah, give you money, lots of good things.

我看到这个标语经常出现，和Anthropic的一些东西有关。

I see this tagline going out a lot with some of the stuff that Anthropic has been.

也许，我记得好像是Boris上了一些播客，标语是“编码基本解决了”。

Maybe like, I think it was like Boris went on some podcasts and the tagline was coding is largely solved.

如果编码基本解决了，人们还应该学编码吗？

Should people still learn to code if coding is largely solved?

我觉得懂技术真的非常重要。

I think being technical is really, really important.

了解计算机是怎么工作的，计算机程序是怎么运行的，编程语言是怎么运作的，难点在哪里，什么是后端服务，什么是缓存，什么是内存分配？

Knowing how do computers work, how do computer programs work, how do languages work, what are the hard things and what's a backend service, what's a cache, what is memory allocation?

所有这些其实都是很重要的东西，值得去学。

Like all of these things are actually kind of really important to learn.

我觉得有时候确实很难让自己有动力去做这些事，就像我当年手算数学题也没什么动力一样，但有些人就是喜欢数学，就坚持下来了。

I do think it's hard to motivate yourself sometimes to do, in the same way that like, you know, doing math by hand was not that motivating to me, you know, but some people just love math and did it.

我觉得这可能是每个人都需要自己摸索的事情，但真的值得去做。

I think that like, that's probably something that people have to figure out, but I think it is really worth it.

懂技术真的非常重要。

Like being technical is really, really important.

就像我们之前聊到的，比如你只有成为一个伟大的数学家，才能知道自己是否解决了黎曼猜想或者取得了进展，或者雅可比猜想也一样。

Like we talked about at the start of, or like earlier, we're like, Oh, the only way you can tell you've solved, you know, the Riemann hypothesis or like made progress or whatever is like, or the Jacobian conjecture is like, if you're a great mathematician, right?

同理，只有成为一个优秀的软件工程师，才能判断自己是否做出了优秀的软件。我觉得要做到这一点很难，但我们之前也聊过一些方法，比如保持参与、反思自己的过程并不断改进。

And in the same way, the only way you can tell if you're like built great software is like, if you're a great software engineer, I think that like, how do you do that is hard, but like, we've talked about some of this stuff before, just like staying in the loop, like, like reflecting on your process and getting better.

你也可以用Claude来学习，让它给你讲解一些东西。

You can use Claude to learn as well and sort of explain things to you.

所以就像把它当作一个思考伙伴，但真正的学习，我觉得Kickstarter说，学习应该让人感到费力。

So like treating it like a thought partner, But learning truly, I think Kickstarter says, Learning should feel like effort.

我觉得这就是难点之一，很多时候，即使你让Claude给你解释某件事，你可能只是点头附和，然后想‘哦，对，我学会了’，但实际上你并没有真正付出努力，对吧？

And I think that's one of the hard things is a lot of times, even if you ask Claude to explain something to you, you might just nod along and you're like, Oh yeah, I learned it, but you didn't really put any effort in, right?

所以我觉得，这确实很技术性，你应该学，而且学起来很难。

So I think that like, it is really technical, you should learn, it's hard to learn.

有时候学校逼你做的，就是去学那些东西。

And sometimes like what school forces you to do is to learn that.

说实话，我不是从零开始学编程的，所以我不太清楚现在具体该怎么学。

I don't know truly, like I'm not learning programming from scratch, so I don't know exactly how to do it now.

我觉得如果没有更好的方法，我还是会愿意把程序打出来，运行它们，然后从中学习。

I think if short of better ways, I would still like type out and build programs and run them and learn them.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

也许有更好的方法，更充分利用Claude的，但我认为这真的很重要。

There might be better ways that are more Claude informed as well, but I think it's really important.

我觉得Boris说编程已经解决了，意思就是说，你知道，我们不会再像以前那样卡住了。

I think when Boris says coding is solved, I think it just means like, you know, we don't get stuck in the same ways that we used to before.

比如，我觉得编程以前是个非常不确定的事情，你会想，哦，这个bug可能一天搞定，也可能要两周？

Like, I think coding used to be this very high variability thing where you're like, Oh, like, could this bug take a day or could it take two weeks?

有时候你完全没底，你知道吗？

You have no idea sometimes, you know?

而且我觉得总的来说，编程以前实际上就是，很少有什么事情能顺利进行的。

And I think like, on the whole coding used to be like in real terms, like something that was very rare for something to go well.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

就是全世界能写软件的人非常少，他们非常非常稀有。

Like very few people in the entire world could write software and they were very, very rare.

而且就算你把他们都聚在一起，还有很多其他原因会导致项目失败，对吧？

And even if you got them all together, there were so many other reasons why it wouldn't work, right?

编程曾经是世界上最稀有的东西之一，软件项目成功的概率，从绝对意义上来说，非常低，你知道吗？

And coding was this like one of the rarest things in the world where like the chance of software project going well was like on absolute terms, very low, you know?

而且如果你雇人给你做软件，比如不是那种大型产品，像你雇人给你的汽车经销商做软件，那你几乎肯定得不到你想要的软件。

And if you were like hiring someone to like make software for you for something that's not like a huge product, like if you're hiring someone to make software for your car dealership, you were almost certainly not going to get the software you wanted.

你基本上就是被骗了。

You're going to get like essentially scammed.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

不是有人故意骗你，只是软件真的非常非常难，而且只能用在世界上最重要、最可扩展的事情上。

Not because anyone was trying to scam you, it just like software is really, really hard and, you know, it could only be spent on like the most important scalable things in the world.

现在编码问题解决了，我觉得我们的意思是，你可以用编码去做以前没做过的各种事情，但这并不是说工作量就少了。

And now that coding is solved, I think what we mean is that like, you can use coding to do all these other things that we've not done before, but that's not to say that like, that's not a lot of work still.

只是它不再像以前那样，是一种极其罕见、大多时候根本行不通、你得每天花八个小时埋头苦干的事情。

It's just like, it's not this like incredibly rare, thing that mostly like just doesn't work and you have to spend like eight hours a day locked in to do.

嗯，这真的很疯狂。

Well, it's really insane.

这显示了期望的差异，当我用对的软件时，如果第一次就能成功，我会很惊讶。

It shows the difference in expectation is when I used the right software, I would be shocked if it worked on the first try.

我当时就想，哇，等等，为什么这个能跑起来？

I was like, woah, wait why is this working?

以前你总得费点劲，撞撞墙，然后才能跑通，哪怕只是漏了个分号之类的。现在我的预期完全反过来了，当它不工作的时候，我会想，等等，这里发生了什么？

And you expect to kind of bash your head against the wall a little bit, and then it works even if it's just like you missed the semicolon or something like that, and now I almost have the flip expectation where when it doesn't work, I'm like, wait, what happened here?

现在通常我预期它第一次就能跑通，几乎完全相反。

Usually I expect it to work almost the opposite, like on the first try.

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

对，立刻就能跑通。

Immediately, yeah.

我觉得人类很容易习惯富足。

I think humans get really used to abundance.

最近有人分享了一篇文章，讲的是走一遍现代公寓，谈论我们现在拥有的那些以前人们无法想象的奇妙东西。

There was this article someone shared recently about like going through a modern apartment and talking about all the like wonderful things that we have now that people could not have imagined before.

比如能按你的心情随时播放音乐的东西。你知道，以前你得雇个音乐家，去创作出不可思议的音乐，对吧？

Like something that can play music on demand that's suited for your mood, You know, like before you'd have to like hire a musician, you know, to like go write like, you know, incredible music, right?

但总的来说，现在靠音乐赚钱的人比以往任何时候都多，对吧？

But I'd say on the whole, more people are getting paid to make music now than ever before, right?

而且我觉得音乐现在触达的人群也比以前更广了。

Like, And I think that music is reaching more people than ever before.

我觉得软件、数学，所有这些领域可能也会发生同样的事情——当资源变得丰富时，人们就会说，太好了，我想要更多。

And I think probably the same thing will happen with software, happen with math, will happen with all of these things, where, you know, when you get abundance, people are like, great, like I want more abundance.

我希望我的软件无处不在。

I want my software and everything.

我希望我的音乐无处不在。

I want my music everywhere.

对，从这次对话中可能还能得出另一个观点，就是人们也许还是应该懂技术或者学编程。因为我们在对话开头提到过自动化知识工作，你也提到，懂技术的人会有点优势，因为他们知道怎么协调Claude去完成各种任务。

Yeah, one potential other data point from this conversation saying that maybe people should still be technical or learn how to code is I think earlier in the conversation we talked about automating knowledge work, and you mentioned that people who are technical had kind of a leg up because they could kind of understood how to coordinate Claude to do a variety of things.

比如你调用FFmpeg来自动化视频编辑，我觉得不懂技术的人不会有这种想法。

Like you're calling FFmpeg to automate some video editing, and I don't think someone who is not technical would have that thought.

所以即使在模型能做很多事情的情况下，懂技术依然非常有价值。

So it does seem like even in this case where models are doing a lot, there's still so much value in being technical.

了解计算机的工作原理，就像最懂技术的CEO往往是最好的CEO一样，对吧？

Knowing how computers work, in the same way that probably the most technical CEOs are the best CEOs are technical, right?

比如扎克伯格、马斯克，对吧？

Like Zuckerberg, Elon, right?

但他们可能很久没真正写过一行代码了，但他们理解系统如何运作，理解限制条件等等，这真的非常重要。

But they probably haven't written a line of code truly in a long time, but they understand how systems work, they understand constraints and things like that, and that's really, really important.

所以即使所有工作都变了，我认为懂技术仍然非常重要。

So even if all that work has changed, I think being technical is really, really important.

最后一个问题，如果你能回到刚入行的时候，以你现在的认知给自己一些建议，你会说什么？

And then last question for you is if you could go back to when you just entered the industry and give yourself some advice, knowing what you know now, what would you say?

这有点像两只狼，差不多。

They're kind of like two wolves, sort of.

我觉得你必须相信自己。

I think you have to believe in yourself.

我觉得这真的很重要。

I think like this is really important.

而且我觉得，至少在我刚入行的时候，相信年轻人是比较少见的。

And I think that like, at least when I joined in the industry, was rarer to believe in people when they were kind of younger.

我觉得Y Combinator的整个理念就是相信年轻人，让他们早点做出伟大的事情。

Like, I think that was like the whole point of Y Combinator or something was like believing in young people early on to do really great things.

所以我觉得，回到我们之前讨论的实习生话题，对吧？

And so I think that like, you know, even going back to like the intern discussion we had earlier, right?

我觉得，不要把自己看作是被训练去做某件事的人，而是看作能立刻做出惊人成就的人，这一点非常重要，你知道吗？

Like, I think that like thinking of yourself not as like someone who's like being trained to do something, but someone who can do like something incredible right away, I think is really important, you know?

而且，我希望自己当初能做一些更大胆、更了不起的事情，写下来并分享出去。

And, I think I wish I had done bigger, bolder things that I'd written and shared about.

我觉得有很多想法，我当时觉得，哇，我做了原创的工作，希望我能以某种形式分享出来，但也许不是那种能在互联网上留存下来的形式，你懂吗？

I think there were lots of ideas where I was like, wow, like, I think I had like, I thought I had done original work that I wish, maybe I'd even shared in some form, but maybe not like form that had like survived the internet, you know?

那并不是我的目标。

And it wasn't like a goal of mine.

所以我希望自己能更大胆一些，去完成并分享这些工作，但同时，也有很多东西可以向别人学习。

And so I wish I had like sort of been bolder and like, you know, done and shared some of this work, but at the same time, also, there is a lot to learn from people.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

而且我觉得，当你年轻的时候，你往往会陷入两个极端：要么不够大胆，要么学得不够多，要么就是太大胆了，不去了解别人已经做过什么，也不去搞清楚为什么这条路走不通。

And like, I think that, you, like, I think when you're young, you're like, you know, you tend to fall either you're not bold enough or you're not like, you don't like learn enough, you know, or you're like, you're not like, you don't like, you're too bold and you don't like figure out what people have done before and figure out why this is not working.

对。

Right.

这里有个平衡。

And there's this balance.

我觉得每个人失败的方式都不一样，但我想我可能没有充分利用那些导师和有很多经验的人。

I think, everyone has different failure modes, but I think like, I think I probably didn't take enough advantage of like, you know, mentors and people who had learned a lot.

结果我可能不得不重新学很多东西。

And I think I probably had to relearn a bunch of things as a result.

所以可能没有普遍适用的好建议，但这些都是进入这个行业时值得思考的事情。

So there's probably not universal good advice, but just things to think about as entering.

太棒了。

Awesome.

好的，非常感谢你抽出时间，Thariq。

Well, thanks so much for your time, Thariq.

真的很感谢。

Really appreciate it.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

谢谢，Ryan。

Thanks, Ryan.

聊得很开心。

It was fun.

嘿。

Hey.

感谢你观看这期播客。

Thank you for watching this podcast.

如果你喜欢这个节目，想看到它继续成长，请点赞或留言支持一下。

If you liked it and you wanna see the show grow, please support with a comment or a like.

另外，如果你有想让我邀请的嘉宾推荐，也请留言告诉我。

Also, if you have any recommendations for people you want me to bring on, please drop a comment.

像Barbara Liskoff、Mike Stonebreaker、Mark Brooker这些嘉宾，都是因为有人留言我才请来的。

Guests like Barbara Liskoff, Mike Stonebreaker, Mark Brooker, these were all people that I brought on because someone left a comment.

另外，除了播客，我还在打造一款我一直想要的人体工学键盘。

On another note, aside from the podcast, I'm working on building the ergonomic keyboard that I wish existed.

这是原型机的一瞥。

Here's a glance at the prototype.

这是一款分体式键盘，所以有两部分。

It's a split keyboard, so there's two sides.

这不是最终的外壳。

This isn't the case.

不过，是的，我们在Kickstarter上发起了众筹，上线八小时内就达成了目标。

But, yeah, we launched on Kickstarter, and we hit our goal within eight hours of launching.

如果你抢到了早期的那批货，真的非常感谢。

Really appreciate it if you were one of the people who grabbed one of the early units.

我们现在正在着手打造生产工具，这是个漫长的过程。

We're now working on the long journey of building the tooling now.

所以如果你还想入手一个，我在Kickstarter上留了后期支持通道。

And so if you still wanna pick one up, I've left the late pledges open on Kickstarter.

你可以在那里下单。

So you can grab one there.

我会把链接放在视频描述里。

I'll put a link in the description.

再次感谢你收看这期播客，我们下期见。

Thank you again for watching the podcast, and I'll see you in the next episode.