OpenAI与Meta资深工程师（IC9）：科技职业巅峰背后的心理学 | Philip Su

你知道吗？

You know what?

也许这最终就是我的最高级别了。

Like, maybe this ultimately is my final level.

这位是菲利普·苏。

This is Philip Su.

他在Facebook迅速晋升为杰出工程师或IC9，后来在OpenAI也是如此，我采访了他关于职业生涯巅峰期的心理状态。

He grew quickly to a Distinguished Engineer or IC9 at Facebook and then OpenAI, and I interviewed him about the psychology of peaking in your career.

当我达到七级时，我觉得这差不多已经接近我的能力极限了。

When I got to seven, you know, I felt like, this is pretty much nearing the boundary of my capability.

就像70岁的贝奥武夫被要求最后一次去屠龙一样。

It's like when Beowulf at age 70 is asked to slay the dragon one last time.

我内心有点希望自己还有那股劲儿。

Part of me wishes that I had that in me.

你觉得如果升职慢一点，你会更快乐吗？

Do you think that you'd be happier if you got promoted slower?

我觉得慢慢来对我更好。

I feel like titrating it out would have been better for me.

这是完整的一集。

Here's the full episode.

上次我们聊的时候，我几乎全在讲你达到杰出工程师级别的事。

Last time we talked, I focused almost entirely on you got to a distinguished engineering level.

你升得很快。

You grew very quickly.

你是怎么做到的？

How'd you do it?

这次我想更多聊聊当你达到职业天花板时会发生什么。

And this time I wanted to focus more on what happens when you hit your terminal level.

我的意思是，有个概念叫职业渐近线，就是说没有人能永远成长。

Or what I mean is there's this idea of a career asymptote, which is no one can grow forever.

到了某个点，你会达到一个再也上不去的级别，而你的职业生涯可能还有二三十年。

And at some point you're gonna get to a level where you can't go any further and you may have twenty, thirty years left in the career.

所以我想问你的是，当你升到IC9或者杰出工程师的时候，那已经高得离谱了，比高级工程师高四级，你当时的第一反应是什么？

So what I wanted to ask you is, when you got promoted to IC9 or Distinguished Engineer, which is crazy high, that's like four levels higher than a senior engineer, what was your immediate thought?

你有没有想过，我要升到IC10，那个级别存在吗？

Were you thinking, I want to go to IC10, does that exist?

还是说你当时想的完全是别的事情？

Or were you thinking something entirely different?

对，我觉得刚开始的时候，我真的没想过这个问题。

Yeah, I think when I started, I honestly didn't think about it.

在我职业生涯早期，我真的就是觉得，哦，你去争取晋升，每隔几年就能升一次。

When I was earlier in career, I really just assumed that, oh yeah, you go for a promotion and once every few years you get promoted.

我从来没想过这会有尽头，对吧？

And I never once thought there's gotta be an end to this, right?

就像每个人一样，总会有个尽头，对吧？

Like everybody, there's gotta be an end, right?

我觉得很多人可能都没想明白这一点，对吧？

And I think many people might not think that through, right?

所以对我来说，过了很多年我才明白，即使到了七级，我也觉得，哦，事情得慢下来了，因为越来越难。

And so for me, it took many years before I figured out, you know, even at seven, for instance, I felt like, oh, hey, things have got to slow down because, you know, it gets harder and harder.

你需要负责的范围变得更大了。

The amount of scope that you need becomes tougher.

能提供这种机会的职位其实越来越少，因为组织也需要有相应规模的工作。

The number of roles that offer the opportunity actually gets smaller because the organization needs to also need that scope of work.

比如在微软，他们重组的时候经常发现，你的组织最多只能有四个合伙人。

So for instance, at Microsoft, oftentimes when they reorganize, they figured out, hey, your organization should at most have four partners.

这其实只是预算方面的事情。

And that's just a budgetary sort of thing.

这是商业机会的问题。

That's a business opportunity thing.

所以你也需要机会。

So you need the opportunity as well.

所以当我升到九级的时候，我觉得再往上走不太现实。

And so when I was growing to nine, I think I just didn't think of going any further as realistic.

我在Facebook的时候，他们刚设立九级，对吧？

I was at Facebook when they first created level nine, right?

我记得有三个八级的人升到了九级。

And I remember that three level eights were promoted into nine.

那时候，那三个八级的人在公司的知名度很高，大家都公认他们是超级资深的技术人员。

And at that point, those three level eights were all universally loved and known throughout the company as obviously super senior technical people.

说实话，对我来说，那感觉遥不可及。想想那些人做的工作，我真的觉得我够不着。

And to me that felt unreachable, if I'm honest, when I think about those folks and the type of work they were doing, that really felt out of reach for me.

所以我觉得，等我到了八级或九级的时候，真的感觉快到顶了。

So I think definitely by the time I got to eight or nine, it really felt like, you know, the end is near.

嗯，很多人可能在职业生涯更早的时候就有这种感觉。

Well, a lot of people might feel that sooner in their career too.

是什么让你在员工级或高级员工级，也就是六级、七级、八级、九级，还能继续往上走？

What kept you pushing past the staff level or the senior staff level, you know, six, seven, eight, nine?

等我升到七级的时候，那是在微软待了十二年的时候，对吧？

When I got all the way through to seven, I think, which was at my twelve years at Microsoft, right?

我其实对级别晋升特别有野心。

I was really personally ambitious for level growth.

我觉得原因是在学校里，我特别喜欢考试和分数，因为我在考试和分数上很擅长。

And I think the reason was in schools, love tests, I love grades because I was good at grades and tests.

开始工作以后，就没有什么可以量化的东西了。

When I started professional work, there was nothing quantifiable.

不像每两个月有一次考试，能告诉你你做得不错。

Like it wasn't like once every two months you got a test that told you were doing well.

所以对我来说，晋升就成了少数几个可以量化的东西之一，对吧？

So for me, promotions became one of the very few quantifiable things, right?

就像，我赚多少钱？

It's sort of like, well, how much money do I make?

而且真正能用数字衡量的东西太少了，对吧？

And like, are so few things that are actually numbers, right?

所以对我来说，级别几乎就像一个成就分数。

So to me, a level was almost like an achievement number.

所以在我二十多岁到三十出头的时候，我特别想一路升到第七级。

And so throughout my 20s and my early 30s, I was really ambitious to get through all the way to level seven.

但我觉得从那时起，我意识到每升一级，工作的性质都会发生变化。

But I think starting there, I just realized, you know, the nature of the work changes with every additional level that you go into.

首先，我不确定自己会不会喜欢那种工作性质。

I wasn't sure that I would like the nature of work, first of all.

另外，我感觉事情变慢是正常的，因为每个人都有能力上限。

And then the other is I felt things slowing down rightfully because everybody has a talent limit.

所以对我来说，当我接近那个目标时，我开始觉得自己不再渴望进一步晋升了。

So for me, as I approach that, I just began to feel like, you know, I was no longer ambitious for the further growth.

所以我会说，我升到第八级和第九级，都不是我自己主动追求的。

So I would say my growth into eight and nine, neither of those were things that I was seeking myself.

那时候，我在做自己觉得有趣的工作，并努力做得更好，而不是像二十多岁时那样，主要想着怎么升到下一级。

I was by that point doing the work I found interesting and trying to do a better job of it, as opposed to, I would characterize my time, especially in my twenties, as mostly focused on how do I grow to the next level?

告诉我该怎么做，就是那种心态。

Tell me what I need to do, like that sort of thing.

当我从七级升到八级的时候，说实话，升到八级对我来说是个惊喜，因为那是我第一次知道Facebook还有级别这回事。

By the time I went from seven to eight, getting to eight was honestly a surprise for me at Facebook because getting to eight was the first time I learned that there were levels at Facebook.

我加入Facebook的时候，公司只有500个工程师，对吧？

When I joined Facebook, it was 500 engineers, right?

大家都专注于工作本身，不关心职业发展之类的事情。我觉得这在小型公司很正常，当你有重大使命时，你只想把任务完成。

Everybody was focused on the work itself and did not worry about careers and stuff, which I think is normal for small companies when you're on a big mission, you're just trying to get the mission done.

所以我甚至不知道自己有级别，直到我的老板——就是我的上司，对吧？

So I didn't even learn I had a level until my boss, who was boss, right?

他说，嘿，恭喜你。

Said, Hey, congratulations.

你被提升到八级了。

You've been promoted to level eight.

我当时就想，什么？

And I was like, What?

这里还有级别？

There's a level here?

这还挺神奇的。

Like, that's kind of amazing.

谢谢，对吧？

Thank you, right?

所以我觉得我不再关注级别本身了，我的晋升更像是工作成果带来的结果。

So I think I stopped focusing on the level itself and my promotions became more a consequence of the work that was being done.

在你职业生涯早期，听起来你好像经常缠着你的经理问，我怎么才能升职？

Early in your career, it sounds like you were constantly maybe harping your manager and you say, How can I get promoted?

下一步是什么？

What's the next thing?

后来你转变了，去做有意义的工作，晋升变成了副产品。

And later you transitioned into doing meaningful work and getting promoted as a byproduct.

是什么让你从那种心态转变到不再在乎晋升了呢？

What was it that changed in your mind where you went from that mentality to promos don't matter anymore?

对，我想有两件事让我印象深刻。

Yeah, I think there were two things that come to mind.

其中一个原因是，晋升本身带来的兴奋感已经不像年轻时那样了。

One was that the thrill of the promotion itself was no longer the same as when I was younger.

所以我觉得年轻的时候，因为我追求那些级别、那些可衡量的指标，每次晋升我都特别开心。

So I think when I was younger, because I sought after those grades, those measurable metrics, I very much felt great every time I got promoted.

那感觉特别好，对吧？

This was like wonderful, right?

我觉得随着我不断晋升，甚至到了七级，我开始有点——不是说不关心，但对我来说，晋升不再全是好事了。

I think as I got promoted, even into level seven, I started to honestly become a little bit, not ambivalent about it, but I guess it wasn't all roses to me anymore.

晋升的想法让我意识到，每次晋升也伴随着更高的期望，而那些期望我不再确定自己一定能达到。

The idea of getting promoted because I realized that each promotion also came with much higher expectations, expectations that I was no longer positive, that I was gonna deliver well.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

当我从四级升到五级时，我很自信我能胜任那份工作。

When I went from a four to a five, you know, I was confident that I could do this work.

就像，一切都会很顺利，对吧？

Like, it'll be great, right?

到了七级的时候，我觉得这差不多快到我的能力边界了。

When I got to seven, you know, I felt like, like this is pretty much nearing the boundary of my capability.

所以我就更坦然地说，嘿，如果他们一直让我待在这个级别，我依然很享受这份工作。

And so I felt a lot more comfortable saying like, hey, if they keep me here perpetually, it is still work I enjoy a lot.

我觉得第二个真正改变我的想法是，我也意识到了那个天花板，对吧？

I think the second thing that really changed for me is realizing also that asymptote, right?

我意识到，你知道吗，也许这最终就是我的最高级别了。

Realizing that, you know what, like maybe this ultimately is my final level.

很多年前，我有一位终身导师，他是我在微软最好的经理之一，他让我非常谦卑。

I was so humbled many years ago when I've had this lifelong mentor throughout much of my adult life that was one of my best managers at Microsoft.

就在最近几年，我想起有一次对话，他把我提升到了七级。

And I recently, just in the last few years, thought, you know, there was this one conversation where he promoted me into level seven.

我对他说，太好了，谢谢你。

And I said to him, that's great, thank you.

我们聊聊怎么升到八级吧。

Let's talk about how to get to eight.

他对我说的第一句话就是，菲利普，我们能不能至少用一次一对一的时间，来庆祝一下你已经在微软达到了这么高的级别？

And his first response to me was like, Philip, can we just take at least one one on one the fact that you've actually reached this tremendous level at Microsoft?

说实话，我当时觉得，不行，我们不能停下来，我得继续往前冲。

And I honestly felt like, no, like we can't, like I've got to keep going.

但多年以后我才意识到，他当时在行业里的经验可能比我多十五年。

But years later, I realized, you know, he himself was probably fifteen years more in industry than I was at the time.

而且回过头来看，他自己也就是个七级。

And he himself in hindsight had to be a level seven.

他在微软并不是合伙人。

He was not a partner at Microsoft.

所以我当时那么天真地冲过去，完全没考虑他的感受，也没想现实一点——他是我非常敬重的人，一直在给我指导，而他自己也只是七级。

And so for me to come across sort of so naively, like without considering for instance, his feelings or considering just realistically, this is a guy I look up to a lot and he's giving me mentoring advice all the time and he himself is level seven.

所以我那么拼命地往前推，我觉得真正让我谦卑的是意识到，那些级别上的人其实做了很多了不起的工作。

And so for me to like be pushing so hard, I think just the humility of realizing that, you know what, like people do tremendous work at those levels.

我应该感恩，如果我能跟上那些期望，那本身就已经是个很大的成就了。

And I should just appreciate that if I can even keep up with the expectations, that's already kind of a big accomplishment.

如果从我刚开始职业生涯的时候想，我的想法会是，继续往前冲。

If I were to think from when I was at my youngest, the beginning of the career, my thought would have been, keep pushing.

而你刚才说的那些想法，虽然很高尚，但我们会想，直接冲到八级吧。

And the thoughts that you just said are, they're noble, but let's go to eight.

对，这个人虽然到了那个级别，但我还想要更多，我还想要更多。

Yes, this person's that level, but I want more, I want more.

是什么让你那种“我还想要更多”的冲动，哪怕不现实，也慢慢平静下来的？

What calmed the, I guess the gut crazy energy of, I want more, even if it's not realistic?

说实话，我觉得有一部分原因可能就是年龄。

I think some of it might be as simple as age, to be honest.

而且我觉得社会本来就是这么运作的。

And I think society is designed to work this way.

比如说，传统上，年轻人去打仗，对吧。

Like, young people go to war, right, traditionally.

而且，就是需要有这种野心，比如“我要做出伟大的成就”。

And, like, there needs to be, like, this ambition of, like, I'm going to build great things.

我要做一番大事业。

I'm gonna do great things.

我觉得年轻人的那股劲儿特别有力量。

I think that energy from the young is super powerful.

我当然不是想说，咱们要把这些都压下去。

And I definitely don't wanna sit here and say, let's quell all of that.

比如，别让一个23岁刚入职的人觉得，做到E3就满足了。

Like, let's make sure when a person is 23 and they start work, they're like, you know, like E3 is fine.

所以我确实希望大家保持那种雄心。

So I definitely want people to have that ambition.

我觉得有一部分可能是自然衰老的过程，但至少对我自己来说，很大一部分是工作本身性质的变化。

I think maybe some of it is the natural aging process, but I do think at least for myself, a lot of it was the shifting nature of the job itself.

对我来说，直到IC6级别的工作，感觉还是在做同样的事情，只是规模更大，你懂吗？

I would say for me up until, let's say an IC6 level of work, it just felt like doing the same stuff, but grander, if that makes sense.

比如你还是在整天写代码。

Like you're still coding all day.

你主要跟工程师和产品经理开会，有时候也跟设计师，但本质上还是做同样的事，只是规模大得多。

You're like meeting with engineers primarily and product managers, sometimes designers, but it's just about doing like at a much higher amplitude.

我现在要做更大的重构。

You know, I'm now gonna like do much bigger refactors.

我还要参与更长期的项目，比如，我们是不是该做个新服务，做X功能。

I'm gonna like participate in longer range projects like, oh, we should like do this new service that does X.

但我觉得再往上走，性质就真的变了，光靠做得更多更好通常不是晋升的途径。

But I think beyond that, the nature really changes to where like just doing more better is typically not how people get there.

你会发现极少数人确实能做得更多更好，但他们天生就是那种写代码特别快或者特别有天赋的人。

You will find very rare cases, for instance, where people can do more better, but they are like preternaturally like gifted for super fast coding or whatever.

我绝对不是那种人，因为我更像一个通才。

I was definitely not that person because I was much more a generalist.

所以对通才来说，要升到六级以上，工作性质确实会变，比如直接写代码少了，甚至直接做架构也少了，但更多的是像团队方向这样的工作。

And so for a generalist going beyond six, I think it does change the nature of the work such that you're doing maybe less direct coding, for instance, maybe even less direct architecture stuff, but much more things like team direction.

考虑到行业的发展趋势，现在这个产品还该不该做？

Is this even the right product to be building right now, given where the industry is moving?

也许是想去影响另一个正在冲突中的组织，对吧？

Maybe trying to influence even another organization that's on a collision path, right?

比如试图找到一个对双方都有利的办法，让两边都能落地。

Like maybe trying to find a mutually useful way to land both sides.

所以我觉得，随着你级别越来越高，实际上你肯定会有更多的会议，不管你是个人贡献者还是经理，这就是现实。

So I think that also, know, take pragmatically as you go up higher in levels, it's almost definitely true that you will have more meetings just period, whether you're an IC, whether you're a manager, that's just what it is.

而且你知道很多人，比如总监，每个小时都在开会，有一半的时间是双重预订的。

And you know plenty of people for whom, like directors, as an example, every single hour's meetings and half of the hours are double booked.

所以他们只是在选择去参加哪一个会议，对吧？

And so they're just choosing which one to go to for that, right?

这通常就是工作性质变化的一个小例子。

That's typically how, like one small example of how the nature of the work changes.

所以对我来说，随着工作性质的变化，我对如果继续升职，工作会怎么继续变化就不那么热衷了。

And so for me, as the nature of work changed, you know, I was less enthused about, you know, how it might continue to change if I continued getting higher level.

你提到你主动要求从IC9降级到IC7，或者从杰出工程师降到高级员工工程师。

You mentioned that you sought out a demotion from IC9 to IC7 or Distinguished to Senior Staff.

你有没有想过跟你的经理说，我不想升到IC7以上？

Did you ever consider saying to your manager, I don't want to get promoted past IC7?

从七级升到八级，其实没想过，因为那时候我还不知道有这些级别。

From going to seven to eight, not really because I didn't know levels had existed at that point.

所以那次晋升有点像意外，对吧？

So like that promotion was sort of like surprise, right?

但说实话，我觉得Facebook那时候还很小，即使是在当时。

But I think if I'm honest, Facebook was also so small even back then.

我在Facebook大概一年就被升到八级了。

I was promoted into eight maybe one year at Facebook.

我在微软当七级大概当了三年。

I was a seven at Microsoft for probably three years.

所以你想，大概四年吧，对吧？

So you figure like, let's say four years, right?

在Facebook待了一年，我就升到八级了。

One year into Facebook, I get promoted to eight.

那时候Facebook全球大概也就800个工程师吧。

Facebook was still, I wanna say back then, 800 engineers globally.

所以公司规模小得多。

So so the company was much smaller.

我觉得公司到了那个规模，工作里就不太涉及那么多管理层面的东西了。

And I think when a company is that size, I think the work doesn't include as much meta work.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

就是工作基本上就是干活本身。

Like the work is mostly the work.

所以你就直接写代码，做实际的事情，对吧？

So you're like doing the code, you're doing the actual, right?

但我觉得我的经历，哪怕是很多年后回到Facebook西雅图的时候，我刚加入时，我是第二个进来的。

Whereas I would say my experience, even on Facebook many years later, when I came back to Facebook Seattle, when I joined, I was the second person who joined, right?

所以办公室就四张桌子。

So the office was four desks.

我去伦敦待了五年，回来的时候，办公室已经有两千多人了。

When I went to London for five years and I came back, the office was more than 2,000 people.

这种规模真的让人震惊，当一个组织有几万人的时候，典型的资深职位更多的是在协调人，我想，还有更多，怎么说呢，更少技术性的工作。

And so just like that mind blowing size means that the typical senior job when an organization is tens of thousands of people is a lot more people wrangling, I guess, and a lot more, I don't know, a lot less technical.

我觉得我整个职业生涯中遇到的一个困难是，很多高级职位，包括一个所谓的IC6，就是纯写代码的，其实很大程度上取决于他们和别人合作得怎么样。

I think one of the struggles I've had throughout my career is so many higher level jobs, including a solid IC6 quote unquote, just coding, has to do with how well they work with others.

而在某些环境里，我就是不太擅长像其他人那样和别人合作。

And I, in some environments, just don't work very well with people like I and others do.

客观地说，当我领导Facebook伦敦办公室的时候，我做得很好。

I would say objectively when I was leading the Facebook London site, I was good at the job.

那是一个非常注重人际关系的职位，但对我来说，那是人际交往中让人开心的部分。

It was a very people focused job, but it was for me, the happy parts of people.

比如欢迎新同事，或者像，嘿，我们要和Menlo Park合作做这个项目之类的。

Like, welcome to the team, or like, hey, we're gonna like do this collaboration with Menlo Park and all this stuff.

我觉得在大公司里还有另一种人际相关的事情，就是很多人可能称之为政治，但很多工作其实和软件交付无关，而是因为当三个或更多人在一个地方时，就会有政治。

I think there's another type of people oriented thing that happens at large companies, which is a lot of what people might call politics, but a lot of sort of work that has nothing to do with the actual software deliverable, but has everything to do with the fact that when three or more people are somewhere, there's politics.

而且就是处理人际关系这种事，比如应对不开心的人，我是非常不擅长的。

And like just figuring out the people thing, dealing with unhappy people, for instance, is something I'm very bad at.

给别人提供建设性的反馈，我也挺不擅长的。

Giving people constructive feedback is something that I am fairly bad at.

所以那些级别更高的职位，就算是一个只管好自己的IC7，通常也需要定期给其他工程师提供很有帮助的反馈。

And so more jobs at those levels just require even an IC7 minding his own business is probably regularly supposed to be giving pretty helpful feedback to other engineers.

他们不是那些人的经理，但你仍然应该帮助周围的人进步。

You know, they're not their managers, but still you should be improving those around you.

而我在那方面就差很多了。

And I am much less good at that.

当你主动要求从IC9降到IC7的时候，我在想，对于那些认为成功标准就是级别不断上升的人来说，接受降级、放弃所谓的“辛苦努力”会非常困难。

When you sought out the demotion from IC9 to IC7, I'm just thinking for someone who's thinking that the success criteria is going up in levels, it would be very difficult to accept going down from, kind of like undoing all that hard work, quote unquote.

那个过程是怎样的？

What was that process like?

我觉得挺难的。

I think it was hard.

我记得是威尔·史密斯还是哪个名人说过，出名的那一刻特别爽。

I think it was Will Smith or someone else famous said like, getting famous is amazing.

但一直出名就有点复杂了。

Being famous is a mixed bag.

然后过气的时候特别难受，对吧？

And then getting not famous is horrible, right?

我觉得这是人的本性，不只是出名，任何事情都一样，对吧？

And I think that's human nature, not just about fame, but about anything, right?

比如你在某个领域慢慢进步，假设你刚开始学修车，对吧？

When we are growing in anything, like let's suppose you first get into auto repair, right?

第一次做换机油以外的大活儿，就会觉得特别有成就感，对吧？

The first big job you do beyond an oil change feels like success, right?

后来你拆过发动机，换过离合器，对吧？

Eventually you've like removed an engine, you've like done clutches, right?

到了我这个年纪，我最近真的开始把修车工具送人了，因为我发现自己干这个越来越少了，身体上也不太能干了。

And at some point, like my age right now, I literally just started giving away some of my auto repair gear because I'm realizing, you know, I'm not doing this as much, like physically, I'm not as capable of doing it.

这让我有点难过。

And that feels a little bit sad.

我觉得我的软件职业生涯也是这样，上升的时候总是感觉很好，对吧？

And I think the same thing happened to me in my software career, which is on the way rising up, it always felt great, right?

除了期望越来越高，还有随之而来的担忧。

Other than the rising expectations and the worries around that.

但总的来说，感觉就是，哦，我在进步。

But the general thing felt like, oh, I'm progressing.

站在顶端其实是喜忧参半的。

Being at the top was a mixed bag.

有一些很棒的事情。

You know, there were some amazing things.

也有一些非常艰难的事情。

There were some very hard things.

然后我觉得走下坡路的时候，有几件事挺难的。

And then I think coming down, I feel like there were a few things that were hard about it.

一个是，我觉得我知道自己还能做更多，因为我以前做过更多。

One was that I think I knew I could do more, you know, because I had done more before.

但有一部分是那种疲惫感，一直以那种速度奔跑，还有那种像索伦之眼一样，到处巡视，寻找目标的感觉，对吧？

But part of it was the feeling of being exhausted running at that pace and always having the eye of Sauron, like roving the land, looking for people, right?

而且我觉得职位越高，你越能时刻感受到那种压力。

And I think the higher level you are, the more that you feel that intensity all the time.

这也很合理，毕竟你拿的是高薪。

And rightfully so, like you're getting paid the big bucks.

所以公司有权利不断质疑你是否值得这份薪水。

And so it's right for a company to say, know, constantly question whether or not they are getting their value out of you.

所以我觉得这很公平，但我确实感受到了那种挣扎。

So I think it's only fair, but I felt that struggle.

我觉得降级到七级对我来说另一个困难是，当我看到以前在我下面的人升到我上面，甚至超过那个级别时，那真的很难受。

And I think the other thing that was hard for me about getting demoted down to seven was more that feeling that as I saw other people who used to be below me rise above me beyond that level, That was very difficult.

我并不嫉妒他们的成功。

I don't begrudge them their success.

所以我完全不是说，我宁愿出去确保这个人永远不成功。

So I'm not at all saying like, I'd rather go out there and make sure this person never succeeds.

我的意思更多是，我觉得有点惆怅，我想这是正确的词，就是，别人做得更好我并没有被打击，但我确实有点觉得，我曾经也能做那份工作。

What I mean is more that I felt wistful, I guess is the right word, which is like, I was not crushed that someone else was doing better, but I did feel a little bit like, I once could do that work.

而且我有点想知道，我还能不能再做到，对吧？

And part of me wonders if I could again, right?

就像贝奥武夫70岁时被要求最后一次去杀龙，他走出老房子，然后他最后一次杀了那条龙。

It's like when Beowulf at age 70 is asked to like slay the dragon one last time, like he gets out of his old house and he's like, and he slays the dragon one last time.

我有点希望自己也有那种劲头。

Part of me wishes that I had that in me.

就是，等我70岁的时候，还能被召唤去做这件事，对吧？

That like, when I'm 70, I can be called upon one last time to do this thing, right?

而且我能拿出那个水平的表现。

And I'm able to deliver at that level.

但我知道，也许那对我来说不是这样，对吧？

But I know that maybe that's not it for me, right?

你提到你以前能做到，后来做不到了。

You mentioned that you used to be able to do it and then you couldn't.

那是什么变化让你很难再达到那个水平呢？

Well, what changed that made it hard to perform at that level?

我觉得如果要把原因分几类的话，一个是我的环境变了。

I think if I were to bucket it into a few categories, one is my environment changed.

随着Facebook这家公司不断壮大，对吧？

So as Facebook, the company grew, right?

我觉得在比较大的公司里，高级个人贡献者如果成为领域专家，会表现得好很多。

Senior ICs do a lot better, I think, in larger companies if they are domain experts.

比如说，你特别擅长SQL优化，对吧？

So you're great at, let's say, SQL optimization, right?

然后你帮SQL迁移到SSD上，还把它搬到云端。

And like you're helping SQL move on to SSD and you're moving SQL into the cloud.

那种个人贡献者在大公司里最吃香。

That sort of IC does best in a large company.

在小公司里，通才型的人最吃香。

In a tiny company, a generalist does best.

因为就像我刚开始做视频通话的时候，我还负责跟Skype谈合同，跟第三方测试公司谈，各种事情都管。

Because like when I first started on video calling, I also negotiated like the contracts with Skype, with a third party tester, like with all sorts of things.

所以我一边谈合同，一边干各种乱七八糟的事，同时还要写代码。

So I'm like negotiating contracts, I'm like doing crazy things, but I'm also coding the thing.

然后等新闻稿发出去的时候，我还要去跟媒体打交道。

And then when the press release goes out, I'm talking to the press.

我真的就是直接去见媒体，聊视频通话这个功能，你知道吗？

So I'm literally meeting the press about the video calling feature, right?

这就是通才最擅长的事情。

That is what a generalist excels at.

我之所以能做到这些，就是因为当时Facebook还很小。

And I could only do that because Facebook was small.

等我回到Facebook西雅图的时候，西雅图办公室就已经有两千多人了，整个公司大概有三万人吧，我也记不太清了。

By the time I came back to Facebook Seattle and the Seattle office itself was 2,000 plus people and the company was maybe, I don't know, 30,000 people.

你不可能派我去跟微软谈合同的。

There's no way you would send me out to negotiate a contract with Microsoft.

那也太离谱了。

That would be ridiculous.

所以对我来说，作为一个通才，我的环境变了，变成专才更吃香了。

And so for me as a generalist, my environment shifted to where specialists would survive better.

而作为通才，说实话，我真的没那么有用了。

And for me as a generalist, I was honestly just not as useful.

比如有整整六个月，我所在的团队，所有工程师的唯一任务就是修那个内部工具上的bug。

Like for one whole six month period, the team that I was on, the only mission for the ICs for that entire six months was fix the bugs on this internal tool.

所以我花了六个月修bug，这我倒不介意，但我并不是特别擅长这个，对吧？

So I spent six months fixing the bugs, which I'm happy to do, but I am not especially skilled at that, right?

所以我觉得一个变化就是我的环境变了。

And so I think one thing was my environment change.

另一个变化是，我确实有点厌倦了那种总是压力山大、要努力达到期望的感觉，你懂吗？

I think the other thing that changed for me was I did tire a little bit of feeling like there was always so much pressure just to meet expectations, if that makes sense.

所以直到IC6，我都没感觉到那种被盯上的压力。

So up until I would say IC6, I never felt the eye of Sauron.

在我的职业生涯中，我从来没有觉得，哎呀，如果我现在稍微表现差一点，他们可能会炒了我，对吧？

Like I was never at any point in my career feeling like, oh, if I just fall a little below right now, maybe they're gonna can me, right?

但我觉得到了七级以后，时不时会有那种感觉，哎呀，这个半年的表现，我也不知道，感觉不太妙。

But I think regularly at seven and beyond, once in a while, would feel like, oh, like I feel like my own performance this half, I don't know, like things aren't looking great.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

而且我觉得，某种程度上，当我非常有野心的时候，成为团队里最慢的那个，但后来追上并崛起，这让我很兴奋。

And I think in a way, it's like when I was super ambitious, being like the slowest member of a team, but catching up and rising was exciting to me.

随着我在职业生涯中取得更多成就，找到了自己的舒适区，我不再喜欢成为团队里最慢的那个，或者感觉可能因为表现不达标而要被谈话。

As I accomplished more in my career and I felt my happy places, I no longer like the feeling of being slowest on a team or feeling like I was potentially going to have a talking to at some point because I wasn't performing on expectations.

所以我觉得那种压力也是我不再享受的。

So I think that sort of pressure also was something that I no longer enjoyed.

但实际上，那种被盯上的压力是你自己想象出来的，而不是真实的，因为你从七级升到八级，再从八级升到九级，对吧？

In reality, that eye of Sauron though was in your head rather than reality, given that you got promoted from seven to eight and eight to nine, right?

对，可能有一部分是冒名顶替综合征，但我觉得其实很多是诚实地审视自己和现实。

Yes, maybe some of it is imposter syndrome, but I think a lot of it is actually just an honest look at myself and reality.

所以当我是IC4，想升到IC5的时候，对吧？

So when I was an IC4 looking to go to IC5, right?

有很多IC5的工作，我觉得我完全能做。

There were plenty of IC5s where I felt like, I could totally do that work.

就是，给我两年时间，我就能做得一样好，对吧？

Like, just give me two years and I'll be just as good, right?

到了IC7，我看到很多IC7，说实话，如果你把我放到那个人的团队里，我干不了那活儿。

At IC7, I could see many IC7s where I'm like, honestly, if you put me on that guy's team, I could not do that work.

对吧？

Like, right?

我知道我干不了。

Like, I know I can't.

所以我觉得我对自己能力的现实评估，可能更接近实际情况。

And so I think my realistic appraisal of my own abilities was I think more accurate to what they actually were.

而且，如果顺着你的话题稍微延伸一下，可能还有一部分原因是，随着你越来越资深，不仅期望值更高，而且真正完全适合你的职位数量其实少得多。

And also maybe some of it, you know, if I riff on your theme a little bit, maybe some of it also is that as you get more and more senior, not only are the expectations higher, but the number of business roles where you are the perfect guy for the role actually is far, far less.

所以当你还是IC6的时候，几乎任何团队都会欢迎你。

So when you're an IC6, almost any team would welcome one.

就像，太好了，直接拿起键盘，咱们就开始干吧。

It's like, great, like just pick up a keyboard and like, we'll get going.

但我觉得一旦你到了某个级别，就会变成，嗯，我们需要一个擅长市场的人。

But I think once you get to a certain level, it's like, well, we need someone who's good at like, we need someone who's good at marketing.

然后这个人还得懂点技术，或者，职位的要求变得非常具体。

And then this person has to also be somewhat technical or like the shapes become very specific.

而且我觉得，意识到自己的条件不适合很多很多职位，也让我现实地感觉到，也许这里不是适合我的长期发展的地方。

And I think that just realizing that my shape wasn't right for many, many roles also made me realistically feel like maybe this isn't the right long term place for me.

听起来在你的职业生涯中，你付出了非常多。

It sounds like over the course of your career, you worked an extraordinary amount.

你上次提到，你带睡袋去上班，对吧？

I mean, you mentioned last time we talked that you bring a sleeping bag to work, you know?

我觉得在职业生涯早期，这样拼命是很合理的，因为你当时干劲十足，一心想着晋升。

And I think early in your career, it makes a lot of sense because you were so gung ho and you're pursuing the promos.

但后来你在Facebook的时候，你并没有刻意追求晋升，晋升是因为你工作出色自然而来的，那当时你那么拼命工作，动力是什么呢？

But then when you were at Facebook and you weren't pursuing the promos, you're just getting them because you were doing awesome work, what was your motivation to work so crazy hours at that time?

我职业生涯中最拼命的一段时期，就是推出Facebook视频通话第一个版本的时候。

One of the most intense work periods of my life was shipping the first version of Facebook video calling.

我当时和Denise、Thiago，可能还有一两个其他人，还有DJ一起合作。

You know, I had worked with Denise, with Thiago, with maybe one or two other with DJ.

第一个版本上线的时候，我在Menlo Park大概待了六个星期，那段时间我真的是起床就直接去工作，一直干到开车回公寓睡觉。

That first version, when we went out, I think I went about six weeks down in Menlo Park where I literally got up out of bed, went in straight to work and worked all the way until I drove back to the apartment and went to sleep.

我整天都在吃垃圾食品。

I was eating junk food the whole day.

就是太阳薯片之类的。

It was like sun chips and like whatever.

但尽管如此，那六个星期我还是瘦了十磅。

But despite that, I lost 10 pounds in those six weeks.

天哪。

Oh my god.

这说明脑力工作有多消耗人，但我当时完全不知道还有这种程度。

It goes to show like how intense like brain related work can be, But I had a, no idea there were levels.

所以做这份工作的时候，我脑子里根本没想过升职。

So obviously a promotion was nowhere on my mind when I was doing this work.

但我告诉你，那是我人生中最开心的时期之一，因为那种直接影响到真实用户的感觉太刺激了，毕竟那时候Facebook还很小。

But I tell you, it was one of the most fun periods of my life because it felt so thrilling that I was directly impacting like real users because Facebook was so tiny back then.

比如，你能立刻看到用户报错。

Like, you could see the users having errors right away.

我每天都在修错误。

I was patching errors every day.

感觉就像在完成使命一样。

Like, it felt like missional.

感觉这是第一次人们不用安装任何软件就能轻松进行视频通话。

It felt like this was the first time video calling was gonna be easy for people without installing any software.

那时候WebRTC还挺新的。

WebRTC was relatively new back then.

我们第一版发布的时候还得装一些软件。

We still had to get some software with the first version out.

所以我当时有很强的使命感，而且我们团队就三个人，我也觉得，哇，我得对得起其他同样拼命往前推的伙伴。

And so I felt like the strong sense of mission and being on a tiny team of like three people also felt like, wow, I owe it to the other folks too, who are working equally hard to like pull forward.

所以我觉得那对我来说还是很有意义的，但不再是为了升职，而是我真心相信自己在做的事。

So I think that was still in it for me, but no longer based on promotions as a thing, but more like I believed in what I was doing.

而且我能直接接触到用户，看到他们因为我的修复而受益。

And I felt that direct customer contact with people I could actually see getting impacted positively by the fixes.

回顾你职业生涯中加班那么多小时，你觉得值得吗？你会推荐别人也这样做吗？

When you look back on a career of working so many hours, would you say that it's worth it and would you recommend it to others?

我觉得现在成功人士和有钱人都流行劝别人不要那么拼。

I think it's become popular for successful people to tell people not to push us hard and for wealthy people to tell people to not push us hard.

那些事业还没到后期或者没那么有钱的人自然会觉得，你们当然说得轻松。

And it's understandable that people who aren't as late in their career or aren't as wealthy would say, well, it's easy for you to say that.

因为你自己已经经历过那些了，就像有个人曾经跟我说，你说得轻松，因为你已经走过来了，什么都见识过了。

Because you've already gotten the, like I once had a guy say to me like, well, it's easy for you to say that because you've already been there, done that.

我觉得在某种程度上，但我也认为有些智慧只有亲身经历过才能获得。

And I think at some level, But I also think that there is sometimes wisdom that can only be gotten when you live a certain thing yourself.

这就是为什么当有人告诉你金钱买不到幸福时，没人会相信，对吧？

This is why when someone tells you money can't buy happiness, nobody believes it, right?

每个人都觉得自己会是那个例外。

Everybody thinks they'll be the one exception.

我觉得关键在于，你得先过过某种生活，才能真正客观地判断它到底好不好。

And I think the thing is like, you have to have lived a certain life before to really objectively be able to say whether it's better or not.

对我来说，考虑到我的性格，那些需要广泛影响力、压力很大的高层职位，长期来看并不适合我，就我个人性格而言。

And I think for me, given my personality, I think the really much higher level roles that require broad impact and feel like a lot of pressure for me, people wise, just for my own personality over time is not the right thing.

但与此同时，我也会说，我不想挑三拣四，比如我现在能自由地开发自己的软件，这本身就是一种恩赐。

But I would at the same time say, well, I don't wanna look at gift horse in the mouth like the freedom for me to, for instance, work on my own software right now.

这完全是因为我之前的职业生涯让我赚够了钱，存下了足够的积蓄，才能花两年时间写自己的软件。

It only comes from having had a career where I got paid enough that I could save enough money that I can go two years writing my own software.

我也不想不识好歹，说‘哎呀，我当初真不该那样做’这种话。

And I don't wanna look that in the mouth and say like, oh no, like I totally shouldn't have done that.

那完全不是事实。

Like, that's not true at all.

我觉得对我来说，我希望年轻的时候能更清楚地意识到自己做的取舍，比如‘嘿，如果我现在拼命努力，那等我50岁的时候就能自由地花两年时间做自己的软件了’。

Like, I think what it is for me is I would have appreciated when I was younger being more cognizant of the trade offs that I was making, you know, like, hey, if I like dig in really hard right now and I really work hard, then this will buy me the freedom when I'm 50 to work two years on my own software.

我真希望我当时知道这就是取舍。

Like, I wish I knew that was the trade off.

而我觉得当时我只是盲目地往前冲，想着‘嘿，我就是有野心’。

Whereas I think at the time I was just blindly pushing forward of like, Hey, like, I'm just ambitious.

我想做所有这些事情。

I want to do all this stuff.

在你的职业生涯和整个人生中，你一定指导过很多人。

And in your career and your life in general, you must have mentored so many people.

就像你说的，如果你给别人建议，但他们不亲身经历就无法真正接受，那所有建议是不是都没用了？

And like you said, if you give someone advice but they can't really take it until they actually experience it, Is all advice useless then?

那还有什么意义呢？

Like, what's the point?

我觉得还是有意义的，因为别人给你建议你却忽略它，和你根本不知道有这条建议，这两者之间差别很大。

I think there is still a point, which is there's a massive difference between you ignoring advice and you not knowing the advice was even there.

我觉得区别在于两点。

And I think the difference is two things.

第一点是，当你脑子里有这条建议，但你选择忽略它的时候。

One is when you have the advice in the back of your head, but you're ignoring it.

当最终后果出现时，它反而会加深你对这条建议的理解，而且你更可能立刻采取行动，因为你会觉得这话说得太对了，对吧？

When eventually some consequence comes about, it actually will reinforce for you why the advice was given and you're much more likely to take more immediate action because it rings true, right?

所以当有人告诉你金钱买不来幸福，然后假设一块两百万美元的砖头砸到你额头上，对吧？

And so when someone tells you money won't buy happiness, and let's say a brick of $2,000,000 falls on your forehead, right?

然后你去买了点东西，结果发现那并不能让你开心。

And then you go out and you buy something and you realize it's not a happy thing.

比如我当初觉得自己财务上有了保障时，我给自己买的一件奢侈的东西，就是一支五十美元的钢笔。

Like one of the things that I splurged on for myself when I felt like I have financial security is I bought a $50 pen.

对吧？

Okay?

因为《纽约杂志》说这是他们评测的100支笔里最好的一支。

Because the New York magazine said this is the best pen out of the 100 they reviewed.

结果就是一支用铝加工出来的普通笔。

And it was this barren fake pen out of machined aluminum or something.

我买了那支笔，用了一段时间后发现，这其实不是我喜欢的笔。

And I bought that pen and after using it a while, I realized this is not my favorite pen.

像百乐G2或者类似的笔，比这个好用多了，而且才一块五。

Like there's a G2 Pilot or whatever that's like much better than this and it's like a buck 50.

直到我买了那支铝制的笔，我才意识到，如果笔身是正圆的，不管放在什么表面上，它都会滚下去。

It took me buying that aluminum milled pen before I'm like, actually, if you mill a pen exactly round, no matter what surface you put it on, it's about to roll off.

而且因为表面光滑，握起来很费劲。

And like, it's like hard to grip onto because it's slippery.

得经历了才知道。

It takes getting there.

所以我觉得建议的一部分是，当你终于买了那支笔，结果对它失望的时候，你会意识到，嘿，人们以前告诉过我可能会发生这种事，对吧？

So I think part of the advice is when you finally do buy that pen and you're disappointed by it, you realize, Hey, people used to tell me that this thing might happen, right?

所以我觉得这种认识是有帮助的。

So I think that recognition is helpful.

不过我觉得另一件事是，即使你没有立刻采纳别人的建议，至少对我来说，当我下次面临一个可能适用那个建议的决定时，它会让我更认真地思考一下。

I think the other thing, however, is even if you don't take someone's advice right away, I do think, at least for me, when I next face a decision where that advice might apply, it makes me think a little more hard about it.

比如，我可能不会采纳那个建议，但我至少会想，好几个聪明人都跟我说过这件事。

You know, like, I may not take the advice, but I'll at least think, you know, several very smart people have told me, you know, this thing.

也许他们这么说是有原因的。

Maybe there's a reason that they say that.

OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor 和 Vercel 都在用这个产品来提升他们的工作效率。

OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, and Vercel all use this product to make their lives better.

它解决的问题是，当你在构建 SaaS 或 AI 产品，并且想卖给其他公司时，你需要满足各种要求。

And the problem it solves is when you're building SaaS or an AI product and you wanna sell to other companies, there's all these requirements you need to meet.

比如 SSO、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志等等。

There's SSO, there's SCIM, there's RBAC, there's audit logs.

这些都是需要花时间集成的东西，但不是你应用的主要重点。

These are all things that take time to integrate but aren't the main focus of your app.

WorkOS 是一个 API 层，让你只需几行代码就能满足所有这些要求。

WorkOS is an API layer that lets you meet all of these requirements in just a few lines of code.

比如说你有一个新的 SaaS 产品，想卖给其他公司，WorkOS 会帮你解决所有这些关键的功能缺口。

So let's say you have a new SaaS product and you wanna sell to other companies, WorkOS will solve all of these critical feature gaps for you.

你可以去 workos.com 看看，了解更多并开始使用。

You can check them out at workos.com to learn more and get started.

我很感谢他们支持我的工作并赞助这个播客。

And I appreciate them for supporting my work and sponsoring this podcast.

Atlassian 的 Jira 现在不只是用来跟踪工作了。

Jira by Atlassian isn't just for tracking work anymore.

现在你可以选择你喜欢的 AI 代理来分配任务，它们会访问 Jira 中已有的丰富上下文。

Now you can pick your favorite AI agent to assign tasks to, and they'll get access to the rich context that's already in Jira.

当代理完成后，它会生成一个拉取请求。

When the agent is done, it surfaces a pull request.

这样你就可以在一个地方用你最喜欢的智能体完成更多事情。

That way you can get more done with your favorite agents all in one place.

更多信息请访问 jira.dev。

Learn more at jira.dev.

就是 jira.dev。

That's jira.dev.

感谢他们赞助本期播客，我们回到正题。

Appreciate them for sponsoring the podcast, and back to the show.

显然，在职业生涯中，某个阶段激励人们的是经济收入。

Obviously, of career and what motivates people at some point is the financial earnings.

我很想探讨一下在这些客观目标之后的动力问题，因为比如，有一个 subreddit 和关于财务独立的运动等等。

I'm curious to explore the topic of the motivation after those more objective things, because for instance, there's this subreddit and this movement on financial independence and all of that.

我记得我以前看那个 subreddit 的时候，经常有人发帖说：嘿，我终于做到了。

And I remember when I used to look at that subreddit, there would be a recurring post of someone saying, Hey, I finally did it.

我终于达到了我的退休目标，但我很沮丧，或者我不知道该做什么，因为他们长期处于赚钱的跑步机上，他们的幸福感已经和这个绑定了。

I finally hit my retirement number and I'm depressed, or I don't know what to do because they've been on this money making hamster wheel for such a long time that their happiness was kind of tied to that.