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欢迎回到PolicyViz播客。
Welcome back to the PolicyViz Podcast.
我是你们的主持人约翰·施瓦比什。
I'm your host, John Schwabish.
大家新年快乐。
Happy New Year, everybody.
希望你们一切都好。
Hope you're well.
希望你们的2026年有一个美好的开端。
Hope your 2026 is off to a great start.
希望你们在2025年底能有一些时间与朋友和家人休息放松，我也希望2026年对我们所有人来说都是更美好的一年。
Hope you got a little time to rest and relax with your friends and family at the end of 2025, and I'm hoping 2026 is a better year for all of us.
还有什么比新的一集播客更能开启新的一年呢？
And what better way to start the new year than a new podcast episode.
非常高兴邀请到比尔·兰金做客本期节目，他是新书《激进制图学：改变地图如何改变世界》的作者。
Very excited to have join me on the show, Bill Rankin, author of the new book, Radical Cartography, How Changing Our Maps Can Change the World.
我得说，这本书已经跃升为我心目中数据可视化领域所有地图类书籍的前三名。
I gotta tell you, this book has moved right up into my top three of all time mapping books for data visualization.
这本书并不是给制图师或制图学专业人士看的，那是完全不同的领域。
Not for cartographers or cartography, it's a different field.
但对于数据可视化从业者来说，如果你对如何更好地处理地理数据、如何制作地图感兴趣，那么在我看来，你现在需要三本书。
But for data viz folks, if you are interested in improving how you work with geographic data, how you create maps, my view now is that you need three books.
肯尼斯·菲尔德的《制图学》、艾伦·卡罗尔的《用数据讲故事》，现在我要加上比尔·兰金的《激进制图学》。
Kenneth Fields book cartography, Alan Carroll's book telling stories with data, and now I'm adding Bill Rankin's book radical cartography.
如果你拥有这三本书，我相信你一定会成为一个更出色的制图者和数据可视化叙事者。
If you have those three books, I think you are going to be a much better map creator and data visualization storyteller.
所以我非常兴奋能邀请比尔来节目中讨论他的书、他的制图方法、不同的工具、静态地图与动态地图之间的差异，以及他对‘激进制图学’这一说法的理解和含义——全是精彩内容。
So I was very excited to be able to have Bill on the show to talk about his book, his approach to mapping, different tools, differences between static maps and animated maps, how he thinks about this phrase radical cartography and what it means, all good stuff.
我们的对话非常长，也非常精彩。
We have a really long great conversation.
我相信你会喜欢这一年的第一期节目。
I think you're gonna love this first episode of the new year.
当然了，如果我不请你帮个小忙，那就不像做播客了，毕竟我们做播客就是这样。
Now, of course, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you for a quick favor because it is a podcast.
我们做播客就是会请求一些小帮助。
That's what we do on podcast.
我们会请求一些小帮助。
We ask for quick favors.
请在你收听节目的平台给节目打分或写评论。
Please rate or review the show wherever you get it.
无论你是通过 iTunes、Spotify 还是其他平台听节目，都请打分或写评论。
ITunes, Spotify, wherever you're listening to the show, please rate or review it.
告诉我你是否喜欢这个节目。
Let me know if you like it.
这确实能帮我找到更多嘉宾。
It does help me find other guests.
这也能帮助其他人了解这个节目。
It does help other people know about the show.
这个节目没有特定的赞助商支持。
This show is not supported by specific sponsors.
因此，你任何帮助我传播消息的举动我都非常非常感激。
So anything you can do to help me spread the word is very very much appreciated.
当然，你也应该订阅我在Substack上的通讯。
And of course, you should also subscribe to my newsletter on Substack.
我刚发布了一篇新文章，介绍我推荐的这三本书。
I have a new post that just went out about these three books that I recommend.
我认为你必须了解的三本数据可视化书籍。
My three mapping data visualization books that I think you need.
好的。
Okay.
就这样了。
That's it.
今天我不会再请求其他帮助了。
I'm not gonna ask for any more favors today.
我们开始这一期吧。
Let's get on to this episode.
这是我与耶鲁大学的比尔·兰金就他的新书《激进制图学》进行的访谈。
Here is my interview with Bill Rankin from Yale University on his new book, Radical Cartography.
比尔，很高兴见到你。
Bill, good to meet you.
欢迎来到节目。
Welcome to the show.
约翰，能来这里真是太好了。
John, it's great to be here.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
非常感谢你，radicalcartography。
Thanks so much, radicalcartography.
正如我可能在本集的开场白中提到的，我在新年当天坐下来，从头到尾读完了这本书，中间穿插了一些《怪奇物语》的休息时间，但真的非常享受。
As I probably mentioned in the intro to this episode, sat down, read it cover to cover New Year's Day, sprinkling in some breaks for stranger things, but really, really enjoyed it.
我把这本书列为数据可视化领域三大地图类书籍之一。
I'm putting it in my top three mapping books for data viz people.
我只是觉得，一旦你理解了投影、色彩这些东西之后，我们就需要拓宽对地图的理解——地图究竟是什么，能做什么，隐藏了什么，又没有隐藏什么。
I just think it's that, like, once you sort of get the understanding of projections and color and all that stuff, like, what do we need to broaden our understanding of what maps are and what they can do and what they hide and what what they don't hide.
那么，首先，我们不如这么做？
So well, first off, why don't we do this?
你能不能先简单介绍一下自己，讲讲你的背景？
Why don't we have you maybe talk a little bit about yourself, a little background?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
当然。
Sure.
然后，我们就可以继续了。
And then, then we can go.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我是比尔·兰金。
So I'm I'm Bill Rankin.
我是耶鲁大学科学史系的教授。
I'm, I'm a professor, in the history, in history of science department at Yale.
不过，我的背景是建筑学。
My background, though, was in architecture.
我最初上了设计学校，曾长期打算成为一名建筑师。
So I originally went to design school, and thought I would be an architect, you know, for a long time.
当我意识到自己不适合当建筑师，我的天赋在别处时，制图就成了让我依然保有几分留在那个世界的方式。
And, and then when I realized I wasn't gonna be architect, that my talents laid elsewhere, mapping really was, like, was a way to kind of keep me, you know, a little bit in that world.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我去读了科学史的研究生，正是那时我才真正开始把制图作为一种方式，来让自己继续与这个领域保持联系。
So I went to graduate school for for history of science, and it was only then that I really started picking up mapping as a way to kind of keep me engaged with that whole world.
对吧？
Right?
而那之后又过了很多年，我才真正开始思考：我如何不仅能把它当作消遣，还能认真地把它当作一个学术项目来对待？
And and then it was many, many more years after that that I really started to say, oh, how can I, you know, not just do this for fun, but really sort of take it seriously as a as an intellectual project?
所以，对我来说，基本的故事就是，这原本是一种出于热爱的付出，后来我才意识到：哦，我想弄清楚如何让这个事情真正落地、产生影响？
So, yeah, I think that the the the basic story for me is just that this was a kind of a, you know, a labor of love that I eventually realized, like, oh, I can I wanna figure out how to make this, you know, really, really hit the hit the hit the hit the ground?
因此，人们经常问我：建筑在哪里？
And so the the people I ask often ask me, like, what's the where's the architecture?
设计教育在哪里？
Where's the design education in this?
简单的回答是，建筑的很大一部分在于创造事物，也就是想象那些尚未存在的空间。
And the easy answer is that so much of architecture is about creating things, you know, creating imagine spaces that don't yet exist.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，对我而言，地图制作一直是一种切入点，我始终认为地图是一种强大的方式，用于构建世界，而不仅仅是描述世界。
So that was always my kind of in for the mapping as well, seeing mapping really as a powerful way of of making worlds, not just describing them.
对。
Right.
因此，这个项目正是源于此。
So that was really the origin of the project.
所以我有这么一个或许不太公平的印象：建筑师们总是拿着大幅卷起的纸张，背景是蓝色的，拿着笔在纸上绘图，我知道现在也有电脑绘图这一面。
So I have I have this, maybe unfair, but this image of of architects of, like, big rolled up pieces of paper with the blue background and, like and and and I have an image of them drafting with pen and paper, and I know there's the computer side of it.
你的建筑背景是否有很多手绘和制图的工作？
Was your architecture background a lot of drafting and drawing?
然后你是否将这种技能转移到了制图上，比如先从现实世界开始，再真正地……
And then did you transfer that into into mapping of, like, starting in the physical world before really, like
是的。
Yeah.
硬核的电脑操作？
Hardcore computer stuff?
一些。
Some.
我觉得这其实源于绘画。
I think that my so it really comes from drawing.
是的。
Yes.
但当我进入建筑学院时，那正是钢笔和纸张最后的余晖。
But I think that when I went to architecture school, was kind of the last death throes of pen and and and paper.
所以我确实做了一些手绘，但大部分时间是在学习如何用软件绘画。
So we I did some of that, but most of it was learning to to draw with software.
因此，当我进行地图绘制时，我常常把它当作绘画来处理。
So but when I'm doing the mapping, I'm approaching it often as of as drawing.
所以我更倾向于使用Illustrator，而不是仅仅使用ArcGIS之类的工具。
So using illustrator rather, you know, rather than just ArcGIS, things like that.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
我用了很多不同的软件，但最终，我把它看作是一种绘画任务，而不是编码或类似的事情。
I use a whole bunch of different software, but in the end, I I see it as a a task of drawing rather than a task, say, of coding or of Yeah.
诸如此类。
Things like that.
所以我认为，你能看到这一点，因为我并不是从编码、制作仪表板、交互式内容等角度来处理这个问题的。
So that's where so I I think you see that in the sense that I'm not coming at this from the from the point of view of coding or creating dashboards or interactives or things like that.
我是从想要创作一幅画的角度出发的。
I'm coming at it from the point of view of seeing I I wanna create a drawing.
而这通常意味着，尤其是在最后一步，我会亲手介入，移动各种元素并添加最终的细节。
And often that means, especially at the last step, coming in there with my actual hand and and moving things around and adding the final touches.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我想再回到工具上来，因为人们肯定会对你使用的工具感到好奇。
And I wanna come back to the tools because I'm sure people will be will be are curious about the tools that you use.
但我先想谈谈这本书。
But I wanna get to the book.
所以你能先解释一下，你所说的‘激进制图学’是什么意思吗？
So can you start by just like, what do you mean by this by this term radical cartography?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我想，也许我先说说我不用这个词指的是什么。
So I think maybe first I'll say what I don't mean by it.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，我并不是指制作一堆关于左翼话题的地图，或者把制图作为激进政治项目的一部分。
Which is to say I don't mean, let's make a bunch of maps on left wing topics, or let's, use mapping as part of a radical political project.
嗯。
Mhmm.
确实有人在做这些事情。
There are people who do those things.
总的来说，我并不反对这种做法，但这并不是我的意思。
In general, I'm and, yeah, I'm not I'm not against that, approach, but it's not what I mean.
我的意思是，我们该如何看待地图这种主动的表征本身，即把数据或世界转化为地图的过程？
I mean, more how do we take the active representation itself, the translation of data or world into map?
我们如何意识到这种表征本身具有政治性？
How do we see that as something which has a politics to it?
我们在选择用形状、点、线或颜色来呈现事物时所做的决定，这些本身——而不仅仅是主题，不仅仅是数据所显示的内容——这些图形选择本身就是政治性的，并具有真正的意义。
The choices we make about whether to represent something with shapes or dots or lines or colors we use, those things themselves, not just the topics, not just what the data shows, but those choices about the graphics are themselves political and have real meaning.
如果我们忽视这些因素，往往不仅会制作出糟糕的地图，还可能削弱我们真正想传达的目标。
And if we ignore those things, we often make not just crummy maps, but maps that can kind of undermine some of the the goals we have, what we're actually trying to show.
所以这实际上关乎于让表征过程更加有意识，努力思考如何使这一过程更契合我们的价值观，更贴近我们真正想展现的内容，以及地图中实际产生的意义，而不仅仅是以一种所谓透明、诚实的方式呈现数据。
So it's really about trying to make, the process of representation more intentional to try to think about how do we align that more with our values, what we're actually trying to show, the meaning that's actually created in the maps, not just showing the data in the most sort of, you know, transparent, honest sort of way.
但这关注的是制图行为本身，而不是制图的主题。
But it's about the act of of of cartography itself rather than the topics of cartography.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
你在书中谈到了很多不同的方法，用来展现那些在制图中通常被忽视的内容。
And and you talk a lot about in the book about different ways to approach I'm gonna kind of kind of showing what tends to not be seen in cartography.
对吧？
Right?
比如小区域。
Like small areas.
你提到过美国的领地，比如关岛和美属维尔京群岛，它们往往被随意地扔到一边。
You mentioned The US territories like Guam and the Virgin Islands that tend to just be thrown off to the side.
你能谈谈你是如何思考那些我不想称之为异常值、但又不太标准、也不容易被简单地放在地图上的东西吗？
Can you talk a little bit about how you think through I don't wanna call them outliers, but the things that are not as sort of, like, standard and easy for people to just throw on a map.
还有许多其他因素需要考虑。
There are all these, like, other things to consider.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是个很好的例子。
I think that's a good example.
比如，当你用默认方式展示人口密度时，会根据每平方英里的人数给不同区域着上不同颜色，但像曼哈顿或岛屿这样的小区域，在大地图上就完全看不到。
So, you know, if you take the the default way of showing something like population density where you shade different areas, different colors based on, you know, people per square mile or whatever, that, small little areas, whether they're, you know, Manhattan or islands or whatever, you just won't be able to see them at all on a large map.
所以这并不是谁犯了错误，也没有人撒谎。
And so there's nothing like, no one's made a mistake in like, no one's lying.
没有人试图隐瞒什么。
No one's trying to hide anything.
但仅仅采用常规方式，一个无意的后果就是，小区域、城市、岛屿等完全变得不可见。
But by just doing it the usual way, one of the unintended consequences is that small areas, cities, islands, and so forth are completely invisible.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
一旦你意识到这一点，就会觉得：天啊。
And so, you know, once you realize that, you're like, oh, gosh.
我真的不该这么做。
I really shouldn't do that.
这并不一定是因为对这些地方有什么偏见，而是说，如果我真的想以我所了解的方式展现这个世界，嗯嗯。
And that isn't necessarily about having an agenda, you know, about these places, but about saying, like, if I actually wanna show the world in the way that I I know it Mhmm.
我需要重新思考我所使用的那些方法。
I need to rethink the the buttons I'm pushing.
仅仅采用默认方式，真的并不正确。
Just doing it the default way, really is is not right.
所以，我认为这是对的。
And so that's that's I think it's yeah.
这是一个很好的例子，说明了许多最简单的地图绘制方式都会带来这种将所谓的异常值扁平化的影响。
Think it's a good example of how a lot of the, kind of the easiest ways of mapping do have these consequences of flattening what you could call outliers.
我努力要做的很多事，就是思考如何确保数据或现实世界中的所有内容都能以我们能够看到并真正考虑的方式呈现在地图上。
And a lot of what I try to do is to say, how do we make sure that everything either in the data or or in the in the world is actually on this map in a way that we can see and we can actually consider?
或者换一种方式来说，如果我正在制作一张包含人群或地貌的地图，我该如何确信，我所描绘的人群能在地图上看到自己呢？
Or another way I think about it is if I'm making a map that has people or landscapes, whatever, how how can I be confident that the people I'm mapping will be able to see themselves on this map?
所以，如果你在制作一张地图，比如书中举的例子是西班牙裔拉丁裔美国人，而你只是按照标准方式，用县或邮政编码等的百分比来表示。
So if you're making a map, say, have an example in the book of Hispanic Latino Americans and you're just doing it the standard way of, you know, percent of of total by county or ZIP code or whatever.
有很多地方的答案会接近于零。
There's lots of places where the answer will be close to zero.
对。
Right.
而这些人将完全无法在地图上找到自己的身影。
And those people won't be able to find themselves on the map at all.
对。
Right.
所以我认为，这与其说是对异常值的着迷，不如说……
So I think, yeah, there's it's not so much about a fascination with outliers.
更关键的是，我想确保如果按常规方式来做，我不会遗漏那些会被抹去的内容。
It's more trying to say, okay, if I do it the usual way, I wanna make sure that I, I'm catching the things that would be erased.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，有些听众在收听这个播客这一集时，可能会听到你说，这并不是左翼的立场。
So I think there can be people who listen to this podcast, this episode, and hear you say, oh, this is not from a left wing perspective.
这不是一种政治立场。
It's not a political perspective.
但同时他们也会觉得，这听起来就像是所谓的‘觉醒’文化。
But also at the same time say, oh, this just sounds like, you know, woke.
我们希望人们能被看见。
You know, we want people to be seen.
而且，我也在另一个领域做类似的工作，我想请你谈谈，从你的角度来看，让人们对数据、地图或视觉化内容中看到自己，并不是某种左翼或右翼的意识形态。
So and, you know, I'm doing similar work in in another vein, and I'd just like to ask you to talk about how, from your perspective, enabling people to see themselves in the data in a map, in a visual is not some sort of left wing or right wing, you know, ideology.
这不是‘觉醒’文化。
It's not a it's not woke.
这并不是说真的吗？
It's not you know?
所以如果有人对你说，嘿，这本书就是所谓的‘觉醒’文化。
So if someone came to you and said, ah, this stuff this book is just woke.
它只是想，你知道的，随便怎样。
It's just it's just trying to, like, you know, whatever.
那你对此会如何理性回应？
Like, what would your measured response to that be?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得有几点可以说明。
Well, I think a couple of things.
我认为，我确实愿意为确保人们被看见、被听见的价值辩护。
I think that, I do think that I'm happy to stand up for the value of making sure that people are seen and heard.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Definitely.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，我希望这不仅仅是一种左翼价值观，但也许它就是。
And, you know, I I hope that's not just a left wing value, but it might be.
我想，核心问题是，我觉得好像有一种观点，认为让每个人都被看见是一种比较温和的东西。
I guess to the core of the point, I feel like there is this, like, oh, you need to make everybody feel seen is this sort of, like, soft thing.
我的意思是，我让你来回答，但从我的角度看，如果人们能在其中看到自己，他们就更有可能去使用它。
I mean, I'll let you answer, but, like, I from my perspective, it's just it's if people see themselves, it's more likely that they're gonna use it.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean, I I Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
对我来说，这很简单，但我想听听你的
Me, it's a very simple, you know but I wanna hear your
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以我来举个好例子。
So I here here's a good example.
所以像地图变形图，我相信这个观众都很熟悉，是的。
So cartograms, which I'm sure this audience knows well, yeah.
我经常看到它们。
I I I see them all the time.
我喜欢它们，但我自己并不怎么用。
I like them, but I don't really use them myself.
比如说，一张标准的选举地图，我们会用红色或蓝色来标注各县，对吧？
And what happens with a, say, standard map of, say, an election, right, we are shading red or blue by counties.
这些城市在地图上几乎会看不见。
These cities are gonna be almost invisible.
对吧？
Right?
这正是我刚才说的那种情况。
Exactly the way I was just talking about.
所以，一张没有地理变形的标准选举地图，会过度代表农村地区。
And so a standard election map with no, you know, geographic distortion it's gonna over represent rural areas.
这实际上是一张土地的地图，而不是人口的地图，诸如此类的问题。
It's, you know, it's a map of land rather than people, all these kinds of things.
但相反，人口地图则会根据人口数量进行变形，使城市变得巨大，而农村地区则几乎看不见。
But the opposite so the alternative of the cartogram where you deform based on population, where the cities become huge, like rural areas now become almost invisible.
对吧？
Right?
它们被拉伸成细如意大利面的条状，你根本无法分辨自己在地图上的位置。
They become stretched to these thin little spaghetti strands where you can't even figure out where on the map you are.
所以，整个怀俄明州都变成角落里一个奇怪的小块。
So all, you know, all of Wyoming becomes a kind of weird little thing in the corner.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这也不是什么好办法。
I don't think that's good either.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我不只是想支持那些被‘觉醒’群体视为边缘化并加以推崇的人的声音，而是想说，比如地图变形法虽然能很好地展现城市人口，却完全抹杀了农村地区，这也不是一个好方案。
So I don't think so it's not just that I wanna hold up the voices of people who are, you know, marginalized in the way that the woke community would want to, valorize, but to say that, like, cartograms, for example, that that show city population pretty well but completely obliterate rural areas, that's also not a good solution.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
因此，我在书中试图寻找一些方法，来探讨如何同时保留这些不同因素，寻求一些策略性的折中方案，而不是断言唯一正确的方式就是只展示城市或只展示农村地区，以对抗那种认为存在一种唯一正确方式来呈现一切的观念。
And so what I'm trying to to do in the book is to try to find some ways to say how do we keep all these things kind of in play at the same time, find some strategic compromises rather than to say the only one correct way to do it is to only show cities or to only show rural areas, to try to push back against the the sense that, there can be a single correct way to show everything.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
但这和所谓的‘让我们绘制突出那些传统上被忽视人群的地图’，也略有不同。
But just and and I think that that's that's also a little different than the, you know, let's find maps that highlight the people who have been traditionally obscured.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
而是要说，我们如何找到一种制图方式，使我们的思维保持灵活，意识到：当我们采用这种方式时，实际上是在展示更多这部分或更少那部分之间做出权衡，从而让我们始终处于这些权衡之中，而不是试图寻找一张最终的、能完美呈现世界本来面貌的地图。
But rather to say, how do we find ways, doing maps that that keep our thinking flexible and to say, okay, when we do it this way, we're making a trade off between showing more of this or less of this, and to kind of keep ourselves in those trade offs rather than trying to say, I wanna find the one final map that shows the world the way that I think it should be found or should should be seen.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，书中有一整个章节是关于人口分布图的，你将它们描述为一种修正性的工具，而不是能够独立存在的地图。
I mean, there's a whole section, on on cartograms in the book and you you describe them as corrective, the word corrective rather than maps that stand on on their own.
所以当你想到选举这个例子时，这再完美不过了。
So when you think about I think the election example is is perfect.
当你考虑一个能展示选举结果的优秀平台时，你认为更好地传达数据的方式，是给人们提供多种视角来观察地理区域吗？
When you think about a good, platform that's showing your election results, do you think that sort of the the better way to communicate the data is to give people opportunities to see the geographies in different ways?
我认为这肯定比仅仅提供一张地图要好得多。
I think that's certainly better than just here's the one map, for sure.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我认为，但我不太喜欢那种策略——就是同时展示一张按土地面积绘制的地图和一张人口分布图，让用户来回切换，因为这两种图都很难同时把握。
And I think that, but I I don't I don't love the the strategy of just here's the, you know, the the map of land area, and here's the cartogram, and you can go back and forth because they're so difficult to keep those two Yeah.
在你脑子里。
In your head.
对吧？
Right?
因为它们太不一样了。
Because they're just so different.
所以我在书中提出的方案是，我并不是第一个做这类事情的人，我会思考如何使用像比例圆这样的方式，同时让它们保留在原有的地理位置上，这样我们就能知道人们在哪里、有多少人、他们如何投票。
So what I come up with in the book and I I'm not the first person to to do these kinds of things, to say, how do I, you know, use things like scale circles, but to keep them in their kind of, you know, geographic place so we know where people are, how many people they are, how they're voting.
就像，保持我们所提出的问题的清晰，然后尝试找到一种地图，即使不能完美地实现所有功能，也能很好地完成这些核心目标，而不是说：这里有两三种不同的方式来可视化相同的数据，但我不帮你整合它们。
Like, just keep track of the questions we're asking, and then to try to find a map that does those things pretty well even if it doesn't do everything perfectly rather than saying, here are the two or three different ways you can visualize the same data, and I'm not gonna help you figure out how to integrate them.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
所以我们直接跳到了等值区域图。
So we kinda sped right to cartograms.
我想再回过头来谈谈标准的彩色渐变地图，也就是等值区域图。
I wanna come back a second to sort of the standard color shaded map, the choropleth map.
我觉得这非常有趣。
I really found it interesting.
我想你在书中从未使用过‘等值区域图’这个词。
You never I don't think you ever used the word choropleth map, in the book.
你称它们为拼图地图，我非常喜欢这个说法。
You call them jigsaw puzzle maps, which I love.
直到我读到书的开篇部分，我才突然意识到，那张地图的样式确实就像一幅拼图，整个图表就是如此呈现的。
And and it never really occurred to me until I there's, like, a part in the book in the very beginning where you sort of, like, the map looks exactly like a jigsaw puzzle the way it's just the the diagram.
我很好奇。
I'm curious.
我猜你刻意避免使用‘等值区域图’这类术语，我想知道你是如何做出这个决定的。
I'm assuming that was a conscious decision on your part to not use terms like choropleth, and I'm curious how, you know, how you came to that decision.
是的。
Yeah.
我想choropleth这个词可能在脚注里出现过一两次，但你说得对。
So I think I think choropleth might have snuck into a footnote or two, but you're right.
我确实不用这个词。
I I don't use it.
好的。
Okay.
也许我没仔细看所有的脚注。
Maybe I didn't go through all the footnotes.
是的。
Yeah.
关键是，这确实是一个有意识的选择。
The point is, like, it was in fact a conscious choice.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以这个词确实是我用过的，我经常思考它，而且在我的学术研究中，我确实做过一些研究，探讨这个词的起源以及为什么它在20世纪30年代被创造出来。
So I it's a it's certainly a word that that I've used, that I think about, and I've in my in my academic work, I've actually done some some research on where that term came from and why it was used, why it was, you know, coined in the nineteen thirties.
在书中，我认为有两个原因。
And in the book, there's I think it's two reasons.
最简单的一个是，我希望这本书能吸引那些对地图几乎没有思考过的人。
The the the simplest is I want this book to speak to people who have who haven't really thought about maps that much.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而不仅仅是面向那些已经深入思考过地图的人。
Not just to speak to people who've already thought them out about them a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
我一直觉得‘choropleth’这个词听起来很笨拙。
And I've always found the the term choropleth kind of clunky.
人们常常会读错它。
People, you know, often mispronounce it.
他们以为是‘chloropleth’，就像‘chloroform’（氯仿）那样。
They think, you know, you know, chloropleth, like like chloroform or whatever.
对吧？
Right?
对吧？
Right?
这根本不是一个好词。
It's just not a great not a great term.
所以这相当于关上了窗户，而不是打开它们。
So that would be a way of kind of, you know, closing off the the the windows rather than than opening them up.
但我觉得，除了这一点，当‘choropleth’在三十年代被创造出来时，它正是当时试图系统化制图学的一部分。
But I think that beyond that though, what core when choropleth was coined in the thirties, it was part of a moment of really trying to systematize cartography.
我们可以为不同类型的技法使用一些特定的术语。
Say we can have some specific vocabulary for different kinds of techniques.
展示这类数据有三种方法。
There's three ways to show this kind of data.
展示这类比例有四种方法。
There's four ways to show these kinds of ratios.
对吧？
Right?
而且要整体上让制图变得更技术化、更系统化、更抽象一些。
And to have a sort of an overall to make cartography more technical, more systematic, a bit more abstract.
对吧？
Right?
所以重点不在于如何展示人口、选举或地形，而在于如何一般性地展示定量数据。
So it's not about, how do you show, you know, say, population or elections or landforms, but how do you show quantitative data in general.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
或者定性数据，我们怎么知道这些类型的东西？
Or qualitative data or how do we know those kinds of things.
我觉得这样不太好。
And and I feel like that's not great.
我觉得，让地图制作与你所展示内容的实际意义保持联系，这一点非常重要。
I feel like there's something really important about having mapping be in touch with the actual meaning of what you're showing.
我认为，拼图作为一种隐喻，确实更能让人体会到以这种方式呈现世界所涉及的关键问题。
And I think that the jigsaw puzzle as a kind of metaphor does do more to sort of, you know, get a sense of what's at stake with representing the world that way.
对吧？
Right?
你还有这样的想法，比如，这意味着你可以取出某些部分，也许把它们扔到地上。
And you have this idea of, like, oh, that means you can take certain pieces out, maybe, you know, throw them on the floor.
它们是彼此独立的东西。
They're independent sorts of things.
每一块都是一个独立的东西，你知道的，它只是恰好与其他块相邻，但并不会真正与它们互动。
Each piece is a kind of independent thing, you know, that just happens to slot in next to others, but doesn't really interact with them.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这个术语更能唤起人们对这种表征形式所涉及的核心问题的感知，而不仅仅是把它归入某种技术性词汇。
I think that the the the term gives it conjures more about what's at stake with that form representation rather than just slotting it into a kind of, you know, technical vocabulary.
对。
Yeah.
对我来说，当我读到那一部分时，我觉得它也在某种程度上拓宽了我对地图的看法，你知道的，并不是所有东西都必须相邻。
It also for me, when I got to that section, I think it also, I wanna say in some ways, opened my view to thinking about maps as, you know, they not everything has to be adjacent.
正如你所说，你可以把某些东西拿走，也可以加入新的东西。
To your point, you can take things out and you can put things in.
这里有一种自由，你不必受限于仅仅使用某种投影方式。
And there's a freedom there where you're not bound by just using the, you know, whatever projection
嗯。
Mhmm.
你可以开始尝试移动各种元素，以更有效地讲述故事。
That you can start to play around with moving things around to tell the story as effectively as possible.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这听起来很好，我支持这个观点。
I think that that seems I I I I'm I'm in favor of that.
我觉得那个，嗯。
I think that the yeah.
我认为关键在于，地图是如何为我们提供一种对世界的理解方式的。
The the I think the main thing really is how is the map giving us a kind of take on the world.
对吧？
Right?
这不同于我们该如何呈现我们的数据集。
Which is different than how are we gonna represent our dataset.
因此，可以说，确实可能存在一些不太常规的技术，比如剪切粘贴、重新排列之类的。
And so to say, yeah, there might be other techniques that are a bit unorthodox that might mean, you know, cutting and pasting, rearranging or whatever.
他们将提供一种我能够认同的世界观。
They're gonna give up an account of the world that I I can stand behind.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，我绝对支持这种赋予自己这种自由度的做法。
And so I'm I'm definitely in favor of of that kind of giving yourselves a license for that kind of freedom.
是的。
Yeah.
我要做一些不一样的事情，因为我感觉这才是呈现我所理解的事物的方式。
And to say, I'm gonna do things a little differently because I I I feel like this is the the the way to represent the the things that I as I understand them.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，书中另一部分我特别喜欢的是，所有这些例子中，有很多我认出来了，但之前并不知道是你的作品。
I mean, the the other part of the book that I really liked throughout all the examples and and what I found kind of funny is that there were so many in here that I recognize but didn't know they were yours.
这对我来说挺有趣的。
So that was kind of entertaining for me.
在你的许多作品中，你将不同的元素叠加在一起。
How in a lot of your work, you layer things together.
你把对数据的不同视角叠加在一起。
You layer sort of different perspectives on data together.
我特别喜欢的一个例子是，你有一张世界地图，呈矩形框状，水平轴上则是人口分布的直方图。
So one example that I really like is you have this map of the world in sort of a rectangular box, and then along the the horizontal axis is the distribute basically, histogram of population.
你能谈谈，在这种关于如何呈现数据的讨论中，你是如何思考在同一个我称之为地图的视觉呈现中，将不同的视角叠加起来的吗？其实它更像一个更大的视觉整体。
Can you talk a little bit how, you know, in this discussion of in this discussion how you think about presenting data, you'd layer different sort of views together within a single I'll I'll call it a map, but it's really sort of like a a bigger visual.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我尽量避免的是：制作一张完美展示所有内容的最终地图。
I I think that the the the the main thing I try to resist is let's make the the final map that shows everything perfectly.
如果你试图回答‘如何完美地展示世界人口’，你永远无法通过这种直方图的方式实现。
And I think if you're trying to say, how do I show the population of the world perfectly, right, you're never gonna come up with that kind of histogram approach.
对吧？
Right?
因为按纬度和经度绘制的人口直方图显然遗漏了很多信息。
Because the histogram of by latitude and longitude, obviously, leaves a lot of stuff out.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
但我认为我应该更明确地思考我的实际问题是什么，然后分别思考如何回答每一个问题？
But so I think that I I like being more intentional about what are my actual questions, and then how do I answer each of those questions perhaps individually?
我可能会有多个问题，因此在同一个项目中也可能有多个不同的内容。
And I might have more than one, and so I might have more than one thing in the same project.
如果我有一个问题，比如我很好奇人类人口的分布如何随纬度变化。
If I have a question like, I'm actually kind of curious how the distribution of, you know, human population varies by latitude.
我可以独立地提出这个问题，而不必考虑人们在亚洲或其他地区的分布情况。
I can ask that question independently of, you know, how are people distributed within Asia or whatever.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
但我还想知道，人们在亚洲内部是如何分布的？
And but I'm also interested in, how are people distributed within Asia?
所以，我可以针对这个问题提出一个独立的疑问。
And so I can, you know, have a have a separate question about that.
因此，我认为对自己保持清醒的意识非常重要，是的。
So I think that having saying, being really conscious for myself, Yes.
无论是对我的受众、读者，还是仅仅作为制图者自己，我的问题是什么？我如何确保能清晰地回答这些问题，而不是仅仅说‘我在做地图’。
For my audience, my readers, but even just for myself as the mapmaker, what are my questions, and how do I make sure that I'm getting clear answers to those questions rather than just saying I'm trying to do mapping.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
所以从一个问题开始，而不是先想着最终产品会是什么样子。
So starting with a question rather than, kind of a thought of what a final product is.
是的。
Yeah.
或者想着，这就是我们做事的方式。
Or or a thought of, this is the way we do it.
对吗？
Right?
对。
Right.
所以，如果你看一下人口制图的历史，无论是百年前的图集还是现在网上的各种地图，都是这样：好吧。
So there's you know, if you look at the history of population mapping, a hundred years or more of in atlases and online everywhere, it's like, okay.
你会根据一种从浅米色到深红褐色的颜色梯度来进行着色。
You make you know, you you shade based on kind of a a color scale that goes from a kind of pale buff to a darker, you know, reddish brown.
人口密度，即全球每平方英里的人口数量。
Population density, people per square mile around the world.
我们就是这样做的。
That's how we do it.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我发现，一旦你开始寻找这类地图，就会不断看到它，简直就是复制粘贴。
And I see I just I've seen once you go looking for that kind of map, you see it so many again and again, it's just a cut and paste.
对吧？
Right?
我们已经提到过几个我认为这样做的问题。
And we've already touched on a couple of reasons that that I think is not good.
你知道，你根本看不到城市。
You know, you can't see cities.
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你看不到岛屿。
You can't see islands.
我觉得这个颜色标度，再次说，只要你稍微退远一点看，它显然在以一种甚至不准确的方式唤起肤色的联想。
I think the color scale, again, like, once you step back a little bit, it's obviously conjuring skin color in a way that's, like, not even accurate.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
我的意思是，没错，我确实有这个图表，但它在好几个方面都不准确。
It's like I I mean, yeah, I mean, I have it it's not not accurate for a a few different reasons.
对吧？
Right?
同一个地方的人并不都有相同的肤色。
Not everyone in the same place has the same skin color.
是的。
Yeah.
但人口最密集的地区并不是肤色较深的人群聚集的地方。
But also the most densely populated areas are not the places where people have the darker skin color.
这中间有很多问题。
Like, there's all sorts of problems with that.
对吧？
Right?
所以，是的。
And so so yeah.
在过去多年的很多时间里，我一直在使用同一个数据集，提出了各种不同的问题。
That's what I would say over the last, you know, many years, I've I've taken that same literally the same dataset and asked so many different questions of it.
所以纬度和经度是其中一个因素。
So the latitude and longitude is one of them.
有一个没写进书里的是关于按海拔分布的人口。
One that didn't make it in the book is just how does population distribution by altitude.
所以我有一个关于人们居住海拔高度的直方图。
So I have a, you know, histogram of where people live in terms of, you know, level.
书里提到的一个问题是，如果你把世界分成两个半球，哪个半球人口最多？
One that is in the book is trying to think about how, you know, if you divide the world into two hemispheres, which is the hemisphere that has the most people?
嗯。
Mhmm.
你可以选出一个包含93%全球人口的半球，而地球的另一侧只有7%。
And you can pick a hemisphere that has 90 set 93% of all population, and the other side of the earth has 7%.
这又是另一个独立的小问题。
That was another just a separate little question.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我认为这就是关键。
So, so I think that's the thing.
这是一种聚焦式的问题，而不是必须按照我们继承下来的方式展示整个数据集。
It's a kind of question focused, rather than I need to show my entire dataset in the way that we've kind of inherited.
对吧？
Right?
但你是把人口作为例子来考虑吗？
So but are you thinking of it as let's take population.
你有一份包含这些不同要素的庞大人口数据集。
So you have you have some big dataset of population by all these different, elements.
在我看来，你似乎是在向数据提问，视觉化是最后才出现的。
Are you thinking, sounds to me, I'll put it this way, it sounds to me that you are sort of asking questions of the data, and sort of like the visual comes last.
我的意思是，这是一本关于制图的书。
I mean, is a book on mapping.
你做了很多制图，但在我看来，你并不是在探讨人口分布的问题。
You do a lot of mapping, but it doesn't sound to me that you are coming to asking a question about the distribution of population.
我该怎么从这些数据中做出另一种类型的地图呢？
How am I gonna make a different kind of map out of that?
你只是在提出问题，然后怎样才能有效地将其可视化呢？
You're just asking questions, and then what is the way to effectively visualize it?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我认为这是对的。
I say I mean, I think that's that's right.
我认为这个过程也是迭代的。
I think that it's also iterative.
是的。
Yeah.
我花在数据集上的时间越多，就越觉得：哦，我居然没想过这个问题。
The more time I spend with the dataset, the more I'm like, oh, there's a question I didn't think to ask.
是的。
Yeah.
或者，比如高程图，单靠全球人口数据集是无法回答这个问题的。
Or, like, the map of elevation, like, just the single dataset of population around the world won't ask answer that.
我得把人口数据和数字高程模型（DEM）结合起来。
I have to, you I have to combine that with a a a the the DEM for elevation.
所以，没错，这并不是说我在看数据之前就已经知道所有问题了。
So, so, yeah, it's not just it's not just, I I know all the questions before I look at the data.
对。
Yeah.
通常，在我看数据之前，根本不知道有什么好问题。
Often, don't know any real good questions before I look at the data.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但最终，我想确保自己并不是仅仅在试图说，那种常见的陈词滥调——认为真理已经存在于数据中，等着你去发现。
But in the end, I wanna make sure I'm not just trying to say I I think, like, a lot of the standard kind of cliched advice is about trying to find the truth in your data as if it's already there.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
但这里就是数据集。
But here's the dataset.
去探索它，找出其中的模式。
Explore it and and figure out what the the patterns are.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
这个想法是，你知道的，不同的人看到同一个数据集时，会得出相同的结论，发现相同的模式，并以相同的方式呈现。
And the idea is, you know, different people would come across the same dataset and and reach the same conclusions, find the same patterns, represented the same sort of way.
但我们知道这并不真实。
And we know that's not true.
不同的人会发现不同的有趣现象。
Different people will find different interesting things going on.
所以我认为，如果我们能更诚实地面对这一点就好了——这其实关乎我个人独特的方式来探索这份特定数据，我会始终围绕我想提出的问题展开，并确保我得出的结论能很好地回答这些问题。
And so I think the more we can be kind of honest with ourselves that's what's going on, that this is about my own somewhat idiosyncratic way of exploring this particular data, and I'm gonna always kinda keep myself to the the questions I wanna ask, and then make sure that what I'm coming up with is answering those questions pretty well.
这就是这个想法。
That's the idea.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这和我只是下载一个人口数据集完全不同，对吧。
Which is really different, think, than just I download the the population dataset Yeah.
我需要把它呈现出来，因为这是我的工作。
And I need to represent it because that's my job.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我确实想问一下，你提到了高程图或海拔图。
I I did wanna ask that you mentioned the the elevation, the altitude map.
我不记得看到过很多三维地图的讨论。
I don't think I saw a lot of mention of maps that are done in three in a third dimension.
你对此有强烈的看法吗？
Do you have strong feelings?
我知道有个叫ray shader的包，过去一两年很多人用它来制作更多三维地图。
I know there's the ray shader package, which I know people been using a lot the last year or two to, like, make more of the, you know, three three-dimensional maps.
但你对制作三维地图有没有强烈的偏好或意见？
But do you have a strong feelings in either direction about making maps that are three d?
你说得对。
I you're right.
我不做那种地图。
I don't do that.
我觉得你可能指的是那种带有倾斜视角的地图，比如从空中俯瞰的。
I I think I I assume you're thinking about the ones where there's kind of an oblique view from Yeah.
像是从飞机上拍摄的那种。
An airplane or something like that.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我觉得其中一部分原因是，我觉得那些三维图表有时更难处理，因为当你在三维表面上让柱状图之类的元素冒出来时，可能会出现很多干扰因素。
I I think that there's some of that is because I I feel like those are sometimes harder to like, there's lots of confounding, things that could happen when you're sort of having the the bar charts, you know, erupting off of the three-dimensional surface and that kind of stuff.
你知道，当你同时展示数据和视角时，你是如何考虑透视问题的，诸如此类的事情。
You know, how are you taking perspective into account when you're trying to show the the data at the same time you're showing the view, that kind of thing.
其中一部分我觉得是因为我当时已经忙于处理大量的三维内容了。
Some of that I think is that I I think I just I had my plate full with with with three-dimensional stuff.
这让我更多地想到的是动画之类的东西，而不是三维内容。
And what it makes me think about more than the three d stuff is the kind of animations and things like that.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
好的。
Okay.
因为我做动画比较少。
Because I've done less with animations.
我做过一些。
I've done some.
是的
Yep.
我知道怎么做，但我其实并不做。
I I I know how to do it, but I don't I don't do it really.
我认为原因在于，制作动画或交互式内容通常意味着你在可提出的问题类型以及结果的清晰度上做出了重大妥协。
And I think that the the reason is because doing the animations or the interactives often means that you're making a real compromise on the kinds of questions you can ask, and the clarity of the of what you can come up with.
我想起了一些过去非常出色的地图，它们根本不可能做成动画。
So I I I think of some really fantastic examples of maps from the past that could never be animations at all.
我想到一个例子，这是来自二十世纪四十年代的，展示了九月是飓风月。
There's one that I was thinking about, this is from the nineteen forties, showed September as hurricane month.
嗯
Mhmm.
它展示了所有曾在九月袭击美国东部的飓风的路径。
And so it showed all the hurricane the tracks of all the hurricanes that have hit the Eastern United States in any September ever.
嗯
Mhmm.
看到这个真的很有趣，哦，是的。
And it's really interesting to see like, oh, yeah.
我从未想过九月是最容易发生飓风的月份。
I never thought about September as the most hurricane month.
这里展示了所有曾经袭击东海岸的九月飓风，而这些无法做成动画。
And here are all the different September hurricanes that ever hit the East Coast, and it wouldn't work as an animation.
对吧？
Right?
不对。
No.
一个不断展示风暴接踵而至的动画，无法传达出‘哦，九月’的那种感觉。
An animation that showed storm after storm after storm wouldn't get that sense of, oh, September.
是的。
Yeah.
九月里正在发生某些事情。
Something going on in September.
我想更多地了解九月。
I wanna know more about September.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
而且，当你用静态图表、流地图之类的方式呈现时间时，我觉得这种方式更精致一些。
And just that way of showing time, I think, in a more sophisticated way when you have it as a static graphic, or flow maps or things like that.
静态图表有一些动画难以实现的表达方式。
There's things you can do with static graphs that are just harder to do with animations.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我觉得，也许在三维空间中，情况也类似。
And so I think maybe with a three-dimensional thing, it's it's a similar sort of thing.
我觉得三维视图和动画都有点趣味性，但它们实际上极大地限制了我们能制作的分析型图表的类型。
They're like, there's something fun about the three-dimensional views, there's something fun about the animations, but it actually really limits the kinds of, kind of analytic graphics we can make.
对。
Right.
关于动画或交互式与静态图表，我经常问别人一个问题，就是抛开工具的复杂性不谈。
On this animation or interactive versus static, it's a question I ask a lot of people, which is ignoring the complexity of the tools.
你认为，一般来说，静态地图比交互式或动画地图更难制作吗？
Do you think, generally speaking, static maps are harder to create than interactive or animated maps?
我觉得我不确定这跟难或易有关。
I think I I don't I don't I don't know that it's about harder or easier.
从技术角度来看，制作动画地图确实很难。
Certainly, from a technical point of view, you know, making animated maps is hard.
对。
Right.
而且还有就是我
And there's and I
我认为，从工具和代码中提取出来，某种程度上，静态地图你必须明确选择一个故事。
think extract from the the tool, the code, in some you know, in some ways, the static map, you kinda have to pick a story Exactly.
有效。
Effective.
而动画或交互性则让用户能够自行探索。
And animation or interactivity allows the user to do that.
是的。
Yeah.
但也许这对地图来说并不合适。
But maybe that's not right for maps.
我不确定。
I don't know.
哦，我认为这基本上是对的。
Oh, I I think that I I think it is is is basically right.
所以我认为，静态地图既给你提供了选择，也给了你机会，甚至可以说是责任，去思考我到底想展示什么。
So I think that having the static map gives you the the both the I'd say the the option and the opportunity, maybe the obligation as the map maker to figure out what am I actually trying to show
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
而且不能借口说：我就把所有数据都展示出来。
And there's no cop out of just, I'm gonna show all my data.
是的
Yeah.
然后让用户自己去弄清楚发生了什么。
And I'm gonna let the user figure out what's going on.
嗯
Mhmm.
而且我认为这里还涉及更大的伦理问题，因为很多项目的核心都是试图将数据交到用户手中。
And I think there's a larger ethic there too where there's a lot of projects that are really about trying to get data in the hands of users.
我认为这总体上是好的。
And I think that's generally good.
我自己确实从中受益良多，我可以直接获取数据，而不必去使用那些繁琐的政府网站之类的。
I certainly benefited that a lot from from that a lot myself where I can go and just get the data myself rather than having to go through some clunky, government website or whatever.
但我认为，仅仅这样做本身是不够的。
But I think that that can that that that itself isn't enough.
对吧？
Right?
我认为，真正重要的是，我需要弄清楚这个数据集中包含什么，并尝试向我的受众呈现出来。
I think that there is something really important about saying, I also need to figure out what's in this dataset and to try to present that to my audience.
我不能只是把数据丢给他们，然后说，是的。
I can't just dump the data on them and say, yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我拥有多个高级学位和大量的技术技能，但我却期望你能比我更好地理解这些数据。
I have, you know, several advanced degrees and a lot of technical skills, but I'm gonna expect that you're gonna go through this data better than I can.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以对我来说，这不是非此即彼，而是两者兼顾，就是说，没错。
So for me, it's not it's not it's a both and thing, which is like, yes.
分享数据。
Share the data.
当然。
Absolutely.
但我也觉得有责任说，我会弄清楚我认为这里重要的内容，是的。
But also, I think that there's I feel obliged actually to say, I'm gonna figure out what I think is important here Yeah.
然后试着以一种方式整合起来，让问题清晰、答案明确，并说，我认为这才是重要的，这是我希望你知道的，同时也不会剥夺你们自己探索的权利。
And to try to then put it together in a way, that makes the questions clear, the answers clear, and say, I think this is what's important, and this is what I want you to know about it Without then without without also shutting down their ability to to to, you know, explore themselves.
是的。
Yeah.
所以像动画这样的东西，我觉得更难做到这一点。
So things like animations, I I think that there's, it's harder to I think it is harder to do that.
很难说清楚我想专注于什么，因为屏幕上的大部分带宽都用在展示这种信息流上了。
It's harder to say, this is the thing that I wanna focus on because so much of the the bandwidth on the on the screen is really about just showing this this this flow of information.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
我也很担心，尤其是对于地图而言，因为它们可能包含大量数据，当你展示一个需要大量带宽的动态或交互式地图时，很多人的宽带接入条件不足，或者他们的手机或电脑无法充分呈现创作者原本希望用户看到的丰富内容。
I also worry especially for maps because they can be so data dense that when you put up an animated or interactive map that requires a lot of bandwidth, that there's a lot of people who don't have the broadband access or they don't have the phone or computer that allows them to sort of see the full the full richness of the project that the person that the creator sort of intended them to see.
所以我有点担心。
And so I worry a little bit.
说到你之前提到的城乡差距问题，确实，在美国，很多农村地区的人们无法获得良好的互联网接入。
I mean, to the earlier point you made about the rural urban divide, I mean, you've got a lot of people in rural areas, at least in The United States, who don't have good access to the Internet.
所以如果你创建了一个需要大量带宽的沉重内容，他们就无法与之互动。
And so if you create this really heavy thing that requires a lot of bandwidth, you know, they're not gonna be able to interact with it.
我认为这不仅仅关乎真正的带宽问题。
I I think that's not just true for, like, literal bandwidth questions.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我自己也有这种感受。
I find it true for myself.
比如，当我遇到一个非常酷的项目时，我是在笔记本电脑上查看的。
Like, when I come across, you know, even a really cool project, I'm on my laptop.
这是一台不错的笔记本，但屏幕并没有大到足以展现它原本设计时的完整效果。
It's a nice laptop, but it's not the huge screen that I think it was probably designed on.
对。
Right.
所以很多时候，这些所谓的仪表板类东西，最终我实际能操作的，也就只有屏幕上的三四英寸大小。
And so a lot of times these, you know, dashboard y things, like in the end, it's like a, you know, three by four inch of the screen is what I actually I have to deal with.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
而且很笨重。
And and it's clunky.
它不流畅，你知道的，它很慢。
It's not, you know, it's it's slow.
我并不是网络不好。
I don't I don't I'm I'm on a good connection.
我不知道问题出在哪里。
I don't know what the problem is.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我认为其中一部分甚至只是设计问题。
But I think some of it is even just the design.
我觉得它是为大屏幕设计的。
Like, I think it's designed on a huge screen.
是的。
Yeah.
即使在像我笔记本电脑这样稍小一点的屏幕上，它也根本用不了。
And even on a slightly smaller screen like my laptop, it just doesn't really work.
这真的很遗憾，因为显然这里投入了大量的思考和工作。
And, and it's a real shame because clearly a lot of thought and work has gone into that.
不过，我认为我的做法是，针对我认为它们会被使用的尺寸来设计，然后提供一个大尺寸的下载版本。
But, yeah, I think that my my approach has been to have things that work on the size that I think that they're gonna be seen, and then to be able to download a big version of it.
再说一遍，就是一张大的PNG图片，你知道的，一个静态的东西。
Again, kind of bit just a big PNG, you know, a static thing.
是的。
Yeah.
人们可以保存它。
People can save it.
这是很多互动项目面临的大问题：它们在网页上能运行一两年，但之后某个地方就出问题了，然后就再也无法使用，你什么都做不了。
That's the big problem, think, with a lot of interactives is that they work for a a year or two on the web, something breaks, and then they never and you can't you can't do anything with them.
我觉得这又稍微回到了建筑和绘图的问题上，我总是提醒自己，也提醒和我一起工作的学生：你必须考虑你所创造之物的实际尺寸。
And I think that then even comes back a little bit to architecture and drawing, where, I'm always reminding myself, reminding the students that I work with, you gotta check-in with the actual, you know, dimensions of the thing you're gonna be creating.
是的。
Yeah.
不要一上来就说：我要做一个在沉浸式世界里能无限缩放的地图，或者我要做一个24乘36英寸的大屏幕，诸如此类。
Instead of saying, I'm gonna make make a kind of a map that works if you're in this immersive world where you can zoom in and out forever, or I'm have a huge 24 by 36 inch screen, whatever.
那如果它被打印在一张六乘九英寸的纸上呢？
Like, what about when it's printed in a in a on a six by nine inch page Yeah.
或者它出现在笔记本电脑、手机上呢？
Or it's on a laptop or a or a phone or whatever?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我看到很多人做的地图都需要不断缩放，因为根本不存在一个单一的缩放级别能让内容真正有效呈现。
I think that there's a I see a lot of people making maps that kind of require this constant zooming in and out because you can't actually nothing really works at the at a single zoom level.
我很好奇，既然你提到了这一点，书中有没有哪些地图或图像因为你必须去掉，或者需要重新制作，以便适应纸质书的页面尺寸？
I'm curious now that you mentioned that, were there maps or images in the book that you either had to get rid of or you had to go back and recreate so that they would work in the in the physical book size of the page?
当然有。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
确实有一些地图根本没收入书中，因为我原本是把它们设计成大幅海报的。
So there's definitely maps that didn't get in the book at all because I had designed them as big posters.
我曾经把它们作为海报展出，但当你把它们缩小后，效果就完全不行了。
I had, you know, exhibited them as posters, and when you shrink them down, they just it didn't work.
对吧？
Right?
还有很多地图，我不得不回去重新修改，比如文字、线条等所有这些内容，让它们适应书本的尺寸。
And then there's plenty of maps where I had to go back and redo, you know, the the the text, the line work, all that kind of stuff to make them work.
重新绘制了
Redoes the
对你来说有多有趣。
how fun that was for you.
哦，那又回到了
Oh, it was Back to
老的，哦
old Oh
天啊。
my god.
是的。
Yeah.
但确实，你说得对。
But it was but you're right.
是必要的。
Was necessary.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
有几次我做不到，我就说好吧。
And there's a few times when I couldn't do it, and I just said, okay.
这字体要设成两点大，没人能看得清。
This is gonna be two point font, and they're gonna no one's gonna be able to read it.
没关系。
That's fine.
对。
Yeah.
有时候我会分享整个内容，然后展示一个细节，嗯。
There's times when I would share the whole thing, and then I would show a detail Mhmm.
放大。
In large.
但是，是的，不，我必须认真思考，这是一本有特定尺寸的书。
But, yeah, no, I I had to really think this is a book with certain dimensions.
它印在纸上，或者可能是电子书，但你知道，阅读时你不应该需要放大PDF的字体。
It's on paper, or maybe it's an ebook, but still it's you know, you you shouldn't have to zoom in on the on the on the PDF when you're reading it.
这意味着我真的得回头去重新处理很多旧项目，确实如此。
And that meant really going back and and doing a lot of a lot of work on old projects for sure.
是的。
Yeah.
我另一个想特别问一下关于这本书的问题是，书里的那些故事。
The other question I wanted to ask specifically about the book was on the stories in here.
比如，我觉得这正是我能够从头到尾轻松读完的原因，因为整本书几乎贯穿了各种故事。
So, like, there are think this is why it was kinda easy for me to read it cover to cover because there are stories sort of almost kinda throughout.
并不是每个章节都以一个故事开头，然后才进入内容。
It's not like every chapter leads with a story then you get into the content.
而是这些故事贯穿了整本书的始终。
It's like that story is the through line throughout the the the the whole book.
还有一个关于罗宾逊的有趣故事，我觉得是那个Yeah。
And there's a really interesting story about maybe Robinson, I think, of the Yeah.
就是罗宾逊。
It's the Robinson.
没错。
Yep.
或者你有没有特别喜欢的故事？
There or is there a story that you still really like?
比如，有没有哪一个故事对你来说是最喜欢的？
Like, is there one that really, like, for you is the is the one that, you know, is your favorite?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得孩子们，你知道的。
I think kids, you know.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为加拿大北部的地图绘制可能是我最喜爱的。
Well, I think that the mapping of Northern Canada is probably my favorite.
是的。
Yeah.
你说得对，书中确实有一些内容会前后出现。
So you're right that there's there's some that kind of come and go throughout the book.
罗宾逊是一个在许多章节中出现的角色。
Robinson is a character that appears in many chapters.
而加拿大北部因纽特人的地图绘制则是一个更独立完整的内容。
And the the Inuit mapping in Northern Canada, that's a more self contained thing.
但我真的很喜欢它，有几个原因。
But I I really like it for a few reasons.
首先，我认为关于原住民地图绘制的学术研究很多。
One, I think that there's there's a lot of scholarship about indigenous mapping.
当我深入研究这个著名案例的具体细节时，我得出的结论，我认为，与从抽象角度思考原住民制图时大不相同。
And when I zoom into that particular the particularities of that rather famous case, the conclusions I reach, I think, are are pretty different than if I think about indigenous mapping in a kind of abstract sense.
我也觉得这些地图本身非常酷，尽管如我在书中所说，这并不是他们原本有意为之的。
I also think just the maps are super cool in a way if it wasn't as I say in the book, was not actually, like, intentional.
我认为制作这些地图的人其实并不喜欢它们，我知道那些制图者。
I think the people who made I know the people who made the maps kinda didn't like them.
他们对这些地图有点歉意，总觉得‘嗯，没完全成功’。
They were kind of apologetic about, you know, oh, it didn't quite work.
但我觉得，正是这种‘不成功’的方式特别有意思。
It's but and but think that the way that it didn't work is really interesting.
他们对因纽特猎人进行了大量访谈，了解他们在作为猎人的一生中，曾在哪些地方发现过某些野生动物。
So they were mapping they did all these interviews with Inuit hunters about where they had found certain species of of of wildlife in their their life as a hunter.
然后他们将所有这些访谈整合起来，形成一些小块区域，比如‘因纽特人曾经猎捕驯鹿、雷鸟或其他动物的地方’。
And then they combined all those interviews to make little blobs of, you know, here's where the Inuit have hunted caribou or ptarmigan or whatever it is.
接着他们把这些区域叠加在地图上，以展示在有记录的记忆或亲身经历中，因纽特人曾经使用过的区域。
And then they layered them on a map to show, you know, areas that had been used by the Inuit in recorded memory or in lived memory.
我觉得特别有趣的是，这些地图彻底混淆了陆地与水域之间的边界。
And what I find so interesting was that the maps are completely make a hash of the the the boundary between land and water.
是的。
Yeah.
这让人感觉很特别，虽然有点令人不安，但又有一种奇妙的美感。
It's really hard to sit like it's a it's a it's a it's kind of a nerve in a in a in a kind of nice way.
对吧？
Right?
它并不像一张传统地图那样清晰地展示出可识别的区域，然后根据因纽特人发现某些物种的地点进行着色——这些数据实际上淹没了背景信息。
Like, it doesn't work as a map that shows here are the you know, here's the recognizable map, and I'm gonna shade it in based on where, Inuit have if if you have found certain species, the the data kind of obliterates the background.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这在因纽特人与加拿大政府就建立不同野生动物管理机构、重新定义包含冰面与水域而非仅限陆地的领土概念的谈判中，具有重要的政治意义。
And I thought it's so interesting how important that was politically in the negotiations that the Inuit had with the Canadian government for actually creating different kind of wildlife management agencies, for having a different understanding of territory that included ice and water, not just land.
因此，这种制图方式确实产生了切实的影响。
So there was a way in which the the mapping really made a real difference.
并不是因为主题，也不是因为制图者的信念，而是因为图形本身使得以某种方式看待世界变得更容易，而以更传统的方式看待世界则变得更困难，这一点确实产生了很大影响。
Not because, again, not because of the topics, not because of the sort of conviction of the map makers, but because the graphics themselves made it easier to see the world in a certain way and harder to see the world in the more traditional way, and that that really had a lot of a lot of traction.
但最终，我也只是觉得，那些列表中的地图非常有趣且很酷。
But in the end, I also just think, like, I think the maps in that eye list are really interesting and really cool.
是的。
Yeah.
因为
For
当然。
sure.
因为它们并没有做你可能会认为这类地图通常会做的事情。
Because, because they're not they they don't do the thing that you you might you know, maps like that would usually do.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
它们模糊了陆地和水域之间的边界，字面意义上的边界。
They they they blur the the the board I mean, literally the border between land and water.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
书中还有其他几个类似的例子，我特别想到的是NASA的云层覆盖数据集，嗯。
And and there's a few other examples of like like that in the book of there's the one in particular I'm thinking of this NASA dataset of cloud cover Mhmm.
比如云层覆盖，我记得是2009年10月左右。
Where there's just a you you take cloud cover, I think it was October 2009, whatever it was.
有趣的是，某些大陆与海洋之间的边界非常清晰分明。
And it's really interesting how certain boundaries between continents and oceans are really crisp and really clear.
你在数据中能看到这些边界，而其他的则完全模糊不清。
You see them in the data, and others completely are are blurred.
这简直是一种看待世界的不同方式，真的很有意思。
And it's just like I I think it's such a really interesting way of thinking about the world in a different way.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以并不是说，我只是在制作那些海岸线完全看不见的地图。
So it's not like I'm only making maps where the, you know, coastlines are invisible.
但我确实认为，看到那些即使颠覆了某些关于背景可读性的固有观念依然运作良好的地图，是非常有趣的。
But I do think that that's it's really interesting to see maps that work really well even when they obliterate certain taken for granted ideas about, you know, background legibility.
我们必须保留海岸线，因为每张地图都必须有海岸线。
We have to have the coastlines because every map has to have coastlines.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我本想就此结束，但我还有一个问题想问你，因为我觉得听众们对您使用的工具很感兴趣。
I would end there, but I do have one more question for you because I think I think listeners are interested on the tool sets that you use.
你已经提到过Illustrator和ArcGIS，但你的工具箱是什么？当你为学术期刊制作地图，和为制作海报、装置或其他东西时，你的工具箱会有什么不同吗？
You already mentioned Illustrator and and ArcGIS, but what is your tool kit, and how does your tool kit maybe differ for, I've just gotta make this map for, you know, this academic journal versus I'm gonna go in and make a a poster, an installation or something.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
我认为，像我这样根据每个软件的优势分别使用多种工具，而不是完全依赖某一个，应该不是个例。
So I I I don't think I'm alone in in in, you know, touting the virtues of using lots of different programs each for what they're good for rather than going all in for for one thing.
对吧？
Right?
我曾经做过一张完全用ArcGIS制作的地图，结果糟透了。
I think I made, I've made one map ever that was just in ArcGIS, and it was terrible.
那张地图太差了。
It was terrible.
我当时就想，我再也不这么做了。
I was like, I'm never doing this again.
那太难了，而且看起来很糟糕。
It was so hard, and it looks like crap.
所以，是的，我使用文本编辑器。
So, yeah, I use text editors.
我其实有几个不同的文本编辑器。
I have a couple different text editors actually.
有一个我有一段时间没用了。
There's one that, I haven't used in a while.
它叫JuJu Edit，它实际上不会把文件加载到内存中。
It was called JuJu Edit where it doesn't actually load the file into memory.
所以你可以打开一个两吉字节的文件，然后只处理头部信息，例如。
So you can open like a two gigabyte file and just, you know, just deal with the headers, for example.
是的。
Yeah.
然后我还有其他更传统的文本文件。
And then I have other text files that are more traditional.
它们会把整个文件加载到内存中。
They go the whole thing into memory.
我用电子表格做很多不同的事情，不只是做表格相关的工作。
I use, spreadsheets, for lots of different things, not just for spreadsheet stuff.
但就像我们在录音前说的，我有时会用电子表格来连接Python代码。
But, as I was saying to you before we started recording, I've used the spreadsheets sometimes to couple together Python code.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后我会从电子表格中复制粘贴到Python代码框里。
And then I cut and paste from the spreadsheet into the Python box.
我使用ArcGIS。
I use ArcGIS.
我使用Illustrator。
I use Illustrator.
我使用Photoshop。
I use Photoshop.
然后把这些东西放到网上，是的，我不敢说自己是JavaScript或D3的专家，但我确实做过不少这类事情。
And then putting this stuff on the web, yeah, I I wouldn't say I'm an expert on JavaScript or d three, but I've, you know, done enough of those kinds of things.
以前用过Flash。
Back in the day, used Flash.
这涉及很多不同的东西。
It's a whole bunch of different things.
我会说，通常我会从文本编辑器开始。
I would say it's pretty typical to say, you know, I'll I'll I'll start it with a text editor.
我会用电子表格做一些处理。
I'll do some stuff with the spreadsheet.
我会把它导入ArcGIS。
I'll take it to into ArcGIS.
不过我觉得关键是，我会尽快把数据从ArcGIS里导出来，因为归根结底它并不是一个图形设计软件。
I think the thing though is I try to get it out of ArcGIS as quickly as I can, because it's just not a graphics program in the end.
是的。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，如果我要做图层叠加或透明效果，就会用 Photoshop。
And so I will I will take things if I'm gonna do layering or transparency, that goes into Photoshop.
最终的配色通常都在 Photoshop 里完成，因为那里的颜色选择器更好用。
Final colors happen usually in Photoshop because the color pickers are just better.
我可以实时看到调整效果。
I can see the real time adjustments.
然后我会把文件从 Photoshop 导入 Illustrator，进行文字和线条的处理之类的。
And then I take it from Photoshop into Illustrator where I do the text, line work, that kind of thing.
好的。
Okay.
但也有不少项目我根本不用 ArcGIS，直接手绘就行。
But there's plenty of projects where I don't use ArcGIS at all, and I'm just drawing it.
我会导入一张现成的地图，在 Illustrator 里描线，然后删掉背景之类的。
So I will bring in an existing map, trace over it in Illustrator, and then, you know, delete the background, things like that.
所以，是的。
So, yeah.
我认为ArcGIS非常强大，非常有用。
I I I think ArcGIS is super powerful, super helpful.
我经常使用它。
I use it all the time.
有些事情如果没有它我根本做不到。
There's things that I could not do without it.
对。
Right.
但我认为人们常常会对我不使用ArcGIS制作的应用感到惊讶，是的。
But, I think people are often surprised by how the the kinds of apps I've made without it at all Yeah.
而且我发现，我用得越少，结果反而越满意，因为那时我真正思考的是我想展示什么，而不是如何与数据作斗争。
And how I really that the less I can use it, I think the happier I am with the results because then I'm really thinking about what am I trying to to to show rather than how am I wrestling with the the data.
明白了。
Gotcha.
明白了。
Gotcha.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Great.
在让你走之前，显然大家应该读一下这本书。
Well, before I let you go, obviously, people should read the book.
如果他们有问题想问你，或者想请你去演讲、授课或提供咨询，他们应该去哪里找你？或者只是想问你一个问题？
If they have questions for you, if they want you to come give a talk or teach class or consult, where, or they just wanna ask you a question, where can they where can they find it?
他们怎么才能联系到你？
Where can they get ahold of
是的。
Yeah.
对。
So, yeah.
这些地图大多在我的网站radicalcartography.net上。
Most of these maps are on my website radicalcartography.net.
但我，你知道，我在耶鲁大学教书。
But I I you know, I'm I'm I teach at Yale.
你可以搜索我。
You can Google me.
我有教师简介。
I've got a faculty bio.
我的邮箱地址就在那里。
There's my email address is there.
我的收件箱是开放的。
My inbox is is open.
所以我是个非常依赖谷歌的人。
So I'm a very Google little person.
而且，我很喜欢收到人们的来信。
And, I love I love hearing from people.
而且，我认为你在书中可以看到，很多地图项目都是源于人们给我发邮件。
And, one of the things that I think, you you can see in the in the book, is a lot of the the mapping projects Yeah.
人们给我发邮件，说他们对这个感兴趣。
Started by people emailing me Yeah.
他们说：我对这个感兴趣。
Saying, I'm interested in this.
你能给我展示一下这个吗？
Can you show me this?
你能给我一个不同的版本吗？
Can you give me a different version of that?
所以我认为这些互动非常有帮助，也很有启发性，我觉得我从这些互动中获得的，不亚于我独自研究的成果。
So I I think that's really helpful and really generative, and I think I've gotten as much from those kinds of interactions as I have just from stuff on my own.
所以是的。
So yeah.
我完全欢迎这样的交流。
I I totally welcome it.
太棒了。
Awesome.
比尔，非常感谢你参加这个节目。
Bill, thanks so much for coming on the show.
真的很感激。
Really appreciate it.
我非常喜欢这本书，祝贺你，再次感谢你参加这个节目。
Really love the book and congrats on it and and thanks again for for coming on.
谢谢你邀请我，约翰。
Well, John for having me.
这真是太好了。
This was great.
谢谢大家收听。
Thanks for tuning in everybody.
希望你们喜欢这一期节目。
Hope you enjoyed that episode.
希望你们喜欢比尔·兰金的这次访谈。
Hope you enjoyed that interview with Bill Rankin.
请在你购书的任何平台购买他的著作《激进制图学》。
Please check out his book, Radical Cartography, wherever you get books.
这真是一本很棒的读物。
It's really a great read.
正如我所说，我在新年那天从头到尾读完了它。
Like I said, I read it cover to cover on New Year's Day.
我来回切换，读了几章后，就去看《怪奇物语》的结局，然后又回到书上，再回到《怪奇物语》。
Flipped a little back and forth between reading a couple chapters, watching the end of Stranger Things, back to the book, back to Stranger Things.
我觉得这是一本好书，必须加入你的数据可视化藏书库。
I think it's a great book, a must add to your data visualization library.
这就是我今天要跟你们说的全部了。
That's all I got for you.
我再没什么要求要你们做了。
No more things for me to ask of you.
你知道我说的是什么意思。
You know what I mean by that.
那么，下次再见，这里是PolicyViz播客。
So until next time, this has been the PolicyViz Podcast.
非常感谢您的收听。
Thanks so much for listening.
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