谢丽尔·吴谈数据、艺术与可视化创新

欢迎回到PolicyViz播客。

Welcome back to the PolicyViz Podcast.

我是你们的主持人乔恩·施瓦比什，今天是第十一季的最后一集。

I'm your host, Jon Schwabish, for the final episode of season eleven of the show.

我期待着休息一下。

I am looking forward to a break.

如果你不知道的话，制作一档播客需要付出很多努力，所以我期待着几个月的休假。

If you don't know, it's a lot of work putting a podcast together, so I'm looking forward to a couple months off.

我有一个孩子即将上大学。

I've got one kid on her way to college.

我还有另一个孩子，我不知道他今年夏天会做什么，但我们正在安排中。

I've got another kid who well, I don't know what he's gonna be doing this summer, but we're working on that.

我非常期待这一季的最后一集。

I am very excited for this last episode of the season.

我邀请到了谢丽尔·吴，她是一位作家、艺术家、数据可视化创作者，样样精通。

I am joined by Shirley Wu, author, artist, data visualization creator, does all the things.

Shirley 除了其他身份外，还是与纳迪亚·布雷默合著《数据素描》的作者，但她最近还撰写了几篇关于数据可视化领域现状与未来发展的文章。

And Shirley as among other things is the co author of Data Sketches with Nadia Bremmer, but she's also most recently written a few posts on the field of data visualization where we are and where we are going as a field.

特别是，她探讨了该领域的创新问题。

In particular she's written about innovation in the field.

这个领域是否已经陷入创新停滞？

The field has the field sort of plateaued in our innovation?

许多其他人也对此作出了回应和评论，当然也包括我自己。

And many others have written some responses and reactions to this including of course myself.

阿里·托尔本撰写并录制了一段视频，与威尔·蔡斯等人一起讨论了这个问题。

Ali Torben has written has has recorded a video with some with Will Chase and some others.

几周前曾做客节目的莫特·斯特纳也写了一篇回应，因此 Shirley 和我聊了聊，决定录制一期播客来探讨这些问题，因为我觉得，像这样零散的博客文章，如果能转化为实际对话，会更容易理解，也更有趣。

Mort Steffner who was on the show last few weeks also wrote a reply and so Shirley and I got to talking and decided to record a podcast episode about these issues because I think you know having these you know sort of one off blog posts really is easier and I think more interesting when we have these actual conversations.

我认为我的观点与 Shirley 稍有不同，但你们在本次对话中会听到，我们最终都表达了对数据可视化领域现状与未来走向的看法。

And my perspective I think is a little bit different than than Shirley's, but I think what you'll hear in this conversation is we get to a place where we both sort of explain our feelings on the data visualization field where we are and where we are going.

我也特意将本集放在本季的最后一期，以与上周爱德华·塔夫特的那期节目形成一种良好的平衡。

I'm also placing this episode at the very end of this season to sort of give a nice balance to last week's episode with Edward Tufte.

我们回顾一下数据可视化现代时代的起点，以及与这一领域的领军人物探讨未来的发展方向，她极大地拓展了我们对数据可视化的理解，不仅限于电脑屏幕上的数字世界，也延伸到物理空间。 Shirley，你重返校园，投身更多艺术和动手实践，这一切都根植于数据和数据可视化。

Sort of where we were, kind of where we started in sort of this modern era of data visualization, and thoughts on where we are going with one of the leaders in the field who has done so much to broaden how we think about visualizing data both in the digital realm on our computers but also the physical realm and as you're here, Shirley going back to school and doing more art, more hands on work all rooted in data and data visualization.

我希望你们喜欢本季节目，我们探讨了人们与数据互动和创造的多种方式，人们如何用数据与他人交流，以及我们现代工具的发展，还有人工智能如何逐渐渗透到我们的工作中。

So I hope you've enjoyed this season of the show covered a lot of ground covered a lot of different ways in which people are interacting and creating data ways in which people are engaging others with data and of course our modern tool sets and where artificial intelligence is sort of poking its head into our work.

如果你这个夏天有空——当然，如果你在地球的另一端，那可能是冬天——我建议你去听听过去大约十一季的节目。

If you have some time this summer or winter of course if you are on the other side of the planet, I'd encourage you to check out the last eleven or so seasons of the show.

那里有很多精彩的内容，我相信能帮助你成为更出色、更高效的数据传播者。

A lot of great content in there I think, to help you become a better and better and more effective data communicator.

当然，如果我不做最后的呼吁，那就太遗憾了。

And, of course, I would be remiss if I didn't do the one last call out.

如果你能抽出几秒钟、几分钟的时间，在我休假期间，为节目在你最喜欢的播客平台评分或留言评价，无论是 iTunes、Spotify，甚至是 Zencast；或者如果你在 YouTube 上观看，也请订阅这个频道。

If you can, if you could just take just a couple seconds, a couple minutes this summer while I'm off, if you could just rate or review the show on your favorite podcast provider, be it iTunes, Spotify, even on Zencast or if you're watching this on YouTube, subscribe to that channel.

如果你不想做这些，但愿意在亚马逊、Goodreads 或你最喜欢的图书销售平台为我的书籍评分或写评价，我也非常感激。

If you don't wanna do any of that and you'd like to rate or review my books on Amazon or Goodreads or your favorite bookseller, I'd really appreciate that as well.

希望你们未来几个月过得愉快。

So I hope you have a great few months.

我期待在今年秋天为您带来更多精彩的节目。

I look forward to bringing you more great episodes this fall.

在那之前，以下是我在PolicyViz播客上与Shirley Wu的对话。

So until then, here is my conversation with Shirley Wu on the PolicyViz Podcast.

好的。

Okay.

现在我一开场就笑了。

Now I'm starting by laughing.

嗨，Shirley。

Hi, Shirley.

你怎么样？

How are how are you?

见到你真是太好了。

It's so great to see you.

见到你真的很开心。

It is great to see you.

我们一开始就会一直笑个不停。

We're just gonna start by just we'll just laugh the whole time.

见到你真的太好了。

And it's really good to see you.

我们太久没见了。

It's been far too long.

我的意思是

I mean

是的。

Yes.

我们很久没见了。

A long time since we're

是的。

Yeah.

时间太久了，我们甚至都不确定以前是否真正面对面聊过，还是只通过消息和线上交流过。

It's so long that we're actually not sure if we ever talked face to face before versus just as just versus just messages and being online.

对。

Right.

而且是在网上。

And being online.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，那我……我不知道。

Well, that's I I don't I don't know.

我觉得那里可能藏着一些悲伤。

I think that that's probably there's probably some sadness dipped in there somewhere.

但我们现在在聊天，这很好。

But we're talking now, so that's good.

是的。

Yes.

我们有很多话要说。

We've got a lot to talk about.

我一直在关注你，看你最近做的那些非常酷的事情。

You've been doing some very cool stuff over the last just following you, just watching the stuff that you've been doing.

过去几周，你写了一系列博客文章，似乎引发了这个领域长期以来缺失的一场大规模讨论，大家都纷纷发表意见，这非常有趣，因为我确实错过了这种全员参与的氛围，所以我很开心，我们可以聊聊这个。

And then last few weeks, I guess, or so, you've written this, like, series of blog posts and sort of, I think sort of kicked off something that's been lacking in the field for a while, which is like the community having a big discussion, which has been super fun, because I kind of missed that of everybody weighing in, so that's been fun, so we can talk about that.

那我们从哪里开始聊呢？我不知道你希望从哪儿入手，但你就说说你现在在做什么吧。

So why don't we talk about, like, I don't know where you wanna pick up from, but, like, yeah, like, where are you?

你最近在忙些什么？

What are you up to?

过去几年你都做了些什么？

What have you been doing the last, like, couple years?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

首先，非常感谢你邀请我来参加。

Well, first, thank you so much for inviting me on.

非常感谢你阅读了我的博客文章，做出回应，并邀请我来参与这次讨论。

Thank you so much for, one, reading the blog post, then responding to them, and then inviting me on so that we can have a discussion.

我

I

嗯，你好。

guess hello.

我叫雪莉。

My name is Shirley.

我最初是一名从事数据可视化的软件工程师。

I started out as a software engineer making data visualizations.

我深深迷上了制作庞大、复杂、色彩丰富且充满欢乐的数据可视化作品。

Got really, really into making very big, elaborate, you know, colorful, joyful data visualizations.

我想我在职业生涯中花了大约四五年时间做这件事。

I think I spent a good, like, four or five years of my career doing that.

而过去几年，我想我和很多人一样，在疫情期间感到精疲力尽。

And then the last couple years, I guess I got really burnt out like many people during the pandemic.

我想做些不同的事情，于是回到了研究生院。

I wanted to do something different and went back to grad school.

所以我回到了一个艺术与科技项目，主要是因为在网络、数字屏幕领域深耕数据可视化十年后，我对如何将这些数据故事从屏幕中带出、融入物理世界产生了浓厚兴趣。

So I went back to a program for an art and technology mainly because after spending a decade making data visualizations for the web, for digital for the screen, I got really interested in what it will look like to take these data stories and bring them out of the screen and into the physical world.

我非常着迷于，比如，如果我们不仅能用眼睛、甚至耳朵去体验数据和故事，那意味着什么？如果我们还能用触觉或嗅觉去感知它们，又意味着什么？

And I got really fascinated about, like, what does it mean if we can kind of, you know, proceed kind of experience the data and the stories with not just our eyes and maybe our ears, but what does it mean if we can also feel them or smell them?

我还没尝试过味觉，但我认为那也会非常酷。

And I've never gone into the taste, but I think that would, you know, also be really cool.

所以这就是我回到研究生院的原因。

And so that's why I went back to grad school.

在研究生院期间，那是一段非常愉快的时光。

And so in grad school, it was a very fun time.

我学到了很多硬件和数字制造方面的知识。

I learned a lot of, like, hardware and and and digital fabrication.

但我认为，我那段经历中最有趣和最有趣的是，那是一所艺术学院。

But I think what was the most interesting and fun about my time there is that it was an art school.

这让我开始深入思考，艺术到底是什么？

And so it got me thinking a lot about, like, what is art?

艺术的价值在哪里？

What is the value of art?

它真的需要有用途和价值吗？

Does it even need to have a use and a value?

那么，用数据来创作艺术意味着什么？

And and then what does it mean to make art with data?

毕业后，我为《Nightingale》撰写了一篇文章，刊登在他们关于情感的特辑中，论证了物理形态的数据体验对于那些我们难以通过屏幕讲述的数据故事来说，效果非常好。

And so once I graduated, I wrote an article for the Nightingale on their emotions in their, like, emotions volume, kind of making an argument that physical data experiences are very, very good for the kind of data stories that we really struggle to tell via screen.

这些故事可能涉及不完整、缺失、混乱甚至非常情绪化数据。

And those might be the ones with, like, incomplete data or missing data or imperfect messy or even, like, very emotional ones.

从那以后，我写了你提到的那三篇博客文章，于是就有了今天的对话。

And then from there, I went and wrote those three blog posts you were talking about, and here we are.

这就像，这就像

It was like a it was

就像在所有酷炫的东西中间留下了一个巨大的空白。

like a big gap in, like, all the cool stuff.

只是为了让那些还没看过的人知道。

Like, just so people know if they haven't seen.

所以我会去看，因为当你刚开始读研的时候，我不记得是在哪儿看到你分享这些内容的，但你当时在做一些把代码变成实体事物的项目，我记得还看过你几个作品，其中有一个，我不知道该不该叫它机器人，但那是一个会做点什么的装置。

So, like, I would watch because because when you started grad school, I don't remember where where I saw you sharing this stuff, but like, you were doing stuff with like, you know, you were like coding stuff into physical things, and then like, I think there was like, yeah, I saw a couple of your project, and there was one that was like, you had built, I don't know if I'd call it a robot, but it was some sort of machine that was like doing something.

我看着这些作品，曾经有一个想法。

And I'm watching these, and I had a thought at one point.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

无论你是在学校里，有没有人像那样说，‘那是Shirley Wu。’

Whether you're in school, and there are people like, that's Shirley Wu.

你们喜欢那边那个Shirley吗？

Do you guys like that Shirley over there?

因为那是在Data Sketches发布之后，我当时就想，会不会有人觉得，哇，这简直像明星一样。

Like, because that was after data sketches came out, and I kinda was like, I wonder if there are people who are like, woah, there's like celebrity.

不。

No.

我会说，是的。

Like, I would have been like, yeah.

那个‘是的’。

That yeah.

我想，可能只有少数人曾在新闻机构工作过，或者已经做过很多生成艺术相关的事情，因此了解我做过的东西。

There was, I think, maybe a handful of people that had, like, worked in newsrooms or, like, had done, like, you know, like, had already done a lot of generative art things that kind of knew what I had worked on.

但他们都非常友善。

But they were really nice.

我也想象，艺术学院和你所经历的商业、金融、计算机科学、经济学等学科氛围截然不同。

I also imagine, like, art school being very different than, like, you know, you clearly went through, like, business, finance, computer science, me economics.

我想，仅仅是氛围

Like, I would guess that, like, just the atmosphere

就非常不同。

is very different.

这可不是参加考试。

It's not like take a test.

对吧？

Right?

就是每天尽情发挥你的创造力。

Like, just unleash your creativity every day.

是的。

Yes.

所以我本科毕业时，累得不行，心想我再也不会回学校了。

So when I graduated my undergrad, I was so burnt out that, like, I was like, I will never go back to school ever again.

我拒绝再参加任何考试。

I refuse to take another test.

你要是在我面前放一份试卷，我就会被触发。

Put a test in front of me, and I am triggered.

所以我也得说一下，我上的那个项目叫ITP，是在纽约大学。

And so I should also say that the program I went to, it's called ITP, and it's at New York University.

这并不是我说的艺术学校。

It's not it's not I wouldn't say it's art school.

它更像是某种奇怪的东西，我觉得吧。

It's like a weird like, I think okay.

我不确定所有去过ITP的人都会同意我的说法。

I don't know if everybody that went to ITP would agree with me when I say this.

但对我来说，它感觉就像一群来自极客和创客空间的人共同打造了一所艺术学校——它有艺术学校的元素，但同时也更偏向科技和设计。

But to me, it feels like if a bunch of people from, like, Hacker and Makerspaces went and made art school, it's like got elements of art school, but, like, it's more also tech and design.

是的。

Yeah.

但最棒的部分，也是我最喜欢的一点，就是没有成绩。

But the the best part, what I loved about it was that it was, one, no grades.

所以我可以去那里，纯粹因为热爱学习而学习。

And and so I could go in and just learn for the pure love of learning.

热爱学习。

Love learning.

其次，没有考试。

And then two, no tests.

完全是项目制的。

It was all project based.

就像

Like

对。

Right.

全是最终项目。

It was all final projects.

所以非常实用且注重动手实践。

And so it was very practical and hands on.

这正是我喜爱它的原因。

And that's what I loved about it.

是的。

Yeah.

这正是我回去的唯一原因，因为没有考试，也没有成绩。

And that's the only reason why I went back because no tests and no grades.

听起来像是理想中的学习方式。

Sounds like the dream.

只是为了学习。

Just learning.

为了学习而学习，这太棒了。

For the sake of learning, that's amazing.

好的。

Okay.

所以现在，我想谈谈那篇博客文章、创新，以及这个领域的发展方向等等，但我还想问一下。

So now, and I and I, of course, wanna talk about the the the blog post and innovation and and where their field is and where it's going and all that, but I did wanna ask.

所以现在听起来你正在结合你拥有的这两项技能。

So now it sounds like you're sort of combining these two skills that you have.

有时候，或者两次都是，你在做项目、办展览，还有一些即将进行的活动，同时你也在做类似计算机客户端的工作，像是Shirley Wu那样的数据可视化创作。

Sometimes or maybe both times you're like building stuff, you're doing some exhibitions, you have a couple things coming up that we want talk about, and then you're also doing like computer client, like sort of like data sketches, Shirley Wu like work.

所以，你有没有找到那个让你感到开心的中间地带呢？

So is that so have you like found the middle ground that you like your happy space now?

哦，还远着呢。

Oh, completely not yet.

我现在就像一只在东京到处乱跑的受惊的鸡。

I'm I'm a I'm like a frazzled chicken running around Tokyo right now.

事情是这样的，在我研究生毕业后的头半年里，我经历了一次小小的生存危机，不知道自己该做什么。

So what happened was the year the, like, half a year, within the first half year after I graduated grad school, I had, like, a mini existential crisis of, like, what am I gonna do?

我现在算个艺术家了吗？

Am I, like, an artist now?

我到底算什么？

Am I what am I?

我又要回去接客户项目了吗？

Am I doing client work again?

后来我找到的平衡是，我之所以回学校读书，是因为我想做点不一样的事。

And then kind of the balance I figured out was, like, I I went back to grad school because I wanted to do something different.

因为有了这段休息，我意识到自己真的很想念数据可视化、我们的社群和客户工作。

And then because I got to have that break, I I realized I kind of really missed, you know, dataviz, our community, client work.

是的。

Yeah.

于是我开始想，如果我能一半一半地做呢？

And so I decided, like, what if I can do half and half?

比如，我能不能一边接客户项目，一边仍然保持一点在这个世界里的联系？

Like, what if I can do client work and stay still stay, like, a little bit, like, one foot in that world?

因为我觉得我们依然在进行着非常令人兴奋的事情。

Because I think we still have a very we still have very exciting things going on.

对。

Yeah.

但同时，我也非常着迷于我一直在创作的艺术作品以及我在其中探索的内容。

And then but, also, I'm so fascinated by kind of the art that I've been making and what I'm exploring with that.

于是我就开始想，我该如何推动这个新的艺术方向呢？

And so then it became like, well, how do I facilitate this new art thing?

然后我意识到，我艺术创作灵感最充沛的地方是在日本和东亚。

And then I realized that where I'm most artistically inspired is in Japan and in East Asia.

所以去年，我在东京成立了一家公司，现在我一年一半时间住在东京，一半时间住在旧金山。

And so last year, I made a company here in Tokyo, and now I live half the year in Tokyo and half the year in San Francisco.

当我身处东京时，我就做艺术创作。

And when I'm in Tokyo, I do art.

当我身处旧金山时，我就做客户项目。

When I'm in San Francisco, I do client work.

但结果发现，一加一并不等于二。

But turns out, one plus one is not two.

它更像是五百，我还在努力摸索，如何让这两件事同时在我一个人身上顺利运转。

It's, like, 500, and I'm still trying to figure out, like, how to make both work at the same time with me, just one person.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道，我完全理解那种感觉。

I know that I know that feeling.

是的。

Yeah.

成千上万件事。

Like a million things.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但这真的非常令人兴奋，我能看出这两方面会相互影响。

But that is that is really exciting, and I can could see how they will kind of the two sides as it were will sort of inform each other.

我希望如此。

I hope so.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

有一天。

One day.

我希望如此。

I hope so.

一

One

天。

day.

你。

You.

有一天。

One day.

那就是那就是

That's the That's the

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

所以，让我们来看看这些博客文章吧，因为这正是我们开始聊天的原因。

So so so let's so let's turn to these blog posts because that's why we sort of like started chatting.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且现在很多人都在谈论这个，因为你启动了这个可以说是更宏大的深度系列。

So and lots of people have been talking about this now that you sort of started this like, I would say like a bigger think series.

对吧？

Right?

这些可不是你那种大约500字的短博客文章。

So these are these are not sort of your like, you know, 500 word blog posts.

这些是深度思考型文章，尤其是第二篇，背后投入了大量研究，因为你采访了很多人。

These are like big think with like, especially the second one, like a lot of research like went in behind that because you talk to a lot of people.

所以我想，对于还没读过的人，我只想强调一下，他们当然应该去读一读。

And so I guess like just the just like the the part I think just to pull out is like and for folks who haven't read them, they obviously should.

也许在听这个播客的其余部分之前，先读一下这些文章。

Maybe read them before you listen to the rest of this podcast.

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

我们会看看我们会

We're gonna find We'll

看看吧，我们会看情况如何。

see we'll see how yeah.

我们会看看这场对话会怎么发展。

We'll see we'll see how the conversation goes.

我们会进行这场对话，然后在我录制片头时，会告诉听众你们是否应该先读这些文章。

We'll do this conversation, and then when I record the intro, I'll let folks know whether you should be reading them or not.

好的。

Okay.

听起来不错。

Sounds great.

等等。

So hold on.

好的。

Okay.

所以在第二篇文章中，这正是我想让我们开始讨论的关键点：你写道，'在网页上讲述数据驱动故事的技艺已经停滞不前。'

So So in the second post, this is the this is the key thing I just wanted to get us started was that you wrote, quote, the craft of of telling data informed stories on the web has plateaued.

然后你谈到了对滚动叙事那种爱恨交织的情感，接着你采访了乔治亚、洛皮、斯特凡以及其他许多人，了解他们所看到的现象和当前的发展情况。

And then you sort of went into kind of a love hate relationship with scrollytelling, and then and then sort of, you know, talk to, you know, Georgia, Loopy, and more Stefan, and a whole bunch of other people about sort of what they see and what's going on.

所以我不确定。

So so I don't know.

这里面有很多内容需要梳理，也许我们先从你的主要观点开始，然后你我再稍微争论一下。

There's a lot to unpack, and maybe we just start with, like, your main thoughts, and then you and I can fight it out for a little bit.

是的。

Like Yeah.

我们会解决所有问题。

We'll solve we'll solve all the problems.

比如

Like

我们会解决所有问题。

We'll solve all of it.

是的。

So Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我读第二个的时候真的觉得特别有趣。

I'm I'm that second one was really fun to read.

特别感谢我的编辑艾米莉·巴罗内，是她建议我联系所有我们接触过的人，因为我原本只想从自己的角度来写。

A quick shout out and credit to my editor, Emily Barone, for even suggesting that I reach out to everybody that we'd reached out to because I was just gonna write about it from my perspective.

她说，这可是个非常重要的行业观察。

And she's like, well, this is a really big industry observation.

也许你应该联系她，是她帮我促成了这件事。

Maybe you should reach out to and she helped me make that happen.

是的。

Yeah.

但这个想法在我脑海中酝酿了两三年了。

But this is a thought that's been brewing in my head for, like, two or three years now.

我想这最早是在我帮忙筛选2022年‘信息之美’奖的初选名单时开始的。

And I think it first started happening when was helping look through the shortlist for the 2022 information is beautiful awards.

我当时就觉得，这些作品都很精美、执行得也很到位，但没有一个特别突出。

And I was like, oh, these are all really beautiful and well executed, but also nothing is standing out.

我想我当时是在帮忙把初选名单缩减到前三名。

I think I was helping call the shortlist down to the the top three.

我们当时在努力给它们排个名次。

And we were, like, trying to rank them.

那一年我有点难以抉择，因为所有作品都很好，内容也很出色。

And I had a little bit of a harder time that year because everything felt they were and the content was great.

内容和故事都很好。

Like, the content and the stories were great.

但从视觉角度看，它们开始显得非常模板化。

But from a visual perspective, they were starting to feel very templated.

那时我开始想，等等。

And that was when I started being like, wait.

等等。

Hold on.

滚动叙事已经存在了大约七年，或者六五年，现在有六年了。

Scrollytelling has been a thing for, like, seven years now or six five, six years now.

而且

And

我当初对滚动叙事的出现感到非常兴奋，但自那以后，还有什么像滚动叙事那样对行业产生巨大影响的东西吗？

what was because I was so excited when scrollytelling became a thing, but then what what has there been anything else since then that has been as industry shifting as scrollytelling?

我一时想不起来。

And I just drew a blank.

因此，这成为了这篇博客文章开始成形的起点。

And so that was kind of the starting point of where of where this blog post started to take shape.

而最终促使我决定写这篇文章的决定性因素是，是的。

And then kind of the, like, nail, I guess, in the coffin of, like, why I decided to write it was Yeah.

当我最喜爱的常客客户之一时，我最终只给他们交付了折线图、饼图和柱状图。

When my favorite one of my favorite repeat clients, I ended up delivering just a line chart, pie chart, and bar chart for them.

因为他们要求删除唯一一个定制设计的可视化元素，而我也完全同意，没有图例的话确实非常混乱，我并不怪他们要求删掉它。

And because they had asked to scrap the only, like, custom designed visual, which, you know, fully agree that without the legend, it was just so confusing, and I don't blame them to for asking to cut it out.

但我在过去两三年里观察到一种趋势——疫情前与疫情后，或者研究生入学前与毕业后，人们在面向受众或利益相关者时，对图表形式的探索意愿明显降低了，更倾向于使用保守的图表类型。

But just this kind of, like, decreased appetite I observed across, like, you know, two or three years of, like, pre pandemic versus post pandemic or at least, like, pre grad school versus post grad school of, like, people being less adventurous with the chart forms that they wanted to kinda, like, put in front of their audiences or stakeholders.

因此，我开始着手这个系列。

And then that's why I started working on the series.

而在撰写过程中，进一步推动我继续的是，我得承认，这个标题非常吸引点击。

And then I think what then motivated the series even more was when in the middle of working on I will admit, it's very clickbaity.

这个标题非常俏皮。

The title is very cheeky.

第二部分，标题写着：是什么扼杀了创新？

The part two The part two where it says, like, what killed innovation?

创新，我同意你的观点，乔恩。

Innovation is I agree with you, Jon.

创新并没有死亡。

Innovation is not dead.

但如果我用了别的标题，你会点击这篇帖子吗？

But would you have clicked on that post if I had written something else?

除此之外，我写了篇回复，心想：她根本不是在说创新已经死了。

Other than that, it's like, wrote I wrote my post a response, and I was like, she's really not arguing that innovation is dead.

她只是用了个吸引点击的标题。

She's click baity title.

那我该怎么办？

And so what do I do?

我该继续不知道吗？

Do I just keep don't know.

但不是这样的。

But like, no.

这是真的。

It's it's it's it's true.

而且你自己在帖子中也承认了。

The the and you admitted that in the post itself.

对，就是这样。

Like, it Yeah.

我认为这也充分说明了我们当前在网络上的处境。

Which which I think also is like, I think speaks a lot to where we are like in the web.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如何让人们去阅读内容。

Of like how do you get people to read things.

我觉得这很重要。

Like I think that that that's a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个更好的讨论话题。

That's a better discussion we can have.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

It is interesting.

疫情前后的差异确实有点意思，因为在疫情期间出现了大量图表和数据，很多人当时都说，我们的数据或数据可视化素养提高了。

It is a little interesting how there's like the pre post pandemic because there were so many graphs and data presented during the pandemic that I think a lot of people were saying like, oh, we're increasing data or data visualization literacy.

对吧？

Right?

我们看到了高门槛的等值区域图，也看到了直方图。

We saw like high barrier choropleth maps, and we saw histograms.

我们看到了所有这些图表类型，但听起来你的论点可能得出这样的结论，或者我不确定。

We saw all these graph types, but it sounds like would this be fair to say that sort of the outcome maybe of of your argument or or I'm not sure.

这么说吧，但这是不对的。

Put this, but, like, that's not true.

我们都以为这种情况正在发生，但当我们走出疫情后，却没人愿意买 choropleth map 了。

Like, we all thought that that was happening, but then, like, we got on the other side of the pandemic and, like, nobody wanted to buy varicoraplethmap.

看感染率和疫苗接种率没问题，但日常生活中就不想看了。

Like, it was fine to look at infections and vaccine rates, but, like, not when you're doing your day to day.

是的。

Yes.

实际上，我觉得在那篇创新文章中，我删掉了一部分，因为我觉得我们很多人都对疫情感到异常兴奋——用‘兴奋’这个词来形容疫情有点奇怪，但确实有一段时间我们觉得，是的。

And, actually, I think there might be have been, like, a part of a section of the the innovation article that I cut out where it was because I think it was I think a lot of us was real quite excited is a weird word to say about the pandemic, but there was a period where we were like, yeah.

就像你说的，我们以为数据素养会提升。

Like you said, we thought data literacy Yeah.

并且会持续提升。

Would increase and keep increasing.

对。

Right.

虽然我认为数据素养确实在大规模上得到了提升，但我认为这种提升只集中在非常特定的一类图表上，比如折线图。

And while I do think data literacy really increased at a massive scale, I think it only really increased for, like, a very certain set of charts, of the line charts.

然后我发现人们在解读对数图表方面变得非常熟练，这是因为过去，数据可视化还是一个非常小众的领域，我们吸引的都是那些愿意花时间阅读和理解的人，嗯。

And then I think people got really great at reading logarithmic is that it's because whereas before, a lot of people that were into data visualizations where we were such a niche, we were we were attracting people that were into, you know, like, spending the time and reading and Mhmm.

他们愿意花时间去研究，比如乔治亚州那些精美的设计，或者愿意花上半小时仔细琢磨图例和细节。

And figuring out, you know, like, Georgia's, like, gorgeous, you know, designs or, like, we were okay with, like, pouring over the keys and, like, spending thirty minutes on it.

但当它从一个小众兴趣转变为一种大众服务——姑且这么说吧——时，情况就不同了。

But I think when it shifted from a niche interest to something that is, a general public, for lack of a better word, public service.

是的。

Yeah.

它开始被那些对此并不感兴趣的人阅读。

It was being read by people whose that's not their interest.

他们只需要一个快速的、三十秒就能理解的信息，以便在日常生活中对这个他们并不一定想参与或深入了解的话题有所了解。

They just need, like, a quick thirty second thing that they can understand so that they can go about the rest of their day informed on this topic that they don't necessarily want to be involved or informed on, but is a need in their day to day.

因此，为了这个目的，最快捷的柱状图、折线图，或者他们已经会读的图表，就是最有效的，而且完全足够了。

And so it makes a lot of sense that, like, for that purpose, the quickest, like, bar chart, line chart, something that they already know how to read is what is the most effective and is and is, you know, more than enough.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你的博客文章中提到关于经济激励的一句话，非常有道理。

And there's a line from your blog post about, like, economic incentives, and it makes a lot of sense.

我完全同意，对于大多数使用场景来说，这套标准图表已经足够好了。

I fully agree with that, that for most use cases, the that standard set is more than good enough.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我不想改变那个像BuzzFeed那样吸引点击的标题。

I I so I don't wanna change the BuzzFeedy click baity title.

但我觉得听你这么说，创新并没有发生太大变化。

But I think what hearing from you is not so much change in innovation.

因为我觉得我在帖子中明确表达的观点是，创新有多种定义方式，而我关注的是工具这一方面——如今你能用这些工具做到的事情，是五六年甚至七年前无法想象的。

Because I think the the point that I was clearly making in my post is that, you know, there's lots of ways to define innovation and sort of I focused on like the tools now are just one place like it's pretty amazing what you can do now with you know, these tools that you couldn't do five, six, seven years ago.

但我从你这里听到的似乎并不是缺乏创新，而更像是缺乏创造视觉内容的那份乐趣。

But what I think I'm hearing from you is that it's not so much a lack of innovation, it's sort of like a lack of almost a lack of like joy in creating visuals.

对，就像

Right like

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，毕竟每个人都知道怎么读柱状图。

I mean, I guess because again, like everybody knows how to read a bar chart.

所以我们可以从更深层、更概念化的角度来探讨。

So like we could get really like meta conceptual.

对吧？

Right?

那么，当我只是理解了一张图表的要点时，我会从中获得乐趣吗？

So do I get joy from reading a chart that I just understand the point?

那种过程本身是有乐趣的，但真正让我感到快乐的是尝试理解一些对我而言全新的东西。

Like there's joy in that, but there is joy in sort of trying to understand something that may be new to me.

我觉得我从你的话里听出了这一点。

And I I feel like that's what I'm hearing from you.

是的。

Yes.

而且我认为，我并不是想争论说，在每一次读图表时，每个人都会感到快乐，或者我们必须设计每一张图表来传递快乐。

And I think that like I'm not I'm also not trying to argue that in every, you know, reading of a chart, every single person, you know, must feel joy or that we need to design every single chart to deliver joy.

有时候，它真的只是二三十秒的信息。

Sometimes it really is just that twenty, thirty seconds information.

是的。

Yeah.

但我想说的是，当我正在撰写一系列文章时，阿曼达·麦克洛克和埃利亚·米克斯发表了一篇关于第四波浪潮的文章，总结了我们当前数据传播领域的现状。

But I think that there was something that when I was working on the series of articles, Amanda McCulloch and Elijah Meeks, they put out the article about the fourth wave summarizing kind of where we are in the field right now of data communication.

对我来说，那篇文章非常恰当地总结了我们领域的一个重要部分，即关于公共健康传播、科学传播等公共沟通的部分，这些对于告知并可能影响公众来说至关重要。

And to me, that article was very much an important summary of one part of our field, of the part that is, like, public communication about, like, public health communication, science communication, very important very important things to inform and potentially influence a public.

但我希望确保的是一点，那就是这并不是对我们领域的唯一总结方式。

But what I wanted to make sure was that that wasn't the only way that wasn't the only summary of our field.

所以我的一位朋友埃里克·林恩，我们经常讨论我们的领域。

And so one of my friends, Eric Lynn, we the two of us talk a lot about our field.

我借用了他一个电影方面的比喻。

And I'm borrowing this analogy from him of a film analogy.

如果我们用一个类比来总结，比如说数据可视化是一个关于叙事与沟通的领域，如果我们把它类比为电影领域，那么第四波浪潮所谈论的很多内容，或者约翰跟我提到的很多东西，就像是公共教育、纪录片，这些都非常重要。

So if we if we kind of summarize if we kind of, you know, use analogy that if dataviz is a field of, like, storytelling and communication, if we kinda, like, you know, equate that to the film field, then a lot of what the fourth wave is talking about or, like, a lot of what Johan mentioned to me is like the public education, the documentaries, and those are very, very important.

但同时，还有很多其他类型，比如喜剧片。

But there is also, like, a lot of other, like, you know, comedies.

有漫威电影，也有艺术电影。

There are, like, Marvel, and there are arthouse.

还有一些艺术电影，普通人根本看不懂。

There are like arthouse films that like make no sense to most people.

但没有人会说，艺术电影就不该存在，或者漫威电影就不该存在。

But none of us are like, our house should not exist or like Marvel should not exist.

我们只是讨论某部电影好坏如何。

And we all just talk about how good or bad in particular film is.

我们不会讨论这种特定类型是否必要。

We don't discuss the necessity of that particular genre.

这正是我所期望的，也是我希望未来能实现的：是的，公众教育非常好，非常重要。

And that's what I was hoping that's that's kind of what I'm hoping for going forward is, like, we're like, yes, public education, very good, very important.

实验性的艺术电影，那些能够推动我们领域前进的创新事物，也同样重要。

Experimental art house, experimental, like, you know, things that can push our field forward, also equally important.

在这些类型内部，我们来讨论每一件作品何时出色，何时不佳。

And then within those genres, let's talk about when each individual piece is good and when it when it's bad.

我想传达的就是这一点，也许在系列中并没有完全表达清楚。

And and I think that that's something I wanted to get across, and maybe it didn't quite land in the series.

不是的。

No.

不是的。

No.

我觉得有。

I think it did.

我觉得没有。

I think no.

我觉得确实传达到了。

I I I think it did land.

我想我们一直在讨论的，可能我甚至可以把它们分成疫情前和疫情后两个阶段。

I and I and I think there's just like we've been talking about, like, kinda pre I might even split it up into, like, pre pandemic pandemic and then post pandemic.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我想我还在想，是不是有像推特时代这样的阶段

I guess I also wonder whether there's like, you know, Twitter era

然后就是所谓的‘哦’时代。

and then like Oh, era.

我确实觉得，推特上数据可视化领域曾经充满欢乐和趣味，人们经常在线上进行这类讨论，对吧？

And I and I do and I haven't I guess I haven't really thought this all the way through, but I do kind of feel like what happened in the dataviz field on Twitter, which was so generally joyful and fun and you know, had these sorts of discussions online all the time, right?

但我确实怀疑，我们是否只是在庆祝一些别人都没看到或没关注的东西。

But I do wonder whether we celebrated stuff that no one else saw or celebrated.

现在因为我们不再身处同一个空间，也许我们根本没怎么看到这些作品，或者创作者和客户也不太像过去那样积极地推广它们了。

And now because we're not all in that same room that we're not maybe maybe we're just not seeing them enough or maybe maybe creators and clients are less likely to like really push them out as like forcefully in the past.

我不知道。

I don't know.

因为我觉得，我可能会不同意你的观点——你没这么说，但我认为，根本不是没有艺术电影。

Because I can't I think I would just and I you're not saying this, but I think I would disagree that, like, there are no arthouse films.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得只是这些电影更难被发现了。

I think it's just like they're harder to find.

是的。

Yes.