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Gonza，我们那八百五十三个视频里，你看了多少个？
Gonza, of our eight fifty three videos, how many have you watched?
大概四个吧。
I would say four.
不不不。
No, no, no.
大概四年前吧，你发的每个视频我基本都看了。
Like four years ago, I would say pretty much every video you had put out.
哇。
Wow.
这回答行不行？
Was that a good answer?
你知道吗，有一次，那是几年前了，我丢了一个视频。
You know what, one time, this was years ago, I lost a video.
那可以说是职业生涯的高光时刻了。
This was like a career highlight.
有人给我发了一个视频。
Somebody sent me a video.
他们办公室里有六个人，每个屏幕上都在播放这个播客，他像是在给团队做培训。
They had like six people in an office and on every screen, he was like training his team watching this here podcast.
那感觉太不真实了。
It was surreal.
那真是……
It was...
嗯，培训……
Well, trained...
我跟你说，我老跟你说这个。
I can tell you, I always tell you this.
现在我是对着现场观众讲，但我觉得，我是通过逆向分析你节目里那些大家讨论的具体问题，才学会优化节拍的。
Now I do that to a live audience, but I learned, I think it was beat optimization by reverse engineering different episodes that people were talking about that specific issue from your show.
对，然后他们做了……我想我给你看过……
And yeah, and they built, I think I've shown...
对，我给你看过我建的那个文件，那个计算器，我
Yeah, I showed you the file that I built, the calculator that I
根据那个信息
built based
建的。
on that information.
虽然它没救了我的身体，但它真的改变了我当时那个品牌的表现。
Not that it saved my body, it really changed the performance of the brand that I had back then.
太好了。
Beautiful.
你知道吗，现在所有这些内容都被我们那些AI大佬们吸收了。
You know, and now all that content has been absorbed by all our AI overlords.
现在你去……
Now when you go to...
我觉得大多数问题，你去问Gemini、ChatGPT或者Claude，都能在里面找到Ad Badger的引用。
I feel like most questions if you go to Gemini or ChatGPT or Claude, you find an Ad Badger reference in there.
你可能会找到一个Ad Badger的引用。
You might find an Ad Badger reference.
不错。
Nice.
多产。
Prolific.
不错。
Nice.
多产是我经常用来形容自己的词，我把它写在家里的镜子上了。
Prolific is how I often I've describe got it written on my mirror at home.
多产。
Prolific.
总之，他们让她参与了很多集节目。
Anyway They had her in something something episodes.
那确实很多产。
That's prolific indeed.
所以，Gonza，我真的很想……
So Gonza, I'm really interested to...
你第一次上这个节目是2013年。
The first time you were on this show was 2013.
抱歉。
I'm sorry.
什么？
What?
2023年。
2023.
2023年。
2023.
哎呀。
Whoops.
不。
No.
哎呀。
Whoops.
2013年我还在上高中呢。
I was in high school in 2013.
我孩子今天早上大概四点就醒了，所以我快累趴下了，Gonza。
My kid woke up at about 4AM this morning, so I'm running on fumes, Gonza.
不过你第一次上这个节目的时候，我就觉得特别棒，因为看着你作为电商创业者的成长和蜕变，真的很有意思。
But the first time you were on this show, thought it was great because it's been really fun to watch your ascension or your evolution as an e commerce entrepreneur.
我觉得这很吸引人。
I think it's fascinating.
自从我第一次见到你，我就很喜欢你的见解，因为你给我的印象是一个真正有才华的运营者。
Ever since I first met you, I've loved your perspective because you give me the impression of someone that is a really talented operator.
比如说，你看，看一大堆播客节目，然后批判性地分析它们，再拼凑整合出你自己的竞价方案，你自己的竞价优化策略，让它刚好适合你——这之前有人在节目里跟我说过，但并不是每个人都会这么做。
So like for example, you know, watching a whole bunch of episodes of a podcast and like critically analyzing them and like piecing together and synthesizing your own bidding scheme, you know, your own bidding optimization protocol to get it, like, just for you is something that people have told me on the show before, but it's not something everybody does.
我觉得这正是那些最优秀的人会做的事，无论是听这个节目的人，还是在亚马逊生态圈或者更广泛的电商生态圈里的人，就是沿着布鲁姆分类法的层级往上走，从只是看看、记住一些东西，到真正整合出自己的方法。
And I think it's something that I see, like, the most talented people who do listen to this show and just in the Amazon ecosystem and the broader e commerce ecosystem do, which is like work your way up the hierarchy of like Bloom's taxonomy from where you're just like looking at something, remembering something to actually synthesizing your own approach.
总之，我在这里提到这个，是因为你一直在继续整合你自己的方法。
Anyway, the reason I mentioned that here is because you've been continuing to synthesize your own approach.
你收购了品牌，持续扩大规模，这些年也组建了团队，现在你正在拓展亚马逊以外的业务，比如TikTok和UGC，你还在打造一个小型内容工厂。
You've acquired brands, you've continued to scale, you've built out your team over the years, you are expanding beyond Amazon these days, branching out to things like TikTok and UGC, you're building a little content factory.
随着这些不同的事情，你的团队这些年壮大了很多。
With all these different things, your team has grown so much over the years.
你的Shopify店铺已经上线运营，它占了总收入的一定比例。
You've got your Shopify store up and going, it's some percentage of your overall revenue.
所以看着这一切真的很有趣，我真的很想让这期节目就像一次回顾，比如，当你反思自己作为电商创业者的成长历程时，我觉得其他电商创业者可以从你的经历中学到很多经验。
So it's really fascinating to watch and I really wanted this episode really just to be like a check-in, like, you know, as you reflect on your evolution as an e commerce entrepreneur, I think there's a lot of lessons out there that other e commerce entrepreneurs can extract from your experience?
所以，我想请你带我们回顾一下从2023年到现在这段历程。
So I guess like take us through this story from 2023 to now.
好的，有意思。
Okay, interesting.
进展有点慢。
It's slow.
确实挺慢的……
It's a slow...
其实，为了让效果更真实，你可以用0.8倍速来录。
You can actually, to make it feel real, you can record this in 0.8.
好的。
Okay.
因为当时就是那么慢。
Because that is how slow it was.
你提到了一个有趣的点，其实我们在录制之前聊过另一个话题，但关于我做事的方式——不管是运营、亲自动手、学新技能，还是委派给别人——我都是通过一个学习的过程来进行的。
And you mentioned something interesting, is the way, and we were talking about this before the recording actually in a different subject, but the way I operate when it comes to either running something, doing something myself, learning a new skill, or delegating is by this process of learning.
所以，这就是为什么进展一直很慢。
And that is why, it's been slow.
我确实有点羡慕，带着一种健康的……
I do envy with with a healthy...
这是一种健康的羡慕。
It's a healthy degree of envy.
像埃隆·马斯克或者那些大人物，他们能通过雇佣那些在自己不懂的领域里最厉害的人，创造出奇迹。
People like Elon Musk or, you know, these greats, then they can pull out miracles by hiring people that are the best at things they have no idea how to do.
我从来没能做到，一是请不起那些人，二是即使我请得起，如果我自己不太懂那个岗位，我也没法去进行筛选。
I've never been able to either, one, afford those people, but even go through a selection process for a particular seat that I have to hire for if I don't know how to do it myself, at least at certain degree.
每次我尝试在教练和招聘代理的帮助下招人，我都失败了，而且失败得很惨，就像彻底搞砸了一样。
And every time that I have tried with the help of coaches and hiring agents, I failed, but tremendously, like I crashed and burned.
我有两位商业教练，我们在经过大量的预筛选之后面试了一些人，他们也在场，跟我一起参加那些面试。
And I have two business coaches who I interviewed people after an extensive preselection process, and they were there, they were at the same interviews, right, with me, or in the same interviews.
我们一起选了一些人，结果给公司带来了糟糕的经历。
We all together, we selected certain people that then resulted in bad experiences for the company.
好经历和坏经历的区别就在于，我自己至少相对了解那份工作，然后再去招人。
The one thing that separates a good experience from a bad experience is me knowing how to do the job at least relatively okay, and then hiring for it.
这就在于我能进行的对话。
It's just the conversations that I can have.
这跟我的管理风格也吻合，就是通过挑战来管理。
And then it fits a little bit with the style of management, which is you manage by challenging.
你是一个不断挑战技能的人。
You're a constant challenger of skill.
然后在这种来回对话中，团队的技能水平开始提升，公司的业绩也随之提高，对吧？
And then the person in this back and forth conversation, skillset of the team starts increasing and with that the results of the company, right?
你知道吗，我经常给那些雇了代理机构的品牌一些非常简单的建议，同时也给代理机构建议，那就是你只需要问你的代理机构，为什么结果是那样，而不是好10%。
You know, I often give people like brands that have hired agencies, I often give them really simple advice, which is, and I also give the advice to agencies, which is all you have to do to your agency is just ask them why were results the way that they were and not 10% better.
这是最简单的问题，它帮你找到增长的障碍，并且迫使刚刚向你展示结果的人思考，嘿，我们接下来能做什么来改进？
It's like the most simple question which just like helps you find the barriers to growth, and it forces the person who just presented results to you like, Hey, what could we do in the next timeframe to try to improve things?
如果你是代理机构，就假装你的客户在问你这个问题。
And if you're an agency, pretend your clients are asking you that.
假装存在这种对现状的不满，你需要稍微推动它前进。
Like pretend there's this like level of dissatisfaction with the status quo and like you need to push it forward ever so much.
这是我在数字营销表现方面最喜欢遵循的启发式方法之一，因为不管结果如何，重要的是为什么没有更好。
That's one of my favorite heuristics to follow when it comes to digital marketing performance because it's like, it doesn't matter what the results were.
就是，为什么结果没有更好？
It's like, why were they not better?
我们能分析一下然后做得更好吗？
Like can we analyze this and make it better?
当然这很难，因为你不知道听到的是不是真的。
And of course it's difficult, you know, because is what you're being told BS or not?
但显然，这种说法被证明是错的次数是有限的，比如我们得在下个阶段做这个。
But of course like there's only so many times that that could you know be proven false like, we need to do this in the next timeframe.
就像，哦，我错了。
It's like, Oh, I was wrong this.
哦，我又错了。
Oh, I was wrong that.
这种话你只能说那么久。
Like, you can only do that for so long.
但你提到了一个在亚马逊领域我觉得特别有价值的东西。
But you mentioned something that I think is really super valuable in the Amazon space.
你提到了。
You mentioned it.
你提到了像埃隆·马斯克和你自己。
And you mentioned like Elon Musk and yourself.
我其实觉得有一个很酷的原则。
And I actually think there's a really cool principle.
它来自罗伯特·格林的《权力的48条法则》。
It's from Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power.
我觉得这对我影响很大，那就是你往往在胜利之后失败。
I thought this was really impactful to me, which is you most often fail after victory.
意思是，你取得了一些成就，然后觉得自己能搞定下一件事，因为你错误地归因了自己的成功，你会想：哦，这些我都搞明白了。
Meaning you achieve something and you think that you can do the next thing because you misattribute your own success and you're like, Oh, I got all this figured out.
让我去做另一件我没做过的事，然后你可能会过度自信，过度扩张。
Let me go do this other thing I haven't done, and you can then overstab, overextend.
我在亚马逊这个领域看到太多这种情况了，就像：哦，让我再推出一个品牌。
And I see that so much in the Amazon space where it's just like, it's like, Oh, like let me launch another brand.
让我做这个，做那个，做这个，做那个。
Let me do this, let me do that, let me do this, let me do that.
然后就像，哦，你真正的成功是在那边做那件事，现在你却同时做五十件不同的事。
And it's like, Oh, the thing that, you know, your actual success was over here doing that thing and now you're doing 50 different things.
罗伯特·格林的一些教训是：不要越过你设定的目标。
Some of those lessons from Robert Green are, Do not go past the mark you aimed for.
胜利时，要知道何时收手。
In victory, learn when to stop.
有趣的是，我刚好在听一些关于埃隆·马斯克的内容，说他就是栽在这个原则上，他当时非常成功，然后他就想，我去把推特买下来吧。
And funny enough, I was just listening to something about Elon Musk and it said he fell victim to this principle, whereas like he was having a lot of success and then he's like, Let me go buy Twitter.
从那以后，推特就……
And since then, like Twitter is...
我记得他花了440亿美元收购这家公司，现在它连400亿都不值了……
I think he purchased the company for 44,000,000,000 and now it's not worth 40...
现在价值低多了。
It's like worth much less now.
我不太确定具体是多少，但这是个很好的例子，可以把它应用到数字营销上。
I don't exactly know how much it was, but that's a good use case to like bring it to digital marketing.
这种情况经常发生。
It happens all the time.
比如你的产品营销做得很好。
Like you have good product marketing.
确实经常发生。
Happens all the time.
对，经常发生。
Right, happens all the time.
这种情况在个人层面也经常发生，因为你刚才说的，让我想到，我这些年雇的很多人之所以不合适，或者合作体验不好，就是因为他们也有这个问题。
And it happens at a personal level too, because you were saying that and I was thinking the reason why a lot of the people that I have hired over the years were not a good fit or did not result in a good experience is because they were guilty of that as well.
就像，我现在在这个位置上，我想做下一件事，但我其实很擅长现在这个。
It's like, Well, I'm on this seat and I wanna do the next thing, but I'm really good at this one.
他们想让我做的那件事，我其实并不擅长。然后大家都喜欢挑战，但不是每个人都能成功。
Not very good at what I wanna do, is what they're trying to hire me to And then everybody loves a challenge and not everybody can be successful.
自负是敌人。
Ego is the enemy.
自我，自我是最大的敌人。
Ego Ego is the enemy.
所以，至少我了解这个工作怎么做，就能跟人聊，要么提前给对方打好预防针，要么直接看出这个人能不能胜任。
So by knowing how to do the job, at least I can have conversations to either pre frame the person for the challenge or plainly notice if the person is not up to it.
等等，让我把这个放到亚马逊的实际框架里来说。
Wait, let me bring this to real Amazon frameworks context here.
对。
Yep.
我觉得你特别擅长那种产品设计之类的事情。
You strike me as someone who's really good at almost like designing products.
就像现在，我看着你背景里的……
Like even right now I'm looking at your backdrop of your...
你在迈阿密，那是个漂亮的城市，你身后那把椅子也很棒。
You're in Miami, is a beautiful city and you have this amazing chair behind you.
然后我注意到那是一把摇椅，设计得很美，这个沙发也很不错。
And then I noticed it's a rocking chair, like beautiful design, and this couch is great.
你一直给我的感觉就是，你非常懂设计，而且懂得非常透彻。
Like you've always struck me as someone that like knows design and knows it very well.
我记得你骑的是杜卡迪吧。
I think you drive a Ducati.
这个能在节目上说吗？
Can I say that on the air?
当然可以。
Yes, of course.
你骑杜卡迪。
You drive a Ducati.
你看，你身边都是这些很棒的东西，我也看过你做的产品，每一个都特别漂亮，对吧？
Like all this like amazing stuff and I've seen the products that you've created and they're all beautiful, right?
所以我觉得，对你来说，找到产品市场契合点根本不是问题。
So I feel like product market fit was not an issue for you.
而且我还觉得，你在亚马逊PPC和转化率这块钻研得很深，做得也特别出色。
And then I also feel like you went really deep into the world of Amazon PPC and conversion rate and like you did that really well.
今天，几年过去了，我想你已经不再做PPC管理了吧。
Today, years later, you're not doing any PPC management anymore, I take it.
不做了。
Not anymore.
对。
No.
那你当时是怎么……
So what was your...
我确实挺怀念的，但是，唉，这也是没办法的事。
I do miss it, but yeah, it's...
不得不
It had to
这样。
happen.
第一，你是把这块交给别人了吗？
Number one, did you delegate that to somebody else?
咱们先从这里开始吧，因为我的意思是，如果你喜欢做这件事，又擅长，而且还有精力去做，我知道很多创始人就是不肯放手，想一直自己做下去。
Let's let's start there because I mean, if you enjoy it and you're good at it and you have energy to do something, I know a lot of founders that don't let go of that and they want to do it forever.
所以我见过各种各样的人，做各种各样的事情。
So I see all different kinds of people do all different kinds of things.
但对你来说，是什么让你决定把这件事交出去的呢？
But for you, what made you decide to delegate that out?
你把它交给了谁？
And who did you delegate it?
对，跟我说说这个。
Yeah, tell me about that.
首先你得意识到，在某个时候你会意识到，如果不把某些事情交出去……
First you have to realize, at some point you realize that by not delegating something that...
你知道那个关于委托的公式，就是你喜欢做的事、你不喜欢做的事，或者你擅长的事。
You know the delegation formula of things you like to do, things you don't like to do, or the things that you're good at.
通常，你会把那些你不喜欢做的，或者价值比较低的事情委托出去。
Normally, you would delegate those that you don't like to do or that are low ticket items.
低价值的，一块钱、四块钱的，对，对。
Low value, The $1, $4, yeah, yeah.
不管用什么公式，在我这种情况下，可能都不会让我把PPC外包出去。
Anywhere or any type of formula that you apply would have, in my case, it would have probably prompted me not to delegate PPC.
为什么？
Why?
因为在我看来，除了好产品和好品牌之外，PPC是最高价值的一项，接下来就是引流。
Because it was the highest ticket item in my opinion, after having obviously a good product, The good brand next big thing is bringing traffic.
所以，在获取客户的平台上，你必须非常擅长购买那种需求，对吧？
So the man capture platform, you have to be very good at buying that demand, right?
抓住那种需求。
Capturing that demand.
这其中的经济账。
The economics of it all.
你一直给我的印象就是，你非常擅长算这笔经济账，是的。
You've always struck me as someone who's very good at the economics of it all, yeah.
但如果你算一下亚马逊运营的经济账，最花时间和精力、最需要专业度的地方应该是
But if you run the economics of an Amazon operation, the most time and effort and proficiency should be in
是个大项，对吧？
Huge line item, right?
对。
Yep.
广告，非常大。
Advertising, huge.
在我看来是最大的。
The biggest one, in my opinion.
你有那个在……
You have that on...
嗯，那是这个等式中的一个变量。
Well, that's one of the variables in this equation.
另一个就是它消耗的精力，那也很多，对吧？
And then the other one is the amount of effort that it consumes, which is a lot, right?
然后你还要考虑你喜不喜欢这件事。
And then you have whether you like it or not.
而且我当时对这件事特别有热情。
And then I was really passionate about it.
所以通常你不会把这件事交给别人去做。
So normally you wouldn't delegate that action.
你会把其他事情交给别人，比如那些占用你时间、你不懂怎么做、或者你讨厌做的事情，或者其他的情况，比如是给你补充能量，还是消耗你的能量。
You would delegate something else that's taken up your time or that you don't know how to do, or that you hate doing, or it's other formulas, whether it's putting energy, filling your bucket with energy, taking energy out of your bucket.
所以，如果你想成长，你就得制定一个扩张或增长的路线图。
So, however, if you wanna grow, you have to do like a roadmap of expansion or growth.
然后你很快就会发现有那些领域你的公司现在甚至都没在做。
And then you'll find out very quickly, which are the areas that your company is not even doing today?
比如可以增加两倍、十倍。
Like could add a 2X, a 10X.
那就是市场营销。
And that was marketing.
那是亚马逊之外的事情。
That was off Amazon stuff.
那包括Meta广告投放、产品页面设计、亚马逊以外的单位经济模型、内容、社交媒体，还有邮件营销，对吧？
That was like Meta media buying, offer design, unit economics outside of Amazon, content, social, all these other things, email marketing, right?
我用同样的方法学会了PPC，然后把它委派出去，其他方面我也用同样的流程，但在尝试委派了两年之后，我才这么做。
The same kind of in the same workflow with which I learned PPC and then delegated it, I did the same with the other stuff after trying to delegate it for two years.
所以我雇了不同的营销经理、总监、媒介购买人员、TikTok代理，你能想到的都有。
So I hired different marketing managers, directors, media buyers, TikTok agencies, you name it.
但没有人成功，至少没能真正起飞。
And no one was successful, at least taking off and fly this
从零到一确实很难。
It's hard to go to zero to one.
这是整个过程中最困难的部分。
It's the hardest part of the journey.
没错。
Correct.
然后我就想，好吧，我花太多时间和钱去招人做这个了。
And I said, okay, I spent too much time and money trying to hire for this.
我当时很疲惫，倒不是说我没在做这份工作，而是进展缓慢让我非常沮丧。
I was burned out in terms of I wasn't doing the job, but I get really frustrated with lack of forward momentum.
这让我很耗神，对吧？
It drains me, right?
所以后来我就想，你知道吗？
So at some point I'm like, you know what?
我当初做PPC是这样，其他方面也是这样。
I did it with PPC, I did it with other aspects.
我想至少做到能把它推起来，然后再去找合适的人。
I wanna do it at least to a level that I make it take off and then I can find the right people.
到那时候，我招这些职位就会更有信心。
At which point I know I'll be more confident hiring for these positions.
如果我知道怎么做Meta投放，或者怎么做Google，至少不是只懂皮毛，我敢说比皮毛多一点，能跟人聊起来。
If I know how to do Meta buying, or if I know how to do Google, if I know how to do it, at least not the basics, I would say a little bit more than the basics to have conversations.
并且能看出那1%的顶尖人才。
And spot the 1%.
所以，如果一个人只是擅长某件事，但并没有让你特别惊艳，那他就不是那1%。
So if you don't get super impressed being good at something, that person is not the 1%.
那只是跟你差不多，属于平均水平。
It's just like you, it's average.
所以，如果你是平均水平，你反而更容易看出谁是那1%。
So if you're average, you can spot the 1%.
这样更简单。
It's easier.
你外包亚马逊PPC的事。
The delegating of your Amazon PPC.
是交给Diego了吗？
Was it Diego?
因为我认识Diego，他看起来挺厉害的。
Because I know Diego, he seems like a boss.
他就是迭戈。
He's Diego.
弗兰科，对。
Franco, yeah.
所以他们，你认识他们。
So they, you know them.
对，我刚才没回答，抱歉。
Yeah, I didn't answer that, sorry.
所以我做的是，我训练了他们好几个月。
So what I did was I trained them for months.
他们本来就在团队里吗
Were they on the team already
还是
or
他们是专门为这个招的
They were they hired specifically for
他们是被雇来接手这个项目的，而且他们之前没有任何PPC经验。
were hired to take this on and they did not have any PPC experience.
那他们是做什么的？
And what do they do?
他们只是你的亚马逊营销人员吗？
Are they just your Amazon marketing people?
他们到底是什么角色？
What are they?
不是，他们是亚马逊品牌经理。
No, they're Amazon brand managers.
明白了。
Got it.
所以他们负责所有事情。
So they manage everything.
而且那是另一回事。
And that was another thing.
我们总是跟你讨论这个。
We always talk about this with you.
我觉得PPC不应该被孤立地管理，在……
I don't think PPC should be managed as a silo within...
对，我觉得如果那样管理的话，跟负责亚马逊品牌的人沟通必须保持频繁。
Yeah, I think if it's managed like that, the communication with whoever runs the brand on Amazon has to be constant.
当然。
Sure.
我是说，这种情况是有可能发生的。
I mean, it could happen.
很多优秀的公司也会遇到这种情况，但在单位经济、利润率、利润和整体表现方面，沟通必须到位。
It happens to amazing companies, but the communication has to be there in terms of the unit economics and margins and profits and overall performance.
所以我就是这样培训他们的。
So I train them like that.
我培训他们成为品牌经理。
I train them to become brand managers.
他们先做PPC，进展虽然慢，但一年之内，他们从接手一些不相关SKU的广告活动开始，然后扩展到所有广告活动，再到相关SKU，然后是整个品牌，再到品牌的其他方面，就这样一步步来。
They did PPC first and the progression was slow, but within a year they started by taking some campaigns on non relevant SKUs, then all the campaigns, then relevant SKUs, then the entire brand, then more aspects of the brand, so on and so forth.
这能发生是因为他们能力很强。
This happened because they're very capable.
这大概是在一年半之后发生的。
This happened maybe a year and a half later.
在知识转移方面，我已经没有什么可以再教他们的了。
There was one in terms of knowledge transfer, there was nothing else I could transfer to them.
他们知道我所知道的一切，甚至可能更专注在公司某个快速变化的领域，就像我们知道的那样。
They knew everything I knew if not They were hyper focused on an area of the company that was rapidly changing as we know it does.
所以当我感觉到——有些运营人员可能会觉得有点奇怪——当我感觉自己不仅多余，而且有点跟不上时，
So when I felt, and this is where some operators might feel a little odd, when I felt I was not only redundant, but kind of out of touch with
你拖慢了他们的步伐。
You were slowing them down.
对，当然。
yeah, of course.
好的授权就应该是这样的。
As it should be with good delegations.
如果你又回到那片林子里，你就应该放慢脚步，不管里面发生什么，都让它自然发展。
If you're back into those woods, you should be slowing down whatever goes in there, goes on in there.
所以对我来说，放手是一个很渐进、很轻松的过程。
So that was a very gradual and easy transition for me just to let go.
之后的一年里，我还会去查看广告账户的情况。
And then for a year after that, I would check the ad account check.
我从来没动过它，但我会去看看。
I never touched it, but I would check.
我每天都会登录，然后查看整体表现，不只是那些高层次的指标，比如ROAS、ACOS，我还会进入不同的广告组合，分析一下赞助产品和赞助品牌的表现，这样持续了大概一年。
I was logged on every day and I would check overall performance, not only like high level metrics, ROAS, ACOS, like I would go into the different portfolios and do an analysis on sponsored products versus sponsored brands for a year maybe.
直到有一天我意识到，这其实在拖慢我的脚步。
Until one day I realized that's slowing me down.
所以我每天早上收到一堆邮件，我都在做这件事。
So I have all this email in the morning, I'm doing that.
而且我还有一个教练辅导项目，我一直参与其中。
And then I also was, I'm still a part of a coaching discipline that I have.
我总会和教练一起工作。
I will always work with a coach.
我意识到，如果我不能从表面管理我的公司，我就很难继续做下一件事。
And I realized, if I'm not able to manage my company from the surface, it's gonna be hard for me to move on to the next thing.
然后大概一年前，我决定不再登录广告控制台了。
And then maybe a year ago, I decided I'm not gonna log on the Ad Console anymore.
恭喜。
Congrats.
看看...
See what...
那感觉有点像，我记不清是哪部电影了，就是当你关掉灯，你知道，就是那样。
And that was a little like, I can't remember the movie, but when you turn off the lights, you know, like, that was it.
现在我只是偶尔进去，现在我得进去付发票。
And now I go in every once in a while, now I have to go in to pay the invoices.
我觉得这真的很吸引人，因为我不知道有多少人会说，我把PPC交给别人了？
So I think this is really fascinating because I can't tell you how many people are like, I hand off my PPC?
第一，像那些频繁换代理的人，从一个代理换到另一个代理，再换到另一个。
Number one, like agency jumpers, people that jump from agency to agency to agency to agency.
我经常觉得，最大的问题就是品牌方从来不知道成功或不成功的原因是什么。
And I often can, I feel like the biggest issue with that is that the brand never knows why there was success or no success?
你知道吗，比如为什么和那个代理合作不成功？
You know, like, why didn't it work with that agency?
到底发生了什么？
Like, what happened?
所以我觉得花时间去真正深入了解一切是非常重要的。
Like, so I feel like taking time to like truly deeply understand everything is so huge.
所以对我来说这很吸引人，但也不意外，你花了一年时间才真正把品牌的独特性传递给新的品牌经理，比如PPC是怎么管理的，我发现什么有效，竞争对手有哪些，通常哪些关键词有效，市场一般对什么有共鸣。
So it's fascinating to me, but not surprising that it took a year for you to like really transmit all of the uniqueness of the brand to your new brand managers of just like, this is how the PPC gets managed, this is what I found to be successful, these are like the competitors, these are like generally the keywords that work, like these are the things that generally the market resonates with.
理解这些需要很长时间。
It takes a long time to understand that.
所以我经常跟那些跟代理合作但可能不太满意的人说，试着找出你不满意他们的原因。
So I often tell people that work with agencies that are maybe like dissatisfied is like try to find out why you're dissatisfied with them.
然后看看障碍在哪里。
And then like where are the roadblocks there?
而且我在每个代理那里都看到这种情况，即使是那些很受欢迎的，我看到很多账户，就是那种，哦，账户看起来没问题。
And I see this with literally every agency, like even like popular ones, I see so many accounts where it's just like, oh, like the account looks fine.
可能只是知识上有些脱节，比如品牌和代理不在同一频道上，或者反过来。
There's probably just some like disconnect of knowledge, like where the brand was not on the same page as the agency or vice versa.
我觉得问题出在老板身上。
I beat it on the owners.
因为如果你跟代理合作，谁来管理代理呢？
Because if you work with an agency, who's managing the agency?
代理，或者说他们不应该，我是说，他们负责你的生计，对吧？
Agency's or should not be, I mean, they're in charge of your bread and butter, right?
这个行业一直给我们灌输数字游民的概念，辞掉工作，开个亚马逊店铺，让代理打理，然后你就可以在海滩上逍遥了。
And we've been sold in this industry, the digital nomad thing and leave your job, open an Amazon store, have an agency handle it, and then you're at the beach somewhere.
代理公司也是人，或者一群人，需要像管理内部员工一样去管理他们，完全没错。
The agency is a person or group of people that need to be managed same as if they were in house personnel, Totally.
或者说
Or
而且，代理公司可能会过度承诺
And hey, agencies can over promise
也是。
as well.
这是一种商业模式。
It's a business model.
所以我同意你的看法。
So I agree with you.
比如我有时候会雇一些供应商，然后我就想，天哪。
Like I hire vendors sometimes and I'm like, damn.
我是个糟糕的客户。
I'm a bad client.
比如说，我可以通过问更好的问题，比如问结果，从雇的那些供应商那里得到更多东西。
Like, I could I could get more from the people that I've hired who are vendors of mine by, like, asking better questions, by, like, you know, asking about result.
就是说，我可以成为一个更好的客户。
Like, I can be a better client.
所以我觉得在很多方面都是双向的，这样才能从你的代理公司那里获得最大的价值。
And so I feel like it's a two way street in a lot of ways to like get the most value out of your agency.
所以我觉得常见的情况是，品牌方什么都不说，默默生闷气，越来越沮丧，然后就走人了。
So like, I feel like a common thing is like a brand doesn't say anything, quietly seethes, gets frustrated and then leaves.
然后就像，哎，你错过了从合作方那里得到更多你想要的东西的机会。
And it's like, oh, you missed the opportunity to get more of what you wanted out of whoever you're working with.
所以难怪会……
So it's no surprise that it's...
我上周雇了一家代理公司，花了一周时间试图向他们解释为什么我可能不适合这家代理公司。
I hired an agency last week and it took me a week to try to explain to them why I would potentially not be a good fit for the agency.
我向他们解释了我喜欢怎么管理代理公司，看看这是否会是个问题。
And I explained to them how I like managing agencies to see if that would be a problem.
他们说，不会啊，实际上那些按照你提议的方式跟我们合作的品牌，确实能取得更好的结果，因为我们确实会……当然。
And they said, No, actually the brands that work with us in the way that you're proposing, they do get better results because we do make Absolutely.
或者我们可能有偏见，或者如果你也提供了所有这些输入，并且也在关注广告账户的话。
Or we're biased or if you bring all this input and you're looking at the ad account as well.
当然。
Absolutely.
所以，是的，品牌和代理机构合作时常见的一件事就是问代理机构：你们最成功的客户是怎么做的？
So yeah, a common thing that a brand can do with their agency is ask the agency like, what do your most successful clients do?
比如，我怎样才能更好地参与这段关系，从而获得最大的收益？
Like, how can I participate in this relationship to get the most out Well, of
有经验的代理机构应该在入职时告诉你这些。但再说一次，我们生活在一个只有1%或5%的世界里，只有5%的服务提供商真正知道自己在做什么，或者有足够的经验。
agencies with a lot of experience, they should tell you as part of But onboarding again, we live in this world of the one percents or the five percents where only 5% of service providers really know what they're doing or have the experience?
他们需要很长的历程才能学会什么才是成功的关系。
A long trajectory for them to allow them to learn what makes a successful relationship.
所以，你花了一年时间把PPC外包出去，然后招了个人进来，这说得通，然后你决定……
So, took you a year to delegate out your PPC, put somebody in house, makes sense, and then you decided to...
我还会说，你觉得这是品牌的必要性还是你自己的野心？
I would also say, would you say that it was the necessity for the brand or an ambition of yours?
意思是，你们已经扩展到亚马逊之外了。
Meaning, you've expanded outside of Amazon.
你觉得这是为了生存和增长所必需的吗？
Would you say that was required for survival and growth?
不，两者都有一点。
No, a little bit of both.
你只是想看看外面的世界是什么样的？
You just wanted to see what life was like?
不，关于亚马逊，我的看法是，因为它是一个需求捕捉平台，需求在某些有炒作热度的品类中会增长。
No, with Amazon, my reading with Amazon is that because it's a demand capture platform, demand grows on some categories where there's hype around something.
对，就像在文化中的某个地方，是的。
Right, like in the culture somewhere, yeah.
对，在文化中。
Yeah, in the culture.
但通常是因为有人在外面打广告，对吧？
But it's normally because someone is advertising something out there, right?
所以市场增长，你，我从来没有，我的品牌从来不是追潮流的。
So the man grows, you're, I've never been, my brands have never been about capturing trends.
炒作周期，对。
The hype cycle, yeah.
我们有品牌，是的。
We have brands, yeah.
我们有
We have
品牌做特定的事情，对，就是这样。
brands do certain things and yeah, exactly.
我们增长的方式是推出新产品。
The way we grow is by launching new products.
而且取决于品牌，也许我们推出的产品中有80%是高端品牌的好产品，今年我们推出了七个成功的产品，这是在推出十二个不成功的产品之后。
And depending on the brand, maybe from 80% of the products that we launch are good products on the high end brands, which is this year we launched seven products that have been successful and this is after launching 12 that haven't been.
这期节目我们没提前准备，但我很喜欢你刚才说的，因为那些增长最快的品牌，不管是不是因果关系，好像都是大量推出新品，然后淘汰或者清掉表现不好的产品。
Didn't plan this episode, but I love that you said that because a huge, I don't know if it's causation or correlation, but like the brands that grow the most seem to launch a lot and then call the or liquidate the bad performers.
我见过一些超级大品牌，有几百个SKU，他们也是这么做的。
And I've seen gigantic brands like with hundreds of SKUs, they do the exact same thing.
他们每半年就推出几十个新品，然后每半年又淘汰几十个。
They're like launching dozens every half year and then getting rid of dozens every half year.
因为就像，哦，你知道，我们并不依赖某一个特定的产品。
Because it's just like, oh, like, you know, we're not tied to any one particular product.
我们知道怎么去，比如，测试产品，然后拿到市场。
We know how to, like, products, test them, get them.
我觉得在亚马逊上最难的客户，就是那种三年前推了四个产品，之后就没再推新品的。
The clients that I feel have the toughest time on Amazon, it's like they've launched four products three years ago and they haven't launched new ones.
对。
Yep.
确实很难。
So tough.
太难了，太难了。
So, so, so tough.
在他们停滞不前的这段时间里，无数竞争对手带着新产品的新卖点和新细节冒出来，现在他们更有吸引力了。
In the time that they've been in stasis, a million other competitors have come with like new nooks and crannies for that product offering and are now more attractive.
比如他们找到了提高效率的方法，所以能卖得更便宜，诸如此类。
Like they found efficiencies so they're able to charge less, like all these different things.
所以我觉得这是必须做的。
So like, I would say that's like a must do.
我发现很多人只看PPC，连自然搜索趋势都不看，也不看竞争对手，也不推出新产品或迭代现有产品。
So like I find a lot of people, they're looking at their PPC only, and like they're not even looking at organic trends, they're not even looking at the competitors, they're not launching, iterating new products.
但我要告诉你，这两种情况都非常以亚马逊为中心，即使是好的亚马逊品牌也在不断推出新品，一直在推。
But let me tell you something, that's very Amazon centric, both dynamics, So even the good Amazon brands are launching all the time, launching all the time.
这是一种非常以亚马逊为中心的商业模式。
That's a very Amazon centric dynamic, business dynamic.
这不一定非得是二八法则，或者你推出的产品中80%达不到预期，不管是失败还是成功，或者没有带来你预期的收入。
It doesn't necessarily have to be This eightytwenty rule or 80% of what you launch doesn't go where you want, whether it's a flop or it's successful or it doesn't bring the revenue that you had projected.
这很像亚马逊的做法，对吧？
It is very Amazon like, right?
其实不一定非得这样，一个企业在新品发布上不必这么低效。
It doesn't have to be, a business doesn't have to be so inefficient in terms of product launches.
对，理想情况下你不会老是失败。
Right, ideally you don't a ton of misses all the time.
没错。
Correct.
我们做的这五款，其实有七款成功了，是因为我们差不多一年没有发布新品。
What we did with this five, seven actually that worked is that we did not launch for like a year.
我们花了一年时间重新设计品牌，做足够深入的市场调研，想清楚品牌要往哪个方向走，不让亚马逊影响我们的决策，因为我们预计的七款产品在亚马逊上可能都表现不好。
And it took us a year to redesign the brand, conduct enough and deep enough market research, see where we wanted to be as a brand, not let Amazon be a bias in that decision making process because none of the seven products in our projection would probably do well on Amazon.
它们要依赖我们还不擅长运营的其他渠道，但我说过，我一直是那个想新产品的人，对吧？
And they depending on other channels that we didn't have a skill to launch in, but we said at some point I've always been the one that thinks of new products, right?
而且我对我原来的品牌已经没什么新点子了，我想要的其实不是亚马逊那种产品。
And I was out of ideas the for the brand that I had and I wanted to have are not really Amazon products.
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所以它们就失败了。
And that's why they flopped.
我试过不同的想法。
I tried different ideas.
我们试试推出变体吧。
Let's launch variations.
但就我想做的创新而言，亚马逊在那个品类里并不是合适的渠道。
But in terms of the innovation that I wanted to create, Amazon was not the right channel in that category.
这就是你开始做Shopify和所有亚马逊之外的努力的原因吗？
Is that what led to starting Shopify and all the off Amazon efforts?
对。
Okay.
因为到某个时候你会意识到，好吧，如果我把这个产品展示给我的目标客户，比如说你能接触到像保罗那样的人，抱歉，一千个这样的人。
Because at some point you realize, okay, if I show this product to my target avatar, let's say if you had access to like Paul, I'm sorry, a thousand of them.
他们就会说，我爱死它了，我想要，我马上要。
So I love it, I want it, I want it, I want it yesterday.
但问题是，亚马逊这个渠道挡在了中间。
But then you have Amazon as a channel that stands in the way.
所以这些人其实会喜欢这个产品。
So these people would love the product.
他们不会主动去搜，但一旦看到产品，就会产生兴趣。
They're not searching for it, but when shown the product, you get their interests.
所以你的产品市场匹配度其实很好。
So you have a good product market fit.
你有吸引人的产品，有吸引人的品牌形象，对吧？
You have a desirable product, a desirable brand image, right?
但渠道本身并不在乎这些。
But you have a channel that doesn't really care.
你觉得呢？
Would you say?
你觉得这个产品有哪些特点，让它和亚马逊的受众不太匹配？
What were the characteristics of this product that you felt like wasn't congruent with an Amazon demographic?
最大的问题就是价格。
The biggest one is price.
所以如果你想，而且我们知道算法，对吧？
So if you want to be, and we know the algo, right?
如果你想比大部分销量所在的价格高出45%到50%，那转化率就会下降。
If you want to be 45, 50% more expensive than where the bulk of the sales are, I mean, conversion rate goes down.
转化率一下降，你就排不上名次，只能靠付费点击广告来维持生存。
If it goes down, you don't If you don't rank, you depend on PPC sales to survive.
这里还是存在……
There's still this...
付费点击广告在……
PPCs are going...
网上购物还是有这种心理，就是觉得，哦，这是高端产品。
There's still this dynamic in online shopping where it's just like, Oh, that's a premium product.
现在我一听到高端产品，就像我刚才在买……
Now when I hear like a premium product, like I was just buying...
我买很多东西。
I buy a ton of stuff.
我给孩子买太多东西了。
I buy too many things for my kid.
比如，我们想买那种高级的补充剂和好的泳镜去上游泳课。
Like, we wanted to get like a fancy supplement and nice goggles for swim class.
然后我就去研究，我就想，哦，那些高级品牌。
And I was like researching and I was like, oh, are like fancy brands.
我心里想，它们不在亚马逊上。
In my head, I was just like, they're not on Amazon.
就像，它们不可能……
Like, there's no way that like it would be...
它们会把那种高级又贵的维生素D补充剂放在亚马逊上卖。
They're gonna put like a vitamin D supplement that's like premium and expensive on Amazon.
结果它们还真不在。
And they're not.
我觉得这特别有意思。
And I found that so interesting.
不过呢。
Yet.
所以，是的。
So yeah.
我猜是这样。
That's my guess.
我真的很想，
I would love to like,
我有很多……
I have lots of...
总有一天会有的。
At some point there will be.
因为，在市场营销入门课里，或者说市场策略入门课里，你必须出现在顾客购物的每一个地方，对吧？
Because I mean, in marketing 101, have to be, or market approach 101, you have to be everywhere where your customer shops at, right?
所以理想情况下，除非会威胁到定价策略之类的问题，否则你必须无处不在，因为你永远不知道消费者会在哪里购物，他们需要找到你的产品。
So ideally, unless it's a threat to map pricing policies or stuff like that, you have to be everywhere because you never know where Jane or Joe will be shopping and they need to find your product.
但无处不在和什么时候该无处不在是有区别的。
But there's a difference between being everywhere and when to be everywhere.
是的，对于你关注的那些品牌来说，亚马逊并不是起步的正确选择。
And yeah, Amazon is not the right place to start for the brands that you might be looking at.
到了某个阶段，他们需要在那里去抓住机会。
At some point, they need to be there to capture.
因为如果你打造了品牌，亚马逊上自然会有需求。
Because if you create brands, the demand will exist on Amazon.
我明白，对，对，对。
I see, yeah, yeah, yeah.
你
You
不能不去抓住它。
can't afford not to capture it.
所以他们在亚马逊之外创建了品牌，建立了强大的品牌形象，现在他们只是在收割成果，这说得通。
So they created the brand outside of Amazon, built a strong brand, so now they're just capturing it makes sense.
是的，这真的很吸引人。
So yeah, it's just fascinating.
你说话的时候，我搜了一下我最喜欢的品牌之一，就是Yeti，那个做冷藏箱的公司。
While you were talking, I typed in like one of my favorite brands, which is Yeti, like the cooler company.
对。
Yep.
我就在看他们从冷藏箱开始，都推出了哪些产品。
And I was just searching like what have they launched over time from coolers.
他们从硬壳冷藏箱开始，然后是软壳冷藏箱，接着是露营家具，比如座椅和椅子，然后是货物硬质储物箱。
They started with hard coolers, then soft coolers, then camp furniture like seats and chairs, and then like cargo, hard storage.
比如可堆叠的箱子，可以携带的露营用品，更多的露营家具，行李箱，轻便饮水杯，就像Stanley杯那种潮流。
So like stackable cases, camping supplies that you can like carry, more camp furniture, luggage, lightweight drinkware, like the Stanley Cup trend.
还有专门用来喝咖啡的饮水杯，炊具，他们卖煎锅。
Specialty drinkware that you can drink your coffee out of, cookware, they sell skillets.
看着它不断扩展，真的很有意思。
It's been really fascinating to watch that expand.
但这真是一个绝佳的品牌建设案例。
But like what a great exercise in brand building.
他们的整个理念就是坚固耐用，超——哦，你
Like their whole thing is like heavy duty, sturdy, over Oh, you
你说品牌建设，我也会说是品牌建设，但从他们的角度来看，他们是在充分利用自己的形象，对吧？
say brand building, I would say brand building too, but from where they're standing, they're milking their avatar, right?
所以他们就在那里露营。
So they're on camping out there.
他们在那里露营，用的就是这些产品。
They're camping out there and this is what they use.
那还有什么呢？
And it's what else?
可能他们还会问客户，你们还会从我们这里买什么？
And probably they're asking their customers, what else would you buy from us?
因为你建立了品牌信任、声誉和品质认知，这些都可以转移到顾客愿意从你这里购买的任何其他产品上。
Because you build that brand, trust, that reputation, that perception of quality that you can transfer to anything else that that customer is willing to purchase from you.
我觉得问题在于，当品牌走得太远时，它们就完全偏离了最初的定位。
I think the problem is when brands go out very far, they leave the restoration altogether.
然后就像Yeti的家用银器一样，你虽然有品牌，但品牌的影响力是有限的，撑不了太久。
And then it's like Yeti silverware for the home Yeah, and you have a brand, but the brand has certain legs, they're not that long.
所以关键在于当下。
So it's the moment.
当下就是露营，当下就是户外。
The moment is camping, the moment is the outdoors.
就待在那里。
Stay there.
那是你称王的地方。
That's where you rule.
在那里，你才是Yeti。
That's where you are Yeti.
你在车里就不是Yeti了。
You're not Yeti in the car.
你在摩托车上也不是Yeti。
You're not Yeti on the motorcycle.
我觉得苹果电脑公司曾经想造车来着。
Like I think Apple, the computer company, wanted to create a car at one point.
后来好像放弃了。所以我觉得这很有意思，而且对Yeti来说，能被大家以这种形象记住，真是了不起的资产，对吧？
And then I think they abandoned So I think it's fascinating too, but also what an incredible asset for Yeti to be known by their avatar for all these different things, right?
所以对任何品牌来说，这都是一个很酷又很有挑战的练习：做所有这些事情，建立品牌，走出亚马逊，看看能不能创造出能引起目标市场共鸣的用户生成内容，去试试能不能在亚马逊之外引起兴趣。
So it's like a really cool challenging exercise for any brand is to like do all of these things, like build a brand, go outside Amazon, like see if you can create UGC that resonates with your target market, like go see if you can generate interest outside of Amazon.
多酷的挑战啊。
What a cool challenge.
如果你做对了，那就是一笔巨大的财富，让未来的产品发布更容易，对吧？
And then if you get it right, it's like an incredible asset, making future launches easier, right?
而且，在亚马逊上做产品发布，最好的事情其实就是你在亚马逊之外建立了一个邮件列表，然后告诉他们。
And that like the best thing that you can do for a product launch on Amazon is actually like have an email list that you've generated outside of Amazon and then tell them about it.
这是最重要的事情。
It's like the biggest thing.
这也是我经常跟团队说的一点。
That's a recurring thing that I tell my team.
我告诉他们，听我说，我们应该根据某个产品的最低起订量来规划产品发布，就是那个最小订单量，对吧？
I tell them, listen, we should plan product launches around the MOQ of a certain product, the minimum order quantity, right?
这时候你就得特别擅长管理跟供应商的关系。
And that's when you have to be very successful at managing the relationship with your supplier.
所以你要跟供应商解释，我们要发布这个产品，我需要你的支持。
So you explain to the supplier, we're launching this product, I need your support.
我没办法买一万件。
I cannot buy 10,000 units.
只能是一千五百件。
It will have to be 1,500 units.
而这个请求，这个要求，应该基于我通过邮件能向现有客户卖出多少件来定。
And that request, that ask should be around how many units do I think I can sell to my existing customers through email?
理想情况下，我还没有达到那个水平，但只用邮件，不用广告，就能成功发布，成本大概每封邮件两美分，对吧？
Ideally, I'm not there yet with any of my brands, but to use just email, just email, no ads, it's a successful launch from the, like it cost me, I don't know, 2¢ an email, right?
如果打开率是6%，转化率是3%，那就能卖出1500件。
And I can sell if I get a 1% conversion rate on an open rate of, let's say more realistically, a 3% conversion rate on an open rate of maybe 6%, that's 1,500 units.
所以你要根据这些数字倒推来建立邮件列表，然后你就能得到一个经过培育的、热门的邮件列表，对吧？
So you build the email list backwards from those numbers, And then you get to the email list, the nurtured warm or hot email list, right?
那样就理想了。
So that would be ideal.
然后你可以不断测试你的客户，那些你辛苦获取来的客户。
And then you can continuously test your customers, your hard earned customers that you're acquiring.
你在Meta上获取这些客户，每个可能花150美元，对吧？
So you're acquiring these customers at 150 each maybe on Meta, right?
因为现在成本越来越高了。
Because it's getting expensive.
但一旦你有了他们，你就可以推出不同的产品，而且由于他们是通过这些擅长把产品展示给用户的算法获取的，所以他们都是平等的。
But then you have them and then you can launch different things And because of how they were acquired through these algorithms that are great at placing products in front of people, they're all equal.
他们的心态、年龄，所有方面都一样。
They're all the same mentality, age, everything.
所以你在那里测试产品，人们购买，这就是一次成功的发布或测试，然后你可以，我会冒险采购一万件产品来推广它。
So you test the product there, people buy it, it's a successful launch or a test, and then you can bring, I would then venture and get 10,000 units and promote that product.
因为我知道我会成功。
Because I know I'll be successful.
我觉得我还有两个问题，就是……
I feel like I have two more questions, which are...
好的。
Sure.
第一个，这是一个假设。
Number one, this is an assumption.
我假设的是，你在亚马逊之外的电商营销方面学到了很多，比如品牌建设、Shopify、邮件列表、邮件营销、Meta广告、Google广告。
What I'm assuming is, like, you've learned so much about e commerce marketing outside of Amazon, like all this brand building, Shopify, list generation, email marketing, Meta Ads, Google Ads.
你学到了这么多，我猜是因为你委托了很多亚马逊的工作。
You've learned so much of this for what I assume, from delegating a lot of Amazon work.
就是说，如果你没有真正学会怎么把亚马逊的PPC工作交给别人，并且培训别人来做，你是不可能走到这个新领域的。
Like, wouldn't have been able to get to this new frontier unless you truly learned how to delegate and train somebody to do your Amazon PPC,
比如说。
for example.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
好的。
Okay.
第二件我想知道的事情是，你——是什么改变了？
The second thing that I want to know is like, did you what changed?
因为这个问题更偏向于元层面，就是我们现在在互联网上是怎么学习的。
Because like this is more of a meta question of meta meaning like how we learn today on the internet.
你现在学Google Ads、Meta Ads或者邮件营销的方式，跟很多年前学亚马逊PPC相比，有什么不同？
How did your learning for Google Ads or Meta Ads or email marketing, how is it different today than learning Amazon PPC so many years ago?
你不在你的……上碰这些。
That you don't touch on those things on your
播客。
podcast.
那些在你播客里学不到的东西。
That I couldn't learn on your podcast.
那现在有什么不同呢？
Now, how is different?
你是通过 Google Ads 学到 PMACs 的吗？
Did you learn about PMACs on Google Ads?
你是怎么学习邮件营销技巧的？
How did you learn about email marketing techniques?
嗯，这个问题问得好。
Well, you have to choose, good question.
你得选一个方向，我管它叫‘北极星’。
You have to choose, I call it a true north.
你要花时间搞清楚谁真正懂这行，不仅要看谁在相关领域最活跃，还要看谁能提供可靠的知识参考。
You go out there and you take your time in knowing who knows about this shit, Who's not only the most active voice on certain things, but that you know knows that you can gauge knowledge.
你可以通过问别人，谁在这方面最厉害？
And you do that by asking people, who's the best at this?
谁最厉害？
Who's the best?
哦，这个人，这个人。
Oh, this guy, this guy.
然后你在网上关注这些人。
Then you stalk these people online.
我做过一次，但我知道有人经常这么做，这其实很省时间。
I did this once, but I know people that do this a lot and it's actually a time saver.
你联系他们，然后付钱给他们。
You contact them and you pay them.
比如说，你知道，我不知道，最好的PPC代理公司的老板。
Let's say you know, I don't know, the owner of the best PPC agency out there.
那简直是顶尖中的顶尖，真正的第一名。
That's like off the charts, the true number one.
你上LinkedIn，说，嘿，我开了一家代理公司，等等等等，我们不是竞争对手，我们是这样的，等等等等。
You go online on LinkedIn and say, hey, I own an agency, blah, blah, we're not a competitor, we're this, blah, blah, blah.
我愿意花2500美元买你一个小时的时间。
I would pay $2,500 for an hour of your time.
你愿意吗？
Are you up to them?
你可能会得到肯定的答复，谁知道呢。
You might get a yes, you never know.
然后你向这个人问所有正确的问题。
And then you ask all the right questions to this guy.
做这样的事，能让你更接近那个最厉害的人。
Doing things like that, they get you closer to who the number one person is.
然后在通话中，如果你还不知道，你就说，好的，我有这个渠道，我有这个通讯，我参加或者主持一个智囊团，你也加入吧。
And then during that call, if you don't know already, you say, okay, I have this channel, I have this newsletter, I'm part of this mastermind that I host or I participate and then you join as well.
我就是这么做的。
I did it like that.
就是这样。
That.
所以我确定了目标，虽然有很多人选，但你必须选一个，对吧？
So I identified who, and there are many, but you have to choose one, right?
我在一个群里锁定了一个人，他的营销理念跟我很合拍。
I identified a person in a group that fit my mindset when it comes to marketing.
然后我关注了他一年半。
Then I started following them for a year and a half.
我加入了他的智囊团。
I joined their mastermind.
我经常提问，还在Slack上跟他交流。
I asked questions, I had them on Slack.
而且我是那里最活跃的，因为我有明确的目标。
And I'm the most active there because I'm on a mission.
当你有明确目标的时候，他们也会注意到你。
And when you're on a mission, they notice as well.
因为我们一起主持一个智囊团。
Because we host a mastermind together.
如果有人参与得更多，你就会被那个人吸引。
If there's someone that participates more, you're drawn towards that person.
所以这就是我的做法，和我以前的做法差不多。
So that's how I did it, which is kind of the same way I did it before.
你曾经是我的北极星，现在我有其他人了。
You were my true north, and now I have other people.
这是件美好的事。
It's beautiful thing.
这是件美好的事。
It's a beautiful thing.
这是件美好的事。
It's a beautiful thing.
好的，Gonza，非常感谢你再次来到节目。
Well, Gonza, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
距离你上次来已经七个月了。
It's been seven months since your last time.
希望再过七个月你还能再来。
Hopefully you come back in another seven months.
我会的。
I will.
我随时都愿意来，只要你想。
I to have these Whenever you want.
能有这样的节目，我们可以随便聊聊，让我深入了解一位电商创业者的想法，真是太好了。
Nice to have these episodes where we can just talk and I can get inside the mind of an e commerce entrepreneur.
所以谢谢你跟我们分享这些。
So thanks for sharing that with us.
非常感谢。
Super appreciate it.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thank you for having me.
那关于这个，要不要就此收个尾？
Well, about this one to close it out?
在创业或商业之外，有什么让你感到兴奋的事情吗？
What's something outside the world of entrepreneurship or business that you're excited about?
我得说
I have
是我的儿子。
to say my son.
他现在14岁，正在面对各种挑战。
He's 14 now, tackling different challenges.
初中最后一年，还要应对自闭症，以及现在更加活跃的社交圈。
Last year of middle school, dealing with autism, dealing with the social world outside that now it's a lot more active.
他本来不是个爱社交的人，但小时候他的社交圈更小。
He's not a social person, but his social groups were less social when he was younger.
现在就是帮他养成好习惯，比如去健身房、游泳、学语言、练社交技能这些。
And now like getting him into good habits, the gym, swimming, language, social skills and all of that.
这是我尽量从工作中抽出最多时间去做的事情，因为虽然我的职业生涯对我来说很有成就感，但这件事更让我满足。
It's the thing that I'm trying to take the most time off work to do because it's as rewarding as my professional life is to me, that tops it off.
它排第一。
Like it's number one.
你知道吗，我读完一本商业书之后，最近开始做一件事，就是我会很注意地安排，比如读一本商业书，再读一本个人成长的书，再读一本关于婚姻的书，然后读一本育儿书。
You know, when I finish a business book, I just recently started doing this thing where like, I'm trying to be really mindful about like I'll read a business book, I'll read a personal development book, I'll read like a marriage book, and then I'll read a parenting book.
我试着这样循环，确保自己……
I try to like cycle this to be sure I have a
循环着来。
Cycle this.
我试着保持平衡。
I try to have a balance.
说实话，读完一本书感觉特别有成就感，对，就是这样。
And honestly it feels like super rewarding to like finish a book Oh yeah.
关于一些不是商业的东西。
About something that's not business.
因为差不多十年里，我读的全是商业类的。
Because like for like a decade, all I would read was just like business
一本接一本的商业书。
book after business book.
我发现深入读那些其他领域的书真的很有收获。
I've been finding it really rewarding to like go deep in those other areas.
我跟你说一件事。
I'll tell you one thing.
你越读关于育儿和婚姻的书，就越会发现，商业其实挺简单的。
The more you read about parenting and marriage, the more you realize, Oh, business was easy.
商业确实简单，兄弟。
Business was easy, man.
好的。
Alrighty.
这活儿可真不轻松。
It's a piece of work.
就放那儿吧，Gonza。
Leave it there, Gonza.
非常感谢。
Thanks so much.
小菜一碟。
Piece of cake.
祝你愉快，兄弟。
Have a good one, man.
各位，我们下周PPC见。
And everyone else, I'll see you next week here on the PPC
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