14. 无权威领导：产品经理如何在没有直接控制权的情况下施加影响

这是产品部落

This is the Product Tribe

播客。

Podcast.

部落播客。

Tribe Podcast.

这是产品部落播客。

This is the Product Tribe Podcast.

这是产品部落播客。

This is the Product Tribe Podcast.

大家好，欢迎来到产品部落播客。

Hi guys, welcome to the Product Tribe Podcast.

这个播客由产品社区的人主持。

This podcast is hosted by the people in product community.

产品部落播客是一个由产品管理者创建并为其服务的平台，致力于深入探讨产品管理这一职业、面临的挑战以及广泛的相关话题。

The Product Tribe podcast is a platform created by and for product managers dedicated to in-depth discussions about product management as a career, the challenges faced and a wide range of related topics.

在我们进入今天的节目内容之前，我想介绍一下我们播客的新主持人乔洛米。

Before we go into our episode details for today, I would like to introduce a new host on the podcast, Jolomi.

所以今天他将作为联合主持人加入，后续的节目他将成为主要主持人。

So today he'll be joining as a co host and in subsequent sessions, he will be the main host.

乔洛米，你想打个招呼吗？

Jolomi, do you want to say hi?

好的，公主。

Yes, Princess.

谢谢。

Thank you.

大家好。

So hi everyone.

我叫乔洛米。

My name is Jolomi.

我是一名产品经理。

I've been a Product Manager.

我从事产品工作已经有四五年了。

I've worked in products for about four or five years now.

我曾在金融科技和人工智能领域工作过。

I've worked across FinTech and worked across AI.

我也在教育科技领域工作过。

I've worked across EdTech.

我一直活跃在不同的产品领域。

I've just been working in different product spheres.

我很兴奋能成为这个播客的新联合主持人。

And I'm excited to be a new co host on the podcast.

很高兴能和你们聊天。

Lovely to talk to you guys.

现在交还给你了，Princess。

Back to you, Princess.

哦，太好了。

Oh, that's great.

我听过我们的声音。

I've heard our voice.

我听过我们的声音。

I've heard our voice.

这就是他为什么在这里，老兄。

That's why he's here, man.

他之所以成为联合主持人，就是因为这个声音。

That's why he's a co host because of the voice.

非常低沉，非常丰富，非常播客范儿。

Very deep, very rich, very podcasting.

总之，我们直接进入正题吧。

Anyway, let's get right to the actual episode.

今天我们将讨论无职权领导，产品经理如何在没有直接控制权的情况下施加影响。

So today we'll be talking about leading without authority, how product managers influence without direct control.

今天我们请到了一位很棒的嘉宾，他将为我们讲授并分享关于今天主题的所有技巧。

And we have a wonderful guest with us today who would be teaching us and giving us all the tips around our topic for today.

他的名字是维克多·奥洛莫，目前在Lingawa担任产品经理。

So his name is Victor Olomo and he's a Product Manager at Lingawa.

他是一位资深产品经理，拥有十年以上的经验，精通金融科技、人力资源科技、软件即服务等多个领域。

He's a senior PM with over ten years of experience and expertise across several sectors such as FinTech, HR Tech, Software as a Service and more.

他目前在Lingawa担任产品经理。

He currently works as a Product Manager at Lingawa.

工作之余，他喜欢阅读小说和写作。

Outside of work, he enjoys reading fiction and writing.

维克多今天和我们在一起。

Victor is here with us today.

维克多，我们在开始之前，你想打个招呼吗？

Victor, do you want to say hi before we start?

嗨，很高兴来到这里。

Hi, Glad to be here.

哦，这也太简短了吧。

Oh, that was short.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

谢谢，

Thank you,

我的意思是，我已经说完了。

I mean, already said everything.

我的意思是，你不能说我是一只狗之类的。

I mean, you can't say I'm on a doggy or something.

懂吗？

Know?

总之，

Anyway,

所以我会让你们了解一下今天节目的重点。

so I'll allow to give us, like, the highlights of today's episode.

我们该期待些什么？

What should we expect?

好的。

Okay.

今天我们要回答一个关键问题。

So today we're answering a critical question.

我的意思是，我们都知道产品经理很多时候并没有实际的权威。

I mean, we all know how Product Managers don't have actual authority a lot of times.

我们正在探讨如何在没有直接权威的情况下，凝聚团队、推动决策并产生影响。

And we're trying to see how can we actually rally teams and drive decisions and make impact without direct authority.

关键在于影响力，而这正是优秀产品经理脱颖而出的地方。

The magic is really influence, and that's what makes Create PMs stand out.

在本期节目中，我们将深入探讨如何在无权威的情况下领导团队。

In this episode, we're diving into leading without authority.

维克托将告诉我们，如何将这一挑战转化为超能力。

Victor is going to tell us how to make this not a challenge, but a superpower.

产品经理是产品开发的核心。

And PMs are the center of product development.

我们与工程、设计、市场等部门，以及各个领域紧密合作。

We work across engineering, design, marketing, and really everywhere.

最出色的那些人并不依赖层级结构。

The best ones don't rely on hierarchy.

最出色的那些人会努力激励他人，协调利益相关者，并通过协作而非下达指令来创造动力。

The best ones try to inspire and they try to align stakeholders and create momentum through collaboration rather than giving directions.

我们的嘉宾维克托将分享如何建立影响力、应对复杂的团队动态，并在不靠职权的情况下推动事情落地。

Our guest Victor will share how to build influence, navigate tricky team dynamics, and get things done without pulling rank.

你将获得真实的实战洞察、经过验证的策略，以及一套帮助你自信应对挑战的行动指南。

Expect real world insights, battle tested strategies, and a playbook to help you need with confidence.

我这就把话筒交还给马塔斯。

I'll get back to Matas.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

这已经信息量很大了。

So that's already loaded.

我们作为主持人、联合主持人等在这里，但我也来学习的。

That's part like we're here as host, co host ETC, but I'm also here to learn.

我也来学习，听他这样讲的时候，我忙着记笔记，因为我也想在没有权威的情况下领导。

And I'm also here to learn like firsthand as he's talking like this, I'm just scrambling writing it down because me too, I want to lead without authority.

总之，我们直接开始吧。

Anyways, let's get right to it.

所以第一个问题问维克多的是：在产品管理中，什么是不靠权威的领导？

So the very first question to Victor is, what does leading without authority mean in product management?

好的，谢谢，公主。

Okay, thanks, Princess.

要回答这个问题，不靠权威的领导，顾名思义，你没有权力命令别人必须按你的想法去做。

To answer that question, leading without authority, essentially like it says, you don't have the power to tell somebody to do exactly what you want them to do.

但他们说我们是产品的CEO。

But they said that we are the CEO of the product.

是产品的CEO，但不是拥有CEO权力的那种，对吧？

CEO of the product, but not the power of the CEO, right?

你不能雇佣或解雇别人，也不能说‘现在就做，必须在这个时间前交给我’，但你必须让产品运转起来。

You can't hire on fire, you can't say, do this now and get it to me by this time, but you have to get the product to work.

原因在于，你合作的大多数人实际上并不直接向你汇报。

And the reason being that the people you're working with do it in most cases, don't exactly report directly to you.

对吧？

Right?

开发人员向CTO汇报，设计师向设计主管汇报，而你正是要与这些开发人员或设计师合作，才能推出你的产品或功能。

The developers are reporting to the CTO, the designers reporting to the head of designer, or these are the people that you're working with developers or the designers to get your product, your feature out.

所以你不能说‘晚上8点前把这个给我’。

And so you can't say, get this to me by 8PM.

我的意思是，对方可能正在处理其他事情，你的工作只能根据优先级排队等待。

I mean, the city had given up something else to do, your work is gonna have to wait depending on the priority.

因此，无权威领导就是：在没有命令权的情况下，如何让对方配合你，推动产品成功、功能上线。

So leading without authority is how do you get them to do what you want to make your product successful, to make your feature go out without necessarily having the power to command them to do it.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

所以这本质上就是影响力，以某种方式施加影响，让你合作的人朝着共同目标去做你希望他们做的事。

So that's basically like influence, having some form of influence in some way that will make, you know, make the people you're working with do what you want them to do towards a common goal.

是的。

Yes.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

这让我想到下一个问题，其实也是关于影响力的问题。

So this takes me to the next question, which is about influence actually.

我们正好说到点子上了。

So we're right on track.

产品经理该如何有效影响这些利益相关者和跨职能团队？

How can product managers effectively influence these stakeholders and cross functional teams?

你提到了设计师、工程师等等。

You mentioned designers, engineers, etc.

在一些较小的团队中，产品经理甚至还要兼顾销售、市场等工作。

And then in some smaller teams, the Product Manager also stretches even as far as sales, marketing, etc.

那么，产品经理如何有效地影响所有相关方以及这些团队中的每个人呢？

So how can Product Managers effectively influence all the stakeholders and everyone across these teams?

这些团队，这是个非常有趣的问题。

These teams, that's a very interesting question.

这是我多年来逐渐完善的一点。

That's something that I think I've been able to refine over time.

我的意思是，你可以尝试用不同的方式去打动人们的理性思维。

And I mean, there are different ways you try to appeal to, you know, the sense of reasoning.

但我发现最有效的方法是尽早获得他们的认同，让他们做出承诺，然后你才能施加影响。

But the thing I've seen to work out the most is get their buy in as early as possible, get them to commit, then you can influence.

这就是我的意思。

And this is what I mean.

例如，你正在开发一个需要上线的产品。

For example, you're working on a product that needs to go out.

当你在开发产品时，你并不是在向销售和市场团队介绍这个产品。

It's not at when you build a product, you're telling sales and marketing about the product.

你会感到很恼火。

You'll be annoyed.

他们会说：为什么我现在才得知？

They'll be like, why am I just getting to know?

是的，他们并没有直接参与你所开发的内容，但事后才告诉他们，就像是你已经自己做完了，现在强迫我去卖你做出来的东西。

Yes, they don't have a direct saying what you're building, but coming after the fact and telling them is like, oh, you've gone to do what you want to do, you're now forcing me to sell what you've done.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我一直采用的方法，而且效果非常好，就是在一开始就要让所有人保持知情。

So the way I've been able to navigate, and I think that works really well, is at the beginning, keep everybody informed.

他们可能当时并不一定积极参与，但要让他们知道我们在做什么，以及我们已经达成的共识。

They might not necessarily be active participants at that time, but let them know this is what we're doing, this is what we've agreed.

此外，他们可能不是积极参与者，但要获取他们的意见，作为利益相关者。

Also, they might not be active participants, but get their inputs, their stakeholders.

好的，所以我们正在开发这个产品，如果你要推广它，你需要哪些要素才能有效推广，让销售团队能顺利卖出，你知道的。

Okay, so we're building this product, if you were to market it, what are the things you need to be there so that you can market it effectively, so that sales can sell it, you know.

但这些实际上都没有纳入到打造一个可销售且有用的产品的过程中。

And none of these actually goes on into building a product that can be sold and that is useful.

你明白吗？

Do you get?

所以，尽早获取他们的意见，争取他们的认同和承诺，这样当他们需要积极参与时，就不会说‘我不知道’，也不会说‘为什么把这事推给我？’

So getting the input early on and getting their buy in and committing so that when it's time for them to play an active part, it's not that they're saying oh I don't know, it's not that they're saying oh why pushing this to Mina?

即使那时他们可能很忙，但因为不陌生，更容易影响或说服他们去做你希望的事。

Even if they might be busy at that time, it will be easier to influence or persuade them to do what you want to do because they are not clueless.

他们知道你希望他们做什么，你和他们讨论的是什么，你可以说：‘但我们早前已经达成一致，这就是我们要做的，什么时候做。’

They know what it is you want them, what you're talking to them about, and you're able to say, but you know, we had already agreed that early on that this is what we're going to do, this is when we're going to do it.

现在你就有了一个‘依据’，可以告诉他们：‘我们之前已经同意了这件事，现在别反悔了。’

And now you have like quote unquote, a hold to be able to, you know, tell them that, okay, we've agreed on this thing, don't go back on your word now.

人们喜欢言出必行，我说了这件事，我就一定会去做。

And people like to be men of their words, women of their words, oh, I said this, I'm going to do it.

所以，一旦他们早早做出了承诺，就会努力让它实现。

So, they will try to make it work once they've committed early on.

这就是我认为产品经理如何有效影响利益相关者的方式。

So, that's what I think, or how I think PMs can effectively influence stakeholders.

这适用于从开发人员到设计师、市场销售，甚至管理层，对吧？

And it just goes across from developers to designers, to marketing sales, even to management, right?

是的。

Yeah.

尽早获得他们的承诺，然后就可以用他们自己的话来约束他们。

Get their commitments very early on and you can use that with like their words against them.

所以就像

So like

从一开始就保持清晰且开放的沟通。

clear and very open communication from the beginning.

是的。

Yes.

大家好。

Hello everybody.

这是我们想要做的，产品经理、设计师、工程师，所有人都要尽早参与，这就是我们需要做的，以及我们希望如何做。

This is what we want to do, comm, designer comm, engineers, everybody very early, this is what we need to do and this is how we want to do it.

有些人甚至更进一步，会问：我们到底该不该做这件事？

Some people even go a step further to say, should we even do it or not?

你知道的。

You know?

所以，是的，是的，是的。

So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

这真的

That's really

很好。

good.

抓住他们的想法，了解他们的思维和一切。

Get their mind, you get their thoughts and all of that.

这真的很好。

That's really good.

这真的很好。

That's really good.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我会让乔洛梅提出下一组问题。

I'll allow Cholome to ask the next set of questions.

好的。

Okay.

谢谢，公主。

Thank you, Princess.

所以，维克多，我认为这直接与伊娃刚才所说的获得支持有关。

So Victor, I think this ties in directly with what Eva just said about getting buy in.

所以当事情沿着流程推进时，就不会有问题了。

So by the time things get, things go down the line, there's no problems.

那么，你认为大多数项目经理在没有直接控制权的情况下进行领导时，会面临哪些常见挑战？

Now what do you think are the common challenges most PMs face when trying to lead without direct control?

我知道，正如你所说，获得支持是一个非常重要的问题，但你觉得还可能出现哪些情况？

I know, as you said, buy in is a very major one, but what are the things you think may come up?

即使在争取支持时，说起来容易做起来难。

And even in trying to get buy in, it's easier said than done.

这正是我想说的。

And that's what I would say.

他们到底能做些什么？

How what can what what can they actually do?

你提到这一点很有趣，因为你刚刚让我想起了一段经历。

Interesting that you mentioned it because you just reminded me of an experience.

其中一个挑战可能是有人就是选择不同意你的观点。

And one challenge can be somebody just choosing not to agree with you.

我

I

我会说，以我的方式来看，有人选择不讲道理，因为

would say in my own way, I would say somebody choosing to be unreasonable because

是的，确实

yeah, there

有

are

这些利益相关者是谁呢？

people Are like are stakeholders on this?

哦，不，这甚至不是更早的事。

Oh no, this is not even earlier.

这甚至是我刚工作第一年的时候，大概是十年前或更久以前。

This was even like in my first year of work, so this is like ten years ago or more.

那是一位开发者，他认为自己的方式才是最好的。

And this was a developer and his way was best.

其他每个人的方式，他都不在乎。

Every other person's way was like, he didn't care.

他要怎么做，就按他觉得最好的方式去做，这就是他会做的。

However he's going to do this is however he thinks is best and that's what he's going to do.

很多开发者都是这样的。

A lot developers tend to be like that.

他给了我很多（帮助）。

He gave me a lot.

我想象自己刚进入广告行业时的第一年做产品管理。

I imagine my first year of Product Management after getting into ad.

天哪。

Oh, my God.

总之，回到问题本身，就是有人选择不同意你的观点，利益相关者选择不同意你，不理解你的立场。

Anyways, so common challenges, back to the question is like someone choosing not to agree with you, a stakeholder choosing not to agree with you and not seeing your point of view.

这是一种情况。

That's one.

另一个挑战可能是利益相关者有不同的优先事项。

Another challenge could be different priorities for the stakeholders.

没错，这意味着市场、销售甚至管理层中某一方有不同目标，且与大家想做的事情不一致。

Right, so it could mean that marketing or sales or even one of management has a different goal in mind, and it's not aligned with what everybody wants to do.

而且，每个人都有不同的交付成果，他们都在追逐自己的目标和关键绩效指标。

And it could be that, you know, everybody has different deliverables, and they're chasing their own goal, their own KPIs.

所以，如果你提出的内容无法直接关联到他们的关键绩效指标，而时间又很紧张，这确实会成为一个挑战，因为这里存在利益冲突。

So if what you're bringing doesn't directly attach to their KPI, and time is short, yes, that will be a challenge because there'll be conflicts of interest there.

对吧？

Right?

他们想做能让自己领先的事情。

They want to do what to do to get ahead.

你也想做能让自己领先的事情。

You want to do what you want to do to get ahead.

看起来他们的目标和你的目标似乎并不一致。

And it might seem that, you know, they don't go hand in hand.

所以这可能是一个挑战。

So that could be a challenge.

这也可能是有人选择不讲道理、拒绝同意你的原因。

And that could also be reason why someone can choose to be unreasonable and choose not to agree with you.

就是这样关联在一起的。

It ties in that way.

也有可能有些人就是毫无理由地说不，但这是他们的立场，对吧？

It could also be that somebody is just saying no for no reason, but theirs, right?

是的，我为你感到高兴。

Yeah, I could happy for you.

他们可能会说，怎么会

And they're like, how would

官僚主义也会发挥作用，具体取决于组织的类型。

Bureaucracy you do also has a part to play depending on the type of organisation.

所以有各种不同的因素，这样挺好。

So there are different things, it's good.

大多数挑战通常是优先级不同。

Most of the challenges are usually difference in priorities.

你重视的东西和别人重视的东西不一样，然后对方就是选择不同意你。

What you prioritize is different from what somebody else is prioritizing, and then someone just choosing not to agree with you.

我会说这些是常见的挑战，或者在更低的层面上，是他们缺乏信任。

I would say those will be the common challenges, or maybe on the lower level is they don't not trust as it were.

也许你是新人，心想：好吧，你不知道自己在做什么。

Maybe you're new and you're like, okay, you don't know what you're doing.

对吧？

Right?

而且你还没有证明自己。

And you've not proven yourself yet.

这可能也是一个挑战。

That could be a challenge.

假设你刚加入一家新公司，或者刚开始从事产品管理工作，你在要求别人做事。

Let's say you're in a new organization, just join or, like, you're just starting product management career and you're asking people to do things.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Like, okay.

那么从哪里到哪里？

So from where to where?

是的。

So Yeah.

我明白你在Twilio想做的事情。

I hear your what you want to do is in Twilio as well.

这可能是个挑战。

That could be a challenge.

我明白。

I hear you.

你让我这件事变得很简单。

And you're making this easy for me.

我非常喜欢。

I love it.

因为你说的这些也关联到我下一个问题。

Because what you just said also ties into my next question.

你提到有时候可能存在信任问题，有时候人们只是不想做你希望的事，因为他们觉得那样才是最好的。

You talked about how sometimes there might be trust, about how sometimes people might just not want to do what you want because they think that way is best.

还有一个非常重要的点，那就是这可能根本不是他们的喜好，或者根本不是他们的优先事项，这在商业中非常重要。

And also a very important one, which is it might just be not their like it might just not be their priority, which in business is very important.

每个人都需要保持一致。

Everybody needs to be aligned.

我认为这直接引出了我的下一个问题，尤其是在一致性方面，因为很多时候，一致性是信任的体现——人们可能会说，好吧，这可能不是我自己的做法，但我足够信任这个人，愿意说：嘿，我们试试看。

And I think that leads directly to my next question, especially with alignment, because I think a lot of times alignment is a factor of trust where people might be able to say, okay, this might not necessarily be how I would do it, I trust this person's ability enough to say, Hey, let's try it.

这是一种假设。

It's a hypothesis.

我足够信任这个人，相信他们有能力在当下做出最佳决策。

I trust this person to do their job enough to be able to be the best person to make this decision at this time.

所以我的下一个实际问题是：产品经理可以使用哪些技能和技巧来建立信任和信誉？

So my next actual question is, what skills and techniques can PMs use to develop trust and credibility?

我怎样才能从那个苦苦恳求别人接受我想法的人，变成像维克多那样，只要他说什么，大家都会说‘是的，维克多懂行’的人呢？

How can I go from being that person that is begging people to go with my ideas to that person that when, for example, when Victor says something, they're like, yeah, Victor knows his stuff?

在做其他任何事情之前，我们先试试这个吧。

Let's try that first before anything else.

或者干脆就试一试。

Or let's actually give it a shot.

作为产品经理，我该如何做到这一点？

How can I do that as a PM?

这是个有趣的问题，因为信任是随着时间积累起来的。

That's, an interesting question, because trust is earned over time.

对吧？

Right?

你必须以某种方式证明自己。

You have to have proven yourself in a way.

信任是随着时间积累的，比如在你产品管理生涯的后期，当你加入一家新公司时，大家会想，哦，他有五年经验。

Trust earned over time could be, you know, way along in your product management career, and then when joining a new company, know, oh, he has five years.

他有十年经验。

He has ten years.

所以，默认情况下，这有一定的可信度。

So by default, there's some level of truth.

好的。

Okay.

他一定一直都知道自己在做什么。

He must have known what he's doing all along.

另外，也可能是因为你在某个地方工作了一段时间，大家见证了你的成果。

And also, it could mean that you've been working at a certain place for a while and then they've seen you deliver.

对。

Right.

所以信任是随着时间积累的。

So trust is earned over time.

然而，我认为有一些方法可以立即展现出你值得信赖，这主要体现在你的知识和专业见解上。

However, I think there are certain things you can do to immediately show you're trust worthy, and that will come in form of knowledge, what you know.

对吧？

Right?

所以，说话要讲究，用同样的语言。

So speaking depends, quote and unquote, the same language.

对吧？

Right?

如果你在和开发者交流，就不要胡乱发言，而要真正理解他们所做的工作。

So if you're talking to a developer, not just flinging about, not understanding what it is that they do.

因为如果他们觉得你根本不了解他们的工作，又怎么能信任你提出的解决方案呢？

Because if this if they don't know that you understand what they do, then how can they trust whatever solution that you're bringing on?

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我明白你的意思。

I hear you.

对吧？

Right?

你知道吗，我刚开始的时候，记得我作为实习生开始做产品管理。

You know, when I started, I remember I started Product Management as an intern.

我最早被要求做的一件事就是学会承担责任。

One of the first things I was told to do was to learn how to own.

我写了 JavaScript、HTML、CSS，而那时 JavaScript 还算比较新。

Wrote JavaScript, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript was just relatively new.

我觉得目标并不是要你真的能像开发者或软件工程师那样去写代码，而是要能够理解，更重要的是，能与软件工程师产生共情，当我们让他们做事的时候。

I think the goal of it was not to be able to code as a as a once the word, as a developer, as a software engineer, or was to be able to know, and more importantly than know, was built to empathize with the software engineers when we tell them to do something.

所以你跟他们说‘我需要这个完成’，不只是简单地说‘我需要这个完成，而且两小时内就要’，而实际上这个任务本来需要一天时间。

So you telling them, oh, I need this done, is not just saying I need this done, and I need this done in two hours when ideally the task will take a day.

对吧？

Right?

这段经历帮助了我。

So that experience helped me.

是的。

Yeah.

不仅让我理解了与开发人员沟通时背后需要什么，对吧？

Not just in understanding, you know, what it is that goes into it, when communicating with the developers, right?

你是从一种有知识的立场进行沟通的。

You are communicating from a from a standpoint of knowledge.

你知道自己在让他们做什么。

You have an idea what it is you're telling them I to

听到。

hear.

对。

Right.

所以这是一种建立信任的方式。

So that's one way to build trust.

我通常会推荐它。

And I usually recommend it.

对吧？

Right?

你不一定非得去写代码，但我也未必非得亲自经历整个过程并成功完成；然而，仅仅通过吸收和理解它是如何运作的、人们是如何做的，这种经历会对你的思维产生影响，而且这种影响不仅限于开发者。

You don't necessarily have to code, but I may not necessarily have to be passed, like you've gone through the cause and come out successfully, but there's something it does to your mind, having just by assimilation, right, understanding how it works, what people do, and then it comes across not just developers.

作为设计师，你有设计眼光吗？

As a designer, do you have an eye for design?

你能理解颜色以及它们是如何搭配的吗？

Are you able to, you know, even understand colors and how they work together?

所以，建立信任的一个快速方法就是掌握与所有不同利益相关者相关的知识。

So basically, one quick way to build trust is to have knowledge and across all your different stakeholders.

说到销售，也要有个基本概念，对吧？

So when it comes to sales, have an idea, right?

如果你要去找他们，别毫无准备地就去。

If you are going to them, don't just go to them without an idea.

去研究一下谷歌，先有个想法。

Research Google, have an idea.

所以当你交流时，你不仅仅是说‘你去做这个’，你还在提出解决方案。

So when you're talking, you're not just okay, want you to do this, you're also preferring solutions.

这些方案可能不是直接命中，但你会让人觉得你确实努力去理解他们了，这很有帮助。

Now the solutions might not be a direct hit, but you come across as somebody that has even tried to understand them, and that helps.

我完全理解。

I hear that completely.

我完全理解。

I hear that completely.

谢谢你，维克多。

Thank you, Victor.

这让我想起自己职业生涯早期的经历，那时你的可信度，尤其是在没有履历的情况下，往往取决于你真正了解多少。

And I think that actually reminds me of earlier in my career too, where your credibility a lot of times, especially when you don't have that track record, could be a function of how much you actually know.

或者不在于你了解多少，而在于你对所参与的不同流程有多用心。

Or not even how much, of just how intentional you are about the different processes you're collaborating with.

所以我全力支持你的竞选，现在维克多就是总统候选人。

So I support your campaign fully, and right now is Victor for president.

我们都应该努力去

Like we should all try to get

获得这种信誉

that credibility

就是这样。

that is.

那么，公主，轮到你了。

So Princess, over to you.

我觉得你可以问下一个问题。

I think you could ask the next question.

好的。

Yeah.

所以我想说，一切都要基于维克多提到的同理心。

So I wanted to say everything is wrapped in empathy based on what Victor has mentioned.

你不仅仅是在学习技能来向他们展示内部的编码是什么样子，

You are not just trying to learn the skill to show them that what's the view inside is coding you are doing,

因为有些人会说，让我也来学一下

because some people will say let me even learn

如何编程，以便能真正理解代码内部到底是什么。

how to code so that I can even see what's even inside this coding.

所以核心是同理心。

So the core is empathy.

对于在听的产品经理来说，这并不是真的要去学习设计、拥有设计眼光或理解营销流程、编程等等，核心是同理心——你要设身处地为他们着想，同时这对你自己也有好处，你也在提升技能。毕竟，有些公司如果产品经理没有额外的技能就不会雇佣你，如今很多泛化的PM已经不再像以前那样受欢迎了，因为世界正在转向其他方向。现在像多洛米娜，你正在做AI产品，很多人现在都说他们是AI产品经理，所以如果你能更多了解团队中工作的人，这对你来说也是一种加分。但同时，也有一部分人认为，产品经理就该是产品经理，他们不该试图具备设计感，也不该去学编程。

It's not really trying to like for the PMs who will be listening, it's not about learning design or having an eye for design or trying to understand like marketing processes, coding or etc, the core is empathy, you're trying to put yourself in their shoes and also it's good for you, you're also upskilling, I mean, are some companies that will not hire you if you don't have you know some extra extra to your PM, a lot of generalist PMs are not like in quotes in vogue anymore, because the world is turning to something else and right now like Dolomina, you're working on AI products and a lot of people are now saying oh they are AI PMs, so it's even an addition to you if you have to like learn more things about the people who work on your team, but then there's also like a segment of people who say please PMs should be PMs, they should not try to be, they should not try to have design sense or they should not learn how to code.

有太多不同的观点，但在我看来，如果你想更进一步，想更好地与团队沟通，这确实很有帮助。

There are so many school of thoughts, but from my point of view, if you want to get like a step further, if you want to be able to communicate with your team better, it's just good.

如果你的工作场所并不要求你这么做，那也没关系。

Like if you're not required to do it at your workplace, that's fine.

但维克多的建议告诉你，这能帮助你建立信任、赢得信誉，他们会信任你的领导力，觉得‘这姑娘懂行’、‘这哥们儿真明白自己在说什么’，所以我们别总是在时间线上反复纠结了。

But you know, Victor's advice is telling you that this is what will help you to build this trust, to build credibility, they'll be able to trust in your leadership and be like, yeah, this babe knows what she's saying, this guy, you know, knows what she's saying, so let's not be, you know, every single time on the timeline.

产品经理和工程师之间会发生冲突，或者工程师会先挑起争端，因为产品经理通常很平和。

PMs are fighting with engineers or engineers will start it because PMs are very peaceful.

是的。

Yeah.

产品经理到底在做什么？

Like what are PMs even doing?

每隔两天，设计师就会说：我们根本不需要产品经理。

Like every two business days or designers will be like, we don't even need PMs.

我们做研究。

We do research.

我们做用户流程。

We do flow, user flows.

我们为什么要产品经理？

What are we needing PMs?

每次产品经理都会面临某种压力或指责。

Every time PMs are under some kind of heat or fire.

带着不尊重。

With disrespect.

所以，你们到底在做什么？

Like, so like, what are you guys even doing?

这是因为也许他们告诉他们想做某事，而产品经理却说，现在就应该明天完成。

And this is because maybe they tell them they want to do something and PMs are like, so it should be done tomorrow now.

而他们则说，不，这件事需要两周时间。

And they're like, no, this thing takes like two weeks.

而他们说，你根本不懂我在说什么。

And they're like, you don't even know what I'm talking about.

所以他们很生气。

So they get upset.

而另一些时候，产品经理却因为

And then some other times PMs are now angry that

你们这些人安全，你知道，这

you people safe, you know, it's

不会容忍任何借口，两周就是两周。

not going take any nonsense two weeks.

你在说什么？

What are you talking about?

他们中的大多数都有充分依据，因为他们自己有相关经验，或者曾经失去过参与过这类工作的工程师，基于以往的历史。

And most of them are on good authority because they have an idea of maybe that's how that thing works because need for themselves or they've lost an engineer who has worked on that and based on history.

但任何事情都需要某种平衡。

So, but everything has to have some form of balance.

我不认为应该强迫产品经理去了解每个团队的所有细节。

I don't think PMs should be pushed towards the world to learn everything about everybody's team.

我的意思是，那只是让自己负担过重，只需要有一点理解，能够共情就够了。

I mean, like, that's just stretching yourself too much for just have an idea to be able to empathize with them.

并且能够以接近最高水平的方式与他们沟通，我只是想补充这一点。

And to be able to communicate with them like at near highest you know, levels, I just wanted to add that.

是的。

Yeah.

工程师们，请别看这边。

Engineers, please look the other way.

我想悄悄插入一点有助于我们的事情。

Let's take one thing that help that I would like to sneak in.

对构建技术保持兴趣，因为无论它带你去哪里，你不必什么都做，但你的兴趣会带你

Just be interested in building technology Because whatever that takes you, you don't have to do everything, but your interest will take you

到

to

很多其他地方。

so many other places.

而且，这很明显。

Like, and it shows.

对我来说，这是一样真正帮助我的事情。

I think for me, that's one thing that's really helped me.

我更感兴趣的是构建技术产品以及所需的一切，而不仅仅是完成我的产品经理工作。

Like, I'm more interested in just building a technology product and what it takes as opposed to just doing my PM job.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

非常感谢你让我们参与进来。

Thank you so much for sleeping our in.

无论如何，我们已经讨论过什么是领导权威。

Anyways, so we've talked about like what it means to lead to the authority.

我们谈到了产品经理如何影响他们的利益相关者，讨论了常见的挑战，以及产品经理为建立信任需要发展的技能和技巧。

We've talked about, you know, how PMs can influence their stakeholders, talked about the common challenges and also the skills and techniques that these PMs have to develop to build trust.

接下来我们要讲的是COCO，它也与我们刚才提到的常见挑战和建立信任有关。

We are going to the COCO, which is also connected to the common challenges and this building trust team we just mentioned.

现在，现在，现在。

Now, now, now.

我是一名产品经理，现在在一个团队里。

I am a PM and I'm on a team now.

这个团队有12名工程师和12名设计师。

This team has 12 engineers, 12 designers.

这是一个很大的团队。

That's such a large team.

好吧，让我等一下。

Okay, let me wait.

无论如何，我们有一个完整的团队。

Anyway, we have like a full team.

为什么要在团队中应对反对或阻力？

Why handle pushback or resistance on teams?

你知道，你提到过有人说了什么，或者有人不讲道理，或者有人只是想说：‘维克多，我会在公司里处理你。’

You know, you mentioned something about somebody saying that or someone being unreasonable, or somebody's just trying to say this Victor, I will deal with you in this company.

你永远无法前进。

You will never move forward.

这就像，天啊，沙巴特。

This is that that God forbid, Shabbos.

你知道我说的是什么。

You You know what I'm talking about.