多巴胺国度与数字药物时代——安娜·兰布克博士

当我看到它时，我会睁大眼睛。

I have wide eyes when I'm seeing it.

我想减少做这件事的频率，但我就是做不到。

I want to stop doing as much of it as I'm doing, and yet I am unable to.

所以我同意你的观点，我们都以不同程度存在着这种情况，这是因为我们的大脑在数万年的进化过程中被塑造得本能地追求愉悦、逃避痛苦——因为在人类大部分历史中，这种机制确保了我们在资源匮乏、危险无处不在的世界中的生存。

And so I agree with you that that that is true for all of us in varying degrees, and it's because of the way we are wired over, you know, many many many thousands of years of evolution to reflexively approach pleasure and avoid pain because that is what ensured our survival in a world of scarcity and ever present danger, which is the world that we lived in for most of human existence.

随着文明的进步，我们利用自己发达的大脑将技术内化了。

As civilization has progressed, we have managed to use our big brains to apply technology inside.

没错。

Right.

现在，我们把一切都药物化了。

Now we've drugified everything.

我们让事物变得更具奖赏性、更容易获取、更丰富、更新颖，因此我们现在都陷入这种强迫性过度消费的问题中，而这确实让我们感到不快乐。

We've made it more potently rewarding, more easily accessible, more abundant, more novel, and so now we're all struggling with this problem of compulsive overconsumption, which is, you know, really making us unhappy.

陌生人认可的这个想法。

This idea of the affirmation of strangers.

因此，很明显，我们通过进化也被设定为渴望与他人建立联系。

So it's very clear that we are also wired over evolution to want to connect with people.

你知道，生活在部落中能确保我们找到伴侣、管理稀缺资源、抵御捕食者，而这种本能是通过多巴胺奖励通路发挥作用的。

You know, being in a tribe is what ensures that we will find mates, steward scarce resources, protect ourselves against predators, and that wiring works through our dopamine reward pathway.

我们知道，催产素——这种爱的激素——会与奖励回路中的多巴胺释放神经元结合，促使多巴胺释放，而多巴胺正是我们的愉悦奖励神经递质。

We know that oxytocin, the love hormone, binds to dopamine releasing neurons in the reward circuitry to release dopamine, which is our pleasure reward neurotransmitter.

多巴胺释放得越多、越快，感觉就越好。

The more that dopamine is released and the faster that it's released, the better it feels.

这原本是健康、正常且美好的，直到你遭遇了‘药物化’的人际关系——而这正是互联网、社交媒体和数字媒体所造成的结果。

And this is healthy and normal and wonderful until you have drugified human connection, which is exactly what the Internet and social media and digital media has done.

所以你是一个注重人际关系的人。

So you're somebody who's relational.

你在意别人对你的看法。

You care about what other people think of you.

顺便说一句，我们所有人都是如此，只是程度不同而已。

We all do, by the way, to varying degrees.

但你知道，我们大多数人，如果不是所有人的话，都在意别人怎么想。

But, you know, most of us, if not all of us care what other people think.

这已经深深植根于我们的本性。

That's so deeply ingrained.

但现在你生活在一个可以瞬间获得大规模肯定或其反面的世界里，成百上千甚至上百万的人，通过点赞、分享等不断量化。

But now you live in a world where you can have instant affirmation or its opposite at scale, hundreds to thousands to millions of people, right, quantified with likes and shares and and on and on.

现在你真的拥有了一种非常强烈的‘药物’，当它运转良好时，其强化效果极其显著，远胜于我丈夫可能给我的一句好话。

And now you really have a very potent drug, which when it's going well is incredibly reinforcing, much more so than some nice compliment my husband might give me.

比如，那远不如我的书在亚马逊上排名第一，有大量评论和人们告诉我我有多棒来得令人兴奋。

Like, that's not as exciting as my book is number one on Amazon, right, with a whole bunch of reviews and people telling me that I'm great.

很容易就陷入这种状态。

And it's very easy to get get caught up in that.

所以，是的，我认为我们可能会对陌生人的肯定上瘾。

So, yes, I think we can get addicted to the affirmation of strangers.

我认为互联网和社交媒体已经将社会认可‘药物化’，使我们所有人都更容易陷入这个问题。

I think that the internet and social media has become the drugification of social affirmation, making us all more vulnerable to that problem.

针对这个问题，我的干预方式会和对待药物与酒精成瘾者一样，那就是远离社交媒体的肯定场所，尤其是在你大规模接触这些反馈时。

And my intervention for that problem would be the same as for people addicted to drugs and alcohol, which would be to abstain from social affirmation venues, especially when you're dealing with them at scale.

所以尽量避免那些会让你接触到大量赞许和喜爱的情境，因为最终，这种多巴胺的剧烈飙升会导致大脑通过下调多巴胺传递来适应，不仅降到基础水平，甚至还会低于基础水平，进入多巴胺缺乏状态。

So try to avoid those types of situations where you would be exposed to like all of the love, because ultimately what happens with that huge surge of dopamine is that our brain compensates by down regulating dopamine transmission, not just to tonic baseline levels, but actually below baseline, we go into a dopamine deficit state.

这就是成瘾的大脑。

That is the addicted brain.

现在，我们需要更多、更强效的‘药物’，不是为了感到兴奋或快乐，而是为了恢复平衡，回到基础状态，感觉正常，于是我们陷入持续的渴望中。

Now we need more of our drug in more potent forms, not to get high and feel good, but just to sort of level our balance, go back to baseline and feel normal, and we're in a constant state of craving.

此外，我们还经历着任何成瘾物质戒断时的普遍症状：焦虑、易怒、失眠、情绪低落和强烈渴望。

Plus, we're experiencing the universal symptoms of withdrawal from any addictive substance, which are anxiety, irritability, insomnia, dysphoria, and craving.

获得更多‘药物’能暂时缓解这些症状，但它持续时间很短，反而会让问题变得更糟。

Getting more of our drug temporarily relieves that, but but it doesn't last very long and and actually makes the problem worse.

从金钱的角度来看，有大量证据表明，金钱收益激活的奖赏通路与药物和酒精相同。

And in terms of money, I mean, there's so much evidence that monetary gain lights up the same reward pathway as drugs and alcohol.

这就是为什么我们正目睹网络病态赌博现象急剧增加的原因。

It's why we're seeing a huge huge increase in online pathological gambling.

体育博彩已在国家许多州合法化，随之而来的是，拨打病理性赌博热线电话的数量增加了300%到500%，因为人们正因赌注押在诸如裁判在比赛中是否会碰帽子五次这类荒谬的事情上而输掉一切。

Sports betting has been made legal in many states in the nation, and with it, like a 300 to 500% increase in calls to hotline pathological gambling centers, because people are losing everything in the face of, you know, their their parlays having to do with whether or not the referee is going to touch his hat five times, you know, during the game.

所以，是的，这可以说是人类本性的放大体现，因为我们生活在一个生态系统中，它把所有本质上健康且对我们有益、大脑原本需要去做的事，都变成了毒品。

So yeah, I mean, this is sort of human nature, like writ large, because we live in an ecosystem that has taken all of these things that are in some fundamental way healthy and good for us, and something that our brains need to be doing, and and turned it into a drug.

是的。

Yes.

在思考之前，我常常说某件事是一场危机。

Prior to thought, I I believe that one of I'm constantly saying something is a crisis.

我总是用‘危机’这个词，但我确实认为我们正面临一场孤独的危机。

I always use the word crisis, but I do think we have a crisis of loneliness.

你认为人们会沉迷于孤独吗？还是说，我们只是用以前从社交中获得的快感，转而通过像YouTube这样低成本、低门槛、低风险的活动来获取那种刺激？你能上瘾吗？我得强迫自己。

Do you think you can be addicted to loneliness or that we just fill in the dope that we used to get from being social to, as you referenced, getting that hit with a low cost, low entry, low risk activity like YouTube or what have you, can you get a I have to force myself.

我需要付出几乎和戒酒一样多的自律，才能走出去和别人相处。

It takes me almost as much discipline to get out and be around other people as it is to drink less.

随着年龄增长，我已经沉迷于独处了。

I have become, as I've gotten older, addicted to being alone.

我发现这样更简单、更舒服，不管发生什么。

And I just find it easier, comforting, whatever happens.

我知道这对我有害。

And I know it's bad for me.

你能否说，刻意选择独处，甚至超过健康范围，这可以被归类为一种成瘾吗？

Could you say a certain level of deciding to be alone maybe more than it's healthy, could that be classified as an addiction?

各种形式的药物都是人类伟大的替代品。

Drugs in all their forms are the great human replacement.

成瘾是一种孤独的疾病。

Addiction is a disease of loneliness.

即使我们生活中有很多优秀的人，但如果我们上瘾了，就会孤立自己，用我们的药物来替代人际连接。

Even if we have a lot of great people in our lives, if we are if we get addicted, we will isolate, and we will use our drug to replace that human connection.

我这么说是因为，我们有时把孤独视为成瘾的原因，但更常见的情况是，成瘾导致了孤独。

So, and I say that because we sometimes talk about loneliness as the cause of addiction, but more often than not, what I see is that the addiction causes the loneliness.

因为我们能够通过这种药物、设备或行为来满足我们的生理、情感和性需求，就不再去主动寻找他人了。

That because we're able to use this drug or this device or this behavior to meet our physical, emotional, sexual needs, we are no longer seeking out other people.

这是一个巨大的问题。

And it's an enormous problem.

因为不仅在美国，实际独自生活的人数比以往任何时候都多，而且认同孤独感的人数也达到了历史最高水平。

Because not only are more people in The United States actually physically living alone than ever before, but more people than ever before are endorsing loneliness.

所以这是一个严重的问题，而解决办法是去做那些短期内痛苦而困难的事情，因为从长远来看，这会让我们感觉更好，让我们的生活更美好。

So this is a huge problem, and again, the antidote is to do the thing that's painful and difficult in the short term because in the long term, it will make us feel better, and it will make our lives better.

在你办公室接待的患者和你接触到的研究中，你观察到哪些成瘾类型增加了或减少了？

How have you seen the the patients and the research you see come through your office and across your desk, which addictions or types of addictions have you seen increase and decrease?

就我们的患者群体而言，多年来最常见的成瘾类型一直是那些常见的：酒精、尼古丁、大麻，然后从21世纪初开始，阿片类药物、处方阿片类药物，逐渐演变为海洛因和非法芬太尼。

So our the in terms of our patient population, the most common addictions for years have been the usual suspects, alcohol, nicotine, cannabis, and then starting the early two thousands, opioids, prescription opioids, segueing to heroin and illicit fentanyl.

从21世纪初开始，我们首次注意到中年男性前来就诊，他们患有性色情和强迫性自慰成瘾，几乎所有人都表示，这是互联网的出现，尤其是智能手机的普及，使他们从原本适度、可控的色情使用，演变为过度、失控的成瘾行为，摧毁了他们的生活——失去家庭、工作，甚至参与非法活动。

Starting in the early two thousands, we saw the very first signal of typically middle aged men coming in with sex pornography and compulsive masturbation addiction, and almost universally endorsing that it was the advent of the Internet, and then explicitly the mobile devices, the smartphones that led them from, you know, moderate, manageable pornography use to immoderate, unmanageable addictive use, and and destroying lives, like losing their families, their jobs, engaging in illegal activity.

自那以后，我们看到越来越多的人前来就诊，表现出数字媒体成瘾，如电子游戏、社交媒体、在线赌博、在线购物，以及更广泛的互联网成瘾，这是一种对互联网的弥漫性依赖。

Since that time, we've just seen an increase in escalation in people coming, presenting with digital media addictions, video games, social media, online gambling, online shopping, the Internet more broadly, a kind of diffuse addiction to the Internet.

因此，我们真正看到的是这些成瘾类型的增加。

So that's what we're really seeing increasing.

你知道，我们在这里北加州，大麻问题非常严重。

You know, we're here in Northern California, so cannabis is huge.

我们还看到很多像我们之前讨论过的那种合成药物、致幻剂和迷幻剂。

We're also seeing a lot of, as we talked about, sort of designer drugs, psychedelics, hallucinogens.

比如，以前人们会用一个词叫‘白手套酒鬼’，大概二三十年前吧。

Like, nobody uses they used to call they used to like, let's say twenty five, thirty years ago, they had this term white glove alcoholics.

那些人就是只对酒精上瘾，别的都不碰。

These were folks who, like, they were just addicted to alcohol and not anything else.

现在我们再也看不到这种人了。

We never see that anymore.

每个人都同时使用一大堆东西。

Everybody's using a whole bunch of stuff.

这简直就像一场真正的多重药物滥用盛宴。

It's real it's a real sort of polypharmacy festival.

我经常指导和接触很多年轻人，尤其是年轻男性。

I coach and work with a lot of young people, specifically, I think a lot about young men.

我所看到的、却认为未得到足够关注的新兴成瘾问题，让我觉得像一颗定时炸弹，那就是在线赌博。

And the addiction I see emerging that I don't think is getting enough attention that just feels like a ticking time bomb to me is online gambling.

我认为它如此危险的原因是我母亲曾在拉斯维加斯的贝拉吉奥当讲解员。

And the reason I think of it as being so dangerous is my mother was a docent at the Bellagio in Vegas.

所以她回家时总会带回来许多关于赌博成瘾的数据。

And so she used to come home with all these facts about gambling addiction.

她告诉我，你可以证实或否认这一点：赌博成瘾的自杀率最高，因为你很容易陷得极深。

And she told me, and you can confirm or deny this, that it has the highest suicide rate because you can get in so deep.

如果我染上了冰毒或酒精的瘾，通常周围的人会很快察觉并试图干预。

If I develop an addiction to meth or alcohol, it generally becomes pretty visible to the people around me and they intervene and try to do something.

但我在赌博上陷得再深，别人都可能一无所知。

I can get so deep with gambling and nobody knows.

然后我就深陷其中，无法自拔。

And then I get in so deep.

我花掉了孩子的大学基金，还拿房子做了抵押。

I've spent my kid's college fund, mortgage the house.

我的配偶不知道我做了什么。

My spouse doesn't know what I've done.

我看不出任何出路。

I see no way out.

我决定结束这一切。

I decide to end it.

我刚看到这些数据，50%的大学生都会赌超级碗。

And I've just seen these stats that 50% of college males bet on the Super Bowl.

我偶尔会遇到一种情况，身边是一群年轻人，他们都在看手机。

I see occasionally I'm in a scenario where I'm with a bunch of young men and they're all on their phones.

我想，哦，这很正常，人们就是这样。

And I think, oh, that's natural people.

我知道孩子们都盯着手机。

I know kids are on the phones.

他们都在赌他们正在看的比赛。

They're all gambling on the game they're watching.

他们下的注可不是一百美元。

And they're not doing a $100.

利物浦会赢阿森纳。

Liverpool will beat Arsenal.

他们每七分钟就赌一次。

They're gambling every seven minutes.

球会转手。

The ball's going to turn over.

你刚才说的关于裁判的事。

What you were saying about the ref.

我知道这些公司和设计这些算法的人，会找出谁会输钱，并鼓励他们下更多注。

And I know these companies and the people architecting these algorithms, they will figure out who's going to lose their money and encourage them to bet more.

而那些真正懂行的人，会被平台屏蔽掉。

And the ones who actually know what they're doing, they will block out of the platform.

所以这是一场收入上的必然损失。

So it's a guaranteed loss of income.

我喜欢赌博。

And I like to gamble.

我觉得这很有趣。

I think it's fun.

我去拉斯维加斯，赌一把，但我把它当作一种消费。

I go to Vegas, I gamble, but I assume it's consumption.

我默认自己会输光所有钱。

I assume I'm going to lose it all.

我突然想到，也许——请告诉我，我是不是有点言过其实、煽动性太强、夸大其词，或者只是太过担忧——我们会看到成千上万的年轻人，我觉得主要是年轻男性，当然，我也希望你能验证或否定这一点——他们比女性更容易陷入赌博成瘾，而这些女性则因为赌博应用无处不在，背负着巨大的财务负担和羞耻感。

It strikes me that we might, and tell me if I'm being just, I don't know, hyperbolic or inflammatory, or I don't know, exaggerating or just worrying too much here, that we're gonna have hundreds of thousands of young men, and my sense is young men, and again, I'd you to validate and nullify this, are much more prone to gambling addiction than women, who enter the world with massive financial hangovers and shame because of the constant presence of gambling apps.

你怎么看？

Your thoughts.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，我本来以为你肯定会提到在线色情内容，因为如果要评估当今男性面临的风险，我可能会把在线色情排在第一位，但在线赌博也会紧随其后。

So it's funny that you I I thought for sure you were gonna say online pornography because I I would probably put in terms of risks to men living in the world today, I would probably put that above online gambling, but I I I would make online gambling a close second.

而且你知道，要获得这方面的实际数据非常困难，但这基本上基于我临床观察到的印象。

And this you know, it's very hard to get actual data on this, but this is sort of based on my clinical impression of what I'm seeing.

当然，我接触的都是寻求治疗的人，但是的，这是一个巨大的问题。

Of course, I'm seeing treatment seekers, but, yeah, this is an enormous problem.

我总是喜欢先强调，绝大多数赌博者并不会对赌博上瘾，这一点对任何药物都适用。

I always like to start by emphasizing the vast majority of people who gamble will not get addicted to gambling, and that's true for any drug.

对吧？

Right?

所以大多数人能够控制自己的使用行为。

So most people will be able to moderate their use.

但和药物与酒精一样，大约有百分之十到二十的使用者会发展出成瘾。

But as with drugs and alcohol, about 20 well, ten to twenty percent of folks who consume will develop an addiction.

成瘾是一种脑部疾病，一种非常严重且可能危及生命的疾病。除非你自己经历过，或者亲眼见过你深爱的人陷入其中，否则你很难想象人们怎么会走到为了追求毒品而牺牲一切的地步，但事实就是这样。

An addiction is a brain disease, a very serious and potentially life threatening one, And until you've either experienced it yourself or seen it in somebody you care about deeply, it's really hard to imagine how people could get to a place where they would sacrifice everything in in pursuit of their drug, but that's exactly what happens.

那么，这种脆弱性究竟在哪里？

And so what is the vulnerability there?

有什么区别？

What is the difference?

你知道的。

You know?

风险通常我分为天性、养育和环境三类。

And and the and the risks, I usually classify into nature, nurture, and neighborhood.

天性方面，有些人天生更容易上瘾，但正如我们讨论过的，选择的药物类型很重要。

So nature, some people are inherently more vulnerable than others, but as we've talked about, drug of choice matters.

如果你遇到的药物是赌博，你可能永远不会对酒精上瘾，但赌博却可能毁了你。

If you meet your drug of choice, it's and it's gambling, you may never get addicted to alcohol, but gambling may just be the end of you.

共病的精神障碍会增加风险，因为存在一种自我治疗的错觉和循环。

Co occurring psychiatric disorders put put pays people at risk because of a kind of a self medication myth and cycle.

我们知道，创伤会增加成瘾的风险。

We know that trauma contributes to the risk of addiction.

这就是养育方面的因素。

That's the nurture part of it.

但邻里环境也非常关键，这同样是我们所处的生态系统。

But also neighborhood is really key, and this is, again, the ecosystem that we live in.

越容易获得你偏好的药物，你就越会大量使用，大脑改变也越显著，从而更可能发展成严重的成瘾。

The the easier it is to get your drug of choice, the more of it you'll use, the more you'll change your brain, and the more likely you will be to develop a very serious addiction.

所以，是的，我说的是，赌博无处不在。

So, yeah, I mean, gambling is everywhere.

有足够的数据支持你的看法，即男性比女性更多地陷入其中，尽管女性也会深受其害。

I there there's enough data to verify your impression that it's more men than women, although women also struggle with it.

在线色情内容也是如此。

The true the same is true for online pornography.

更多男性会对其上瘾，尽管女性也会患上色情和性成瘾。

More men than women develop an addiction to that, although women do develop pornography and sex addictions.

你知道，有些成瘾类型中女性比男性更容易受影响，比如在线购物和社交媒体。

You know, there are some addictions where women are more vulnerable than men, like online shopping and social media.

但在赌博和色情方面，男性显然更容易陷入成瘾。

But in terms of the gambling and pornography, definitely men are more vulnerable.

我完全同意你的观点，这是一个巨大且很大程度上被忽视的问题，正如你所说，羞耻感让这个问题更加复杂。在我们的文化中，仍普遍存在一种观念：一个男人变得富有和成功，就像是我们现代的英雄。因此，如果你没有做到这一点，或者——天啊——陷入了财务困境，想要开口寻求帮助会极其困难。

And I absolutely agree with you that this is a huge and largely unseen problem, complicated, as you say, by the shame issue, where for gambling addiction, there's still so much about, in our culture, about being a man who becomes wealthy and successful as sort of our modern day hero, that if you're somebody who's, you know, not done that or, you know, God forbid, gotten into financial trouble, very, very hard to come forward and ask for help.

坦白说，性成瘾和色情成瘾也是如此。

And frankly, the same is true with sex and pornography addiction.

我们普遍存在一种我认为是错误的文化观念，认为所有男性都是性掠夺者。

We have this prevailing cultural, I believe false notion, that all men are sexual predators.

因此，你可以想象，当一个人不得不站出来承认：‘我沉迷于性，我沉迷于色情，我观看这些类型的色情图像，它们让我兴奋’时，会有多么羞耻。

And so to come forward, you can only imagine the shame of somebody having to come forward and say, like, I'm addicted to sex, I'm addicted to pornography, or I watch, you know, these types of pornographic images, and they're stimulating for me.

这非常羞耻。

Very shameful.

这非常困难。

Very hard.

我曾有患者前来就诊，他们一开始说他们有某种药物问题，但其实那根本不是他们的主要问题。

I've had patients come in, and like on their you know, come in and say they had a problem with like some drug, which wasn't even their problem.

真正的问题是色情，他们花了四次就诊才终于坦白出来。

It was pornography, and it took them four visits to be able to admit it.

这是一个巨大、巨大的问题。

Huge, huge problem here.

而且，再次强调，获取的便利性、数量之多，都只需指尖轻触，这让我们这些天生倾向于追求愉悦、逃避痛苦的人类，难以抵抗这些极其强烈药物的诱惑。

And again, access, ease of access, quantity, it's all, you know, all at the touch of our fingertips, which just makes it very, very difficult for us as humans who are reflexively wired to approach pleasure and avoid pain to withstand the lure of these incredibly potent drugs.

有一些教授和学者正在研究游戏成瘾问题。

There are professors and academics such yourself looking at gaming.

我发现，要找到在色情内容方面有深入专业见解或经过同行评审的研究人员真的非常困难。

I found it really difficult to find anybody with deep domain expertise or peer reviewed research around porn.

我猜测，教授们并不想被人称为‘色情教授’。

And my assumption is that professors don't wanna be known as professor porn.

在学术界，这确实存在羞耻感。

That there's actually shame in the academic community.

没人想成为那个‘家伙’或‘女士’。

You don't wanna be that guy or gal.

就像别人会问：‘你为什么决定研究这个，教授？’

It's like, well, why did you decide to do that professor?

我认为这是互联网上第二大类别。

It's the second largest category, I think, on the internet.

与它的规模相比，相关研究却少得荒谬，几乎空白。

And relative to the size of it, there's ridiculous scant amount or dearth of research around it.

我原本以为，或者我读过的某些内容提到，只有少数人消费了不成比例的大量色情内容，大多数年轻男性和年轻女性都能自我调节。

I had thought that, or some of the stuff I've read is that it's a small population consuming a disproportionate amount of porn, that most men, young men, and young women are able to modulate it.

我一直以来对这个问题的担忧是，我必须非常坦诚。

My fear around it has always been that, just being very transparent.

我每天去加州大学洛杉矶分校校园的原因之一，是因为我知道我该去上课，但第二个原因是，我期待着可能遇到某个人，长远来看愿意和我发生关系。

One of the reasons I went on campus every day at UCLA was one, because I knew I was supposed to go to class, but two, the prospect that I might meet someone who over the medium or long term would decide to have sex with me.

是的。

Yeah.

你听起来像我儿子。

You sound like my son.

嗯，我

Well, I

我觉得我听起来就像让我这么讲吧。

think I sound like let me go this way.

我听起来就像大多数儿子心里想的那样。

I sound like most sons in their head.

我觉得我把这一点说得很模糊。

And I think I disarticulate it.

如果我家里能接触到色情内容，我几乎可以肯定我不会每周五天都待在校园里。

And if I'd had porn available at home, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have been on campus five days a week.

我可能只会去四天、三天或者两天，因为实际情况是，我太渴望性了，荷尔蒙又如此旺盛，以至于我愿意承担社交风险，走出去尝试结识他人。

I might've gone to four or three or two, because it just might've been, I mean, the reality is I wanted sex so badly and my hormones were raging so much that I was willing to take social risk and go out and try and meet people.

顺便说一句，我认为有这样的想法其实非常健康：我愿意去承担这些风险。

And by the way, I think that's really healthy to think, I wanna take these risks.

我想结识他人，希望能一起喝杯咖啡、邀请参加派对、建立关系，并在某个阶段或许发生那样的身体接触。

I wanna meet people in hopes that I can have a coffee, invite to a party, establish a relationship, and at some point along the way, maybe have those types of physical encounters.

我觉得这真的、真的非常健康。

I think that is really, really healthy.

我担心的是，也想听听你的看法，真正把美国在这方面的状况搞砸的，不是那些重度成瘾者。

And I worry that, and curious to get your take, that it's not the hardcore addicts that are screwing up America around this stuff.

而是这种现象在大量年轻男性中普遍蔓延，削弱了他们与他人建立联系的意愿——我们正在演化出一种新的、无性且社交回避的男性群体，他们从未被归类为成瘾者，也从未得到临床诊断，却一生孤独，从未发展出这些社交技能？

It's that it just decreases across an enormous population of young men, their willingness to establish connections with others, that we're evolving and we're maturing a new species of asexual, asocial males that never get categorized or clinically diagnosed as addicts but are just alone their whole lives and never develop these skills?

是否存在一种低强度的形式，我甚至不想称之为成瘾，而是一种回避或替代机制，这种机制可能比我们传统所认定的成瘾更具破坏性？

Is there a low level form of I don't even wanna call it addiction, but avoidance or replacement theory that could be even more damaging than what we think of as traditionally diagnosed addiction.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

而且有数据支持这一点。

And there are data to support this.

尽管我们的性观念已经如此开放，但年轻人如今的性行为频率却比以往任何时候都低。

So young people are having for all our liberated sexual mores, young people are having less sex today than ever before.

许多年轻男性表示，他们觉得如今的约会和性关系社交环境充满不确定性，如同地雷阵，因此他们最终选择待在家里，观看色情内容并自慰。

And many young men will report that they feel like the social landscape out there when it comes to dating and having sex is so uncertain and such a landmine that they just end up staying home watching pornography and masturbating.

对于那些将此作为依赖对象的脆弱人群，这种情况可能发展到他们根本无法停止的地步。

And for folks who are vulnerable to that as their drug of choice, it can evolve to the point where they literally cannot stop.

和任何药物一样，随着时间推移，他们需要更强烈的形式。

Like with any drug, they need more potent forms over time.

所以色情内容演变为聊天室。

So pornography becomes chat rooms.

聊天室又演变为线下见面、找妓女、儿童色情内容。

Chat rooms become, you know, meeting in person, prostitutes, child pornography.

我的意思是，这现在是个大问题，顺便说一句，我觉得你这里提到的观点很对——这种现象如此普遍，我们几乎都称它为一种流行病了。

I mean, this is a huge issue right now of and and and by the way, I think your your point here about it being so widespread that we can hardly even call it it's like an endemic disease.

这根本不是什么罕见疾病。

You know, it's not even like a rare disease.

就在上个月，有两位母亲给我打电话，她们绝望至极，因为她们的儿子被发现浏览儿童色情内容。

I have had, you know, in the last little bit of, like, last month, two mothers call me who are in desperation because their sons have been identified as viewers of child pornography.

这些是正在观看少女的青少年男孩，现在却面临可能的重罪指控。

Now these are teenage boys who are watching teenage girls and who now are facing potential felony.

所以我认为，整个社会体系根本没为这种行为如此普遍、如此常态化的情况做好准备。

So I I just think that the whole system is not set up for the degree to which this behavior has become so widespread, so normative.

我的意思是，我们不能把所有这些年轻人定为重罪，我绝不是在支持儿童色情或青少年色情内容。

I mean, we can't be convicting all of these young men of felonies, and I'm not I'm not by any means endorsing child pornography or teen pornography.

我的个人观点是，这一切都毫无益处，原因有很多。

You know, my my personal opinion is that none of it's good for so many reasons.

但问题是，我们的司法系统现在却要将一名18岁男孩因观看17岁女孩的色情内容而定罪，并可能让他终身背负性犯罪者的污名。

But the the issue is we have a court system who is now looking to convict an 18 year old boy for viewing pornography of a 17 year old girl and and facing, like, being a lifetime sex man.

我们的法律体系显然没有跟上当前发生的变化，而制造并从中获利的科技公司却完全没有为此承担责任。

Like, our legal system has clearly not caught up with what is happening, and the corporations that make and profit from these media are not remotely being held responsible for what's going on.

我的意思是，这确实是已经蔓延到极其普遍程度的问题。

I mean, this is this is really endemic proportion problems.

而且，是的，说到创造，我把智能手机称为我们的自慰机器，我确实是这个意思，从字面到隐喻的每一个层面。

And, yeah, in terms of create you know, it's kind of a I mean, I talk about the smartphone as our masturbation machines, and I I mean that, like, in every sense of the word.

它们就是这样的东西。

That's what they are.

我们正在利用互联网和这些设备，来满足过去必须依靠他人来实现的各种需求。

We're we're using the Internet and these devices to meet all of these needs that used to require other people.

而将人们联系在一起的部分原因在于我们的相互依赖和彼此需要。

And and part of what connects people together is our interdependency, our mutual need.

如果我们不需要他人，就不会费心去与他们互动，因为这需要付出巨大的努力，过程复杂、模糊且充满痛苦——毕竟，我们每个人都是如此复杂。

If we didn't need other people, we wouldn't bother to do the work to go interact with them because it's a heck of a lot of work, and it's complicated, and and it's, you know, it's ambiguous, and it's painful, you know, because of all the ways in which we're all so complicated.

所以，这确实是个大问题。

So, yeah, this is a huge problem.

我们正在造就一代‘鼹鼠人’，就像鼹鼠这种动物一样，从不外出，永远躲在自己的小洞里。

We we're like we're like we're we're creating a generation of mole people as in mole the animals who who never go out and never leave their little hidey holes.

太可怕了。

Super scary.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

在疫情初期的一段短暂时间里——我很抱歉不得不让你回忆起这段时光——当时出现了一款热门新应用，承诺彻底改变我们对社交媒体的认知。

For a brief period of time in the beginning of the pandemic, a time that I'm very sorry to make you have to remember, there was this hot new app that promised to reinvent the way that we thought about social media forever.

Clubhouse 将成为那个改变一切的存在。

Clubhouse was going to be the thing.

本周在《版本历史》这档探讨科技史上最具意思、最重要、最棒也最糟产品的聊天节目中，我们将讨论Clubhouse为何兴起，以及最终为何衰落。

And this week on Version History, our chat show about the most interesting and important and best and worst products in tech history, we're talking about why Clubhouse took off and then ultimately why it went away.

《版本历史》可在YouTube和各大播客平台收听。

That's on Version History available on YouTube and wherever you get podcasts.

大家好！

What's up, everybody?

我是卡姆·海沃德，匹兹堡钢人队的队长，也是《不只是足球》节目的主持人。

It's Cam Hayward, your Steelers captain and host of Not Just Football.

本周，我们请来了传奇人物。

And this week, we brought on the legend.

小韦恩到场了。

Lil Wayne is in the building.

他是当今最伟大的说唱歌手、铁杆球迷，现在还创办了自己的体育经纪公司——Young Money Sports。

Greatest rapper alive, certified football head, and now running his own sports agency, Young Money Sports.

我们聊了聊他的创业起点、愿景，以及特拉维斯·亨特为何最终选择了Young Money。

We got to know how it started, what the vision is, and how Travis Hunter ended up choosing Young Money.

我们深入探讨了橄榄球、绿湾包装工队、选秀即将来到匹兹堡、NIL政策，以及从零开始打造运动员品牌究竟需要什么。

We went deep in the football, the packers, the draft coming to Pittsburgh, NIL, and what it really takes to build an athlete's brand from the ground up.

我们聊了音乐、卡特六代、接下来的计划，还有你从未听过的那些故事。

We talked music, the Carter six, what's coming next, and stories you have never heard before.

我们还谈到了他的传奇生涯。

And we got into his legacy.

新奥尔良，11岁就加入Cash Money，25岁登顶巅峰，是什么仍在驱动着他？

New Orleans, cash money at 11 years old, 25 at the top, and what still drives him?

这一期与众不同。

This one is different.

这一期特别非凡。

This one is special.

在匹兹堡，选秀即将回家。

In Pittsburgh, the draft is coming home.

4月23日，前往notjustfootball.com购买卡姆·哈耶德的选秀派对门票，并使用代码mister Carter。

Grab your ticket for Cam Hayward's draft party on April 23 at notjustfootball.com and use code mister Carter.

输入 m r c a r t e r 可享受预售折扣，并在社交媒体上关注我们。

That is m r c a r t e r for a presale discount and follow us on socials.

开始吧。

Let's get it.

我们继续带来与安娜·莱姆克博士的更多对话。

We're back with more from doctor Anna Lembke.

我想转向解决方案，我确信你会收到来自华盛顿特区和萨克拉门托政府官员的电话，向你寻求这方面的建议。

I wanna move to solutions, and I'm sure you get calls from government officials in DC and Sacramento who ask for your advice on this stuff.

我认为，如果非要我选一件事来尝试营造一个减少成瘾的环境，那就是‘第三空间’。

I think most of this, if I if I could think of one thing to try and set a context that would reduce addiction, it would be third spaces.

也就是说，尽可能让年轻人经常与同龄人，以及潜在的导师、朋友和伴侣在一起。

And that is trying to get as many young people as often as possible in the company of other young people and in the company of potential mentors, friends, and mates.

在10月7日之后，我去了以色列，在诺瓦音乐节遗址或纪念地。

I was in Israel after October 7 at the Nova Music Festival site or memorial.

我遇到了一支以色列国防军的士兵连队。

And I met with an idea, a battalion of IDF soldiers.

那里有这些年轻、体格出众的120个孩子，年龄在19到21岁之间，户外相聚在一起。

And there were these young, extraordinary fit, 120 kids, 19 to 21 outdoors in the company of each other.

他们中的许多人后来一起创业，成为终身好友。

Many of them go on to start businesses together, lifelong friends.

很多人在户外服役、投身于比自己更宏大的事业时，找到了伴侣。

A lot of them meet their spouses outdoors, serving in the agency of something bigger than themselves.

我当时就想，我觉得这些年轻人最终成为成瘾者的可能性不会那么多。

And I thought, I just don't think nearly as many of these young adults are gonna end up addicts.

于是我想到，我们如何能以各种方式将这种模式推广一百万次？无论是继续教育、垒球联赛、教会、非营利组织，也就是所谓的第三空间。

And I thought, how can we do this a million times in different ways, whether it's continuing education, softball league, church, nonprofit, like third spaces.

如果只能做一件事，我会选择第三空间。

If I could do one thing, it would be third spaces.

最关键的一件事是什么？

What is the one thing?

你对此有什么看法？你最想做的一两件事是什么，来营造一个成功和避免成瘾的环境？

Your thoughts on that, and what is the one or two things you would wanna do to set up a context of success and addiction avoidance?

因为我们天生被设计为追求快乐、逃避痛苦，所以我们需要创造一些空间，让人们能够接触到健康的快乐来源，并有足够的挑战性，让这些需要一定摩擦感的生物觉得有趣；同时，这些空间还应限制我们接触不健康的快乐来源，比如我们之前讨论过的各种成瘾物质带来的即时多巴胺刺激。

Because we are creatures innately designed to approach pleasure and avoid pain, we need to create spaces where we have access to healthy sources of pleasure and sufficient challenge to make that interesting enough for us that we creatures who need a certain degree of friction find it interesting, and also spaces that limit our access to unhealthy sources of pleasure, unhealthy dopamine, as in the instant pleasures of the the various intoxicants we've been talking about.

我喜欢第三空间这个想法，但听起来似乎有点精英化，像是只适合富裕阶层的。

So I love the idea of third spaces, but, you know, it it sounds a little rarefied like it would be for the elite and the wealthy.

我们完全有可能在公立学校系统中创建这些第三空间，因为孩子们大部分的生活时间都花在这里。

We have the potential to create those third spaces in the public school system where kids spend the vast majority of their lived hours.

学校项目？

School programs?

甚至不是放学后。

Not even after school.

而是在上课期间。

During school.

我们该如何实现这一点？

How can we do that?

让智能手机从早到晚都远离学校。

Get smartphones out of schools bell to bell.

创造一些动手的机会，恢复以前的课程，比如我不太喜欢汽修课，但至少我们以前有。

Create give give hands on bring back what happened to I mean, I didn't like, you know, auto shop, but at least we had it.

你知道的。

You know?

我的意思是，多开些艺术课，多搞点动手的活动。

I mean, let let's have more art, more hands on stuff.

开设写作课，禁止他们使用聊天机器人，让他们真正地写作——当然不是说我们永远不该用这些工具，但现在学校里一切都数字化了。

Let's have writing classes where they're not allowed to use chat d TTP, and they get real you know, not to say that we should never use those tools, but everything's gone online in the schools.

一切都数字化了。

It's all digitized.

我们正在通过观看别人做事情来学习一切。

We're we're learning everything by watching somebody else do something.

孩子们需要亲自动手，而学校正是实现这一点的默认场所，这意味着在上学期间要让他们远离数字毒品。

Kids need to do, and schools are the place, the default place to make that happen, which means getting the digital drugs out of their hands during school time hours.

我也非常支持年龄验证。

I'm also a huge believer in age verification.

我们必须认识到，数字媒体对易感人群来说是一种毒品。

We have to recognize that digital media is a drug for the vulnerable.

易感人群包括大脑正在发育的孩子。

The vulnerable include a kid with a developing brain.

我们不能让五岁的孩子每天在iPad上待八个小时。

We cannot have five year olds on iPads for eight hours a day.

你觉得这个数字应该是多少？

What do you think that number is?

是16岁吗？

Is it 16?

是12岁吗？

Is it 12?

那应该是多少？

What is it?

我认为至少应该是13岁。

I think it's at minimum at minimum 13.

即使如此，我认为还需要更多的保护措施。

And and even then, I think there has to be a lot more in terms of guardrails.

所以我们真的需要真正的年龄验证，就是那种真正的验证，比如通过第三方网站注册。

So we really need real age verification, like the real deal, you know, where you have, like, a third party site you register.

我知道这在隐私方面存在很多问题，但我很抱歉。

And I know there's a lot of problems with that in terms of people's privacy, but I'm sorry.

为了保护那些脆弱的少数群体，我们社会中已经做出了很多牺牲，我们本来就不允许孩子开车、购买枪支、进入赌场赌博、买香烟、买酒精或吸毒。

We make a lot of sacrifices to protect the vulnerable few as we should do in our society, and we already don't let kids drive cars, buy firearms, go into casinos and gamble, buy cigarettes, buy alcohol, buy drugs.

我们

We

已经可以参军了。

already Join the military.

是的。

Yeah.

我们到了一定年龄就能做很多事情。

We age get a lot of things.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，我们认识到孩子的大脑尚在发育，前额叶尚未完全连接，如果放任他们肆意妄为，地球上孩子的数量会少得多。

Like, we we recognize that kids have vulnerable brains and that their frontal lobe isn't fully connected and that, you know, if we just let them run amok, we would have many fewer kids on the planet.

而且我们必须保护我们的孩子。

And we would, you know, we gotta protect our kids.

所以这就是我的看法。

So that's what I think.

医生，您有孩子吗？

Do you have kids, doctor?

我有，是的。

I do, yeah.

您有什么建议吗？

And what advice would you have?

我有时很难分辨哪些是正常的青少年行为，因为在我看来，这些行为其实并不正常。

I find it difficult sometimes to discern between normal adolescent behavior, which is abnormal as far as I can tell.

当我应该担心的时候，比如他把手机带进浴室看TikTok，假装在浴室待上十到二十分钟。

And when I should be worried, when I should think, okay, he takes his phone into the bathroom to watch TikTok and pretends he's in the bathroom for ten, twenty minutes.

明白了。

Okay.

这是14岁孩子的正常行为，还是我应该担心？

Is this 14 year old behavior or should I be worried?

作为一名曾经的家长，我想知道，我不知道你的孩子多大，但就成瘾而言，你有什么建议吗？有没有一些关键的信号或成功因素，或者孩子行为中的警示标志，能帮助你区分哪些行为只是需要纠正——比如‘别老待在浴室里了’，而哪些行为则说明情况已经严重，可能需要专业干预？

And as someone who's been a parent and like what pieces of advice, I don't know how old your children are, but as it relates to addiction, are there any sort of unlocks or critical success factors or red flags in your child's behavior where you can help discern the difference between what you'll call, not necessarily behavior we shouldn't correct, you know, get out of the bathroom enough already, but where you probably think, okay, this is getting serious and might require professional intervention.

是的。

Yeah.

目前还没有血液检测或脑部扫描可以诊断成瘾。

So there's no blood test or brain scan to diagnose addiction.

我们依据的是现象学，也就是所谓的《精神障碍诊断与统计手册》（DSM），简而言之就是‘四个C’：失控、强迫、渴求和后果，尤其是明知有后果仍继续使用。

We we base it on a phenomenology on on what's called the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which which briefly summarized is the four c's, control, compulsions, cravings, and consequences, especially continued use despite consequences.

问题是，很多孩子会使用物质或参与成瘾行为，却并没有明显的后果。

The problem is that a lot of kids use substances, engage in addictive behaviors, and don't have obvious consequences.

在那个年龄很难判断，因为他们还小，恢复力强，而且很擅长隐藏。

So it's very hard to tell at that age because they're young, they're resilient, and they're good at hiding it.

所以，虽然这些标准在DSM中找不到，但我认为需要注意的一个预警信号是撒谎和其他反社会行为，除非孩子明显已经失控；如果你的孩子看起来没有明显崩溃，但你心里有些疑虑，那就留意这些迹象。

So although you won't find these criteria in the DSM, I think a warning sign to look for, unless there are obvious signs of unraveling, but if you've got a kid who, you know, isn't obviously unraveling, but you're kinda wondering, is look for lying and other antisocial behavior.

同样，你在任何精神科诊断手册中都找不到这些内容，但我认为这些是孩子或家庭出现状况的重要软性信号。

Again, you won't find that in any psychiatric diagnostic manual, but I think those are very important soft signs of something going wrong with the kid or in the family.

所有人都会撒谎。

Now all people lie.

普通成年人每天会说一到两个小谎。

The average adult tells one to two lies per day.

这些谎言通常是一些无关紧要的小谎，比如掩饰自己的自私和缺点，而青少年确实也会撒谎。

These tend to be small little lies about, you know, hiding our own selfishness and foibles, and teenagers definitely lie.

但如果你发现孩子系统性地撒谎，隐瞒行踪、交往对象或活动内容，甚至表现出反社会行为、无礼、敌意或暴怒，

But if you get a kind of a more significant systematic lying about where I've been, who I was with, what I was doing, or even just kind of antisocial behavior, rudeness, hostility, rage.

这些才是我认为我们应该留意的潜在警示信号，表明孩子可能出了问题。

These are the things that I think, you know, we should look for as potential warning signs for something going wrong with our kid.

最后一个问题是，医生，您已经非常慷慨地分享了您的时间。

Last question, doctor, and you've been very generous with your time.

非常好奇想听听您对GLP-1药物的看法。

Very curious to get your thoughts and take on GLP one drugs.

GLP-1药物非常令人兴奋。

GLP one drugs are super exciting.

我很高兴它们出现了。

I'm really glad they're here.

它们并非对每个人在所有时候都有效，因为我们每个人都是独特的，拥有各自独特的大脑。

They don't work for everyone all the time because we're all unique, and we have these unique brains.

但我们拥有的工具越多，就越能帮助抑制某些人身上出现的成瘾性思维，这越好。

But the more tools we have to stop the kind of addiction chatter that happens for some people, the better.

正如您所知，GLP-1激动剂已被FDA批准用于治疗糖尿病和肥胖症。

As you know, GLP one agonists are FDA approved to treat diabetes and obesity.

它们调节胃排空，减缓胃部内容物的流动，让人更容易感到饱腹，同时也能作用于大脑的奖赏通路。

They modulate stomach emptying, slow down, you know, the gastric flow, and make people feel more full, but they also work on the brain's reward pathway.

它们调节多巴胺释放——我们的奖励神经递质，目前有大量活跃的研究正在探索其在各类成瘾中的广泛应用，尤其是酒精成瘾，同时也有初步证据表明它们对尼古丁成瘾、阿片类物质使用障碍有益，这非常有趣，还包括赌博和性行为等行为成瘾。

They modulate dopamine release, our reward neurotransmitter, and there is very active research now looking at their use broadly in addictions for most alcohol addiction, but also there's some preliminary evidence for benefit with nicotine addiction with opioid use disorder, which is really interesting, as well as behavioral addictions like gambling and sex.

在我们的诊所中，我们偶尔会超适应症使用这些药物来治疗对常规疗法无效的酒精使用障碍。

We are using them off label occasionally in our clinic for treatment refractory alcohol use disorder.

这些是那些已经尝试过所有方法来应对酒精成瘾的人，我们在一些患者身上看到了不错的疗效。

This is folks who have tried everything for their alcohol addiction, and we're getting some good traction in a few of our folks.

但也有一些人尝试后觉得效果并不明显。

Other folks try it and don't find it that helpful.

所以，你知道，不可能有任何一种药能成为万能神药。

So, you know, nothing is going to be like the miracle drug.

我认为GLP-1药物也不会是，但它们是一种令人兴奋的新进展，对于食物成瘾，以及可能的其他成瘾，它们可能非常有效。

I don't think GLP ones will either, but they're exciting new development, and they, can be very effective for food addiction and potentially, other addictions as well.

安娜·兰布克医生是斯坦福大学医学院的精神病学教授。

Doctor Anna Lembke is a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.

她还是畅销书《多巴胺国度：在放纵时代寻找平衡》的作者。

She's also the author of the bestselling book, Dopamine Nation, Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence.

我非常享受这次对话，你正在做如此重要的工作，而且你身上有一种非常亲切的气质。

I really enjoyed this conversation, and you're doing such important work, and you have such a nice vibe about you.

你身上散发着十足的可信度，我能理解为什么你有如此大的影响力——因为我发现自己完全被你的一言一行吸引，感觉你真的只是在公正地评判对错，而不是在演戏。

You have you just reek of credibility, and I can see why you're having such an impact because I find myself just hanging on every word because I get the sense that you are really, I don't know, a good actor trying to trying to just call balls and strikes.

非常感谢你的出色工作，也感谢这次愉快的对话，医生。

Really appreciate your good work and enjoy the conversation, doctor.

《幸福的代数》这本书，我之前有一段时间没怎么关注，但现在我又开始辅导年轻男性了。

Algebra of Happiness, I starting I had a bit of a gap, but I'm starting to coach young men again.

昨晚还真有个年轻人来找我，他三十出头，在广告科技行业非常出色，赚了不少钱，一直跟踪我，想让我当他的导师。

And I actually had a kid that come up to me last night, this guy in his early 30s, super impressive in the ad tech market, making real good money, and kind of stalking me and asking me to be his mentor.

最后我只好对他说：兄弟，你其实不需要我的帮助。

And finally, just said, dude, you don't need my help.

我真正想关注的，坦白说，是那些正在挣扎的男性。

And who I'm trying to focus on are quite frankly, men who are struggling.

我其实已经接手了几个和我同龄的男性，他们正在努力重塑自我，而且正面临困难。

And I've actually taken on a couple men my age who are trying to reinvent themselves, who are struggling.

但我正在做这个练习，它带来了实实在在的益处，尤其是对年轻男性。

But I'm doing this exercise and it's yielding real benefits, especially with young men.

我刚看到一个数据，让我深受触动：超过一半的18至24岁男性从未当面邀请过女性约会。

And that is, I was just struck by the stat I read that over half of men ages 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person.

他们只会右滑，对吧？

They'll swipe right, right?

他们会发邮件，或者做其他类似的事情，又或者谁知道呢，去Craigslist上找人。

They'll email somebody or whatever it might be, or they'll, who knows, like go on Craigslist and get whatever.

但大多数18到24岁的男性，从未当面邀请过女性约会。

But the majority of men, 18 to 24, have not asked a woman out in person.

这让我感到震惊，也让我非常难过和沮丧。

And that just rattled me and made me so upset and sad.

当我回想自己18到24岁的时候，我会主动让自己置身于更容易有机会邀请女性约会的环境里。

When I think about 18 24 for me was putting myself in an environment where I'd have a greater likelihood of being able to ask a woman out.

我会找一个能主动邀请女性约会、能应对拒绝、或能取得成功的人。

And I show me someone who can ask a woman out or handle the rejection or be successful at.

我要给你展示一个人。

I'm gonna show you someone.

任何在酒吧里表现优秀的人，在会议室里也会表现优秀。

Anyone who's good in a bar is good in a boardroom.

我认为这是年轻男性的一项关键技能。

I think it's a key skill for young men.

因此，我一直在做的练习，我经常提到这一点，首先是，我们要变得健康。

And so the exercise I've been doing, and I talk a lot about this, is one, we're going to get fit.

其次，不管做什么，我们都要开始赚点钱，比如开Lyft或做TaskRabbit。

Two, we're going to start making a little bit of money no matter what it is, Lyft driver, TaskRabbit.

第三，我们要让自己经常置身于陌生人的环境中，参与一些比个人更大的事情，比如教会团体、垒球联赛、非营利组织，等等。

Three, we're going to put ourselves in a context, in an environment with strangers regularly, in the context of something bigger than you, whether it's a church group, softball league, nonprofit, whatever it might be.

这就是我们要做的事情。

And this is what we're gonna do.

如果你现在是个年轻男性，这就是我建议你去做的。

And this is what I were gonna recommend if you're a young man right now.

我需要你去接近一个陌生人，表达出想要建立友谊或探索浪漫关系的意愿。

I need you to approach a stranger and express interest in friendship or exploring a romantic relationship.

这些词听起来很奇怪。

And those are weird words.

你根本不会这么说。

You would never say that.

嘿，这个周末你有什么安排？

Hey, what are you doing this weekend?

要不要一起出来，去酒吧看场球赛？

Do wanna get together or go to a bar, watch the game?

嗨，你会不会聊起你的围巾，或者你根本没戴围巾？

Hi, would you lay on your wrap or develop your wrap or lack thereof?

你会不会提到一起喝杯咖啡或者喝点什么的？

Would you mention grabbing coffee or grabbing a drink, what have you?

但这并不是成功。

And that's not the win.

这并不是练习的重点。

That's not the exercise.

真正的成功是我需要你去了解对方。

The win is I need you to get to know.

不幸的是，这种情况经常发生。

And unfortunately that happens a lot.

对吧？

Right?

我要你去接近某人，尽你所能，尝试一下，打个招呼，然后直接问：你想一起去喝杯咖啡吗？

And that is, I want you to go up to someone, do your best, try, say hi, and shoot, would you like to have coffee?

然后第二天给我打电话，接下来会发生什么。

And then call me the next day and this is what's going to happen.

大多数情况下，对方的回答都会是拒绝。

Most of the time the answer will have been a no.

这通常是委婉的拒绝，但多半还是拒绝。

It's usually a applied no, but it's usually a no.

然后我会问，你怎么样？

And then I'm going say, how are you?

这就是你要告诉我的。

And this is what you're going to tell me.

你要说，嗯，我有点沮丧，觉得失落，但总体来说，我还好。

You're to say, well, I'm upset, I'm bummed, but yeah, on the whole, I'm fine.

这才是胜利。

That's the victory.

这才是回报。

That's the payoff.

因为事情是这样的。

Because here's the thing.

拒绝是通往成功的途径，尤其是你愿意让自己身处不断被拒绝的环境中。

No is the way to success, specifically your willingness to put yourself in a room where you get no's.

如果你没有被拒绝，那就说明你待错了地方。

If you're not getting no's, it means you're in the wrong room.

你错过的所有机会，都是因为你没有尝试。

And you miss all the shots you don't take.

拒绝的次数。

The number of nos.

拒绝是你通往肯定与成功的道路。

Nos are your path to yes and success.

所以，这就是胜利。

So here's the victory.

你表达了对友谊的兴趣。

You express an interest in friendship.

你表达了对浪漫关系的兴趣，然后得到了拒绝。

You express an interest in romantic relationship, and you get to the no.

这就是胜利，因为你发现：你没事，对方也没事，下次再遭遇拒绝时，痛苦会减轻一些——无论是申请一份你并不合格的工作，还是邀请可能能指导你或帮助你的人共进午餐，又或是向你生理和情感上都吸引的人表达好感。

And that's the victory because you find out, you find out you're fine, they're fine, and it hurts a little less the next time you get to a no, whether it's inquiring about a job you're not qualified for, whether it's expressing interest in lunch with someone who might be able to mentor you or help you, whether it's expressing interest in someone that you are physically and romantically attracted to.

我之所以能过上我现在的生活，能与一位品格更高尚、外貌更出众的人相伴，正是因为那些拒绝。

The reason I'm staying or get to live the life I lead and I get to partner with someone who is much higher character and much hotter than me was no.

具体来说，我愿意面对大量的拒绝，然后哀悼、继续前行，挺过去。

Specifically, my willingness to get to a shit ton of no's and then mourn and move on and get through them.

成功的秘诀是什么？

What is the key to success?

拒绝。

No.

本集由詹妮弗·桑切斯制作。

This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.

我们的实习生是丹·沙隆。

Our intern is Dan Shalon.

德鲁·布罗尔斯是我们的技术总监。

Drew Burrows is our technical director.

感谢您收听来自Vox Media播客网络的《预言播客》。

Thank you for listening to the Prophecy Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

我们将在周六与您再见，届时将由乔治·哈恩为您朗读《毫不留情，毫不怨恨》。

We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice as read by George Hahn.

请在您收听播客的平台关注我们的ProfG Markets节目，每周一和周四更新新集。

And please follow our ProfG Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.