学校正在教孩子错误的东西——泰德·丁特史密斯

有很多男孩在系统中就这样没能完成学业。

lot of boys through the system that they just don't finish.

你知道的。

You know?

这简直让人痛心。

And it's just like and it's heartbreaking.

有趣的是，你的观点和我听到的公众讨论略有不同。

What's interesting is your view is a little bit different than the public discourse I'm hearing.

现在有很多人谈论回归基础。

There's a lot of talk about going back to the basics.

看看密西西比州和路易斯安那州，让我们回到基础。

Look at Mississippi and Louisiana, let's return to the basics.

你所说的其实是需要进化，而不是倒退，不是回归基础，而是要释放这种潜能——我说的‘潜能’是积极意义上的。

And what you're saying is there needs to be an evolution, not a devolution, not a return to the basics, but we need to kind of unlock the beast, and I say the beast in a in a positive way.

我们需要释放出创造性的天性。

We need to unlock the creative animal.

你怎么做呢？

How do you do that?

你如何在大规模情况下认识到，并不是每个人都能上斯坦福，或者获得工程学硕士学位呢？

How do you, especially at scale, recognize that not everyone is gonna go to Stanford and gonna, you know, get a master's in engineering?

我们三分之二的孩子最终都不会获得传统的文科学位。

Two two thirds of our kids are not gonna end up with traditional liberal arts college degrees.

对于上大学的孩子，是有条路的，对吧？

There's a path for the kid going to college, right?

你上大学，拿到学位，然后去职业服务中心参加那50家公司的面试，心想，我室友想当投资银行家，那我也当投资银行家吧。

You go to college, you get a degree, you interview with one of the 50 firms that come to the Career Services Center, and you think, oh, my roommate wants to be an investment banker, so I'll be an investment banker.

我不喜欢那样，我学的是商科，但我有自己的路。

I don't like it, I go to business, I had a path.

你所建议的是，尤其是在创业领域，为那些特立独行的人提供了一条替代路径。

And what you're suggesting is that especially in entrepreneurship, there is an alternative path for the rogue.

你提到的关于叛逆者在这个世界中扮演的角色，这一点很有趣。

And what's interesting what you said about, you know, the rebel has a role in this world.

我想我曾在某处读到过，哈佛大学的贝克学者——那些学术表现最优异的学生——在二三十年后，反而不如其他人过得好。

I think I read somewhere that the Baker Scholars, the top performing academic scholars at Harvard, actually twenty, thirty years on weren't doing as well as everyone else.

我想问题是，我们如何在教育体系中制度化并规模化这种激发创造力的能力？

I guess the question is how do you institutionalize and scale this ability to unlock the creative beast in our educational institutions?

你知道，这项研究也得到了验证。

You know, too, and that study was verified.

而且作为一名风投人士多年，我特别喜欢投资那些在学校里走偏了路的人。

And and and I have to say as a venture guy for years, I love to back people who had gone rogue on school.

你知道，有人曾对我说：‘埃克塞特、普林斯顿、哈佛商学院’，我就会说：‘去麦肯锡找份工作吧。’

You know, I I avoided you know, like, somebody said to me, Exeter, Princeton, Harvard Business School, I'd say, like, go get a job at McKinsey.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为，再次强调，这并不是因为他们不够有才华。

Because, again, it's it's not that they're not talented.

也不是因为他们不够努力。

It's not that they're not hardworking.

他们是的。

They are.

但经历那个过程、应付那些条条框框，并不利于培养出‘我要另辟蹊径、改变世界’的心态。

But but going through that process and jumping through the hoops put in front of you isn't conducive to a mindset that says, I'm gonna go rogue and change the world.

那么你该怎么做呢？

So how do you do it?

我会说有三点。

I'd say three things.

第一，你不必彻底改变——我的意思是，我花了十五年希望学校能非常有创新性，但事实证明这很难。

One is you don't have to change I mean, I've spent fifteen years hoping that schools would be very innovative, and it's it's proven to be difficult.

但我认为，你不必改变一切。

But I say, you don't have to change everything.

但如果我们说，每个学生在学年结束时都要完成一个能展现他们最佳状态的结业项目呢？

But what if we said each kid coming through school by the end of their school year would create a capstone project that shows them at their best?

你知道，一个他们认为值得解决的重要问题，或值得创造的重要机会，在这个过程中他们能学到关键技能，尝试、失败、再尝试、再失败、再尝试，但到了五月，无论如何，他们都能拿出一件可以展示的作品，而学校则举办一场完整的成果展。

You know, something that they viewed that would be an important problem to solve or opportunity to create where they would be learning important skills in the process, trying it, failing, trying it, failing, trying it, failing, but by May, damn it all, they have something they could display, and the school does an entire display.

这一点在我的第一部电影《极有可能成功》中有所展现，那些孩子们充满自豪，大人们看到后都说：‘哇，你们做到了。’

And we show that in my first film, Most Likely to Succeed, where these kids are bursting with pride, and the adults are coming in saying like, wow, you did that.

如果我们这么做，至少能培养我们每个孩子的创业精神。

Like, if we did that, we'd start to at least nourish the entrepreneurial aspect of all of our kids.

有些人会表现得非常出色，有些人则不然，但我认为所有人都会从中受益。

Some will do really well, some won't, but I think they would all benefit from that.

这将是第一点。

That that would be the first point.

第二点是重新思考问责机制，我们几分钟前已经讨论过这一点。

The second thing is to really rethink accountability, and we talked about that a few minutes ago.

当我们过度关注数学和阅读成绩这些狭隘的指标时——我一再看到这种情况——创新就会被挤到一边。

When we obsess about these very narrow measures of math and reading scores, and I see this over and over and over again, it pushes aside innovation.

我们希望孩子去做某件事，但这可能会占用他们练习无理数之类内容的时间。

We would like our kid to do x, but that may take some hours away from drilling on irrational numbers or something.

此外，我刚推出了一部新电影，我一直很忙，但我也出版了新书《 aftermath》，同时还有一部名为《多项选择》的电影上映，非常引人入胜。

And then we have a film out, so I've been busy, but I've got the new book out, Aftermath, but I also have a film out called Multiple Choice that shows and it's fascinating.

我的意思是，我拍这些电影。

I mean, I do these films.

拍这些电影并不便宜，但我去过弗吉尼亚州温彻斯特的一所公立学校。

They're not cheap to do, but I visited this school, a public school in Winchester, Virginia.

我非常喜欢他们所做的事。

I just love what they're doing.

我离开那里时就说：我们要拍一部关于这个的电影，因为这所主流公立学校出色地创建了一个他们称之为创新中心的地方，提供涵盖广泛技能的职业导向学习，比如管道工、木工、焊接、网络安全、医疗保健、人工智能和数字媒体。

When I left there, said, We're going to make a film about this, because mainstream public school, that brilliantly, they create something they call the innovation center, career based learning across a whole range of skills, you know, from plumbing to carpentry to welding to cybersecurity to health care to AI to digital media.

但关键在于，也是我拍这部电影的原因：这对所有孩子都很重要，而不仅仅是那些孩子。

But the key and the reason I made the film is this is important for all kids to do, not those kids.

所以这个中心几乎就像一种微型的国家服务。

So you have this center that almost serves like a microcosm of national service.

你可能在十件事上都很擅长，而我可能这十件事都不行，但我可能在你擅长的十件事之外有一件事特别拿手。

So you might be really good at 10 things, and I might be bad at all those 10 things, but maybe I'm good at one thing you're not good at.

而我们并肩而立。

And we're side by side.

突然间，双方都开始欣赏彼此独特的才能。

Suddenly, both develop some appreciation for the ways we're talented, the quite distinctive ways we're talented.

顺便说一句，这些技能的培养是基于当地经济的需求。

And they build those skills, by the way, based on what the local economy needs.

于是，他们开始培养一批能够融入本地社区的孩子。

So suddenly, they're developing a pipeline of kids that come into their community.

有些孩子会上大学，因为每个孩子都必须经历这个过程。

Some go away to college because all kids have to do it.

他们不会因为选择焊接而不是高级化学而受到惩罚。

They're not penalized for welding instead of AP chemistry.

上大学的孩子确实受益，而那些直接进入职场的孩子——在他们那里占了一半——已经探索过职业方向、掌握了技能，因此起步顺利。

The college kids actually benefit, but the ones that go directly to the workforce, which in their cases half, have explored careers, developed skills, and they're off to a running start.

我认为我们一直说服自己，这其实是个巨大的错误：要么走大学学术路线，要么走职业就业路线。

I think we've convinced ourselves, and it's been a colossal mistake, that there's either the college academic path or the career workforce path.

它们不仅不同，而且其中一个还远比另一个更优越。

Not only are they different, but one is way better than the other.

你知道吧？

You know?

你看看大学签约日和那些横幅，我的意思是，我本来是奥巴马夫妇的坚定支持者，但每到大学签约日，我几乎心都碎了。

And you you look at the college signing days and the pennants and the you know, I mean, I I was a big supporter of no Barack and Michelle Obama well, but I used to just almost break my heart when when it would be college signing day.

你真的可以做到。

You You can do it.

每个孩子都不同，很多孩子并不擅长学术，或者他们以其他方式找到自己的热情。

Every kid and a lot of kids just they're not academically inclined, or they find their passion in different ways.

如果我们尊重所有这些路径，如果孩子们——我在我演讲中用过这个视频。

And it's like if we respected all these paths and if kids I use this video on my talks.

我们没这么做，视频的制作质量很差。

We didn't do it, the video production quality is terrible.

但有个叫伍迪·弗劳尔斯的人，我不知道你有没有见过伍迪，但他和迪恩·卡门共同创立了FIRST机器人竞赛。

But a guy named Woody Flowers, I don't know if you met Woody, but he co founded First Robotics with Dean Kamen.

他在麻省理工学院教了四十五年书，并逐渐坚信。

He taught at MIT for forty five years and became convinced.

我得慢慢说，因为人们不相信我。

I have to say this slowly because people don't believe me.

伍迪逐渐相信，麻省理工学院的毕业生所学到的科学和工程知识非常有限。

Woody became convinced that MIT graduates had learned very little science and engineering.

为了证明他的观点，在毕业典礼那天，穿着学士服的毕业生们，作为世界上最有声望的工程学府的学子，他们自豪地站在那里，伍迪却走上前，递给每个毕业生一个灯泡、电线和电池，问：‘你能点亮这个灯泡吗？’

To make his point, graduation day, caps and gowns, world's most prestigious engineering institution in the world, we're proud graduates, They go up to all these grads, and they hand them a light bulb wire and battery and say, Can you light up the light bulb?

这些孩子心想：‘当然可以。’

And these kids are like, Of course.

等等，什么？

Like, Wait a minute.

这么重要的日子，你干嘛拿这种简单的事来烦我？

Why are you bothering me with something so pedestrian on this big day?

结果他们却点不亮灯泡。

And then they can't light up the light bulb.

我想表达的是，如果这些孩子在求学过程中曾当过电工，或者在电工那里做过暑期实习，他们一定会成为更优秀的麻省理工工程学生。

The point I make is had those kids along the way shatter an electrician or done a summer internship with an electrician, they'd be way better MIT engineering students.

其他孩子可能会成为电工，从事对维系社区至关重要的工作，而其他人至少会在家里停电时知道该怎么做。

And other kids might go on to be electricians that do incredibly important work to hold their community together, and everybody else would at least know when the power goes out at their house.

这就是我们对此的应对方式。

Here's what we do about it.

那种职业观念——那边的人，上公交车，就会被贴上标签，这不过是你的备选方案。

That sense of career, over there, get on a bus, you're stigmatized, this is your consolation prize.

上大学？没错，你成功了。

College, yes, bingo, you did it.

我认为这对国家前进的方式造成了极大的破坏，坦率地说，对民主党也造成了极大的破坏，因为多年来，民主党一直认为：当然，你需要大学学位才能成为一流公民，当然，如果没成功，就该由纳税人来买单。

I think that's been very destructive to the way our nation moves ahead, and I think quite frankly incredibly destructive to the Democratic Party, because that Democratic Party has been for years, Of course, you need a college degree to be a first class citizen, and of course, if it doesn't work out, taxpayers should cover the cost.

我并不反对上大学。

I'm not against college.

我只是主张在高中这段宝贵的自由时光里，让孩子们接触各种职业领域，了解学习与现实世界影响相关知识的意义，以便在18岁时做出更明智的选择。

I'm just in favor of exposing kids during those precious free years of high school to gain experience across a range of career areas, to understand what it means to learn things that are tied to real world impact, and to make better choices as 18 year olds.

听起来你非常支持职业教育。

It sounds like you're a big proponent of vocational programming.

我会说，首先，我很喜欢称之为创新。

I I would well, first, I love calling it innovation.

你知道，职业培训这个词带有如此大的污名。

You know, vocational is such a stigma.

我认为这对所有孩子都很重要，因为只有在那里，学习才会变得真实。

I think I think it's important for all kids, and I think I think because that's where the learning gets real.

就我个人而言，这是一件私人的事。

Now in my case, you know, it's a personal thing for me.

所以我从小长大。

So I grew up.

我爸爸为了参加二战而辍学，退伍时患有神经衰弱，再也没有回过高中，但他作为一名木匠养活了我们全家，却总是被人看不起，觉得他没高中文凭，也没有大学学历。

My dad dropped out of high school to fight in World War II, discharged with a nervous breakdown, never went back to high school, kept us afloat as a carpenter, was always looked down on as like, high school degree, no college degree.

但你回到那个街区时，

But you still go back to that neighborhood.

他为当地的教堂和修道院做了所有的工作。

He did all the work for the local church convent.

他为家人建造了起居室和门廊，是个优秀的公民、勤劳的父亲，从事着一份光荣的职业。

He built family rooms and porches for He was a great citizen, hardworking dad, doing an honorable profession.

我上高中那会儿，我们还得上手工课。

When I was in high school back then, we still had to take shop.

这救了我一命。

Here's what saved me.

如果我的手工课成绩算进去，我的班级排名肯定会一落千丈。

Had my shop grade counted, my class rate would have just dropped through the floor.

这些天赋我一点都没从我爸那儿继承到。

I did not get any of those genes from my dad.

我在这方面糟糕透了。

I am terrible at that.

但陪在他身边，我深深体会到，他的才华与学校教育无关，与标准化考试无关，却令人钦佩。

But being around him, I really appreciated the fact that the way he was really talented had nothing to do with school, had nothing to do with standardized tests, but it was impressive.

这并不是我擅长的，但我绝不会因此轻视它。

It wasn't something I was good at, but it certainly wasn't something I should look down on.

而看到他周围那些有类似才能的人后，我觉得我们对那些天赋在于动手职业的人实在太不公平了。

And having seen other people around him who did, I feel like we're just being grossly unfair to people whose talents lie more in a hands on profession.

所以，是的，我支持这种做法，但这并不意味着学校就应该完全围绕职业展开；但我想，如果一个孩子花了十八年——不管是十二年、十四年还是十六年的学校教育——离开时却缺乏目标和可雇佣的技能，我觉得我们辜负了他们。

And so, yes, I'm a fan of it, and it is not to say school should be all about career, but I feel like if a kid spends eighteen years, well, twelve years of school or fourteen years, sixteen, whatever, how many years of school?

如果他们离开学校时没有目标感，也没有一项能让他们立足的技能，我认为我们已经让他们失望了。

If they leave and they don't have a sense of purpose a hireable skill, I think we've sort of let them down.

这么多年的教育，我们至少应该确保他们感受到人生的目标，并拥有一个安全网——知道自己擅长某件事，能帮助自己走向一份令人满足的职业。

That's a lot of years to make sure they feel some sense of purpose in their life and at least have that safety net of knowing I'm really good at something that could help me move forward with the career I find fulfilling.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

今年是苹果公司成立五十周年。

This week is the fiftieth anniversary of Apple.

因此，本周在《The Verge Cast》节目中，我们盘点了苹果公司步入第五个十年后的现状。

And so this week on the verge cast, we're taking stock of where Apple is five decades into its existence.

这家公司目前表现如何？

How's the company doing?

我们还决定做一件有点荒谬的事，那就是评选并排名有史以来50款最佳苹果产品。

And we also decided to do something slightly ridiculous, which is identify and rank the 50 best Apple products of all time.

经过大量时间的争论，我想我们终于达成了共识。

After a lot of hours of debating, I think we finally got there.

本周的《The VergeCast》还将讨论OpenAI的情况——它正在筹集大量资金，试图上市，并努力让你相信你也喜欢人工智能。

That's on the VergeCast this week along with the state of OpenAI as it raises a ton of money, tries to go public, and tries to convince you that you also love AI.

所有这些内容都在《The VergeCast》中，无论你在哪个平台收听播客都能找到。

All that on the Vergecast wherever you get podcasts.

本节目由Hostinger赞助。

Support for the show comes from Hostinger.

对大多数创业者来说，最大的入门障碍并不是资金不足。

The biggest barrier to entry for most entrepreneurs is no lack of capital.

而是起步过程中的各种阻力。

It's the friction of starting.

你可能会在战略规划阶段耗费数月时间，而这些宝贵的时间本可以用来实际采取行动。

You can spend months in the strategizing phase, which is precious time that could instead be spent actually making moves.

但如今，规则已经改变了。

But these days, the rules have changed.

人工智能正在重新定义谁有资格创业。

AI is redefining who gets to build a business.

所以，当你打造下一个重磅产品时，用Hostinger几分钟内就能上线，而不是等几周。

So when you're building the next big thing, go live in minutes, not weeks, with Hostinger.

Hostinger是一个一体化平台，将所有功能整合到一处。

Hostinger is an all in platform that brings everything into one place.

你的域名、网站、邮件营销、AI工具和AI代理。

Your domain, website, email marketing, AI tools, and AI agents.

这样你就不必拼凑五个不同的订阅服务了。

So you can launch online without stitching together five different subscriptions.

从一个提示开始，再加入你的个人风格。

Start with a prompt and add your personal touch.

你无需编程或设计技能，就能创建网站、在线商店和自定义地图。

You can create websites, online stores, and custom maps without coding or designing skills.

然后使用AI代理自动化繁琐的任务，推动你的业务增长。

Then use AI agents to automate tedious tasks and grow your business.

Hostinger 支撑着超过一千万个网站，它之所以获得CNET编辑选择奖是有原因的。

Hostinger powers over 10,000,000 websites, and there's a reason it earned a CNET Editor's Choice Award.

将你的一天转变为新的起点。

Turn your one day into day one.

前往 hostinger.com/theprofg20，以每月不到3美元的价格将你的身份上线。

Go to hostinger.com/theprofg20 to bring your ID online for under $3 a month.

此外，使用促销码 the prop g 20 可再享八折优惠。

Plus, get an extra 20% off with promo code the prop g 20.

这还不到一杯咖啡的月均价格。

That's less than the price of a cup of coffee per month.

访问 hostinger.com slash the prop g 20，使用促销码 the prop g 20 额外享受20%折扣。

That's hostinger.com slash the prop g 20, promo code the prop g 20 for an extra 20% off.

我们继续带来Ted Dintersmith的更多内容。

We're back with more from Ted Dintersmith.

自从我进入教育领域以来，我们一直在预测高等教育的终结或重大变革。

Ever since I've been in education, we've been predicting the end of higher education or a massive disruption.

但每年，这种工业化的高等教育体系都变得更强大。

And every year the industrial higher education complex gets stronger.

你对即将到来的变革有什么看法？如果有，是来自人工智能还是其他方面？

Any thoughts about is there an upcoming disruption, and if there is, is it from AI or something else?

嗯，如果你回溯一下，我对克莱顿·克里斯滕森评价很高，但二十年前他预测高等教育将消亡时，情况如何呢？

Well, you you go back to and I have a high opinion of Clayton Christensen, but what was it twenty years ago when he predicted the demise of higher ed and it's rolling?

是的，他错了。

Yeah, he was wrong.

想想几件事。

Think a few things.

我非常希望高等教育能更具创新性。

I would love to see higher ed be more innovative.

我回过头来看。

I go back.

我的大学生活收获很多。

I mean, got a lot out of college.

我上的是弗吉尼亚州的一所公立大学，但大四那年的学费一年只有250美元。

I went to a public college in Virginia, but my senior year, the tuition for the year was $250.

我暑假打工，我们俩都在超市打工，但我那份暑假工作挣的钱，足够支付我大学最后一年的学费、住宿和伙食。

My summer job, we had similar We both worked at grocery stores for summer jobs, but my summer job, I made enough to cover tuition room and board for my last year of college.

是的，现在这种比例非常不利了。

Yeah, and so that ratio is really unfavorable now.

如今，即使上公立大学，孩子靠暑假打工也不可能负担得起费用，除非他们做AI顾问之类的工作。

You you can no longer even for a public college, a kid can't in a summer job unless they're an AI consultant or something.

但如果你只是做一份普通的暑假工，你还是会远远入不敷出。

But if you just work a standard summer job, you're gonna still be way underwater.

我觉得你会看到很多情况，我们通常把高等教育笼统地当作一个提供相似体验的统一整体。

I I think you're gonna see a lot of the you know, we tend to just say higher ed as though it's one universal basket of schools offering similar experiences for their kids.

我非常推崇保罗·塔夫斯的著作，不知道你有没有读过他的书？他是个非常有思想的人，写过一本叫《不平等机器》的书。

You know, I'm a big fan I don't know if you've read any of Paul Tufts' books, but Paul is a very thoughtful guy and wrote a book called The Inequality Machine.

你所任教的学校，或者常春藤盟校，每年用于照顾和教育每名学生的预算都是六位数。

And so where you teach or the Ivy League schools, their budget per student year to take care of and educate those students is six digits.

他们收取8万美元的学费，但实际支出却高达10万、11万甚至12万美元。

They charge 80 ks, and they spend 100, 110, 120 ks.

还有很多大学，每名学生每年的预算只有2500美元。

There are a lot of colleges where that budget per student year is $2,500.

我觉得这些学校如今非常脆弱。

I think those are very vulnerable today.

我真希望那些真正为学生提供卓越教育的大学能扩大招生规模。

What I'd love to see for the colleges that really do a great job for their kids, I'd love to see them expand the student body size.

除了因为这会影响《美国新闻与世界报道》的排名，为什么择优录取会成为如此重要的因素呢？

Why is selectivity such an important factor other than it flows into The US News and World Report?

如果这些大学说：在未来五年内，我们要招收十倍于现在数量的学生，那岂不是很好？

Wouldn't it be great if these colleges said over the next five years, we're gonna accept 10 x the number of students?

我觉得这会很有意思。

I think that would be interesting.

他们当然能雇到优秀的教职员工，他们有钱。

They certainly could hire great faculty for it, they've got the money.

当我刚在波士顿开始工作时，说实话，东北大学还是一所三流大学，但现在想进去简直难如登天。

And I do like when I first started working in Boston, to be really direct, Northeastern was sort of like a third tier college, and now it's unbelievably hard to get into.

我真的很喜欢他们所做的事。

I just love what they're doing.

五年制而不是四年制，让学生有两到两年半的时间在实习中接触真实世界，通常还能赚钱，学生们离开时不仅清楚自己想做什么，还拥有良好的职业路径，同时他们也拥有扎实的通识教育课程。

Five years instead of four, two to two and half years out in the real world in co ops where you're often making money, and kids leave with a real sense of what they want to do and a great job path, but they also have a really strong liberal arts program.

所以，这并不是单纯的职前培训，而是将学习与现实世界联系起来。

So it's not, again, career only, but it's sort of like that connecting learning to the real world.

所以我认为那里确实存在真正的机遇，但我确实觉得我们传递了一个非常糟糕的信息。

So I think there are real opportunities there, but I do feel like we send such a bad message.

你逛过大学校园吧？

You walk around college campuses, right?

他们说，孩子们会抱怨，因为他们要和另外三个孩子共用一个浴室。

And they're like, Kids will complain because they have to share a bathroom with three other kids.

我的意思是，我上大学的时候，整条走廊的学生都共用一个洗手间，而且条件并不豪华，也不舒适。

I mean, when I went to college, there were an entire hallway all went to one bathroom, and it wasn't plush, and it wasn't cushy.

我认为我们给这些孩子传递了一个信息：你已经成功了。

And I think we send a message to these kids, You've made it.

我访问并写过一篇关于华盛顿州的一所学校的报道，那就是伊芙格林学院。

A school I visited and wrote about is in Washington State, Evergreen College.

我的意思是，它的条件非常简陋。

I mean, it's bare bones.

你知道，他们的校园并不是

You know, their campus is not

八十年代的加州大学洛杉矶分校。

UCLA in the eighties.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

整个地方早就该被封禁了。

The whole place should have been condemned.

本该如此，但每季度只要400美元。

It was but it was $400 a quarter.

我租了。

I'll take it.

只要有啤酒，我们就很满意了。

As long as there was beer, I mean, we were fine.

伊瑟格林学院非常照顾学生，培养了许多优秀毕业生，而且费用低廉。

Evergreen does a great job with its kids, and they produced a number of outstanding graduates, and it's very affordable.

而且，入学也非常容易。

And also, it's very easy to get into.

所以我认为我们需要做一些改变，但我觉得，你知道，我们在这方面基本达成一致。

And so I think that we need to make some changes, but I think I I do think, you know, and and I think we're mostly in agreement on this.

我的意思是，如果你能上大学而不背负巨额债务，你实际上会更清楚自己想从中学到什么。

I mean, if you can go to college, not go into enormous debt, you know, actually, you have a sense of what you wanna get out of it.

你知道吧？

You know?

那些可是很棒的年头。

Like, those are great years.

你知道吧？

You know?

对吧？

Right?

如果你不喜欢学术，或者这根本不适合你，或者你对其他事情有真正的热情，我认为我们也应该认可这条道路。

If you don't like academics or, it's just not for you or you have a real passion for something else, I think we need to celebrate that path as well.

我确实觉得，这种‘不管付出什么代价都必须上大学’的口号。

I do think that this whole mantra of you've got to go to college no matter what it takes.

我去过一些中低层次的大学，每年到了某个时候，草坪上到处都是‘申请FAFSA’‘续贷学生贷款’的标语，有太多人正深陷永远还不清的学生贷款债务中。

I go to some of these colleges, some more mid and low tier colleges where a certain time of year, every lawn is plastered with sign up for FAFSA, renew your student loans, and so many people are just dealing with student loan debt they're never gonna get out of.

因为我们告诉他们，这是你通向成功的门票，它确实可能是，但绝不是 guaranteed 的成功门票。

And because we told them, this is your ticket to success, and it can be, but it is not a guaranteed ticket to success.

确实如此。

That's for sure.

那我们来谈谈所谓的魔法棒测试吧。

So let's talk about kind of magic wand test.

你能提出两三个政策，认为它们能改善高等教育或整个教育体系吗？

Two or three policies you could implement that you think would change higher education or or just education for the better.

你希望看到什么样的改变？

What would you like to see happen?

是的。

Yeah.

我想首先，应该在课程要求和毕业标准中，更多地重视学生真正创作、发明并坚持完成的成果，而不是过多依赖多项选择题考试。

I would say first, I would say put weight in terms of course requirements and graduation on real things you create and invent and stick with it until you've done something you're proud of, and less on multiple choice exams.

因此，我会开始寻找真实的学生作品集，展现他们的进步与影响力，并将其作为我们对学生在校期间至少应完成的要求之一。

So I would start looking for authentic portfolios of progress, of impact, and make that at least part of what we expect kids to do through school.

这是第一件事。

That'd be the first thing.

第二件事是，今天禁止孩子使用人工智能简直是极不负责任的行为。

The second thing is I think it's grossly irresponsible today to forbid kids from using AI.

你知道吗？

You know?

我不是说所有课程都该用，但我觉得如果一个孩子在学校待了十二年，或者十四年，不管多少年。

Like, I don't think it should be in all classes, but I think if a kid spends twelve years in, you know, in school, fourteen whatever.

无论他们在校多久，一个能熟练使用人工智能的孩子，将来几乎可以从事任何他想从事的职业，而一个不会用的孩子，我认为会吃大亏。

However many years they they spend, a kid that comes out of school really good at using AI can create or pursue almost any career they want, and a kid that can't, I think, is going to be hurting.

所以我们能做到这一点。

So we can do that.

对吧？

Right?

我们不需要去教他们。

And we don't have to teach them.

我们只需要允许他们使用它。

We just have to let them use it.

但我给你举个例子。

But I'll give you an example.

我每年都会去一所非常知名的公立大学做一次客座讲座，听众大约是一百名大三和大四学生。

I give a guest lecture every year to a very well known public college, about 100 juniors and seniors.

两个月前，我问他们：‘今天有多少人认为自己非常擅长使用AI，能够利用AI让自己和周围的人更高效？’

Two months ago, I asked them, How many of you consider yourself today to be really good at AI, to be able to use AI to make yourself and those around you more productive?

一百人。

A 100.

没有人。

Nobody.

我说：‘不，不，不。’

I said, No, no, no.

等等。

Wait.

我不是这个意思。

I'm not here.

这并不是一场猎巫行动。

This isn't a witch hunt.

我其实希望每个人都举手示意。

I actually hope everybody holds your hand up.

我们再来一次吧，因为顺便说一句，这将非常重要。

Let's do this again because by the way, this is going to be really important.

还是没有人。

Still, no one.

我头都要炸了。

My head's exploding.

我只是跟他们解释说：你们可以在这儿花接下来的四个月、十六个月或二十八个月，努力把GPA提高零点一或零点二，也可以分配时间，专心掌握AI的使用，不管你的教授是否认可。

I just explained to them, You can spend your next four months here or sixteen months here or twenty eight months here trying to eke out a point one or point two increase in your GPA or allocate time so you get really good at using AI, whether it has the blessing of your professor or not.

而两者的差别会非常巨大，因为如果你选择前者，没人会在意。

And the difference is going to be enormous because if you do the first one, no one's going to care.

但如果你能熟练使用AI，那你就能自己掌控未来。

And if you get good at using AI, write your own ticket.

我收到了很多感谢信，我的意思是，有多少大学生会写感谢信呢？

I got so many thank I mean, how many college kids write thank you notes?

没人会。

No one.

对吧？

Right?

我收到了一大捆来自这些孩子的感谢信，他们出乎我意料地说：我从来没这么想过。

I got this whole bundle of thank you notes from these kids who, somewhat to my amazement, said, I never really thought of that.

你知道的，就这样吧。

You know, like, okay.

所以这会是我的第二个建议。

So that would be my second one.

第三个是，我认为我们应该在教学队伍上投入更多资金。

And then the third is I think investing a lot more money in our teaching force.

我的一位好朋友叫波斯·萨尔伯格。

You know, a good friend of mine is a guy named Posse Salberg.

他编写了芬兰语课程。

He wrote Finnish lessons.

他设计了芬兰所有的改革。

He architected all the changes in Finland.

有趣的是，你问波塞，是什么让芬兰的所有进步成为可能？

And interestingly, you asked Posse, what made all the progress in Finland possible?

那是一场财政危机。

It was a budget crisis.

石油收入暴跌了。

The oil revenue tanked.

他们面临巨大压力，必须做出选择。

They were under the gun, and they had to make a choice.

我们可以半途而废，可以把钱花在数据上，或者把钱花在教师培训上。

We could do everything half assed, or we could put our dollars on data, or we could put our dollars on teacher training.

我们可以选择更多地追踪孩子们在毫无意义的目标上的失败情况，或者把钱用在让我们的教师变得卓越上。

We can either have more data tracking how our kids are failing on goals that don't make sense, or we could put it into making our teachers amazing.

他们关闭了许多教育学院。

They shut down a bunch of the colleges of education.

芬兰有个笑话。

There's a joke in Finland.

你知道吗，三个人走进酒吧，一个是医生，一个是律师，一个是老师。

You know, three people go into the bar, a doctor, a lawyer, and a teacher.

酒保问医生：你为什么当医生？

The bartender asks the doctor, Why are you a doctor?

他说：我没被教育学院录取。

He said, I didn't get into the school of education.

然后问律师：你为什么当律师？

And asked the lawyer, Why are you a lawyer?

他们拒绝了我，所以我成了律师。

They turned me down, so I'm a lawyer.

但我们的老师，我们却一味地责怪他们。

But it's like our teachers, we just wail on them.

这真让人心碎，而且影响会持续蔓延。

It's just heartbreaking, and it ripples down.

当我今天问学校里的老师，是什么吸引你们从事这个职业时？

When I ask teachers in schools today, What drew you to the profession?

通常是因为他们的父母做过，往往是母亲。

It is often my parent did, often the mother.

然后我会问他们：你会鼓励自己的孩子去当老师吗？

And then I say to them, Would you encourage your child to teach?

他们说：不会，不会。

And they say, Nope, Nope.

而我正亲身经历着这一切。

And I'm living that.

我有一个27岁的女儿，她现在当老师。

I've got a 27 year old daughter who does teach.

当我追踪她的工作时长和微薄的薪酬时，我真不希望她看到这个播客，虽然我为她感到骄傲，但心里还是忍不住感叹：天啊。

And I mean, when I track how her hours are and how little she's paid, I'm not going to I hope she doesn't watch this podcast because I'm thrilled, but I'm like, wow.

幸运的是她非常节俭，因为没人能靠那份薪水生活。

It's a good thing she's incredibly frugal because no one could live on that salary.

很难反对给教师加薪，但我们生活在一个劳动力市场由供需决定的经济中。

It's hard to argue against paying our teachers more, but we live in an economy that's supply and demand in a labor force.

而且

And is

存在

there

教师短缺吗？

a teacher shortage?

归根结底，如果报酬不够高，人们就不会进入这个行业，届时他们就必须提高薪酬。

Because at the end of the day at some point if they're not paid well enough people aren't going to go into the profession and they're going to have to raise the compensation.

只要还有人愿意以低薪教书，你的薪资水平就会一直保持在低位。

So in some, as long long as people are willing to teach for low salaries, you're going to keep your salaries low.

我问这个问题通常是出于好奇，而不是评论。

Do you I ask this generally as a question, not as a comment.

公立学校教师的就业和参与趋势如何？

What are the employment and participation trends in teachers across public schools?

情况很糟糕。

It's grim.

我的意思是，

I mean,

人才输送渠道萎缩了。

the pipeline shriveled up.

有很多空缺职位。

There are a lot of openings.

你想想，这个领域里有谁会说教师严重短缺吗？

Think anybody in that world would say there's an acute shortage of teachers.

我们已经让情况变得非常糟糕了，如果你在10月19日还没上这个页面，我们就敲你的手指。

We've made it very If you're not on this page on October 19, we'll wrap your knuckles.

我支持这一点，并且已经去过好几次了。

I'm a supporter of and have visited several times.

在堪萨斯州偏远的埃姆波里亚，有一个国家教师名人堂。

There's this National Teachers Hall of Fame in the middle of nowhere in Kansas, Emporia, Kansas.

当我开车横跨全国时，我和妻子在高速公路上看到一块牌子，上面写着‘国家教师名人堂’。

When I went all over the country, my wife and I are driving on a highway, we see this sign, National Teachers Hall of Fame.

我根本不知道它存在。

I didn't even know it existed.

我们当即掉头，开车过去参观，见到了管理那里的人。

We just said like, turned the car, drove off, went and visited, met the woman who ran it.

我已经回去过好几次了，他们在各个方面都做得极其出色。

I've been back several times, they've been unbelievably great in every respect.

这个博物馆，跟俄亥俄州的坎顿或纽约州的库珀斯敦相比，简直小得可怜。

The museum itself, compared to Canton, Ohio or Cooperstown, New York, mean, is dinky.

对吧？

Right?

它就只有一个房间，但至少它还在那里。

It's one little room, but at least it's there.

但是，斯科特，你爬上一座小山，有个小土丘和一个小教堂，那里立着一些方尖碑。

But, Scott, you go up on a hill, there's a knoll and a little chapter, and there are these obelisks.

这些方尖碑上刻着所有为保护和捍卫学生免受枪手伤害而献出生命的教育工作者的名字。

And the obelisk had the name of all the educators who've given their lives to protect and defend their kids from a shooter.

他们正在筹款。

And and they're raising money.

我只是给了他们一笔补助金来完成这项工作，但他们必须竖立一座全新的方尖碑。

I just gave them the the grant to finish it, but they have to put a whole new obelisk.

你知道，这里有两百位教师，我的意思是，我想说的是，我们把孩子的生命托付给他们，却不信任他们的教学计划。

And, you know, it's it's 200 teach you know, like, The point I say is we trust them with the lives of our kids, but we don't trust them with their lesson plans.

没有人喜欢一整天都被规定好每一件事。

Nobody likes to be scripted every minute of the day.

没有人愿意担心，如果说了什么不够妥当的话，某个疯狂的家长会在社交媒体上人肉搜索他们。

Nobody likes to fear that if they say it's not quite the right thing, that some crazy parent will dox them on social media.

我不知道。

I don't know.

这是我们国家的基石。

This is the foundation of our country.

教育是成功民主的关键。

Education is the key to a successful democracy.

如果我们做对了，一切都会顺理成章；如果我们搞砸了，一切都会分崩离析。

If we get it right, things fall in place, and if we botch it up, things fall apart.

我觉得我们已经在这条错误的道路上走了四十年，因为世界在飞速前进，而我们却停滞不前，这正是我写下《 aftermath 》这本书的原因。

I feel like we're forty years into the botch up zone with this because the world's racing ahead, and we stay stuck in time, which is why I wrote the book Aftermath.

我觉得这简直完美。

I think it just is perfect.

它要求学生花数千小时学习那些成年后根本用不到的数学，却从未教给他们那些真正定义我们生活的数学理念，这让孩子们觉得：‘没错。’

It says thousands of hours on math that no adult uses, at the same time never getting to the math ideas that define our lives, in ways that tell kids, yep.

我们无法回答你们的问题：我什么时候才会用到它？

We don't have an answer to your question of when will I ever use it.

这么做除了能给我们一个不错的排名和筛选方式之外，其实毫无意义，但还是照做吧。

There really is no point in this other than it gives us a nice way to rank and sort you, but do it anyway.

顺便说一下，你的目标是超越身边的人。

And by the way, your goal is to outcompete the people next to you.

然后我们说，天啊，他们感到幻灭，离开学校时毫无目标感，大多数人觉得自己被碾压了。

And and then we say, and and, wow, they're they're disillusioned, and they leave school with no sense of purpose, and most of them feel wailed on.

你知道，这样是不对的。

You know, like, it's not okay.

对吧？

Right?

我希望情况不是这样的。

And I wish it weren't like that.

我的意思是，我本可以去旅行、享受生活。

I mean, I'd be traveling and having fun.

我的意思是，我在风投领域做得不错，但一旦你明白了这一点，你就会说：真遗憾。

I mean, I did fine in venture, I just feel like once you know that, you just say, Darn.

抱歉啊。

Sorry about that.

我们这些知道真相的人必须站出来发声。

We gotta those who know have to speak out.

而且你知道，这正是我努力去做的，因为这些孩子——我的意思是，看看这些八九岁、十来岁的孩子，他们仰望着你，你很清楚他们信任成年人能为他们做出正确的决定。

And and, you know, that's what I try to do because I these kids I mean, you look at these eight, ten year old kids, they they kinda look up at you, you just know they they're trusting the adults to make good decisions for them.

我认为我们并没有做到。

I don't think we are.

最后一个问题是。

Last question.

在了解了你所了解的关于教育的一切之后，这如何影响了你作为父亲的角色，以及你试图教给孩子的内容？

After learning everything you've learned about education, how does it impact your role as a father and what you try to teach your kids?

我的意思是，很多教育，或者说孩子在学校取得成功所需的前提、背景或支柱，其实都发生在家庭中。

I mean, a lot of education or the pretext or the context or the pillars for them succeeding in school happen at home.

对于父母来说，关于家庭中应该做些什么来帮助孩子在课堂上取得成功，你有什么建议？

What advice would you have for parents in terms of what happens in the home helping set them up for success in in the classroom?

我通常不太谈论自己的孩子，但我有一个29岁的儿子和一个27岁的女儿，他们在某种程度上正是我们所讨论内容的缩影。

I generally don't talk much about my own kids, but I've got a 29 year old son and a 27 year old daughter that in some ways are a microcosm of what we talked about.

我们的女儿很喜欢学校，喜欢那些理念，除了学习还做了很多其他事情，但对她来说一切都很容易。

Our daughter loved school, loved the ideas, did a lot of other things besides study, but it just was easy for her.

所以你看她，就会觉得她在整个求学过程中表现得非常出色。

And so you look at her and you say, She did incredibly well through the school process.

我们的儿子从三年级或四年级开始，就非常讨厌学校。

Our son, from about grade three or four, just hated it.

他主要讨厌被人指使该做什么。

And mostly he hated being told what to do.

那种‘你必须这么做’的模式，他就是无法接受。

There was just something about this is what you have to do that he just didn't respond to.

他在大学待了几周后，就毅然退学，靠自己努力做起音乐视频的创作与制作。

He spent a few weeks in college and just pulled the rip cord and sort of bootstrapped his way up to creating and directing music videos.

他为格莱美奖、大学橄榄球赛事都做过项目。

He's done things for the Grammys, things for the college football.

我的意思是，他是靠自己一步步打拼上来的，但他

I mean, he's bootstrapped his way up, but he's

他做得不错。

He's done well.

是的。

Yeah.

他表现得挺好。

He's done fine.

但我想对父母们的建议是这样：

But I think and my advice to parents is this.

孩子会告诉你什么对他们有用。

Kids will tell you what works for them.

孩子有自己的兴趣。

Kids have their interest.

理解这一点。

Understand that.

但我知道，对我儿子来说，如果我硬要和他对抗，逼他取得稍高一点的GPA，我们的关系就会破裂。

But I know with my son, if I had waged war and beat the bejeezers out of him to get a slightly higher GPA, our relationship would be broken.

他最多可能把一个B-提升到B，或者类似的情况，但我觉得他会因此感受到一种持续的氛围，好像没人真正欣赏他。

He probably would have at best turned one B minus into a B or something, and I think he would have gotten a drumbeat of somehow people didn't admire him.

人们并不尊重他。

People didn't respect him.

所以我对父母们说，我觉得这其实很简单。

So I say to parents, I mean, I think it's easy.

对吧？

Right?

你更在意车后贴的那张贴纸，还是更在意帮助孩子找到自己的方向，并全力支持他们？

Do you care more about the decal on the back of your car, or do you care more about helping your kid find their lane and supporting the heck out of them?

大多数父母都会告诉我：当然，我只希望我的孩子快乐。

And most parents will tell me, of course, all I want is for my kid to be happy.

但很多父母的行为却恰恰相反。

A lot of parents act in the exact opposite way.

我重新联系了我的高中，所以我上的是弗吉尼亚北部的一所公立高中。

Reconnected with my high school, and so I went to a public high school in Northern Virginia.

我做了一次非常有争议的毕业演讲。

I gave a very controversial graduation speech.

它引起了巨大争议，观众向我嘘声。

It was so controversial, I was booed by the audience.

第二天我回学校时，他们叫了警察来抓我。

When I went to school the next day, they called the police to arrest me.

那可能不是我在高中时最棒的时刻，但他们主动找到了我。

That wasn't maybe my best moment in high school, but they approached me.

我在一次会议上演讲时，一群来自那所高中的人来找我。

I was giving a talk at a conference, and a bunch of people from that high school came up to me.

他们看过我的作品、我的电影，读过我的一些书，并送给我一张从年鉴上洗印出来的我的照片，装在相框里。

They had seen my work, my films, and read some of my books, and they brought me a framed picture of me from the yearbook.

那还挺酷的。

That was kind of cool.

但我确实回去了。

But I'd gone back there.

有趣的是，有一位老师让学生们观看了我的第一部电影《极有可能成功》，并阅读了我的书《学校可以是什么样子》。

Interestingly, one of the teachers had the kids watch, you know, my first film, Most Likely to Succeed, and read some of my book, What School Could Be.

然后，这些孩子分别向他们的同学、老师、家长和校长发表了演讲。

And then each of these kids gave talks to their classmates, to their teachers, to parents, and to the principal.

36个孩子，没有一个说：学校给我带来了快乐。

36 kids, not one said, School is a source of joy for me.

我的意思是，很多人甚至流下了眼泪。

I mean, many were in tears.

最后，校长说：我必须问一句，我们怎么会允许这种情况发生？

And at the end, the principal said, I just have to ask, how do we let this happen?

我说了一些话，你们大概能猜到我会对那群人说些什么。

And I say some things, you have a sense of what I might say to that group.

但我尽量不完全否定它，而是说我们需要的是充满创造力和快乐的学校，而不是只注重训练和习题的学校。

But I try not to totally diss it, but I sort of say we need to have schools of creativity and joy, not schools of drills and worksheets.

一对父母带着他们的女儿走了过来。

This mother and dad come up with their daughter.

我努力说得非常具体。

And I try to be very specific.

我对女儿说：你的演讲真的很有趣。

I say to the daughter, Your talk was really interesting.

你提出了两个观点。

You made these two points.

我觉得它们很棒。

I thought they were great.

就是这样。

Boom.

母亲对我说：我们真的对这个很感兴趣。

The mother says to me, We really just are interested in this.

我们知道我们的女儿不适合这种级别的大学，但考虑到她就在现场，你认为她需要什么样的AP课程覆盖和分数才能进入这个层次？

We know our daughter is not college material for this class of college, but what kind of AP course coverage and scores do you think she needs to get into this tier with the daughter right there?

我说：等等，你的女儿刚刚做了一场很棒的演讲。

And I say like, Wait, your daughter just gave this great talk.

你需要充满热情。

You need to be excited.

不要让你对女儿的看法被某个匿名的28岁大学招生官定义，他们可能只是因为家人捐了很多钱，或者自己曾经是运动员才在这里工作的。

Don't let your view about your daughter be defined by some anonymous 28 year old college admissions officer who's probably there because their family gives a lot of money or they were an athlete.

帮助这个孩子找到属于自己的道路。

Help this kid find their lane.

她很棒。

She's great.

而我唯一希望的就是我的孩子能快乐，然后呢？

And it's, again, all I want is for my kid to be happy, and then what happens?

对吧？

Right?

我就只是说，相信这一点。

I just say believe that.

如果你的目标是这样，那么，你知道的，我用一个你我能理解的比喻来说明，我希望听到这个的人也能明白。

If that's your goal, by and and, you know, I'll put it into the a metaphor that you and I can understand, and I hope I hope people listening to this can.

是的。

Yeah.

我彻头彻尾是个风险投资人。

I'm a venture guy through and through.

我是个风险投资人。

I am a venture guy.

风险投资人从不告诉别人该做什么。

Venture guys don't tell anybody what to do.

作为风险投资人，如果我们做好本职工作——我努力做好我的工作，我认为我做得不错——我会去了解你的梦想，并全力支持你。

As a venture guy, if we do our job, and I tried to do my job and I think I did it well, I try to find out what your dream is and support the hell out of you.

对吧？

Right?

你想要实现什么？我能怎么帮你？

What do you want to accomplish, and how can I help?

如果我觉得你追求的目标不是我关心或认为重要的事，我就不会和你合作。

And if I don't think you want to accomplish something that I care about or is important, I don't work with you.

但这影响了我对教育的看法。

But that ripples through my view about education.

成年人应该弄清楚这个孩子真正觉得自己来到这个世界上是为了做什么，这不会在五岁时发生，可能十岁时也不会发生。

Adults should figure out what that kid really feels they're put on this planet to do, which won't happen at age five, may not happen at age 10.

但如果我们能与这些孩子一起努力，等到他们离开学校时，应该已经清楚地知道自己想解决哪些问题、什么对自己重要、是什么在驱动自己。

But if we work with those kids, by the time they leave school, they ought to have a clear sense of what problems they want to solve, what's important to them, what drives them.

然后，我认为就应该全力支持他们实现这一使命，别纠结于他们是想当电工还是去常春藤盟校当什么。

Then I think just support the heck out of them on that mission, and don't sweat if they want to be an electrician versus being whatever at an Ivy League college.

帮助他们发现自己的梦想和目标，并给予支持。

Help them find out their dreams and purpose and support them.

这就是我想对父母们说的，因为孩子们并不想活成你告诉他们应该活成的样子。

That's what I would say to parents, because kids don't want to live the life you tell them to live.

他们想活成自己想要创造的样子。

They want to live the life they want to create.

我认为，作为成年人，无论我们是父母、老师、朋友还是亲戚，我们的角色就是帮助这些孩子绽放自我。

And I think our role as adults, whether we're parents or teachers or friends or relatives, is to just help those kids blossom.

我

I

你知道，当你说到你只希望孩子快乐时，很难不点头赞同。

you know, it's impossible not to nod when you say you just want your kids to be happy.

但无论如何，我不会把这种想法强加给其他父母。

But at any well, I won't won't project this on other parents.

坦白说，在我对自己进行真正反思时，让我的大儿子进入精英学校，对我来说在内心深处极其重要。

And honest when I really honest in my own self assessment, getting my oldest son or him getting into an elite school was hugely important to me deep down.

当然，我希望他快乐，但我已经说服自己相信——如果我们作为父母诚实面对，这确实是第一次，一个中立的第三方不仅评估孩子，也评估你作为父母的表现。

And of course I want him to be happy, but I've talked myself into believing, I think if we're honest as parents, it's sort of the first real time a neutral third party or a fairly neutral third party not only assesses the kid, but assesses you as a parent.

我们需要摆脱这种思维模式。

And we need to break out of that.

我们需要更多地从质性角度来评估什么是成功的父母，而这并不一定意味着让孩子进入精英学校。

We need to have more qualitative assessments of what it means to be a successful parent, and that doesn't necessarily mean getting your kid into an elite school.

但我自己确实深陷其中。

But I'm I'm hugely guilty.

我完全明白你的意思。

I know exactly what you're saying.

我对教育了解很多。

I know a lot about education.

我知道我爱我的孩子，希望他们快乐，但我想，在关键时刻，我们大多数人其实都希望孩子能进入精英学校，如果没做到就会感到失望。

I think I'd like to I know I love my kids and I want them to be happy, but I still think the majority of us, when push comes to shove, really hope our kids get into an elite school and are disappointed if they don't.

我觉得这么说很公平。

I think I think that's fair to say.

我的电影《最有可能成功》2015年上映时，帕洛阿尔托的一个团体像狗盯住猪排一样逼我到冈恩高中举办社区放映，因为那年他们学校有五名学生自杀。

I mean, my my film Most Likely to Succeed, you know, came out in 2015, and and a group in Palo Alto just was on me like a dog on a pork chop to do a community screening, Gunn High School, because that year they had five student suicides.

这些孩子都是普通的学生。

And these were normal kids.

对吧？

Right?

但这些孩子都被灌输必须进入斯坦福大学，如果做不到我会崩溃

But these were kids that were told that, of course, you've got to get into Stanford, and I'd be crushed if

哦，你说的是在湾区发生的。

Oh, you go to this was in the Bay Area.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得读过关于这件事的报道。

I remember reading about this.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我只是想说，你总是得问，这个代价是什么。

So so I just would say, you know, you always have to ask at what price.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我有个女儿，她很热爱学校的理念。

You know, I mean, I I had a daughter who loved the ideas of school.

你知道，我除了说‘随你吧’之外，什么都没说。

You know, like, I didn't say anything other than go with it.

对吧？

Right?

而这一切以适合她的方式展开了。

And and that unfolded in a way that worked for her.

但我的意思是，告诉你，如果一个孩子告诉你，我不喜欢它，我不喜欢它，我看不出它的意义，或者我的兴趣在别处，我不知道。

But I mean, I tell you, you know, if a kid is telling you that I don't enjoy it or I don't like it or I don't see the point in it or my interests are somewhere different, you know, I don't know.

你会说，要谨慎。

You're like, caution.

这就是我想说的。

That's all I'd say.

谨慎。

Caution.

泰德·丁特史密斯是一位教育倡导者、作家和电影制作人，专注于学校如何更好地为学生应对未来的工作做准备。

Ted Dintersmith is an education advocate, author, and filmmaker focused on how schools can better prepare students for the future of work.

他的新书《后果：学校不会教你的改变人生的数学》现已出版。

His new book, Aftermath, The Life Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You, is out now.

泰德，非常感谢你的工作，我很享受这次对话。

Ted, very much appreciate your work, and I enjoyed the conversation.

是的。

Yeah.

这次交流太棒了。

This was great.

谢谢你们所做的一切。

I and thanks for all you're doing.

这真的太棒了。

It's really fantastic.

本集节目由詹妮弗·桑切斯和劳拉·詹纳制作。

This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Laura Jenner.

卡米·里克是我们社交媒体制作人。

Kami Riek is our social producer.

比安卡·罗萨里奥·拉米雷斯是我们视频编辑，德鲁·伯罗斯是我们技术总监。

Bianca Rosario Ramirez is our video editor, and Drew Burrows is our technical director.

感谢收听来自propgmedia的Propg播客。

Thank you for listening to the propg pod from propgmedia.