为什么“追随你的热情”是糟糕的建议——与比尔·伯内特和戴夫·埃文斯

旧金山，旧金山。

San Francisco Francisco.

观众。

Crowd.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以，他什么工作都接。

So but so and he took any job.

我是说，他什么活都干。

I mean, he took any job.

为了有个地方住，让孩子有饭吃、能上学，这就是他的责任。

Put a roof over the head, feed the kids, get them to school, and that was his job.

他的意义来自他的教会，来自他的社区。

He had meaning from his church, from his community.

他从其他你没想到会得到很多意义的事情中获得了意义。

He got meaning from other things that you didn't expect to get a lot.

他只有六年级的教育水平，一生大部分时间都在做糟糕的工作。

His sixth grade education, he had terrible crappy jobs for most of his life.

但他的人生很有意义，因为他的使命就是让孩子们上学，所以我妈妈和叔叔去了社区大学，接受了他没有接受过的教育，我的父母也得以送我上斯坦福。

But he had a meaningful life because the mission was get the kids, so my mom and uncle went off to community college and got educated that he didn't have, my parents were able to send me to Stanford.

我女儿刚刚在旧金山的加州大学旧金山分校完成了癌症免疫学的博士学位。

My daughter just finished her PhD in cancer immunology at UCSF here up in Parnassus.

恭喜。

Congratulations.

她将改变世界，拯救癌症，治愈癌症。

And she's going to change the world and save cancer, and cure cancer.

所以她非常棒。

So she's wonderful.

但我是说，所有这些事情，工作、金钱和意义这些东西，常常混在一起，特别是在这一代人身上，大家都想在一个地方全都得到。

But I mean, all of these things, all these jobs and money and meaning thing, it gets so confused, and particularly in this generation, people want it all in one place.

其实不一定非得在一个地方。

It doesn't have to be that one place.

事实上，你可能不想按照市场的规则来获得金钱或意义。

In fact, you might not want to get your money, might not get your meaning on the market's terms.

你让我想到几个问题。

You inspire a couple questions.

我非常感谢你分享你祖父母1933年离开德国的故事。

So I really appreciate your story about your grandparents leaving Germany in 1933.

我妈妈在1939年是一个四岁的犹太小孩，住在伦敦，我想说，英国皇家空军和罗斯福是我能在这里的原因。

My mom in 1939 was a four year old Jew living in London, and I would say the RAF in Roosevelt, reason I'm here.

我们身上发生的很多事情，其实都不由我们控制。

So much of what happens to us is just out of your control.

这不是你的错。

It's not your fault.

我觉得我这辈子做过最聪明的事，就是出生在60年代的加州，还是个白人异性恋男性。

I would say the smartest thing I've ever did was being born a white heterosexual male in California in the 60s.

这真的是我能做的最聪明的事了。

That was literally the smartest thing I could have done.

而且这带来了不公平的巨大优势。

And unfair disproportionate advantage.

美国从1945年到2000年贡献了全球GDP增长的30%，其中三分之二都落在了那三分之一的人口身上，他们看起来、闻起来、感觉上都跟我一样。

America, 30% of the world's GDP growth, 1945 to 2000, and two thirds of that was crammed into the one third of the population that looked, smelt, and felt like me.

而且很多时候，我经常跟年轻人说，你的成功和失败，很大程度上不是你的错。

And so much, and this goes to what I often tell young people is that so much of your success and your failure is not your fault.

所以当你做得好时要保持谦逊。我觉得科技圈很擅长把成功归功于自己的毅力和品格，而把失败归咎于市场。

And to be humble when you do well, I think the tech community is very good at crediting their grit and character for their success, and then blaming the markets for their failure.

我发现人们远远没有充分认识到那些自己无法控制的因素的重要性。

And what I find is that people don't nearly give enough credit to things that are out of their control.

如果人类经历的绝大部分都是发生在你身上的。

If the overwhelming majority of human experience happens to you.

对。

That's right.

对。

That's right.

所以当你和那些觉得自己缺乏意义和目标的人交谈时，在原谅自己、对自己能控制和不能控制的事情负责的前提下。

So when you're talking to people who feel like they have a lack of meaning and purpose and under the auspices of forgive yourself and be responsible for the things you can control and can't control.

当有人陷入困境时，有没有一些方法或练习来激发向上的螺旋，比如说，在我们谈到目标和意义、到达理想之地之前，如果你现在真的感到迷茫，有没有一些常用的方法或技巧来开始重建？

When someone is struggling, are there certain means of trying to inspire an upward spiral or exercise for saying all right, before we even get to the purpose and meaning in the promised land, if you really feel lost right now, are there a set of like go to's or hacks to begin to build back?

嗯，我会谈谈原型设计。

Well, I'll talk about prototyping.

你想谈的是？

You wanna talk about?

意义，是的。

Meaning, yeah.

意义，抱歉。

Meaning, sorry.

好，你说吧。

Yeah, go ahead.

所以我们在课堂上、书里，还有所有其他内容里，整个理念就是：把目标定低一点，完成它，再来一次，再来一次，再来一次。

So our whole, in class, in the books, everything else, the philosophy is set the bar low, clear it, do it again, do it again, do it again.

詹姆斯·克利尔的《原子习惯》。

James Clear's Atomic Habits.

对，

Yeah,

是的。

yeah.

小步，做小的改变。

Small, make small changes.

我们说的，设计师有两种重要的心态。

What we talk about, designers have two mindsets that are important.

好奇心。

Curiosity.

就算你真的处于最低谷，也总有些让你好奇的东西，对吧？

Even if you're really at the lowest of low, there's something you're curious about, right?

然后是原型制作。

And then prototyping.

原型制作就是做个小实验。

Prototyping is just run a little experiment.

去找那些对你感兴趣的事情感兴趣的人聊聊，或者找那些有点相关经验的人聊聊，体验一下你好奇的事情。

Talk to somebody who's interested, who's doing the thing that you're interested in or have a little experience of doing something that you're curious about.

这些小原型能帮你积累动力，也会增强你的好奇心，因为如果你是个好奇的人，现在世界上有很多事情都特别有意思。

And these small prototypes build a sense of momentum and increases your curiosity because if you're a curious person, there's a lot of stuff in the world going on right now that's really interesting.

所以，如果你从小处着手，做点小实验，不断向前推进，你最终会找到一条合适又让你感觉舒服的路。

And so if you start small, build little prototype experiments and just keep moving forward, you'll eventually find some track that fits and feels good.

这样你就能摆脱那种存在主义的困惑，那种“我根本不知道从哪里开始”的问题。

And that's how you get out of the sort of existential, I don't even know where to start question.

对，没有所谓的想明白这回事。

Yeah, there is no figuring it out.

只有继续往前走。

There's only getting on with it.

所以我四个星期前结婚了。

So I got married four weeks ago.

就在那里，第三排那位可爱的女士，不知为什么

And right there, the darling woman in the third row who for some reason

愿意嫁给他。

is willing to put her.

你妻子来看你演讲？

Your wife comes to see you speak?

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很抱歉。

I am so sorry.

嗯，她还在保修期内。

Well she's still under warranty.

我是说。

I mean.

你四个星期前结婚了。

You got married four weeks ago.

我们四个星期前结婚了。

We got married four weeks ago.

恭喜，那真好。

Congratulations, that's nice.

是的。

Yeah.

她在旧金山经营了一家画廊，叫弗兰克尔画廊，经营了四十年，但二十年前她决定，我觉得我还应该做点别的事情。

And she ran an art gallery here in San Francisco for forty years, the Frankel Gallery, but twenty years ago decided, I think there's something else I'm supposed to do too.

她当时不知道是什么。

Had no idea what it was.

所以她一直没找到方向。

So she's stuck.

但你只要专注于你懂的东西。

But you just lean into what you know.

别担心你不懂的，专注于你懂的。

Quit worrying about what you don't know, and lean into what you do know.

好。

Okay.

所以也许就是这个。

So maybe it's this.

也许她在读书。

Maybe and she's reading.

她在想，哦，也许是姑息治疗。

She's thinking, oh, maybe it's it's palliative care.

我读过一篇文章，姑息治疗。

I read an article, palliative care.

那是什么？

What's that?

我觉得可能跟那个有关。

I think it might have something to do with that.

我查过那个。

Looked into that.

也许我可以成为一名跨信仰的牧师。

Maybe I could become an interfaith chaplain.

不行，这行不通。

No, it doesn't work.

我没法去上医学院。

I can't go to med school.

我都60岁了，你知道，45岁。

I'm 60, you know, 45 years old.

我还有孩子，不管怎样。

I have a kid, whatever it is.

然后，你知道，十年后，她坐在亚利桑那州图森市的阳光下，突然想到，你可以帮别人写信。

And then, you know, ten years after that, she's sitting in the sun in Tucson, Arizona, and it hits her, you could help people write letters.

她真的像是受到了召唤，然后她说，对。

She literally gets a calling, and she goes, yes.

我可以做这个。

I could do that.

这到底是什么意思？

What the hell does that mean?

我不明白那是什么意思。

I don't what that means.

所以她现在是一名信件助产士，帮助人们书写他们生命中重要的信件。

So she's she's now a letter midwife, and she assists people writing the essential letters of their lives.

她已经做了800次了。

She's done that 800 times.

她有一本书十月份出版，全是关于这个的，叫《未完成的事》。

She's got a book coming out in October all about it called Unfinished Business.

所以只要你一直坚持下去，大约二十年后，事情就开始变得清晰了。

And so if you just keep leaning into it, after about twenty years or so, it starts getting clear.

这就是做人的本质。

It's called being a human being.

所以如果你卡住了，就找出你被什么吸引，然后迈出一步。

So if you're stuck, just identify what you are drawn toward and make a move.

哪怕只是聊个天、开个头、读篇文章，或者别的什么，你都在进步。

Even if it's a conversation or a start or reading an article or whatever it might be, you're making progress.

别老问自己：我修好了吗？

Don't measure, have I fixed it yet?

我解决了吗？

Have I solved it yet?

我在行动吗？

Am I making a move?

这就是典型的设计思维。

This is the classic design thinking thing.

戴维·凯利，他创办了d.school和IDEO，算是这类事情的领军人物。

David Kelly, runs the d school and IDO and is the kind of the king of all this stuff.

他会说，我们是通过行动来前进的。

He would say, we build our way forward.

直接去动手做，做个简单的模型，写几封信。

Just go build Build a little prototype, write a couple letters.

找个人聊聊，比如那些即将失去亲人的人，或者助产士。

Sit with somebody, you know, who's about to lose someone they love and know, her midwife.

这个描述很贴切。

That's a great description.

做点东西，看看会发生什么。

Build something and see what happens.

因为一旦你做出了一个模型，可能的世界就已经改变了。

Because as soon as you build a prototype, the world that is possible just changed.

这种情况我见过无数次了。

I've seen this a million times.

我在苹果公司待了七年。

I was at Apple for seven years.

我们做了个原型，把它放在一个房间里，我们站在玻璃窗后面，有人开始摆弄它，他们就会意识到，哦，如果你能做到这个，那我就能做到这个、这个和这个。

We build a prototype, something we put it in a room, you know, we'd stand behind the window and the glass, and somebody would start playing with it, they'd realize, oh, if you could do this, I could do this or this and this.

然后你就会说，没错。

And you're like, yep.

一旦你有了原型，你就改变了可能的世界。

As soon as you have a prototype, you change the world as possible.

所以，做点什么，随便什么都行，你就能摆脱困境。

So build something, anything, and you'll get unstuck.

我们稍作休息，马上回来。

We'll be right back after a quick break.

你们公司用了多少家第三方供应商？

How many third party vendors does your company use?

20家？

20?

200家？

200?

多亏了AI，你们团队这周可能又加了三个。

Thanks to AI, someone on your team probably added three more this week.

而你的安全负责人完全不知道。

And your security lead has no idea.

传统的第三方风险管理已经跟不上了。

Traditional third party risk management can't keep up.

Vanta能自动覆盖所有供应商，让你真正了解自己的技术栈，并知道该怎么应对。

Vanta gives you continuous coverage across every vendor automatically so you actually know what's in your stack and what to do about it.

AI开启，风险降低。

AI on, risk off.

Vanta.com/tprm。

Vanta.com/tprm.

所以我想问的问题是，顺序执行还是并发执行。

So the question I would have is sequential versus concurrent.

也就是说，90年代我从商学院毕业时，我不想拯救鲸鱼，也不想当好人，我只想发大财。

And that is, when I got out of the High School of Business in the 90s, I didn't want to save the whales, didn't want to be a good person, I wanted to get mad rich.

因为那是我长大的地方，那时候没钱，而且对我来说，除了工作，我什么都没干。

Because that's where I grew up with no money and it was just And very important to I did nothing but work.

我没有目标，也没有意义。

I had no purpose, I had no meaning.

这让我掉了头发，也毁了我的第一段婚姻，但绝对值得。

It cost me my hair, it cost me my first marriage, and it was absolutely worth it.

现在我有经济保障了，可以试着想想，好吧，我能不能找到点什么？

Now I have the economic security to try and think about, all right, can I find something?

我能不能在将来某个时候产生一些积极的影响？

Can I have some influence that might be positive somewhere down the road?

我想说的是，我不喜欢科技社区的一点是，他们假装关心世界，却让青少年抑郁，就为了卖更多广告，赚一大笔钱。

And I would argue, one of the things I don't like about the tech community is they pretend to give a shit about the world while depressing teens so they can sell more advertising and make a shit ton of money.

我就想说，干脆承认吧，你现在就是为了赚钱和经济保障，然后希望以后能用你的钱去做点有意义的事。

And I'm like just come out of the closet and say you're about making money and economic security right now, and then hopefully you'll go on to do something with your money.

这就是我所做的。

And that's what I've done.

我想问的是，把目的或意义分阶段来考虑，而不是同时考虑，这样可以吗？

And I guess my question is, is it okay to think about purpose or meaning sequentially as opposed to concurrently?

当然可以。

Well sure.

而且首先，当你还是个贪婪的资本家时，你并不是没有目的。

And first of all, you weren't without purpose when you were just a rapacious capitalist.

你有一个目标。

You you had a goal.

对。

Yeah.

而且你实现了它。

And you met it.

你为它做出了牺牲。

And you sacrificed for it.

你后来可能改变了想法，这倒是个不错的总结。

You may have changed your mind about it later and it makes for a good one liner.

但说实话，你很可能还会再那么做。

But the truth is you'd probably do it again.

你看，我们做决定。

Look, we make decisions.

你是在权衡取舍。

You optimize for one thing versus another.

顺便说一句，这就是为什么我们不得不写第三本书。

And this is why we had to write a third book, by the way.

疫情过后，紧接着是大辞职潮，五千两百万人离职去寻找更好的机会。

So after the pandemic and then the great resignation, 52,000,000 people walk off the job looking for something better.

对。

Yeah.

我们每个人要么自己经历过，要么身边有人经历过存在主义危机。

We'd all either had or had sat next to somebody who went through an existential crisis.

于是问题就来了，哇。

And so the question gets raised, wow.

这够好了吗？

Is this good enough?

就这样了吗？

Is this it?

而霍尔曼的团队说不够。

And Holman's people said no.

你们中有多少人在过去五年里至少辞职过一次？

How many of you quit in the last five years at least once?

好的。

Okay.

房间里大约有20%的人。

20% of the room.

对吧？

Right?

不是因为当时一切都很顺利。

Not because it was going great.

所以当我们开始收到人们的反馈时，发现那行不通。

And so when we started hearing back from people, that didn't work.

我们听到了两种说法。

We heard two things.

我就是觉得不满足。

I'm just not fulfilled.

对。

Yep.

或者我没有产生我想要的影响。

Or I'm not having the impact I want to.

对。

Yep.

我们听到的大多数是关于影响力。

We overwhelmingly heard that mostly impact.

大概八比二，影响力和满足感，我们深入研究后发现，如果你只追求这两种意义来源，那都是死胡同。

It's about eighty twenty impact of fulfillment, and we looked into that, and both of those are dead ends if that's the only form of meaning making you're looking for.

对。

Yeah.

所以它们是好事。

So they're a good thing.

我们现在就想产生影响，对吧？

We're trying to have an impact right now, right?

我们写了本书，因为希望它能影响人们的生活。

We wrote a book because we hope it'll impact people's lives.

但如果影响——它是个东西，而你又不是东西——即使它有效，那种光芒也很短暂，而且大多数时候它根本不起作用，所以那是个死胡同。

But if impact, which is a thing and you're not a thing, and even if it works, the glow is short lived, and most of the time it doesn't work, So that's a dead end.

那就像在跑步机上跑。

That's a treadmill.

而满足感，就是马斯洛告诉你的，你想成为的，自我实现，成为你能成为的一切。

And fulfillment, which is what Maslow told you you wanted to be, become self actualized, become all that you can be.

我们知道你不可能成为你能成为的一切，因为我们每个人都比一辈子能活出的样子更大。

And we know you can't be all you can be because all of us are bigger than a lifetime's worth of a person.

你心里不止一个自己，所以你不可能把完整的自己展现出来。

There's more than one of you in there, so you can't manifest your whole self.

这不可能，但这也是好消息。

That's impossible, and that's the good news.

所以其他创造意义的方式，发生在我们称之为“流动世界”的地方，而那个我们完成任务的事务性世界是另一回事。

So other forms of meaning making, which occur in a place we call the flow world, the transactional world where we get stuff done is one thing.

流动世界，就是现在正在发生的事情。

The flow world, which is what's actually happening right now.

所以现在，我是在想，嗯，不知道这周能不能推动销售，还有，斯科特能不能够及时把数字版做出来？

So right now, am I thinking about, gee, I wonder if this is gonna move the needle on sales this week, and, you know, is Scott gonna get this thing out digitally fast enough?

还是我在想这些人在想什么，我们是不是真的在帮到他们？

Or wonder what's on these people's minds, and are we actually being helpful?

我是在这里，还是心不在焉？

Am I here, or am I somewhere else?

对。

Right.

而且就在这个当下，不管你的生活顺不顺，不管这是不是一份完美的事业，是的。

And in this place called here, regardless of whether or not your life is working, regardless whether or not this is a perfect career Yeah.

就在此时此刻，你活得更充实的机会非常大。

Right here, right now, your chance of being more alive is extremely high.

你可以在继续规划未来更好生活的同时，从现有的生活中获得更多。我们有四个地方可以做到这一点：好奇、心流、连贯性和有意义的社群。不过，你知道，那是四章的内容。

You can get more out of the life you're already in while you're still trying to design a better life down the road, and there are four places we can do that, which are wonder, flow, coherence, and informative community, but, you know, that's four chapters.

但也有一些小技巧，可以说是捷径。

And so but there are things, there are hacks, if you will.

这本书里有21个工具，教你如何立刻获得更多意义。

We have 21 tools in this book describing ways to get your hands on more meaning right now.

你不需要花九年时间去培养正念习惯。

You don't have to spend the next nine years developing a mindfulness practice.

如果你想做，那当然很好。

That's cool if you want to do it.

你也不需要去荒野里饿四十天。

You don't have to go forty days in the wilderness starving.

意义是在当下时刻中产生的。

Meaning is made in moments.

而当下时刻是在这种此时此地的流动状态中形成的。

Moments are made in this here and now flow place.

我们教人们成为时刻的设计师。

And we teach people to be moment designers.

我想谈谈伴侣关系。

I want to talk about partnership.

好的。

Okay.

我发现，在资本主义社会里，你必须具备经济能力，尤其是作为男人。

And that is, I have found that at capitalist society you have to be economically viable, especially as a man.

如果这冒犯了某些人，我很抱歉，但75%的女性认为经济能力对伴侣至关重要，而只有25%的男性这么认为。

And if that offends people, I'm sorry, 75% of women say economic viability is essential to a mate, it's only 25% of men.

男人不在乎。

Men don't care.

就是克里斯·洛克讲的那个笑话，保安可以在肯德基工作，而玛丽·J·布莱姬不行，反过来就不成立。

It's that joke that Chris Rock makes that the bouncer could work at KFC and Mary Jay Z, the opposite is not true.

在旧金山，高攀婚姻依然存在。

And in San Francisco, hypergamy is still alive and well.

教育上的高攀已经减少了。

Educational hypergamy has been reduced.

现在有很多女性的学历比她们的伴侣更高。

There are now a lot of women who have greater levels of certification than the men than the partners they're with.

但在旧金山，如果你遇到一对情侣，男方收入比女方高的可能性是两倍。

But in San Francisco still, if you meet a couple, the man is twice as likely to make more money than the woman.

尽管在旧金山，我们现在有幸有了所谓的男女收入平等，但一旦女性有了孩子，职场又会把她们拉下来。

Even despite the fact that in San Francisco we now have fortunately this wonderful thing called income parity among men and women until women have kids and then the corporate world takes them down again.

总之，我惊讶地发现，金钱只是手段，而真正重要的是没有经济焦虑的有意义的关系。

Anyways, I have found, much to my surprise, that the money was the means, but the ends was meaningful relationships with an absence of economic anxiety.

这才是关键，对吧？

That that's the point, right?

对。

Right.

而且，醒来后希望能找到一个真正好的伴侣，随着我年纪渐长，我发现这是人生中最、百分之百最值得的事情。

And that waking up and hopefully finding that you're in a really good partnership is, as I get older, I find the most, 100% the most rewarding thing in life.

而且我觉得，说实话，我真的是运气特别好。

And I feel as if I just got, quite frankly, just really lucky.

我选伴侣的标准就是：我是不是真的很想和这个人上床？

And my criteria for picking a partner was would I really like to have sex with this person?

就这个。

That's it.

这就是起点，也是终点。

That's where it started, that's where it ended.

结果我找到了一个非常好的伴侣。

And I ended up in a really good partnership.

怎么能比我当时更用心呢？

How can you be more thoughtful than I was?

其实那倒不难。

Well that wouldn't be hard actually.

但我们在选择伴侣时，怎样才能更用心，从而拥有长久、有意义且充实的人生呢？

But how can we be more thoughtful around picking partners that result in long term meaningful rewarding lives?

比如，如果你在建议孩子考虑结婚或同居，有没有一些他们应该问自己但没问的标准问题？

Like what if you're advising your kids as they're thinking about getting married or moving in with someone, are there a set of criteria questions people should be asking themselves that they don't?

约瑟夫？

Joseph?

嗯，我想到一句老话：最好的婚姻是双方都觉得自己占了便宜。

Well, just occurred to me there's an old saying that the best marriages are when each person thinks they got the best deal.

我当然觉得自己占了便宜。

Certainly I got the best deal.

我妻子辛西娅非常棒。

My wife Cynthia is amazing.

我确实占了便宜。

I got the best deal.

我不知道她为什么能忍受我，但我觉得这太棒了。

I don't know why she puts up with me, but I think it's amazing.

我问过她，她说：不不不，其实我才是占便宜的那个，因为你善良、人又好，等等等等。

And I've asked her and she says, no, no, no, I actually I got the better of the deal because you're kind and you're nice and blah, blah, blah, blah.

所以我觉得你要找的是那种你觉得，不是你不配，而是你觉得你会占到最大便宜的情况。

So I think you're looking for a situation where you think you, not that you don't deserve it, but you think that you're going to get the best deal.

而且这个人会莫名其妙地被你吸引。

And that this person is irrationally attracted to you.

如果你找到了这种感觉，而且双方都有，你看，那边，那边，那边，牵着手呢，那挺好的。

If you got that and it goes both ways, see there, there, there, holding hands there, that's good.

那我觉得这就是你要找的。

Then I think that's what you're looking for.

不过你还有一点更现代的。

But you have a little more current.

对。

Yeah.

我结婚三十八年了，所以都忘了当初为什么结婚。

I mean I've been married thirty eight years so I forget why we got married.

你指了他们，所以我忍不住。

You pointed out them, so I can't help it.

我看着你们俩。

I'm looking at both of you.

那哥们儿赚到了。

The dude got the better deal.

相信我。

Trust me on that.

抱歉，你继续说。

Sorry, go ahead.

是真的。

It's true.

是真的。

It's true.

他们今天早上在大厅见的面。

They met in the lobby this morning.

总之，首先呢，其实是有科学依据的。

Anyway, well first of all, there actually is science.

我的意思是，实际上这个问题是有一些很好的答案的。

I mean, the truth is there are some pretty good answers to this.

我是说，咨询领域和关系发展领域已经存在很久了，我有个强烈的观点，但我碰巧是对的。

I mean, so the field of counseling and the field of relational development has been around for a long time, and strong opinion, but I happen to be right.

这方面最好的研究是西雅图戈特曼研究所的约翰和朱莉·戈特曼做的，他们说，我们不需要争论理论观点或心理学模型。

The best work on that is by John and Julie Gottman in the Gottman Institute out of Seattle, and they said, you know, we don't need to argue theoretical ideas or psychological models about this.

我们只需要观察什么有效，什么无效。

We just need to observe what works and what doesn't.

所以约翰和朱莉建立了爱情实验室，然后多年来给人们录像，评估他们的关系，从行为上识别出婚姻和伴侣关系中的高手和灾难。

So John and Julie put together the Love Lab, and then videotaped people for years and evaluated relationships, and identified behaviorally what are the masters and disasters of marriage and partnership relationship.

这些都有充分的记录，他还写了一本书叫《八次约会》。

And it's all been well documented, and he's got a book called In Eight Dates.

那么，你需要问哪些问题呢？

I mean, so what are the questions you need to ask?

要问哪些事情呢？比如价值观是否一致，还有你们对未来的共同愿景是什么样的。

What are the things it's values alignment, you know, image of what your future looks like together.

有几件比较理性的事情，你了解了就能好好相处；如果错过这些话题，很可能关系就会搞砸。

There are a couple of pretty rational things you can understand that will allow you to partner well, and if you miss those topics, you're probably gonna partner poorly.

所以，去做功课吧。

So do the work.

你知道，去读读戈特曼的书，然后实践起来。

You know, read the Gottman stuff and and apply it.

那是比较客观的一面。

Now that's sort of the objective side.

然后还有比较玄学的一面。

Then there's the the cosmic side.

就拿我自己来说吧，我结过三次婚，一次很糟糕，两次非常棒。

You know, in my own case, I've been married three times, you know, and well once and fabulously twice.

所以我结了二十四年婚，然后离婚了。

So I was married for twenty four years, then divorced.

然后我娶了我一生的挚爱，但她因癌症去世了，几周前我又娶了我第二段挚爱。

Then I married the love of my life and lost her to cancer, and have married the second love of my life a couple of weeks ago.

我和我的第一任妻子仍然是朋友。

And my first wife and I are still friends.

我的意思是，我们共同把孩子抚养得很好，我们什么都做得很好，就是夫妻关系不行，我们试了又试，想修复关系，但根本问题不在，最后我们友好地结束了这段关系。

I mean, we raised kids really well together, we just did everything but husband and wife well, and we tried and tried and tried to fix it, and the raw material just wasn't there, and we finally put the dog down kinda kindly.

所以我对这个有些想法，但每次，那种化学反应都是不可否认的。

So I've got some thoughts on this, but in each case, the chemistry thing is unmistakable.

我对我的第二任妻子克劳迪娅，还有弗里斯奇，完全被迷住了。

I was absolutely gobsmacked by Claudia, my second wife, and by Frisch.

她来办公室找我，我简直被震撼到了。

She came to office hours, and I mean it just knocked me out.

她曾是我的学生。

She was a student of mine.

她只比我小八个月，所以不涉及Title IX违规。

Was only eight months my junior, so it wasn't a Title IX violation.

但我不得不

But I had to

提交一份Title IX申报。

do a Title IX filing.

我就想，谢谢你提交申报。

And I'm like, thank you for filing.

会没事的。

It's gonna be okay.

如果你69岁，她68岁，那没问题。

If you're 69 and she's 68, it's okay.

如果你69岁，她25岁，你被开除，而且活该。

If you're 69 and she's 25, you're fired, and you should be.

化学反应这回事很重要。

The chemistry thing matters.

所以我和我已故的妻子有个说法，因为我们的婚姻是别人羡慕的那种，他们总问，你们是怎么做到的？

So my late wife and I had the line, because we had a marriage people wanted, how'd you guys get it?

我们唯一想到的答案就是，一个健康的人，去和另一个健康的人结婚或在一起。

And the only line we came up with is be a healthy person who marries or partners with a healthy person.

所谓健康，就是了解自己是谁，知道自己的包袱在哪里，而且身边有人能指出你的问题。

By healthy, like know who you are, know where your baggage is, and have people in your life who can call you on your crap.

你知道，比尔就经常指出我的问题。

You know Bill calls me on my crap all the time.

所以，做一个健康的人，为了爱去和一个健康的人结婚。

So be a healthy person who marries a healthy person for love.

光有爱是不够的，但如果没有爱，那日子就太难了。

Love isn't enough, but if you don't have it, it's pretty tough.

那你们俩加起来，一共有10个孩子？

So between the two of you, you have 10 kids?

我有三个。

I got three.

他有七个。

He's got seven.

七个，那正好。

Seven, so there you go.

十一个孙辈，是的。

11 grandkids, yeah.

所以我想聊一聊，其实我想问一个关于人生目标的问题。

So I wanna talk a little bit, well actually I'll ask a question about purpose.

我先提出一个观点。

I'll put forward a thesis.

那就是，我以前从没怎么想过人生目标。

And that is, I never thought much about purpose.

我发现，目标是从你某天醒来时自然涌现出来的。我以前对待工作和生活的方式，是一种资本主义式的交易模式。

And what I have discovered is that purpose bubbles up from you wake up one day, I used to approach work and life in a capitalist transactional format.

我是不是从这段和女朋友的关系中得到的，比我能得到的更多？

Am I getting more from this relationship with a girlfriend than maybe I'm getting?

我是不是付给这个人的钱比他们应得的少？

Am I paying this person less than they're worth?

那就是我的目标。

That was my goal.

我想在每一笔交易中都站在正确的一边。

I wanted to be on the right side of every transaction.

后来我年纪大了，才意识到如果你总是处于交易的劣势一方，却仍然参与其中，并且还能从中得到某种回报，我举个例子。

And then as I got older, I realized that if you're constantly on the negative side of a transaction, and you still engage in it, and still get some sort of reward for it, I'll use an example.

我对我的儿子们永远得不到正的投资回报率。

I am never gonna get a positive ROI on my boys.

我就是觉得他们永远不会在凌晨两点担心我。

I just don't think they're ever gonna be up at two am worried about me.

不管他们把我送去的养老院有多好，我都不在乎。

I don't care how nice the home they stick me and ship me off to is.

我肯定会比他们花更多的钱。

I'm just gonna spend way more money than them.

然而我每天还是乐此不疲地继续做这种亏本的投资。

And yet every day I enjoy continuing to make this negative investment.

这就是我的

That's my

使命。

purpose.

对。

Right.

我觉得也许有一天你会醒来，说，我一直在那个不杀生的动物收容所里做义工。

And that is, I think maybe someday you wake up and say, I keep donating time at this no kill animal shelter.

就算他们给我立个雕像，也抵不上我在这里投入的时间。

They could build a statue for me and it wouldn't be worth the time I have invested here.

我

I

觉得这就是你找到使命的方式，就是你采取和我完全相反的做法，发现自己继续在某个事情上做这些荒唐的过度投入，而且感觉很自然。

think that's how you find, you wake up and say, well maybe this is my purpose, is that you take the exact opposite approach I took and find I continue to make these ridiculous overinvestments in something, and it feels natural.

感觉就是这样，说得通。

It feels, it makes sense.

对于把负回报率当作寻找人生目标的方法，你怎么看？

Thoughts on negative ROI as a means of finding your purpose.

不是所有重要的东西都能被衡量。

Not everything that counts can be measured.

你爱你的孩子们吗？

You love your boys?

当然。

Of course.

就是这样。

That's it.

没有所谓的负正之分。

There's no negative positive.

你爱你的孩子们。

You love your boys.

愿意为他们做任何事。

Do anything for them.

百分之百。

100%.

你问的是回报的问题，不是爱的问题。

You're asking the return question, not the love question.

对。

Right.

所以，

So,

不，我是说，你爱你的兄弟们。

no, mean, you no, love your boys.

我的意思是，所以你的目标就是把这份爱活出来。

I mean, so your purpose is walking that out.

所以，一个辨别的问题——我是社会影响力创业加速器的辨别负责人，我经常问人们的一个辨别问题是，你要带着期待去走你的人生路。

So one of the discernment questions, I'm the discernment lead in a social impact venture accelerator, and a discernment question I ask people all the time is to, you know, know, walk in your life expectantly.

对。

Right.

所以要保持好奇心。

So be curious.

倾听内心的渴望。

Listen for longing.

你这话是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

倾听内心的声音，听听你自己的心声。

Listen for long listen to your own heart.

你在乎什么？

What do you care about?

你渴望什么？

What do you long for?

是什么让你充满活力？

What is it that makes you come alive?

你会为什么而哭泣？

What do you weep for?

说实话，是什么让你感到痛苦？

Frankly, what brings you pain?

对。

Yep.

你知道吗，这就是你要投入的方向。

You know, that's what you lean into, you know.

而我们认为，这就是作为人的意义所在。

And that's what we would argue it means to be human beings.

你看，我们是鲍勃·瓦尔丁格的朋友，他是哈佛大学人类行为成人研究项目的最终负责人，这是地球上持续时间最长的人类研究，跨越三代人，长达七十五年。

Look, we're friends with Bob Waldinger, the final project manager of the Harvard Adult Study of Human Behavior, longest running study of humans ever done on the planet, three generations, seventy five years.

你知道吗，鲍勃·瓦尔丁格的前任乔治·瓦利恩特曾说，幸福就是爱，就这么简单。

You know, the predecessor to Bob Waldinger, George Valiant, would say happiness is love, full stop.

这项研究。

The study.

科学就是这么说的。

That's what the science says.

对，对，那个大研究。

Yeah, yeah, the grand study.

是的，我之前和这些先生们做过一期播客，而且……

Yeah, and I've done a podcast with these gentlemen before and

我把它当作一个获得廉价心理治疗的机会。

I use it as a chance to just get cheap therapy.

我的使命一直是培养为他人服务的人。

My purpose has been to raise men for others.

不错。

Cool.

没想到这句话会引来掌声。

Wasn't expecting applause from that.

我刚把我最大的孩子送进大学，说实话，我挺挣扎的，因为我在想，我的使命是什么？

And I just dropped my oldest off at college, and quite frankly I'm struggling because I'm like, what's my purpose?

那咱们换个角度看看，你会发现，好吧，我的目标一直是努力培养出好的人。

So let's go to the other end and you find, okay, my purpose has been trying to raise good humans.

说实话，我做到了。

And quite frankly, I did my job.

我已经没用了。

I'm obsolete.

我刚刚才明白，就是这样了。

I've just figured out like that's it.

当你觉得自己失去了目标感时，你会怎么做？

What do you do when you feel like you've lost a sense of purpose?

突然就安静下来了。

Just got very quiet.

嗯，你知道，我确实经历过。

Well you know, I did.

我和我妻子在孩子们上大学之前很久就遇到了那种存在主义的时刻，我们当时说，你知道，会有很多次我们不在场，他们必须自己做正确的决定。

My wife and I came to that sort of existential moment a long time before they went off to college and we said, you know, there's going be a whole bunch of times when we're not in the room and they have to make the right decision.

所以我们要做的是教他们如何根据自己的了解做出正确的决定。

So what we got to do is teach them how to make a good decision based on how they know themselves.

所以你还没完呢。

So you're not done yet.

你的孩子上大学了，你知道大学是怎么回事。

Your kids at college, you know what college is gonna be all about.

没有人会在二十五周年聚会上说，天哪，我记得那次化学期末考试我考得很好，太棒了。

No one ever goes to their reunion, their twenty fifth reunion and says, man, I remember that chemistry final that I got a good grade on, that was awesome.

他们不会说那种话。

They don't say that thing.

我记得那次我们喝醉了从屋顶上摔下来，你知道，然后我们，然后我们，那才是你儿子希望经历的，而你训练了他，教他做出正确的决定。

I remember that time when we all got drunk and fell off the roof, you know, and then we, then we, that's what hopefully, you know, your son is going to experience, and you've trained, you've taught him to make good decisions.

所以你还没完呢。

So you're not done yet.

因为现在他要在大学上做决定，然后要在研究生院上做决定，然后要在娶谁上做决定。

Because now he's gonna make a decision about college, then he's gonna make a decision about grad school, then he's gonna make a decision about who he marries.

而且你有机会看着，陪着他一起经历这些。

And you get a chance to watch and to walk alongside him with that.

所以你不是，你知道，我总说，我已经不算是真正的父亲了，我只是个顾问。

So you're not, you know, I always say like, I'm no longer really a father, I'm just a consultant.

我的孩子比戴夫的年轻，但他们都已经出去工作了。

And my kids are younger than Dave's, but they're all out working.

他们分别是31岁、33岁和35岁。

Know, my they're 31, 33 and 35.

他们都在外面工作。

They're all out working.

他们都做出了好的选择。

They all make good choices.

他们都选了很好的伴侣。

They all picked great partners.

所以我和我妻子

And so my wife and

我们就像，对，击个掌。

I are like, yeah, high five.

干得好。

Good job.

戴夫，七个孩子的父亲。

Dave, father of seven.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我的意思是，我同意你的看法。

I I mean, I'm with you on

我父亲在我九岁时自杀了。

I really my father died of suicide when I was nine.

我没有父亲。

I didn't have a father.

我真的很想成为一个父亲。

I really wanted to be one.

其实除了当爸爸，我什么都不想做。

I actually didn't wanna be anything other than a dad.

我不想成功。

I didn't wanna be successful.

我不想出名。

I didn't wanna be famous.

我不想变得重要。

I didn't wanna be important.

我只想当一个好爸爸。

I just wanted to be a good dad.

你明白吗？

Know?

我忘了应该先做个好丈夫，所以第一次婚姻里我在这方面做得不好，后来才慢慢学会，但不管怎样。

I forgot you should be a good husband first, so that's why I kinda got bad at that the first time around, and learned my way forward, but nonetheless.

我记得我大儿子去上大学后的那个星期，我上楼经过走廊，路过他的房间时，门是开着的。

And I remember walking upstairs and passing, going down the hallway the week after my eldest son went to college, and I passed by his room and the door was open.

走过他门口四步远的地方，我突然就哭了出来。

And four feet past his door, I burst into tears.

我也不知道为什么。

I had no idea why.

我往房间里一看，里面很整洁。

And I looked in the room and it was neat.

我以前从没见过他房间这么整齐。

I had never seen it that way before.

我就想，哦，我内心深处有什么东西，哪怕只是眼角余光扫到，也能感觉到他已经不在了。

And I went, oh, there's something deep in me that even in my peripheral vision picks up, he's gone.

对。

Right.

我真的很想念那种感觉。

And I really miss that.

所以这是件大事。

So it's a big deal.

但这是有意的。

It's a But

这是有意的，而且很重要。

big that was purposeful.

所以比尔和我经常聊，你知道，我们不赞成你像找某个东西一样去找你的目标。

So Bill and I talk a lot about, you know, we're not in favor of you trying to find your purpose like there's an it.

没有那个东西。

There is no it.

你只是学会如何有目标地生活。

There's just you learn how to live purposefully.

它应该是个形容词或副词，而不是名词。

It should be an adjective or an adverb, not a noun.

没有一个固定的目标。

There's not a purpose.

你没有失去你的目标。

You didn't lose your purpose.

你其实已经做到了。

You succeeded at it.

所以先庆祝一下，然后为那份热爱的工作即将离开而难过。

So first you have a party, and then you grieve the fact that I love that job, and now it's going away from me.

然后你开始寻找下一个机会。

And then you start looking for the next invitation.

我觉得生活中充满了各种邀请。

I think life is full of invitations.

你有没有在留意？

Are you paying attention?

你得学会留意。

You have to learn to pay attention.

你得活在当下，稍微反思一下。

You have to be present in the moment, a little bit reflective.

哦，嗨，斯科特，你是做什么的？

Oh, hi Scott, what do you do?

我是教授。

I'm a professor.

别再问我做什么了。

Stop asking me what I do.

我不是一个“做事的人”。

I'm not a human doing.

我是一个“存在的人”。

I'm a human being.

你知道吗？

You know?

好吧，行。

Okay, fine.

嗯，与其讲“存在”和“做事”的二元对立，我们教的是“存在、做事、成为”三位一体的循环。

Well, rather than the be do duality, we teach the be do become tri circle.

所以与其说是恶性二元对立，不如说是良性循环，你从你是谁开始。

So rather than vicious duality, the virtuous circle, you start with who you are.

我曾经是个爸爸。

I was a dad.

然后你去做事情。

Then you go do stuff.

你养育一个孩子。

You raise a kid.

你知道吗？

You know?

然后你变成了，哦，你变成了，你知道，一个孩子上大学的家长，手头有些时间，你反思这些，那成了新的存在状态。

And then you become, oh, you become, you know, the parent of college aged kids who's got some time in his hands, and that you reflect on that, that becomes the new being.

你去做一些不同的事情。

You do some you go do something different.

这就成了良性循环。

That becomes a virtuous cycle.

存在，行动，成为，存在，行动，成为。

Be, do, become, be, do, become.

就是这么回事。

That's the deal.

你一直在成为，直到生命的最后一刻。

You're becoming all the way to the very end.

你知道吗，她去世的那一周，我已故的妻子，在她开始真正失去理智的时候，选择不吃临终药物，她不想在没有大脑的情况下死去。

You know, the week she died, my my late wife, chose not to take the end of life drug when she started really losing it, and she didn't wanna die without her brain.

我说，你确定吗，亲爱的？

I said, are you sure, honey?

她说，不。

She goes, no.

即使情况变得很奇怪，我也想留下来。

Even if gets weird, I wanna stay.

三天后她就去世了。

And she died three days later.

可能还有最后一课，我不想错过。

There might be one more lesson, and I don't wanna miss it.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

本期节目由Odoo赞助播出。

Support for the show comes from Odoo.

如果你的业务分散在五个不同的应用、十二个浏览器标签页，还有一个谁都不敢碰的电子表格里，那可能是时候用Odoo了。

If your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odoo.

Odoo是一款一体化企业管理软件，能把业务的各个环节整合到一个强大且易用的平台上。

Odoo is an all in one business management software that connects every part of your business into one powerful, easy to use platform.

这样你就不用浪费时间在不同系统之间来回切换，整个业务可以实时协同工作。

So instead of wasting time switching between disconnected systems, your entire business works together in real time.

团队效率更高，数据更准确，你也能真正专注于发展业务。

Your team moves faster, your data stays accurate, and you can actually focus on growing your business.

让一个统一的系统来管理你的整个业务吧。

Let one unified system run your entire business.

从第一次机会到最终付款，所有环节都在一个地方协同运作。

From the first opportunity to the final payment, everything works together in one place.

无论你是小企业还是管理大型业务，Odoo都为你提供一个灵活的平台，随你成长。

Whether you're a small business or managing a large operation, Odoo gives you one flexible platform built to grow with you.

今天就免费试用，访问odoo.com/propg。

Try today for free at odoo.com/propg.

网址是odoo.com/propg。

That's odoo.com/propg.

我们回来了，继续和Bill和Dave的对话。

We're back with more from Bill and Dave.

我觉得现在是个好时机进入问答环节。

I think that's a good place to move to Q and A.

我想我们没法超越那个了。

I don't think we can top that.

我们这里有一位，我的同事Jennifer拿着麦克风。

So we have someone, my colleague Jennifer's here with a mic.

请举手，詹妮弗会过来。

Please raise your hand and Jennifer will roll over.

在我们

While we're

找人的时候，顺便提一下你那本关于培养年轻男性的书。

finding that person, a shout out to your book on raising young men.

谢谢。

Thank you.

确实，这确实是个危机。

Mean, it is a crisis.

谢谢。

Thank you.

年轻男性需要更多的指导，需要我们能给予的一切。

And young men need more mentorship, more everything we can give them.

所以，我的儿子，我最小的儿子去了波士顿的东北大学。

So, my son, my youngest is a son went off to Northeastern in Boston.

一周后，我们接到波士顿警方的电话。

A week later we get a call from the Boston police.

你儿子干了什么什么什么之类的。

Your son's done in blah blah blah blah.

我为了让我儿子上大学，已经请了三次律师了。

I I've had to get an attorney three times for my son to get to college.

他现在是华盛顿特区一位国会议员的幕僚长。

He's now chief of staff for a congressman in Washington DC.

他干得很不错。

He's doing great.

但可能你还需要更多的育儿操心，比你想的要多。

But it might be, there may be more parenting coming up than you know.

所以。

So.

关键是要被逮捕三次。

The key is to get arrested three times.

对。

Right.

请介绍一下你自己。

Please introduce yourself.

站起来，介绍一下自己。

Stand up, introduce yourself.

大家好，我是来自克利夫兰的丹。

Hi, I'm Dan from Cleveland.

你好，来自克利夫兰的丹。

Hi Dan from Cleveland.

我觉得很有意思，你们三个人都有孩子，而且这对你们的生活意义重大。

I find it interesting that all three of you had children and the meaning of that in your lives.

我也有类似的情况，所以这对我影响很大。

I'm in a similar situation, so it has a lot of impact for me.

对我来说，关键是要意识到，你只有这段时间来养育孩子，而且只有一次。

For me, though, it's been about just realizing you only get this time to raise your children and the one time.

然后你就完成了。

And then you're done.

也许你会有孙子孙女，对他们有些影响。

And maybe you'll have grandchildren and have some impact on them.

但这是一个过渡期。

But it's an in between.

我现在就处于这个过渡期。

I'm in an in between right now.

这是最好的说法。

That's the best way to put it.

孩子们都走了，他们有自己的生活，现在一切都结束了，对吧？

Where the kids are gone, they're doing their thing, and now it's over, right?

我是说，这是我能描述这种感觉的最好方式。

I mean, that's the best way I can describe the feeling.

对我来说，这种结束感让我有些挣扎。

A level of overness for me that I'm struggling with.