乔什·维茨金论学习的艺术

他们想学的都是在UFC或者桑武杰里看到的，还有那些在功夫电影里见过的中国武术招式。

They wanna learn all the stuff they've seen in the UFC or Sunun Mujals and, you know, or in the Chinese martial arts that they've seen, you know, in, you know, kung fu movies.

对吧？

Right?

而不是先打好最基本功。

As opposed to working on the most foundational skills first.

我觉得作为老师，这一点你特别厉害。

So I think that as a as a teacher, I think it's one thing that you're you're you're really awesome at.

我观察你带团队很久了，一直留意你是怎么对待每个人的。

I mean, I've watched you work with groups and observe the group for a long time and note how each person is.

我朋友丹经常跟我们一起冲浪。

Like, my buddy Dan has been surfing with us a lot.

就是丹·考菲尔德，我特别喜欢他。

You know, Dan Caulfield, who I I love.

他就像我亲兄弟一样。

He's a like a brother of mine.

他和我一起练过中国武术，一起学过柔术，现在又一起练桨板冲浪。

He and I took on Chinese martial arts together, we took on Jui Jitzu together, and now we're taking on paddle surfing together.

丹和我在学习方式上几乎是两个极端。

And Dan and I are kind of opposites around learning.

我看过你教我们的方式，完全不一样。

And I've watched you train us so differently.

你作为教练的观察能力，我觉得是你最大的优势之一。

So your ability to observe as a trainer, I think is one of your greatest strengths.

你一直是我很棒的教练，包容了我这种古怪又疯狂的学习方式。

And you've been a beautiful coach for me in that you've kind of rolled with my idiosyncratic crazy way of approaching the learning process.

我们一直在讨论这些原则，特别有意思，而且你一直是对的。

And we've had constant dialogue about these principles which has been lots of fun and you've been, you know, right.

我有个习惯，别人问我问题，我就先说我的看法，然后乔什通常会唱反调。

There's this process where I get asked a question and I give my opinion and then usually Josh will do the opposite.

大概一两个月后，他会说：埃里克，你当时说得对。

And then about a month or two later, hey, Eric, you were right about that.

这正是自我表达这个观点的另一面。

That's the other side of the self expression point.

是的。

Yeah.

但这样挺好。

But it's good.

你的成长是通过自己的方式一步步实现的。

I mean, you're getting there through your through your own processes.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得确实如此。

I think I think that yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

说到底，我作为学习者这一生中经历的最大危机，就是让一位国际象棋教练把我带离了自己的方向。

I mean, the thing is that I've in my in my life as a learner, I've had the biggest crisis that I had in my life my life period was when I allowed a coach in my chess career to push me away from my compass.

我觉得这段经历是我生命中最宝贵的经历之一，因为它让我明白了自我表达和相信直觉的重要性。

And I think that that's led that that experience has been one of the greatest experiences of my life because it's taught me about self expression and trusting my intuition.

但有时候我参与一项运动时，会想到国际象棋里的一个原则：如果你的对手设了个陷阱，作为一个新手，当你看到对方漏掉一个兵或者一个子，你就会怀疑是不是有圈套，于是拼命去查。

But sometimes when I'm taking on a sport, like there's this chess principle that like if if your opponent lays a trap for you, if you're an up and coming chess player, if you if if your opponent say hangs a pawn or hangs a piece and you're a young chess player and you're trying to to you feel like there's a trap there, but you look for it.

如果你花二十分钟仔细琢磨，结果还是觉得该吃那个兵，那就该吃——因为你如果不相信自己，反而去猜对方的心思，那你早就输了。

If you can't if you can't like, if you spend twenty minutes and you're and it looks like you should take the pawn, you should take the pawn because if you don't trust yourself if you're trusting your opponents over yourself, then you're lost.

你完全被对方牵着走了。

You're in their hands.

这其实是我性格中的一部分。

And so that's something that's kind of part of my personality.

我觉得这是我的核心优势，但有时候也可能是个弱点，因为我做事必须得内心觉得对得上才行。

I think it's a core strength and sometimes maybe a little bit of a weakness in that if in that I I do, like, it has to feel internally aligned for me.

没错。

Right.

用这种视角来接触艺术真的很有趣，因为我确实有几次跟你说过，埃里克，兄弟，我就要下单这个棋盘了。

It's been really interesting taking on this art through that lens because there's been, like, a couple boards I've I've I've called you on, Eric, dude, I I'm gonna order this board.

你觉得怎么样？

What do you think?

你肯定会说，乔什，过一周你就不想要了。

You're like, Josh, you're gonna in a week, you're gonna you're not gonna want anymore.

但我已经下单了，一周后我觉得它太大了。

And I've ordered it, and he's been a week later, I it felt too big.

但通过这个角度，我现在理解那些决定了。

But through that lens, I understand those decisions now.

因为如果你没做，你可能会想，我是不是该做呢？

Because if you didn't do it, then you'd might wonder, well, should I have Yeah.

我已经下单买了那块板。

I have ordered that board.

对。

Yeah.

所以从这个角度看，这就说得通了。

So so it makes sense through that lens.

咱们聊聊《峰值》这本书吧，我特别喜欢。

Let's talk about I love the book Peak.

我非常推崇安德斯·艾利克森的研究。

I'm a big fan of Anders Ericsson's work.

过去大概六个月到八个月，我花了很多时间思考技能提升这件事。

And where I have spent a lot of time in the last, I don't know, six, eight months really thinking about skill development.

我跟孩子相处时也一直在想这个。

And this is with my kids as well.

我待会儿想聊聊育儿方面的话题，不过先说一下，关于心理表征的概念——我和安德斯聊过这个，那期节目会在这期之后推出。

And I want to jump into some of the parenting conversation here in a bit, but, the idea of mental representations and the idea of, and I did talk with Anders and that episode will come out after this one.

就是那一期。

So that one.

但我们聊到一个点，我觉得他的书在定义心理表征上可能还不够深入。

But one of the conversations that we had is I don't know if I felt that his book went far enough in defining mental representations.

我觉得心理表征其实分好几种类型。

I believe that there are different types.

我觉得，技能的内心表征和决策的内心表征是不一样的。

I think that there's a difference in a representation of a skill versus a decision representation.

如果用冲浪来打比方，技能层面就是怎么快速站起来。

And when I look at this through the framework of surfing, a skill would be how to pop up.

这种动作是可以反复练习的。

Something that is highly replicable.

你甚至可以在泳池里练。

You can go practice it in a pool.

不管在哪，你都能练。

You can practice it wherever you want.

你可以跟着世界顶尖选手的节奏来学。

You can you can follow, the best guys in the world.

你可以仔细观察他们是怎么做的。

You can look at exactly how they do it.

这属于静态的动作技巧，而决策型的表征，比如判断浪的走势、决定该用哪个动作，就完全不同了。

And it's it's a non dynamic skill maneuver versus, the decision making representations, which are reading waves, knowing what maneuver to do.

我觉得这两者还是有点区别的。

And I think that they're a little bit separate.

我觉得得把它们分开定义，因为我不确定它们的运作方式是不是一样的。

I think that you need to define them differently because I don't know if they work the same.

那你的大脑是怎么看待这两种不同的学习方式的呢？

So, your mind, how do you see those different representations for learning skills?

也许我该先明确一下‘表征’是什么意思。

And maybe I should define representations here.

意思是，你脑子里能形成一个画面，一个可以模仿的模式。

The idea is that there is a visualization, something that you can form in your mind that you can replicate.

比如打网球，你想学安德烈·阿加西的正手击球。

So say, think about tennis and a forehand of tennis and you want to do Andre Agassi's forehand.

一开始，你脑子里的正手动作就是模仿阿加西的，直到你通过练习慢慢形成自己的风格，那时你的正手就不再是阿加西或埃里克·安东森的了。

That could be your mental representation for a tennis forehand until you replace it through work and you're able to do your own forehand and then it becomes emerged Andre Agassi, Eric Antonson forehand.

等你水平真正高了，那就不只是模仿了，那是你自己的正手，你甚至能形成一套属于自己的动作理念。

And then at some point when I get really good, it's my forehand and then maybe I can have my own representations about how that is.

这话说得有点绕啊。

That's a long convoluted thing.

不好意思，如果你没读过《峰值》这本书，可能真得先弄明白什么是心理表征。

I apologize, but I feel like if you haven't read the book Peak, you need to understand what a mental representation is.

你能说说心理表征是什么吗？你是怎么区分技能方面的心理表征和决策方面的心理表征的？

So can you talk about mental representations and how you see them for skills versus, decision making representations?

我这样理解有问题吗？

And am I looking at that wrong?

我是不是漏掉了什么？

Am I missing something here?

这事儿超出了我的专业范围，但一想到这个，我就觉得未必是同一回事。

This is outside of out of my realm, but when I think about this, I'm a little bit I don't think that the same thing.

我觉得你没理解错。

I don't think you're looking at wrong.

你只是从一个对你来说很自然的角度在看这个问题。

I think you're looking at it in a way that that makes sense to you.

你的学习能力可是世界级的。

I mean, you're a world class learner.

所以你那种理解学习的方式，其实是你自己的思维模型在起作用。

And so that like, that that way of mapping learning fits your that's your mental models.

至于我，我总是喜欢从主题的角度去梳理事物。

I mean, me, I'm always working on kind of mapping things thematically.

对吧？

Right?

我很久以前就建立了一张非线性的习惯地图，里面列出了我所有的核心习惯、技术细节、主题，还有更高层的宏观主题。

And so I think it's like, I have a a non local habit creation map that I created a long time ago with all of my my, like, core habits, technical dynamics, and then themes and then meta themes.

我学习的主要方式，就是搞清楚哪些技巧属于哪些原则，而这些原则又隶属于哪些宏观主题。

And a big way that I approach learning is to understand which techniques are housed under which principles, are housed under which meta themes.

我通过练习技巧来内化原则，再通过原则来内化宏观主题。

And I train at technique to internalize principle, to internalize meta theme.

最终，我训练的核心理念是：只要我理解了这个宏观主题，就能在脑海中勾勒出它，同时去打磨它的三种具体表现形式——久而久之，这个主题就会深深烙进我骨子里，而那些成百上千个由它衍生出来的技巧，也会自然成为我身体的一部分。

And ultimately, the essence of of my training is that if I understand that I can work on these three manifestations of a broader theme while visualizing the theme, ultimately, I'll burn in the theme and the hundreds or thousands of techniques that are manifestations of that theme will just become part of me.

对吧？

Right?

这是我加速成长的重要方式。

It's a big way that I amplify my growth curve.

对吧？

Right?

所以我有自己的方法，把技巧、原则和更高层的原则关联起来。

And so, like, I have my own way of sort of mapping technique and principle and then meta principle.

你能举个例子吗？我觉得我大概明白你的意思，但我想知道具体该怎么做才能真正内化某个主题。

Can you give an example of that so that I can understand I I think I understand where you're coming from, but I'd like to understand what you could drill on to internalize a certain theme.

当然。

Yeah.

我可以举成百上千个例子，不过你我之前聊雨的时候就挺有意思的。

I mean, I could give hundreds of examples, but like for you and I have had a lot of fun talking about rain.

对吧？

Right?

我们之前聊过一场特别搞笑的关于下雨的对话。

We've had this hilarious conversation about rain.

我有个观点，埃里克和我聊过很多次，我也在蒂姆的播客里提过——我觉得父母最大的一个误区，就是告诉孩子：下雨不好、下雪不好、天气差就不能出门，这其实是在教孩子把控制感放在外界。

So like I have this this thing which, you know, Eric and I have talked a lot about and I talked about it with my buddy Tim on his podcast around like I think one of the biggest parenting mistakes people make is that they teach kids to have an external locus of control by telling them like rain is bad, snow is bad, the weather sucks so we can't go out.

结果孩子就学会了看天气判断心情：下雨就觉得糟透了。

And then kids are looking at the world and they're thinking, if it's raining, you know, it sucks.

天晴了才觉得好，完全被外界左右，这种思维其实特别限制人。

If it's sunny, it's good, and therefore they have an external locus of control, and think it's crippling.

对吧？

Right?

其实成年人也经常这样。

And people do this as adults.

我觉得父母这么做往往是无意识的，当然你也提出过不同看法，比如冲浪的人在撒哈拉遇到下雨刮风，条件变差没法冲浪，确实也有道理，这一点我同意。

I I think this is like just sort of something that parents do blindly without, and of course, you've pushed back, and as surfers often like in in The Sahara when it's raining, it's windy, and it messes up conditions, can't do what you love, so that's another side of it, which I agree with.

埃里克和我经常来回讨论这个话题，挺有意思的。

Eric and I have had some fun bouncing this one back and forth.

早上醒来就知道，今天本来指望做的事没法实现了。

Waking up and you just know that what you were hoping to do all day long is not gonna happen.

没错。

Right.

这确实会让我心情有点受影响。

That does tend to affect my mood a little bit.

但乔什觉得这根本不该影响心情。

And Josh doesn't think it should.

没错。

Right.

这可是我们俩经常斗嘴的一个有趣话题。

This is like a fun theme of banter between the two of us.

但我认为，经历过痛苦之后还能继续前行，这其实是个很有趣的原则。

But like I think that, living on the other side of pain is an interesting principle.

对吧？

Right?

像你这样的人，每天都逼着自己拼命往前冲。

People who are Like someone like yourself, you push yourself so hard every day.

你最出彩的地方，往往就在那片阻力之后。

And so much of where you shine is on the other side.

你真正热爱的东西，也都藏在不适的另一边，而大多数人一碰到就退缩了。

So much of what you love is on the other side of the discomfort, which most people bounce off of.

如果想想训练的过程，真正的成长其实发生在对抗的时刻，在那个拉伸的临界点上。

So if you think about the training process, the growth really comes at the point of resistance, at that stretch point.

但大多数人一接近这种状态、这种阻力点，就会选择逃避。

But most people, when they approach that state, that resistant point, they go either way.

所以你可以训练自己，去爱上阻力背后的那片天地。

So you can train yourself to love the other side of that resistance.

对吧？

Right?

比如，你就可以这样去训练自己。

And so you can train it for example.

所以，假设我想训练自己适应痛苦之后的生活，因为我希望学会尽可能多地停留在那个拉伸状态，甚至超越它——真正的成长就发生在那儿。

So let's say I wanna train at the theme of living on the other side of pain because I wanna teach myself to to spend as much time as possible at that place of stretch or past stretch where growth really happens.

比如，你可以尝试冲冰水澡。

So then you can, for example, take freezing cold showers.

对吧？

Right?

你还可以通过冥想式的呼吸练习，把寒冷从一种负面感受，慢慢转变为中性，甚至变成一种享受。

And you can you can learn how to, through meditative breath work, turn the cold into some from something negative into something neutral into something pleasurable.

对吧？

Right?

你可以在性生活中克制高潮。

You can withhold orgasm during sex.

对吧？

Right?

这就像达到一个临界点——无论男女，身体都渴望释放紧张，但你却能保持住这种张力。

This is it's like reaching the point of where you're where you're male or female, you're desiring to release the tension, but then you can maintain that tension.

你还能学会在那种心理抗拒的时刻找到乐趣。

And you can learn to find pleasure in that point of mental resistance.

对吧？

Right?

冷暴露、热暴露都可以。

Can cold exposure, hot exposure.

我之前去潜水捕鱼的时候，把一颗牙撞掉了。

In my case, I just had a tooth I knocked out spearfishing.

后来得做牙科治疗，得在牙上打洞、装东西。

I had to have a dental, like a thing put in, drilled into my teeth.

我全程没打麻药。

Did it without anesthesia.

这么做是为了什么？

Working on Why?

因为我一直在练习这个主题——无论是心理上还是身体上，都要活在疼痛的另一侧。

Because I'm always working on this theme of mentally or physically living on the other side of pain.

方法多得是。

There's hundreds of ways.

不管是举铁训练，还是有氧运动，都行。

If you're doing resistance work with weights, if you're doing cardiovascular work.

学会去享受身体发出抗拒信号的那一刻。

Learning how to love that place where your body is saying resistance.

你可以单纯在心里这么想，也可以不加思索地去做，甚至可以通过想象，不断训练自己去爱上那种被逼到极限的感觉。

So you can just do that in the abstract or you can do it without thinking about it, or you can do it visualizing the theme of training yourself to love that place where you're challenged really, really hard.

只要你这么做，慢慢地，那种感觉就会变成一种享受。

And if you do that, then what's going to start happening is that that place is going to become one of pleasure.

拉伸时的不适感，也能变成一种愉悦。

The stretch points can be one of pleasure.

你提到了安德斯·埃里克森。

So you brought up Anders Ericsson.

我觉得他的研究真的特别重要。

I think his work is so incredibly important.

我特别喜欢他的研究。

I love his work.

我真想好好聊聊这个话题。

I'd love to talk about it.

刻意练习对我来说就是一种生活方式。

Deliberate practice is just a way of life for me.

要说我跟埃里克森有什么不同，大概就是我对刻意练习的态度——我真的很享受它。

Where I think I disagree with Ericsson, if there's anywhere, is it's around, loving deliberate practice.

他说过，他采访的大多数人——我觉得他说的是所有人——其实都不喜欢刻意练习。

I mean, he's made the argument that, you know, he's observed that that most of the people that he's interviewed, I think he said all, they don't they don't love the deliberate practice.

他们觉得这事儿挺难受的，但明白这是变得优秀必经的过程。

They dislike it, but they understand it's part of the growth of being great.

我多年来一直践行这个理念：在痛苦的另一边生活，学会把那种不适、那种心理上的抗拒感，尤其是突破极限时的挣扎，转变成我渴望、热爱、甚至享受的东西。

I've trained for many, many years at this principle of living on the other side of pain, learning to turn what feels uncomfortable or feels that learning to turn that place of mental resistance at the stretch point into something that I crave, that I love, that I enjoy.

说到底，我觉得这正是我如此热爱刻意练习的原因。

And ultimately, I think that's a big part of why I love deliberate practice.

我喜欢训练。

I love training.

我喜欢处在那种突破边缘的状态。

I love living at that stretch point.

所以我刻意训练自己在痛苦的另一面生活，把这种信念深深烙进骨子里。

And so I've trained at specific manifestations of living on the other side of pain to burn that theme into me.

现在，这个信念已经成为我身份的一部分，所以那天当那个运动鞋品牌的人来找我时，我就想，这不正是我热爱的东西吗？

And now that theme is a big part of who I am, which is why that day where that sneaker north came in and I was like, that's kind of what I love, right?

被逼到极限，然后在那个状态下继续运作。

Being pushed to that breaking point and operating there.

我这一生都在训练这种能力。

I've trained at that my whole life.

从跟那些会朝我脸上吐烟圈的棋手对弈，到在嘈杂的环境中钻研棋艺，再到练武术时被人故意干扰，我都经历过。

I've trained at it from playing against chess players who would blow smoke on my face and studying chess places where there were loud noise or in martial arts for years I was thrown off by it.

后来我开始专门找最不讲规矩的对手训练——那些专盯眼睛、脖子、裆部、膝盖的家伙，因为只有这样，你才能学会不被这些干扰打乱节奏，反而享受它们。

And then I started training at fighting the most dirty opponents I could find, guys who aimed at my eyes or my neck or my groin or my knees, guys who are dirty players because then you train at not being thrown off by those conditions, but loving them.

这些其实都是同一个主题的不同表现，我称之为在痛苦这一侧生活。

And and these are all manifestations of the same theme, which I would call living on this side of pain.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就是一个例子，通过练习具体的表现来内化核心主题，之后就会有成千上万种我当初根本想不到的场景出现，比如你提到的那次地震——我当年在印度参加世界象棋锦标赛时就遇到过。

And so that's one example of of working on manifestations of something to internalize the themes and that then thousands of examples I would never have thought of when they pop up like that earthquake, right, that you mentioned when I was playing chess in India in a world championship.

那种情况一发生，对我来说就特别自然。

When that happens, it's just natural to me.

这正是我热爱的，对吧？

That's what I love, right?

所以对我来说，谈到刻意练习或训练，我想到的就是找到一种方式，通过专注少数关键点，来内化无数种可能的情况，对吧？

So for me, when I think about deliberate practice or training, I think about mapping things in a way that allows me to train at the few to internalize the many, Right?

你最初问的是，我如何看待表征。

And so your initial question was around whether I would How you see representations.

我是怎么看待表征在决策和技术内容中的作用的。

How I see representations relative to decision making versus technical material.

没错。

Right.

对我个人来说，我并不太区分它们，因为我从主题上把它们联系起来。

And for me personally, I don't so much see them differently because I connect them thematically.

所以我关注它们之间的关联点，围绕这些点训练，同时在脑海中模拟这些联系。

And so I would look at where they were connected and I would train at that and I'd visualize the connections.

我发展出一个叫‘火中行走’的主题，你知道吧？

I have this theme that I've developed called fire walking, right?

对。

Yep.

我多年来一直训练视觉化能力，最近几年还大量使用生物反馈技术，通过强烈的视觉想象来调节自己的生理状态。

Which is I've trained at visualization for a lot of years and I've done a lot of work with in recent years with biofeedback to be able to put myself into different physiological states through intense visualization.

这其中很重要的一点，是学会用体验自己经历时的那种生理强度，去内化他人的经验。

And a big part of that is learning how to internalize the lessons from other people's experiences with the same physiological intensity as I can learn from my own.

比如在巴西柔术里，你看到别人被锁了手臂，你就会立刻感受到自己手臂被锁住的那种感觉。

So in Brazilian jujitsu, if you would look at someone get armbarred, you're gonna notice you got arm barred.

如果你在世界锦标赛上被锁了手臂，你的胳膊可能被扯断，肩膀和肘关节咔咔作响，这可是你人生中最关键的时刻，你绝对不会再把手臂伸过头了。

If you get arm barred in the world championship, your arm is being ripped off, your shoulders popping, your elbows popping in the most important moment of your life, and you're not gonna overextend your arm again.

但如果你能学会观察别人的动作失误，想象自己身处那个情境，感受他们当时的身体状态，那你就能从成千上万次你没亲身经历过的经验中，学到比你自己亲身经历更深的东西。

But if you can learn to observe other people's technical errors and visualize yourself in that position and experience the physiological state that they're in when they have it, then you can learn from thousands of experiences that you haven't had as deeply as you can learn from your own.

这种‘火行’的过程，其实和我连接技术与决策思维模型的方式是一样的——就像你提到的，通过理解它们在主题上的关联，想象这些联系，让自己在想象中进入每种情境对应的身体状态，然后深深烙印下来。

And that fire walking process is connected to how I would connect technical and decision making mental models, for example, as you're bringing up, through understanding where they're thematically connected, visualize the connections, internalize put myself into the physiological state that's appropriate for each one in the visualization and then burn it in.

所以，我平时特别注重建立连接，我觉得我最大的优势，就是擅长找关联。

So so, like, I I work on connect like, I think if I have any core strength, it is connections.

别人看到的是割裂的东西，我看到的是它们之间的联系。

It's understanding where things are connected that other people see them as being separated.

所以我的方法，核心就是把它们连起来。

And so so my approach is the essence of my approach is to connect them.

你问这个问题的背景是，我在教冲浪和桨板运动时，有些技巧其实特别容易教。

Where that question comes from is that there are certain things in what I coach from surfing, paddle surfing, that are these skills that are pretty easy to coach.

我可以把人放进泳池，直接教正确的划水动作，这很直接，练起来也容易。

I can put someone in a pool and I can teach correct paddle technique and that's pretty easy and you can go and you can drill on that.

但要学会读浪，就得靠时间积累，多看多体验，慢慢建立起自己的经验库。

But the reps needed to learn to read waves, It's just about time and seeing it and building that database.

我觉得对网球选手来说也是一样，能根据球拍击球的那一刻感觉，预判球的走向和该怎样回击。

I would assume it's the same thing for a tennis player being able to know where how When the ball hits a racket a certain way, where it's going and what the proper return is.

我想问的是，也许虚拟现实是个办法——到目前为止，这是我想到的唯一可能的解决方案：怎么才能在真实情境中快速积累这些经验？难道非得打五年网球，每天练一整天才行吗？

And question I guess is, and maybe virtual reality is the way, that's the only thing that I've been able to come up with so far that might be the solution for this is how do you get those reps in situ Is there a faster way to get those reps than having to play tennis all day long for five years?

我觉得核心原则是简化复杂度。

I think that the principle is reduced complexity.

对，没错。

Okay.

说实话，过去这十四个月我们一起训练，我一点都没想改，这简直是最棒的经历。

I think that, like, for example, if I were to I mean, honestly, I wouldn't change anything about this last, like, fourteen months we've been training together because it's been the most awesome thing.

我这辈子都没这么开心过。

I've had the time of my life.

我觉得自己的进步过程特别有意思，简直乐在其中。

I think my learning curve has been, you know, so much fun.

我不确定进步是不是特别快，但我感觉我现在走的路特别对，我全身心投入了。不过，如果现在以我现有的认知，你我联手来想想——假如你不再考虑那些人去玩大板、占着浪点对这项运动不利的问题，

And I'm not sure if it's been steep or not, but I feel like I'm on a great path and I'm and and I'm all in and I'm but like if I were to think now with what I know and if you and I were to like put our minds together on the if we were thinking about you if if you were not taking into consideration the fact that you don't want guys out there surfing big boards and lineups because it's bad for the sport.

对吧？

Right?

那又是另一个话题了。

And that's a whole other conversation.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们先把这个问题搁一边，单看怎么最大化成长曲线，

So if we disentangle that dynamic from from just maximizing the growth curve.

那我们就来思考一下：在简化情境下，专注核心技能训练的问题。

Then we think about the question of focusing on core technical material in situations of reduced complexity.

我觉得，可以把平水区的竞速训练，和你跟儿子达莫一起做的那些练习结合起来，

What I would say is that flat combining flat water bottom racing with, for example, going out and what you've done with Damo, your son.

对吧？

Right?

我见过最棒的孩子。

Who's the most awesome kid I've ever met.

我特别喜欢Damo。

I love Damo.

他真是个充满活力的孩子。

He's such an awesome spirit.

他经常跟我们一起冲浪。

He's been surfing with us a lot.

顺便说一句，是的。

Side note Yeah.

前几天，我跟他讲了赤脚走火的原理，是的。

The other day, I explained the fire walking principle to him Yeah.

大概是几个月前。

A couple months ago.

有一天，我正在冥想，就问他：你想跟我一起冥想吗？

And so so one day I told him that he should while I was meditating, I was like, you want to meditate with me?

他说好啊，我来打坐。

He's like, yeah, I'll meditate.

对。

Yeah.

结果他躺在那儿十五分钟，我就问他，Damon，感觉怎么样？

And so he laid there for fifteen minutes and, you know, I was like, so how'd that go, Damon?

你享受这个过程吗？

You know, did you enjoy it?

他说，嗯，我刚才在火上冲浪，像Fredo那样。

He's like, yeah, I was fire walking Fredo's turns.

太棒了。

Love it.

Fredo是个住在这儿的顶尖冲浪手，我当时就觉得，一个八岁的小孩居然能说出‘火上冲浪’这种话，真有意思。

Fredo's an incredible surfer who lives here, so I thought that was pretty, like, little eight year old The fire problem

现在Eric和Damo之间有个特别有趣的事，Damo最喜欢做的事就是抢Eric的浪。

that Eric has with Damo now is that his favorite thing to do in life is dropping on every one of Eric's waves.

每次埃里克一划水站起来，达莫就把他叫开，自己抢先冲浪。

Every time Eric pops up as our paddling, Damo calls him off and drops it on the wave.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

明白了，爸爸。

Got it, dad.

明白了，爸爸。

Got it, dad.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我想说的是，你带达莫去冲浪前，先带他去海里玩浮潜，花了很长时间让他观察海浪。

So I I was gonna say is what you've done with Daymo is that you've you took him out body surfing, you took him out, watched waves for a long time before he started surfing.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

所以我觉得，不踩板子，也不用保持平衡，就只是盯着海浪看两三个小时。

So I would think that going out not on a board, not trying to balance, but just watching waves for two, three hours.

对。

Right.

是吧？

Right?

比如连续四天，每天两三个小时，专门观察浪峰，给人指出接下来会发生什么，然后让他们亲眼看着它发生。

Like two, three hours a day for four days straight and defining what the peaks are, showing someone what's going to happen and then have them watch it happen.

但他们没踩在冲浪板上，我们也不是在教人冲浪。

But they're not standing on a board, we're not trying to surf.

所以要把每个环节拆开，一个个来练。

So deconstructing the different component parts, doing them one at a time.

底浪滑行是一回事，读浪是另一回事，脚的位置又是一回事，站到板子尾部又是另一回事。

Bottom racing is one thing, reading waves is another thing, foot placement is another, getting to the back of your board is another.

对吧？

Right?

一开始用不太小的板子，等熟练了再换到合适的板子上。

On boards that aren't too too small initially, and then putting them together on the right on the right board.

如果我们目标是让进步速度最大化，我觉得这方法会特别有效。

I think that that would be really interesting if we're trying just to maximize the growth curve.

没错。

Sure.

关于他的学习过程，我更在意的是他在海里的安全，能不能自在地待在水里，而不是会不会冲浪。

And for his learning curve, I was much more concerned about ocean safety, just being comfortable in the water than surfing.

我们才刚开始冲浪一个半月左右。

We just started surfing a couple a month and a half ago.

现在他已经能自己冲浪了。

He's now surfing.

以前我的目标很简单，就是希望他能在水里稳得住。

Before, the whole goal was just I wanted him to be solid in the water.

所以当时情况不一样。

So it was different.

你们进来的时候，已经有丰富的水上经验和技能了。

And you guys came in and with, you know, a lot of water a lot of water time and skills.

但他现在对水性的把握真是特别到位。

But let's He reads the water so beautifully now.

是的。

Yeah.

现在确实如此。

He does now.

挺厉害的。

It's pretty cool.

对。

Yeah.

这其实就和这个原则有关，真是个不错的理念。

And that was had to do with this actually, that that's a that's a cool principle.

我不确定这原理能不能用在别的事情上，但当时我是从板尾推着他，还穿着脚蹼。

I don't know how it applies to other things but I was pushing him in from the tail of the board and I was in swim fins.

所以我先游到后面，等在那里，等浪来了，就从板尾把他推上去。

So I would swim out the back and I would sit there basically until a wave would come and then when a wave would come to us, would push him in from the tail of the board.

对。

Yeah.

那时候我们在加州，跟我的朋友科林·麦克菲利普斯一起，他是三届世界长板冠军，全球最顶尖的冲浪手之一。

And we were in California hanging out with my buddy Colin McPhillips, who is a three time world longboard champion, one of the best surfers on the planet.

这人简直太厉害了。

The guy is absolutely phenomenal.

他有四个孩子，个个都是冲浪高手。

And he's got four kids who are all incredible surfers.

有一天我带着达姆出去，科林也一起来了。

And so I was out with Dame one day and Colin, was out with us.

科林开始帮达姆找浪，但他用的方法跟我不一样。

And Colin started putting Damon on waves, but he started he's doing it differently.

他一边告诉达米安该往哪儿去，一边在后面划水，让达米安自己去追浪，等浪来了，他就从后面一把抓住达米安的屁股，带着他一起滑进浪里。

He was telling Damien where to go and then would paddle behind him, have Damien paddle for the wave, paddle behind him, and then grab him from Colin would catch the wave behind him, grab him from the butt, and then guide him in.

我当时就在旁边看着。

And so I watched this.

心想，这招太绝了。

Was like, oh, this is this is genius.

因为现在达米安自己完全在做所有动作，只是得到一点点辅助——毕竟他的手臂还不够有力，没法自己划进浪里。

Because now Damien is doing everything and is just getting a little assistant because his arms weren't strong enough to paddle into the waves.

所以达米安现在看浪的本事，完全是靠科林教的这种方法练出来的：让他自己动手，只在旁边帮一把，而不是在学冲浪时过度保护他，这正是我们教水上技能的方式。

So that's how the way he reads waves now is 100% because of this method that Colin showed us, which is having him do all the work, helping him, not babying him in the surfing learning process, which is how we approach the water skills.

水上技能这块，他必须完全靠自己。

The water skills, he had to do it all by himself.

我从不帮他，也不牵着他的手。

I wouldn't help him, I wouldn't hold his hands.

他得自己去应对一波又一波的海浪。

He had to deal with the sets.

我得一直陪在他身边，跟他待在一起，这样他才不会慌乱。

He had to I'd be right there with him, hanging out with him so that he couldn't he wouldn't freak out.

我们唯一的规矩是：在海里不准哭，因为一哭就会喘不过气，影响呼吸节奏；你可以在沙滩上随便哭，但在海里绝对不行。

Our only rule is you can't cry in the ocean because you can't hyperventilate, it's bad for your breath work, you can go on the beach, you can cry all you want, but you're not allowed to cry in the ocean.

是的。

Yeah.

因为有一次他真的慌了，整个情况都乱了。

Because it happened one time, he freaked out and the whole thing.

但科林的这种做法很有效——让他自己完成所有动作，后来他就能自己找准位置，我根本不用再推他了。

But this, the way this approach that Colin had of basically having him do everything and then the transition was he would just be in the right spot and I just wouldn't have to push him anymore.

对他来说，情况完全一样。

It was the exact same thing for him.

没错。

Right.

这真的很棒。

Which was really neat.

有意思的是，这让我想到一个主题——找到属于自己的路。

What's interesting, you know, what that makes me think of is this this theme of like finding your own way.

对吧？

Right?

我经常看到人们犯的一个常见错误，不管是孩子还是成年人，在学习过程中总想照着别人的样子去做。

I mean, one of the most common mistakes that I see people make, whether you're talking with kids or adults in the learning curve is trying to do it like someone else does it.

不管是你爸、你的偶像、迈克尔·乔丹，还是泰格·伍兹，不管是什么运动。

Whether it's your dad or your your hero or Michael Jordan, right, or Tiger Woods or whatever the sport is.

确实有人站在顶尖位置，你可以模仿他们，但那和去探索属于你自己的艺术关系，完全是两回事。

There are people who are who are at the top, and you can try to do it like somebody else, but then it's it's very different from trying to figure out the relationship to the art, which is completely your own.

举个例子，Damo 现在跟你互动时，做了好多挺有意思的事。

And what's been I mean, for example, I Damo has all these funny things he's doing relative to you right now.

对吧？

Right?

他不是那种直接跟你硬碰硬的人，但他会做一些特别的事，比如观察你，然后故意在你的浪上做点动作，既是在考验自己，也在试探你，其实他是在玩自己的游戏。

Which is he's like I I I'm not gonna out him, but he's, like he's doing certain things relative to watching you and trying to drop it on your waves in a way that he's testing himself, testing you, and he's kind of playing his own games.

但他是在找到属于自己的打球方式，这真的很棒。

But he's finding his own way of playing these games, and it's really cool.

我觉得他正在建立自己与海浪之间的独特关系。

And I feel like he's finding his own relationship to to the waves.

比如，当我告诉你该怎么做时，他并不会立刻照做。

Like, when I watch you tell him something, he doesn't just go do it.

他会转过身去，自己去寻找答案。

He goes and turns around and looks looks for it.

等他真正理解了，才会行动。

When he understands it, then he goes.

这特别有意思，因为他是在听你说话，然后自己消化。

It's very interesting because he's he's creating he's listening to you.

他非常尊重你。

He respects you so much.

我的意思是，你都能强烈地感受到这一点。

I mean, I can you could feel it so powerfully.

但他也在通过这种方式，建立起自己与海水的关系。

But he's also finding his own relationship to the water with that.

这种感觉特别健康。

It feels so healthy.

一起在汹涌的海浪中冲浪，对我们的关系来说简直太棒了，毕竟那时候你们必须互相依赖。

It's been incredible for a relationship to surf in heavy conditions together where you kind of have to rely on each other.

这彻底改变了我们的关系。

It's changed our relationship.

说真的，没错。

And actually alright.

那我们来聊聊育儿吧。

So let's segue into parenting.

几个月前，我联系过你，因为那会儿我们正在考虑今年要不要在家教育孩子。

And a few months ago, I pinged you because we were thinking about homeschooling this year.

在和你还有其他一些比我聪明得多的人相处了一年之后。

And after spending a year hanging out with you and some of these other people that are, like, way smarter than I am.

我们住在丛林里，这一点也让我在思考。

And thinking about we live in the jungle.

这儿有一所不错的学校。

There's a great school here.

但我有点拿不准，我两个孩子，一个八岁、一个十岁，将来哪些技能才是真正重要的——毕竟机器以后能做的事越来越多。

But I'm a little unsure about what skill sets our children, I have an eight and a 10 year old, what's going to be relevant for them when you factor in what machines are going to be able to do.

我最后想明白的是，得让他们有很强的自主性，能主动找到该做什么，并且相信自己做得到。

And where I landed on this was that a high sense of self agency, the ability to find what they need to do and know that they can do it.

另外，还得在某件事上达到相当高的水平，我不说精通吧，但至少能沉下心来，把一件事做到很好。

And also achieving some level of, I don't want to say mastery, but a high level at at something where they can take time.

所以我们决定在家上学，计划每天用四个小时完成基础课程，剩下的时间，每个孩子每天专注发展一项自己的技能。

So we decided to homeschool and the idea was do our curriculum in about four hours a day and then each of our kids could spend each time each day focused on a skill.

我们的想法是，希望他们能真正理解这种刻意练习的模式——就像你之前说的，从小树立高标准有多重要。

And the idea was that hopefully, they'll learn this whole deliberate practice model, this as you said, I believe it was you said that they're gonna set high standard of quality at a young age and how important that is.

你能说说，为什么从小培养这种意识这么关键？它对你自己产生了什么影响？

Can you talk to the importance of learning that at a young age and what that did for you?

你小时候下棋的时候就做到了这一点，这很可能为你现在的人生道路打下了基础。

Because you absolutely did that with chess at a young age and how that kind of sets you on the path that you're on maybe.

我觉得让孩子心中有个品质的标杆，真是太棒了。

I think it's incredible for kids to have a beacon of quality in them, right?

如果你从小就开始专注地训练某项技能，自然就会有大量的练习机会。

And of course, then you get many reps of it if you're training at something intensely from, you know, when you're a young kid.

我觉得你现在对孩子们的做法特别美好。

Mean, I think what you're doing with your kids right now is really beautiful.

从他们的精神状态来看，真的非常健康。

My read of their energy is that it's super healthy.

他们看起来充满活力，特别有干劲。

They feel so alive and so inspired.

我看达莫在水上的样子，觉得他从中学到了很多关于生活的道理。

When I watch Damo on the water, it feels to me like he's learning so much about life.

我坚信，深入钻研一件事，真正触碰到卓越，是非常重要的。

And there is something, I really believe in going deep into something, touching quality.

如果你在学武术技巧，大多数人会反复练右手法、左手法、右手法、左手法。

And then if you were trying to learn a technique in the martial arts, most people will drill it right handed, left handed, right handed, left handed.

我则会先在一个方向上练到极致，再把这种水准迁移到另一侧。

I would drill it very deeply on one side, then translate that level of quality over.

别急着学五个技巧。

Try and learn five techniques.

先把一个技巧练透，之后你就能把这种深度应用到其他技巧上。

Learn one very deeply, and then you can translate that level of depth over to the other to the others.

对吧？

Right?

你看传统中国武术的教学方式，比如太极拳、功夫这类有套路的功夫。

If you look at the way, like, traditional Chinese martial arts is taught in, for example, like, something where there's form, whether it's kung fu or, like, Tai Chi Chuan or whatever.

大多数传统武术老师都会要求学员先把整套外在动作练熟，可能要花几个月甚至几年，才开始教内在的原理。

Most, traditional Chinese martial arts teachers will have make someone learn the whole external form, which could take months or even years before they'll work on any of the internal the internal principles.

我则会先和学员一起专攻一个动作，再让他们深入体会这个动作背后的内在原则和身体机制。

I would work on one technique with somebody and then have them work on all the internal principles and the body mechanics of that of doing that one thing with quality.

然后用同样的深度去掌握其他所有东西。

And then learn everything else with that level of quality.

我觉得这种做法其实是从深度出发，再扩展到广度。

And I think that it's it's it's it's really an approach that comes from depth before breadth.

对吧？

Right?

几乎所有人都反着来。

Almost everyone goes the other way.

先追求广度。

Breath first.

先广度，对吧？

First, right?

先拓宽范围，再深入。

Go wide and then deep.

也许吧。

Maybe.

或者干脆只追求广度，再也不深入，而这其实正是我们当今文化所趋向的方向。

Or just go wide and never go deep, which is actually what our cultures tend to be moving toward.

每个人都很分心。

It's just everyone's distracted.

同时做上好几件事。

They're doing a million things at once.

从不认真看任何一件事。

They're not looking at anything deeply.

对吧？

Right?

但反过来，如果你能把一件事做得特别深入，就会培养出对品质的敏锐感知。

So on the other hand, if you do something with incredible depth, you develop this feel for quality.

就像我们一开始聊的那种感觉——对自我表达的感知，对忠于自我的感知，对热爱自己所做之事并以自己喜欢的方式去做的感知，这正是我人生中所信奉的核心。

And similar to the feel we were talking about in the beginning here, that feel for self expression or that feel for being true to yourself or that feel for loving what you're doing and doing it in a way that you love, which is the essence of what I believe in in life.

我看你和达莫在一起的时候，就是在这么做。

And I I see you doing that with Damo.

说到杰克和查理，我的两个儿子，我爱他们胜过我曾经想象过的任何爱，我对他们的投入程度简直无法再加深了。

And I I mean, when I think about Jack and Charlie, my boys, I mean, I I love those boys more than I ever dreamed of love, and I'm as devoted to them as I as like, I can't even imagine being more devoted.

这就是我希望他们能拥有的。

And I that's what I want for them.

我希望他们能去探索品质与爱，真正感受到深入从事艺术的美妙，尤其是当他们全心投入的时候。

I wanna explore quality and love and have them just feel how beautiful it is to do arts deeply in a way that they are so passionate about.

这种热情是可以培养的吗，还是它本来就存在？

Can you cultivate that passion or is it just there?

我觉得是可以培养的。

I think you can cultivate it.

我坚信，这种热情完全是可以培养出来的。

I think that you can cultivate it absolutely.

我觉得关键在于，要了解自己作为一个学习者究竟是什么样的。

I think a big part of that is is learning who you are as a learner.

对吧？

Right?

不只是埋头往前冲，也不只是听别人的，更不是硬把自己塞进学校或体制的框架里。

Not just racing forward, not just listening to others, not just fitting into the mold of a school or a system.

我觉得作为父母，最重要的一件事就是认真听孩子说话，教他们倾听自己的内心，理解他们思维里那些独特的习惯，然后以包容的方式去学习——不是去压抑这些特点，而是去接纳、去珍视它们，而不是强迫他们照别人的方式去做。

I think one of the most important things that we can do as parents is listen to our children and teach them to listen to themselves, teach them to understand the little idiosyncrasies of their minds, and then learn in a way which which embraces those idiosyncrasies, loves them as opposed to tries to box them away and do it the way someone else did it.

说真的，我在育儿中学到最重要的一点，就是必须全身心地、细致入微地去倾听我的孩子们。

I mean, that's the the single most important thing that I've learned about parenting is the importance of listening with all of my pores wide open to my my babies.

去了解他们，也帮助他们去了解自己。

Learning about them and teaching helping them learn about them.

看着杰克自己摸索出各种道理，真的特别棒。

It's it's awesome to watch Jack figure things out.

他的脑子一刻不停，拿着钥匙到处走，琢磨能打开什么、能弄明白什么。

His mind's just spinning and with the keys, like, walks around seeing what he can figure out, what

他能打开什么、能发现什么，这一切都美得让人感动。

he can open up, what he can it's it's it's beautiful.

他必须把每件事都理清楚。

He has to map everything.

他一到什么地方，就把整个地方都摸得一清二楚。

When he goes somewhere, he just maps the whole place.

这跟我完全不一样。

It's just not like me at all.

杰克和我其实有很多地方很不一样，但当他的爸爸真的特别棒，我太爱这孩子了。

Jack and I are really I mean, we're really different in a lot of ways and it's such an awesome thing being his dad, I love that boy so much.

我正在慢慢了解他。

And I'm I'm learning about him.

查理一专注起来就全神贯注。

And Charlie just locks on.

是的。

Yeah.

查理能迅速进入状态。

Charlie taps in.

我觉得查理在很多方面其实更像我。

I think Charlie is kind of, in a lot of ways, more similar to me.

查理才七个月大，但他一专注起来，就完全沉浸其中。

Charlie's just seven months old, but he has this way of just zoning in on something and just being on it.

这就是

That's what

泰丝说的。

Tess says.

在身体感知上也是这样。

Kinesthetically as well.

是的。

Yeah.

不过回到你刚才的问题，我相信我们确实可以帮助孩子学会培养爱的能力。

I but but going back to your your question, I do believe that that we can help children learn how to cultivate the love.

我觉得我们自己也可以做到。

I think we can do it in ourselves.

我觉得，就像学习过程中一样，我们其实可以训练自己去面对并克服自身的不足。

I think that similar to how, like, in the learning process, we can, like, we can train ourselves to take on our weaknesses or not.

对吧？

Right?

当我们做自己喜欢的事，而且是以自己喜欢的方式去做时，总会发生一些特别美好的事情。

There's something beautiful that happens when we're doing something that we love, And there's and we're doing something in a way that we love.

那种感觉，内心特别一致。

Like, it feels internally aligned.

对吧？

Right?

我可以举个类似的例子，比如大多数人，一旦自己的弱点暴露出来，就会躲得远远的。

And, like, I can think of the the parallel that I'm making is, for example, if you if you think about most people when their weakness is exposed, they go the other way.

对吧？

Right?

他们根本不想直面它。

They don't want to take it on.

我小时候，大概七岁左右，就是全国同龄人里下棋最厉害的。

For me at a young age, I was the top chess player in the country from my age from when I was about seven.

所以其他孩子都盯着我，想把我拉下来。

And so that meant that all the other kids were kind of gunning for me.

一旦我暴露了弱点，犯了错，周围全是大师、国际大师和特级大师在指导年轻棋手。

And so when a weakness was exposed, when I would make a mistake, you had masters and international masters and grandmasters coaching young kids.

特级大师们会仔细研究一个七岁孩子的对局，弱点一眼就能看出来。

So grandmasters studying the games of a seven year old, they see the weaknesses very clearly.

对吧？

Right?

所以我一露出破绽，所有人都会抓住机会猛攻，因为他们都想着超越我。直到我自己主动去面对、去改进，情况才改变。

And so if I revealed the weakness, everyone would take advantage of it because they're all gunning for me because I was the top player until I took it on myself, until I improved it.

我小时候的经历让我这两个性格特质被淬炼得特别深刻：如果我不去正视弱点，别人就会一直利用它。

And so what happened for me at a young age is that these two parts of my personality, think became somewhat burned in by fire, which is that if I didn't take on a weakness, people kept on exploiting it.

如果我作为棋手不够诚实、不够全力以赴，我的成绩马上就会下滑。

And if I wasn't true to myself as a competitor, my results would flag.

把这两点结合起来，我就觉得，不直面弱点这件事，根本不在我的思维框架里。

And so you put those two things together, and I think it's sort of outside of my conceptual scheme to not take on weaknesses.

这就像一种呼吸的节奏。

It's just like a breath pattern.

如果我不按自己的方式来做，作为竞争者，你根本撑不下去——你不能硬套别人的模式。

And to not do it in a way that's true to me because as a competitor, you can't survive if trying to fit into someone else's mold.

所以我明白，外部环境是怎么配合着促成这一点的，我也一直在刻意练习。

So I think that like, I see how the external conditions cooperated with it and I trained at it.

现在这些特质已经深深融入了我的性格，有些连我自己都察觉不到，尽管我一直在努力去发现。

And I see that these two these things are kind of part of me now as an adult in ways sometimes that I don't even see, although I try really hard to see them.

正因如此，我才总想到孩子，想到所有人——当然，我们是可以培养的。

And that's why I think about it relative to kids in general, people in general, absolutely, we can we can train them.

这事儿是能练出来的。

We can work on it.

很多地方在于教会孩子学会内省，让人去做真正热爱的事，而不是为了迎合外界的期待。

And a lot of it a lot of it is teaching kids to to be introspective for people to, like, do what they love as opposed to doing things because of what they feel the world, you know, what the world expects of them.

在成长的过程中，这一点也适用于为人父母，这也是我提出这个问题的由来，但不仅限于父母。

In the growth process, and we can relate this to parenting, which is where the idea for this question came from and but to anyone too.

我一直努力帮人们找到在水里自如的感觉。

And this is something that I try to help people find their way in the water with.

就是要推动自己的成长边界，同时避免因为出状况或害怕而退步。

And that is pushing your growth edge, but then avoiding setbacks of, something going wrong and fear.

我对孩子在这方面一直特别谨慎。

And, you know, that's something that I've been very careful with my kids.

刚开始接触水的时候，我会特别慢，因为一旦出事——我见过太多次了，连我带过的学员也发生过。

And I, you know, going very slowly at the beginning of being exposed to the water because when something goes wrong and I've seen it happen, and I've seen it happen with people that I've coached too.

前段时间来了一个人，之前在水里有过不好的经历，我事先并不知道。

I mean, we had, someone recently who came down who had had some bad experiences in the water, and I didn't know this.

结果她第一天跟别人下水，一到水里就开始过度换气。

And, they were with someone else who was a better person and got out in the water the first day and basically started hyperventilating.

那周我们只好专门帮她克服对水的恐惧。

And so that week for us turned into just working past the fear of the water.

到最后，她居然游到了我们常去的礁石区，还成功冲了浪。

And at the end, she surfed the reef that we surf and caught waves out on the reef.

如果你见过她第一天的样子，再看看后来的变化，简直太惊人了。

If you would have seen her the first day, and then it was phenomenal.

那可能是我最难忘的一次指导时刻，但跟冲浪本身一点关系都没有。

It was probably my favorite coaching moment and it wasn't, had nothing to do with surfing.

是的。

Yeah.

在训练和育儿之间，你是怎么平衡这种既要推动进步、又要留意潜在情绪挫折的动态的？

How would you, how do you balance in your training and your parenting that dynamic of pushing where you need to push, but then also watching for those potential emotional setbacks?

你是指对自己，还是对别人，或者对你的孩子和你训练的人？

With myself or with with people or with with my kids or people I train?

我猜你对自己要求挺严格的。

I assume that you're pretty hard on yourself.

对。

Yeah.

那聊聊你训练和带教的人吧。

So talk to about people that you train, people that you work with,

或者孩子。

or kids.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，最重要的一点是，我已经训练自己去热爱风暴，以至于在与他人相处时，我必须格外留意这种倾向带来的偏见。

One of the most important things for me there is that I I've trained myself to love the storm so much that I have to be very careful to be aware of that bias in myself when I work with other people.

我们第一次出行时就遇到过这种情况。

And we had that situation happen on our first trip.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

We did.

是的。

Yeah.

那场面真是相当激烈。

That was that was intense.

其实，这倒是个挺有意思的话题，可以聊聊。

Actually, that would be something interesting to to kinda talk about.

对。

Yeah.

我们去冲浪了。

We went surfing.

从我的角度看，那是我们第一次合作。

And from my standpoint, this was the first time that we had worked together.

是的。

Yeah.

你来之前好几年我就读过你的书了。

And I read your book years before you came down.

我一直听蒂姆·费里斯的播客。

I was a fan of Tim Ferriss' podcast.

蒂姆也参加了那次旅行。

Tim was on that trip.

所以那天是旅行的最后一天。

And so this was the last day of the trip.

我们那时候其实还在互相了解，但说实话，能和你们一起待着我就特别兴奋，真的特别兴奋。

And we were, I mean, we were getting to know each other, but I was still like just stoked to be hanging out with you guys, if I'm being honest, I was just stoked.

当时天气预报说会有大浪，风也刮得特别猛。

And so the surf, there's a forecasted big swell and the winds were blowing really hard.

我们原本想去的那个地方，根本没法冲浪。

So where we wanted to surf, we couldn't surf.

我敢肯定我们自己应付得了，但风实在太大了。

And I'm pretty sure we would have had no issues there, but the winds are blowing hard.

结果我们只能去一个浪很猛的海滩。

So we were relegated to surf this one beach that can be heavy.

我们到了之后，在沙滩上坐了大概十五分钟。

And we show up and we sat on the beach for about fifteen minutes.

我知道浪肯定很大，但一直没看到更大的浪群过来。

And I knew the surf was going be big but we didn't see any bigger sets.

你当时特别激动，一直催着去冲浪。

And you were just fired up like pushing to go surf.

现在回头想想，我根本不会让我们陷入这种状况。

And in retrospect, I wouldn't have even put us in that situation.

如果我当时看了浪况模型，了解你们的状态和经验水平，我根本不会开车去那个海滩。

We never would have driven up to the beach if I had seen the swell model and where you guys were and the learning process.

但因为你太兴奋了，我不想让你们失望。

But because of how excited you were, because I didn't want to let you guys down.

说真的，那部分因素在这件事里占了很大比重。

I mean, was like There was a big component of that in this.

没错。

Right.

我当时就是特别兴奋。

Was I was just stoked.

我只是希望你们离开的时候能意犹未尽。

I just wanted you guys to like leave fired up.

对。

Right.

结果我们开始划出去的时候，海平线开始出现细浪。

And what ended up happening was we started paddling out and the horizon started feathering.

当海平线出现细浪时，远处会有一道指示波。

When the horizon started feathering, there was a there's a indicator wave way out the back.

那道波只有在浪高达十英尺左右的时候才会破开。

And this wave, it only breaks when it's big, when it's like 10 foot faces.

我们划出去的时候，我决定用短板，因为我有点担心可能会遇到大浪群。

And as we're paddling out, as we're making the paddle, I decided to ride a shortboard because I was a little nervous that maybe we'd see some big sets.

我想着万一后面有人，我还能潜下去穿过去。

And I wanted to be able to duck dive in case there were guys out the back, I could get back out.

那天早上我选短板，纯粹是为了安全考虑。

That was my rationale to ride a shoreboard that morning just in case was my safety.

我很庆幸自己这么做了，因为确实值得。

And I'm glad I did it because Yeah.

我们真需要它。

We needed it.

但当我们往外划的时候，那个指示波开始破了，这意味着大概两分钟内大浪就要拍上岸了。

But as we're paddling out, the indicator starts breaking, which means you've got about two minutes before the set hits the beach.

我们把所有人都送到了外侧，海况瞬间从齐腰到齐胸的平静浪，变成了汹涌的十英尺大浪。

And so we got everyone out the back and it went from being waist to chest high benign conditions to solid 10 foot faces in heavy conditions.

我们有三条腿绳都断了。

And, we had three leashes break.

花了我们大概十五到二十分钟。

It took us about fifteen, twenty minutes.

幸好你也在，我知道你在水里特别从容。

And thank goodness you were there because I know how comfortable you are in the water.

你一点都没受影响。

It didn't faze you at all.

其实当时最混乱的时候，乔什还在试着冲浪，那场面还挺搞笑的。

Actually, the middle of the chaos, Josh was trying to catch waves, which was pretty funny there.

但我们总算把所有人都送上了岸，大家紧紧拥抱，那一刻真是特别，说真的，挺让人深思的。

But we got everybody to the beach and there was big hugs and, but it was such an interesting moment of excuse me, this.

我写过关于恐惧和风险的区别：有时候，真正有风险的时候你反而不觉得害怕，而有时候你明明很害怕，风险却并不存在，你得学会分辨并应对这种状况。

The difference I wrote about it, the difference in fear and risk, because sometimes fear is not present when there's real risk and risk isn't present when there's fear and you have to be able to understand and navigate that.

还有就是，要学会突破自己的界限。

And then also working outside of your bounds.

你事后怎么看待当时的情况？

What's your postmortem on that situation?

你知道吗？大卫·福斯特·华莱士几年前在肯yon学院做过一场特别棒的演讲。

You know, David Foster Wallace gave this great talk at Kenyon a ways back.

那是场毕业致辞，我觉得很多人都会喜欢听或读，名字叫《这是水》。

It's a it's a commencement address, I think people would love to listen to it or read it, it's called This Is Water.

他整个演讲都围绕一个主题展开：鱼根本意识不到自己生活在水里。

And he built the whole talk around this theme of around fish not being aware of what of water.

对吧？

Right?

因为那就是他们所处的环境。

Because that's just that's where they are.

所以他们根本察觉不到它。

So they don't they don't they're not aware of it.

我觉得我们大多数人活着的时候，都对自身的偏见和思维框架视而不见，那些无形中驱动着我们的东西，我们根本看不到。

And I think that we live our lives for the most part blind to our biases, our constructs, like our conceptual scheme or the things that are moving us, that are invisible to us.

就像我刚才提到的，关于我自己、关于以真实的方式做事、把犯错当成一种生活方式这些事。

And like the stuff that I was just talking about relative to myself, relative to doing things in a way that's true to me and taking on errors as a way of life.

我花了很多功夫去理解，这些观念其实从小就被潜移默化地植入了我，一直在暗中影响着我。

Like, that stuff that I've done work on myself to understand that these are things that were sort of programmed into me from a young age and are just operating.

它们在推动着我，而我对此心怀感激。

They're moving me, and I'm grateful that they're moving me.

但类似地，我也接受过大量的训练。

And but similar to that, like, I've done a lot of training.

我觉得这可能跟我的性格有关，但更重要的是，我在各种格斗技艺中长期训练，学会了拥抱风暴——比如下棋的时候，我记得有一场世界锦标赛，印度发生了大地震，但那次地震反而让我获得了顿悟；断骨的经历也让我在武术上达到了前所未有的高度，这些经历后来成了我日常训练的基础，让我不断练习如何让时间变慢。

I think it's in my personality, but I've also done a lot of training in my life as a competitor in these different arts that I've done at loving the storm because, like, for example, as a as a chess player, if you're in like, I remember that like, I mentioned that there was this big earthquake in India in a world championship that I was playing, and, like, the earthquake spurred me to insight, where broken limbs have spurred me to, like, the highest level things I've done in the martial arts, which then became baseline for me to, you know, work on time slowing down all the time.

对我来说，我在这方面下了极大的功夫，我就是特别享受这种风浪中的感觉。所以当有别人参与时，我得提醒自己注意这一点。

Like, for me, like I've trained at this so hard, and I just love the storm in my and so the thing I have to be aware of when there's other people involved is that.

对吧？

Right?

那群人都是朋友，但他们对水的感觉跟你我完全不同。虽然我最近没怎么冲浪，但我从小就在水里长大，每年都有好几个月泡在水里，自由潜水、叉鱼。

And so this was a group of buddies, not everyone had that same relationship to the water that you and I have, because I haven't been surfing for a long time, but I grew up as a kid, and I spent a lot of months of my life every every, every year of my life on the water, free diving, spearfishing.

我真的很爱水。

Like, I I love water.

我在水里很自在。

I'm comfortable in the water.

在那个场景里，我们可能把水中的那份安心当成了理所当然——我至少是这么想的。而且，当事情突然失控的时候，我反而觉得最痛快。

And in that scene, I I you can, you know, take the comfort I think maybe we took for granted the comfort or or I took for granted the sense of comfort in the water and also the fact that that when the shit hits the fan, I'm at my happiest in some ways.

一到那种时候，你的眼睛都会亮起来。

Your eyes light up when it happens.

所以我觉得，嗯，我当时真没觉得那场面有多危险，但后来出了些差错，才变得危险起来，最后整个事情一下子变得特别紧张。

And so I think that we we yeah, that was I mean, I didn't actually think the scene was dangerous but then some mistakes were made which made it dangerous and and then it got then it was intense.

是的

Yeah.

那场面确实很紧张。

And it was intense.

不过呢，我们把人聚齐了，一切就都顺利了。

But, you know, we also we got the guys in and it was Just fine.

没什么大问题。

It was okay.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得你其实也明白，这挺有意思的。

I mean, my I think that you I mean, it's interesting.

那我的复盘是什么呢？

So what's my postmortem?

我的复盘就是，最重要的一点，是要时刻保持方向感。

My postmortem is that one of one of the most important things, right, about is to have your compass on.