1. The Psychology of Imposter Syndrome - why do you feel like such a fraud??

这是由真人打造的‘我爱’播客。

This is an I heart podcast guaranteed human.

快乐至关重要，却也难以捉摸。现在，有一种全新而令人兴奋的方式，助你开启通往更快乐生活的旅程——《快乐101》，由我主持。如果你渴望灵感，想充分提升幸福感，就来收听这些真诚、鼓舞人心又动人的对话吧。免费下载“I Heart Radio”应用，搜索“快乐101”，立即收听。

Joy is essential and it's also elusive but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence Joy one zero one it's a new podcast hosted by me how to copy if you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats open your free I heart radio app search Joy one zero one and listen now.

《快乐101》由霍达科特皮主持，由CBS出品。

Joy one zero one with Hodakotpi is presented by CBS.

嗨。

Hey.

我是亚历克·鲍德温。

It's Alec Baldwin.

在这季我的播客里，是这样的。

This season on my podcast, here's the thing.

我采访了作曲家马克·沙曼。

I talked to composer Mark Shaman.

讲的是那种感觉。

It's about the hang.

就是和身边的人待在一起的那种开心。

It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with.

你知道吗，我和罗布总是特别聊得来。

You know, Rob and I was always a great hang.

还有导演摩根·内维尔。

And director Morgan Neville.

电影学院教给你的那些拍纪录片的方法，全都是错的。

Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary.

你想说什么？

What do you wanna say?

拍纪录片，关键在耳朵。

Documentary is all about your ear.

你听到了什么？

What do you hear?

我觉得我的工作就是特别用心地去听。

I feel like my job is listening really, really hard.

去 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts，或者你平时听播客的平台，收听《Listen to Here's the Thing》。

Listen to here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Outspoken 播客网络祝你骄傲月快乐。

Happy pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network.

整个六月，乃至全年，我们都在庆祝大胆发声、自信骄傲、永远保持独特。

All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original.

我是布兰登·凯尔·古德曼，播客《Tell Me Something Messy》的主持人。

It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy.

快来听我的节目，里面全是关于约会、感情和成年生活的真话实说。

Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting.

想听最犀利的流行文化评论，就去听《High Key》；想了解科技圈最新动态，别错过《There Are No Girls on the Internet》。

Listen to high Key for the best pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the Internet for all your tech news.

想听你最爱的明星八卦，就去听《Outlaws with TS Madison》。

For your favorite celebrity key cues, check out Outlaws with TS Madison.

通过《BFF, Black Fat Fem》学会无条件爱自己，七月起每天清晨用《Waking Up With Ryan》带着目标开启新的一天。

Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem, and start your day with intention with Waking Up With Ryan coming in July.

用Outspoken网络庆祝骄傲，打开免费的iHeartRadio应用，搜索‘骄傲’，立即收听。

Celebrate pride with the outspoken network, open your free iHeartRadio app, search pride, and listen now.

你好，欢迎回到《二十岁的心理课》，这是一档非常不正经的播客，由我——未经认证的向导Genghwa——带你们聊聊二十多岁那些重大的变化与转折，以及它们对心理的影响。

Hello and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the very unprofessional podcast, whereby I, Genghwa, your unqualified guide, talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s, and what they mean for our psychology.

欢迎来到我们的第一期正式节目，我想不出还有什么比聊聊‘冒名顶替综合征’更适合开场的了。

Well, welcome to our first official episode, and I thought what better way to get started than by talking about imposter syndrome.

我刚启动这个新项目、新播客，觉得这期话题特别贴切，因为一切都充满未知，起步时我特别紧张，总怕自己不够格、懂的太少，或者说的东西没价值。

I thought this would be a really appropriate first episode as I begin this new thing, this new podcast, just because there are heaps of unknowns, and it was a real struggle to get started because I was so nervous about seeming like an imposter, not being good enough, not knowing enough, or not having worthwhile stuff to say.

但管他呢。

But, fuck it.

我干了。

I did it.

既然这些自我怀疑一直跟着我，不如就拿它们做第一期的主题，怎么样？

And as an ode to those self doubts, why not make an episode about them to begin?

那咱们就开始吧。

So let's get into it.

我们肯定都干过这种事：刷着领英，像那些一心扑在事业上的二十岁年轻人一样，然后突然冒出一种糟糕透顶的感觉——觉得自己在工作、社交，尤其是目标上，完全是个废物。

I'm sure we've all been scrolling LinkedIn at some point like the good career focused 20 year olds we are, and spam, that awful feeling, the feeling of just being utterly incompetent in the things we do, our careers, our social circles, and especially in regards to our goals.

这种感觉叫冒名顶替综合症，就是觉得你跟那些生活井井有条、特别出色的家伙比起来，根本就是个骗子。

Imposter syndrome, it's basically this sense that we're a phony compared to all these other super impressive people with their lives entirely in order.

他们配得上自己的成就，毕竟人家确实优秀、有实力，可你呢？你觉得自己能混到今天，纯粹靠装模作样，压根儿不是靠本事、努力或者真才实学。

And they definitely deserve this their success because, you know, they're worthwhile and they're very impressive, but somehow we've ended up where we are just by our sheer ability to fake it, never mind any of our skills or worth ethic or abilities.

你确实觉得自己像个骗子，所以我才觉得这事儿特别值得聊聊，因为在二十多岁，尤其是在职场里，这种感觉太普遍了。

So you do feel like a bit of a fraud, And I thought this would be something that we should discuss and investigate because this is a huge thing in our twenties, especially in our professional lives.

你会觉得自己完全不够格，配不上现在的工作，也配不上想争取的职位。

We can feel incredibly insecure and underqualified for the jobs we have or the jobs we want.

就算你终于爬到了梦寐以求的位置，有了点经验和能力，也还是容易觉得：这机会根本不该轮到我，尤其是当你是最年轻的，或者看到别人明明比你更合适的时候。

And when we do reach positions where we've been striving for, we've been striving for them, or we do have some level of expertise and experience to contribute to a situation, it's very easy to feel like you don't deserve the opportunities you have, especially when you may be the youngest person in the room or see other people who you believe are more deserving.

结果往往陷入一种自我破坏的恶性循环，还总把成功归功于运气或者外界因素。

And what ensues can include a pretty savage pattern of self sabotage and often attributing your success to external factors.

这期节目，我们就来聊聊冒名顶替综合症的根源，以及它在二十多岁这个阶段的心理机制。

On this episode we're going to talk about the origins of imposter syndrome and the psychology of imposter syndrome in our twenties.

社交焦虑和完美主义之间有很多关联，我们待会儿会细聊，但同时我们也要从进化角度探讨一下冒名顶替综合征存在的意义。

There are an abundance of links to social anxiety and perfectionism that we'll get into, but we're also going to discuss the purpose of imposter syndrome from an evolutionary perspective.

我对很多心理概念或心理现象的看法是，如果它能一直存在下来，那它一定在自然界中有其作用。

I think a real perspective I have about many psychological concepts or psychological phenomenon is if it survived, it must have a purpose in nature.

从心理学角度看，它的作用可能是什么？而现代社会的劳动环境、文化氛围和社会结构，又如何加剧了这种现象呢？

But what might that be from a psychological perspective, and how is imposter syndrome perhaps being exacerbated by the modern day labor, cultural, and social context?

我觉得尤其在现在这个信息爆炸、社交主导的时代，我们更容易拿自己跟别人比，也更容易质疑自己的能力。

I think especially in this kind of information saturated and very socially dominated modern day, it's so much easier to compare yourself to others and judge your own competencies.

这对我们的心理打击特别大，已经让冒名顶替感和自我怀疑像流行病一样蔓延开来，我相信在座的很多人都有这种感受。

This is particularly brutal for our minds and our psychology and has created this almost pandemic of imposter syndrome and self doubt amongst, I'm sure, many of you as well.

最后我想重点谈一点，那就是女性尤其容易陷入这种情况。

And the final thing I really want to talk about is that this is particularly the case for women.

社会心理学提出的各种理论都清楚表明，男女在冒名顶替感的出现频率上存在明显差异，尤其是在职业发展方面。

And all these theories emerging from social psychology really demonstrate that there are these stark differences between genders on the prevalence of imposter syndrome, particularly directed towards our professional careers.

那我们这就来深入聊聊这个话题。

So let's get to discussing this.

那我们先来搞清楚一些基本背景，尤其是什么是冒名顶替综合症。

So let's begin by getting some of the broad contextual knowledge out of the way, mainly just what is imposter syndrome.

我在研究这期内容时，看到过一个对冒名顶替综合症最贴切的定义，来自一位作家兼艺术家。

One of the best definitions of imposter syndrome that I came across when researching this episode was from this author and artist.

他叫奥斯汀·克莱恩。

His name is Austin Klean.

他在艺术圈里做了很多关于冒名顶替综合症的研究，他的说法非常精准。

He's done a lot of work on imposter syndrome, particularly in the art world, and the way he put it was pretty spot on.

冒名顶替综合症是一种心理现象，表现为人们无法真正认可自己的成就。

Imposter syndrome is a psychological phenomenon in which people are unable to internalise their accomplishments.

这句话基本说透了。

That pretty much sums it up.

这个术语最早是两位心理学家苏珊·因姆斯和保琳·罗斯·克莱恩在七十年代提出的，后面我们会多次提到克莱恩。

So the term it was first used by these two psychologists, Susan Ims and Pauline Rose Clance, in the 1970s, and we'll go on to reference Clance quite a bit.

她可以说是这方面的先驱，把这个课题当作自己的专长，从七十年代到八九十年代一直持续研究，让这个概念广为人知。

She was, quite a pioneer around this concept, and she kept it was kind of her niche, and she continued to do a lot of work on it into the eighties and the nineties, and really kind of popularized the term.

最初这个词是用来描述一种主要影响成功女性的自我怀疑，我们稍后会再深入讨论，但现在它的含义已经扩展，用来泛指各种自我怀疑、对成功的恐惧、对失败的恐惧，以及自我 sabotaging 的情绪。

So it was first used to describe this form of self doubt that was primarily affecting successful women, which we'll discuss a little bit more later on, but now it's kind of evolved from its initial applications to describe these feelings of self doubt, fear of success, fear of failure, and self sabotage.

这个词现在变得越来越流行，我相信你肯定在流行文化、网络上见过不少相关说法。

It's become more of a popular term, so I'm sure you've seen it referenced, you know, across pop culture, the Internet.

前几天我还在 Instagram 上看到不少关于它的梗图。

I saw, you know, memes about it on Instagram the other day.

所以现在它被用来泛指一般的自我怀疑，而不再局限于当初那种对成功、失败，或者觉得自己是冒牌货的特定感受。

So it has started being applied to, you know, just more self doubt in general rather than those specific feelings of fears of success and failure and of being a fraud.

虽然它并没有被列在《精神障碍诊断与统计手册》第五版里——也就是那本涵盖所有精神疾病和心理异常的权威手册——但我认为，如今心理学家、精神科医生，甚至其他专业人士，都已经普遍承认这是一种真实且明确的智力型自我怀疑。

So although it's not an official diagnosis listed in the DSM-five, which is this big manual of all mental disorders and psychological disturbances, I think at this time psychologists and others, and even psychiatrists, they've really come to acknowledge it as a very real and very specific form of intellectual self doubt.

这种冒充者情绪通常伴随着焦虑，甚至常常引发抑郁，所以它不只是低自信或过度谦虚的表现，也正因如此，它才没有被列为独立的心理疾病，因为很多症状其实和其他疾病重叠，有时候人们只是把它看作某种已有疾病的全新表现形式。

And these imposter feelings are generally accompanied by anxiety and often depression, so it's not just another symptom of low confidence or excessive humility, but that's also the reason why they don't list it as a psychological disorder, because many of the symptoms are actually those of other disorders, so sometimes they do just see it as perhaps almost a new manifestation of a disorder someone might already have.

我个人觉得，它应该被列为一种独立的疾病，或者至少作为一个附加诊断标准，因为它确实挺严重的。

I actually think that it should be listed as its own disorder, or perhaps as a specifier, just because it is pretty serious.

患有冒充者综合症的人，往往首先会遇到明显的功能障碍，比如低估自己的能力，很难真正相信自己，总觉得自己的成就和机会不配属于自己。

So people experiencing imposter syndrome, they may firstly have a lot of functional difficulties, so they might underestimate their abilities, really struggle to believe in themselves, feel like they don't deserve their successes and opportunities.

而且他们还深深觉得自己是个骗子。

It's also accompanied by this deep sense that they're a fraud.

有些研究甚至指出，这种心理几乎带有妄想的性质——那些人无法真正接受自己的成功，总觉得不真实，结果在职业生活中承受巨大的焦虑。

And there have been some studies that have kind of suggested that it has almost a delusional basis, whereby people who have feelings, they're almost a little bit delusional, they can't really confirm the reality of their success, and they can end up suffering a pretty great deal of anxiety in their professional lives.

《福布斯》杂志，我相信大家都听说过，他们把这种现象称为高成就者的专属困境，因为只有那些真正取得成就的人，才更容易对自己的能力产生怀疑。

Forbes Magazine, I'm sure we've all heard of them, they've labelled it the domain of the high achiever, just because it's more likely to be experienced by those who have those sense of achievements or those successes that they do actually have the capacity to doubt.

我并不完全认同这个说法，我觉得这种感觉比我们想象的要普遍得多，尤其在女性和有色人种当中。

I kind of disagree with this, I think it's a lot more universal than we imagine, especially amongst women and people of colour.

一些研究甚至得出结论，高达百分之七十的人在一生中都会经历至少一次冒名顶替综合症。

And some studies have even concluded that up to seventy percent of people will experience an instance of imposter syndrome in their lives.

显然，这么高的比例可能只有少数研究得出，但它说明这绝不是什么罕见现象。

Obviously that is, you know, I'm sure only a couple of studies have found such a significant number, but it shows that it's not exactly rare.

冒名顶替综合症最大的问题在于，哪怕你做得再好，也丝毫无法动摇你内心‘我不配’‘我不属于这里’的信念，因为这种思维模式太隐蔽了。

And the huge problem with imposter syndrome is that the experience of doing well at something does nothing to change your belief that you don't belong or don't deserve to be there, just because of how insidious this thought pattern is.

所以每次你取得新的成就，反而更加强化了你‘我本来就是个骗子’的想法，让你感觉更加不安。

So every time you get more success, it almost just reaffirms your ideas of being a fraud in the first place, and it makes you feel almost slightly more uncomfortable.

我在这期节目的调研过程中，看了不少采访。

And I came across like a bunch of interviews when I was researching this episode.

像塞雷娜·威廉姆斯、娜塔莉·波特曼和谢丽尔·桑德伯格这样的人，已经是各自领域最顶尖的了，可她们都坦承自己经历过严重的自我怀疑。

Interviews with people like Serena Williams, Natalie Portman, and Sheryl Sandberg are arguably women at the very highest points in their fields and industries, and they've all admitted to this crippling imposterism.

所以，哪怕你明明有所有证据证明自己成功了，内心还是忍不住找理由怀疑自己——这简直像一种思维强迫。

So it's almost cognitive compulsion that even if you have every indication of legitimate success, you still have these reasons to doubt that.

这可能有点个人经验的成分，但我和朋友聊过之后发现，真没几个没在某些时候有过这种感觉的。

I don't know, this is kind of more anecdotal, but I don't really know anyone who doesn't at times feel this discussing with my friends the other day.

对你来说，别人就是你衡量自己的标尺。

For someone else, you are the comparison.

这简直是个恶性循环。

It's like this kind of horrendous cycle.

你觉得自己不如别人，可那个人也在拿另一个人当参照；我敢打赌，肯定有人正看着你，觉得你特别了不起，觉得你配得上自己的成就，可他自己却并不这么想。

You know, you feel really shit in comparison to someone else who has their own person whom they compare themselves to, and I'm sure there's someone out there who's looking at you thinking you're really impressive and, you know, yeah, you're worthy of your success, but they aren't.

就算我们能理性地理解自我怀疑，认清自己的优势，也知道这种心态其实很普遍，可它依然挥之不去，尤其在二十多岁、拼命想在职业和人生中找到定位的时候，特别容易拖住我们的脚步。

So even though we are able to rationalise imposter syndrome and recognise our strengths and this almost universal nature of self doubt, we really still can't escape it, and it can really hold us back, especially in our twenties when we're really trying to find our place in our chosen fields and our lives in general.

那我们现在来聊聊这种感觉的来源。

So let's now talk about where this feeling comes from.

冒名顶替综合征到底是从哪儿来的？

Where are the what are the general origins of imposter syndrome?

随着这个词越来越普及，人们对它的关注也越来越多。

So as this term has become more ubiquitous, so is the interest in this in this concept.

尤其是研究人员，经常质疑它是否真的存在。

So in particular, researchers have often really questioned its existence.

就像大多数新概念一样，一开始都会有人问：冒名顶替综合征是真的吗？

As with most new concepts, there's that preliminary questioning of is this syndrome, is imposter syndrome real?

简短的回答是：是的，它确实存在。

And the short answer is yes, it is.

没错，它确实是真实存在的。

It definitely is.

我读过一项研究，它汇总了大量相关研究，涵盖62项研究、两万名参与者，其中有一万四千多人符合冒名顶替综合征的诊断标准。

So I read this study and it was kind of summary of all these studies, and in across 62 studies, there were 20,000 participants, and 14,161 of them met the inclusion criteria for imposter syndrome.

就我个人经历来说，我确实有过这种感觉，我相信你也一定有过，这些情绪真实存在，而且对我们的生活影响深远。

Just anecdotally, I felt it, I'm sure you have as well, it does definitely seem to be these feelings that are very real and very, very impactful in our lives.

关于冒名顶替综合征的根源，目前有几种比较主流的理论。

So some pretty prominent theories kind of circulate the origins of imposter syndrome.

我最推崇的是保琳·克兰斯的解释。

My favourite's by Pauline Clance.

克兰斯就是我们之前提到的那位，她最早发现这种现象在高成就女性中普遍存在。

So Clance was the woman who we talked about before who kind of discovered this con this kind of experience amongst high achieving women.

她提出了一套行为与反应的循环模式，正是这种循环导致了冒名顶替感。

And she proposes this cycle of behaviours and reactions that lead to imposter syndrome.

关键在于，如果你能打断这个循环中的某个环节，或者避免一步步陷入这些阶段，她认为你几乎可以彻底摆脱冒名顶替感，甚至借此走向更强大的自信。

And crucially, if you can kind of break the chain within this cycle or perhaps avoid progressing along these different stages, she suggests that you can actually kind of almost cure your imposter syndrome, or it's kind of like a gateway into, into greater self confidence.

这个循环的第一步，就是冒名顶替感的起点。

So this first stage is when the imposter cycle kind of begins.

当一个人接到任务时，会首先产生焦虑的情绪。

It's when a person feels these initial feelings of anxiety when they're assigned a task.

这就像一个触发点。

So this is kind of like a trigger.

也就是说，这个任务，他们被指派要完成的事情，就是这样的刺激源。

So, you know, this stimulus, this task that they've been asked to do or something that they need to complete.

第二阶段是必须出类拔萃，必须做到最好。

So the second stage is the need to be special or the need to be the very best.

这和完美主义紧密相关，我们后面会再详细讲。

And this is really linked to perfectionism, which we'll talk about a little bit more later on.

这种必须做到最好的想法自然会引发强烈焦虑，进而导致过度准备。很多有冒名顶替综合征的人，内心其实都暗暗希望被看作是最有能力的那一个，胜过身边所有人。

So this need to be the very best is obviously pretty anxiety inducing, This anxiety leads to extreme over preparation, and many impostors or people who suffer from imposter syndrome, they often secretly harbor the need to be, you know, deemed as the most competent compared to their peers.

就像我刚才提到的，这种高得不切实际的期望，会让人在面对任务时一开始就充满恐惧。

And like I kinda mentioned, this does create a lot of initial feelings of of fear in approaching the task because your expectations are so high.

下一个阶段是‘超人’或‘超人’心态。

The next stage is superman or superwoman aspects.

既然这个人已经认定自己必须做到最好，他往往会拼命工作，透支自己，甚至觉得自己必须拥有某种超人的能力，才能真正发挥到极致。

So now that this person has committed to the idea they're going to be the very best, they'll often overwork, and overwork themselves and believe that they have some sort of superhuman ability or need to adopt some superhuman ability in order to really propel themselves and do their very best at this.

这通常会引发第四阶段，也就是对失败的恐惧。

This is often met with stage four, which is a fear of failure.

他们拼命工作，设定的期望却完全不切实际。一旦面对与成就相关的任务，这种自我怀疑的焦虑就会加剧，因为失败的可能性始终存在。

So they're kind of overworking themselves, they have these really just unrealistic expectations, And imposter anxiety is often exacerbated when you're exposed to an achievement related task because that fear of failure is such a possibility.

这让他们在自己最缺乏安全感的领域里，真切地感受到了这种压力。

So it really kind of makes it very real for them in the, like, the realm of which they're feeling insecurity.

一旦任务完成，或者快接近尾声时，就会出现否认自身能力、轻视他人赞美的情况。

Once the task is finished, or they're near the end, there's this denial of competence and discounting praise.

这就是第五阶段。

So this is stage five.

他们很难真正接纳自己的成功，也很难相信别人的夸奖是真诚的。

There's a real difficulty internalizing their successes and accepting praise as valid.

但关键在于，这并不是简单的装谦虚。

And crucially, this is not just a display of false modesty.

因为他们给自己设定了极高的标准，还深信只有具备超人的能力才能达成目标，所以到最后，他们根本无法把功劳归于自己，总觉得是外部因素帮了忙。

Because they've set their expectations so high and they've convinced themselves that they need to have these superhuman abilities to achieve the goal they've set out for, it's really hard to then take credit for it at the end, because they often have this sense that, oh, this was something outside of me that allowed me to do this.

最后，还有第六阶段。

And then finally, there's stage six.

这就是对成功的恐惧与内疚。

So this is fear and guilt about success.

比如，如果在他们的家庭或同龄人中，成功是少见的，冒名顶替者往往会感到疏离，被一种因与众不同而产生的内疚感压垮，还担心被他人排斥——这也解释了为什么我们常在那些出身不太优越的高成就者身上看到这种现象。

For example, if success is unusual amongst their family or their peers, imposters often feel less connected and more distant, and then they are kind of overwhelmed by this guilt about being different and worrying about being rejected by others, which is often why we sometimes see it amongst high achievers who perhaps came from less privileged backgrounds.

这中间有很强的关联，我之前也提过，关于冒名顶替综合征最突出的关联和理论之一，就是完美主义与冒名顶替焦虑之间的关系。

So there is this huge link, and I've kind of mentioned it before, but one of the most prominent links and theories around imposter syndrome is this relationship between perfectionism and imposter anxiety.

如果你自认为是个完美主义者，你就更可能把自己看作冒名顶替者，研究也表明，这两者常常相伴出现。

So if you're a self described perfectionist, you're more likely to kind of view yourself as an imposter, and research has shown they often go hand in hand.

有冒名顶替感或冒名顶替综合征的人，常常会感到自己必须做到完美。

So people who have imposterism or imposter syndrome will often report feelings of needing to be perfect.

就像冒名顶替者一样，完美主义者也会设定过高且不切实际的目标，一旦达不到，就会陷入大量自我挫败的想法和行为，因为这些目标远远超出了他们的能力范围。

So much like imposters perfect much like imposters in that in clients' kind of six stage model, perfectionists will often set these excessively high unrealistic goals and then experience a lot of self defeating thoughts and behaviors when they can't reach those goals because they're so beyond their limits.

在关于冒名顶替现象和冒名顶替综合征的临床文献中，完美主义被反复视为一个核心主题。

So within the clinical literature on imposter phenomenon and imposter syndrome, perfectionism, it's repeatedly discussed as a dominant theme.

你读的几乎每一篇论文都会至少提到完美主义。

Almost every paper you read will at least briefly mention perfectionism.

那种必须做到最好、必须 flawless 地完成所有事的迫切感，加上过度工作，正是冒名顶替者的特点，这也和追求完美完全一致。

So the need to be the best, the need to be able to do everything flawlessly, and their tendency to overwork are the characteristics of imposters of imposters, and that's also consistent with the pursuit of perfection.

另一个特别有意思的现象是，冒名顶替者往往轻视正面反馈，却对自己设定极高的评价标准。

And, the other thing that's really interesting is imposters' tendency to discount positive feedback and maintain high standards for self evaluation.

但他们又对自己达不到这些标准感到极度苛责，这同样符合完美主义的特征——因为完美主义者总是对自己的所作所为格外敏感和不安。

But they're also very critical of their inability to realise these standards, which could also be considered consistent with perfectionism, because perfectionists do really tend to feel self conscious about everything they do.

这导致大量自我反思，有些人因此觉得自己是个冒牌货，觉得自己不如别人，因为他们把放大镜对准了自己。

So this does lead to a lot of self reflection, and for some to feelings like they are an imposter, that they're not as good as others because they've really kind of put the microscope on themselves.

即使一个人能力出众、聪明又成就斐然，只要存在适应不良的完美主义倾向，就容易产生这种感受，这也是为什么它在冒名顶替综合征的研究中如此突出。

And even if an individual is competent, smart, and highly accomplished, having maladaptive perfectionist tendencies can contribute to this feeling, which is why it is such a dominant theme in the literature around imposter syndrome.

接下来这个，我可以说是一种理论，但更像一个广泛应用于心理学多个领域的观点：冒名顶替综合征源于你的性格和内在倾向。

The next kind of, I would say, theory, but it's more like a broad based kind of idea that gets applied to a lot of different areas in psychology, it's that imposter syndrome is a result of your personality, and it's a result of your disposition.

近年来的研究表明，神经质相关的人格特质更容易预测冒名顶替综合征的发生。

So personality traits associated with neuroticism, they're more likely to predict imposter syndrome in research that has been done in recent years.

所以研究人员考察了冒名顶替恐惧与五大人格特质之间的关系，这个我们后面几期会详细讲。

So researchers examined the relationship between imposter fears and the big personality traits, which we'll definitely discuss in a later episode.

他们特别关注了医学生群体，在瑞典做了一项研究，发现神经质是预测冒名顶替恐惧的重要因素。

And they particularly wanted to look at medical students, and they had this sample in Sweden, and they found that neuroticism was a significant predictor of imposter fears.

神经质通常和焦虑有关，所以这里的关系也就说得通了。

So neuroticism is a trait that often predicts anxiety, so hence the relationship here.

它还常伴随着自我意识强、易怒，以及情绪不稳定——不过情绪稳定是好事。

It often predicts self consciousness, irritability, and emotional stability, which is good.

冒名顶替者可能天生就具有较高的神经质倾向，因为这种特质让人更容易产生负面情绪和低自尊。

Neuroticism may be a strong preexisting trait in imposters because it refers to this predisposed trait for negative affect and for low self esteem.

冒名顶替的感觉往往包含强烈的负面情绪，比如自我怀疑，所以这两者紧密相连也就很自然了。

Imposter feelings comprise of prominent negative affect states such as self doubt, and so it kinda makes sense that these go hand in hand.

还有一项研究，我记得是针对大约两百名哈佛学生的，结果也证实了自我认定为冒名顶替者的人神经质得分更高，进一步印证了这一显著关联。

And there was another study, I think it was run on Harvard students, about around 200 Harvard students, and it also confirmed that self identified imposters are higher in neuroticism, showing and kind of reaffirming this really significant link.

正如我之前说的，我们后面肯定会聊到五大人格特质，但很多性格心理学家都认为，像神经质这样的特质是稳定且伴随一生的。

Like I said, I'm sure we'll talk about the big five personality traits in a later episode, but many psychologists and researchers in personality psychology in particular, they do really believe that a trait like neuroticism is permanent and lifelong.

这是我们性格的一部分。

It's a part of our disposition.

所以要改变这些早已形成的个性特征确实很难，这意味着很多有冒名顶替感的人，首先不该怪自己，其次，这种状态真的很难扭转。

So it can be hard to alter these pre existing personality features, meaning many people who do feel like impostors, they might firstly not have themselves to blame, but secondly, it's a very difficult thing to change.

这对那些正经历这种感受的人来说，可能是个挺悲观的结论。

Which is a pretty bleak conclusion for those of you out there who might have these feelings.

但这只是个理论。

But that's just a theory.

这只是众多理论中的一个。

That's just one of many.

我们再来看看另一些东西，有些人说这些是可以改变的，至少我们可以去应对——而我们的性格或天性似乎要稳定得多。

And let's consider something else that some would say we can change, but we can at least interact with, whereas our personality or our disposition seems pretty pretty permanent.

那我们来聊聊家庭和文化背景。

So let's talk about family and cultural context.

如果一场心理学讲座或播客不提一回天性与教养的争论，那就不算完整，所以这一期我们就来谈谈。

It's not a psychological concept or a podcast on psychology if the nature and nurture debate isn't mentioned at least once, So here it is for this episode.

到目前为止，我们讨论过的关于冒名顶替综合征成因的很多解释，都偏向于先天因素。

So far, many of the explanations that we've been discussing about the origins of imposter syndrome, they're from the nature side.

比如性格、神经质和完美主义这些概念，心理学家通常认为它们是与生俱来的，从出生起就伴随着我们。

So ideas of personality, ideas of neuroticism and perfectionism, they're all things that a lot of psychologists often assume are innate and have been with us since birth.

这些特质很难改变。

They're very difficult to change.

不过，冒名顶替综合征还有一个方面跟后天环境有关，特别是家庭环境和我们被抚养的方式。

However, there is this component of imposter syndrome that is related to nurture, particularly our family environment and the manner in which we are raised.

很多研究发现，这一点与冒名顶替感的关联，比某些性格或气质特征还要更强。

And a lot of researchers have found that this has a stronger correlation with feelings of imposterism than some of those personality or disposition features.

家庭环境、家庭互动模式、父母的教养方式，都会深刻影响孩子的成就价值观和行为表现，塑造孩子如何应对成功与失败。

So family environment, family dynamics, parental rearing styles, they can really affect the achievement values and achievement behaviour of a child, and influence how a child learns to deal with success and failure.

很多感到自己是冒名顶替者的年轻人，都是在极度重视成就的家庭中长大的。

Many young adults who do feel like impostors, they grow up in families that place a big emphasis on achievement.

特别是有一项研究，专门探讨了患有冒名顶替综合征的孩子。

In particular, this one study was really discussing kids who have imposter syndrome.

他们的父母常常对成功传递出矛盾的信息，一会儿过分夸奖孩子，说你太棒了、你真聪明、你真有天赋，一会儿又开始批评。

Often their parents will send out very mixed messages about success, so alternating between overpraised of their kids, oh, you're amazing, you're so smart, you're so intelligent, and then criticism.

这会大大增加未来产生自我欺骗感的风险，因为你根本没法建立一个稳定的基准来评估自己的智力和能力。

And this can really increase the risk of future fraudulent feelings because you don't really have a stable basis to judge your own intelligence and competence.

如果你的父母或老师总是忽而把你捧上天，忽而又把你贬得一文不值。

If you've got a parent or a teaching figure who's constantly kind of hyping you up and then also tearing you down.

那你自然会觉得像个骗子，因为你觉得自己性格或成就的稳定性根本无从谈起。

So, of course, you're gonna feel like a fraud because you don't feel like your personality or or your sense of accomplishment is consistent.

还有一点是家庭里对‘天生聪明’的强调，这一点我觉得特别有意思。

The other thing is family messages about the importance of being naturally intelligent, and I found this really, really interesting.

家庭中普遍存在的这种观念——比如是否真的存在与生俱来的智力——会从很早开始就影响所谓‘冒牌者’的抱负和期待。

So family this kind of broad based family philosophy that many have about, you know, whether natural intelligence is real can really influence the ambitions and expectations of so called impostors from a pretty early age.

冒牌者往往有强烈的取悦需求，这会让孩子为了不失去父母的爱而调整自己的行为，这也和依恋模式有关。

Impostors, they do have this need and very strong need to please, which may cause children to alter their behavior just in order to prevent the loss of affection from their parents, and this kind of also comes into attachment style.

冒牌者倾向于迎合家庭的标准，以此获得正面反馈，来确认自己的价值感。

Impostors, they do tend to conform to the standards of the family in order to gain positive feedback and verify their sense of self worth.

这些调整后的行为可能会与孩子自身的需要和能力产生冲突，因为他们更迫切地想要获得父母的爱。这会影响我们长大后独立时，如何真正接纳自己的成就，成为年轻人，成为社会中的积极一员。

And these modified behaviors may in turn conflict with their needs and their capabilities as a child because they're kind of pursuing this more dominant need to feel like they're loved, And it can create problems within our ability to internalize our success as we become more independent, become young adults, and, yeah, just active members of society.

另外，如果家庭特别强调天赋而非后天培养的智力，你就更容易把这种逻辑套用在自己的成功上。

And also, if your family has emphasized natural rather than developed intelligence, it becomes a lot easier to apply that logic to your successes.

如果智力不是你努力得来的，而是你成功的理由，那你的成功也就不是你真正赢得的。

Because intelligence, if it's not something you've earned and it's a reason for your success, then your success is not something that you've earned.

所以，那种觉得自己是骗子、不配拥有成功的感觉，往往就源于此。

So that's that feelings of being those feelings of being a fraud, feeling like you don't deserve your success.

这种想法，很可能源自父母从小灌输的一种观念。

That can really come from this almost childhood philosophy that your parents may have had.

还有就是社会压力，它们也会加剧这个问题。

And the other thing is societal pressures, and they can really add to this problem as well.

在我们的社会里，存在着巨大的成就压力。

So in our society, there's this huge pressure to achieve.

我相信大家都感同身受。

I'm sure we've all felt it.

认可、爱和自我价值之间，常常容易被搞混。

And there can be a lot of confusion between approval and love and worthiness.

于是，自我价值就变得依赖于成就，而不是无条件的。

So self worth can become contingent on achieving, rather than just unconditional.

但从进化角度来看，这个问题其实挺值得深思的。

But it's really interesting to kind of think about where this fits in terms of an evolutionary perspective.

我一直认为，我们心理和精神现象中的任何东西，只要能留存至今，就一定有它的功能。

Because a big belief, and I've said this before, I have, in terms of our psychology and different mental phenomena, is that if it survived, it must have a function if it's still here.

但我真看不出来，这种现象跟冒名顶替综合症有什么关联——毕竟，如果一个人总觉得自己不如别人，总在比较中感到自卑，这显然不是什么有利的适应性特征。

But I don't I don't really see how that does relate to imposter syndrome, because surely a feature of our minds that makes us feel incompetent or insecure in comparison to people we see as competition is a pretty poor adaptive feature.

想象一下，你刚遇到一个新部落或新群体，第一次接触就陷入深深的自我怀疑，甚至开始拖自己后腿。

You know, imagine you come across this new tribe or new group of people, and within your first encounter you're left feeling, you know, these crippling sense of self doubt, You sabotage your own abilities.

你觉得自己根本达不到别人的期待。

You feel you won't you live up to your expectations.

这种心态，恐怕帮不上什么忙。

I don't think it would be a very helpful asset.

我也不太明白为什么这种心态能留存下来，毕竟如果你总怀疑自己的能力，反而可能降低你的生存几率，进而真的影响你的表现。

I don't really know why it would survive either because it could probably end up, you know, minimizing your chances of survival if you doubt your ability to perform, which, hence, influences your ability.

所以我觉得，从基因或进化角度看，我们更可能天生倾向于过度自信才对。

So surely, I think we would be more genetically predisposed or evolutionary predisposed to excessive confidence instead.

但另一方面，我们也看到很多物种里充满了自恋者，而自恋本身就被视为一种心理障碍。

But then we also have, you know, species filled with narcissists, which is in itself seen as a disorder.

因此，冒名顶替综合症不算病，但自恋确实算。

So imposter syndrome is not a disorder, but narcissism definitely is.

看来谦逊和一点点自我怀疑有其适应性优势，但自信也同样有它的价值。

So there seems to be some adaptive benefit to humility and perhaps a tiny bit of self doubt, but also adaptive benefit to confidence as well.

只是我很好奇，为什么这种自我怀疑在如今这么多二十岁年轻人心里这么根深蒂固？

But it's just a real wonder why it's manifested in such a deeply seated way in the minds of so many 20 year olds at the moment.

仔细想想，自我怀疑似乎根本帮不上我们生存，没什么实际作用。

You know, it's very interesting to think self doubt doesn't really seem to have a function in terms of helping us survive.

那它怎么反而变得这么普遍，几乎人人都有呢？

Then how come it's become just so prevalent and widely spread?

咱们来聊聊领英，或者更广义的社交媒体，这正是本集节目的灵感来源。

Let's talk about LinkedIn, or social media kind of more generally, which really was the inspiration for this episode.

我觉得，网上大量分享个人生活，让人们对自己的比较变得容易多了。

I think the sharing of huge amounts of personal information online has made it a lot easier to compare ourselves to others.

社交媒体，包括像领英这样的职业平台——它可能是最主要的，还有脸书和Instagram——都会触发自我怀疑，因为它们给你提供了一个参照标准，让你不断拿自己去衡量，潜意识里还让你怀疑：我是不是真的配得上现在的位置。

So social media, including professional platforms, LinkedIn is probably the primary one, but also Facebook and Instagram, can really act as a as a trigger for imposter syndrome because it gives us this benchmark to compare and judge ourselves against, and it implicitly may result in a judgment of whether or not you deserve to be where you are.

比如，和你目前处境相似的人，可能早就做过两次有薪实习，还在顶尖公司工作过，才拿到现在的职位，而你刚从大学毕业。

For example, you know, someone who's in a similar position that you are now may have done two paid internships and worked for a top firm before getting their current job, whereas you've just come straight out of uni.

这就让你产生一种错觉：你之所以能走到今天，不是因为够格，而是靠运气或者其他外在因素。

So this does create a direct point of comparison for you to create a false idea that you've only gotten where you are, not because of you deserve it, but because of luck or some other factor.

这些平台还让你能随时看到比你更成功的人，或者那些你向往但还没能实现的事情。

These platforms also provide an opportunity to view people more successful than you or doing things you aspire towards but haven't had much success in yet.

难怪有了这些平台之后，自我怀疑变得这么普遍。

Which is kind of no wonder imposter syndrome has become so prevalent with the introduction of these platforms.

因为我们随时随地都能拿自己跟别人比——哪怕周六晚上躺在床上，其实根本没必要看这些让你难受的东西，但这种由新常态带来的自我怀疑，往往悄无声息，却特别顽固。

Because we can instantly judge ourselves against others at any point, any time, any situation, you know, when you're in your bed on a Saturday night, and you probably don't need to be looking at these things that are gonna make you feel bad, but this self doubt that comes from this new normal can be fairly insidious.

我确实有过这种感觉。

And I've definitely felt it.

我知道很多人都有同样的经历。

I know heaps of you have as well.

我之前一直没直接点破，但今天我们来聊聊女性和冒名顶替综合征之间的关系。

So I've kind of been teasing it for a while, but we're gonna talk about the interaction between women and imposter syndrome.

到目前为止，我觉得我们已经讲过了，冒名顶替综合征任何人都可能经历，尤其是在二十岁出头的年轻阶段。

So far, I think we've covered that imposter syndrome can be experienced by anyone, and particularly when you're in your younger years, in your twenties.

但这个说法或这个词，却更常被用在女性身上，这正是我对这个词最大的异议，我也一直想强调：这不是女性专属的问题，而是普遍存在的。

But I think this term or phrase, it's more often applied to women, and that's a huge issue I have with the term and something I've really tried to emphasise, that this is not a female issue, it's universal.

但我们的父权社会中，很多因素让女性在职场中更容易产生自我怀疑，而这恰恰被很多人当成冒名顶替综合征的标志。

But many aspects of our patriarchal society have led women to experience self doubt in their professional lives a lot more, which is what many people see as a criteria for imposter syndrome.

同样重要的是，我们要意识到，很多女性进入的环境，本身就容易让人觉得自己不配、不被尊重，甚至觉得自己价值更低。

It's also really important to recognise that many of the environments women enter can make it hard not to feel like we are less deserving, less respected, and therefore perhaps a little bit less worthy as well.

尤其是在职场环境中，这种情况尤其明显，而这种现象背后，有着深刻的历史原因。

And this is especially the case in professional workplaces, which history can kind of explain in many ways.

最近《哈佛商业评论》上发表了一篇非常出色的关于这个话题的文章。

There was an excellent article written about this recently in the Harvard Business Review.

如果你想更深入地了解这个话题，这篇文章绝对值得一读。

Definitely a worthwhile read if you wanna do some more homework on this topic.

文章标题是《别再告诉女性他们有冒名顶替综合症》。

It's called stop telling women they have imposter syndrome.

所以，别再告诉女性他们有冒名顶替综合症了。

So stop telling women they have imposter syndrome.

这篇文章见解非常深刻。

And it is a very insightful read.

没错，那两位心理学家保琳·克兰斯和苏珊娜·伊姆斯，确实是最早研究女性冒名顶替综合症的人。

And yes, those two psychologists, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Ims, they did first study imposter syndrome in women.

但咱们不妨想一想，为什么这些在学术和职业上成就卓著的女性，反而觉得自己是冒牌货，而她们的男性同行却没有这种想法？

But let's kind of ask ourselves why it was that these women with outstanding academic and professional successes, these high performing women, why was it them that believed they were intellectual frauds or imposters and not their male counterparts?

因为这项最初的研究，其实同时包含了男性和女性的样本。

Because when this initial study was first run, there was sample from both genders.

正如我刚才提到的那篇文章作者所指出的，我们常常错误地把自信——尤其是白人男性领导者展现的那种自信——等同于能力和领导力。

And as the authors of this article that I just mentioned explain, we do often falsely equate confidence, most often the type demonstrated by white male leaders, with competence and leadership.

所以，那些无法或不愿迎合这种以男性为中心的社交风格的员工，就被贴上‘冒名顶替综合征’的标签，只因为他们不肯表现得过度自信、咄咄逼人。

So employees who can't or perhaps won't conform to these male bias social styles are told that they have imposter syndrome because they're not willing to be these excessively and aggressively confident people in the workplace.

结果还让他们为此感到内疚。

And they're kind of made to feel bad about that.

这又进一步让他们产生自我怀疑，觉得自己根本不配待在这里。

And that then leads to this sense of self doubt that they maybe don't really deserve to be there.

我觉得还有一点很重要：直到大约八十年前，职场环境对包容女性还普遍充满敌意。

And I think also it's important to realise, up until about eighty years ago, professional environments were pretty hostile to the idea of including the

谁都能想到几个例子。

can all think of a few.

因此，如果你是个女性，一进入职场就本能地觉得格格不入，那产生自我价值的怀疑，其实完全可以理解。

I'm Therefore, if you're a woman entering an environment where you automatically feel as if you don't belong, it's understandable that you begin to doubt your own worthiness.

而且，当‘冒名顶替综合征’这个概念刚被提出时，系统性的种族歧视、阶级偏见、排外情绪以及其他形式的偏见，完全被忽略了。

And the impact as well of systematic racism, classism, xenophobia, and other biases, they were kind of categorically absent when the concept of imposter syndrome was developed.

所以当时根本没人提到这一点。

So it wasn't really mentioned.

那会儿正好是第二波女性主义兴起的时候。

It was kind of around second wave feminism.

他们关注的就只是女性本身。

They really just focused on women.

虽然也包括了一些少数族裔女性，但根本不是有意去覆盖更广泛的人群。

And, yes, they did include some women of color, but it wasn't really like they were looking to identify in broader kind of groups of people.

很多群体都被大规模排除在外了，尤其是少数族裔女性、不同收入阶层的人，以及各种职业背景的人。而如今我们知道，‘冒名顶替综合症’这个概念，把责任全推给了个人，却完全忽略了那些塑造了少数族裔女性和白人女性体验的历史与文化背景。

So many of the groups that were excluded from the study in large, so namely women of color and people of various income levels and different professional backgrounds, Even as we know it today, imposter syndrome really does put blame on individuals without accounting for the historical and cultural context that are foundational to how it manifests in both women of color and white women.

所以‘冒名顶替综合症’这个说法，把注意力全放在了‘改造女性’上，而不是去改变她们所处的工作环境，也从不考虑：女性感到自己格格不入，难道不正常吗？

So imposter syndrome directs our view towards fixing women at work instead of fixing the places where women work, and doesn't always account for the fact that no wonder women feel like shit.

难怪我们总是被贴上‘冒名顶替者’的标签。

No wonder we get accused of imposter syndrome more.

难怪其他少数群体中这种感觉更普遍——毕竟，历史早就让我们在各种环境中习惯了觉得自己不配被接纳。

And no wonder that's even more prevalent amongst other minority groups because of the historical basis in which we've been made to feel accepted in different environments.

所以这又回到了我们最初讨论的问题：冒名顶替综合症到底存不存在。

So it kind of brings this back to this discussion of whether imposter syndrome exists, which is where we kind of started.

还是说它只是一个文化建构，用来责怪那些因性格、成长环境或长期被排斥所经历的历史创伤而受苦的人？

Or is it just a cultural construct used to, you know, shame people who are victims of their personality and upbringing or historical trauma of exclusion from certain environments?

不管你怎么看，有一点是显而易见的：这种觉得自己不够格的感觉，其实非常普遍。

And I think regardless of your perspective, what is obvious is that these feelings of being a fraud are pretty universal.

如果你曾经有过这样的自我怀疑，那你绝对不是一个人在战斗。

And if you have experienced this type of self doubt before, you're definitely not alone.

这难道不是挺让人安心的事吗？

And isn't that kind of a nice feeling?

我一直觉得，知道自己不是唯一有这种感受的人，真的很温暖。

I always think that's a nice feeling, not being alone in something.

如果这期节目教会了我们另一件事，那就是别再刷领英去跟别人比了。

And if there's another thing this episode has taught us, it's, I guess to stop going on LinkedIn to compare ourselves.

我也不确定。

I don't know.

也许这一集最后变成我在吐槽LinkedIn了。

Maybe this has just turned into an episode where I hate on LinkedIn.

你走到今天这一步，肯定有你的理由，你完全配得上每一个机会。

But you got where you are for a reason, and you do deserve every opportunity that comes your way.

冒名顶替综合征，这真不是你的错。

Imposter syndrome, it's not your fault.

这其实早就深深烙在我们心里了。

Like, it's definitely been kind of ingrained in us.

根源来自家庭、天性，或者性格本身。

All comes from our families or our disposition or our personality.

所以，这事你真不用太自责。

So you can definitely kind of skirt some of the blame on that one.

总之，希望你喜欢这第一期有结构的节目。

Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed this first structured episode.

下周我们要聊的是‘分手式分手’。

Next week we're gonna be discussing break up breakups.

所以，没错，就是这个大话题。

So yes, the big one.

我们都经历过。

We've all been there.

我最近也刚经历了一次，所以觉得咱们真有不少东西可以聊，顺便引入一些心理学理论，解释一下为什么分手这么让人难受。

I've been there recently, so I feel like we do have heaps to discuss and hopefully bring in some useful psychological theories to explain why breakups just fucking suck as much as they do.

如果你看到这儿了，再次感谢你的收听。

And thanks again for listening if you've made it this far.

这节目还在摸索中，我也是新手，但我相信每一期都会比上一期更好。

This is a work in progress, and I'm new to this, and I'm sure I'll improve every episode.

不过还是非常感谢你一直以来的支持。

But thanks for your support thus far.

如果你有任何想法，可以在Instagram上私信我，账号是‘twenties psychology podcast’，咱们下周再聊。

And if you do have any feedback, you can DM me on Instagram, twenties psychology podcast, and we'll talk next week.

非常感谢你的收听，希望你这个周末过得愉快，也期待你下周迎来所有美好的事情。

Thanks so much for tuning in, and I hope you guys have a great weekend and enjoy all the things this next week has to bring.

它是

It's

但如今有一种全新而令人兴奋的方式，助你开启通往更快乐生活的旅程——《Joy 101》，由我主持的全新播客。如果你渴望灵感，想要最大化你的快乐，就来收听这些真诚、鼓舞人心又动人的对话吧。立即免费打开你的iHeartRadio应用，搜索“Joy 101”，现在就开始收听。《Joy 101》由Hodakotvi主持，由CBS出品。

also elusive but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence joy one zero one it's a new podcast hosted by me how to copy if you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats open your free I heart radio app search joy, one zero one and listen now Joy one zero one with Hodakotvi is presented by CBS.

嗨。

Hey.

我是亚历克·鲍德温。

It's Alec Baldwin.

本季我的播客《Here's the Thing》中，

This season on my podcast, here's the thing.

我采访了作曲家马克·沙曼。

I talked to composer Mark Shaman.

讲的是那种放松的感觉。

It's about the hang.

就是和身边的人待在一起时，那种纯粹的愉悦。

It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with.

你知道，我和罗布在一起总是特别自在。

You know, Rob and I was always a great hang.

还有导演摩根·内维尔。

And director Morgan Neville.

电影学院教给你的那些拍纪录片的方法，全都是错的。

Film school teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary.

你想表达什么？

What do you wanna say?

拍纪录片，关键在于你的耳朵。

Documentary is all about your ear.

你听到了什么？

What do you hear?

我觉得我的工作就是认真地、非常认真地听。

I feel like my job is listening really, really hard.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、苹果播客或者你常用的播客平台收听《Here's the Thing》。

Listen to here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

来自Outspoken播客网络的快乐骄傲月。

Happy pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network.

整个六月，乃至全年，我们都庆祝大胆、自信、永远独特的生活方式。

All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original.

我是布兰登·凯尔·古德曼，播客《告诉我点乱七八糟的》的主持人。

It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy.

快来听我的节目，里面全是关于约会、感情和成年生活的真话。

Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting.

想听最棒的流行文化评论？去听《High Key》；想了解科技圈最新动态？别错过《互联网上没有女孩》。

Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news.

想追星、看明星八卦？推荐你听《Outlaws》与TS Madison一起聊。

For your favorite celebrity key keys, check out Outlaws with TS Madison.

通过《BFF》学会无条件爱自己，通过《Black Fat Fem》感受真实力量，七月份别忘了用《和瑞安一起醒来》开启有目标的一天。

Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem, and start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July.

和Outspoken网络一起庆祝骄傲月。

Celebrate pride with the outspoken network.

打开免费的 iHeartRadio 应用，搜索‘骄傲月’，立即收听。

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search pride, and listen now.

这是 iHeart 播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

百分百真人制作。

Guaranteed human.