238. 高功能共生依赖与过度关心特辑 ft. 泰瑞·科尔

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

《珍娜世界》、珍娜·詹姆森、Vivid视频以及《山谷》是一档关于成人电影产业历史的新播客。我是莫莉·兰伯特，将作为向导带您开启这段狂野的成人电影之旅。我们比男性赚得更多，掌握着话语权。这何谈贬低？

Jenna World, Jenna Jameson, Vivid Video, and The Valley is a new podcast about the history of the adult film industry. I'm Molly Lambert, and I'll be your tour guide on a wild trip through adult films. We get paid more than the men. We call the shots. In what way is that degrading?

这正是我们掌控自己人生的方式。请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何您收听播客的平台订阅《珍娜世界》。要知道这档节目就是

That's us taking hold of our life. Listen to Jenna World on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know the shade is

最犀利的点评尽在此处。《合理毒舌》第六季由吉赛尔·布莱恩和罗宾·迪克森主持，每周一更新。作为《波托马克娇妻》创始成员，我们将为您奉上爆笑瞬间、戏剧冲突和真人秀猛料。我们向来直言不讳，每周一欢迎加入这场或理性或毒舌的狂欢。请在Black Effect播客网络的iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客等平台收听《合理毒舌》。

always shadiest right here. Season six of the podcast, reasonably shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday. As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle. And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday. Listen to reasonably shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

NBA冠军斯蒂芬·库里带来《投篮就绪》，首次揭秘改变篮球格局的思维模式。

From NBA champion Stephen Curry comes shot ready, a powerful never before seen look at the mindset that changed the game.

我痴迷于枯燥训练。你必须从无人喝彩的日常训练中找到乐趣。成功绝非偶然。现在我把球传给你，一起出发吧。

I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident. I'm passing the ball to you. Let's go.

斯蒂芬·库里重新定义了篮球运动。如今他正在改写成功的定义。即刻登录stephincurrybook.com订购《纽约时报》畅销书《投篮就绪》。

Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Order your copy of the New York Times bestseller, Shot Ready, today at stephincurrybook.com.

我是伊娃·朗格利亚。

I'm Eva Longoria.

我是梅特·戈梅斯约翰。本周在我们的播客《历史之饥》中，我们将探讨牡蛎的话题，还有米安比酋长做客节目。

And I'm Maite Gomesjohn. And this week on our podcast, Hungry for History, we talk oysters plus the Miambi chief stops by.

如果你不喜欢牡蛎，

If you are not an oyster lover,

就别跟我说话。

don't even talk to me.

古雅典人曾将名字刻在牡蛎壳上，用以投票放逐政客。所以我们今天使用的‘ostracized（放逐）’一词就与‘oyster（牡蛎）’有关。

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster.

真的假的。让陶片放逐法回归吧。收听《历史之饥》，可在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取节目的平台找到我们。

No way. Bring back the ostracon. Listen to hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your

欢迎回到《二十几岁的心理学》，这档播客我们会探讨二十多岁经历的重大人生转变及其对心理的影响。大家好，欢迎回到节目，欢迎回到播客。无论新听众还是老听众，无论身处何方，很高兴你们再次加入，和我们一起解析二十几岁的心理奥秘。

and welcome back to the psychology of your twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our twenties.

在自助领域里，'共生依赖'这个词经常被随意使用。但它也常被严重误解，我们许多人并不真正理解它所描述的行为模式。我们还倾向于认为自己能轻易识别共生依赖——想象一个对他人缺乏界限、情感上极度依赖甚至身体上依附的人。但当共生依赖的表现与我们通常预期的截然不同时，又会怎样呢？

Codependency is a word that gets thrown around a lot in the self help space. But it's also incredibly misunderstood and a lot of us don't really understand the pattern of behaviors it describes. We also tend to believe that we would be really good at recognizing codependency when we see it. We think of someone who lacks boundaries around others, who is incredibly emotionally, sometimes physically dependent on other people. But what about those situations when codependency doesn't look like the codependency that we've typically come to expect?

当表现为总是成为他人遇到麻烦时的求助对象时呢？永远负责制定聚会计划、组织旅行、分摊账单，从没有属于自己的时间，或被他人的情绪需求偏好搞得精疲力竭。这会不会也是共生依赖？我们总是赞美这种自我牺牲的付出行为，视之为无私。但这是否只是我们试图控制局面的表现？

What happens when it looks like being the person that others always come to when they're in trouble? Always being the one to make group plans, organize travel, divvy up the check, never having a minute for yourself or feeling very exhausted by everyone else's emotions, needs, preferences. Could that also be codependency? We tend to really reward and praise this kind of self sacrificing and giving behavior and we see it as selfless. But are we really just trying to control a situation?

是否只因掌控全局让我们更有安全感？这些都指向一种'高功能型共生依赖'，这是过度付出者中普遍存在却更隐蔽的共生形态。今天我想探讨这个让我着迷的概念。为此我邀请到发现这种现象的心理治疗师兼界限专家泰瑞·科尔，她常在全球讲解这个话题。泰瑞，欢迎来到节目。

Do we just feel more secure when we are in charge? All of this indicates something called high functioning codependency, which is a more invisible form of codependency really common amongst over giving, overextending individuals. And I wanna talk about it today because it is a concept that has just fascinated me. And to talk about it, I wanna welcome on the psychotherapist and the boundary expert, Teri Cole, who discovered this phenomenon and who talks about it a lot to people worldwide. So Teri, welcome to the show.

谢谢邀请。

Oh, thanks for having me.

我真的很兴奋。在进入提问环节前，能先简单介绍一下自己吗？

I'm really, really excited. Can you give a little intro, tell people who you are before we dive into my into my questions for you today?

当然。我是心理治疗师、关系专家、界限与沟通专家，从业二十七年。著有《界限掌控者》一书，十月份将出版新书——

Sure. I am a psychotherapist and a relationship expert. I'm a boundary expert communication. I have been doing this for twenty seven years. I am the author of a book called Boundary Boss, and I have a new book that's coming out in October.

确切地说本月15号上市的《过度：打破高功能型共生依赖循环指南》。我专精女性赋权领域，这确实是我的核心方向。在成为心理治疗师前，我曾是超模明星合约谈判经纪人，当时没人理解我为何转行。

Actually, this drops on the eleventh, so in on the fifteenth of this month called too much, a guide to breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency. So I'm I'm really an expert in female empowerment. Like, that's really what my my deal is. I was a talent agent negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities before I became a psychotherapist. So I left this career that no nobody really understood why I was leaving that career.

我父亲当时就说，喂，你在干嘛？你要去当社工了。什么？喂？

My father was like, hello. What are you doing? You're gonna become a social worker. Like, what? Hello?

为什么你要那么做？有趣的是，在成为治疗师之前从事过其他职业，但我自己是受到心理治疗经历的激励。我简直不敢相信你能如此改变自己的人生，而且我拿到什么牌真的不重要。那些破事并不能决定我要怎么打人生这副牌。我决定，我不喜欢那张牌。

Why why are you doing that? And it's interesting when you have a different career before becoming a therapist, but I was motivated by my own experience in therapy. I just couldn't even believe how much you could change your own life and that it really did not matter what cards I was dealt. Like, that shit did not determine the hand I was gonna play in life. I decided, I don't like that hand.

我甚至不喜欢这该死的游戏。我根本不玩这个游戏。我要创造全新的游戏规则，后来我也确实这么做了。但能看见这种可能性，全因我在心理治疗中的自我蜕变。尽管那时我拥有光鲜亮丽的职业，人人都觉得了不起，赚着大把钞票，还混迹好莱坞。

I don't even like this fucking game. I'm not even playing this game. I'm making up an entirely new game, which is what I did. But I was able to see that possibility because of my own personal evolution in therapy. And then even though I had this fancy, very shiny career that everyone thought was amazing and I was making a ton of cash, and I was in Hollywood.

你知道，那时我纽约洛杉矶两头跑。看起来什么都有，很风光，但我不快乐。直到某天你不得不承认——我再也无法欺骗自己了，唯一让我牵挂的竟是模特们的心理健康。

You know, this was New York and LA. I was bicoastal. It's like I had. It was fancy, but I wasn't happy. And you just get to a point where you can't like, I just could no longer deny that the only thing I cared about was the mental health of the models.

我就想，老兄你得转行了，因为你根本不想继续待在这个行业了。但我真心想帮助别人。于是三十出头时我决定成为心理治疗师，至今已从业二十七年。

I was like, you you need to change careers, dude, because you don't even wanna be here anymore doing this. But I really wanted to help people. And so I was in my early thirties when I decided to become a psychotherapist, and I've been doing that for twenty seven years.

这故事太不可思议了。真的非常了不起。说实话，这明显是种使命召唤。听你讲述时我感受特别明显，就像'啊，确实如此'。

That is an incredible story. Just incredible. And honestly, it is very indicative of of a calling. It it's just so clear to me when you're explaining that. That's like, oh, this yeah.

那份工作不适合你，因为显然有更高层次的召唤——可能是你的灵魂、你的个性在指引你。而现在你已经实现了

It wasn't the right fit for you because there was a higher thing that obviously maybe your soul, your personality was was calling you to. And now you've done

一些

some

在这个领域做出了令人难以置信的惊人工作。最初你写了这本关于界限的精彩书籍，我强烈推荐。你还有一个很棒的YouTube频道，我读了一些你关于界限的视频评论。很多人都在说，哇，我的眼睛突然看到了一个全新的现实。

incredible incredible work in this space. What initially so you wrote this incredible book on boundaries which really I would recommend. You also have an amazing YouTube channel and I was reading some of the comments on a video that you did around boundaries. And the amount of people who are like, wow. Like, my eyes are suddenly open to an entirely new reality.

我认为这就是谈论心理健康、心理学和接受治疗的力量。是什么让你对依赖症产生了兴趣，就像你最初进入这个领域一样？

I think that is the power of talking about mental health, talking about psych psychology, embracing therapy. What drew you to codependency in the same way that you were initially drawn into this space?

我简单分享一下原因。为什么我会提出高功能依赖症这个概念？对吧？为什么？难道关于依赖症的内容还不够多吗？

The reason I'll I'll just share quickly. Like, why did I come up with high functioning codependency? Right? Why? What was there not enough on codependency?

答案是确实不够，而且对我的客户来说也不合适。我反复看到的是，我有这些非常优秀的女性客户，她们有的是CFO，有的是国际流行巨星。你知道，就是那些在生活中非常成功的人。当然，并不是所有人都是这样。

Well, the answer is there wasn't, and it wasn't the right stuff for my clients. So what I saw over and over again is that I would have I have these baller women who are CFOs. I mean, international pop star. Like, you know, people who are crushing the game of life. And and not all.

还有一些是家庭主妇，她们也很了不起。对吧？不是每个人都有显赫的事业，但很多人确实有。我用她们举例是因为很多时候，人们会看着一个年薪250万美元的公司CFO，觉得她显然一切都很好。然而，当我对她们中的任何一个人说，嘿，

And then some are stay at home moms, which are amazing too. Right? Not everyone had huge careers, but a lot did. And I I use them as an example because so much of the time people will look at someone who's a CFO of a company and making $2,500,000 a year and be like, obviously, they have it all together. And yet when I would say to any one of those people, hey.

你在关系中描述的模式是一种依赖症模式。这就是我说的。她们会立刻反驳说，是啊，女士，我才不依赖别人呢，是所有人都依赖我。

What you're describing in your relationship is a codependent pattern. That's what I'm saying. They would immediately reject it and be like, yeah, lady. I'm not dependent on squad. Everybody's dependent on me.

我在赚所有的钱。我在掌控所有行动。我在控制所有人。我在管理家里的一切。我在照顾所有孩子。

I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm controlling all the people. I'm managing everything in the home. I'm managing all the kids.

我来自原生家庭。我在整理所有这些破事。所以他们看不见。于是我意识到，哦，我的客户们不知道什么是共依存症。结果就是他们被困在老套的旋律里，宝贝不再共依存。

I'm my family of origin. I'm organizing all this shit. So they couldn't see. So I realized, oh, my clients don't know what codependency is. So what happened is they were stuck in the old school melody, baby codependent no more.

你必须是在纵容一个酗酒者才能算是共依存。是啊。但这根本不准确。根本不是真的。懂吗？

You have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to be a codependent. Yeah. And that just is not accurate. It just isn't true. You know?

没错。所以当我把'高功能'加进共依存定义，并向客户解释——当你过度投入于他人的情绪状态、结果、人际关系、财务状况、感受等一切，却损害了自己内心平静时。对吧？我们需要这个限定，因为这并不相同。当然，我们都希望所爱之人快乐，这很明显。

Yeah. So when I added high functioning to codependency and explained to my clients what it is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, right, the relationships, the finances, the feelings, all of it, of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. Right? And we need that caveat because it's not the same. Of course, we're all invested in the people we love being happy, obviously.

我们本是正常的善良人。但当你属于高功能共依存时，就超越了那个程度。我们感觉被迫要承担起来。

We're like normal nice people. When you're high functioning codependent, it's more than that. It's like we feel compelled to take it on.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们实际上对他人的情绪状态和结果感到负有责任。而当我将'高功能'加入定义时，我所有客户都毫无羞耻地举手承认：就是我，我就是问题所在。好吧。

We feel actually responsible for other people's feeling states and their outcomes. And at its at its you know, when I when I added the high functioning to the definition, my clients, all of them without shame, raised their hands saying, it's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Alright.

虽然不想引用泰勒的话，但我还是要说。我会的。我刚刚已经这么做了。你懂我的意思吧，就是那种他们觉得‘没错’的感觉。

Not to quote Taylor, but I will. I will. I just did. For it. You know what I mean, though, where they felt like Yeah.

确实如此。我过度付出了。我做得比应尽的多。我在家里承担了所有情感劳动，这让我很恼火，因为问题就在这里。

That's true. I am overfunctioning. I am overgiving. I do do more than my share. I am doing all the emotional labor in my home, and I am pissed because that's the thing.

这种情况可以持续很久。但迟早，这种状态会让人陷入痛苦的深渊。就像‘是啊’，你能忍受的时间是有限的。明白我的意思吗？

You could do that for a long time. Sooner or later, that shit is a one way ticket to bitter land. Like Yeah. There's only so long you can do it. You know what I mean?

完全同意。当我深入研究这个概念时，发现一个有趣的现象——我对此深有共鸣。你会陷入一种思维模式：‘我付出太多了’，但实际上，在这个过程中你只是在允许他人越界。你没有意识到，你以为自己在为他人付出一切、做对他们最有利的事，但实际上，如果你设立更强的界限，对他们反而更好。如果他们一开始就清楚你能提供什么帮助、你的能力范围以及你需要的个人时间，情况会更好。

Absolutely. And it was interesting when I was looking into this where at just how much I resonated with this concept, where you get into this mindset of being like, I'm so I I'm I'm giving so much, but you realize that actually all that you're allowing in that process of giving actually you're just allowing boundaries to be crossed for the sake of others. And you don't realize that actually you are assuming that you are giving people everything for everything for them and that you are doing what's best for them. But actually, they would be better off if you had stronger boundaries. They would actually be better off if you were more able to not just say no, but to have like entire systems in place in the first place and expectations around what they could come to you for, what you were able to do, the time you needed for yourself.

正如你所说，加入高功能元素后，我认为这也能减少对‘共生依赖’的一些偏见。人们常以为共生依赖只适用于那些想时刻黏在一起的人，或是纵容他人滥用药物的人。但事实并非如此。正如你提到的，这种现象常见于许多高成就女性和高成就个体中，他们可能将共生依赖作为保持安全感、控制他人感受（从而控制自己感受）的手段。那么典型的迹象有哪些呢？

And as you said, when you add that high functioning component, I think that also reduces some of the perhaps stigma around codependency. That codependency is only about people who just wanna spend a lot of time with each other or only about people who enable substance use. It's actually not the case. It shows up in a lot of very as you said, high achieving women, high achieving individuals who are perhaps using codependency as a way to stay secure and stay in control of other people's feelings and therefore their own feelings. So what are some of the typical indicators?

如果你对一位心理咨询的客户说：‘我认为高功能共生依赖可能与你有关’，你会如何向他们描述？你会描述什么样的个体特征？

If you were talking to a therapy client and you said to them, oh, you know, I think that high functioning codependency is something that you might relate to, what would you describe to them? What kind of individual would you describe to them?

好的，我认为——是的，我会向他们描述这些特质（现在也会向你说明）。然后我们会讨论行为表现，接着探讨代价，最后研究应对方法。明白吗？我们该如何改变。我们就按这个顺序来，好吗？

Well, I think, yes, I would describe to them, which I will describe to you, the traits. And then we would hit the behaviors, and then we would hit the costs, and then we could hit what we what what you can do about it. Right? How we can change it. So let's do it in that order, shall we?

好的，请讲。

Yes, please.

特质。总觉得有责任解决别人的问题。付出到伤害自己。对吧？即使没人要求，也会超额完成任务。

Traits. Feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems. Giving till it hurts. Right? Going above and beyond even when you're not asked to.

很多时候，我二十多岁时做的那些破事，根本没人要求，但我还是觉得没得到应有的感激。总是随时准备进入损害控制模式。就像，随时待命应对任何危机，我们是那种你想在战壕里并肩作战的朋友，因为我们在危机中很可靠。我有点在评判别人，因为内心深处，我们真觉得自己知道他们该怎么做。嗯哼。

And a lot of times, a lot of the shit I was doing in my twenties, nobody was asking, and I still felt underappreciated for it. Always ready to jump into damage control mode. Like, at the ready for any crisis, we are the friend that you wanna be in the foxhole with because we're we're good in a crisis. I'm kind of being a little judgy of others because deep down, we really kinda think we know what they should be doing. Mhmm.

我们有点像在说，如果贝蒂半年前听我的和那个白痴分手，现在就不会哭了。我们可能会有点自以为是。当别人不接受我们一流的建议时，会感到沮丧和愤怒，感到精疲力尽、怨恨、痛苦、 burnout（倦怠）。这些就是特质。行为模式。

We're a little bit like, if Betty had just listened to me and broken up with that idiot six months ago, she wouldn't be crying right now. We can get a little a little self righteous. Getting frustrated and angry when other people don't take our grade a advice, feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter, burnt out. So those are traits. Behaviors.

嗯，自动给建议，就是向任何愿意听的人提供未经请求的建议。嗯哼。过度自我牺牲。就像你刚才描述的，为别人包办一切。自动迁就。

Well, auto advice given, just giving unsolicited advice to any and all who will listen. Mhmm. Being overly self sacrificing. Again, as you just kind of described, like doing all the things for other people. Auto accommodating.

所以我想谈谈这个我提出的概念，因为我自己也深受其害。我当时想，不可能只有我一个人遇到这种情况。那是个周六，我在纽约的美发沙龙里，超级忙。我通常周六不去，因为那里像动物园一样。

So I wanna talk about this concept that I also originated because it was something that I suffered from. I was like, I cannot be the only person where where this is happening. So it was a Saturday. I was in my salon in New York City, and it was super busy. And I normally don't go on Saturday because it's like a zoo in there.

但不管怎样，我必须去。我坐在那里，忙得要命。我躺在洗头池边，头发上敷着发膜。现在洗头池开始排队了。

But, anyway, I had to go. And I'm sitting there, and it's busy as hell. And I'm laying in a sink. I've got my hair mask on my hair. And now the sink traffic is starting to back up.

每次看到另一个人头上裹着毛巾站在那里等待，我就越来越焦虑，因为我占着洗手台，但没人对我做什么。对吧？我只是坐在这里，我本可以带着面膜坐在别处的。于是我叫来助手说，嘿。

And every time another person is standing there with a towel on their head waiting or whatever, I'm getting more and more anxious because here I am taking up a sink, but, like, nobody's doing anything to me. Right? I'm just sitting here. I could be sitting somewhere else with the letting this mask sit. So, anyway, I call over the assistant and say, hey.

我可以挪位置。你知道吗？当然，她看我的眼神就像在说‘废话，女士，我知道你能挪，但不需要你动，我每周六都这样处理’。

I could move. You know? And, of course, she's looking at me like, no shit, lady. I know you could move, but I don't need you to because I do this every Saturday. Yeah.

我是说，她人很好。她说‘我们没问题’。然后我突然意识到，塔拉，你到哪儿都这样。

I mean, she was nice. She was like, we're good. Okay? And I had this realization. I was like, this is how you are everywhere, Tara.

你对外界环境过于敏感，总觉得要负责。对吧？我毫无理由地为洗手台的使用流程感到责任重大，尽管我也是顾客。

You're so dialed into your external environment. It feels like you are responsible for. Right? I felt responsible for the sync flow for no good reason. Seeing as how I was a customer as well.

其实——这是五年前的事，我还把视频传到了YouTube上。就随便拍了个短视频，结果爆红。网友都说‘天啊，这就是我’。

And I I I actually just this was only five years ago, and I actually put it on I put it on YouTube. Right? I did just did, like, a quick, like, video, and it went totally viral. And people were just like, oh my god. That is me.

所谓‘自动迁就’，就是看到环境有需求就想冲上去解决，想帮忙。很多人网上对我说‘我只是好心，好心有什么错？’

So auto accommodating is when you basically see a need in your environment, and you just wanna jump in and fix it. You just wanna jump in and help. You just you know? And, again, a lot of people will say to me online, I mean, I'm just being nice. Like, what's wrong with being nice?

我会说：关键在于，如果你无法克制这种行为，那就不是好心——而是一种强迫症。

And I'm like, here's the thing. If you can't not do it, you're not being nice. It is a compulsion.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

有点

Bit of

真相炸弹来了。

a truth bomb there.

没错。这就是为什么我在书中和我的社群中引导大家的方式是：我们从高功能共依存中恢复，但不会被完全治愈，因为这是一项需要长期坚持的修行。要改变这些行为需要时间，明白吗？

Right. Which is why the way that I walk you through it in the book and the way I walk you through it in my my community is that we get into recovery from high functioning codependency. But we don't get cured because this is a discipline. To to change these behaviors takes time. You know?

另一种行为是预期性规划。比如你要和人相处时——我在书里讲过关于我朋友的故事，她当时约会对象是个十足的混蛋，我特别讨厌那人。总之...

Other behaviors are anticipatory planning. You know, you're gonna be with people. I tell a story in the book about my friend who was dating this person who was just such a you know, just such a jerk. I hated this person. But anyway Yeah.

当时我们要去旅行，她伴侣也来了。这个人会强烈触发我的共依存倾向，因为他太难相处了，还折磨我朋友，和他们待在一起简直是噩梦。但即便如此，我还是会确保：安排不同的房间住，让他住最好的房间以免抱怨；他喝什么酒我们就准备什么酒。

But we were going away, and so her partner was coming. And I this was someone who just kicked up my codependency hardcore because they were so difficult. And then they torture my friend, and it just was like a nightmare being with them. But, anyway, I would make sure that we're you know, there were different rooms to stay in, that they stayed in the nicest room so that he didn't complain. And I would make sure that whatever he drank, we would have that booze there.

类似的事情还有很多。后来我才意识到：何必呢？干脆别和他们一起去啊！你明明不喜欢这家伙。但这就是预期性规划的表现。

Like, there was all these things. And I realized later, was like, why? Just don't go away with them. You don't like this guy. Like but that's what anticipatory planning is.

你可能会和家人一起处理这种事，对吧？两个互相看不顺眼的人。你会想，好吧，我不会让他们坐在一起，而不是像HFC那样试图操控局面，像操纵木偶一样掌控一切，而不是直接和家人沟通说：嘿，如果你们两个解决不了问题，那圣诞节谁也别来。

You might do it with family. Right? Two people who don't like each other. You're like, well, I won't set them near each other instead of that's very HFC to try to we're manipulating and we're like puppet mastering what's happening as opposed to having a conversation with the family members saying, hey. If you two can't figure it out, neither one of you are invited to Christmas.

对吧？为什么不坦诚相待，直接沟通呢？但作为HFC，我们通常不这么做。我们都是好女孩，你知道的，我们都想表现得友善。

Right? Like, why not, you know, talking true, just having a straight conversation? But as an HFC, usually, we don't do that. We're all good girls. We're all you know, we all wanna be nice.

我们不想让别人觉得我们不友善。嗯。另一种行为就是过度包办。这种过度包办与消极应对的互动模式在HFC中非常普遍——我二十多岁时就能在两周内把一个完全能干的男友变成消极应对者。

We don't want people to think that we're not nice. Mhmm. Other behaviors is just overfunctioning. And the overfunctioning and underfunctioning dynamic is super common with HFCs, where I say that I could take in my twenties, I could take a perfectly capable boyfriend and turn him into an underfunctioner in two weeks or less.

是啊，意思是你包揽了他所有责任。安排约会、规划他的生活、提醒他该洗衣服了、什么时候该给妈妈打电话等等。

Yeah. In the sense that you could take on all of his responsibilities. You could plan the dates. You could plan his life, what laundry he needs to be doing, when he needs to call his mom, whatever it is.

对，可能不会细致到那种程度，但真相是他们根本没有发挥空间，因为HFC的座右铭之一就是'我来搞定'。我们总忍不住说'我来搞定，没事的，一切都好'。

Yes. Maybe not down to that minutiae, but the truth was there wasn't room for them because the mantras of HFCs are like, I got it is one major mantra. We just can't stop being like, I got it. It's good. It's all good.

我来搞定，对吧？因为我们确实很能干。很多时候我们确实能搞定，但有能力不代表你应该永远包揽。明白吗？

I got it. Right? Because we are so capable, though. So a lot of times we do got it, but just because you can doesn't mean you should all the time. You know?

嗯。另一个座右铭是'必须我来做'。总觉得别人做得不够好，达不到我们的标准，或者不能按时完成。所以我们心里总想着：还不如我自己来做比较省事。

Yeah. Or another mantra is it has to be me. It's like this belief that other people won't do it as well, won't do it the way we want it done, won't do it in a timely fashion. So it's just easier to do it myself is a lot of what we're saying in our minds. Yeah.

那么这一切的代价是什么？你想谈谈这个吗？

So what is the cost of all this? Do you wanna talk about that?

我想谈谈这个，但首先，我想先快速问个问题。当然。因为在讨论代价之前，我真的很想知道问题的根源是什么。听你讲述时，我注意到几点。第一点可能是你说的完美主义成分。

I wanna talk about that, but firstly, I wanna just quickly ask this question. Sure. Because before we get into the cost, I really wanna know what's at the root of this. Because I'm listening to you talk about this and a few things have come out for me. The first one is maybe an element of perfectionism like you said.

有种感觉是，只有亲力亲为地掌控每个行为、每个动作、每件导向结果的事，才能完全掌控结局。只有精心安排座位表、确保每个人都开心，才能控制圣诞节顺利进行。所以可能是完美主义。然后我在想，也许是控制欲，但同时也带着点讨好型人格的成分，对吧？

There is a sense that the only way that you can fully control an outcome is if you are beside beside every single behavior, action, everything that led you leads you to the place. The only way to control whether Christmas is going to go well is if you carefully curate the seating plan, you make sure everyone is happy. So maybe it's perfectionism. Then I'm thinking maybe it's control, But then but then also like an element of people pleasing. Right?

我喜欢你之前说的，这真的是善意吗？还是一种强迫行为？比如，你本质上真是个好人，还是根本无法接受别人不喜欢你、或事情不按让你感到安全的方式发展？嗯。

I like what you said before around, is it really kindness? Or is it or is it a compulsion? Like, are you actually Correct. At your core a nice person, or can you just not fathom the idea of people not liking you or things not happening the way that makes you feel safe and secure? So Mhmm.

真正的根源是什么？是这三者的结合，还是我漏掉了其他因素？

What is really at the root of this? Is it a combination of these three things, or is there another ingredient that maybe I'm missing as well?

我觉得你很敏锐，因为这些因素——我是说，所有共生依赖的基础，尤其是高功能型共生依赖，就是控制欲。这是对他人结果明目张胆或隐秘的操控。我们就是不想让朋友嫁给那个蠢货。我们会竭尽全力帮她看清现实。

Well, I think you are very astute because those ingredients I mean, the foundation of all codependency, but especially high functioning codependency is control. It is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes. We just don't want our friend marrying the stupid idiot. We don't. We wanna do everything we can to help her see the light.

我们不想伴侣被解雇，所以会——你懂的——不是放任他们挣扎，而是赚更多钱。明白我意思吗？我们会过度代劳来保护他人免受伤害。当然最终这让他们感觉更糟，所以实际上适得其反。

We don't want our partner getting fired, so we will, you know, not we will make more money and let them flounder. Like, right you know what I mean? Like, there's we will over function to protect other people from feeling bad. Of course, ultimately, it makes them feel worse. So it doesn't really work in that way.

是的，过度和不足的功能表现，完美主义。但控制欲在其中占了很大比重。由于它带有如此负面的含义，人们不愿与之认同，但这正是其本质。你可以随便怎么称呼它，但事实就是如此。我们想要控制他人的结果。

So, yes, over and under functioning, yes, perfectionism. But control is such a big part of it. And because it has such a negative connotation, people don't wanna identify with it, but that is absolutely what it is. We could you know, you could call it whatever the hell you wanna call it, but that that is what it is. We want to control other people's outcomes.

但在这种无意识驱动的过程中，大部分都是无意识的。就像我们因为只想要平静而不断自我放弃。作为高功能依赖者，我们只希望山谷里能有和平。是的，我们只希望每个人都快乐，对吧？

But in the process of being so driven unconsciously, so much of this is unconscious, It's like there's so much self abandonment that goes on because we we just want peace. As HFCs, we just don't we just want there to be peace in the valley. Yeah. We just want everyone to be happy. Right?

我们只是不想有问题。所以那种和平，比如我们会保持沉默。知道吗？谢丽尔·理查森有句名言：'为了维持表面和平而沉默，实际上是在内心发动战争。'

We just don't want problems. And so that that kind of peace, like, we won't say anything. You know what? What's her name? Cheryl Richardson has a great quote that it's like, you know, not not speaking up to keep the peace starts at war within ourselves.

说得太对了。我其实还有个问题。因为你说到控制欲，感觉这就像是我个人的心理治疗课。

That is spot on. Spot on. I've got another question for that actually. Sure. Because you're saying control, and I feel like this is my own personal therapy session.

对吧？因为控制欲是我的...是的。你有没有发现高功能依赖者与长女或长子之间存在重叠或关联？这些人可能被社会化和条件化，像母亲或家庭负责人一样承担所有责任。

Right? Because control is my my Yes. Big Is there have you found that there is an overlap or maybe a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those of us who are eldest daughters, or people who are the eldest sibling who have perhaps been socialized and conditioned to take on all this responsibility the same way that maybe a mother would or maybe someone in charge of the family would.

大家好，我是艾德·赫尔姆斯，欢迎回到《SNAFU》——我的历史重大失误播客。新一季我们将每期带来一个新的历史失误故事。

Hey. It's Ed Helms, and welcome back to SNAFU, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new SNAFU every single episode.

32枚遗失的核武器？你会想：等等，停一下，什么？没错。

32 lost nuclear weapons? You're like, wait. Stop. What? Yeah.

厄尼·沙克尔顿听起来像是个七十年代实力派篮球运动员，还戴着护膝的那种。没错，这将充满历史、欢笑和众多嘉宾。伟大的保罗·谢尔

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid seventies basketball player. Who still wore knee pads. Yes. It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer

让我感觉很好，我心想，哇哦。

made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow.

安吉拉和珍娜，你们能来我太兴奋了。

Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

对你们来说，这样温和地加入节目感觉如何？

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

抱歉珍娜，今天由我来提问。

Sorry, Jenna. I'll be asking the questions today.

我忘了我们正在录谁的播客了。

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

尼克·克罗尔，希望这个故事精彩到能让你放下手里的三明治。所以我们...我们...

Nick Kroll, I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's let's

我们看看情况如何。

let's see how it goes.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方，收听由艾德·赫尔姆斯主持的《SNAFU》第四季。

Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到《解码女性健康》。我是伊丽莎白·波因特医生，纽约市阿德里亚健康研究所女性健康与妇科主任。在本节目中，我将与顶尖研究人员和临床医生对话，解答你们迫切的问题，并将关于女性健康及中年生活的信息直接传递给你们。

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm doctor Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.

百分百的你。

A 100 you.

人们常提到的症状类型是忘性大。我以前从不健忘。他们一方面担心自己患有痴呆症，另一方面又在想：我是不是有注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）？

The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything. I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one, they have dementia, and the other one is do I have ADHD?

大麻和大麻素在改善睡眠、减轻疼痛、提升情绪以及提高日常生活质量方面展现出前所未有的潜力。

There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day to day life.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你当前收听的地方，收听由伊丽莎白·波因特医生主持的《解码女性健康》。

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with doctor Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.

我是伊娃·朗格利亚。我是梅特戈·梅兹雷洪。在我们的播客《历史之饥》中，我们将最爱的两样东西——美食与历史——融合在一起。

I'm Eva Longoria. And I'm Maitego Mezrejon. And on our podcast, Hungry for History, we mix two of our favorite things, food and history.

古雅典人曾将名字刻在牡蛎壳上进行投票，他们称之为陶片放逐法，用来放逐政客。所以我们今天说的‘ostracized’（放逐）一词就与‘oyster’（牡蛎）有关。

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells, and they called these ostracon to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster.

真的吗？让陶片放逐法回归吧。而且因为我们节目氛围很轻松，朋友们总会来串门。

No way. Bring back the ostracon. And because we've got a very kind of vibe on our show, friends always stop by.

几乎每一个进入这一侧的入口

Pretty much every entry into this side of

都是通过墨西哥的埃尔加福。不，是美国人。

the planet was through El Garfo de Mexico. No. The American.

不，是美国人。

No. The American.

墨西哥在那个时期的进步程度让我震惊。他们推行了土地改革，确立了劳工权利，还普及了教育权利。

It blows me away how progressive Mexico was in this in this moment. They had land reform. They had labor rights. They had education rights.

古埃及人视芥菜籽极为珍贵，常将其放入墓中以备来世之用。

Mustard seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they used to place them in their tombs for the afterlife.

欢迎收听《饥饿历史》节目，作为My Cultura播客网络的一部分，您可在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何播客平台订阅。

Listen to hungry for history as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是《珍娜世界》——关于成人电影产业历史的全新播客。我是主持人莫莉·兰伯特，曾制作《海蒂世界：海蒂·弗莱斯的故事》。我们将带您深入成人电影的狂野世界。我们比男性赚得更多，我们掌控全局——这何谈贬低？

Jenna World, Jenna Jameson, Vivid Video, and The Valley is a new podcast about the history of the adult film industry. I'm Molly Lambert, host of Heidi World, The Heidi Fleiss Story, and I'll be your tour guide on a wild ride through adult films. We get paid more than the men. We call the shots. In what way is that degrading?

这正是我们主宰人生的写照。九十年代，女星珍娜·詹姆森闯入主流文化，重新定义巨星标准后又急流勇退。作为强势女性，我认为这让男性感到威胁。本节目集结数百名演员和喜剧明星演绎关键人物，带您见证成人电影如何在七十年代合法化、八九十年代暴利，却在二月遭遇财务断崖。

That's us taking hold of our life. In the nineteen nineties, actress Jenna Jameson crossed over into mainstream culture, redefined stardom, then left it all behind. I'm a powerful woman. I think that's intimidating to a man. With a cast of hundreds of actors and comedians playing key figures, we'll take a look at how adult films became legal in the seventies, hugely profitable in the eighties and nineties, and fell off a financial cliff in the February.

请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何播客平台收听《珍娜世界》。

Listen to Jenna World on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你是否发现高功能依赖症人群与我们这些长女之间存在某种重叠或关联？

Have you found that there is an overlap or maybe a correlation between people with high functioning codependency and those of us who are eldest daughters.

没错。毫无疑问存在大量'长女综合征'，但也有很多'乖乖女综合征'。无论在家庭系统中的哪个位置——想想家庭系统理论就知道——人们扮演着各种角色。而每个人都来自某种失序的家庭系统。

Yep. Without a doubt, a lot of eldest daughter syndrome, but also a lot of good girl syndrome. Yeah. So in any any any place that you are in the the family system because if you you think about family systems, right, there's all these different roles that people play. And everyone was from some kind of a disordered family system.

我是说，谁不是呢？所以在我家的体系中，我父亲是个高功能酗酒者。他有份好工作，事业有成，50岁就退休了。我是说，他确实做得不错，但这改变不了他用酒精来管理情绪的事实。

I mean, who wasn't? So if my family system my my father was a high functioning alcoholic. So, you know, had a great job, a great career, retired at 50. Like, I mean, you know, did well, but it doesn't change what yeah. You know, how he managed his emotions was with alcohol.

而且你知道，我们被教育要做好女孩。当家庭系统存在问题时，关注点会不同。在有任何成瘾行为的家庭系统中，大多数家庭成员都会围绕着那个人转。而在健康的家庭系统中，是以孩子为中心的——我不是说溺爱孩子。

And, you know, we were raised to be good girls. And the focus when you have a there there are different ways that the family systems are. In a in a family system where there is addiction of any kind, most people in the family system are organizing around that person. So in a healthy family system, it is child focused. I don't mean child obsessed.

我指的是以孩子需求为中心来安排活动。在功能失调的家庭中，活动往往围绕着某个'指定病人'转，可能是心理健康有问题的人。

I just mean child focused where the activities are around what the children need. In a more dysfunctional system, the activities are around. It could be a designated patient. Right? It could be someone with mental health.

也可能是身体不好的人，或是大家都围着转的施虐者。但你学会了逆来顺受。七岁时没人需要教你怎么避免被拒绝、被虐待，你本能地就知道该怎么讨好，甚至知道怎么给酗酒的母亲调下一杯酒。

It could be someone who's physically unwell. It could be an abuser that people organize around. But you learn how to go along to get along. You know, nobody needs to send you, like, a note when you're seven to figure out how to avoid being rejected, how to avoid being abused. Like, you immediately know it intuitively how to be helpful, how to go make mommy's next drink even if mommy's an alcoholic.

因为你是解决方案的一部分，你不想让她生气、批评或拒绝你。所以很多时候这些因素也很关键。我在家庭系统中扮演着'英雄孩子'的角色，就是无论发生什么大家都公认你很棒的那个。但你要肩负起让全家有面子的责任。

Because you're a part of the solution, and you don't want her to be mad or to judge you or to reject you. So a lot of times, those things make a difference too. I I grew up as the hero child in my family system. So that's the one where everyone can agree that that person is amazing no matter what else is going on. But you sort of have it on your shoulders to, like, make the family look good.

对吧？所有人都认同你很优秀，是个赢家，明白我的意思吗？

Right? Yes. Everyone can agree that you're you're good. You're a winner. You know what I mean?

嗯。但这些角色都不是免费的。所有家庭系统角色——无论是替罪羊还是其他——都各有代价。不过我注意到很多高功能人士不是长女，就是第一代移民，或者父母是第一代移民。

Mhmm. But none of these roles are free. So all of the family systems, whether you're the scapegoat, whether you're you know what I mean? All those roles play a part. But I find that a lot of HFCs are eldest daughters or first generation or their parents were first generation.

要知道，这种情况很多，因为文化因素太丰富了。我是说，我们怎么会都有一个下载好的HFC蓝图？其实每个人都有。这基本上就是你的关系模式蓝图。它由你在原生家庭学到的东西、成长的国家、文化环境、社会背景以及你在家庭系统中的角色共同构成。

You know, there's a lot of that too because there's so much culture. I mean, how do how do we have a downloaded HFC blueprint? All of us do. Which is basically your relational blueprint. And this is made up of what you learned in your family of origin, the country you grew up in, the culture, the society, your role in the family system.

所有这些因素会逐渐融合、交织，形成你潜意识里的素材，告诉你这就是我在世上与人相处的方式——不论是与教会里的人、伴侣、朋友、表亲还是其他任何人。对吧？我们都有套‘本该如此’的认知。在这个过程中，我正变得更健康。我在《边界掌控》里引导人们理解这点，在《过度付出》中我们也用不同视角探讨过。

All of these things sort of coalesce, come together, and this makes up the unconscious material that is in your mind that tells you this is the way I should relate in the world, whether it's with the people at church, whether it's with my partner, whether it's with my friends, whether it's with my cousins, who whatever. Right? We have a how it should be type of thing. And part of this process, I'm getting healthier. And I walk people through it in Boundary Boss, and we also walk through it in Too Much in different with different lenses.

对吧？因为在《过度付出》里，我们真正审视的是：在特定情境下，你学到了哪些关于如何与他人及世界相处的模式。毕竟HFC（高功能依赖）和普通依赖是不同的。嗯。因为我们甚至会对几乎不认识的人产生依赖关系。

Right? Because in Too Much, we're really looking at what did you learn about the way you're supposed to relate to other people in specific situations and the world, though. Because with HFCs, it's different than sort of regular codependency. Mhmm. Because we can get we can become codependent with people we don't even freaking know barely.

比如出于对他人的关心，我们可能会对环境或刚认识的人产生某种依赖。至少我曾这样，我在来访者身上也常看到这种现象。

Like, because we're concerned about others. We can sort of get codependent with our environment and people we just meet. At least I did, and I see this in my clients as well.

听你谈论这些时，你能看到我不停点头赞同。你说它几乎像布线一样植入我们的潜意识或无意识——尤其是童年时期，但又如同与生俱来的蓝图，这观点很有意思。我们都有这种倾向。当然，我们童年获得的蓝图本质上源于生存需求。

Oh, I'm just listening to you talk about this and but you can see me just nodding my head being like, yeah. Tick tick tick. And it's interesting what you said around it being almost wired into our subconscious or unconscious, especially as children, but also coming coming to us almost as a blueprint. We all have this capacity. And, of course, the blueprint that we all have as as children comes from a place of survival.

这就是为什么我们天生就会特别迎合照顾者或父母的需求——因为我们必须依赖他们。我们天生具备变色龙般的适应力，擅长取悦他人，这都是为了生存。那么高功能依赖是否也源于此？是否因为你习得了某种行为模式，通过让自己更可控来使生活更轻松？

That's why we are born to be particularly accommodating to the needs of a caregiver or a parent because we are reliant on them. It's why we are born to born in in a being able to chameleon, being able to please others. It's all survival. So is that also where high functioning codependency comes from? Is at some point you've learnt a pattern of behavior that's made life easier for you by allowing you to be more in control?

这也是你经常遇到的情况吗？

Is that also something that that you see a lot?

确实。从某种意义上说，这是一种控制错觉，但它确实有其道理。同理，当我们谈论童年时，很多人可能在童年时期就被迫承担父母角色。被父母化有两种形式：一种是情感上的。

I do. And the thing is it's in a way, it's an illusion of control, but it does make sense. And along the same minds, if we're talking about childhood, you might have a lot of people being perentified in childhood. So there's two different ways of being parentified. One is emotional.

如果你的父母像对待成年人那样与你交谈，向你倾诉不恰当的心事，或让你分担诸如'我们没钱交电费'之类的成人压力。明白吗？这是一种方式，近乎情感层面的父母化。另一种则是实质性的父母化，比如你要为弟弟妹妹做饭。

If you have a parent who talked to you like you were a grown up, told you things about themselves that wasn't appropriate, or shared adult burdens with you about we don't have the money to pay the lights or whatever. You know? That's one way. It's almost like the emotional parentification. And then there's the actual parentification, like the physical where you might be making dinner for younger siblings.

你可能需要负责打扫房子。任何被父母化的孩子——如果你的父母有毒瘾、酗酒或心理健康问题——即使你只有十岁，你也可能成为房间里唯一像大人的人。这会造成什么影响？它会形成高功能性的共依赖关系和能力。想象一下，如果你九岁就会做饭，你的能力简直惊人。

You might be expected to clean the house. You might like, anyone who is parentified and if you had addicted parents or, alcoholic parents or parents with mental health challenges, you might have been, like, the only sort of adult in the room even though you were 10. So what is what does this do, and what does it create? It's creates high functioning codependency and the the abilities. Like, imagine if you're cooking dinner at nine, you're capable as hell.

想象到了19岁、29岁、39岁时你会多么能干。几乎没有什么事是你解决不了的。这样的童年经历会让你极度执着于解决问题，因为另一种选择是失控感、受害感或真正成为受害者。但许多童年时期的适应性行为在成年后反而变得不适应了。所以我们必须重新审视：这合理吗？

Imagine how capable you are by 19, 29, 39. It's like there's, like, not anything you can't figure out. And when you have a childhood like that, right, it makes you very, very committed to figuring it out because the alternative is feeling out of control, is feeling victimized, is being victimized. But a lot of those things that were adaptive in childhood become maladaptive in adulthood. So we have to revisit them and go, does this make sense?

我应该为所有人包办这些事吗？这符合我的最高利益吗？我有精力做这些吗？还是只是在自动驾驶模式下机械行事？

Should I be doing all of these things for all of these people? Is this in my highest and best interest? Do I have the bandwidth to do this rather than being on autopilot?

是的。我认为这很好地过渡到了代价这个话题，因为你已经为我们做了铺垫。这不仅让我们个人付出代价，对我们的关系又意味着什么？当我们以为在帮助别人时，以为自己是充满爱心的给予者。我预感你会告诉我们，这未必总是最有益的做法。

Yeah. I think this is a great transition into talking about the cost because you've you've really introduced this to us. So what does this cost us individually, but also in terms of our relationships as well? When we think we might be helping someone, we think we might be this loving, giving person. I have a feeling that you're gonna tell us that maybe that isn't always the most beneficial thing.

没错。因为关键在于——我简短分享个故事（书里也写过），正是这件事改变了我二十多岁时对共依赖和高功能共依赖的认知。

Yeah. That's true. Because here's the thing. I'll tell you a quick story, and I share it in the book. But this is what actually changed my life when it comes to codependency and high functioning codependency in my twenties.

我的一个姐妹曾深陷困境，她和一个吸食快克成瘾的人在一起，自己也是个酗酒者。他们住在森林里一栋没有自来水也没有电的房子里，那个男人还虐待她。所以对我来说，这就像每天都要应对五级火警。我满脑子都在想，要怎么把她从这种家庭地狱中救出来？你懂吗？

One of my sisters was in a bad situation with someone who was doing crack addict, and she was an active alcoholic. And they were living in a house in the woods with no running water or no electricity, and he was abusive. So, I mean, for an HFC, it's like a five alarm fire every day. And I was obsessed with, like, how am I gonna save her from this domestic hell? You know?

比如，我能做什么？所以我向我的治疗师哭诉，泪流满面地说，贝芙，我已经竭尽所能了。我该怎么办？她说，特里，让我问你一个问题：凭什么你认为自己知道妹妹此生需要学习什么，以及她该如何学习？

Like, what am I gonna do? So I was crying to my therapist and bawling my eyes out and saying, you know, Bev, I've done everything. What am I gonna do? And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it?

但你知道这一切对你意味着什么吗？我当时显然不知道。我说，请告诉我吧。她说，特里，你非常努力才营造出和谐的生活。

But do you know what's happening for you in all of this? And I was like, obviously, no. I do not. Please clue me in. And she said, Terry, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life.

你妹妹的烂摊子正在严重破坏你的平静。你想解决这个问题，因为归根结底，你是想结束自己的痛苦。她没说错。是的，确实如此。

Your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your peace. You want your pay you wanna you want that to be fixed because ultimately, you want your pain to end. She is not wrong. Yeah. That is true.

嗯。所以你认为这是否存在某种自我安抚的成分？你试图不说消除，而是解决这个压力源。当然，在非常亲密的关系中，尤其是兄弟姐妹之间，家人之间，你会感受到他人的痛苦，那种羁绊超乎寻常。你觉得你和妹妹的关系是恶化了，还是到了她不再听你劝的地步？

Yeah. And so do you think it was an element of, like, in your attempts to soothe yourself and to not to say eliminate, but to fix this, like, stressor for you. Because, of course, when it comes to very close relationships, you feel someone else's pain, especially as a sibling, especially as someone in your family. There is a bond there that is incredibly otherworldly. Do you think that actually the relationship you have with your sister deteriorated or did it get to a point of her not listening to you?

我也有过类似经历，从朋友那里学到：你不能直接叫人分手，因为结果只会是他们不再向你倾诉坏事。所以你所谓的帮忙其实适得其反？反而让他们更孤立？最后她那个情况怎么样了？当然，你愿意分享的话。

I've had this before with people where and and I've learned this with friends where it's like you can't tell someone to just break up with their boyfriend or break up with their girlfriend or their partner because all that's going to happen is they'll just stop telling you the bad stuff. So you're actually not helping them in your in your attempts to fix it? Like, you're actually further isolating them? What what ended up happening with her in that situation? If you wanna share, of course.

是的，没关系。我在书里读到过，我已经分享过了。所以没问题。

Yeah. No. I do. I read about it in the book, I I've already shared. So no problem.

我对我的治疗师说，那我该怎么办？比如，我现在有什么选择？她说，特里，你需要设立界限。要知道，那时我才二十多岁，是个毫无界限感的神奇存在。嗯哼。

I said to my therapist, so what do I do then? Like, what what are my options now? And she said, Terry, you need boundaries. Because remember, it was my twenties, and I was the boundaryless wonder. Mhmm.

所以我完全没有界限。我甚至不知道可以和姐姐设立界限。我完全没概念。我当时想，什么？我既能当好妹妹又能做到这点？

So I had no boundaries. And I didn't even know I could have boundaries with my sister. I had no idea. I was like, what? I could be a good sister and do that.

她说，听着。你不必听她谈论那个男人，但如果她需要你，你可以在她身边。于是我和姐姐谈了。我说，嘿，我不能和你讨论这个。

She said, listen. You don't have to let her talk to you about this guy, but you can be there if she needs you. So I talked to my sister. I said, hey. I can't talk about this with you.

这让我太痛苦了，严重影响了我的生活，但我爱你。无论何时如果你真想摆脱困境，我永远是你的依靠。我永远都在。她真的理解了。她说，你知道吗？

It's so painful and disruptive for my life, but I love you. And when and if you ever really wanna get out, I'll always be your person. I'll always be your person. And she was she really understood. She was like, you know what?

我明白了。好吧。之后九个月里我们聊过几次，然后她打电话给我说，我准备好了。你还是我的依靠吗？我说，哦，当然。

I get it. Okay. And we talked a few times in nine months, and then she called me and said, I'm ready. Are you still my person? And I was like, oh, yes.

我是。我开车去接了她。这个故事最重要的意义在于，通过这样做，我姐姐准备好改变她生活中不如意的部分，而不是让她的小妹妹成为她故事里的英雄——这正是我们在强行介入、忍不住对人指手画脚时做的事。我们实际上把自己置于对方问题的中心。天啊。

I am. Got in my car, went and picked her up. And the most important aspect of this story is that by doing that, my sister was ready to change what wasn't working in her life instead of her youngest sister being the hero in her story, which is what we're doing when we insert ourselves, when we can't stop telling people what to do. We're literally centering ourselves in that person's problem. It's so god.

这是我最难想通的一点。我当时想，哦，我原来在这么做吗？太糟糕了。但她最终自己想通了。她成功戒酒了。

That was the hardest thing for me to, like, wrap my own mind around. I was like, oh, is that what I'm doing? That's terrible. But I she ended up finally coming to it. She got sober.

她重返校园了。我和丈夫以恰当的方式帮助了她，但她才是自己故事的主角。这不关乎我，而是关于她。而我深爱她到能够忍受那种感受的程度。

She got back to school. My husband and I helped her in an appropriate way, but she is the hero of her own story. It's not about me. It's about her. And I loved her enough to tolerate the way that felt.

对吧？因为这就是爱的真谛。爱不是自动修复他人，而是愿意与你共赴战壕，即使你在受苦，即使我认为你本可以通过结束这段关系来终结痛苦。但她不会仅仅因为我准备好了就跟着准备好。

Right? Because that's what love is. Love isn't auto fixing other people. Love is being like, I'll be in the foxhole with you even when you're suffering and even when I think you could end your suffering by ending this relationship. But she wasn't ready just because I was ready for her to do it.

这坚持下来了。她再没回到他身边，也再未陷入那样的关系。这都是几十年前的事了，明白吗？

And it stuck. She never went back with him. She never got into another relationship like that. And that was this is decades ago. You know?

是的。她后来有了自己的事业。这是她自己做到的，而当我们无休止地认为知道别人该做什么时，就剥夺了他们的自主权和尊严。那我们还能做什么呢？对吧？

Yeah. She's gone on to have a career. It's like she did that herself, and we rob people of their sovereignty when and and their dignity when we're endlessly thinking we know what they should be doing. So what can we do instead? Right?

我们付出的代价也很大。精疲力竭、健康受损、心生怨怼——我称之为'活在生活表层'，当我们不断沉迷于他人他事时，就无法全然活在自己的生命中。当你只半心半意地活着时，生活的滋味也会减半——本该鲜活的体验只剩一半，本该惊艳的感受也只剩一半。

The cost to us is great too. Burnout, health, bitterness, living life light is what I call it when we're constantly obsessed and, you know, in our minds about other people and other things. We're not fully present in our own life. And life hits different when you're kind of only half here. It's like half as juicy as it should be, half as amazing as it should.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that word.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

是的，我有。

Yeah. I do.

太对了。我们无法完全表达自我，因为我们没有专注于自己，而是关注他人。然后我们还要承担对他人的代价，侵犯他们的自主权，对吧？

So true. And we're not fully self expressed because we're not focusing on us. We're focusing on others. And then we have the cost to the other people, their autonomy. Right?

不接受他们本来的样子。人们变成了待改造的项目。没人喜欢这样。他们不喜欢。我也讨厌被人当成一个项目的感觉。

Not accepting them where they are. People become projects. Nobody likes that. They do not like it. And I hate it when I feel like someone thinks I'm a I'm a project.

我真想揍他们。我会说，嘿，老兄，看看我的生活。看起来我需要你的建议吗？我不需要。

I wanna punch them. I'm like, hey, man. Look at my life. Does it seem like I need your advice? I don't.

请别再给我建议了。这非常不尊重人。是的，这不是我们想做的。那么我们还能怎么做呢？

Please stop giving it to me. It's very dehumanizing. Yeah. Which is not what we're trying to do. So what can we do instead?

总之，你们都在听。我们觉得，好吧，太好了，谢谢。我意识到问题了。

Anyway, you guys were listening. We're like, okay. Great. Thank you. I'm identified.

现在我能做什么？希望我们这场对话能提升你的意识。你需要审视自己的界限。很多时候在HFC状态下，我们才是无意中践踏他人界限的人。我们并非有意为之。

Now what can I do? Well, let's hope that you've raised your awareness through this conversation that we're having. You need to take a look at your boundaries. And when we're HFC is a lot of times, we're the ones trampling on other people's boundaries. Inadvertently, we're not meaning to.

但当你在对方没有寻求建议时主动给出建议，或者因为担心某人付不起房租就直接往他们账户打钱时——我曾有个客户一直为她38岁左右的儿子付房租。她说‘以防他钱不够’，而我觉得这背后的潜台词是这样的。

But when you give someone advice who hasn't asked you for advice, when you just transfer money into someone's account because you're worried they're not gonna make their rent right. I had a client who was paying rent for, like, 38 year old son or whatever it was. Oh my And I was like, you know, she's like, well, just in case he doesn't have enough. And I'm like, this this is what I think is happening. Here's the subtext of that.

你那个不善理财的儿子来找你说：‘我觉得我做不到，我撑不下去了，我不知道该怎么办，我觉得自己是个失败者。’而你每月给他钱，这传递了什么信息？

Your son who's mismanaging his money comes to you and says, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I'm gonna make it. I don't know how to do this. I think I'm a loser. You giving him money monthly, what are you saying?

我同意你的看法，我也觉得你是个失败者。我也不认为你能做到。

I agree with you. I I agree. I think you're a loser too. I don't think you're gonna do it either.

哇，那她停止这样做了吗？

Wow. And did she stop doing it?

是的。但她改变了方式。我说关键不是要切断资助，而是要表达对他的信任：‘我相信你有解决问题的能力，我知道你能找到办法。’

Yes. But the thing is she changed it. I was like, the conversation isn't about cutting him off. The conversation is about believing in him. I have faith that you are resourceful, and I know that you're gonna figure this out.

我认为我之前的做法并没有真正帮到你，我很抱歉。但我真心相信你，所以不会再给你钱了。你已经38岁，有工作，是成年人了，我想尊重这一点。

And I don't think I've been helping you. And I'm sorry, but I honestly do believe in you, which is why I'm not gonna be giving you any more money. You're 38. You have a job. You're grown up, and I wanna respect that.

我想尊重你的自主权。对于那些已经形成依赖的人，与其自动给出建议——因为大多数善良的人会觉得这是关爱的一部分——不如先提高自我觉察：注意你有多频繁地想给别人建议。

I wanna respect your autonomy. You know? Instead of giving the auto advice stuff too for people who are really identified, because I feel like most people, if you're a loving person, you just think that's a part of it. So instead of immediately giving advice or having ideas or suggestions, I want you to just start to raise your awareness about how often you want to give advice. Right?

你总想时不时发表自己的意见。但与其这样，当朋友带着问题来找你时，即使最终你会给出建议，首先要说的是：好的，在我们讨论之前，先告诉我你认为应该怎么做——因为这是你的处境，没人比你更清楚自己的感受，毕竟这是你的人生。我在这里陪着你，我们可以一起头脑风暴。

How often you want to add your 2¢. And instead of that, if your friend comes to you with a problem, even if you eventually give them your 2¢, the first thing you're gonna say is, okay. Before we get into it, you tell me what you think you should do because you're in a situation nobody's gut is better than yours about this because it's your life. And I'm here too. You wanna brainstorm it.

你可以随意抛出想法，想怎么做都行。但重点是要把主动权还给他们，因为事实就是如此——你其实并不知道他们该怎么做。之后你可以分享自己的经历，但我觉得这不该是第一步，不该是对话的起点。

You wanna spitball it. Whatever you wanna do. But it's like putting the emphasis back on them because it's the truth. Like, you actually don't know what they should do. You can share experiences you had if you want to later, but I feel like it can't be the first step, the first stop on the bus.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为现在我们正把对话引向自己的'最佳建议'，而不是问'你对此有什么感受？后来发生了什么？那是什么感觉？他们怎么说的？'——其实存在一种提问方式能打开话题，而全神贯注地倾听才是世上最温暖的陪伴。

Because now we're co opting that conversation and bringing it back to our grade a advice instead of saying, so how do you feel about that? And then what happened? Well, what was that like? And then what did they say? Like, there's a way to ask expansive questions, and it's the most loving thing in the world to give people your undivided attention.

特别是当这种专注不是为了后续提建议时。懂我意思吗？我领悟到的是：要让人们有机会向你证明他们自己有能力解决问题。我们常常在听人倾诉时，已经在心里盘算该给他们什么建议、我们会怎么做、如何帮忙。可你有没有遇到过这种情况——对方正在情绪激动地抱怨，你刚要给出建议，就能明显感觉到他们根本不想听？

Especially if it's not undivided attention with the purpose of then providing advice. You know what I mean? I feel like that's really what I'm getting from this is allow people to show you that they're capable. I feel like so often we we listen to someone's problems and we're concocting exactly what we think that they should do and what we would do and how we can help. And have you ever had one of those situations where someone is just ranting and very upset and you go to give them advice and you can just say they just really don't want it?

他们其实完全不感兴趣。事实上，正如你所说，他们需要的只是有人倾听。听着这些，我想起和朋友相处的类似场景，想起和姐妹们的相处——我总是直接插话说'要不这样，如果你需要的话我可以帮你付钱'。

They really are not interested. Actually, what they want is, as you said, for someone to listen to them. And I'm listening to this and thinking about situations with my friends. And I'm thinking about situations with my sisters where I have just jumped in and been like, okay. So, you know, I can just pay for that if you want.

你知道吗，如果你在担心...前几天我妹妹跟我聊天时，我就想，如果你在担心这个，我可以直接给你转点钱。但这件事让我明白的是，我们本可以继续聊上二十分钟。而因为我立刻给出了解决方案，实际上我并没有真正听到她的感受。

You know, if you're worried about you know, my sister was talking to me the other day and I like, well if you're worried about that, like, I'll just send you some money. What became really clear to me in that as well was that we could have gone in and talked for like another twenty minutes. But also because I just immediately offered that solution, I actually didn't really hear how she was feeling and

没错。

Correct.

我最初的反应就是直接介入，说'天哪，我太爱你了，让我们解决这个问题吧。我能做什么？也许你打电话给我就是为了这个。'但后来我意识到，其实不是这样的。

My initial reaction to just jump in and be like, oh my gosh, I love you so much. Let's fix this. What can I do? Maybe that's why you're calling me. I think I realized was like, actually, no.

你打电话给我只是因为你希望被倾听，而不是因为你想要被'修复'。

You're calling me just because you wanted to be heard, not because you wanted to be fixed in a way.

说得太好了，太真实了。你完全正确。你的见解非常棒，因为你完全说中了。这种高功能依赖行为会限制我们关系的亲密度，因为你刚才描述的就是我们的做法。我们了解他人的方式是问：'如果你知道该怎么做，你觉得会是什么？'

That's so good and it's so true. And you're exactly right. Your your insights are so good because you're exactly right. This behavior, high functioning codependent behavior, it limits the intimacy that we have in our relationships because exactly what you just described is what we do. So how we know people is we go, so if you did know what to do, what do you think it would be?

或者'你以前有过这种感觉吗？'当我们提出开放性问题时，才能真正了解他人。另一个很有帮助的做法是，当你想给建议或不确定对方是否痛苦时——即使是对你妹妹——你总是可以说：'现在我能怎样最好地支持你？'

Or have you felt like this before? Like, when we ask expansive questions, this is when we learn about people. And another thing that you can do that is so helpful when you want to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain and even with your sister, you can always say, how can I best support you right now?

大家好，我是艾德·赫尔姆斯，欢迎回到《一团糟》——我的关于历史上重大失误的播客。新一季里，我们每期都会带来一个新的'一团糟'故事。

Hey. It's Ed Helms, and welcome back to SNAFU, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new SNAFU every single episode.

32枚核武器丢失？你会觉得，等等，停一下，什么？没错。

32 lost nuclear weapons? You're like, wait. Stop. What? Yeah.

厄尼·沙克尔顿听起来像是个七十年代可靠的篮球运动员，那时他们还戴着护膝。是的，这将充满历史、幽默和众多嘉宾。了不起的保罗·希尔。

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid seventies basketball player. Who still wore knee pads. Yes. It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer

让我感觉很好。

made me feel good.

我想说，哇哦，安吉拉和珍娜，你们能来我太兴奋了。

I'm like, oh, wow. Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

对你来说，这样温和地加入节目感觉如何？

What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?

抱歉，珍娜，今天由我来提问。

Sorry, Jenna. I'll be asking the questions today.

我忘了我们是在录谁的播客了。

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

尼克·克罗尔，我希望这个故事足够精彩，能让你放下手中的三明治。那么让我们一起来看看进展如何。在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方，收听由艾德·赫尔姆斯主持的《SNAFU》第四季。

Nick Kroll, I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's let's let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of snafu with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你知道最阴凉的地方总是这里。《合理吐槽》第六季播客由吉赛尔·布莱恩和罗宾·迪克森主持，每周一更新。作为《波托马克娇妻》的创始成员，我们将为你带来所有你能承受的笑料、戏剧和现实新闻。你知道我们从不保留，所以每周一和我们一起合理或毒舌吧。我正走在社区里散步。

You know the shade is always shadiest right here. Season six of the podcast, reasonably shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday. As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle. And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday. I was going through a walk in my neighborhood.

嗯。突然，我看到某户人家旁边立着个巨大的牌子。K。那个牌子写着：我的邻居是个事儿精。

Mhmm. Out of the blue, I see this huge sign next to somebody's house. K. The sign Yeah. Says, my neighbor is a Karen.

不可能。我笑死了。我心想，我必须知道真相。你在撒谎。超级大的牌子，大家。

No way. I died laughing. I'm like, I have to know. You are lying. Humongous, y'all.

他们可真是闲得慌。在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方，收听来自黑人效应播客网络的《合理吐槽》。

They had some time on their hands. Listen to reasonably shady from the black effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到《解码女性健康》。我是伊丽莎白·波因特医生，纽约市阿德里亚健康研究所女性健康与妇科主任。在本节目中，我将与顶尖研究人员和临床医生对话，解答你们迫切的问题，并将关于女性健康和中年的信息直接带给大家。

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.

百分之百的女性都会经历更年期。这对我们的生活质量可能是场煎熬。但即便这是自然现象，我们为何要默默忍受？

A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life. But even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?

人们常提到的症状类型是忘性大，我以前从不会忘记事情。他们担心两点：一是自己是否患了痴呆症，二是自己是否有注意力缺陷多动症（ADHD）？

The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything, I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one, they have dementia and the other one is do I have ADHD?

大麻和大麻素在改善睡眠、减轻疼痛、提升情绪以及提高日常生活质量方面展现出前所未有的潜力。

There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood and also to have better day to day life.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您当前使用的任何平台收听《解码女性健康》节目，由Elizabeth Poynter医生主讲。

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.

我是伊娃·朗格利亚。我是梅塔戈梅斯约翰。在我们的播客《渴求历史》中，我们将最爱的两样东西——美食与历史——融合在一起。

I'm Eva Longoria. And I'm Maytagomesjohn. And on our podcast, Hungry for History, we mix two of our favorite things, food and history.

古雅典人曾将名字刻在牡蛎壳上进行投票，他们称之为'陶片放逐'。所以英语中'ostracized'（排斥）这个词其实与'牡蛎'同源。真的假的！

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells, and they called these ostracon to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster. No way.

让陶片放逐重现吧。因为我们节目氛围很轻松，总有朋友来串门。

Bring back the Ostercon. And because we've got a very kind of vibe on our show, friends always stop by.

几乎每一个进入这一领域的

Pretty much every entry into this side of

这颗星球穿越了不。那个美国人。

the planet was through the No. The American.

不。那个美国人。埃尔

No. The American. El

墨西哥的加福。直到永远。

Garfo de Mexico. Forever and ever.

墨西哥在这一刻的进步程度让我震惊。他们进行了土地改革。他们拥有劳工权利。他们享有教育权利。

It blows me away how progressive Mexico was in this in this moment. They had land reform. They had labor rights. They had education rights.

芥菜籽对古埃及人来说非常珍贵，他们常将其放入墓中以备来世使用。

Mustard seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they used to place them in their tombs for the afterlife.

收听《渴望历史》作为My Cultura播客网络的一部分，可在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方找到。

Listen to hungry for history as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

当你想给出建议或不确定某人是否痛苦时，即使是对你姐姐，你总可以说：我现在怎样才能最好地支持你？

When you want to give advice or you're not sure someone's in pain, and even with your sister, you can always say, how can I best support you right now?

这又回到了相互依赖关系的核心基础。你不再纵容他们，不再让他们视你为摇钱树，或是能替他们解决问题、为他们规划一切的人。就像你说的，这是自主权。自主权是一份无比美好的礼物——给予他人信任、自主权和信念。

And this comes back to the core foundation of codependency. You're not enabling them. You're no longer enabling them to see you as, I don't know, the cash cow or see you as the one who can fix it for them or the one who can plan for them. Like you said, you know, it's agency. Agency is a gorgeous, gorgeous gift to give someone trust, agency, faith.

还有你自己的。因为问题是，当我们对他人过度负责时，我们自己的内外生活都会受损。我们精疲力尽。你不可能永远这样下去。那些真正尝试过的人都知道。

And and your own. Because the thing is, when we feel overly responsible for others, our own lives, internal and external, suffer. We're exhausted. We're we're you can't do it forever. And people who do trust me.

我看到来我诊所治疗的女性，她们已步入六七十岁的人生阶段，她们说：听着，我完成了所有人生清单。我们有钱，我在多个董事会任职，孩子们都上了常春藤盟校。

I see women coming into my therapy practice in their sixth or seventh decade of life, and they're like, listen. I checked all the boxes. We have money. I'm on a bunch of boards. My kids all went to Ivy League schools.

这就是我应有的感受吗？因为说真的，感觉并不美好。她们只是说：内心很空虚。我说：是啊，因为根本没人真正了解你。

Is this how I'm supposed to feel? Because, wow, it's really not that awesome. And they're I've had they just say, like, it's empty. And I'm like, yeah. Because nobody freaking knows you.

你这一生都在按别人指点的路线打勾。总是为团队牺牲自己，对吧？永远自我奉献。结果没人真正认识你。

You literally built your whole life checking boxes that other people told you was the way to go. Always taking one for the team. Right? Always self sacrificing. No one even knows you.

这实在太不满足了。真是令人沮丧。所以我很高兴这个节目面向二十多岁的年轻人。因为如果你们现在开始改变，六十岁时就不会出现在我的诊室里。虽然那时我可能已经不在了——我都一百岁了。

It is so not satisfying. It is such a bummer. So I'm so happy that this show is for people in their twenties. Because if you guys start now, you won't be in my therapy office in your sixties. And I can't imagine I'll still be I'd be a 100.

所以我可能不会活到一百岁还在做治疗师。但你们明白吗？现在你们可以做很多事来理解真爱与真正支持的含义——即使在艰难时刻，在你迷茫时我也会陪着你。我会和你一起坚守战壕，共度让我不适的不确定性，因为我爱你。这才是奉献的真谛。

So I I I'm probably not gonna be still be a therapist in a 100. But do you know what I mean? Like, there's so much that you can do now to realize what real love and real support means that I'll hang with you even when it's hard and even when you don't know. I'll stay in the foxhole with you even through the uncertainty that makes me so uncomfortable because I love you. Because that's what devotion is.

爱的真谛在于，我会忍受自己的不适，以真正能安慰到你的方式给予慰藉，而不是让你觉得只是被我解决的一个问题。

That's what love is, is that I will tolerate my discomfort to comfort you in a real way doing something that makes you feel comforted, not makes you feel like a problem I just fixed.

我认为这是最美的结论。如此精妙的总结。再说一次，如果你能听到这里，很可能你也是二三十岁的年轻人。拥有这个平台和像你们这样的听众最美好之处在于，回想二十年前还没有这些资源时，那正是你们现在对话的一代人。希望随着时间的推移，我们能普及这些心理教育。

I think that is the most beautiful conclusion. Such a beautiful way to summarize it. And again, if you've made it this far, you are most likely as well someone in their twenties or maybe their thirties. I think that one of the most beautiful things about having this platform as well and having people like you on is that there I think about twenty years ago when there were were not these resources and though that's the generation that you now speak to. And hopefully as time goes on, we have this psychoeducation.

我们拥有这种自我认知水平，意味着你不会到了五六十岁还在困惑为何关系肤浅、为何感到精疲力竭、为何被控制欲折磨。所以即便当下需要直面问题，想想你还有多少时间可以重塑大脑，建立信任，培养健康的依赖，并戒除那些从童年、青少年或二十出头养成的不良习惯。

We have this level of self awareness that means that you're not going to be 50 or 60 and wondering why your relationships are shallow, why you feel so burnt out, why you feel so exhausted by your need for control. So even if it's confronting in this moment, think about how much time you now have ahead of you to really rewire your brain towards trust, towards healthy dependency, and to unlearn some of those maladaptive habits that you've picked up from childhood, from teenage years, from your early twenties.

没错。我为听众准备了一份超级特别的礼物，能帮助有共鸣的人。我制作了HFC工具包（高效能共生关系指南），只需访问terricole.com/hfc。里面包含'简化与减负'等课程指导。

Exactly. And I have a super special gift for your listeners that will help them if they identify with this. So I have an HFC toolkit for you. So you just go to terricole.com/hfc for high functioning codependent. And I'm I'm giving you some lessons in there, like simplify and do less.

包含视频和PDF资料。我提供了引导冥想'拒绝的力量'，并逐步指导你如何开始摆脱高效能共生关系的旅程。虽然不是照本宣科，但这份免费礼物能帮你迈出第一步。

It's like a video and a PDF. I'm giving you a guided meditation, the power of no meditation, and just walking you through things that you can do to start on this journey of recovering from high functioning codependency. Not to obviously, by the book too, but I figured I would give you a free gift to just to get you going.

我一定会去查看。请大家务必预购Terri的书。这次对话令人茅塞顿开，我预览后觉得精彩绝伦。坦白说，你写的内容是我见过独一无二的。

I'm gonna go check that out. And and please please preorder order Terri's book. This conversation has been so enlightening. I've already had a look through and it just looks marvelous. There is quite honestly nothing else like what you've written that I've come across.

确实没有同类作品——毕竟这个概念是你首创的。有时让我震惊的是，现在是2024年，竟需要有人大声说出这些，才让成千上万的人恍然大悟，更清晰地认识自我。本期节目描述会附上特里的免费礼物链接和书籍链接。特里，你真是位令人震撼的嘉宾。

Nothing else that well, this you created this term, so a lot of people do not yeah. And it's it's just mind blowing to me sometimes that, you know, it's 2024 and and it takes someone saying this out loud for thousands of people to come out of the woodwork and be able to identify themselves and understand themselves more. So there will be a link both to that free gift from Terry, thank you so much, and also the book in this episode description. Terry, you have been an amazing guest. Seriously mind blowing.

非常感谢你能来参加。我真的很喜欢这次讨论。

Thank you so much for coming on. I really loved this this discussion.

非常感谢邀请我。我正计划顺便过来——哦，你在澳大利亚对吧？

Thank you so much for having me. I'm planning to come by the way to oh, you're in Australia. Yeah?

我在澳大利亚，是的。

I'm in Australia. Yes.

对。我想到2025年，我已经做了一系列采访。有一群女性朋友一直说‘一定要来，我们要办活动’。所以无论如何，我想在2025年底前会来的。

Yeah. So I think in 2025, I've been doing a whole bunch of interviews. And I have this group of women who are like, please come. We're gonna do events. So, anyway, I think by the end of twenty twenty five, I'm coming.

所以我会为你而来的。

So I'm gonna come for you.

天啊！我一定前排到场。澳大利亚是个美丽的地方，众所周知。这也是我一直没离开的原因。

Oh my gosh. I will be there front row front row. And Australia is a beautiful place. Everyone knows. That's the reason I haven't left.

这里太美了。你一定会受到非常热烈的欢迎，这是肯定的。

It's so gorgeous. There'll be you'll get a you'll get a very warm reception. That's for sure.

太好了。非常感谢邀请我参加，我很感激你。

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.

当然。也非常感谢你们听到这里。一如既往，如果有节目建议想联系，或想分享对这期节目的想法，可以在That Psychology Podcast私信我。记得关注我们，如果觉得不错，请给我们五星好评。

Of course. And thank you so much for listening if you've made it this far. As always, if you have an episode suggestion, you wanna get in touch, you want to share your thoughts about this episode, you can DM me at That Psychology Podcast. Make sure you are following along. Give us a five star review if you, of course, feel cool to do so.

并分享给朋友。我已经想到三个朋友，他们会收到这期节目的链接和我的留言。下次见，注意安全，保持善良，善待自己，我们很快会再聊。

And share with a friend. I've already got three friends in mind who I think are going to be getting a link to this episode and their messages. So until next time, stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very, very soon.

我是伊娃·朗格利亚。

I'm Eva Longoria.

我是梅塔戈梅兹约翰。本周在我们的播客《渴望历史》中，我们将讨论牡蛎，还有米安比酋长做客节目。

And I'm Maytagomezjohan. And this week on our podcast, Hungry for History, we talk oysters plus the Miambi chief stops by.

如果你不喜欢牡蛎，

And if you are not an oyster lover,

就别跟我说话。

don't even talk to me.

古希腊雅典人曾将名字刻在牡蛎壳上，用以投票放逐政客。因此英语中'ostracized'（放逐）一词与'oyster'（牡蛎）有关联。

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster.

真的假的？快把陶片放逐法带回来。在iHeart广播应用、苹果播客或任何你收听节目的地方，订阅《历史饥渴》了解更多。

No way. Bring back the ostracon. Listen to hungry for history on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your

《波托马克的真实主妇》为你带来所有你能承受的笑料、戏剧和真人秀新闻。你知道我们从不保留，所以每周一加入我们，一起理性或八卦吧。在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你收听播客的地方，收听来自黑人效应播客网络的《合理八卦》。

of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle. And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday. Listen to reasonably shady from the black effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到Jenna World，我是Jenna Jameson。Vivid Video与《山谷》是一档关于成人电影产业历史的新播客。我是Molly Lambert，将带你开启一段狂野的成人电影之旅。我们比男性赚得更多，我们掌握话语权，这哪里是贬低？

Jenna World, Jenna Jameson, Vivid Video, and The Valley is a new podcast about the history of the adult film industry. I'm Molly Lambert, and I'll be your tour guide on a wild trip through adult films. We get paid more than the men. We call the shots. What way is that degrading?

这正是我们掌控自己人生的方式。在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你收听播客的地方，订阅《Jenna World》。

That's us taking hold of our life. Listen to GenoWorld on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是Danny Trejo，邀请你加入《暗夜传说：阴影故事集》，这是一部受拉丁美洲传说启发的现代恐怖故事选集。在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你收听播客的地方，收听《暗夜传说：阴影故事》。

Join me, Danny Trejo, in nocturnal tales from the shadows, an anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal, tales from the shadows on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是iHeart出品的播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.