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这是一档iHeart播客节目。
This is an iHeart podcast.
在《健康那些事》播客中，我们将解答所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。
On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.
我是医生。
I'm Doctor.
普里扬卡·沃利，拥有双委员会认证的医师资格。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达波鲁，喜剧演员，曾在凌晨三点搜索过‘我是不是得了坏血病？’的人。
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?
在我们的节目中，我们将以独特视角探讨健康话题，比如那期关于糖尿病的专题。
And on our show, we're talking about health in a different way, like our episode where we look at diabetes.
在美国，约50%的人群处于糖尿病前期状态。
In The United States, I mean, fifty percent of Americans are prediabetic.
二型糖尿病有多大的可预防性？
How preventable is type two?
非常高。
Extremely.
欢迎在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何播客平台收听《健康那些事》。
Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
铃儿响叮当。
Jingle bells.
铃儿响叮当。
Jingle bells.
一路铃声响。
Jingle all the way.
哟。
Yo.
哟。
Yo.
哟。
Yo.
哟。
Yo.
我们能先过感恩节吗？
Can we get to Thanksgiving first?
我饿了。
I'm hungry.
大家最近怎么样？
What's up, y'all?
我是卡迪姆。
It's Kadim.
还有德瓦尔，《从此以后艾利斯》播客的主持人。
And Deval, the host of the Ellis Ever After podcast.
这个假期季
This holiday season
屏蔽喧嚣，专注收听《从此以后艾利斯》。
Tune out the noise and tune in to Ellis Ever After.
在《从此以后艾利斯》中，我们与团队真诚探讨家庭、爱情与婚姻，
On Ellis Ever After, we get real with our crew about family, love and marriage,
以及介于其间的所有话题。
and everything else in between.
请在iHeart——美国排名第一的播客网络上收听《从此以后艾利斯》。
Listen to Ellis Ever After on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.
立即关注《从此以后艾利斯》，并通过免费的iHeartRadio应用开始收听。
Follow Ellis Ever After and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.
欢迎收听《解码女性健康》
Welcome to decoding women's health.
我是伊丽莎白·波因特医生，纽约市阿德里亚健康研究院女性健康与妇科主任
I'm doctor Elizabeth Pointer, chair of women's health and gyne Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.
我将与顶尖研究人员和临床医生对话，为您直接带来中年女性健康的重要资讯
I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.
百分之百的女性都会经历更年期
A hundred percent of women go through menopause.
即使这是自然现象，我们为何要默默忍受？
Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您常用的播客平台收听伊丽莎白·波因特医生主持的《解码女性健康》
Listen to decoding women's health with doctor Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
亚特兰大是一种精神
Atlanta is a spirit.
它不仅仅是一座城市
It's not just a city.
这里是克朗克在西区俱乐部诞生的地方
It's where Cronk was born in a club in the West End.
在World Star之前，这里是五月的天地
Before World Star, it was May.
在这里，牧师会爆红网络，传统黑人大学的学生将心碎转化为重生，梦想家把好莱坞带到南方，而实干家们用愿景创造黑人财富
Where preachers go viral and students at the HBCU turned heartbreak into resurrection, where dreamers brought Hollywood to the South and hustlers bring their visions to create black wealth.
没人会急着和你确立关系
Nobody's rushing into relationships with you.
我是大鲁伯
I'm Big Rube.
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您常用的播客平台收听《亚特兰大之音》
Listen to Atlanta Ears on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
我是伊娃·朗格利亚。
I'm Eva Longoria.
我是梅塔戈梅兹·霍胡安，本周在我们的播客《历史之饥》中，我们将讨论牡蛎，还有面壁族首领的到访。
And I'm Maytagomezjojuan, and this week on our podcast, Hungry for History, we talk oysters plus the Mianbi chief stops by.
如果你不喜欢牡蛎，那就别跟我说话。
And if you're not an oyster lover, don't even talk to me.
古雅典人曾在牡蛎壳上刻名字来投票放逐政客。
Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile.
所以我们英语中'ostracized'（放逐）这个词与'oyster'（牡蛎）有关。
So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster.
不
No
可能。
way.
把牡蛎大会带回来吧。
Bring back the Ostercon.
请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或你获取播客的任何平台收听《历史之饥》。
Listen to Hungry for History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
我是杰玛·斯派克，欢迎回到《二十几岁的心理学》，这个播客探讨我们二十多岁时最重大的变化、时刻和转折，以及它们对我们心理的意义。
I'm Gemma Spike, and welcome back to the psychology of your twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
欢迎回到节目。
Welcome back to the show.
欢迎回到播客。
Welcome back to the podcast.
新听众、老听众们，无论你们身处世界何处，非常高兴能再次与你们相聚新一期节目，我们将继续解析二十多岁的心理世界。
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our twenties.
今天，我们为大家准备了一期听众点播的节目。
Today, we have a listener requested episode for you all.
在之前关于有毒友谊的节目播出后，确实有几位听众写信和私信我提到这个话题。
One that a couple of you actually wrote in and DM'd me about after our toxic friendship episode.
在那期节目中，我们讨论过'受害者型朋友'。
In that episode, we talked about the victim friend.
这引发了很多关于受害者心态的讨论——我们在那期谈到的广义受害者心态，以及心理学对总是扮演受害者的人有何实际解读。
And it brought up a lot of questions about the victim the broader victim mentality that we spoke about in that episode and what psychology actually says about people who always play the victim.
关于这个概念、这种现象、这种心理，我深入研究了大量相关资料。
I fell down such a rabbit hole of information about this, about this idea, this phenomena, this concept.
所以今天，我们就来探讨这个话题。
And so today, here we are.
我们将深入剖析受害者心态背后的复杂心理机制。
We are gonna dive into the complex psychology behind the victim mentality.
首先我要特别说明一点。
Now I want to start with a very important note.
当谈论受害者心态时，我绝不是要淡化那些真正遭受过虐待、系统性不公、创伤或失去的人的真实经历。
When I talk about the victim mentality, I'm not trying to minimize the experiences of people who have genuinely been victimized by abuse, by systemic injustice, by trauma, by loss.
如果你经历过让你身心长期处于高度警觉状态的事情，如果生活经验告诉你坏事总是更频繁地发生在你身上——你并不是我们今天要讨论的问题所在。
If you have been through something that's left your body and your brain on constant high alert, if you've learned through experiences that bad things do happen to you more than others, You are not a problem or the problem that we are unpacking today.
我们要探讨的是一种行为模式或心理习惯：有些人会把中性事件或不如意的情况，转化为博取他人同情以谋取私利的手段。
What we are talking about is a pattern of behavior or a psychological habit whereby people turn neutral situations or situations that simply don't go their way into something that they use to gain sympathy from others for their own gain.
我们要讨论的是这样一种情况：人们学会利用我们天然的同情心，以一种带有操控性、令人不适、缺乏自我认知的方式行事。
We're talking about situations where people learn how to turn out natural sympathy against us in a way that feels manipulative, icky, wrong, in a way that really lacks self awareness.
所以今天真正要探讨的问题是：如何应对这类人——无论是朋友、家人还是同事？
So the question we're really asking today is how do we navigate these kinds of people, whether they're friends, family members, colleagues?
我们该如何引导那些真心认为事事不顺、人人针对自己、自己是世上最不幸之人？他们为何会变成这样？
How do we navigate people who truly do believe that everything goes wrong for them, that everybody is out to get them, that they are the unluckiest person in the world, and why are they the way they are?
是什么造就了他们这样的心态？
What made them this way?
他们对自己行为是否有真正的认知？
Do they genuinely have any clarity about what they're doing?
那么，该如何应对才能避免总是成为众矢之的？
And, yeah, how do you go about it so that you aren't always in the firing line?
闲话少说，我对本期节目充满期待。
Without further ado, I am so excited for this episode.
让我们深入探讨受害者心理背后的心理学原理。
Let's get into the psychology behind the victim mentality.
首先，心理学领域如何描述这种现象？
First of all, how does the field of psychology talk about this phenomena?
心理学中的'受害者心态'术语，指的是一个人习惯性认为自己总是他人或命运负面行为的受害者，即便证据表明事实并非如此。
So in psychology the term victim mentality or victim mindset, it's also known as that, it basically refers to a habitual pattern of thought in which a person consistently perceives themselves as a victim of the negative actions of others or of fate.
即使证据显示情况恰恰相反。
Even when the evidence suggests otherwise.
这句话的后半部分才是关键所在。
That second half of that statement is the most crucial part.
证据表明事实并非如此。
The evidence suggests otherwise.
正如2020年一项研究指出：在所有情境中，即便结果不同，这类人仍会寻找自己是被害者的解释。
And as '1 2020 study put it, across all situations, even when outcomes differ, these people will still seek out an explanation where they are the victim.
这是所有情境中唯一不变的常量。
That is the one constant in every situation.
即使情况变化，即便证据对他们不利，哪怕人们明确告知'你错了'，他们始终认定自己是被辜负的一方。
They are always the one who is wronged even when things change, even again when the evidence is stacked up against them, even when people tell them, No, you're wrong.
受害者心态实际上被认为是一种人格特质。
The victim mentality is actually believed to be somewhat of a personality trait.
要知道，无论实际情况如何，我们都有能力将自己视为或多或少是受害者，但具有高度受害者特质的人往往会将中性或模棱两可的情况或事件解读为充满敌意。
We all have the capacity to see ourselves as less or more as a victim you know regardless of actual circumstances but people high in this victim trait tend to again interpret neutral or ambiguous situations or events as hostile.
他们倾向于纠结于不公平待遇，比其他人更长时间地反复思考，并且真的很难放下发生的事情，这意味着任何可能证实这种心态的情况都会被他们抓住不放，而那些不能证实的情况则不会。
They tend to dwell on unfair treatment and ruminate longer than others and they really struggle to move past what happened meaning that everything that maybe does prove this mentality or does prove this state of mind for them gets held onto longer than any situations that don't.
并不是说他们在撒谎。
It isn't that they're lying.
他们真的相信整个世界都在与他们作对。
They do truly believe that the world is against them.
他们正遭受一种错觉的折磨，一种受害妄想的错觉。
They're suffering from a delusion, a delusion of victimhood.
我以前有个同事就是这样。
I used to have a coworker just like this.
我不打算透露更多细节，因为他们现在还在那里工作，但每当有人获得晋升时，他们总是会把事情变成关于自己从未遇到过好事的抱怨。
I'm not going to give any more specifics than that because they do still work at this place but anytime like somebody got a promotion they would always turn it into about into about like how nothing good ever happened to them.
每当有人给出反馈，他们就是在欺负她，联合起来针对她。
Anytime someone gave feedback they were bullying her, they were ganging up on her.
有一次，我们的一位同事赢了那种汽车抽奖——你知道超市或商场有时会举办的那种活动吗？你可以赢一辆起亚嘉年华或铃木雨燕之类的。
One time, one of our coworkers won do you know those car giveaways that they sometimes have at supermarkets or, like, malls where you can, like, win a Kia Carnival or, like, win a Suzuki Swift?
有一次，我们的一位同事赢了其中一项比赛。
Like, one time, one of our coworkers won one of those competitions.
我记得她没完没了地说，如果她赢了那辆车会怎样——当然她不可能赢，而且可能根本就行不通。
And I remember she went on and on about how, you know, if she'd won the car, which of course she wouldn't, probably, you know, wouldn't even work anyways.
我打赌那肯定是个骗局。
I bet it would be a scam.
她赢得汽车这个现实根本不存在，然而她却把一个没有发生、不真实的情况，变成了自己仍然是受害者的情境。
This reality of her having won the car didn't even exist, and yet she had turned a situation that had not happened, that was not real, into one in which she was still the victim.
点赞了，但这甚至不是她的生活或她的故事。
Like and it wasn't even her life or her story.
我记得当时发生的事，就像，哦，我真的为你感到难过。
And I remember, like, that happening and being like, oh, I I actually feel really bad for you.
因为想象一下，所有可能的场景，甚至那些尚未发生的，最终都会以同样的方式结束，而你甚至没有给它们机会来证明你错了。
Because imagine, like, every possible scenario, even those that haven't occurred, still end up in the same way when you haven't even given them the opportunity to prove you otherwise.
这将是一种相当可悲的生活方式。
It would be a pretty sad way to live.
有几个关键迹象表明你正在打交道的人有这种受害者心态。
There are a few key signs that someone you're dealing with has this kind of victim mindset.
第一点，也是最重要的一点，他们会将责任外化。
Number one, the biggest of them all, they externalize blame.
他们把遇到的困难、过错和错误完全归咎于他人、命运或运气不好。
They attribute their struggles, their faults, their mistakes entirely to others or to fate or to bad luck.
心理学中有一种观点认为，人们要么具有内控点，要么具有外控点。
In psychology, there is this idea that people either have an internal or external locus of control.
这一理论是由心理学家朱利安·罗特在20世纪50年代提出的。
This was a theory that was developed in the nineteen fifties by a psychologist called Julian Rotter.
基本上他的观点是，如果你有外控点，你会认为自己的生活受制于你无法控制的外部力量。
Basically what he said is, if you have an external locus, you see your life as being controlled by outside forces that you have no control over.
所以你不必费心去改变任何事情，因为这些力量总会占上风。
So you shouldn't bother trying to change anything because these forces are always going to win.
另一方面，如果你有内控点，你基本上相信运气是自己创造的。
If on the other hand you have an internal locus of control, you basically believe that you make your own luck.
你可以影响自己的生活。
You can influence your life.
你大概能猜到受害者倾向于哪种心态。
You can kind of guess which mentality the victim tends to have.
外部归因。
The external locus.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么他们从不承担责任。
So that is why blame is never something that they take on.
总是归咎于外部世界、外部环境，那些他们无力掌控的事物。
It's always about the outside world, outside circumstances, things that they have no capacity to control.
第二点可能会让你惊讶——这种心态往往会让当事人产生道德优越感，并以此行事。
Number two, and this might surprise you but this mentality often makes the person feel morally superior and act that way as well.
在我早前提到的2020年论文中，研究者发现受害情结严重的人往往表现出高度的道德精英主义，即认为自己受到不公对待因而占据道德高地。
So in that 2020 paper I mentioned earlier, researchers actually found that people high in victimhood also show high levels of moral elitism which is basically a belief that they've been wronged and as such they have a moral high ground.
这会让他们觉得理应获得更多生活优待、更多同情、更多宽容，甚至认为自己有权报复，因为发生在他们身上的事使其自认正义。
This can make them feel as though they're entitled to more from life, they're entitled to more sympathy, they're entitled to more leniency, they are allowed to retaliate because they see themselves as fundamentally righteous because of what has happened to them.
在日常生活中，这种表现会是什么样呢？
In daily life, you know, how might this look?
可能表现为有人总说'我要从超市偷东西，因为我小时候从来得不到什么'。
It might look like someone who constantly is like, well, you know, I'm gonna steal that thing from the grocery store because when I was a kid, like, I never I never got much.
或是'你必须来救我'。
Or, you know, I expect you to rescue me.
'我怎么可能为这种情况负责'。
Like, I can't possibly be responsible for dealing with this situation.
或是抗拒做出改变的努力。
Or they resist taking steps towards change.
他们可能声称需要帮助，但必须按他们的条件来。
They might say that they want help, but it has to be on their terms.
每次你提出建议时，他们通常都会拒绝。
And anytime you try to suggest something, they normally reject it.
他们觉得你理应给予更多。
They feel entitled for more from you.
他们认为你的资源、时间和精力都该归他们所有，因为他们的不幸和困境让他们觉得这是应得的。
They feel entitled to your resources, your time, your energy because it's owed to them by their bad luck, by their bad circumstances.
第三点表明某人具有受害者心态，他们往往也非常自我中心。
The third sign someone has a victim mindset, they are also very self centered.
他们总是把话题拉回到自己身上。
They constantly bring the conversation back to them.
他们对别人的痛苦缺乏同理心。
They lack empathy for other people's suffering.
事实上，他们把别人的痛苦视为妨碍自己诉苦的障碍。
In fact, they see other people's suffering as an inconvenience to their own ability to talk about their suffering.
他们还倾向于夸大其词，甚至编造经历来博取关注。
And they also really do tend to dramatize, overstate, maybe even lie about experiences or events that they've been through in order to get attention.
虽然他们认为世界掌控着他们的命运，但他们仍有着强烈的自我关注倾向，思考自己远多于他人——这本身无可厚非，毕竟人应该把自己放在首位，但对受害者心态者而言，这是唯一优先级。
Although they see the world as controlling their fate, they also still have a lot and a deep sense of self focus and they tend to think about themselves more than other people do and more than they think about others which is honestly fine like you really you should be your number one priority But for people with the victim mindset, it's the only priority.
这就引出了一个重要问题。
Now this brings us to a big question.
人们为何会变成这样？
How do people end up like this?
为何两个童年相同的人会走向不同结局？
How do two people who have the same childhoods end up like this?
两个在相同城市、国家、朋友圈长大的人，为何一个能承担责任，另一个却不能？
How do two people who grew up in the same city, country, circle of friends and, you know, how do they end up so that one of them takes accountability, one of them doesn't?
我们中有些人能享受成功喜悦。
Some of us are able to celebrate successes.
另一些人却只会抱怨命运不公。
Other people can't stop complaining about how hard done by they are.
核心真相，或许有点令人不适的是，它通常始于一种保护机制。
The core truth, and maybe one that's a little bit uncomfortable, is that it usually starts as protection.
本质上，受害者心态反映了一种习得性无助的心理状态。
At its core, the victim mentality reflects a psychological position of learned helplessness.
这一概念最初由马丁·塞利格曼在1970年代提出。
This was a concept first proposed by Martin Silkman in the 1970s.
我们之前在播客中多次提到过，关键是他发现：当人们即使被明确给予逃离困境的途径或机会时，仍因习得'做什么都无济于事'而不会采取行动。
We've mentioned it on the podcast a few times before but essentially what he found was that when people don't feel like they can escape their bad circumstances even when they are clearly given a route or an opportunity to do so they still won't take it because they have learnt that nothing they do matters.
他们无法掌控，因为过去就从未掌控过。
They have no control because in the past they've had no control.
让我说清楚。
Let me be clear.
对很多人而言，这不是伪装，甚至不一定是自觉行为，而往往是功能性冻结反应。
For many people, it's not an act, it's not even necessarily a conscious behaviour instead it's actually you know often a functional freeze response.
这是大脑在长期无助、长期创伤、长期否定后形成的自我保护机制。
A way the brain protects itself after prolonged helplessness, prolonged trauma, prolonged invalidation.
从创伤视角看，若我们怀有同理心，就能理解：当某人长期遭受虐待、情感忽视或人际关系/体制的反复失败时，其神经系统会习得'主观能动毫无意义'。
Through a trauma lens, if we're having sympathy for these people, it makes a lot of sense when someone experiences chronic maltreatment, when they've experienced emotional abuse or neglect or repeated failure from their relationships in some form or from the system, their nervous system learns that agency is pointless.
此时身体会进入创伤治疗师斯蒂芬·波吉斯所称的背侧迷走神经状态。
And the body goes into what trauma therapist Stephen Porges calls the dorsal vagal state.
这本质上是种关闭、解离、冻结的状态，大脑持续传递的信息是：你不安全且无能为力。
It's basically a state of shutdown, dissociation, freeze and in that state the message the brain is sending constantly is you're not safe and you can't do anything about it.
不要反抗，不要行动，不要逃离。
Don't fight, don't move, don't run away.
久而久之，这种生理反应会固化成心理认同——即'我是厄运缠身之人，对此无能为力'。
Over time the physiological reaction can kind of crystallize into a psychological identity AKA I'm the person who bad things happen to, I can't do anything about this.
故事在这里开始变得更具层次。
Here's where the story gets a little bit more layered.
是的，大多数情况下它最初确实是一种保护策略，但也可能带有操控性质。
Yes, it does start as a protective strategy most of the time but it can also take on manipulative qualities.
尤其是当它发展成我们所说的隐性自恋时。
Especially when it develops into what we call covert narcissism.
隐性自恋，又称脆弱型自恋，是自恋型人格障碍或自恋人格模式的一个亚型，它隐藏在不安、羞耻和自我怜悯背后，而非傲慢之中。
Covert narcissism, it's also called vulnerable narcissism, is a subtype of narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic personality patterns that hides behind insecurity, shame and self pity rather than arrogance.
因此，与那些要求崇拜的经典浮夸型自恋者不同，隐性自恋者寻求的是有人能拯救他们，并通过他们的痛苦给予他们认可和安慰。
So unlike the classic grandiose narcissist who demands admiration, the covert narcissist seeks someone to rescue them and give them validation and reassurance through their suffering.
2024年《社会与人格心理学杂志》发表的一篇论文发现，隐性自恋者并不一定主导整个场合。
There was a 2024 paper published in the Journal of Social and Personality Psychology and it found that covert narcissists don't necessarily dominate rooms.
他们不会强势出场，不需要人们认为他们是最棒的，但他们确实试图从他人那里引发关怀反应，这种反应最终不可避免地主导了整个空间的情绪基调。
They don't come in hot, they don't need people to think they're the best, but they do seek to elicit a caring response from others that actually inevitably ends up dominating the emotional undertones of a space.
他们的痛苦成为了维持对情境、人际关系以及他人看法的控制手段。
Their pain becomes the currency through which they maintain control over a situation, over their relationships, over how other people see them.
由于共情是人类最强烈的本能之一，这种策略在一段时间内往往非常有效。
Now because empathy is one of the strongest human instincts This strategy often works really well for a while.
人们会争先恐后地提供帮助。
People rush in to help.
我们想要安慰这个人，想要给予他们 reassurance。
We want to comfort, we want to reassure this person.
我们不希望他们继续受苦。
We want we don't want them to suffer.
而这个人喜欢这样，因为这感觉确实很棒。
And this person loves that because it does feel amazing.
但很快，这些关系就会开始变得单向。
But soon, those relationships do start to feel one way.
它们开始变得像交易。
They start to feel like transactions.
当然，自然而然地，人们会逐渐疏远。
And of course, naturally, people are gonna drop off.
人们会离开那个人的生活。
People are gonna leave that person's life.
这实际上强化了他们扮演受害者的企图和自我认知——认为自己是被抛弃的人，是不被爱的人。
That actually increases their attempts for victimhood and their idea of themselves as a victim, as somebody that people leave, as somebody that people can't love.
而不是将这种行为追溯到他们正在展现的行为模式上。
Not tracing it back to this pattern of behavior that they're exhibiting.
但值得注意的是，即便是操纵性的受害者心态，最初也往往源于真实的痛苦。
Still, it's important to note that even manipulative forms of victimhood usually began as legitimate pain.
区别在于这些人从未学会自我安抚或调节，于是将责任外化给他人。
The difference is that the person never learnt how to self soothe or regulate So they just externalize that responsibility onto others.
他们学会了无助比强势更能达到目的。
They learnt that helplessness gets them what assertiveness never did.
而这种被动状态，再次被早期经历所强化。
And this passive state is again, it is reinforced by early experiences.
早期不被倾听的经历让他们发现：当你刻意表现无力，当你夸大痛苦或召唤他人安慰时，反而能获得一直渴望的那种关爱。
Early experiences of not being heard but noticing that actually when you play up the powerlessness, when you exacerbate or you know really call in people to try and comfort you and help you, you get the same kind of love that you probably wanted all along.
最终，理解这一点能让我们同时持有两种真相：
Ultimately, think knowing this helps us hold kind of two truths at the at the same time.
有些人以受害者心态生活，是因为生活教会他们如此。
Some people live from a place of victimhood because life taught them to.
另一些人利用受害者身份，是因为它能带来权力。
Others use victimhood because it gives them power.
两者都需要同情。
Both need compassion.
我认为只有前者才能真正治愈。
I think that the sentiment is that only one of them can truly heal.
第一种情况纯粹是因为缺乏爱，以及缺乏对自己生活的掌控感。
The the first kind where it's really just because of an absence of love and an absence of feeling like they can take control of their life.
这种状况是人们可以克服的。
That one is something people can get over.
当他们进入这种状态——认为这实际上是从他人和情境中获取所需的有效手段时，时间一长就很难（甚至几乎不可能）回头了。
When they have crossed into the state of like, this is actually a really great way to get what I want from people and get what I want from situations, it's a lot harder, if not almost impossible after a while, to come back from that.
我相信听到这里，你脑海中可能已经浮现出某个符合这些描述的人。
Now I'm sure at this point, if you've listened this far, you probably have somebody in mind who you are thinking of.
可能是你的母亲。
Maybe it's your mother.
可能是你的朋友。
Maybe it's a friend of yours.
可能是某个家庭成员。
Maybe it's a family member.
可能是同事，甚至可能是你的伴侣——关键在于你虽然同情这个人，
Maybe it's, like, a colleague, maybe it's even your partner and the thing is is that you can have sympathy for this person.
你能理解这种心态源于某种深层次的痛苦，但仍会因其对你的影响感到极度沮丧。
You can understand that this mindset was born from a deep pain and still be deeply frustrated by how it impacts you.
接下来我想重点讨论：当这类消耗我们能量的人出现在生活中时，我们该怎么办？
So what I really want to talk about next is what do we do when this kind of individual is in our life sucking energy from us?
如何应对才能避免强化他们的受害者心态？
How do we handle this in a way that doesn't just further determine or prove their victimhood to them?
广告之后我们将继续探讨这个问题。
We're gonna talk about that after this short break.
请别走开。
Stay with us.
在《健康那些事儿》播客中，我们正在解答所有让你夜不能寐的健康疑问。
On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.
是的，我是医生。
Yes, I'm Doctor.
普里扬卡·沃利，双委员会认证医师。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达博鲁，一名喜剧演员，曾经在凌晨三点搜索过'我是不是得了坏血病？'
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?
在《健康那些事》节目中，我们将以不同视角探讨健康话题。
On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.
这不仅关乎我们能做些什么来改善健康。
It's not only about what we can do to improve our health.
更关乎我们的健康状况如何反映我们的生活方式。
But also what our health says about us and the way we're living.
比如我们那期讨论糖尿病的节目。
Like our episode where we look at diabetes.
在美国，约50%的成年人处于糖尿病前期。
In The United States, I mean, fifty percent of Americans are prediabetic.
二型糖尿病有多大的预防空间？
How preventable is type two?
非常大。
Extremely.
或者我们对芒果神奇功效的深度分析。
Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are.
噢，很难向世界其他地方解释——你们觉得自己的芒果不错，但你们根本不知道真正的芒果有多棒。
Oh, it's hard to explain to rest of the world that you like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but, like, you don't even know.
你们不知道。
You don't know.
你们不知道。
You don't know.
这将是一段有趣的旅程，敬请收听。
It's going to be a fun ride, so tune in.
你可以在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你收听播客的地方获取健康资讯。
Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨，凯尔。
Hi, Kyle.
你能草拟一份
Could you draw up a
快速文档，包含一页基础商业计划，用谷歌文档格式，
quick document with a basic business plan, just one page, as a Google Doc,
然后把链接发给我吗？
and send me the link?
谢谢。
Thanks.
嘿，刚为你草拟好那份一页纸的快速商业计划。
Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.
这是链接。
Here's the link.
但根本没有链接。
But there was no link.
也没有商业计划。
There was no business plan.
这不是他的错。
It's not his fault.
我还没给凯尔编程让他具备这个能力。
I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet.
我叫埃德蒙·拉特利夫。
My name is Edmund Ratliff.
在听完OpenAI首席执行官Sam Altman多次提及这类观点后，我决定创造我的AI合伙人Kyle。
I decided to create Kyle, my AI cofounder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
有人设赌局押注第一年就会出现单人运营的十亿美元公司，这在没有AI的时代简直难以想象，但现在即将成为现实。
There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company, which would have been, like, unimaginable without AI, and now it will happen.
我开始思考，我是否
I got to thinking, could I
能成为那个人？
be that one person?
我之前曾为获奖播客《壳牌游戏》制作过AI智能体。
I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game.
本季《壳牌游戏》中，我试图用虚拟员工运营一家真实公司来开发实体产品。
This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.
哦，嘿，Evan。
Oh, hey, Evan.
很高兴
Good to
你能加入我们。
have you join us.
我发现了些关于中小型企业采用AI智能体的有趣数据。
I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.
请在iHeartRadio应用或任意播客平台收听《壳牌游戏》。
Listen to Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
你知道最阴凉的地方永远在这里。
You know the shade is always shadiest right here.
第六季播客《适度阴凉》由Giselle Bryan和Robin Dixon主持，每周一更新。
Season six of the podcast, reasonably shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday.
作为《波托马克娇妻》创始成员，我们将为你带来欢笑、戏剧和现实新闻的全方位体验。
As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle.
你知道我们从不藏着掖着，所以每周一都来和我们一起理性或鬼祟吧。
And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday.
我正在社区里散步。
I was going through a walk in my neighborhood.
嗯。
Mhmm.
突然，我看到有人房子旁边立着个巨大的牌子。
Out of the blue, I see this huge sign next to somebody's house.
好。
K.
牌子上
The sign
是啊。
Yeah.
写着：我的邻居是个事儿精。
Says, my neighbor is a Karen.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no way.
我笑死了。
I died laughing.
我当时就想，我必须知道你在撒谎。
I'm like, I have to know You are lying.
超大个的，
Humongous,
各位。
y'all.
他们可真是闲得慌。
They had some time on their hands.
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您获取播客的任何平台收听Black Effect播客网络出品的《Reasonably Shady》。
Listen to Reasonably Shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
欢迎收听《解码女性健康》。
Welcome to Decoding Women's Health.
我是医生。
I'm Doctor.
伊丽莎白·波因特，纽约市阿德里亚健康研究所女性健康与妇科主任。
Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.
在本节目中，我将与顶尖研究人员和临床医生对话，解答您最关切的问题，并为您直接带来关于女性健康与中年生活的专业资讯。
On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.
百分之百的女性都会经历更年期。
A hundred percent of women go through menopause.
这可能会严重影响我们的生活质量。
It can be such a struggle for our quality of life.
但即便这是自然现象，我们为何要默默忍受？
But even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?
人们常说的症状包括健忘——而我过去从不健忘。
The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything, I never used to forget things.
她们一方面担心自己患有痴呆症，另一方面又在怀疑是否患有多动症。
They're concerned that one, they have dementia and the other one is do I have ADHD?
大麻素在改善睡眠、缓解疼痛、调节情绪以及提升日常生活质量方面展现出前所未有的潜力。
There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day to day life.
请收听《解码女性健康》节目，我是医生。
Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Doctor.
伊丽莎白·波因特，您可通过iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或当前使用的任何平台收听。
Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.
铃儿响叮当。
Jingle bells.
铃儿响叮当。
Jingle bells.
一路响叮当。
Jingle all the way.
哟。
Yo.
哟。
Yo.
哟。
Yo.
我们能先
Can we get
过个感恩节吗？
a Thanksgiving first?
我饿了。
I'm hungry.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, y'all.
我是卡迪恩。
It's Kadeen.
还有德瓦尔。
And DeVal.
我们是《艾拉的童话之后》播客的主持人。
The hosts of Ella's ever after podcast.
这个假期季，无论你是在为家人下厨，还是出门给孩子买礼物
This holiday season, whether you're cooking for the family, out buying gifts for the kids
或是堵在节日车流中，不妨听听
Or crowded in holiday traffic, tune out the
静下心来收听《埃利斯童话之后》
noise and tune in to Ellis Ever After.
在《埃利斯童话之后》节目中，我们与团队真诚探讨家庭话题
On Ellis Ever After, we get real with our crew about family.
如果你觉得自己很失败，那很可能因为你是个好家长
If you feeling like you're failing, that's probably because you're a good parent.
友谊
Friendship.
要谨慎选择你摄入的
Be careful what you put
物质
in your body.
活动你的身体，像爱车那样爱它
Move your body and love it the way you love them cars,
那栋房子、那些衣服、那些鞋子
that house, them clothes, them shoes.
那些早午餐
Them brunches.
爱自己
Love yourself.
那些早午餐
Them brunches.
爱情与婚姻
Love and marriage.
知道我现在觉得什么最吸引人吗？
You know what's become attractive to me?
这是因为我进行了自我修正，而且
And it's because I've self corrected, and
我想我给自己排毒了。
I guess I detoxified myself.
责任感。
Accountability.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
简直太迷人了。
Is mad attractive.
对我而言极具吸引力，中间的一切都如此。
So attractive to me and everything else in between.
我已经讲过我最尴尬的时刻
I've told my most embarrassing moment
就在这个播客上，就是我用密封袋装便便的事。
on this podcast before, which was me taking a in a Ziploc bag.
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客上收听《爱丽丝梦游仙境后传》，
So listen to Alice Ever After on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
或任何你获取播客的地方。
or wherever you get your podcasts.
有件事我们都得承认。
Here's something that we can all admit.
我觉得可以直言不讳地说，和总是扮演受害者的人相处很累人。
I think pretty freely, being around someone who is always a victim is exhausting.
真的很累人。
It is exhausting.
很无聊。
It's boring.
很烦人。
It's annoying.
是啊，我们可能不愿承认这点，但事实就是如此。
Like, yeah, those might we might not want to admit that, but it's true.
即便你同情他们，即便你理解他们为何如此，关系也需要互惠互利。
Even if you have sympathy for them, even if you understand why they are the way they are, relationships run on reciprocity.
双方都必须分担情感劳动。
Both people have to share emotional labor.
双方都必须承担责任。
Both people have to take responsibility.
双方都必须感受到自己被看见的程度与他们看见对方的程度相当。
Both people have to feel like they are seen as much as they are seeing.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
即使你知道某人没有能力做到这点，这个事实也不会改变。
That doesn't change even if you know that someone is incapable of doing that.
即便你清楚他们为何如此，久而久之，这会让我们觉得自己不像家人、不像朋友、不像真正的伴侣，而只是个看护者。这种'你需要我多于我需要你'的潜在动态，真的会毁掉一段伙伴关系和感情。
Even if you know why they are the way they are and over time I think it makes us feel like we aren't family members we aren't friends with this person we aren't truly a partner to this person we are a caretaker There is this underlying dynamic of like you need me more than I need you that really can ruin a partnership and ruin a relationship.
你想知道另一个非常有趣的事吗？
Do you want to know something else really interesting?
也许吧。
Maybe.
可能不算有趣，或许还有点沉重。
Maybe not interesting, maybe kind of hard.
你与这样的人越亲近，实际上就会对他们越仁慈。
The closer you get to someone like this, the kinder you actually are to them.
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你越是试图容忍，他们的行为反而会变得越糟糕。
The more you do try to tolerate it, the worse their behaviors actually become.
很多文献都提到这点，包括创伤研究权威心理学家朱迪斯·赫尔曼的著作。
In a lot of literature, including from psychologists like Judith Herman, who is a huge trauma expert.
她撰写了开创性著作《创伤与复原》。
She wrote the foundational work Trauma and Recovery.
她描述的是，最终形成受害者心态的创伤幸存者，往往会在渴望亲密与真正恐惧亲密之间摇摆。
What she describes is that trauma survivors who end up having a victim mindset do often oscillate between craving closeness and really fearing it.
因此他们常常会在你面前开始将自己塑造成你的受害者，以此推开他们既渴望又恐惧的爱。
And so they often will begin to victimize themselves as a victim of you in your presence as a way to push away the love that they so crave and also are so fearful of.
他们越信任你，就越不会压抑这种受害者倾向。
The more as well that they that they trust you, the less they will suppress these urges towards victimhood.
你越亲近，就越能看到这些模式，可能就越不想和他们相处。
The closer you get, the more you see these patterns, the more you actually might not wanna be around them.
于是你抽身离开。
So you pull away.
这越让此人确信自己确实是受害者，他们的受害者心态就越强烈。
The more it confirms to this person that they are in fact a victim, the more they ramp up the victim mentality.
这是个可怕的恶性循环。
It's a terrible cycle.
非常不公平。
It's very unfair.
非常混乱。
It's very messy.
而且，对你来说真的很困难，因为无论你提供多少安抚或耐心，如果对方的神经系统始终预设伤害，或者这已成为他们人格中根深蒂固的部分，这些善意可能永远无法被识别为安全感。更糟的是，当你拼命对这人保持无限同情时，他们偶尔会突然翻脸指责你。
And, you know, for you, it's really difficult because no matter how much reassurance or patience you offer, it may never be registered as safety if the other person's nervous system is wired constantly to anticipate harm or if this has in fact become a deeply ingrained part of their personality and you know what it also really sucks let's just say it to be trying really hard with this person to have endless sympathy and then occasionally to have them turn on you and blame you.
为他们的伤痛责怪你。
Blame you for their hurt.
为他们的处境责怪你。
Blame you for their circumstances.
责怪你，或将你的胜利和成功视为进一步伤害他们、证明他们命苦的证据。
Blame you or see your wins or your success as just something that further hurts them and proves that they are hard done by.
要知道，如果你天生是个乐观主义者——我确实如此——说实话，和这样的人相处会让人不自觉地被感染。
And, you know, if you are somebody who is naturally optimistic, and I know I am, it honestly feels contagious to be around somebody like this.
而长期与那种持续悲观或无力感的人相处，即便是最具同理心、最乐观的'种瓜得瓜'型人格也会被耗尽精力，因为同理心本质就是情感镜像。
Being around that kind of constant pessimism or that powerlessness can drain even the most empathetic, carefree, grass is green where you water it kind of individual because empathy by nature involves emotional mirroring.
我们会感同身受。
We feel what others feel.
所以当你坐在某人面前时，就像有面镜子直照灵魂，而对方反馈给你的只有'这糟透了'。
So when you're sitting in front of somebody, there's a mirror up to your soul, and all they're giving you is like, this sucks.
这毫无希望。
This is hopeless.
我们无能为力。
We have no control.
生活对我们太残酷。
Life is hard upon us.
天啊，你几乎会和他们一样深切地感受到那种绝望。
God, you're gonna feel that despair almost as deeply as they do.
对于处在这种模式任何一方的人来说，关键不在于指责。
The work here for anyone on either side of this pattern, it's not about blame.
而在于觉察。
It's about awareness.
在于能够识别那些时刻的反应和消极情绪，并明白问题不在当前这段关系。
It's about an ability to recognize that reactivity and that negativity in those moments and know that it isn't about this relationship.
症结在于原生关系。
It's about the original relationships.
与父母、照料者、社区以及社会体系的关系。
The relationships with parents, caregivers, with community, with the system.
非常重要的一点是：这其实与你无关。
It's really important to know that this isn't actually about you.
这与你无关。
It has nothing to do with you.
你只是众多幕后纷争和情绪的替罪羊，那些积压的事情全都发泄在你身上了。
You are just a proxy for so much other baggage and so many things that are going on behind the scenes that is just getting taken out on you.
让我们稍微转移一下焦点。
Let's shift the focus a little bit.
接下来我要你完全诚实地自我反思，因为谈论那些看似活在受害者心态中的人是一回事。
I'm gonna ask you to be completely honest and self reflective with me for this next part because it's one thing to talk about people who seem to live in the victim mindset.
更重要的是，我们要能识别自己是否也偶尔会陷入那种思维方式。
It's another to maybe recognize the moments when we may or may not slip into that way of thinking ourselves.
人生难免会有一些时期让你觉得：这真的太糟了。
It's normal to have certain periods where you're just like, this really sucks.
生活糟透了。
Life really sucks.
你刚经历分手。
You've been been through a breakup.
你被裁员了。
You got laid off.
接二连三的失望接踵而至。
There's been a string of disappointments.
突然间，感觉整个世界都在与你作对。
Suddenly, feels like the world is stacked against you.
我最近就遇到过这种情况。
I've had this happen recently.
你知道，我最近失去了一个多年苦心经营的重要机会，真的特别沮丧。
You know, I had a huge opportunity that I've been working on for years fall through recently, and, you know, it was just such a bummer.
然后有几天我在收拾行李准备跨国搬家，结果事事不顺。
And then I had a couple days where I'm packing up, you know, my life to move countries and things aren't going right.
然后，你知道，有人就像一堆事情压过来，你就会觉得，天啊，我真惨。
And then, you know, someone is it's just like a bunch of things and you're just like, god, woe is me.
这一切都糟透了。
This just all sucks.
生活太糟糕了。
Life is terrible.
前几天我在录音棚和朋友Rasheen一起录音，她就像，你知道，她真的就是那种严厉的爱，说你的生活没那么艰难。
And I was in the studio the other day recording with my friend, Rasheen, and she was like, you know, she really was just like, tough love, your life's not that hard.
然后我说，是啊。
And I was like, yeah.
完全正确。
Totally right.
谢谢你跟我说这些。
Thank you for saying that to me.
就像，谢谢你直接告诉我，情况可能会更糟。
Like, thank you for just being like, it could be a lot worse.
不是那种要贬低我的方式，而是因为我们关系够好她才能这么说，我当时正陷入这种恶性循环。
Not in a way that was, like, meant to undermine, but in a way that we're good friends and she could really say that, like, I was just getting into this spiral.
这其实很安慰。
And it's comforting.
有时候被说'是啊'反而很安慰。
It's sometimes comforting to be like, yeah.
你知道，现在生活对我来说就是糟透了，因为这样就不用做选择了。
You know, life just sucks for me right now because it removes the burden of choice.
这样就不用承担改变的负担了。
It removes the burden of having to change.
实际上这意味着你感觉自由多了，觉得不用承担责任，这很棒。
And this actually means that you feel a lot more free, and you feel like you don't actually have to take responsibility, and that's great.
二十多岁和三十多岁时那种感觉其实挺不错的，突然间就觉得所有责任都落在了我们肩上。
That's actually quite a a nice feeling when we're in our twenties, when we're in our thirties, and it just feels like everything is suddenly our responsibility.
如果发生在我身上的这些坏事完全不受我控制，那该多好啊？
Wouldn't it be nice if this all these bad things that are happening to me are just not not in my control at all?
心理学家其实给这种现象起了个名字。
Psychologists actually have a name for this.
这叫做自我设限，我想把原术语也告诉你们。
It's called self handicapping, and I wanted to include the original term for you guys.
我不太喜欢'自我设限'这种说法。
I don't love the language of, like, self handicapping.
我更喜欢用'自我破坏'这个词，但它本质上指的是我们为挫折寻找借口以保护自尊的这种心理机制。
I like to use the term self sabotaging, but it basically refers to this idea that we create explanations for our setbacks that protect our self esteem.
比如没得到某个机会时，很容易说是因为外界因素、那些人偏心，或者推给某些人。
You know, this opportunity I didn't get, it's very easy to say like, well, it's because you know of this and that and outside factors and these people were biased and you know, this person, that person.
更难开口说的是：也许是因为我没准备好。
It's a lot harder to say maybe because I wasn't prepared.
也许是因为我没有全力以赴。
Maybe because, you know, I didn't put my best foot forward.
这些说辞并非有意识的谎言，明白吗？
These stories aren't conscious lies, you know?
是的，真实原因可能复杂得多。
Yeah, maybe the explanation is a lot more varied.
可能是内外因素共同作用的结果。
Maybe it's a combination of external and internal factors.
但当我们只关注外部因素时，其实是在保护自尊心和自我形象。
But when we only look at the external factor, we shield our ego, we shield our self esteem.
这样我们也失去了成长机会，无法真正了解该如何争取想要的东西、改变生活，或是看到自身态度的积极转变。
We also don't have any way to grow and we don't actually learn the truth about what we could be doing to ask for what we want, to change our lives, to see positive changes in in our attitude.
如果你注意到内心独白总是‘事情永远不会如我所愿’、‘人们总是让我失望’、‘没人像我付出那样回报我’，这可能并不意味着世界在与你为敌。
If you notice that your inner monologue sounds like things never work out for me, people constantly let me down, nobody does for me what I do for them, It might not mean that the world is against you.
这可能意味着你实际上在重复一些相当有害的行为模式。
It might mean that you're actually repeating patterns that are quite hurtful.
有时我们的大脑会用非常笼统、宽泛的陈述来掩饰某种特定的伤痛。
Sometimes our brain uses very global, wide reaching statements to disguise a very specific kind of grief.
说‘所有人都会离开我’比承认‘某人离开了我，这真的很痛’要容易得多。
Saying everyone leaves me is easier than admitting, you know, someone has left me and it really hurts.
而且这种情况以前发生过，我不想探究原因。
And this has happened before and I don't want to investigate why.
说‘从没有人像我对待关系那样投入’或‘没人像我付出那样回报我’，比起深入探讨‘我取悦他人是为了他们还是为了自己？’要轻松得多。
Saying nobody ever puts into my relationship what I put into it or nobody ever gives me what I give them, you know, it's a lot easier to say that than to, you know, get into a conversation of like, am I people pleasing for others or for me?
我真的是个好人，还是期待得到回报？
Am I actually a nice person, or do I expect things in return?
也许我该停止把这种怨恨投射到他人身上。
And maybe I should stop putting that resentment on others.
我知道这些真相很残酷，可能不是你想要的答案。但我个人认为，只有当我们为真相留出空间，诚实审视自己感受的根源时，才能真正成长。
Hard truths, I know, maybe they're not the thing you wanted to hear, but personally I just believe that we grow when we leave room for the truth and for and room for investigating and being honest with ourselves about why we feel the way we feel about our circumstances.
这并不意味着要为超出你控制范围的事情自责。
And that doesn't mean blaming yourself for what's out of your control.
而是识别出那些你确实能施加影响的地方，哪怕只有一点点，然后善加利用。
It means recognizing the places where you do have agency, even the tiniest bit, and using it.
人们常常在两个极端之间摇摆：指责或羞耻，这非常普遍。
It's really common for people to switch between two polar opposites, blame or shame.
要么全是别人的错，要么全是我的错。
It's either all their fault or it's all my fault.
我们的目标是找到中间地带。
The goal here is the middle ground.
我们希望认识到伤害性事件的发生，但我此刻仍有选择权。
We want to be able to recognize something hurtful happened, but I still have choices now.
是的。
Yes.
我宁愿那件伤害性事件从未发生。
I wish the hurtful thing hadn't happened.
我多希望人生能有所不同。
I wish life had been different.
但这改变不了我当下拥有的可能性。
That doesn't change what's available to me in this moment.
人们很容易陷入另一种误区，认为所谓赋能就是假装坏事从未发生。但现实世界中坏事确实存在，我们必须明白：在承认'这件可怕的事发生了，我不希望它发生在别人身上，我也不为此感恩'的同时，我们依然有权继续前行，而不是让这件事成为人生的全部注脚——关键在于我现在手握什么牌？
It's very tempting to believe on the flip side that empowerment means pretending nothing bad ever happens but in the real world sometimes it does and we have to understand that we're allowed to move forward past that without making it our whole story with still acknowledging like this terrible thing happened I don't want it to happen to other people I don't necessarily I'm not grateful that it happened but what are my cards now?
这远比简单粗暴地认定'我就是受害者，过往经历证明我未来也永远是受害者'要难以面对得多。
And that's so much harder to face than the very simple simple explanation of I'm just a victim, and these past circumstances are proof that I will continue to be a victim into the future.
没必要浪费时间和精力试图改变已成定局的事实。
And there's no point wasting my time, wasting my energy trying to change that.
希望大家能理解我的出发点。
I hope you guys get where I'm coming from.
希望你们明白这不是在指责受害者。
I hope you can understand this isn't victim blaming.
这更像是关于'受害者心态是否真的对你有益'的辩证讨论——何时承认客观环境的影响是合理且重要的，何时它却成了彻底逃避现实的保护壳，让你对自身能动性视而不见。
It's just a more nuanced discussion of like whether a victim mentality actually helps you and when acknowledging circumstances and the role they play is valid and important and when it becomes a way to completely shield you or turn any form of agency invisible in your eyes.
好的。
Okay.
我们已探讨了自身问题。
We've talked about ourselves.
也讨论了那些有自省能力的人——他们能敏锐察觉自己陷入这种心态的时刻，清醒认识到自己何时开始采用受害者思维。
We've talked about the self aware people who are critical of themselves when they fall into this mentality, know when they are adopting a victim mindset.
让我们再次回顾那种被外界强加的心态——父母、兄弟姐妹、老师，甚至朋友、伴侣、同事都可能对我们施加这种影响。
Let's actually just turn back again to when that mindset is applied upon us by people beyond us, by parents, siblings, teachers, I don't know, friends, partners, colleagues.
当我们遇到这样的人时该怎么办？
What do we do when we encounter somebody like that?
当我们具备自我认知，明白有时确实需要抱怨，但这次可能超出了合理范围时，
When we have the self awareness in ourselves to know that sometimes we do need a complaint, but this is maybe a level beyond.
我们该如何应对？
What do we do about it?
好的。
Okay.
我们将短暂休息片刻，回来后讨论如何应对生活中那些永远扮演受害者角色的人。
We're gonna take another short break, but when we return, let's talk about, yeah, how to manage forever victims in your life.
在《健康那些事儿》播客中，我们将解答所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。
On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.
是的，我是
Yes, I'm Doctor.
普里扬卡·沃利医生，拥有双重委员会认证的医师资格。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达博鲁，既是喜剧演员，也是曾在凌晨三点搜索‘我是不是得了坏血病’的人。
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?
在《健康那些事儿》里，我们用独特视角探讨健康话题。
On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.
这不仅关乎如何改善健康状况，
It's not only about what we can do to improve our health.
更在于健康状况如何反映我们的生活方式。
But also what our health says about us and the way we're living.
比如我们探讨糖尿病的那期节目。
Like our episode where we look at diabetes.
在美国，我是说，50%的美国人处于糖尿病前期。
In The United States, I mean, fifty percent of Americans are pre diabetic.
二型糖尿病有多可预防？
How preventable is type two?
极其可预防。
Extremely.
或者我们对芒果有多么不可思议的深入分析
Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes
是。
are.
哦，很难向世界其他地方解释，你觉得你们的芒果不错，因为芒果本来就棒极了，但你根本不懂。
Oh, it's hard to explain to rest of the world that you like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but, like, you don't even know.
你不
You don't
懂。
know.
你不懂。
You don't know.
这将是一段有趣的旅程，敬请收听。
It's going to be a fun ride, so tune in.
在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听健康内容。
Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨，凯尔。
Hi, Kyle.
你能草拟一份简短的文档吗，包含
Could you draw up a quick document with
基本的商业计划，只需一页，用谷歌文档，并且
the basic business plan, just one page, as a Google Doc, and
把链接发给我？
send me the link?
谢谢。
Thanks.
嘿，刚给你起草好那份一页纸的快速商业计划书。
Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.
这是链接。
Here's the link.
但根本没有链接。
But there was no link.
也没有商业计划书。
There was no business plan.
这不是他的错。
It's not his fault.
我还没给凯尔编写这个功能。
I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet.
我是埃文·拉特利夫。
My name is Evan Ratliff.
在听完OpenAI CEO萨姆·奥特曼说的那些话后，我决定创造我的AI联合创始人凯尔。
I decided to create Kyle, my AI cofounder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
现在有个赌局，赌第一年会不会出现单人运营的十亿美元公司。没有AI的话这简直难以想象，但现在即将成真。
There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company, which would have been, like, unimaginable without AI, and now it will happen.
我开始思考：我能成为那个人吗？
I got to thinking, could I be that one person?
之前为获奖播客《骗局》制作AI角色时我就用过这类技术。
I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game.
本季《骗局》中，我试图用虚拟员工运营一家真实公司并推出真实产品。
This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.
各位。
People.
哦，嘿，埃文。
Oh, hey, Evan.
很高兴有
Good to have
你加入我们。
you join us.
我发现了一些关于中小型企业采用AI代理的有趣数据。
I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.
在iHeartRadio应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《Shell Game》。
Listen to Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
有时不完美也没关系，重要的是能在彼此间建立力量与爱。
It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and love within each other.
感恩节不仅仅关乎食物。
Thanksgiving isn't just about food.
这一天是我们相互支持的日子。
It's a day for us to show up for one another.
我是艾略特·康尼，播客《家庭治疗》的主持人，这是一个让真实家庭聚在一起疗愈并寻找希望的系列节目。
I'm Elliot Conney, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope.
什么样的线索会表明我们可能...？
What would be a clue that we'd be like?
我收到了他发来的很多短信。
I've gotten lots of text messages from him.
这条来自一个状态稍好的他。
This one's from a little bit better of a version of him.
因为他现在把自己照顾得很好。
Because he's feeding himself well.
这总是个令人担忧的问题。
It's always a concern.
比如，你吃得好吗？
Like, are you eating well?
他其实是个很棒的厨师。
He's actually an amazing cook.
有一次我们有邻居，我救了他们的狗，最后还邀请他们来家里吃饭。
There was this one time where we had neighbors, and I saved their dog, and I ended up inviting them over for food.
那可以说是我最自豪的时刻之一。
And that was, like, one of my proudest moments.
这里是《家庭治疗》。
This is Family Therapy.
真实家庭，真实故事，共同治愈之旅。
Real families, real stories on a journey to heal together.
每周三在Black Effect播客网络、iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《家庭治疗》第二季。
Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是伊娃·朗格利亚。
I'm Eva Longoria.
我是梅塔戈梅莎·琼。
And I'm Maytagomesha Joon.
在我们的播客《渴望历史》中，我们融合了两大最爱：美食与历史。
And on our podcast, Hungry for History, we mix two of our favorite things, food and history.
古雅典人曾将名字刻在牡蛎壳上投票放逐政客，他们称这些为陶片放逐。
Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells, and they called these ostracon to vote politicians into exile.
所以我们现代英语中'ostracized'（排斥）这个词其实与'oyster'（牡蛎）同源。
So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster.
不可能。
No way.
把陶片带回来。
Bring back the ostracon.
因为我们节目氛围很友好，总有朋友来串门。
And because we've got a very kind of vibe on our show, friends always stop by.
几乎进入地球这一侧的每一条通道都要经过编号。
Pretty much every entry into this side of the planet was through the No.
美国。
The America.
不。
No.
美国。
The America.
对。
Yeah.
墨西哥湾。
Golfo de Mexico.
持续播种，直到永远。
Continuana cembras y forever and ever.
它
It
墨西哥在这一刻的进步程度让我震惊。
blows me away how progressive Mexico was in this in this moment.
他们进行了土地改革。
They had land reform.
他们拥有劳工权利。
They had labor rights.
他们享有教育权利。
They had education rights.
芥菜籽对古埃及人来说非常珍贵，他们常将其放入墓穴中
Mustard seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they used to place them in their tombs for
以备来世之用。
the afterlife.
欢迎收听《历史饥渴》节目，这是My Cultura播客网络的一部分，您可以在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何您获取播客的平台找到我们。
Listen to hungry for history as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
铃儿响叮当。
Jingle bells.
铃儿响叮当。
Jingle bells.
一路响叮当。
Jingle all the way.
哟。
Yo.
哟。
Yo.
我们能先过个感恩节吗？
Can we get a Thanksgiving first?
我饿了。
I'm hungry.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, y'all.
我是Kadeen。
It's Kadeen.
还有DeVal。
And DeVal.
《艾拉的童话之后》节目主持人
The hosts of Ella's ever after
感受
feeling
觉得自己失败，很可能正说明你是个好父母。
like you're failing, that's probably because you're a good parent.
友谊。
Friendship.
注意你投入的东西
Be careful what you put
到身体里。
in your body.
活动你的身体并爱它，就像你爱那些车、
Move your body and love it the way you love them cars,
那座房子、那些衣服、那些鞋一样。
that house, them clothes, them shoes.
那些早午餐。
Them brunches.
爱自己。
Love yourself.
那些早午餐。
Them brunches.
爱情与婚姻。
Love and marriage.
你知道什么开始吸引我了吗？
You know what's become attractive to me?
这是因为我自我修正了，而且
And it's because I've self corrected, and
我想我已经自我排毒了。
I guess I detoxified myself.
责任感。
Accountability.
天啊，那是
Holy That is
非常迷人。
mad attractive.
对我来说太有吸引力了，还有其他一切。
So attractive to me and everything else in between.
我已经在这里讲过我最尴尬的时刻了
I've told my most embarrassing moment on this
之前在这个播客里，就是我拿了个
podcast before, which was me taking a in
密封袋。
a Ziploc bag.
请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客
So listen to Ellis Ever After on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
或你获取播客的任何平台收听《Ellis Ever After》。
or wherever you get your podcasts.
如果你的生活中有个永远的受害者，处理方法不止一种。
If you've got a forever victim in your life, there's no one way to go about it.
但这里或许是最友善的方式，同时不会让你被他们拖累。
But here is perhaps the kindest way that you can that also won't drag you down with them.
显然首先要理解背后的原因。
Obviously it starts with this understanding of what's underneath.
如果我们透过言语、抱怨、绝望和指责去看，通常会发现恐惧。
If we look past the words, the complaints, the despair, the blame, what we usually find is is fear.
对于那些因创伤形成受害者心态的人，这种恐惧是后天习得的。
For people whose victim mindset developed through trauma this fear is learnt.
这是神经系统在做它一贯的反应——为疼痛做准备。
It's a nervous system reaction doing what it's always done for them which is preparing for pain.
正因如此，逻辑、建议和鼓励性谈话都无济于事。
And that is why logic, advice, pep talks aren't gonna help.
当某人的大脑认定危险或失望不可避免时，你试图用作盾牌的乐观主义对他们毫无帮助。
When someone's brain believes danger or disappointment is inevitable, that optimism that you would maybe use as a shield, like that's just not gonna help them.
事实上，你能做的最有力的事就是营造一种调节氛围。
The most powerful thing that you can do is in fact creating an atmosphere of regulation.
这意味着在他们情绪崩溃时保持冷静，示范稳定性，通过你的语气和存在向他们表明：他们自视为受害者的想法既不真实也无益处。
That means staying calm when they spiral, modeling steadiness, showing them through your tone and presence that maybe this idea they have of themselves as a victim is not true and also isn't helpful.
同情并不意味着你必须一味附和。
Compassion, you know, it doesn't mean that you have to just go along with it.
你可以认可某人的痛苦，同时不认可随之而来的绝望循环或心态。
You can validate someone's pain without validating the hopelessness cycle or mindset that comes with it.
你可以这样说：'听起来很痛苦，我理解这为什么会伤害你。'
You can say something like, that sounds so painful and I can see why that would hurt you.
'但我相信事情不会一直这样下去。'
But I also believe that, like, it's not always gonna be like this.
'我也相信我们有很多方法可以改变现状。'
I also believe that there's a lot that we can do to change that.
'我还相信最终一切都会好起来'——通过这种方式向他们示范：这不是世界末日，事情也可能并非他们想象的那样。
I also believe that things are gonna still turn out okay as a way to model that this isn't the end of the world, and it also may not be what they think it is.
给他们一点暗示：'嘿，至少我相信你有主观能动性'，这能邀请他们进入新叙事。
Giving them a hint of like, hey, I, for one, believe you have agency invites them into a new story.
就像看待自我的新视角——既接纳过去，又不容忍'我永远无法改变'这种永恒心态。
Like a new version of seeing themselves that also accepts the past but doesn't tolerate this forever mentality that they can never change.
所以我认为这就像在说：你既安全无虞，又潜力无限。
So I think it's like you're safe but also you're capable.
在心理治疗中，我认为这种方法与我们所说的动机式访谈非常相似。
In therapy, I think this approach really mirrors something that we call motivational interviewing.
与其争论某人自我否定的信念，这种技巧会让你提出开放式问题，帮助他们发现自己想要改变的原因。
Instead of arguing with somebody's self defeating beliefs, you ask open ended questions in this technique that help them discover their own reasons for change.
你可以问他们：如果这种模式开始改变，你觉得生活会变成什么样子？
You ask them, you know, what do you think life would look like if this pattern started to shift?
你希望在哪件事上能有不同的感受？
What's one thing you wish you felt different about?
现在有什么小事是你可以掌控并去做的？
What's something small that you can do that you can control right now?
是的。
Yeah.
这些情况确实令人难以承受。
These circumstances are overwhelming.
没错。
Yeah.
你没能得到那份工作，这真的非常非常糟糕。
It's really, really sucks you didn't get that job.
那个人和你分手了，这确实很糟。
Sucks that that person broke up with you.
让我们把眼光放长远些。
Let's think bigger.
接下来会有什么在等着你呢？
What's what's gonna come for you next?
转角处有什么让你期待的事吗？
What's around the corner that you're excited about?
倒数第二个问题——'现在有什么小事是你可以掌控的'，我特别喜欢这个。
That second last one of what's something small you can control right now, I love that.
我有个朋友叫艾玛。
I have a friend, Emma.
她是一名社会工作者，也是世上最美的人之一，但她有时会对我用这招。
She is a social worker and one of the most beautiful humans alive, but she she uses this on me sometimes.
我不认为自己有很强的受害者心态，但有时候，你知道，我就是喜欢发发牢骚。
I don't think I have much of a victim mindset, but sometimes, you know, I just sometimes I like to whinge.
她试图做得隐秘些，但我知道她在这么做。
And she tries to be sneaky about it, but I know she does it.
她有种非常积极的方式，比如'让我们换个角度想想'。
She has such a positive way of being like, let's redirect here.
而且这招很管用。
And it works.
她不需要经常这么做，但特别有趣。
She doesn't have to do it very often, but it's so funny.
我总是当场拆穿她。
I always call her out on it.
我就说'你不能对我进行心理辅导'。
I'm like, you can't you can't therapize me.
我清楚你在干什么。
Like, I know what you're doing.
这些问题的真正作用是，如果你是个有能力且愿意改变的人，它会让你看到那扇门其实是开着的。
And what these questions really do is, like, if you're somebody who can and wants to change, it just allows you to see that the door the door is open.
它通过'这是个让你承担责任的机会'的方式，巧妙地绕过了心理防御。
And it bypasses defensiveness by really just being like, here's an invitation to take accountability.
而对于我们这些被提问的人来说，关键是要为情感劳动设定界限——特别是当对方是家人、室友或亲密关系时。
Now for those of us on the other side it's also crucial that you set boundaries around emotional labor especially if this is somebody who is a family member or somebody that you live with or somebody that you're very close with.
当然，我相信你爱身边的人，希望他们自我感觉良好。
Of course, I'm sure you love the people around you, you want them to feel great about themselves.
有些人是无法改变的，这不是你的责任，也不该拖垮你。
There is a point where you cannot change them and it's not your responsibility and it should not drag you down.
对这种人，无尽的同情毫无作用。
Endless sympathy does not work for people like this.
让我们把话说得非常非常清楚。
Let's be very very clear.
即使你认为自己在做好事，这其实也帮不到你。
And it doesn't help you either even if you think you're being nice.
界限是让关系得以持续的关键。
Boundaries are what keeps that relationships relationships sustainable.
可以说：'我真的很在乎你，但我不能再继续这种对话了，因为它也开始伤害我。'
Saying things like, I really care about you but I cannot keep having this conversation because it's starting to hurt me too.
或者说：'我会支持你，但需要你主动决定下一步。'
Or I'm here for you but I need you to take the lead on what comes next.
我需要你真正努力在这个处境中自救。
I need you to really try and help yourself in this situation.
甚至可以说：'嘿，我爱你，但我生活中不能充斥这种消极情绪，它正在改变我的自我认知，这对我们都不健康。'
Even saying things like, hey, I I love you, I can't be around this kind of negativity in my life because it's really starting to change how I see myself and I don't think that's good for either of us.
这些话既表达了共情，也表明需要对方承担责任的期待。
These phrases signal empathy but also an expectation that you need to take charge.
如果你希望我留在你生活中，想要这段关系积极发展，就必须做出改变。
If you want me in your life, if you want this to be a positive relationship, something needs to change.
前几天看到一句很美的话：'真正的共情不是吸收他人情绪，而是在见证时不迷失自我。'
I saw this beautiful quote the other day that said, true empathy is not about absorbing someone's feelings but witnessing them without losing ourselves in the process.
要知道，人们很容易误以为自己很有同理心，实际上只是把对方的情绪转移到了自己身上。
You know, it's very easy to think I'm being empathetic when actually you're just taking the emotion away from them and placing it inside of you.
当你可能无意中助长某人重复某种循环时，很容易误以为自己在展现同理心。
It's easy to think I'm being empathetic when you're really, maybe by accident helping someone continue a cycle.
当我们通过拯救、修复、过度安抚为他人过度付出时，实际上是在强化他们的无助感。
When we over function for somebody else through rescuing, fixing, excessive soothing, we actually reinforce the helplessness.
我们教会他们安全感只能通过我们获得，于是他们的情绪调节方式变成了向我们发泄、要求我们解决问题、向我们抱怨，并知道我们会附和说'你说得完全对'。
We teach them safety exists through us and us only and their sense or form of regulation becomes venting to us, becomes asking us to fix their problems, becomes complaining to us and knowing that we're going to be like yeah like you're totally right about that.
你是个受害者，而且会一直如此。
You are a victim, and you're gonna stay that way.
这根本毫无帮助。
Like, that's not helpful at all.
当我们示范稳定性，示范边界感时，我们潜移默化地教会他们一些东西。
When we model stability, when we model boundaries, we teach them something subliminally.
有时尽管倾注了所有同理心和倾听，一切仍毫无改变。
Now sometimes despite all the empathy and all the listening, nothing changes.
要知道有些人就是不会改变，这是生活中一个残酷的真相。
You know, some people just aren't going to change, and that is, like, a really hard truth about life.
他们不会改变，更不会为你改变。
Like, they're not gonna change, and they're not gonna change for you.
这确实很糟糕，也是很难接受的事实。
And that really sucks, and it's a really hard thing to acknowledge.
但你必须面对现实并思考：
But you have to take the situation from there and just think about, hey.
此刻什么对我最有利？
What's maybe best for me here?
当同情开始转为怨恨时，你会知道是时候疏远某人——减少见面次数，限制互动频率。
You'll know when it's time to kind of maybe distance yourself from a person, maybe see them a lot less, maybe limit interactions when compassion starts turning into resentment.
怨恨是身体在警告你：你的同理心正在急速流失。
Resentment is your body telling you that your empathy levels are sinking and they are sinking fast.
当你恐惧下一次对话，当看到对方名字弹出就全身紧绷时，这些信号说明你的边界被反复侵犯，这种受害者心态具有传染性，而你在这段关系中感到不适。
When you dread the next conversation, when you feel your body tense every time you see their name pop up, those are the signals that your boundaries are being crossed repeatedly, that this victim mindset is becoming contagious, and that you aren't feeling good about this relationship.
这是一个信号，表明你真诚的助人欲望已迅速滑入了病态讨好的范畴。
It is a signal that your genuine desire to help has swiftly entered the territory of maladaptive people pleasing.
有时在这些情况下，离开可能是对双方最仁慈的选择，保持距离也是一种善意，这样关系才不会彻底恶化成灾难，让他们再次感到自己是受害者。
Sometimes in these situations, like walking away is the kindest thing you can do for both of you or giving distance is is also a kindness so that this relationship doesn't end up just becoming a total length dumpster fire that again makes them feel like a victim.
给自己两周时间远离这个人，看看你的生活会发生什么变化，是否会感觉更好。
Giving yourself two weeks away from this person to see how your own life changes, whether you feel better.
这只是个小实验，让你了解自己的极限，能够在这段关系中建立健康的界限和距离，从而恢复精力，这样你才有能量在美好时光和艰难时刻都陪伴他们。
It's just a little experiment just so that you know your own limits and you are able to put healthy boundaries and distance between this person so that you can recuperate and so that you do have the energy to be around them for the good times as well as the bad times.
如果你需要保持距离，那就明确地去做。
If you need to distance yourself, do it with the do it with clarity.
要明确地表达：我关心你。
Do it with the clarity of like, I care about you.
我希望你一切都好。
I want good things for you.
但目前这种相处模式对我不健康。
Right now, this dynamic isn't healthy for me.
我希望你能得到应得的支持。
I hope you get the support you deserve.
我很期待很快见到你，但接下来几周我有点忙，真的需要充电。
I'm so excited to see you soon, but I'm just kind of busy for the next couple of weeks, and I just really need to recharge.
我也有自己的事情要处理。
I've got my own things going on.
有机会我会联系你。
I'll talk to you when I when I get the chance.
你知道，这很残酷。
You know, it's harsh.
可能不是每个人都愿意或想要这样做，但重要的是要明白：如果某人总让你痛苦，你完全有权利退出他们的生活。
It's probably something that not everyone is gonna be willing or wants to do, but it's probably important to learn that you are allowed to just not be in somebody's life if they constantly make you feel terrible.
如果你已经尝试了清单上的所有方法，而对方依然不改变、拖累你，并利用受害者心态进行操控，你有权在他们不愿改变时做出改变。
And if you have done everything else on this list and this person does not change, brings you down, is using the victim mentality for manipulative purposes, you are allowed to change if they won't.
为了自我关怀和疗愈，你有权退出这段关系。
And you're allowed to exit the relationship for self care purposes and so that you can heal.
说实话，这听起来可能像是个简单的情况。
The truth is, you know, this might sound like a simple situation.
我只是在谈论而非付诸行动。
I'm talking about it rather than doing it.
这真的非常复杂。
It's really complicated.
你真正需要判断的是：这个人究竟是操控型受害者还是值得同情的受害者，什么选择对你才是正确的。
It you really just have to determine what's what's right for you whether this person is a manipulative victim or a compassionate victim.
这确实非常复杂。
It's really complicated.
我觉得我们总爱随意给人贴标签，比如'那人就是受害者心态'，却忽略了这些人也有亲友同事，生活与他们紧密相连。
I feel like we like to just throw around these terms of like that person has such a victim mentality not realizing like that these people also have friends and family members and coworkers whose lives are intertwined with them.
我们需要更好的应对方式，但在控制欲作祟、试图用愧疚感绑架你同理心的情况下，你可以直接说：这不是我想要的生活。
We need like a better way of dealing with it but sometimes like in the cases of control, in the cases where they're trying to guilt you or use your empathy against you, like, you can just be like, this isn't what I want from my life.
你可以拉开距离，给自己空间远离那个人。
And you can provide distance and give yourself the distance to move away from that person.
我在此允许你坦然接受：这样做其实没关系。
I I'm giving you permission to say, like, that's actually okay.
根据事态严重性，可能确实需要你采取行动。
And the severity of the circumstances may actually call call for you to do that.
你并不残忍。
You're not being cruel.
这是对自己最大的善意——避免让自己沦为受害者后去伤害他人，有时这也是对对方最大的仁慈。
That is the kindest thing you can do for yourself so that you don't turn into a victim who then ends up victimizing somebody else, and it's sometimes the kindest thing you can do for them as well.
希望这期节目能给你带来更多思考。
I hope this episode has given you a bit more to think about.
如果你坚持听到这里，作为一路追随的忠实听众，请在下方留下一个黑色爱心表情符号。
If you have made it this far, if you are a loyal all the way through listener, I want you to leave a little black heart emoji down below.
我认为这很有象征意义，代表那些持有受害者心态的人。
I think that's pretty symbolic, somebody who has a victim mindset.
想及时获取最新节目动态，可以在Instagram关注@thatpsychologypodcast，也可以在任意收听平台关注我们。
If you wanna stay in the loop with other episodes that are coming out, you can follow us on Instagram at that psychology podcast, and you can also follow us here wherever you are listening.
请务必订阅我们的节目。
Make sure you are subscribed.
如果愿意，请给我们五星好评。
Please give us a five star review if you feel called to do so.
当然不给也没关系。
But if you don't, that's alright as well.
还要感谢我们出色的研究员Libby Colbert为本期节目做出的贡献。
I also wanna thank our amazing researcher, Libby Colbert, for her contributions to this episode.
没有她和她的协助，我们无法完成这期节目。
We couldn't do it without her and all of her help.
下次见面前，请注意安全，保持善良，温柔对待自己。
But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself.
祝你顺利应对那些受害者，我们很快会再聊。
Good luck with the victims you're dealing with and we will talk very very soon.
在《健康那些事》播客中，我们将解答所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。
On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.
我是
I'm Doctor.
Priyanka Wally医生，拥有双委员会认证的执业医师资格。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达波卢，一名喜剧演员，曾在凌晨三点搜索‘我是不是得了坏血病？’
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?
在我们的节目中，我们用不同方式探讨健康话题，比如有一期专门讨论糖尿病。
And on our show, we're talking about health in a different way, like our episode where we look at diabetes.
在美国，50%的美国人处于糖尿病前期。
In The United States, I mean, fifty percent of Americans are prediabetic.
二型糖尿病有多大概率可以预防？
How preventable is type two?
极高概率。
Extremely.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听健康内容。
Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是丹尼·特雷霍，欢迎来到《夜曲：暗影传说》，这是一部现代恐怖故事选集，灵感源自拉丁美洲的传说与民间故事。
Join me, Danny Trejo, in Nocturno, tales from the shadows, an anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends and lore of Latin America.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听《夜曲：暗影传说》。
Listen to Nocturnal, tales from the shadows on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
欢迎收听《解码女性健康》。
Welcome to Decoding Women's Health.
我是伊丽莎白·波因特医生。
I'm Doctor.
纽约市阿德里亚健康研究所女性健康与妇科主任。
Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.
我将对话顶尖研究人员和临床医生，为你直接带来中年女性健康的重要资讯。
I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.
100%的女性都会经历更年期。
A hundred percent of women go through menopause.
即便是自然现象，我们为何要默默承受？
Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方，收听由Elizabeth Poynter医生主持的《解码女性健康》节目。
Listen to Decoding Women's Health with doctor Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
你知道这里的八卦总是最劲爆的。
You know the shade is always shadiest right here.
播客第六季《适度八卦》由Giselle Bryan和Robin Dixon主持，每周一准时更新。
Season six of the podcast, reasonably shady with Giselle Bryan and Robin Dixon is here dropping every Monday.
作为《波托马克的真实主妇》的两位创始成员，我们将为你带来所有你能承受的笑料、戏剧和现实新闻。
As two of the founding members of the Real Housewives of Potomac, we're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle.
你知道我们从不保留，所以每周一和我们一起适度八卦吧。
And you know we don't hold back, so come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你获取播客的地方，收听来自Black Effect播客网络的《适度八卦》。
Listen to reasonably shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
人们曾称他们为杀人犯。
People called them murderers.
十年后，他们被奉若神明。
Ten years later, they were gods.
如今，已无人记得他们的名字。
Today, no one knows their names.
这是一群挑战医疗体制的特立独行外科医生，他们冒着一切风险开创了心脏直视手术。
A group of maverick surgeons who took on the medical establishment who risked everything to invent open heart surgery.
欢迎来到美国医学的狂野西部。
Welcome to the Wild West of American medicine.
我是克里斯·派恩，这里是《心脏牛仔》。
I'm Chris Pine, and this is Cardiac Cowboys.
如果你喜欢医疗剧，喜欢心跳加速的惊悚片，你一定会爱上《心脏牛仔》。
If you like medical dramas, if you like heart pounding thrillers, you will love cardiac cowboys.
在iHeartRadio应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听。
Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.
由Jasper AI赞助，专为营销人员打造的人工智能。
Sponsored by Jasper AI, AI built for marketers.
这里是iHeart播客。
This is an iHeart podcast.
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