387. 自恋的真相 ...

这是iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

百分百真人录制。

Guaranteed Human.

半夜里，萨斯娅在迷迷糊糊中醒了过来。

In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.

她的丈夫迈克正在用笔记本电脑。

Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

他屏幕上的内容将永远改变萨斯娅的人生。

What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.

我说过，你需要告诉我你到底在做什么。

I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.

那一刻，面具立刻脱落了。

And immediately the mask came off.

你本该是安全的。

You're supposed to be safe.

那是你的家。

That's your home.

那是你的丈夫。

That's your husband.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《背叛》第五季。

Listen to betrayal season five on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

在过去几年里，我们难道没有学到，折叠椅是黑人因为阿拉巴马州发生的事情而发明的吗？

Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama?

蒙哥马利文胸。

Montgomery bra.

今年黑人历史月，播客《选择性无知》与曼迪·B 一起，用幽默、清晰和颠覆现状的对话，探讨黑人历史与文化。

This black history month, the podcast selective ignorance with Mandy b unpacks black history and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo.

2019年7月，纽约通过了《王冠法案》，这是一项旨在禁止基于与种族相关发型的歧视的法案。

The crown act in New York was signed in July 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race.

要收听这些内容及其他更多节目，请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《选择性无知》与曼迪·B，来自黑人效应播客网络。

To hear this and more, listen to selective ignorance with Mandy b from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你可以整天刷新闻头条，却依然感到空虚。

You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty.

我是本·希金斯。

I'm Ben Higgins.

如果你能听到我，那就是文化与灵魂交汇之处。

And if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul.

我们会探讨身份、失去、目标、平静、信仰以及名人、思想家、普通人之间的种种话题，有些人有答案。

Conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between celebrities, thinkers, everyday people, some have answers.

但大多数人仍在摸索中。

Most are still figuring it out.

如果你曾觉得故事背后一定还有更多，那么这个节目就是为你准备的。

And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you.

收听《如果你能听到我》，请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听。

Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是鲍温·杨。

I'm Bowen Yang.

我是马特·罗杰斯。

And I'm Matt Rogers.

在《两个男人，五枚戒指》播客本季，为迎接2026年米兰-科尔蒂纳冬奥会，我们邀请了一些朋友加入。

During this season of the two guys, five rings podcast in the lead up to the Milan Cortina twenty twenty six Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

嗨，鲍文。

Hi, Bowen.

嗨，

Hi,

马特。

Matt.

嘿，艾尔莫。

Hey, Elmo.

嘿，马特。

Hey, Matt.

嘿，鲍文。

Hey, Bowen.

你好，Cookie。

Hi, Cookie.

你好。

Hi.

现在冬季奥运会正在进行，我们

Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we

正在意大利，将发自内心的经历带给你的耳朵。

are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《两个家伙，五枚戒指》。

Listen to two guys five rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

如果心灵控制是真实的呢？

What if mind control is real?

如果你能控制周围任何人的行为

If you could control the behavior

你会拥有怎样的人生？

of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

你能通过催眠说服某人买一辆车吗？

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

当你看着你的车时，你会被一种强烈的美好感受淹没。

When you look at your car, you're gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

你能催眠某人和你发生关系吗？

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

我给了她一些建议，让她产生性兴奋。

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

你能让人加入你的邪教吗？

Can you get someone to join your cult?

有人用神经语言程序学（NLP）来接触我的潜意识。

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

《MindGames》是一款新播客，探索神经语言程序学（NLP）。

MindGames, Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, aka neuro linguistic programming.

这是一种自我帮助的奇迹，还是一个可疑的催眠骗局，或者两者兼有？

Is it a self help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both?

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《Mind Games》。

Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是杰玛·斯派克，欢迎回到《二十岁的心理学》，这档播客我们将探讨二十岁人生中最重要的变化、时刻与转折，以及它们对我们的心理意味着什么。

I'm Gemma Spike, and welcome back to the psychology of your twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

欢迎回到播客。

Welcome back to the podcast.

很高兴你再次回来收听这一期节目。

It is so great to have you here back for another episode.

我觉得这可能是我连续五期生病后，第一次不再发出令人讨厌的鼻音，让你们不用再听到那些难听的声音。

I think this is the first episode in, like, five episodes where I am no longer sick, and you guys don't have to listen to, like, a disgusting nasal noise come into your ears.

为此，我心怀感激。

So for that, I am grateful.

为此，我对今天的节目充满期待。

And for that, I am excited for today's episode.

今天我又为大家带来一个迷你节目，准确地说，是我又准备了一个迷你节目。

We have another well, I should say I have another mini episode for you today.

如果你还不熟悉我们的迷你节目，它们其实就是一些更短小、更易消化的单集，我们会拆解一些在网络上、TikTok上、约会讨论中或群聊里经常出现的特定说法或心理学概念。

If you are not familiar with our mini episodes, they're basically kind of smaller bite sized episodes where we break down a certain phrase, a certain psychological concept that gets thrown around a lot online, in TikToks, in dating discourse, in group chats.

本质上，我们会从心理学的角度来剖析这些术语的真实含义，而不是依据流行文化。

And, essentially, we dissect what it actually means according to the psychology rather than according to the pop culture.

今天，我们来探讨一下——坦白说——被请求最多、被滥用最多、也可能是被误解最深的术语和标签。

And today, we are tackling, let's be let's be honest, the most requested, the most weaponized, and probably the most misunderstood term and label of them all.

我们今天要谈的是自恋。

We are talking about narcissism.

今天我不浪费任何时间了，因为我们有太多内容要讨论，但只要你稍微深入一点，自恋这个词就非常引人入胜。

I'm not gonna waste any time today because we have so much to talk about, but narcissism is such a fascinating term when you scratch even below a tiny inch below the surface.

而且这个词也非常古老，我想很多人可能并不知道，尽管它在当今如此流行。

And it's also such an ancient term, which I think a lot of people might not know, probably maybe know, given its modern day popularity.

所以你可能以前听说过希腊神话中的纳西索斯。

So you may have heard of the Greek myth of narcissist before.

这个词的来源就是这个神话。

Basically, is where the term comes from.

纳西索斯是个极其英俊、出众的年轻人，却冷酷地拒绝了所有仰慕者。

Narcissist was this incredibly handsome, striking young man who just really cruelly rejected all of his admirers.

他完全不想和任何一个人打交道，那些美丽的女性们。

So he didn't want anything to do with any of them, all these beautiful women.

这激怒了女神涅墨西斯，她惩罚纳西索斯，让他陷入对自身倒影的痴迷之爱。

This led to the goddess, Nemesis, punishing Narcissus with an all consuming love for nothing but his own reflection.

他如此沉迷，以至于传说中他凝视着池塘中的倒影，最终溺水而亡，完全被这影像所吞噬，渴望更多。

So much so that the story goes he drowned staring at his reflection in a pond, like, so consumed by it, wanting so much more of it.

这个词正是源于这个叫纳西索斯的人。

This is where the term basically gets its name from this man, narcissist.

它直到十九世纪晚期才真正成为一个心理学术语。

It didn't actually become a psychological term until much, much later in the eighteen hundreds.

1898年，一位名叫哈夫洛克·埃利斯的理论家首次用纳西索斯的神话来描述他所接触的一种特定类型的客户或人。

In 1898, a theorist, his name was Havelock Ellis, was the first to use the narcissist myth to describe a particular kind of client or person he was seeing.

这些人基本上只是沉迷于自己。

People who were basically just obsessed with themselves.

对他来说，他们真的非常沉迷于自己，尤其是性方面。

And for him, they were really obsessed with themselves, like, sexually.

他们真的觉得自己是世界上最性感的人。

Like, they truly thought that they were the hottest thing out.

他们完全被自己占据，而他观察到了这种个体的模式。

They were really consumed by themselves and he was seeing this pattern of individual.

他也知道这个故事，正是这个故事让‘自恋’一词获得了它的名称。

He also knew the story, that is where narcissism originally got its label.

从那时起，像奥托·兰克和西格蒙德·弗洛伊德这样的精神分析学家进一步发展了这一观点，认为自恋更是一种人格的正常特征，而不仅仅局限于性方面，而是一个我们所有人都身处其中的谱系。

And from there, psychoanalysts like Otto Rank and Sigmund Freud expanded on this to say that narcissism was more of a normal characteristic of someone's personality rather than something that was exclusively sexual, and it was a spectrum that we all kind of sat upon.

我们每个人都会有点自恋，或者也可能自尊很低，完全不自恋。

All of us can be a little bit narcissistic, or all of us can have quite a low ego that makes us not narcissistic at all.

当这种特质变得失衡、扭曲，当某人的自恋程度远高于其他所有特质时，就会形成我们所熟悉的那种人。

When it becomes a little bit unbalanced and skewed and when somebody has more a bigger higher dosage, higher level of narcissism compared to all their other traits, that creates the type of person that we are familiar with.

那种我们称之为以扭曲的方式看待世界、与他人互动的人，因为他们是自恋者。

The one who we would say has a disordered way of seeing the world and engaging with others because they are a narcissist.

简单来说，自恋是一种人格特质，由一系列行为和较小的特质组成，比如第一，强烈的自我重要感。

So in simple terms, narcissism is a personality trait made up of a cluster of behaviors and smaller traits, like, one, a heightened sense of self importance.

第二，认为自己应得到特殊待遇。

Two, entitlement to special treatment.

第三，强烈需要被赞美。

Three, a strong need for admiration.

第四，缺乏同理心和利用他人的行为。

And four, low empathy and exploitative behavior.

更广泛地说，自恋通常被认为与对地位的追求密切相关。

More broadly, narcissism is often described as closely tied to the pursuit of status.

无论如何，这种个体内心都有一种驱动力，想要给人留下深刻印象，成为关注的中心，某种程度上在社交、情感或身体上不可触及。

No matter what, there is this drive within this individual to be impressive, to be the center of attention, to be kind of socially, emotionally, physically untouchable in some kind of way.

而这正是一个经常被混淆的关键点。

And that's one of the key points, I think, gets mixed up pretty often.

自恋不仅仅是自尊心高，认为自己了不起。

Narcissism is not just high self esteem and thinking that you are incredible.

因为有些人确实非常出色。

Because some people are really incredible.

有些人就是很酷，也很成功。

Some people are just really cool, and they're successful.

他们知道这一点，而且并不需要对此表现得谦虚。

And they know that, and they don't actually need to be humble about it.

健康的自尊就是我们所说的这种健康自尊。

Healthy self esteem is this you know, this is what we would label healthy self esteem.

他们对自己积极的判断基于真实的证据。

The basis for their positive for their positive kind of assumptions about themselves are based in evidence.

他们确实是个了不起的人。

They are actually an incredible person.

但这些人也能接受批评，能从失败中恢复，能从没有被选中中恢复。

But, also, these people can accept criticism, and they can bounce back from failure, and they can bounce back from not being chosen.

他们能从不需要在某件事上成为最好中恢复。

They can bounce back from not needing to be the best at something.

另一方面，自恋者可能表面上显得极其自信，也可能很成功，但其背后是一种深层的脆弱，这种脆弱导致他们拥有极不健康的自尊，这种自尊既源于自身的重要性感，也源于需要房间里所有人都认为他们很重要。

Narcissists, on the other hand, yes, may present as incredibly confident, yes, may be successful, but what's underneath that is a deep, deep fragility that gives them an incredibly unhealthy self esteem that is tied to equal parts their own sense of self importance, and then equal parts the need for everybody else in the room to see them as important.

这种脆弱性正是驱动防御、指责、控制和蔑视他人的根源。

And this fragility this fragility is what fuels defensiveness, blame, control, contempt for others.

他们必须不惜一切代价维护自我形象，因为一旦失去它，他们本质上只是一个极其脆弱、软弱、恐惧的人。

They need to maintain their self image at all costs because without it, they are just this very fragile, very weak, very scared individual underneath it all.

我们快速谈谈自恋型人格障碍与所谓的自恋特质之间的区别。

Let's talk about really quickly the distinction between having narcissistic personality disorder and having something that we call basically like having trait narcissism.

也就是说，只是具有较高程度的自恋特质，因为这两者截然不同。

So just a high level of narcissistic attributes because they are quite different.

自恋型人格障碍是一种真实存在的诊断。

Narcissistic personality disorder is a very real diagnosis.

有人可以在他们的档案中获得这个标签。

Somebody can get this label in their file.

正如我们所说，它最早出现在八十年代，但实际上并不常见。

And it was first introduced, as we said, in the eighties, but it's actually not that common.

我认为，自恋型人格障碍在人群中的患病率大约在百分之零点二到百分之零点六之间。

Narcissistic personality disorder, I think it has a prevalence of anywhere between zero point two to, like, zero point six percent of the population.

这主要基于美国人群的研究数据。

And that's mainly based on US population studies.

实际上，男性患此病的概率比女性高出百分之五十到百分之七十五。

It is actually around fifty to seventy five percent more common in males than females.

但有些人认为，这仅仅是因为女性可能比男性更善于隐藏这种特质，因为社会文化 conditioning 要求女性更谦逊，即使她们内心并非如此。

But some people have said that's just because women may be better at hiding it than men are because of this socially social conditioning to be more humble, even if that's not the way they truly feel.

然而，美国精神病学会强调的关键在于，要达到‘你有障碍、你有严重问题’这一程度，情况必须非常极端。

The key thing that the American Psychiatric Association highlights though is that, again, to get to this point of being like, you are disordered, you have a serious problem, something it has to be very drastic.

大多数人只有在经历了多次婚姻破裂后，才会得到这个诊断。

Most people don't get this diagnosis unless, you know, they've experienced several marriage breakdowns.

他们曾与司法系统有过接触。

They've come to contact with the court system.

他们曾是施虐的伴侣。

They have been an abusive partner.

实际上，要得到这个标签是相当困难的。

Like, it's quite difficult actually to get that label.

在大多数情况下，当我们遇到那些自视甚高、极度渴望显得成功和令人钦佩的人时，他们可能并没有诊断，也不符合诊断标准，但他们可能在我说的‘特质自恋’上得分很高。

In most cases, when we encounter somebody who thinks very highly of themselves, is desperate to seem successful and admirable, they may not have a diagnosis, they may not be worthy of a diagnosis, but they may be high in this thing that I just mentioned called trait narcissism.

特质自恋不是一种障碍，而是一种人格风格。

Trait narcissism is not a disorder, it's basically a personality style.

它是一组你可以得分高低的趋势，并不意味着你一定患有障碍。

It is a set of tendencies you can kind of score higher or lower on and doesn't automatically mean that again you have a disorder.

我们更常遇到的特质自恋，主要表现为两种非常宽泛的形式。

Trait narcissism, the thing that we are more commonly encountering, basically shows up in two very broad forms.

第一种是自恋型人格。

The first is grandiose narcissism.

这就是我们通常所理解的自恋形象。

So this is the typical idea of narcissism that we see.

自恋型人格表现为极度膨胀的自我。

Grandiose narcissism is the big inflated ego.

这是一种社会主导性。

It's social dominance.

这是一种超乎常人的个性。

It's this larger than life personality.

这些人有时显得非常迷人且极具说服力，但也可能非常具有攻击性且自以为是。

Sometimes these people can come off as really charming and really persuasive, but they can also be very aggressive and very entitled.

这正是我们最常听到的自恋概念。

This is the idea, again, we know most often.

我相信你一定能想到当前一些政治或文化领域的例子。

I'm sure you can think of a couple of political or cultural examples going on at the moment.

第二种独特的自恋形式是脆弱型自恋。

The second distinct form of narcissism is vulnerable narcissism.

这种人我们不一定总能注意到，但他们更具潜伏性，有时也更具破坏性。

This is the person that we don't always notice but who is a lot more insidious and sometimes harmful.

因为他们的行为模式并不像傲慢那样明显。

Because their pattern of behaviors doesn't look like arrogance.

实际上，这关乎情感上的不安全感和防御性。

Really, it's about emotional insecurity and defensiveness.

他们很容易受伤。

They are easily hurt.

他们很容易感到尴尬。

They are easily embarrassed.

他们很容易受到威胁。

They're easily threatened.

因此，他们最终会试图贬低你，试图情感操控周围环境，让自己始终扮演受害者，始终获得特殊待遇，无论如何都要成为关注的中心。

And so what they end up doing is trying to put you down, trying to emotionally manipulate their surroundings so that they are always the victim, so that they always get special treatment, so that no matter what, they are at the center of attention.

但有趣的是，他们之所以总处于关注的中心，并不总是因为他们的成就。

But what it it's this interesting thing where the reason they're at the center of attention center of attention isn't always because of their achievements.

有时是因为他们的痛苦和煎熬。

Sometimes it's because of their pain and suffering.

有时是因为他们总是拥有最戏剧化的故事，必须在房间里压过其他人。

Sometimes it's because they're the one who always has the most dramatic story that they need to one up everybody else in the room with.

这就是脆弱型自恋。

This is vulnerable narcissism.

现在情况变得更有趣了，因为心理学家已经意识到，仅仅用自大型和脆弱型自恋特质来区分仍不足以完全解释清楚。

Now here's where it gets even more interesting because psychologists have basically realized that just saying grandiose versus vulnerable trait narcissism still doesn't fully explain it.

因此，更近期的模型将其分解为三个核心组成部分。

So more recent models break it down into three core components.

构成一个人自恋人格的第一部分是敌对性。

The first component of what makes somebody's narcissistic personality is antagonism.

这种特质在自大型和脆弱型自恋中都会出现。

And this tends to show up in both grandiose and vulnerable narcissism.

敌对性表现为一种特权感、利用倾向，以及想要得到自己想要的东西的欲望。

Antagonism is that entitlement, that exploitiveness, that desire to get what you want.

当一个人认为规则不适用于自己，可以为所欲为，而周围的人不仅仅是人时，这就是敌对性的表现。

It's when there is an assumption from somebody that the rules don't apply to me, I can get away with whatever I want to, and the people around me, they're not just people.

他们只是资源。

They are resources.

他们是地位的象征。

They are status symbols.

他们是威胁。

They are threats.

他们是可被操控的对象。

They are something that can be manipulated.

我可以激怒他们。

I can antagonize them.

我可以操纵他们，让他们做我想让他们做的事。

I can manipulate them into doing what I want them to.

第二个组成部分被称为外向型主动性，这与自恋型自大更为密切相关。

Component two is something called agentic extraversion, and this is more commonly and closely linked to grandiose narcissism.

基本上就是社会主导性、果断性和魅力。

Basically, social dominance, assertiveness, charisma.

这看起来又像是一个需要成为领导者的人。

This, again, looks like somebody who needs to be the leader.

他们需要成为最令人印象深刻、最成功、最吵闹、在某种特定意义上最聪明的人。

They need to be the most impressive, successful person, the loudest person, the most the smartest person in a very specific kind of way.

而最后一个、也是第三个组成部分是自恋型神经质。

And then the final and third and final component is narcissistic neuroticism.

我知道我一直在反复强调这一点，但正是在这里，脆弱型自恋和自大型自恋产生了区别。

And this is where I know I'm really drilling home this point, but this is where vulnerable and grandiose narcissism differ.

因为患有脆弱型自恋的人可能不具备这种外向性，但他们会有对批评的极度敏感，以及一种近乎分裂的特质——我不想说‘多重人格’，因为那不是准确的说法，但确实会给人这样一种印象：这个人非常友善。

Because somebody with vulnerable narcissism might not have that extraversion, but what they will have is, this real sensitivity to criticism and almost this, like, split I don't wanna say split personality because it's that's not what it is, but it does give that appearance of this person is really nice.

他们如此纯真。

They're so innocent.

他们非常善良。

They're so kind.

他们非常可爱。

They're so lovely.

他们经历了这么多苦难。

They've had such a hard time.

当有人批评他们，当他们不再是焦点时，他们会痛下杀手。

And then when somebody does criticize them, when they are not the center of attention, they go in for the kill.

他们现在把你视为威胁。

They they see you now as a threat.

他们需要彻底摧毁你的品格。

They need to annihilate your character.

他们会变得非常防御。

They become very defensive.

他们会变得愤怒。

They become angry.

他们变得怨恨。

They become resentful.

他们变得退缩。

They become withdrawn.

这就是为什么，你知道，这两种人都有自恋特质，但表现得截然不同。

And this is why, you know, both those types of individuals have trait narcissism, but they look so different.

我认为我们所说的脆弱型自恋，是一种极其隐蔽的类型。

And I think that vulnerable narcissism we're talking about is the kind that, again, is so insidious.

你可能在与家人或朋友的关系中注意到这一点，你对这个人的体验与其他人完全不同，因为其他人还没能看穿这层伪装，还没意识到这些行为和这种人格模式的本质——即这个人必须成为最重要的人。

You maybe can notice it in the relationship you have with family members or a friend where you are having this very different experience to other people are having with this person because they haven't been able to see through this this kind of mask yet and see what these behaviors and this personality this pattern of personality really is, which is that this person needs to be the most important.

而以自大型的方式去实现这一点，可能对他们来说并不奏效。

And going about it the grandiose way maybe hasn't worked for them.

所以这是他们现在要采用的新方式。

So this is the new way they're gonna do it.

同样是通过情感操控，但采用的是另一种类型的情感操控。

Equally through emotional manipulation, but through a different kind of emotional manipulation.

那么，你该如何真正识别一个真正的自恋者呢？

So how do you actually spot a real narcissist?

我想在这里要特别谨慎。

I want to be really careful here.

你无法从外部诊断出自恋型人格障碍。

You you cannot diagnose narcissistic personality disorder from the outside.

你不能仅凭一次争吵就做出诊断，也绝对不能因为某人有点令人沮丧或有点自我中心就下定论。

You cannot diagnose it from one argument, And you definitely can't diagnose it from somebody just being a little bit frustrating or a little bit egocentric.

我们每个人在公共场合都难免会犯错。

We all mess up in public spaces sometimes.

我们每个人都会有那么一些自大的时刻。

We all have moments of being a little bit grandiose.

我们每个人也都曾主导过对话，或表现得有些自私。

We all have moments where we've definitely dominated a conversation or we've been a little bit selfish.

但这并不意味着一个人的思维方式就出现了障碍。

That doesn't necessarily give somebody a disordered way of thinking.

而且，除非这是一种持续的模式，否则这并不一定意味着他们的自恋特质得分很高。

And it doesn't necessarily make them high in trait narcissism unless it is a continued pattern.

即使如此，我也非常谨慎，不会轻易说这个人患有自恋型人格障碍。

And even then I would be very wary of saying this person has NPD.

我可能会说，这个人自恋特质较强。

I would probably say this person is high in narcissistic traits.

但如果你真的认为某人就是这样的人，并且在你的生活中扮演着这样的角色，这里有一些问题可以问自己。

But here are some questions to ask yourself if you genuinely think somebody is this and is this kind of force in your life.

第一。

One.

你认为这个人真的关心你吗？

Do you think this person actually cares about you?

还是他们只关心你能为他们做什么？

Or do they care about what you can do for them?

你相信这个人视你为平等的吗？

Do you believe this person sees you as their equal?

第二点。

Number two.

他们能很好地接受批评吗？

Do they take on board criticism well?

很简单。

Very easy.

第三点，他们是否总是处于中心位置，还是允许别人也分享聚光灯？

Number three, are they always at the center of things, or do they let people tag in to the spotlight?

第四点，他们是否适用不同于其他人的规则？

Number four, do different rules apply to them compared to everybody else?

你能从他们的行为中看出来吗？

And can you see that in their behavior?

第五点，他们是否必须比别人优越才能获得赞赏？

Number five, do they always need to be superior to be admired?

还是他们必须总是对的？

Or do they always have to be right?

即使这会牺牲你的尊严、声誉和福祉。

Even if it costs you your dignity and your reputation and your well-being.

基本上，你相信你们之间是真实的关系，还是你只是个色情品？

Basically, do you believe that you have a genuine relationship or are you just a porn?

我们在这里暂停一下。

Let's pause here.

这些问题很有用。

Those questions are useful.

我也知道你们很多人心里在想什么。

I also know what a lot of you guys are thinking.

天啊，如果那就是我怎么办？

Oh my god, what if that's me?

我是自恋者吗？

Am I a narcissist?

我有时确实不善于接受批评，我能感同身受。

I can relate to sometimes not taking criticism well.

我能理解有时候想要成为焦点的感觉。

I can relate to sometimes wanting the spotlight.

我喜欢自己是对的。

I like to be right.

每次我谈论自恋时，我总是觉得自己是个自恋者。

Every time I talk about narcissism, I always think that I'm a narcissist.

总是这样。

Always.

我不知道为什么。

I don't know why.

每次我制作一集节目或提到自恋时，总会有人问我或留言：‘这说的是我吗？’

And every time I make an episode or I mention narcissism, I always get questions and comments from people being like, is that me?

你能诊断我吗？

Can you can you diagnose me?

你能告诉我，我是不是这样的人吗？

Can you tell me if I'm one of these people?

所以我也会给你一份个人自检清单，帮助你排除或确认。

So I'm gonna give you a little bit of a personal checklist as well to rule out or rule in.

你可能是自恋者。

Maybe you are a narcissist.

但你很可能不是。

You're probably not.

但为了排除你很可能不是这种情况。

But to rule out that you are probably probably not.

你能道歉而不加‘但是你让我这样’吗？

Can you apologize without adding, but you made me?

是或不是？

Yes or no?

当你受到批评时，你真的在乎原因吗？

When you are criticized, do you genuinely care about why?

你是真心想改变自己的行为，还是只是攻击和回避？

Do you genuinely try to change your behavior, or do you just attack and deflect?

你是把人当作完整的个体来看待，还是仅仅当作观众？

Do you treat people as whole humans or just as an audience?

当你在某种情境下，比如工作中感到不安时，你会试图修复这个局面吗？

When you feel insecure, in a situation, at work, do you try and repair the situation?

你是会花时间反思自己的不安，还是只想在环境中压制他人？

Do you try and take time away and examine your insecurity, or do you just try and dominate other people in the space?

你能承认自己错了吗？

Can you be wrong?

你能承认自己错了吗？

Can you be wrong?

最近你有没有犯过错？

Have you been wrong in the last little while?

这是一个很好的检验标准。

It's a good it's a great litmus test.

你真的对别人的生活感兴趣吗？

Are you actually interested in other people's lives?

这就是试金石。

That is the litmus test.

每当这个想法浮现在我脑海时，我总会问自己或提醒别人这些问题。

Those are the questions that I always give people or always think of when that thought comes into my head.

我也知道，仅仅质疑自己‘我是不是自恋者？’

I also know even just questioning, am I a narcissist?

这向我、也向你们表明，你们很可能不是。

Shows shows me, shows you guys that you're probably not.

因为如果你真是自恋者，你的自我根本不会允许你去考虑这种可能性。

Because if you were a narcissist, your ego most likely wouldn't even let you consider that as a possibility.

所以这是一种奇妙的讽刺。

So it's this funny irony.

对吧？

Right?

觉得自己可能是，恰恰说明你并不是。

Thinking that you are probably means that you aren't.

你在这里非常安全。

You are very much safe here.

好的。

Okay.

我们先休息一下，因为接下来我们要跳出这个话题，谈谈为什么这个词在文化上突然爆红，以及我们作为社会是否真的变得越来越自恋，请继续关注。

Let's take a short break because after this, we need to zoom out and talk about why this word has exploded culturally and whether we are actually becoming more narcissistic as a society, so stay with us.

半夜里，萨斯娅在迷迷糊糊中醒了过来。

In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.

她的丈夫迈克正在用笔记本电脑。

Her husband Mike was on his laptop.

他屏幕上的内容将永远改变萨斯娅的人生。

What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.

我说，你必须告诉我你到底在做什么。

I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.

那一刻，面具立刻脱落了。

And immediately, the mask came off.

你本应感到安全。

You're supposed to be safe.

那是你的家。

That's your home.

那是你的丈夫。

That's your husband.

为了保守这个秘密，这么多年，他就像一个老练的高手。

To keep this secret, For so many years, he's like a seasoned pro.

这是一个关于婚姻终结的故事。

This is a story about the end of a marriage.

但这也是一个女人决定不再生活在黑暗中的故事。

But it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.

你是一个专门猎捕脆弱且信任他人之人的危险人物。

You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people.

你是个掠食者，迈克尔·列文·古德。

You're a predator, Michael Levin Good.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听《背叛》第五季。

Listen to Betrayal season five on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

当新闻头条无法解释你内心正在发生什么时，你会怎么做？

What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you?

我是本·希金斯。

I'm Ben Higgins.

如果你能听到我，那就是文化与灵魂交汇的地方，一个进行真实对话的空间。

And if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul, a place for real conversation.

每期节目，我都会与来自各行各业的人交谈，包括名人、思想家和普通人。

Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks.

我们会超越那些经过修饰的故事。

And we go deeper than the polished story.

我们会谈论是什么驱动着我们、塑造着我们，以及带给我们希望的东西。

We talk about what drives us, what shapes us and what gives us hope.

我们会坦诚地探讨那些重要的事：当你不再认识自己时的认同感，改变你的失去，当成功不再足够时的意义，当思绪无法平静时的平和，以及当信仰变得复杂时的信念。

We get honest about the big stuff, identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore, loss that changes you, purpose when success isn't enough, peace when your mind won't slow down, faith when it's complicated.

复杂的是，有些嘉宾有答案。

Complicated, some guests have answers.

但大多数人仍在摸索中。

Most are still figuring it out.

如果你曾觉得故事背后一定还有更多，那么这个节目就是为你准备的。

If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听《If You Can Hear Me》。

Listen to, if you can hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

中国国家安全部是全球最神秘且最具影响力的间谍机构之一。

China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world.

但在2017年，联邦调查局成功渗透了进去。

But in 2017, the FBI got inside.

这是特别探员雷加尔和特别探员布拉德利·霍尔。

This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall.

这名国安部官员并不知道美国政府已经盯上了他。

This MSS officer has no idea the US government is on to him.

但联邦调查局掌握了他所有的聊天记录、短信、电子邮件，甚至他的私人日记。

But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary.

收听第六局播客，了解他们是如何获取这些信息的。

Hear how they got it on the sixth Bureau podcast.

我现在拥有了这位 MSS 特工的数太字节数据，毫无疑问，这是他生活的全部记录。

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life.

这就是那只独角兽。

And that's the Unicorn.

从来没有人见过这样的东西。

No one had ever seen anything like that.

这简直难以置信。

It was unbelievable.

这是一个关于 MSS 内部运作的故事，讲述了一名男子的野心与失误如何打开了其秘密宝库。

This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS, and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts 或你收听播客的任何平台收听第六局。

Listen to the sixth bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是尹博文。

I'm Bowen Ying.

我是马特·罗杰斯。

And I'm Matt Rogers.

在《两个家伙，五个戒指》播客本季播出期间，随着米兰-科尔蒂纳2026年冬奥会的临近，我们邀请了一些朋友加入。

During this season of the two guys, five rings podcast in the lead up to the Milan Cortina twenty twenty six Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

嗨，尹博文。

Hi, Bowen.

嗨，马特。

Hi, Matt.

嗨，埃尔莫。

Hey, Elmo.

嗨，马特。

Hey, Matt.

嗨，尹博文。

Hey, Bowen.

你好，Cookie。

Hi, Cookie.

你好。

Hi.

现在冬季奥运会正在进行中，

Now the Winter Olympic Games are under way,

我们身处意大利，

and we are in Italy

将发自内心的经历传递到你的耳中。

to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或你收听播客的任何平台收听《两个男人，五枚戒指》。

Listen to two guys, five rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

如果心灵控制是真实的呢？

What if mind control is real?

如果你能控制他人的行为

If you could control the behavior

如果你能控制身边任何人的行为，你会希望拥有什么样的妻子？

of anybody around you, what kind of wife would you have?

你能通过催眠说服某人买一辆车吗？

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

当你看着你的车时，你会被一种极好的感觉淹没。

When you look at your car, you're gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

你能催眠某人和你发生关系吗？

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

我给了她一些建议，让她产生性兴奋。

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

你能让人加入你的邪教吗？

Can you get someone to join your cult?

有人用神经语言程序学（NLP）来接触我的潜意识。

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

神经语言程序学（NLP），即神经语言程序设计，是催眠、语言学和心理学的结合。

NLP, aka neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

粉丝们说，这就像终于拿到了大脑的用户手册。

Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

这是关于意识的工程。

It's about engineering consciousness.

《思维游戏》讲述了NLP的故事，以及它那群疯狂的追随者，还有那位在新时代公社发明NLP并将其卖给西装革履人士的假医生。

Mind Games is the story of NLP, its crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits.

他曾因谋杀受审，但被判无罪。

He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.

最大的思维游戏是什么？

The biggest mind game of all?

NLP可能真的有效。

NLP might actually work.

这太疯狂了。

This is wild.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或你收听播客的任何平台收听《思维游戏》。

Listen to mind games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

所以我们现在听到‘自恋’这个词的频率高多了。

So we are obviously hearing the term narcissism a whole lot more.

这是因为在社会中自恋现象真的增加了，还是仅仅因为它变成了一种潮流？

Is that because narcissism is actually increasing in society or just because it's become a bit of a a phenomena?

因为它已经变成了一种令人着迷的话题。

Because it's just become a source of of fascination.

问题是，研究者们其实并不确定，因为社会变得更加个人主义了。

The thing is researchers aren't really that sure because society has become more individualistic.

随着社交媒体的兴起，社会也变得更加包容自恋倾向。

It has become more narcissist friendly with the rise of social media.

这是否意味着自恋的声音或自恋者获得了更多的关注？

Is that just meaning that narcissistic voices or narcissistic individuals, they are getting more of a spotlight?

还是说自恋的实际普遍性确实在上升？

Or is the underlying prevalence actually increasing?

因此，在2008年，圣地亚哥州立大学的研究人员发表了他们数十年来对此问题的研究成果。

So in 2008, researchers from San Diego State University, they published their decades long findings on this very question.