本集简介
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仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
这是iHeart的一档播客。
This is an iHeart podcast.
百分百真人录制。
Guaranteed human.
大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我们是乔纳斯兄弟。
It's the Jonas Brothers.
如果你还不知道，我们的新播客叫《嘿，乔纳斯》。
If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
这周，我们邀请了一位特别崇拜的嘉宾。
And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
米莉·博比·布朗。
Millie Bobby Brown.
我们聊了她的新电影《福尔摩斯小姐3》，还有家庭生活，以及她目前正在做的各种精彩事情。
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes three, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
另外，我们还会聊聊她对于
Plus, we find out what she really feels about
《怪奇物语》大结局的真实看法。
the stranger things ending.
你养了超过六十只动物。
You have over 60 animals.
我不确定这个数字是怎么算出来的。
I don't know where the number 60.
我确实得好好琢磨琢磨这事儿。
I really gotta figure that out.
我床上可没少进过羊。
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.
对。
Yeah.
是真的睡在床上那种。
Literally sleeping in the bed.
收听海耶·乔纳斯的节目
Listen to hey Jonas on
在 iHeartRadio 应用或 Apple 播客上
the iheart radio app Apple podcast
或者你平时听播客的任何平台
or wherever you get your podcast.
快乐至关重要，却难以捉摸，但现在有一种全新而令人兴奋的方式开启你的快乐之旅：打开免费的 iHeartRadio 应用，搜索“joy101”，立即收听。由 CBS 呈现的《Joy 101》与霍达·科蒂共同主持。
Joy is essential and it's also elusive but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey we're And going to open your free iheart radio app search joy We're one zero one and listen now joy one zero one with hoda kotpi is presented by CBS.
我的第一位嘉宾是来到现场的希尔顿·夏奇拉。
My first guest is here at Hilton Shakira.
卢克和艾琳。
Luke and Irene.
你们准备了惊喜吗？
You have surprises?
很多惊喜。
Many surprises.
嗨，怎么样？
What up?
欢迎来到《甜蜜305》
Welcome to the Sweet three zero
这个播客让群聊活了起来。
five podcast where the group chat comes to life.
嗨，怎么样？
What up?
你是唯一一个喜欢黄色星爆糖的人。
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst.
柠檬味的。
Lemonade.
这里是《甜蜜305》。
This is sweet three zero five.
在这里，敞开心扉分享是被鼓励的。
Here, oversharing is encouraged.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何平台收听《Sweet 305》节目，主持人是 Le Le Pons。
Listen to sweet three zero five with Le Le Pons on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我老公现在正和他情人在度假村，我正打电话给酒店，准备当面质问他们俩。
My husband is at a spa resort with his mistress right now, and I'm calling the hotel to confront them both.
等一下，达科塔。
Wait a minute, Dakota.
她是在他们一起入住的时候，直接打给酒店的？
She's calling the hotel while they're checked in together?
是的。
Yeah.
没错，索菲亚。
That's right, Sofia.
事情还没完，更糟的还在后头。
And it gets worse.
这事儿发生在《OKStorytime》播客里，她发现他还在亚马逊上买礼物，然后在他行李里塞了一封十页长的信，等他一登机就曝光了。
It's vacate the vacation week on the OKStorytime podcast, where she caught him buying gifts on Amazon and then taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out.
所以她还没等他出发就提前布置了证据？
So she planted evidence before he even took off?
而且剧透一下，索菲亚，两年后，报应来得特别狠，他哭着给前妻打电话，说起了那个情人。
And spoiler, Sofia, two years later, karma hits so hard, he's calling his ex wife in tears saying about his mistress.
真是个天大的错误。
What a mistake that was.
想知道后来发生了什么？去iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客，或者你常用的播客平台收听《Okay Storytime》。
To find out what happened, listen to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
我是杰克·布雷南。
I'm Jake Brennan.
在《Disgraceland》播客里，我深入挖掘摇滚明星那些荒唐的谎言，以及音乐史上那些令人难以置信的真实犯罪故事。
And on the Disgraceland Podcast, I explore the wild lies of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history.
这些都是你没听过的传闻，听完你肯定会讲给别人听。
These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else.
比如保罗·麦卡特尼曾经被关进过臭名昭著的监狱，或者女神卡卡被指控的离奇罪行，还有金发女郎黛比·哈里是怎么从特德·邦尼手里逃脱的。
Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of or that time blondies Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客，或者你常用的播客平台收听《Disgraceland》。
Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
我是杰玛·斯派克，欢迎回到《二十岁心理学》这个节目，我们在这里聊聊二十多岁人生中那些最重要的变化、时刻与转折，以及它们对心理的影响。
I'm Jemma Spike, and welcome back to the psychologyofyour20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
欢迎回来继续收听。
Welcome back to the show.
欢迎回来听我们的播客。
Welcome back to the podcast.
很高兴你在这里。
It is so great to have you here.
你，当然了，又回来听下一集，我们一起剖析二十多岁的心理历程。
You, specifically, of course, back for another episode as we break down the psychology of our twenties.
在开始之前先提醒一下，你们现在听的这一集，其实也在Netflix全球上线了，我们所有的其他集数也都以视频形式在Netflix上提供了。
Quick reminder before we start, this episode you are currently listening to is also on Netflix worldwide, as are actually all of our other episodes in video form.
如果你更喜欢看播客，或者想一边打扫、健身、在家工作的时候听我絮絮叨叨，那就去简介里点链接，看一集完整的Netflix视频吧。
So if you are someone who prefers to watch your podcast or to have me kind of talking away in the background whilst you're cleaning at the gym, working from home, whatever it is, go and check out the link in the description and you can watch a full Netflix episode.
咱们正式开始吧。
Let's get into it.
这一集我们先来聊一个话题，你先听我说。
We're gonna begin this episode with a hear me out.
你先听我说。
Hear me out.
二十多岁最棒的事，就是意识到自己已经不再是过去的那个自己了。
The best part of being in your twenties is realizing you are not the person that you once were.
最让人无奈的是，不管你多想回去，多努力尝试，都再也回不去了。
The worst part is realizing once more that you can never be those people again no matter how hard you try or how much you wanna go back.
这大概是这十年里最令人心酸又感慨的感受了。
It is probably the most bittersweet feeling of this decade.
超越旧生活带来的阵痛。
The pain of outgrowing your old life.
甜是因为你在成长，正变成一个更成熟、更踏实、更了解自己的人；苦是因为长大意味着不断跟那些代表过去自我的东西告别，只盼着下一章能更好。
Sweet because you're evolving, you're stepping into probably a more mature, concrete, self aware version of you, bitter because part of growing up is having to say goodbye over and over again to certain things that represented who you once were and just kind of hoping that the next chapter is better.
这种事总会发生。
This happens.
这种感受，这种现象，会在你二十多岁的几个关键节点出现。
This feeling, this phenomena occurs at some very critical points in our twenties.
比如大学毕业的时候，我记得毕业那天，心里有种深深的失落感——再也不会和朋友们做邻居了。
Like, when we graduate college or university, I remember graduating and there being this, like, deep sadness that, you know, I'm never gonna live next door to my friends ever again.
再也不会有那些初识彼此的夜晚，一切都新鲜、明亮，又不那么沉重。
I'm never gonna have those same moments and nights where you're like getting to know people for the first time and like everything is shiny and new and not that serious.
那时候你的全部任务，就是读书。
And like your whole job is just to study.
那种感觉，再也不会原封不动地重现了。
Like, I'd never get to relive this exactly as it was.
这对很多人来说都是个很大的触动。
That's a big one for many people.
当我们和别人分手时，也可能出现这种感觉。
It can also happen when we break up with somebody.
你是在为过去的自己哀悼。
You know, you're grieving this old version of you.
你哀悼的是那个你原本以为会拥有的生活，而它却迅速瓦解了。
You're grieving the life you thought you'd have and it kind of disintegrates very quickly.
辞职、搬离城市、失去朋友，甚至失去亲人，都是如此。
Same with when we quit jobs, when we leave cities, when we lose friends, even loved ones.
但超越旧自我的痛苦，很多时候也悄然发生，就在你突然意识到的时候：等等，不对劲。
But the pain of outgrowing your old life also happens a lot more quietly as we kind of realize like, hey, wait a second.
我已经不是六个月前、两年前、五年前的那个我了。
I'm not who I was six months ago or two years ago or five years ago.
这到底是好事，还是坏事呢？
Is that a good thing or is that a bad thing?
今天，咱们先来好好聊聊这种感觉。
Today, we are going to explore that feeling for a second.
成长过程中告别过去的生活为什么会让人痛苦？从心理上说，这种痛苦或许在某种意义上反而是好事，我们又该怎么坦然接受这种不断变化的自我呢？因为这种变化，我们一生中会一再经历。
The pain of outgrowing your old life, why it hurts psychologically, why the pain is perhaps a good thing in a strange way, and how to just lean into this constant evolution of the self that we're gonna experience time and time again.
别太紧抓着过去不放，否则你可能会错过那个未来——它很可能无比精彩、令人惊喜。
And I guess not cling on too too tightly to the past and miss out what will hopefully be an absolutely incredible amazing future for you.
所以，要说的内容真的很多。
So, yeah, there's so much to cover.
这里面涉及不少心理学知识。
There's a lot of psychology.
还有很多概念值得深入探讨。
There's a lot of concepts in this as well.
和往常一样，咱们这就开始吧。
So as always, let's get into it.
先从这一点说起。
Let's start with this.
有哪些明显的迹象，或者现在想想其实没那么明显，但确实存在的迹象，表明你曾经热爱、觉得安心的生活，已经不再适合你了？
What are some clear signs or maybe actually less than clear now that I think about it, but signs nonetheless that the life you used to have and love and feel safe in is now one that you've outgrown?
首先，一个很明显的事实是，你之所以知道自己已经超越了过去的生活，是因为发生了一些显著的转变或重大人生事件，彻底改变了你的生活轨迹。
Firstly, there is the very obvious fact that you know you've you've outgrown your old life because there has been a notable change, transition, major life event that has rapidly shifted timelines for you.
我们开头提到了一些，但二十多岁时常见的还有：失去亲人、失业、遭遇严重的健康问题，甚至包括正面的改变，比如换了新工作、开始一段新恋情、结婚。
We mentioned a few at the beginning, but some other big ones that we experience in our twenties are like things like grief, losing your job, having a big maybe quite scary health change, health scare, even positive things like a new job, starting a new relationship, getting married.
你会有一种感觉，一切都变了。
There's a feeling that everything's changed.
然后你意识到，好吧，
And there's a recognition of like, okay.
我已经跨过了一道界限，再也回不去了。
I've crossed over a certain threshold that now I cannot go back on.
就算我回去，也回不到原来的样子了。
Even if I were to go back, it wouldn't be the same.
这听起来可能有点奇怪，但几周前，我童年时养的那条狗去世了，我就经历了这样的事。
This may sound strange, but this happened to me a few weeks ago when my childhood dog passed away.
就像我说的，对我来说，那是一个清晰的分水岭，标志着从前和之后。
Like I said, for me, it was a very clear moment in time that marked like a before and after.
从我十岁上小学开始，他就一直陪在我身边，一直到高中、大学。
You know, I had him in my life since I was 10 years old from primary school to high school to university.
后来我搬到悉尼，找到第一份全职工作，又辞掉了那份工作，他都一直在。
Then when I moved to Sydney, then when I had my first full time job, when I quit that job.
他 literally 陪我从童年一直走到我搬到伦敦。
Literally, he lasted from when I was a child to when I moved to London.
他的离世，让我突然意识到，我的旧生活、我的童年，真的结束了。
And his death was like this moment of realization of like my old life, my childhood is officially over.
再回不去了。
Like, there's no there's no going back.
那对我来说是个很大的转折点。
So that was a big moment for me.
致敬Yo Yo。
Shout out to Yo Yo.
这一集献给Yo Yo，史上最棒的狗狗。
This episode is dedicated to Yo Yo, the best dog ever.
而且确实如此。
And it definitely yeah.
我又一次强烈地意识到，我已经不再是那个我了，永远不可能再回去。
Again, this feeling in in me of, like, this huge recognition of, like, I am no longer that person and I can never be that person again.
这话题突然变得伤感了。
So that took a a sad turn.
但有时候，人生确实会经历一种剧烈的转折，让人看清一切，也标志着某段时光的终结。
But, yes, sometimes there is kind of an intense timeline shift that brings perspective, also signifies the end of something.
不过更常见的是，这种变化并不那么剧烈，而是一种缓慢的觉醒。
More subtly, though, sometimes it's a less of, like, an intense rupture and more of a slow recognition.
它来得更隐蔽。
It's more subtle.
是你日常习惯、人际关系中那些细微的改变。
It's small changes in your routines, in your relationships.
你可能会突然意识到，哦，我再也不怎么见那些以前常在一起的人了。
You may suddenly realize like, oh, I don't really see the people that I used to.
现在我的夜晚完全不一样了。
My nights look very different now.
很多我的爱好都变了。
Like, a lot of my hobbies have changed.
连我穿衣服的方式都不一样了。
Even how I dress has changed.
我对什么是乐趣的看法也变了。
My idea of fun is different.
总的来说，你的价值观或生活方式经历了一些个人转变，这些变化慢慢渗透进了你的日常习惯中。
Basically, there has been some personal evolution in terms of your values or your lifestyle that has slowly filtered into your habits and patterns over time.
这可能会带来一些紧张感。
This can create some tension.
我觉得，如果你的环境没变，但你自己已经不再适合它了。
I think if your environment remains the same, but you no longer fit in it.
当你和身边的人，或者你所处的生活状态出现脱节时，你可能会开始觉得，现在的环境根本不属于你。
When there's a disalignment between you and the people you're around or the life that you're in, you may also start to feel out of place where you are now.
有点无聊，有点被困住，又有点坐立不安。
A bit bored, a bit stuck, a bit restless.
我不确定心理学里有没有专门的词来形容，但在你的人生即将发生重大转变之前，你会经历一种我称之为‘排在下一个’的焦躁感。
I don't know if there's a psychology term for this, but right before your life is about to change remarkably, you will experience what I call next in line jitters.
这是一种像在等候室里的感觉——你内心清楚，一场深刻的、心灵层面的情感转变就要来了，但偏偏还没轮到你。
This is this weird waiting room sensation where part of you instinctively knows you're about to experience like a deep psychological, soulful, emotional transformation, but it's just not your turn yet.
这感觉真不好形容。
I don't like, it's a hard feeling to describe.
我只能说，它就像长途航班即将降落前的最后一小时。
The best way I can describe it is the hour before a long haul flight lands.
你知道马上就要落地了，知道接下来会发生什么，但偏偏得熬过人生中最难熬的那段时间——你没法放松，什么都做不了，就是特别别扭。
And you like, you know you're about to land, you know what's coming, but like, you have to last the longest period of your life where like, you can't really get comfortable, you can't really do anything, and it just feels very, very strange.
那种‘排在下一个’的感觉，就是这样。
That's what next in line, June's really feels like.
也许我的比喻不太贴切，但我觉得最接近的心理学术语是‘发展性失衡’。
Maybe my metaphor doesn't make sense, but I think the closest psychological term for it is developmental disequilibrium.
这原本是耶鲁大学盖塞尔儿童发展研究所提出的一个儿童心理学概念。
It's actually a child psychology term that comes from the Yale Gesell Institute of Child Development.
但我认为它同样适用于成年人，尤其是二十多岁的人。
And I think it definitely can also apply to adults and especially people in their twenties as well.
这个理论的核心是，就在你即将迎来重大成长阶段时，你的行为反而会暂时倒退。
Basically, what this term or this theory says is right as you're on the verge of, like, a major growth spurt, your behavior starts to almost regress.
在迎来飞跃之前，我们会经历一种看似倒退的状态——行为、生活方式和态度都变得不稳定。
So we experience what feels like a drawback in our behavior, in our lifestyle, in our attitudes before we are kinda shot forward.
这种莫名的疏离感，其实是个好兆头。
And that strange feeling of displacement is a good thing.
它意味着改变即将来临。
It's a sign that change is coming.
你只是还没完全到达那一步而已。
You're just not quite there yet.
但正如我们之前说的，这虽然是好事，往往也伴随着很多失落感。
But it's also as much as it is a good thing, it's often accompanied by a lot of grief as well as we spoke about.
我觉得，这正是你正在超越旧生活的最明显信号。
And I think this is the biggest sign that you're outgrowing your old life.
你知道吗？即使它很美好，也一样会让人痛苦。
You know, it's painful even if it's beautiful.
你现在正经历这一切，最明显的迹象就是你心里有感觉。
Often the greatest sign that you're going through this right now is that you just feel it.
对吧？
Right?
你总觉得哪儿不太对劲。
You feel a little bit off.
你感到难过。
You feel sad.
也许你没法给这种感觉贴个标签，也说不清它到底是什么，但你就是觉得，自己不再是原来的自己了。
Maybe you don't have the exact kind of box to place it in or way to categorize it, but you definitely don't feel like yourself.
我们以前聊过很多次了，人类的大脑天生就抗拒大规模的改变。
We've spoken about this before a lot of times, but the human brain has a natural aversion to large scale change.
它喜欢新鲜感。
It likes novelty.
当然，它也喜欢一点小挑战。
It likes a little bit of a challenge for sure.
但当你突然摆脱了曾经让你安心的生活，那种突如其来的不确定性，会让大脑根本没法拼出现在的自己究竟是谁。
But that rapid uncertainty of outgrowing a life that you felt comfortable in creates so many unknowns all at once that our mind can't really piece together the story of who we are right now.
就像哈佛研究者说的，大脑最大的毛病就是想掌控一切。
In the words of of Harvard researchers, if your brain has one major vice, it is control.
可眼下，这种掌控感几乎荡然无存。
And there is very little of it.
在这个转变的阶段，你根本掌控不了什么。
There is very little control right now in this period of change.
再加上失去过去那些东西、再也回不去了，这种失落感会带来真实的情感和心理痛苦，疼得就像身体受伤一样。
And that combined with the loss of what once was and just the fact you can't have it anymore does create a very real emotional and psychological pain that can be felt like real pain.
我觉得这种痛苦最贴切的描述就是这句话：转变的过程，本质上是一场衰败。
I think the pain is best described by this quote, the process of transformation consists mostly of decay.
这句话出自丽贝卡·索尔尼特的《迷失的指南》。
This is from Rebecca Solnit's book, A Field Guide to Getting Lost.
她所描述的，其实是心理学和社会学里一个叫‘阈限状态’的现象。
And what she's basically describing is a phenomenon known in psychology and sociology as liminality.
那就是你过去是谁和你即将成为谁之间的临界点，必须让旧的自我几乎完全消亡，新的自我才能诞生。
The threshold between who you were and who you are becoming that requires almost a full death of the old self before the new self can emerge.
著名的心理分析师荣格——我们在几乎每一集都会提到他——对此也有深刻见解，他称之为‘死亡与重生’的原型：我们得不断经历内在的小小死亡，才能迎来新生与成长。
The very, very famous psychoanalyst Carl Jung, who we speak about in basically every single episode, He, of course, had things to say about this, and he spoke about it as the death and rebirth archetype where we basically have to constantly experience small deaths within us to bring about newness and growth.
没有这些‘死亡’，就不可能有这种转变。
Without those deaths, we cannot have that.
他认为，这个过程对个体化至关重要。
And he claimed that this process was incredibly important for individuation.
个体化，本质上就是一生中不断探索真实自我的心理旅程。
Individuation is essentially the lifelong psychological journey of discovering your authentic identity.
这就是痛苦的实质。
This is what the pain is.
你现在感受到的这种痛苦，正是新成长所必需的蜕变过程。
This pain that you're experiencing right now, it is the decay that is required for the new growth.
尤其值得注意的是，如果你现在正经历这一切，感觉像漂浮的浮渣，完全没有方向，那你要知道，摆脱旧生活所带来的痛苦通常是分阶段发生的，而且它终有尽头。
Now something especially interesting to know, particularly if you're going through this right now and you're just kind of like floating flotsam, like you really don't have an anchor, something interesting to know is that the pain of outgrowing your old life often occurs in stages, and it does have an endpoint.
关于这一点，最著名的理论是阿诺德·范·热纳姆的三阶段成年礼模型，但我更倾向于把它看作七个阶段。
The biggest theory on this is Arnold Van Jemma's threefold model of the rites of passage, but I like to think of it as having seven stages in particular.
我们先从他的理论说起。
We're gonna start with his theory.
他是这方面的权威。
He's the expert.
范·热纳姆是一位法国人类学家和民俗学家。
Basically, Van Jemma, he was a French ethnographer and folklorist.
他喜欢通过故事和文化运作的方式去理解人类。
So, like, he liked to understand humanity by looking at stories and the way that cultures functioned.
在他的研究中，他发现几乎在所有社会和文化里，当人们进入人生的新阶段或新角色时，总会发生这三件事。
And throughout his work, he kind of noticed that in almost all societies and cultures, as people transitioned into new seasons of life or new roles, the same three things almost always happened.
首先是分离。
There was separation.
然后是过渡，也就是我们常说的模糊地带，最后是融入。
There was transition or the liminal space we speak about, and then there was incorporation.
最贴切的例子就是毕业。
The example that suits this best is, like, graduation, for example.
毕业典礼本身就是一个分离的仪式。
There's the separation that is seen through the formality of the graduation ceremony.
你会拿到一张文凭，可能还有一张巨额账单。
You receive a diploma, probably also a big fat bill.
就连帽子上流苏的转动，都象征着你已经告别了这个机构，彻底脱离了过去。
Even like the separation is signified even by the turning of the tassels on the hats, like showing that you've separated, you've exited this institution.
接下来是过渡期，可能在你找到工作之前，或者还不清楚下一步该去哪的时候，你失去了过去依赖的所有结构，却还没建立起新的依靠。
Then there is the period of transition, maybe before you start work or before you know what's gonna come next where you've lost all the structure that you relied upon in the past and that you become accustomed to, and you don't really have anything else to rely on in the future.
你就会突然陷入一片迷茫，脑子里全是问题：这事儿能成吗？我接下来该干嘛？
You're kind of left with a lot of confusion, thoughts, questions about is this gonna work out or not, what am I gonna do.
然后他说，慢慢地，人会重新融入新的生活。
And then he says there's slowly this reintegration.
一点一点把碎片拼起来，找回自己的位置，明白自己现在到底在哪。
You kind of piece things together, you reintegrate, you get a sense of like where you are now.
他还提到，结婚、婚礼，还有参军，都像是这么个过程。
He also spoke about marriage being like this as well or a wedding being like this, joining the military being like this.
别忘了，他活跃在二十世纪初那会儿。
Remember, he was kinda like riding around the time of like the early nineteen hundreds.
那时候的文化背景里，他亲身经历了几场重大的战争。
So a huge part of culture at that time, like he lived through some very significant wars.
所以对当时的人来说，参军大概是最直观的例子了。
So people going to the army was probably the most obvious example for him.
这就是他提出的成年礼三阶段理论：分离、过渡、重新融入。
So that was his theory of the rites of passage, separation, transition, reintegration.
正如我之前说的，我觉得这个过程还包含更多阶段。
As I've said, I see this as occurring in a few more stages.
我觉得它可能没那么明确，也没那么简单，不像只有三个步骤那样。
I think it's probably a little bit less concrete and simple than three steps.
我觉得，当你超越过去的生活时，那种痛苦会经历七个阶段。
I think the pain of outgrowing your old life happens in seven.
第一个阶段，也是你进入转变期的第一个信号，就是怀旧情绪增强。
The first stage and the first sign that you are entering into this period of transformation is stage one, which is increased nostalgia.
你会开始意识到，自己真的很怀念过去那种习以为常的感觉。
So you begin to realize you're really missing what used to feel normal.
你开始回忆过去的样子，而不是现在的样子。
You're beginning to remember things kinda as they were, not as they are.
随之而来的，是对时光流逝的觉察，以及更深一层的领悟——天啊。
And with that becomes the acknowledgment of the passing of time and just kind of the deeper understanding that, like, oh my gosh.
如果你开始怀旧，那就说明你已经失去那些东西了。
If I'm feeling nostalgic, it means that I don't have this anymore.
事情已经不一样了。
Things have changed.
这种感觉真是又甜又苦。
That's the bittersweet feeling.
接下来是第二阶段，也就是悲伤。
This is followed though by stage two, which is the grief.
我发现，怀旧这种情绪是可以随时进出的。
Nostalgia is something you can kind of dip in and out of, I found.
关于这个，有很多研究，包括2023年一篇题为《在情绪中定位怀旧：从失去通往爱的桥梁》的论文。
There's so many studies on this, including one from 2023 titled locating nostalgia among the emotions, a bridge from loss to love.
作者在文中提到，怀旧是一种罕见的情绪，既不完全是正面的，也不完全是负面的。
And in it, the author talks about how nostalgia is one of those rare emotions that's neither positive or negative.
它自成一体，存在于一个独特的位置。
It kind of exists in its own space.
但悲伤，至少在初期，就像一堵厚厚的墙，压得人透不过气。
Grief though, at least in its early stages, is just like a big brick wall of sadness and loss.
这时候事情就真正变得严峻了。
This is like when shit kinda gets real.
以前怀旧的时候，会觉得有点难过，但又隐隐有点温暖。
Like, nostalgia was like, oh, I feel sad, but I'm kind of happy.
到了悲伤这一步，才真正接受一个事实：生活再也回不去了。
The grief stage is like, oh, I'm I'm really coming to terms with the fact that life is never gonna be the same.
这过程中可能还夹杂着恐慌，这就是第三阶段——真空期，也就是我们之前说的过渡空间。
There's probably also some panic in that as well, and that is when we enter stage three, which is the vacuum stage, also the liminal space that we spoke about before.
这是人感觉最糟糕的阶段，说实话，你现在很可能就处在这里。
This stage is where we feel our just absolute worst, and it is likely where you are right now, if I'm being honest.
眼下几乎没什么可以依靠的了。
There is very little to hold on to.
我觉得最好的形容就是，你一路都在失去，得到的却少得可怜。
It feels like I think the best way to describe it is that you've only lost and you've gained very little.
到目前为止，你一直在不断失去。
You're just losing up into this point.
你再也回不到过去的状态了。
You don't have what you had in the past.
未来会怎样，你现在也完全不清楚。
You also don't know what is in the future yet.
你只是觉得，对眼下的一切都失去了掌控感。
You just have the sense that you lack possession over your current state.
你的生活，好像已经不再属于你了。
Your life maybe doesn't feel like it's yours anymore.
你得在这状态里待多久，这是个关键问题，答案却很模糊——关键看你多快能适应下一阶段，也就是责任阶段或接纳阶段。
How long you stay in this state is like the million dollar question, and it has a very ambiguous answer, which is that it really depends on how well you can adjust to the next stage, which is the responsibility stage or the acceptance stage.
在这个阶段，你开始真正面对现实。
In this period, you really begin to come to terms with the facts of the situation.
总得有个时候，你得承认：不行，我再也做不回那个自己了。
Like, at some stage you have to just you have to just accept like, no, I can never be that person again.
我回不去了。
No, I cannot go back there.
不，过去已经没法改变了。
No, there's no change in the past.
是啊，这确实让人难过。
Yes, that is sad.
为这个感到悲伤是完全正常的。
Yes, it is okay to grieve that.
那我现在该怎么办？
Now, what am I gonna do about it?
我该改变些什么？
What am I gonna change?
你不可能永远停留在这种模糊的状态里。
Because you can't stay in that liminal space forever.
我跟你说真的。
Trust me.
有些人确实会这样，但那些人往往最不快乐，因为他们一直陷在过去，完全看不到自己对未来的责任和掌控力。
I think there are some people who do, and those are the people who seem least happy with their lives because they're just so fixated on the past and they're just so unable to see their own role and their agency over the future.
比如你家乡那个总想重温高中时光的人，或者一直走不出痛苦离婚阴影的人。
Some examples of this are like the dude from your hometown who just wants to relive high school, the person who, like, can't get over their bitter divorce.
他们并不是真想一直这样下去。
It's not like they wanna be that way.
只是前两个阶段的悲伤和怀旧太强烈了，让他们没法迈入第三阶段——也就是承担责任和接受现实的阶段。
It's just that the grief and the nostalgia of the first two stages are too strong that they're unable to get to stage three, is the responsibility and acceptance stage.
这确实是个让人不舒服的真相。
It's an uncomfortable reality.
迟早你得学会放手，不然就会被生活拖着走。
At some point, you either let go or you get dragged behind.
关键在于意识到：你有能力掌控未来，能让接下来的日子不输从前。
The shift between one or the other is realizing that you have self efficacy, you have agency in making what comes next as good as it was before.
那之后会发生什么？
So what happens after this?
最后三个阶段是什么？
What are the three final stages?
你可能在想，咱们得歇一会儿，但回来之后，我们会好好聊聊这些，还有更多内容。
You may be thinking, we have to take a short break here, but when we come back, we're gonna talk about all of that and so much more.
别走开，继续关注我们。
Stay with us.
《播客的喜悦》第101期，我是霍达·考特。如果你了解我，就知道我一直在寻找灵感、支持和实用工具，来最大化生活中的快乐。这档播客就是让我们一起发掘这些内容，我们会与世界上最有趣的人展开深度对话，比如演员奥利维亚·穆恩分享了她如何战胜了从未预料到的严重健康问题。
The cost of the podcast joy, one zero one with hoda caught me okay, if you know me you know this, I'm always searching for inspiration for support and useful tools to help maximize joy so this podcast lets us uncover all of that together we're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming.
我经历过癌症，也陪母亲走过乳腺癌，那更难熬。
I've gone through cancer and help my mother to breast cancer and that was more difficult.
很多人能理解产后抑郁，但对产后焦虑却毫无准备。
There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression, was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.
奥运冠军肖恩·约翰逊透露，她根本别无选择，只能当体操运动员。
Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast
体操有一种让我着迷的东西，它让我相信，我们每个人内心都藏着这样一份珍宝。
there was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me that's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us.
我们只需要找到它。
We just have to find it.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或其他任何播客平台收听《快乐101》。
Listen to joy one zero one with on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我丈夫现在正和情妇一起度假，而我正准备当面质问他们。
My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress, and I'm confronting them.
告诉我，索菲亚，你是怎么发现他们的？
Tell me, Sofia, how did she even catch them?
一张亚马逊的购物小票。
One Amazon shopping receipt.
他不小心发给她一张照片，上面是孩子的圣诞礼物，收货地址却是另一个女人。
He accidentally sent her a photo of the kid's Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom.
他这是自己暴露了？
He exposed himself?
这可是新手才会犯的错。
That's a rookie move.
还有双人按摩、带名字缩写的浴袍，还有他特意买给她的情趣内衣。
Couples massages, monogrammed bathrobes, and lingerie he memoed her for.
所以她花了四周时间收集证据，然后在他行李里塞了一封十页的信，等他出发前才放进去。
So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out.
他行李里，她亲自登场了。
In his luggage, she came to play.
他一落地，就立刻把她拉黑了。
And the second he landed, he blocked her.
于是她直接拨通了酒店房间，跟小三当面通话。
So she called the hotel room directly and got the mistress on the phone.
哦，她直接跟小三打通了电话。
Oh, she got the mistress live on the phone.
这招可真够大胆的。
That is a bold move.
咱们看看这招能不能奏效。
Let's see if it pays off.
事情还没完，变得更糟了。
Then it gets worse.
他带着情妇去了原本计划和妻子一起去的巴哈马蜜月旅行。
He took the mistress on The Bahamas honeymoon trip he had planned with his wife.
然后情妇在Facebook上标记了他，把这件事公开给了她全家。
And then the mistress tagged him on Facebook, outing the fair to her entire family.
这简直等于当众自首了。
That's like a whole public confession.
剧透一下，两年后，报应狠狠找上了他。
And spoiler, two years later, karma hits him so hard.
他哭着给前妻打电话，说那个情妇真是个天大的错误。
He's calling his ex wife in tears saying about the mistress, what a mistake that was.
想知道后来发生了什么？请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或你常用的播客平台收听《Okay Storytime》。
To find out what happened, listen to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我是乔纳斯兄弟。
It's the Jonas Brothers.
如果你还没听过的话，
If you haven't heard,
我们的新播客叫《Hey Jonas》。
our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
这周，我们邀请了一位特别崇拜的嘉宾。
And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
米莉·博比·布朗。
Millie Bobby Brown.
没错。
That's right.
就是那个伊莱ven本人。
Eleven herself.
我们聊了她的新电影《伊诺拉·霍姆斯3》、家庭生活，还有她目前正在做的所有精彩事情。
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes three, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
看到这个的时候我简直惊呆了，米莉·博比·布朗。
This blew my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown.
你养了六十多只动物。
You have over 60 animals.
首先，你怎么记得住每一只的名字？
First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody?
其次，你有特别偏爱的吗？
And second, do you have favorites?
是哪几只？为什么喜欢它们？
Who are they and why?
是的。
Yeah.
我真想知道这事儿。
I need to know about this.
好吧。
Okay.
我也不清楚怎么就到了六十只。
I I don't know where the number's 60.
我真得弄清楚这个数字，说不定我养的已经超过六十只了。
I really gotta figure that out, and I could actually have over 60.
我就是得知道确切的数目。
I just need to really know that number.
床上有过好多只羊，没错。
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed, and yeah.
在
In a
大床上？
big bed?
在床上。
In the bed.
真的睡在床里。
Literally sleeping in the bed.
是的。
Yeah.
另外，我们还了解到她对《怪奇物语》结局的真实看法。
Plus, we find out what she really feels about Stranger Things ending.
五季，差不多占了你十年的人生。
Five seasons, almost ten years of your life.
我根本想不到会是这样。
I could have never have guessed it.
我从十岁的时候就开始追了。
I started when I was 10 years old.
我们和米莉·博比·布朗的对话已经上线了。
Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now.
快去听听吧。
Go check it out.
收听《Hey Jonas》请到
Listen to Hey Jonas on
iHeartRadio 应用或 Apple 播客
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,
或者你平时听播客的任何平台
or wherever you get your
播客。
podcast.
我的
My
第一位嘉宾是帕丽斯·希尔顿。
first guest is Paris Hilton.
夏奇拉。
Shakira.
卢克和艾琳。
Luke and Irene.
萨米拉·E。
Samira e.
格蕾西。
Gracie.
我太兴奋了。
I'm so excited.
在弹跳床上。
On the bouncy bed.
你有惊喜。
You have surprises.
很多惊喜。
Many surprises.
欢迎来到305套房，在这里，群聊变得生动起来。
Welcome to Suite 305 where the group
群聊变得生动起来。
chat comes to life.
大家好？
What up?
你是我认识的唯一一个喜欢黄色星形爆炸图案的人。
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow star burst.
这是柠檬水。
It's lemonade.
这个
This
欢迎收听甜蜜305。
is sweet three zero five.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcast或你常用的播客平台，收听由Lele Pons参与的甜蜜305，隶属于迈克尔·杜达播客网络。
Listen to sweet three zero five with Lele Pons as part of Michael Duda Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是杰克·布伦南。
I'm Jake Brennan.
在《Disgraceland》播客里，我深入探索摇滚明星们放纵的人生，以及音乐史上那些令人难以置信的真实犯罪故事。
And on the Disgraceland Podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history.
这些是你从未听过的往事，听完后你肯定会讲给别人听。
These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else.
比如保罗·麦卡特尼曾经被关进过全球最臭名昭著的监狱之一。
Like the time Paul McCartney spent in one of the world's most notorious prisons.
展开剩余字幕（还有 235 条）
想象一下。
Imagine that.
你就是保罗·麦卡特尼。
You're Paul McCartney.
那是1980年。
It's 1980.
你是个前披头士成员，却在日本最臭名昭著的监狱里服刑，身边全是黑帮分子，而罪名荒唐得离谱。
You're an ex Beatle, and you're doing time in one of Japan's worst prisons right there alongside yakuza gangsters and for a ridiculous charge.
还有那个怪异的指控，说Lady Gaga干了什么。
Or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of.
这位歌手被指控对谁做了件难以置信的事？据说对方偷了她的音乐和风格才红起来的。
Who is the artist Lady Gaga is being accused of doing the unthinkable to after allegedly stealing her music and style to become famous?
还有那次，Blondie乐队的黛比·哈里差点被连环杀手害死的事呢？
And what about that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped a serial killer?
那个搭她车、让她九死一生的人，就是泰德·邦迪。
The man who had given her that ride she barely escaped from was Ted Bundy.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或其他你常用的播客平台收听《Disgraceland》。
Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
一旦你接受了现实，也承认了自己在塑造现实中的责任——也就是心理学上说的自我效能感，这时候你才真正开始有能力去改变你的处境。
Once you've accepted your reality and you've accepted your responsibility in shaping your reality, what we call in psychology accepting your own self efficacy, this is when you start to really begin to be able to shape your new situation.
换句话说，这时候你才能开始寻找新的机会、新的生活习惯，以及新的朋友。
So, basically, this is when you can start seeking out new opportunities, new routines, new friends.
你会为自己设定新的目标。
You start setting new goals for yourself.
你会为此感到开心。
You're happy about it.
你开始有了清晰的愿景，也多了几分乐观。
You really start to have a vision, a bit of optimism.
你制定了一个计划。
You make a plan.
但接下来，好一段时间里，什么都没发生。
And then nothing really happens for a while.
第五阶段是成长的阵痛期，这时候你真的在做出牺牲了。
Stage five is what we call the discomfort of growth stage where you're truly making sacrifices now.
你知道有些东西必须放下了。
You know things need to go.
你知道你需要从头再来。
You know you need a clean slate.
你清楚为了实现想要的未来，哪些事非做不可。
You know what needs to be done to bring about the future that you want.
但这需要时间。
And it takes a while.
就是很难，真的很难。
It it's just it's hard.
考虑到你已经经历的一切，还有你现在的感觉，听起来确实挺让人泄气的。
Sounds like a bummer after what you've already been through and what you probably already feel.
但别害怕。
But do not fear.
这种感觉终究会过去的。
It does pass.
接着，第六阶段会慢慢到来，那就是回报的回归。
And it is followed slowly by stage six, which is the return of reward.
起初很慢，但你会渐渐发现一些变化——感觉轻松了，没那么悲观了，找到了一点节奏。
Slow at first, but you begin to start to notice things shifting, like you're feeling lighter, you're not as pessimistic, you found a bit more of a groove.
缓慢回报的阶段最棒，因为你已经挺过来了，也证明了自己真的有能力蜕变。
The slow reward stage is the best because you kind of made it through and you've proven, like, I'm really capable of evolving.
生活可能没变得更好或更糟，但已经不一样了。
And life may not be better or worse, but it's different.
这种不同，本身就是一种回报。
And that difference is its own reward.
我确实很喜欢这个全新的自己，也期待接下来会发生的事。
And there are things that I genuinely enjoy about this new version of me and that I'm looking forward to.
当然，你还是会偶尔怀念过去，但我觉得这种眷恋恰恰说明你是有血有肉的人，也说明你真正内化了过去的经历。
Definitely, you still feel pangs of nostalgia, but I think yearning is just a sign you're human and that you've deeply embodied your past experiences.
现在你这么做，也是为了当下。
Now you are just doing that for the present as well.
你开始真正享受眼前拥有的一切。
You're starting to really enjoy what you have now.
这时候就进入了最后一个阶段——第七阶段，也就是新的常态。
This is when we arrive at the final stage, stage seven, which is the new normal.
用佛利伍麦克的话说，你已经登上了山顶。
In the words of Fleetwood Mac, you've climbed the mountain.
你转过身来，回望了一眼。
You've turned around.
我知道这话听起来有点老套，但真的再贴切不过了。
I know it sounds cheesy, but it's just the best way to describe it.
一开始并不明显。
It's subtle at first.
我在搬到伦敦、移居海外的时候，就体会到了这一点。
I found this with moving to London and moving overseas.
对吧？
Right?
一开始我特别讨厌，特别讨厌，真的特别讨厌。
Like at first, I really hated it and I hated it and I hated it.
后来我就慢慢不太去想它了。
And then slowly I thought about it less.
我开始主动努力，让这一切变得习以为常，觉得值得。
And I put in more effort to make it feel normal and to make it feel worth it.
就像分手一样，有一天你醒来，突然就觉得没事了。
And then kind of like a breakup, like, you know, one day you just wake up and you you feel okay.
就是这种感觉。
That's what it was like.
有一天，它就真的成了新的日常。
One day it just felt like the new normal.
然后你突然意识到，我现在待的地方，其实挺好的。
And you just kind of realize, I just like where I am now.
我现在挺开心的。
I'm happy.
正如荣格说的，我们当然得重新面对它。
As Carl Jung said, we have to bring him up again, of course.
他说，这种循环会在你的一生中反复出现。
He said this cycle is gonna occur over and over again throughout your life.
但最能应对的人，是那些愿意顺其自然的人。
The people who handle this the best though are those who just submit to the flow of it.
没有什么能永远不变，但你大概也不希望它一直不变。
Nothing stays the same forever, but you probably wouldn't want it to anyway.
我觉得这种痛苦，至少说明了一点：我确实拥有过值得怀念的东西。
I think this pain as well, if nothing else is just proof that, hey, like I have something worth missing.
我确实拥有过值得怀念的东西。
I had something worth missing.
这清楚地告诉你，你曾经拥有过一段你真正热爱的生活，或者至少是其中的一部分。
It shows you conclusively that, you know, you have had a life that you've loved or parts of it that you've loved.
你曾经爱过一些人，这就说明，这个世界上还存在着另一种值得热爱的生活方式。
You've had people that you've loved and therefore there is another version of a life you can love out there as well.
这已经证明了，生活本身是有价值的。
Like, it's proven itself that life is valuable.
我觉得更重要的是，别总盯着你放手后失去了什么，而要想想，如果你死抓着不再适合你的生活不放，你才会真正失去更多。
I think it's also important to not focus on what you've lost by letting go and moving on, but what you would have lost by holding on too tight to a life that didn't fit you anymore.
你说，在那种情况下，你到底会失去什么？
You know, what do you lose in that situation?
首先，你会失去那个更真实的、未来的自己。
Firstly, you lose access to a future version of you who is probably more authentic.
你会错过那些正等着你去迎接的新机会。
You lose access to new opportunities that are just waiting for you to be available for them.
感情关系也是同样的道理。
Same thing with relationships.
如果你不腾出时间和空间去经营，你也会失去那些朋友和你爱的人。
You you lose access to friends and people you love if you made space and time for them.
如果你原地不动，就会错过新的成长和新的体验。
You lose access to new lessons and new experiences if you stayed the same.
你几乎肯定会失去被生活惊喜的能力。
You would almost certainly lose the ability or lose life's ability to surprise you.
而且我觉得，你还会错过一种真正甚至更纯粹的幸福可能性，那是你以前从未感受过的。
And I think you also just lose access to the possibility for a genuine, perhaps even purer happiness than you've ever experienced.
这可能很难想象，尤其当你很珍惜现在拥有的东西时，但我们常常犯一个认知错误，以为自己经历过的就是全部了。
This may be hard to imagine, and it probably is given how much you like what you have, but we often make the cognitive error of believing that all we've ever experienced must be the ceiling for all that we will ever experience.
说到底，现在就是最好的状态了。
Basically, it's as good as it ever was.
这就是人生能达到的极限了。
Like, this is as good as it gets.
我们太专注于失去的东西，却忘了考虑死抓着不放所错过的代价。
And we become very fixated on what we're losing that we forget to consider the opportunity cost of holding on too tight.
我们能清楚地看到自己正在离开的生活。
We can clearly see the life we're leaving behind.
我们很清楚自己喜欢它哪里。
We can clearly see what we liked about it.
但我们看不到另一边正等着我们的生活，因为那还没发生。
We can't see the life waiting for us on the other side because it hasn't happened yet.
心理学家甚至经济学家都有一些术语，用来解释这种心态如何影响我们的行为。
Psychologists and even economists have a few terms they use to try and explain what this does to our behavior.
他们用的一个术语叫禀赋效应。
One term they use is the endowment effect.
这也叫现状偏差。
It may also be known as the status quo bias.
简单说，我们更看重自己已有的东西，因为熟悉，所以往往忽略可能更好的其他选择。
Basically, we value what we already have because we're familiar with it, and that means that we don't consider alternatives that may be better.
我们很难真正重视那些可能性——你未来将要迎来的生活，因为它还没发生，感觉没现在这么真实。
We struggle to value those alternatives, you know, the the the future that's coming for you because it doesn't feel as real as what already was.
但死抓着不放，其实是有代价的。
Holding on though costs you something.
即使你此刻觉得，因为保持现状，自己好像没失去什么，但你真正错过的，是自我成长的机会。
Even if in the moment you feel like you're losing less because you're staying the same, what you're really losing is that opportunity for self expansion.
我觉得，从心理和成长的角度来看，最能说明这种限制的比喻，就是鱼缸比喻。
I think the best metaphor for what this limitation does to us psychologically and developmentally is the fishbowl metaphor.
我相信大家都听过这种说法：金鱼会长到它所在鱼缸的大小。
I'm sure we've all heard this idea that a goldfish will grow to the size of its tank.
我觉得人也一样，你的成长上限，往往取决于你能承受的不适程度。
I think equally people can only grow to the size of their discomfort.
那就是你的极限所在。
That's where their limit is.
如果你不敢让自己待在那种不舒服的空间里，不去经历那种痛苦，总是回头去重复过去，试图重温旧日，那你就是在给自己造一个狭小的鱼缸。
If you don't allow yourself to sit in that space, experience that pain, and if you only and and you always just go back to what you had and try and relive it, you are putting yourself in a in a small fishbowl.
你是在把自己局限住。
You are containing yourself.
2022年，伍利和菲什巴什两位研究者做了一项很棒的研究，发表在《心理科学杂志》上，他们测量了主动寻求不适感作为成长信号，是否能提升人的动力。
There was an amazing study done in 2022 by researchers Woolley and Fishbash, and it was published in the Journal of Psychological Sciences where they measured whether actively seeking discomfort as a signal for growth could increase motivation.
他们做了大约五个实验，总共涉及两千多名成年人，甚至可能更多。
They did like five experiments with like 2,000, I think even more adults in total.
结果发现，当人们主动迎接不适，把这种感觉看作成长的信号和自我提升的途径时，他们的目标达成率要高得多。
And what they found was that when people run towards discomfort because they mentally see it as a sign of growth and a way to improve themselves, their level of goal achievement was much, much higher.
一旦人们意识到不适可能是好事，并主动希望在生活中多经历一些，他们的表现就会更好。
When they accept discomfort as perhaps being a good thing and they voluntarily want more of it in their life, they do better.
这正是我最希望你们能做到的。
And this is what I really want for you guys.
说实话，这也是我对自己所期待的——重新理解不适，理解在超越他人、环境或某个时刻时所伴随的痛苦，其实本质上是一种馈赠。
And if I'm being honest, what I want for myself, the ability to shift our understanding of discomfort and the pain of outgrowing people, places, moments in time to be something that is actually at its core a gift.
这是一种蜕变。
It's transformational.
它不是惩罚。
It's not punishment.
也不是悲伤。
It's not sadness.
人生的根本意义，就在于不断成长。
It is literally the whole point of life is to keep growing.
所以，趁着这集快结束，我们来聊聊三个简单又实际的方法，既能积极看待自己的蜕变，又能尊重过去的自己。
So with that in mind, as we kind of wrap up the episode, let's talk about three easy concrete ways to keep positive about our evolution whilst also honoring who we were before and our past.
首先，当你超越过去的生活时，一定要清楚地注意到，哪些地方变了，以及这些变化为什么重要。
Firstly, as you outgrow your old life, make sure you notice specifically what is different and why that difference is important.
这让我想起前几天看到的一句话。
It reminds me of a quote I saw the other day.
我记不清是谁说的了，但大意是：每一章都痛苦，正因为它是新的；但也正因这些不同，才格外重要。
I can't remember who said it, but it essentially said, each chapter is painful because it is different, but it is important specifically because of those differences.
你人生的每一个阶段，都有独一无二的馈赠，是其他任何阶段都无法替代的。
Basically, each period of your life has something uniquely special to offer that no other part of your life can.
不管你今年19岁、35岁、70岁还是90岁，总会有某种经历是你人生中第一次遇到，它正在考验你、拓展你。
Whether you're 19, 35, 70, 90, there is always going to be an experience you are having for the first time ever that is testing you and expanding you.
而你现在所处的这个阶段，那个独特的经历是什么？
For the period you are in right now, what is that experience?
我觉得更具体的做法是，写下你现在觉得生活想教你什么。
I think an even more concrete way to tap into this is to write down what lesson do you think life is trying to teach you right now?
生活现在正在给你上哪一门课？是哪个模块？
What specific seminar, course, module is life putting you through?
你希望最终学到什么？或者你觉得你正在收获什么样的领悟？
And what is the learning outcome that you are hoping to see at the other end or that you think is being delivered to you.
这个方法真的特别有效。
This is really effective.
回到之前说的，试着找出生活中的模式，这很重要，因为它能为我们的失去赋予意义。
This, you know, coming back to a lesson trying to identify what the pattern is is really important because it creates meaning from our loss.
有一种说法是，失去最痛、最深刻的时候，往往是因为它看起来毫无理由、毫无目的。
There is this idea that loss hurts the most and is the most profound when it seemingly has no reason or purpose.
所以，当我们重新赋予意义——比如‘我从这段经历中学到了这个’——就能为痛苦和悲伤编织出一个故事，这样更容易接纳，也更容易承受。
So by adding meaning back in, you know, I'm this is the lesson I'm taking from this, we create a narrative to our pain and to our grief and that makes it easier to integrate and easier to tolerate.
所以，这是一种方法。
So that's one way to do it.
其次，当你感受到自己正在转变，正在告别过去的生活时，尤其是当你特别想紧紧抓住过去的时候，别忘了你这么做是为了谁。
Secondly, as you feel yourself transitioning and leaving your old life behind, and specifically I think as you feel the urge and the desire to just like hold on, perhaps too tightly, remember who you are doing this for.
这种不适感，到底是为了谁？
Who is this discomfort gonna serve?
说到底，是为了你自己。
The thing is, it's you.
是为了未来的你。
It's your future self.
你主动选择经历这些变化，不管好坏，因为你清楚，未来的你会收获非凡的回报。
You are willingly subjecting yourself to this change for better or for worse because you know that the reward for future you is gonna be spectacular.
新的机会、新的成长、新的关系、新的体验。
The reward of new opportunities, new growth, new relationships, new experiences.
现在可能还感受不到，但你知道，一切都会变好。
May not be able to feel it right now, but you know it's gonna be good.
你越能想象未来的生活，哪怕只是最细微的细节，越能清晰地看到改变之后的样子、收获的果实，这种转变就越不会像惩罚，也不会那么悲伤，而更像……我说不上来那个词。
The more you can visualize your future, even like the tiniest details and the life that your future self will be enjoying, the more you can picture the other side of this and the fruits of this change, the more it will feel less like a punishment, less like a sadness, and more like I don't know the right word.
也许是种执着，也许是种美好的付出，甚至如果你能走到那一步，还会觉得挺令人兴奋的。
Maybe a devotion, maybe a beautiful sacrifice, maybe even exciting if you can get to that point.
前几天我在Instagram上聊过这个话题，但几乎我们所做的每件事，成功最关键的因素之一，就是我们所谓的‘反向延迟折扣’能力，也叫延迟满足。
I spoke about this actually on Instagram the other day, but one of the single greatest predictors of success in almost everything we do is our ability for what we call reverse delay discounting, also called delay gratification.
也就是更看重未来才会到来的回报，而不是眼前立刻能得到的东西。
The ability to value rewards that come later more than rewards that come right now.
这种能力对走出旧生活至关重要，因为正如我们说的，你一定会经历一段心理和情绪上的低谷期，感觉像是在白白放弃生活的很多部分。
This is essential for choosing to grow out of your old life because as we said, there is going to be a mental and emotional trench period where it's like you are just giving pieces of your life away for free.
但总有什么会填补进来。
But then something always comes in to fill its place.
一定会。
Always.
我知道听起来可能有点玄乎，但我在太多人身上都亲眼见过这样的事。
I know that sounds ridiculous, maybe very woo woo, but I have seen it happen in so many people's lives.
比我年长的、比我年轻的、和我同龄的人，他们都会腾出空间。
People older than me, people younger than me, people my age, they leave space.
他们舍弃生活中的一部分，只为让更好的东西进来填满那个空缺。
They sacrifice parts of their life for something better comes in and and fills it up.
他们结束了明明不该继续的关系，没想到突然间，那个空位就出现了他们一直渴望的灵魂伴侣般的友谊。
They leave a relationship they knew they shouldn't be in, and suddenly there is this space open for those soulmate level friendships they always wanted.
他们决定辞掉讨厌的工作，重新回到学校。
They decide to quit the job they hated and go back to school.
虽然经历了一段艰难时期，但之后却腾出了空间，去做真正赋予人生意义的事。
There's a hard period and then there's space to do something that actually gives them meaning.
关键在于，你要像怀念过去那样，多去想象未来。
I guess the important thing is to imagine the future as much as you are imagining the past.
你越是纠结于失去了什么，就越要同样专注你将要得到什么。
As much as you are fixating on what you have lost, fixate equally on what you have to gain.
当你感到悲伤时，也要为感恩留出同等的空间。
And finally, where you feel sadness, leave equal space for gratitude.
有时候我谈到感恩，总觉得有必要补充一句说明。
Sometimes when I talk about gratitude, I feel like I need to make this caveat.
感恩并不是为了压过其他所有情绪。
Gratitude isn't meant to drown out all the other emotions.
它只是想和这些情绪并肩而立。
It's just meant to sit alongside them.
比如，我现在很难过。
Like, I'm sad.
我再也回不到21岁了，但我真的很感激曾经拥有那些时光。
I'm never gonna be 21 again, but I'm so grateful I had those times.
我担心自己再也不会像在那份工作、和那个人、那个地方时那样快乐了。
I'm anxious that I'm never gonna be as happy as I was in that job with that person in that place.
但我很感激，至少我知道这种快乐是真实存在的，而很多人根本没体验过。
But I'm so grateful I know that a happiness of that kind exists when so many people don't.
如果你能做到这一点，你就达到了人类情绪智力的一个重要标志：能够同时容纳两种看似矛盾的情感和真相，而不急于否定其中任何一个。
If you can do this, you accomplish one of the greatest indicators of human emotional intelligence, which is the ability to hold two parallel, perhaps contradictory truths and emotions at one time and not need to cancel them out.
这大概就是生活的本质。
That's kind of what life is.
这说的不就是生活本身吗。
Like, that's literally what life is.
好的坏的都要接纳，看见它们，明白它们能并存，生活没必要非此即彼。
Holding the good, holding the bad, seeing them and seeing that they can exist, they can coexist, they don't need to be or life doesn't need to be one or the other.
而且，大量神经科学和心理学研究都表明，感恩真的会改变大脑的生理状态。
On top of that, we also know from countless neuro and psychological studies that gratitude has a physical impact on your brain.
去年，美国脑科学基金会发布了一份大型报告，详细展示了感恩如何在大脑扫描中体现，如何影响情绪调节和生活满意度。
Just last year, the American Brain Foundation put out this massive report showing all the ways and all the research that gratitude shows up in brain imaging scans, in emotional regulation, in life satisfaction.
这些恰恰是我们走出旧阶段时最需要的东西。
Those are all things we probably need when we are outgrowing the places that we've been.
我觉得这也很适合做日记练习，哪怕只是在心里想想也好。
I also think this makes for a great journaling exercise, even just a mental exercise.
每次你怀念过去，每次被成长的失落感击中，就记下一件让你同样期待的事，一件你同样高兴即将经历的事。
Every every time you miss something, every time you're confronted by the sadness of growing up, write down something you're equally excited for, something that you're equally happy that you are going to get to experience.
最后我想说，告别旧生活带来的痛苦，常常会让人感到特别孤单。
My final thing to say about the pain of outgrowing your old life is it can be very lonely.
这可能会让人很沮丧，但千万别觉得生活再也不会好起来了，说不定还会比以前更好。
It can be very off putting, but don't for a second think life can't get good again and perhaps even better than it was before.
我最近特别着迷于各种问卷、研究，还有我看到的一些个人经历，人们问八九十岁的人：你什么时候最幸福？
I have been so obsessed with these questionnaires and studies and even personal accounts I've been seeing at the moment where people ask those in their eighties and nineties, you know, when were you the happiest?
有那么多人都说五十岁、六十岁、七十岁是最幸福的，而很少人说二十岁，这让我感到特别安慰。
The amount of them who say 50, 60, 70, and the amount of them who so rarely say 20 is so comforting to me.
你以为人生巅峰已经到了，其实可能还没呢。
You think it's as good as it's gonna get, it probably isn't.
每当我感觉某个阶段过得太仓促，我都会问自己：我真的想永远停留在那里吗？
I also just always remind myself when I feel like I didn't get enough time with a certain chapter in my life, would I have wanted to stay there forever?
大概不会。
Probably not.
我真希望那就是我人生的全部吗？
Would I would I want that to be my only reality?
当然不。
No.
这意味着有时候我没法决定新一章什么时候开始，也没法选择时机。
And that means that sometimes I don't get the chance to decide or I don't get to choose when a new chapter begins.
我只能顺势而为，抱着一种盲目的信心，相信这一切都是注定的，相信内心深处其实早就知道，现在的这种生活、这种状态已经不对劲了。
I just have to lean into it and just kind of have this blind hope that it is what's meant to be and that some part of you knows intuitively and instinctively that this life, this situation isn't working.
相信你的直觉。
Trust that gut instinct.
相信那种不适感——我们一直被训练着去忽视它，然后鼓起勇气对自己说：我值得拥有更好的。
Trust that discomfort that we've kind of been trained to ignore and have enough courage to be like, I actually want more for myself.
哪怕这意味着要经历一段模糊不清、空荡荡、充满痛苦的时期。
Even if that means going through a period of liminality, of emptiness, of pain.
我真的很想要彼岸的东西，所以我愿意走过这段路。
I really want what's on the other side, and so I'm willing to go through that.
我做得到。
And I can.
我一定能挺过去。
I can absolutely get through it.
这就是我们关于超越旧生活所带来痛苦的这一期节目。
So that is our episode on the pain of outgrowing your old life.
希望对你有帮助，尤其是你现在正经历这些的时候。
I hope that it was helpful, especially if you are going through this right now.
过去六个月对我而言就是这样，现在我感觉自己已经慢慢进入了新的常态。
This has been like the entire last six months for me, and I do feel like I'm kind of at the new normal, on the new normal side of it all.
回过头来看，真的觉得这一切都值得，尽管过程在很多方面都特别艰难。
And so it's kinda nice looking back and being like, wow, that was really worth it even though it really sucked in many, many ways.
我希望你也能很快有类似的顿悟或觉醒。
So I'm hoping that you get a similar revelation or a similar epiphany very, very soon.
我完全相信你一定能挺过去。
I'm absolutely certain you're gonna make it through.
如果你已经听到这里，并且正在用 Spotify 听，就在下面留个言吧。
If you have made it this far and you are listening on Spotify, leave a little comment down below.
你现在正处于这七个阶段中的哪一个阶段？
What stage of the seven stage process are you in right now?
我希望你快走到尾声了，但如果才刚开始，也没关系。
I'm hoping it's near the end, but if it's near the beginning, that's alright.
前面还有路要走，但一切都会改变的。
You've got a ways to go, but it's going to change.
情况一定会慢慢变好的。
It's gonna get better for you.
和往常一样，提醒一下，如果你想看这类内容，可以在Netflix上找到我们的节目，顺便支持我和这个播客。
As always, as a reminder, you can watch episodes just like this one on Netflix if you wanna go and check it out and support me and the podcast.
Netflix愿意做这件事，还特别把二十多岁听众的心理议题交给我们，这真的很重要。
It is a big thing for Netflix to do and to especially entrust us with the psychology ofyour20s listeners.
所以，如果你能去看看一集，我会非常感激。
So, yeah, it would really mean the world if you would check out an episode.
你还可以通过很多其他方式和我们互动。
You can also get in touch and get involved in so many other ways.
我们还有一个Substack。
We have a Substack.
我们还有个Instagram，你们可以通过那里联系我。
We have an Instagram that you can reach out to me through.
所有信息都写在简介里了。
So many things all in the description.
不过，我还是希望你们喜欢这期节目。
But again, I hope you enjoyed this episode.
下次再见，记得保重自己，善待他人，也对自己温柔一点。
Until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself.
我们很快就会再聊。
We will talk very, very soon.
大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我是乔纳斯兄弟。
It's the Jonas Brothers.
如果你还没听说，我们的
If you haven't heard, our
我们的新播客叫《嘿，乔纳斯》。
new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
这周，我们请来了一位特别崇拜的嘉宾。
And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
米莉·博比·布朗。
Millie Bobby Brown.
我们聊了她的新电影《伊诺拉·霍姆斯3》、家庭生活，还有她目前正在做的各种精彩事情。
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes three, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
另外，我们还问了她对《怪奇物语》完结的真实感受。
Plus, we find out what she really feels about the stranger things ending.
你养了六十多只动物。
You have over 60 animals.
我也不清楚怎么就到了六十这个数字。
I don't know where the number 60.
我真得好好算一算。
I really gotta figure that out.
我床上可没少躺过羊。
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.
我猜你是真躺在床上跟它们一起睡。
I bet literally sleeping in the bed.
收听《Hey Jonas》请关注
Listen to hey Jonas on
iHeartRadio应用或Apple播客
the iheart radio app Apple podcast
或者你常用的任何播客平台。
or wherever you get your podcast.
快乐至关重要，却也难以捉摸。现在，有一种全新而激动人心的方式，帮你开启更快乐的生活——《Joy 101》。这是由我主持的新播客。如果你渴望灵感，想充分感受快乐，一定要收听这些真诚、鼓舞人心又动人的现场对话。打开免费的iHeartRadio应用，搜索“Joy 101”，立即收听吧。《Joy 101》由Hoda Kotb主持，由CBS出品。
Joy is essential and it's also elusive but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence joy one zero one it's a new podcast hosted by me how to copy if you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats open your free iheart radio app search joy one zero one and listen now joy one zero one with hoda kotpi is presented by CBS.
我的第一位嘉宾是帕伦特·希尔卡。
My first guest is parents Hilton shakira
看和获得
look and getting
到处都是惊喜。
have surprises in many surprises.
对。
Uh-huh.
欢迎收听《Sweet 305》播客，在这里
Welcome to the Sweet three zero five podcast where
团队的技术活儿活起来了。
the group tech comes to life.
最近还好吗？
What up?
你是唯一一个喜欢黄色星爆糖的人。
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst.
是柠檬味的。
It's lemonade.
这里是《Sweet 305》。
This is Sweet three zero five.
来吧，越坦白越好。
Here, oversharing encouraged.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听《Suite 305》与 Lele Pons 的节目。
Listen to Suite 305 with Lele Pons on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我丈夫现在正和他的情人一起在度假村，我正打电话给酒店，打算当面质问他们俩。
My husband is at a spa resort with his mistress right now, and I'm calling the hotel to confront them both.
等等，达科塔。
Wait a minute, Dakota.
她一边打电话给酒店，他们俩还一起登记入住？
She's calling the hotel while they're checked in together?
是的。
Yeah.
没错，索菲亚。
That's right, Sofia.
事情还更糟呢。
And it gets worse.
这事儿发生在《Okay Storytime》播客里，她发现他在亚马逊上买礼物，然后在他行李里塞了一封十页长的信，等他出发前就布置好了。
It's vacate the vacation week on the Okay Storytime podcast, where she caught him buying gifts on Amazon and then taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out.
所以他在起飞之前，她就已经埋下证据了？
So she planted evidence before he even took off?
而且剧透一下，Sofia，两年后，报应来得特别狠，他哭着给前妻打电话，说起了那个小三的事。
And spoiler Sofia, two years later, karma hits so hard, he's calling his ex wife in tears saying about his mistress.
真是个天大的错误。
What a mistake that was.
想知道后来发生了什么？请收听《Okay Storytime》播客，可以在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客，或者你常用的任何播客平台收听。
To find out what happened, listen to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是杰克·布伦南。
I'm Jake Brennan.
在《Disgraceland》播客里，我深入挖掘摇滚明星那些荒唐的谎言，以及音乐史上那些令人难以置信的真实犯罪故事。
And on the Disgraceland podcast, I explore the wild lies of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history.
这些都是你没听过的真相，听完你一定会忍不住讲给别人听。
These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else.
比如保罗·麦卡特尼曾被关进那座臭名昭著的监狱，或女神卡卡被指控的离奇案件，还有金发美女黛比·哈里逃过泰德·邦迪魔掌的那件事。
Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused or that time blondies Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bundy.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、苹果播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听《Disgraceland》。
Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
这是 iHeart 播客出品的《 Guaranteed Human》。
This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
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