436. 兄弟姐妹竞争的心理学

这是iHeart出品的播客《 Guaranteed Human 》。

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是杰玛·斯派克，欢迎回到《二十岁的心理课》，这档节目我们聊聊二十多岁人生中那些重大变化、关键时刻和转折，以及它们对心理的影响。

I'm Jemma Spike, and welcome back to the psychology of your twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

欢迎再次收听本节目。

Welcome back to the show.

欢迎回到本播客。

Welcome back to the podcast.

很高兴你又回来听这一期，这一期的主题我们以前几乎没怎么聊过，我甚至有点儿不好意思。

It is so great to have you here back for another episode and an episode on a topic we have spoken about so rarely on the podcast that I almost feel a little bit guilty.

我感觉自己好像没把工作做到位。

I almost feel like I haven't done my job properly.

今天我们聊的是兄弟姐妹之间那种独特的纽带，以及这种关系如何影响我们的心理和情感世界。

We're talking about the unique relationship we have with our siblings and how those dynamics play out in our psychological and also in our emotional worlds.

兄弟姐妹之间的关系，真的别无二致。

The sibling bond is like no other.

就这么说吧。

Let's just say that.

但正因为特别，才更可能陷入所有亲密关系都会遇到的那些问题。

But just because it is special doesn't mean that it's immune to the problems that I guess all close relationships have.

每个人和兄弟姐妹的亲疏程度都不一样。

There's also different levels of closeness for everyone.

对吧？

Right?

你可能正在听，和兄弟姐妹关系特别好，觉得他们简直就是灵魂伴侣。

You might be listening to this and have an amazing relationship with your siblings that, you know, you might think of them as soulmates.

你也可能正好相反，和兄弟姐妹之间有距离、有摩擦、有分歧。

You might be listening to this and have the complete opposite where there is distance and tension and disagreement.

影响这种关系的因素往往非常复杂，涉及性格、生活方式、环境，但最重要的是成长经历和家庭氛围。

What shapes this is often very complicated and comes from a mix of personality, lifestyle, environment, but probably most importantly, upbringing and parental environment.

有句很著名的话说，两个孩子住在同一个屋檐下，同一个家庭，却可能拥有完全不同的童年。

There's a very famous saying that two children can be raised in the same house, same family, and have completely different childhoods.

今天我想主要从兄弟姐妹之间的竞争角度，来聊聊这个现象——从童年到成年，我们和兄弟姐妹之间常常存在的较劲。

And that's what I kind of want to discuss today, primarily through the lens of sibling rivalry and the competition we often have with our siblings from children to adults.

小时候，这种竞争看起来可能挺琐碎的，但长大后，尤其是二十多岁的时候，我们开始意识到一些更隐蔽的因素，它们深刻影响着我们和兄弟姐妹的关系。

As kids, you know, this rivalry seems kind of petty, but as we get older and in our twenties especially, there's definitely a turning point where we start to understand some of the more nefarious things that influence how well we get along with our brothers and sisters.

比如父母的偏心、出生顺序、童年时被赋予的角色、父母之间的冲突，还有更多别的东西。

From parental favoritism to birth order, childhood roles, parental conflict, and so much more.

所以今天这期节目，我们就来好好聊聊这个话题。

So in today's episode, we're gonna talk about it.

我们终于要揭开兄弟姐妹关系的面纱，特别是那种挥之不去的竞争感。

We're finally going to shine a light on sibling relationships, specifically sibling rivalry.

咱们现在就开始。

Let's get into it.

好的。

Okay.

在我们深入探讨兄弟姐妹关系如何变得扭曲、复杂且难以处理——尤其是随着年龄增长之前，咱们先从简单的话题说起。

Before we get into how sibling relationships can become twisted and complicated and hard, especially as we get older, let's just start with the easy stuff.

我们先聊点轻松的：为什么你和兄弟姐妹的关系，可能跟你这辈子经历的任何其他关系都不一样。

Let's start with something more light, which is why our relationship with our siblings is unlike probably any other relationship you will ever have.

首先，如果我们运气不错，大约80%的人都有兄弟姐妹。

For starters, if we are lucky enough, 80% of us have siblings.

而你的兄弟姐妹，很可能就是你一生中持续时间最长的关系。

And your siblings will probably be the longest relationship you are going to have in your life.

他们在你结交真正的朋友之前就陪着你，在你遇到伴侣之前就陪着你，而且，如果我们足够幸运，即使在父母和其他至亲离世之后，他们依然还在。

They are there with you before you make real friends, before you meet your partners, and often, again, if we're lucky enough, after you lose parents and other close family members.

而且我觉得，这种关系早已超越了普通的友谊。

They also, I think, transcend beyond just a friendship.

对吧？

Right?

他们属于一个独特的类别。

They're their own category.

无论你走多远、分开多久、疏远到什么地步，你们始终牵连在一起。

You're always going to be tied to each other no matter how far you may travel, split, drift.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

有没有血缘都一样，哪怕你是被收养的，哪怕你有继兄弟姐妹，情况都没区别。

DNA or not, even if you're adopted, even if you have stepsiblings, it's the same.

正是那种亲密的童年环境、共同的经历，还有‘家人’这个身份——对人类来说意义重大，永远不会消失，决定了你的关系永远是你自我的一部分。

It's that intimate childhood environment and those experiences and the fact that you are family and that means something important to us as humans that never goes away and means that your relationship is always going to be part of who you are.

兄弟姐妹通常也是你人生中第一个同龄伙伴、第一个竞争对手、第一个玩伴，更是你最初的社交镜子，因为他们往往在情感和年龄上都离你最近。

Siblings are also often your first peers, first competitors, first companions, and your first social mirror because they're usually the people that are closest to us both relationally and also in age.

正因为这些原因，有兄弟姐妹其实有很多特别的好处。

There's some amazing things about having siblings for some of those reasons we've mentioned.

我觉得，和兄弟姐妹吵架，也是拥有他们的一种乐趣。

And I also think fighting with your siblings is also something that's kind of fun about having, you know, having a brother or sister.

我知道这有点复杂。

I know it gets a little bit tricky.

我们待会儿会聊这个。

We're gonna talk about that.

但首先，我们来谈谈为什么和兄弟姐妹吵架是正常的。

But let's firstly begin with why fighting with your siblings is normal.

很多人一想到兄弟姐妹，尤其是跟他们吵架的时候，就会想到那些事儿：谁住的房间大，谁该坐前排，吃饭时谁得到的关注多，谁总能溜过去，谁又总被挑错。

For a lot of us when we think about brothers and sisters, especially as we fight with them, we think about, you know, arguing about who gets the bigger room, whose turn it was to sit in the front seat, who got more attention at dinner, who always gets away with things, who doesn't.

童年时的这些争执很重要，因为它们是家庭生活里的一种‘民间传说’。

Childhood arguments are important because they are part of, like, the folklore of family life.

兄弟姐妹之间的冲突是一种很特别的矛盾，有时候反而让你受益，因为你悄悄学会了那些了不起的软技能，自己都没意识到。

And sibling conflict is this really unique type of conflict where you actually sometimes benefit because you pick up some incredible soft skills that you don't even realize you may take for granted.

儿童发展研究者指出，兄弟姐妹间的竞争具有重要的社交功能，正是它让这种关系对人生不可或缺。

Child development researchers point to this incredible socializing function of sibling rivalry as why it is necessary for life.

我们的兄弟姐妹，往往是我们这辈子最早、也是最好的老师之一。

Our siblings are some of the greatest and earliest teachers we will ever have.

通过和兄弟姐妹吵架，你学会了大量东西：谈判、反击、分享、公平、道歉、设定界限、幽默感、情绪管理，还有很多很多。

You learn so much about negotiation, retaliation, sharing, fairness, apologizing, boundaries, humor, emotional regulation, the list goes on and on, through fighting with your siblings.

兄弟姐妹也是我们最早体会到人性复杂之处的地方——爱和敌意完全可以共存。

They're also one of the first places that children and we as humans experience the very human fact that love and hostility can coexist.

这种爱往往很复杂。

That love is often complicated.

我们彼此示范在家庭关系中什么行为是被接受的，这种示范只有家人之间才能做，外人这么做就太不合适了。

And we often model to each other what is expected in certain scenarios as loved ones in a way that other people can't because it would be wildly inappropriate.

你想想看。

You know, think about it.

兄弟姐妹常常比父母更频繁地纠正你的行为，他们生你的气、回击你，甚至打你、哭闹，这些都是重要的社交反馈。

Like, your siblings are often the people who correct your behavior more than your parents do by getting upset at you, by retaliating, by maybe hitting you, crying, that important social feedback.

我们之所以能接受，是因为我们爱他们，因为我们之间有这种纽带。

And we allow it because we love them and because we have this bond.

你在操场上被别的孩子咬一口，就因为惹恼了他，那就像打了一针破伤风疫苗，还被当场开除。

You know, another kid biting you in the playground because you annoy them, That is like a tetanus shot and an expulsion.

但和兄弟姐妹之间这样更被接受，也更自然，所以我们往往从他们身上学得更快，不用等社会后来礼貌地提醒我们。

But it's more okay and it's more socially acceptable with siblings, meaning sometimes we just learn quicker through them instead of waiting for society to, know, politely correct us later on.

2012年，费恩伯格和他的团队做了一项研究，深入分析了兄弟姐妹对我们行为影响的三种不同途径。

There was a 2012 study from Feinberg and colleagues actually that looked closer into the three distinct pathways of influence that our siblings have on our behavior.

他们发现的是这样一些情况。

Here is what they found.

第一种途径：他们帮我们建立起一套行为模式。

Pathway number one, they help provide a behavioral repertoire.

我之前已经提过好几次了，家其实就是训练场。

Again, I think I've said this a couple of times now, but like the home is the training ground.

通过日常互动，我们彼此教会对方社交技巧，或者相反，也教会了强迫和控制的行为。

So through daily interactions, we tend to teach each other like, social skills or conversely coercive behaviors as well.

如果兄弟姐妹的关系充满攻击和冲突，孩子就会学到，发脾气和对抗是达成目的的有效方式，这种习惯可能带到学校和同伴关系中。

If a sibling relationship is defined by aggression and conflict, children can learn that hostility is an effective way to get what you want, which is a habit that they may then carry into their school life and peer groups.

但如果他们学到的是爱、友谊和合作，这些也会成为他们行为模式的一部分。

But if they learn love and friendship and cooperation, they carry that as well as part of their behavioral repertoire.

兄弟姐妹关系教给我们的第二件事是偏差行为的训练。

The second thing that sibling relationships teach us is deviancy training.

这就像是共犯之间的那种纽带。

This is like the partner in crime kind of bond.

除了学习一般的行为，兄弟姐妹还常常直接示范并强化一些具体的行为、选择或偏好，影响我们的表达方式、穿着、喜好、举止，甚至随着年龄增长，像滥用药物或越轨行为这类高风险的事情。

Beyond just learning general behaviors, siblings often directly model and reinforce specific activities or choices or preferences that influence how we express ourselves, what we wear, what we like, how we act, even risky things like substance use or delinquency as you get older.

我提到的这篇论文指出，这种影响尤其强烈，因为和朋友不同，你无法选择自己的兄弟姐妹，他们的影响是无法回避的，会一直伴随你的人生，无论是好是坏。

The paper I'm referring to notes that this is particularly potent because unlike friends, you don't choose your siblings, making their influence unavoidable and a constant presence in your life for good or for bad.

最后，是家庭系统。

Finally, the family system.

他们让你明白什么是家庭。

They teach you what family means.

这就是兄弟姐妹产生连锁影响的地方。

This is where siblings have this kind of ripple effect.

尤其是兄弟姐妹之间的冲突，不会只停留在孩子之间，还会成为父母的重大压力源。

Sibling conflict in particular doesn't just stay between the kids, but acts as a major stressor for parents.

父母之间的争吵也会给兄弟姐妹带来巨大压力。

And fighting between the parents acts as a major stressor for siblings.

也正是在这种互动中，你明白了那些自称爱你的人应该怎样待你。

It's also within this dynamic that you understand what is expected of people that claim to love you.

是的，不仅对你父母如此，对你兄弟姐妹也是如此。

Yes, with your parents, but also with your siblings.

什么是修复关系。

What it means to repair relationships.

什么是向别人提出期待。

What it means to expect things from other people.

所以兄弟姐妹之间的冲突也可能非常激烈。

So sibling conflict can also be very brutal.

我本意是讲好处，但情况真会变得很激烈，甚至动起手来。

I think I'm speaking about the benefits, but it can get really intense, like, physically.

我胳膊上有个疤，就是以前被其中一个姐妹抓的，为点小事。

I have a scar on my arm from when, like, one of my sisters scratched me over something.

我甚至都不记得是为了什么了。

I don't even know what.

情况还能更糟得多。

And it gets a lot worse than that.

马克·费恩伯格医生，就是那位做过我们之前提到的那篇论文的人，他在宾夕法尼亚州立大学长期研究兄弟姐妹关系。

Doctor Mark Feinberg, that same man who did that original paper we were talking about, he investigates sibling relationships a lot at Pennsylvania State University.

他是这个研究领域最有影响力的人物之一，他认为兄弟姐妹之间的竞争在儿童早期到中期特别激烈。

He's one of the leading names in this research area, and he suggests that sibling rivalry is particularly intense around the period of early to middle childhood.

这个阶段是兄弟姐妹冲突和攻击行为的关键期，不仅因为你们整天待在一起，还因为你们当时缺乏有效处理人际冲突所需的情绪和社会调节能力，所以这段关系简直像高压锅。

This period of childhood is is a key years for sibling aggression and conflict because not only do you spend so much time together during this period, but also you are lacking emotional and social regulation skills that you need to effectively resolve conflict with other people, meaning your relationship isn't a pressure cooker.

正如我之前说的，这种冲突可能表现为身体上的争斗，也可能表现为占有欲、嘲讽。

Again, as I said, it might present itself physically, it might present itself as possessiveness, teasing.

它可能看起来像是纯粹的怨恨，也可能表现为模仿、偷东西，或者试图在家庭里抢占某种角色。

It might look like, yeah, just like bitter thoughts, but also copying, stealing, trying to adopt some kind of role in the family.

正是童年早期这种紧张关系，常常让我们被贴上‘捣蛋鬼’‘和事佬’‘老好人’‘宠儿’或‘照顾者’这样的标签。

And it's this tension in our early years as children that often gets us a designated role as the troublemaker, as the mediator, as the pushover, as the golden child, as the caretaker.

我们很多角色确实是通过日常互动形成的。

Often a lot of our roles, yes, form through daily interactions.

它们也来自我们彼此争吵的方式、相处的方式，冲突在这方面起着关键作用。

They also form through how we fight with each other, how we relate to each other, conflict being a big part of it.

就连小孩子也有很强的公平感。

Even young children have a sense of of fairness.

兄弟姐妹之间的相处，不断给他们提供比较的机会，让他们通过和兄弟姐妹的互动，以及父母对每个人的对待，来认识自己。

And sibling life gives them a constant stream of opportunities to compare and figure out who they are based on how they relate to their siblings, but also what parents give each person.

谁得到的温暖更多、关注更多、自由更多、保护更多、表扬更多，也许甚至更多宽容或身体上的亲近。

So who gets more warmth, more attention, more freedom, more protection, more praise, maybe even more leniency or physical closeness.

这种紧张感的部分原因，其实有进化上的根源。

Part of why that also creates tension is evolutionary.

父母的时间和注意力是有限的，所以我们和兄弟姐妹之间，总在无形中竞争，这正是冲突的来源。

The fact that our parents do not have endless amounts of time and attention to give us, and therefore we are slightly in competition with our siblings at any given time, is what creates conflict.

你要是独生子女，父母能给你的关注，就是他们全部的了。

You know, when you're the only child, the time your parents have to give you is as much as they can.

你其实并没有跟别人分享，除了你的另一个家长，或者他们的工作，类似这些事情。

You're not really sharing it with anybody else other than your other parent or other than their job or things like that.

但当你有更多兄弟姐妹时，时间有限，注意力有限，情感上的投入和陪伴也有限。

But when there is more of you, time is limited, attention is limited, emotional availability, presence is limited.

所以从进化角度来看，兄弟姐妹处于一种奇特的双重位置。

So from an evolutionary perspective, siblings are in this strange dual position.

他们既是家人，又是竞争对手。

They are both family and they're competitors.

他们依赖彼此的生存，但同时也在争夺父母的资源投入。

They benefit from each other's survival, but they're also competing at least in part for parental investment.

这就让他们开始表现出某些行为，觉得这样能更讨父母喜欢，或者在家庭里占优势。

And that means that they start acting in certain ways that they think their parents may like more or that they think may get them ahead in the family unit.

这并不是说每个孩子都在时刻用数学公式精确计算资源分配。

And it's not that each sibling is consciously calculating resource allocations at all times in some like mathematical way.

但像我说的，孩子天生对公平特别敏感。

But as children, like I said, we're attuned to fairness.

我们特别敏感，能察觉到谁得到的多，谁得到的少。

We're attuned to who is getting more, who is getting less.

如果你最近接触过孩子，肯定深有体会。

If you've been around kids recently, you know this well.

这种念头在他们脑子里一直不停地转。

It is like a constant thing that's going on in their mind.

所以，这也是为什么我们和兄弟姐妹的关系有时会这么紧张的重要原因之一。

So that's another major theory as to why sometimes our relationship with our siblings isn't always great.

这种冲突源于童年时对父母关爱和资源的争夺，即使长大后，这种模式依然在悄悄影响着我们。

Unconsciously, it comes from this conflict over parental love and resources that starts as kids but transforms as adults.

我觉得，也不完全是想要别人拥有的东西。

I also just think that like, it's not always about wanting what the other sibling has.

有时候，我们和兄弟姐妹闹矛盾，只是不想被忽视、被淹没。

It's also simply like, sometimes we have conflict with our siblings because we just don't wanna disappear.

我们通过和兄弟姐妹的互动来表现自己，就是为了证明：我就是我，不是谁的影子。

And we act out in relation to our siblings because we wanna have this distinct identity.

对吧？

Right?

作为成年人，我们都知道，跟兄弟姐妹吵架、闹脾气，确实挺烦人的，也 probably 不对。

And as adults, we know that, like, starting fights with our siblings acting out, like, is annoying and probably wrong.

但小时候，你就是只想被人注意到。

But as children, like, you just wanna feel noticed.

你就是只想被人看见。

You just wanna feel seen.

而且，你们本来就是不一样的人。

And there's also just the fact that you guys are different people.

人们跟兄弟姐妹吵架，就是因为彼此不是同一个人。

People fight with their siblings because you're not the same person.

你们有不同看法、不同喜好、不同性格，还有家庭赋予的不同角色。

You do have different opinions, preferences, personalities, roles that have been assigned by the family.

有时候，就是单纯觉得对方特别烦人。

And other times you some people just annoy you.

你俩是亲戚这点并不重要。

It doesn't matter that you're related.

你和他们有血缘关系，并不能让你例外于这个人性真相。

Like, you being related doesn't exclude you from this human truth.

别人让我们烦，就是因为她们不是我们自己。

Other people get on our nerves because they are not us.

对吧？

Right?

和兄弟姐妹之间不一样，和其他一些关系不同，你没法一走了之，说‘我不玩了’。

And with our siblings, unlike with some other relationships, but definitely it is an option, Like, can't just step away and be like, I'm done with that.

这要难得多。

It's a it's a lot harder.

所以简单总结一下这一部分：童年时的兄弟姐妹竞争是很正常的。

So what I'm saying to give a mini summary of this section, sibling rivalry in childhood is normal.

这是一种通过实践来学习某些能力的社会方式。

It is a socially experimental way of learning certain skills.

这是我们在家庭中获得父母关爱、觉得自己重要或被看见的方式。

It is how we, you know, gain parental love or feel like we matter or we are seen in the family.

随着年龄增长，这种情况也可能发生变化。

It can also take a turn, especially as we get older.

我们来聊聊，成年后的兄弟姐妹竞争会如何转变，或许会变得更加复杂——稍后我们回来继续。

So let's talk about how sibling rivalry transforms in adulthood and maybe becomes complicated after this short break.

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的

the

让我们一起揭开这些真相，我们会与世界上最有趣的人展开深度对话，比如演员奥利维亚·穆恩曾分享她如何应对那些完全意想不到的健康挑战。

lets us uncover all of that together we're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming.

我经历过癌症，也陪母亲对抗乳腺癌，那段日子更难熬。

I've gone through cancer and help my mother to breast cancer and that was more difficult.

很多人能理解产后抑郁，但我对产后焦虑完全毫无准备。

There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression, I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.

奥运冠军肖恩·约翰逊透露，她别无选择，只能成为一名体操运动员。

Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast

体操对我有种特别的吸引力，它让我相信，每个人内心都藏着一份这样的宝藏，只是我们得去找到它。

there was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me that's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us we just have to find it.

请在 iHeart Radio 应用、Apple 播客，或你常用的播客平台收听乔伊的独家访谈。

Listen to joy one on one with hoda caught me on the iheart radio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我们是乔纳斯兄弟。

It's the Jonas Brothers.

如果你还不知道，我们的新播客叫《嘿，乔纳斯》。

If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.

这周，我们邀请了一位我们特别崇拜的嘉宾。

And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.

米莉·博比·布朗。

Millie Bobby Brown.

没错。

That's right.

就是那个‘十一’本人。

Eleven herself.

我们聊了她的新电影《伊诺拉·霍姆斯3》、家庭生活，还有她目前正在做的所有精彩事情。

We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes three, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now.

当我看到这个的时候，简直震惊了。

This blew my mind when

我看到的是米莉·博比·布朗。

I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown.

你养了六十多只动物。

You have over 60 animals.

首先，你是怎么把这么多动物都记清楚的？

First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody?

其次，你有特别偏爱的吗？

And second, do you have favorites?

是哪些？为什么喜欢它们？

Who are they and why?

是的。

Yeah.

我真想知道详情。

I need to know about this.

好吧。

Okay.

我也不清楚怎么就到了60只。

I I don't know where the number's 60.

我得好好查一查，说不定其实已经超过60只了。

I really gotta figure that out, and I could actually have over 60.

我真得弄清楚这个数字到底是多少。

I just need to really know that number.

我床上可不止躺过几只羊，

There have been plenty of sheep in my bed and,

是啊，我也想躺床上休息一下。

yeah, I'd like bed?

就在床上。

In the bed.

真的在床里睡觉。

Literally sleeping in the bed.

是的。

Yeah.

另外，还得弄清楚她对《怪奇物语》结局的真实想法。

Plus, find out what she really feels about stranger things ending.

五季啊，差不多占了你十年的生命。

Five seasons, almost ten years of your life.

我完全没想到会是这个结果。

I could have never have guessed it.

我十岁就开始拍了。

I started when I was 10 years old.

我们现在已经发布了和米莉·博比·布朗的对话内容。

Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now.

快去看看吧。

Go check it out.

来听听 Hey Jonas 节目，

Listen to Hey Jonas on

你可以在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcast，或者你平时听播客的任何平台上找到它。

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我

My

的第一位嘉宾是帕丽斯·希尔顿。

first guest is Paris Hilton.

夏奇拉。

Shakira.

卢克和艾琳。

Luke and Irene.

格蕾西。

Gracie.

我太期待了。

I'm so excited.

在蹦床上。

On the bouncy bed.

你准备了惊喜。

You have surprises.

很多惊喜。

Many surprises.

欢迎来到305套房，这里

Welcome to Suite 305 where the

这场对话活起来了。

good chat comes to life.

对。

Yes.

你是唯一一个喜欢黄色星爆糖的人。

You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst.

这是柠檬味的。

It's lemonade.

这个

This

是甜蜜3305。

is sweet three three zero five.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你常用的任何播客平台，收听由Lele Pons带来的《甜蜜3305》，它是我的Cultura播客网络的一部分。

Listen to sweet three zero five with Lele Pons as part of my Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我丈夫现在正和情妇一起度假，我要去当面质问他们。

My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress, and I'm confronting them.

告诉我，索菲亚，她是怎么发现的？

Tell me, Sofia, how did she even catch them?

一张亚马逊的购物收据。

One Amazon shopping receipt.

他不小心发给她一张照片，上面是孩子的圣诞礼物，收货地址却是另一个女人。

He accidentally sent her a photo of the kid's Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom.

他这是自曝了？

He exposed himself?

这可是新手才会犯的错。

That's a rookie move.

双人按摩、带名字缩写的浴袍，还有他通过Venmo给她买的内衣。

Couples massages, monogrammed bathrobes, and lingerie he Venmoed her for.

于是她花了四周时间收集证据，然后在他行李里塞了一封十页长的信。

So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out.

他行李里，她悄悄登场了。

In his luggage, she came to play.

他一落地，就把她拉黑了。

And the second he landed, he blocked her.

于是她直接拨通了酒店房间，跟小三当面通话。

So she called the hotel room directly and got the mistress on the phone.

她居然联系上了小三。

Oh, she got the mistress

还是实时通话？

live on the phone?

这真是

That is

胆子不小。

a bold move.

咱们看看这招能不能奏效。

Let's see if it pays off.

事情变得更糟了。

Then it gets worse.

他带着情妇去了原本计划和妻子一起去的巴哈马蜜月旅行。

He took the mistress on The Bahamas honeymoon trip he had planned with his wife.

然后情妇在Facebook上标记了他，把这件事告诉了她全家。

And then the mistress tagged him on Facebook, outing the fair to her entire family.

这简直就像当众自首了。

That's like a whole public confession.

剧透一下，两年后，报应狠狠地找上了他。

And spoiler, two years later, karma hits him so hard.

他哭着给前妻打电话，说那个情妇真是个天大的错误。

He's calling his ex wife in tears saying about the mistress, what a mistake that was.

想知道后来发生了什么？请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你常用的播客平台收听《Okay Storytime》。

To find out what happened, listen to the Okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是芒加·沙提格勒，我带着《天际线之旅》的新一季回来了。

I'm Munga Shatigler, and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive.

这一次，我要深入探索肽、类器官、血童、蓝区和大脑置换，弄清楚人们为什么如此痴迷延年益寿，以及对我们所有人来说，永生到底意味着什么。

This time, I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about and what it really means to live forever for all of us.

我了解到一些很酷的科学发现。

I learned about some rad science.

我可以给你造一个大脑，然后测试哪种药物对你的大脑最有效，而不是对他的大脑。

I can make a brain for you, and then we can test what drug is the best for your brain That's as opposed to his brain.

这里有一些残酷的真相。

Here are some hard truths.

我原本以为印度人会老得快一些，但没想到居然快了将近四到五年。

I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a four to five year acceleration.

然后让自己陷入大麻烦？

And get myself into a world of trouble?

我觉得最好先从砸骨头开始。

I'd say probably start bone smashing.

这招不管用。

That doesn't work.

让它看起来更清晰分明。

Make it look more defined.

他们说这招管用。

They say it works.

我不确定。

I don't know.

去 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客，或者你常用的播客平台，收听《Skyline Drive》和《How to Live Forever》。

Listen to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

到了成年，尤其是二十多岁的时候，我觉得兄弟姐妹之间的事——这听起来可能挺明显的。

In adulthood, especially in our twenties, I think sibling this is gonna sound obvious.

兄弟姐妹之间的竞争，不是谁多拿了玩具、谁坐了前排座位。

Sibling competition is not about who gets what in terms of toys or front seats.

它变得更心理化了。

It's becomes very psychological.

更多是关于地位、成就、与父母的亲密程度、自豪感、应对方式，还有过去的事，谁带着过去的包袱没放下，这只是其中一部分。

It becomes more about status, achievement, closeness to parents, pride, coping, and also the past, and who is carrying things from the past with them, just to name a few.

关于兄弟姐妹关系在青少年向成年过渡阶段的发展研究显示，这一时期兄弟姐妹的关系往往会发生显著变化，与更广泛的生活转折点同步，比如离家、找伴侣、工作、上学、结婚、当父母。

The developmental literature on sibling relationships in the transition from teenage years to adulthood shows that sibling relationships often shift significantly around this time in line with wider life transitions, like leaving home, getting a partner, working, studying, marrying, becoming a parent.

有些事情确实会改变，要么削弱、要么改善原本的兄弟姐妹关系。

Things do start to change that take away or maybe improve the original sibling relationship.

我见过很多例子，我的朋友随着年纪增长，反而和兄弟姐妹更亲近了，因为这些重大的人生转变让他们对优先级有了更踏实、更全面的看法。

I've seen it in many many cases that friends of mine have actually gotten so much closer with their brothers and sisters as they age because these huge life changes give them a more grounded, more kind of well rounded perspective on priorities.

也许这是他们人生中第一次真正理解彼此，因为他们比以往更需要对方。

Maybe it's the first time in their lives that they really like understand each other because they're they need each other more.

但我也发现，有些人随着年龄增长，和兄弟姐妹的关系反而疏远了。

But I've also found, you know, people get less close with their siblings as they get older.

我就是这种情况，你知道的。

And that's been my case, you know.

我和我两个妹妹年龄差距挺大的，我觉得。

Me and my younger sisters have a pretty big age gap, I would say.

我17岁就搬出去住了，那时候她们才九岁和十二岁。

I moved out when I was 17 and they were like nine and 12.

她们的整个青春期都是在一起度过的。

They had their whole teenage years together.

我当时不在家，甚至都不在同一个州，更别说同一个国家了。

And I wasn't at home, I wasn't even in the same state, let alone the same country.

随着年纪增长，这种状况会形成不一样的相处模式。

And that creates a different dynamic as you get older.

你不可能再像小时候住在一起时那么亲近了。

You know, you're never gonna be as close as you were when you were living in the same household.

这不仅仅是距离的问题。

And it's not just distance.

随着年龄增长，兄弟姐妹之间的关系也会变得越来越复杂。

Sibling relationships can also become distinctively more loaded the older we get.

就像一种累积效应，童年的矛盾和冲突一层叠一层，越积越多，最后变成多年的怨气。

There's almost this compounding effect where childhood problems and conflicts now compound on top of each other on top of each other on top of each other until it becomes years of resentment.

等你到了二十五岁、三十五岁，或者四十五岁，你生气的不是因为圣诞节时对方说了一句难听的话。

By the time you're 25 or 35 or 45, you're not just reacting to one rude comment at Christmas and that's not why you're annoyed at your sibling.

你是在回应二十多年来，自己在兄弟姐妹中被固定下来的某种角色。

You're reacting to twenty years of being cast in a certain role with your siblings.

或者你是在回应二十年来那些从未说出口的小事。

Or you're reacting to twenty years of small things that have gone unsaid.

随着你越来越有自我意识，也或许更有自尊，你会更清楚地看到家庭里那些有害的叙事，以及父母对你和兄弟姐妹的不同对待，这些都再也无法忽视。

You also become more aware of the harmful narratives within your family and the way your parents treated you differently that are hard to ignore as you gain more self awareness and you gain perhaps more self respect.

本质上，成年后的兄弟姐妹冲突，其实装着更久远的伤痛，这就是为什么它会成为很多人成年后激烈争斗的战场。

Essentially, adult sibling conflict is a container for much much older wounds, which is why they become a very big battleground for many people in adulthood.

这种紧张关系是从哪里开始的呢？

Where does this tension begin?

我们已经讨论过一些关于为什么人们会争吵的解释，但为什么有些人离开兄弟姐妹关系时，会觉得一切都特别不公平？

We've talked about some of the explanations for why we fight in general, but why do some people walk away from their sibling relationships feeling like things are very unfair?

一个很自然的切入点就是出生顺序。

One place we can naturally go to is birth order.

出生顺序当然有不少人持怀疑态度，我偶尔也是其中之一。

Now, birth order has its skeptics and I'm occasionally one of them.

但说到兄弟姐妹之间的冲突，出生顺序确实很有解释力。

But for this, for sibling conflict, birth order makes a lot of sense.

流行文化里对兄弟姐妹的角色有不少刻板印象。

There's a few stereotypes we have in popular culture about which sibling acts in which ways.

比如，老大通常更负责任，但也更爱管人。

You know, older children are more responsible but also more bossy.

中间的孩子常常被忽视。

Middle children are the forgotten ones.

最小的孩子则总是被宠着。

Youngest children are spoiled.

但事情远不止这么简单，我们先从长子说起。

It goes deeper than that though, starting with the eldest.

第一个孩子出生时，家庭还是空的，往往承载着父母希望一切完美的期待。

The first child enters an empty family system and often carries the parents' fantasies of getting it right.

这意味着他们肩上的压力更大，恐惧和焦虑也更重。

Meaning there's a lot of pressure and a lot more fear and anxiety on their shoulders.

一边按书本养第一个孩子，一边还要适应当父母的紧张和新鲜感，这些都会无形中给孩子带来巨大压力。

You know, raising the eldest to the book whilst also battling the tension of becoming a parent and experiencing something new puts a lot of pressure on a kid, even unconsciously.

随着年龄增长，长子可能会对弟妹产生怨气，因为他们没经历过父母当初那种高压状态。

This can mean as we age, the eldest feels resentment towards their younger siblings because maybe they didn't get their parents in that high stress state.

也许弟妹们过得更轻松些。

Maybe they got it easier.

父母无意识或有意识的选择，会通过压力、焦虑和期望，反映在兄弟姐妹之间的关系里。

The choices of the parents, unconsciously or consciously, become reflected in the relationships of the siblings through stress, anxiety, and expectations.

第二个孩子出生时，家庭系统已经成型了。

Now the second child enters an already established family system.

父母这时候多半已经积累了一些经验，犯过一些错，也减轻了不少焦虑。

Your parents have likely naturally already learnt some lessons, made some mistakes, got rid of a bit of anxiety.

这有时会让中间的孩子感觉，父母在自己童年上投入的精力少了点。

And that can at times maybe make it feel like less effort is put into the childhood of the middle or second child.

我觉得这种情况在中间的孩子身上尤其明显。

This is, I think, especially the case for the middle child.

如果你父母在你之后又生了更多孩子，长子和幼子的强势存在，反而可能给中间的孩子形成一种缓冲。

So if your parents end up having more siblings after you, you know, the dominant force of the eldest and the dominant force of the youngest can create a kind of cushioning effect for the middle children.

任何年幼的孩子，尤其是最小的，出生时父母往往已经筋疲力尽、忙得不可开交，年长的孩子被赋予了更多责任，年幼的孩子则可能获得更多纵容或更少监督，而中间的孩子，往往要在这两个固定角色之间努力寻找自己的位置。

Any younger siblings, specifically youngest, are born into a family where your parents are probably already exhausted and busy, older children have been given more responsibility, younger children may receive more indulgence or less monitoring, Middle children may end up negotiating their identity in between these two established positions.

事情变得一团糟。

It gets it just gets messy.

所以随着你长大，你可能会觉得这不公平——尽管其实这并不是兄弟姐妹们的错，他们只是成了现在这样。

And it's why as you get older, you might be like, that's unfair even though it's not your siblings' fault they are the way they are.

这跟出生顺序有关。

It's birth order.

我不是说出生顺序决定了你本质上是谁，但它确实会影响你和兄弟姐妹之间的相处方式，因为你们被强加了某些角色，而这些角色源于父母的情绪。

And it's not to say birth order determines who you are inherently, but it does change how you relate to your siblings based on roles that have been forced upon you based on your parents' emotions.

父母和家庭，这正是我们反复提到的、导致兄弟姐妹之间冲突的核心原因。

Parents and and families, like, is a key thing we keep coming back to that creates conflict in in between siblings.

他们某种程度上决定了你是谁。

Like, they kinda decide who we are.

尤其是小时候，你很早就被赋予了一个角色。

Like, especially when we're young, we get a role.

父母对我们的看法会变得非常根深蒂固，因为这些看法源于他们自身的经历和内心世界，而这些往往对我们来说是个谜，却深刻影响着我们如何看待自己和兄弟姐妹。

Like, the ideas our parents have about who we are becomes quite firm because it's based on their own experiences, their own internal worlds, which often remain a mystery to us, and are incredibly influential on how we see ourselves and our siblings.

除了被赋予的角色之外，另一个导致兄弟姐妹竞争的重要因素，就是父母的偏爱。

There's another big contributor here to sibling rivalry beyond the roles were assigned, which is parental favoritism.

这可是个老生常谈的问题了。

It's an age old question.

现在都快成笑话了，父母真会有偏爱的孩子吗？

Kind of a joke at this point, like, do parents have favorites?

要是承认自己有偏爱，听起来有点调皮。

It's kind of cheeky to admit you do.

或者说，笑嘻嘻地讲‘我可没偏爱谁’，也挺逗的。

Or like funny to say like, oh, I don't have a favorite.

但我要真有偏爱的，那肯定就是你了。

Like, but if I did, it would be you.

你懂的。

Wink wink.

父母常拿这个开玩笑。

Like parents like to joke about it.

也许他们根本不开这种玩笑，那反而说明他们心里其实有偏爱。

Maybe they don't joke about it at all, meaning that it seems like they probably do have a favorite.

他们忘了这些事是很认真的。

And they forget that this stuff is serious.

首先，这影响孩子和父母的关系；更令人难过的是，它还深刻影响着成年后的兄弟姐妹之间的关系。

Firstly, it's serious for how kids relate to their parents, and it is really tragic for how kids relate to their siblings, especially as adults.

很多研究都谈到过这一点。

A lot of research talks about this.

我们先把这个说清楚。

Let's clear this up first and foremost.

研究确实表明，父母确实会有偏爱的孩子。

Research does say parents do have favourites.

就是这样。

Full stop.

父母确实有偏爱的孩子。

Parents have favourites.

今年美国心理学会发表了一篇文章，综合分析了30篇同行评审的研究，涵盖近两万名参与者，发现大多数父母都会表现出偏爱，尤其偏爱女儿、更守秩序和内向的孩子，以及年长的孩子。

An article published just this year by the American Psychological Association reviewed 30 peer reviewed journal articles encompassing almost 20,000 participants and found that overall the majority of parents showed preferential treatment, specifically for their daughters, for children who are more organised and introverted, and for the older children.

这种偏爱会通过几种方式表现出来。

This favouritism is shown a few ways.

比如，他们会更多地与这些孩子互动，花更多钱在他们身上，对他们更温柔、更积极。

So they may interact with these children more, they spend more money on them, they're more kind and positive to that child.

说实话，这事儿值得专门做一期，因为它真的会对人造成长久伤害。

To be honest, this deserves an entire episode because this really fucks people up.

它会深远影响一个人的自我认知和自尊心。

Like, it has a long term influence on our sense of self and our self esteem.

但今天这期，我们先聚焦在它如何影响兄弟姐妹之间的关系。

But for today's episode, let's just examine it in relation to our siblings.

几十年的研究表明，当孩子觉得某个兄弟姐妹得到了更多的关爱、支持、金钱、自由或认可时，那个被冷落的孩子往往会出现更多心理问题，兄弟姐妹之间的关系也更容易恶化。

Decades of research on parental differential or favoritism or or treatment shows that when children perceive one sibling as receiving more warmth, more support, money, freedom, approval, it tends to be associated with worse outcomes for the less favored sibling and poorer sibling relationship quality overall.

这些影响并不仅仅停留在童年，实际上主要体现在成年后。

And the impacts aren't only felt in childhood, they're felt primarily actually in adulthood.

一项针对年轻成年兄弟姐妹的研究发现，那些觉得自己不如兄弟姐妹被爱的人，抑郁症状更明显。

A study of young adult siblings found that siblings who felt less loved than a brother or a sister they had reported more depressive symptoms.

那些认为父母更偏爱其他孩子的人，与兄弟姐妹之间的亲密感也更弱。

And people who said their parents had a greater level of favoritism towards a different child also showed less intimacy with their siblings.

当你一直被灌输、被提醒说别人比你优秀时，哪怕对方是血脉相连、你本该爱着的人，你也很难真正和他亲近。

Because it's hard to be friendly with someone, even somebody who is a blood relative who you love, when you are constantly convinced and told that they are better than you.

另一项针对成年后兄弟姐妹关系的2014人研究也发现，成年后的手足亲密程度主要由两种模式决定。

A further 2,014 study looking at siblings specifically in later life also found that sibling closeness in adulthood is driven by two specific patterns.

研究人员分析了两千多对兄弟姐妹，得出了这个结论。

The researchers analyzed over 2,000 sibling pairs and discovered this.

首先，人们往往会向被偏爱的那一个靠拢。

First, there is a gravitation towards the favorite.

即使自己不是最受宠的孩子，很多人依然表示，自己和那个明显是母亲偏爱的兄弟姐妹最亲近。

People actually reported being closest to the sibling that they could tell was their mother's favorite even if they weren't the favorite themselves.

所以，有一个孩子不仅从父母那里得到更多关注，兄弟姐妹们也更关注他。

So one child gets more attention not just from the parent, but from their other siblings.

这被称为‘金童效应’。

Like, it's called the golden child effect.

这个孩子成了父母的中心，同时也把兄弟姐妹们连在了一起。

This child ends up as the hub for the parents, but also keeps the siblings connected as well.

第二，他们发现人们会疏远那个不被偏爱的兄弟姐妹。

Second, they found a distancing from the disfavored sibling.

而且，大家心里其实都清楚。

And again, people could tell.

尽管父母总说我们没有偏心，但孩子们心里门儿清。

Even though parents say we don't have a favorite, siblings knew.

如果某个兄弟姐妹被母亲明显冷落，他们就更不可能和这个人亲近。

They were significantly less likely to feel close to a brother or sister who was perceived as being less liked by their mother.

他们真正观察到的是，母亲的偏好其实向整个家庭传递了一种社交信号。

And what they really saw was that, like, the mother's preferences act as a social signal for the rest of the family.