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这是iHeartPodcast，保证真人出品。
This is an iHeartPodcast, Guaranteed Human.
我是梅丽莎·杰尔森，《她怎么了》播客的主持人。
I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of the What Happened to Her podcast.
我们这一季的开篇是桑德拉·伯奇莫尔的故事，这个案子被警方定性为暴风雪中的自杀。
We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Burchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm.
她的家人一直不相信，而他们怀疑的那个人，身上穿着警服。
Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge.
你永远不知道那个魔鬼是谁，因为他穿着
You never know who that devil is because he's wearing
伪装。
a disguise.
有时候是警服。
Sometimes it's a police uniform.
而且你可以通过iHeart真实犯罪Plus订阅，在Apple Podcasts上独家收听所有剧集，完全无广告，仅限iHeart真实犯罪Plus订阅用户。
And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an iHeart true crime plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart true crime plus subscribers.
所以别等了。
So don't wait.
去Apple Podcasts，搜索iHeart true crime plus，今天就订阅吧。
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart true crime plus, and subscribe today.
丽莎，跟他们说说我们的新节目。
Lisa, tell them about our new show.
我们有个新播客。
We have a new podcast.
名字叫《别骗我》。
It's called Don't Lie to Me.
我是莱克西·伊瓦努。
I'm Lexi Iwanu.
我们是最好的朋友，相差二十二岁，但心贴得很近。
We're two best friends, twenty two years apart, but so close at heart.
我是丽莎·迪朱利奥，年纪大的那个，所以我们的梗完全不同，偶尔观点也不一样。
And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions.
而到了这个年纪，
And at this point
五十多岁的我，什么都经历过了。
in my fifties, I've lived it all.
现在三十多岁的我，作为新鞋品牌的创始人，好品味就是我的事业。
Now in my thirties, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business.
可以在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的平台收听。
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨。
Hi.
我是凯莉·布雷克曼。
This is Kylie Brakeman.
安吉拉·格里托纳。
Angela Gerritona.
杰里米·科尔汉。
Jeremy Colhane.
帕特里克·麦克唐纳。
Patrick McDonald.
我们是“艺术家对艺术家对艺术家对艺术家”播客的主持人。
And we're the host of the artists on artists on artists on artists podcast.
这是一档即兴角色喜剧播客，每周都有新的艺术家小组讨论他们的创作。
The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.
加入我们，一起和欧洲歌唱大赛的参赛者们聊聊。
Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants.
有时候我们也会搞点万圣节活动。
And we do a little Halloween sometimes.
教皇会打扮吗？
Does the pope dress up?
他在万圣节会眨眨眼。
He he winks on Halloween.
他会直接
He gets right
接下来轮到麦克风了。
up next to the microphone.
你能听到我吗？
You can I hear you
几乎能听到睫毛碰撞的声音了？
can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other?
你从没见过意大利这么安静，就像教皇在万圣节站起来眨眼的时候。
You never seen Italy so quiet as when the pope gets up to wink on Halloween.
每周四收听《艺术家对艺术家对艺术家对艺术家》
Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists every Thursday
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的地方。
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是莱西·莫斯利，作家、演员、单口喜剧演员、创作者，也是《骗子女神》播客的主持人。
I'm Lacey Moseley, author, actor, stand up comedian, creator, and host of scam goddess podcast.
这是一档关于抢劫、诈骗的真实犯罪喜剧播客，
The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud,
以及那些从事这一行的人。
and those who practice it.
每周我都会请来一位很棒的嘉宾。
Each week, I bring on an amazing guest.
哦，我骗了他们。
Oh, I scammed them.
什么？
What?
我可以跟你聊一个小时。
I could talk to you for an hour.
你真是个天生的话痨，
You're a generational yapper
跟我一样。
like me.
这就是为什么我
That's why I
不得不
had to
把聊天变成工作。
make yapping a job.
现在你可以在YouTube上观看我节目的完整剧集。
And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube.
开始收听《骗子女神》，在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的地方都可以。
Start listening to scam goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
《骗子女神》。
Scam goddess.
所以，大概到11岁左右，
So, like, by age 11 or so, at
至少70%的人都有手机。
least 70% have a phone.
我是博士。
I'm Doctor.
乔伊，这里是《黑人女孩的心理治疗》。
Joy, and this is Therapy for Black Girls.
我们在《度过初中》系列中，探讨了孩子大脑里发生了什么、群聊和友谊，以及你能做些什么。
We spent our surviving middle school run getting into what's happening inside your kid's brain, the group chat, and their friendships, and what you can do about it.
你的孩子不是故意这么做的。
Your child is not doing this on purpose.
这就是我们从专门研究这个领域的心理学家和精神科医生那里得到的观点。
That's the kind of perspective we've been pulling from the psychologists and psychiatrists who study this for a living.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的地方，收听《黑人女孩的心理治疗》。
Listen to therapy for black girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
我是杰玛·斯派克，欢迎回到《二十多岁的心理学》，这个播客我们一起探讨二十多岁时的重大变化、时刻和转折，以及它们对我们的心理意味着什么。
I'm Jemma Spike, and welcome back to the psychologyofyour20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties, and what they mean for our psychology.
大家好。
Hello, everybody.
欢迎回到节目。
Welcome back to the show.
欢迎回到播客。
Welcome back to the podcast.
感谢你今天来听。
Thank you for joining me today.
这期节目比我们平时更随意一些，更像聊天。
I have more of a chatty episode for you than than we usually do.
我其实就想分享一下，聊聊我最近一直在自我剖析的一件事，看看你们有没有同感，是不是也有类似的感觉。
I kind of just wanted to share, chat, muse over something I've been psychoanalyzing a lot in myself recently, just to see if any of you relate and see if any of you feel the same way.
那就是我和野心之间的关系，以及随着我进入二十多岁后半段，这种关系正在发生怎样的变化。
And that is my relationship with ambition, and how that is changing as I enter my late twenties.
从我记事起，从我有了自己的个性和记忆开始，我一直是个很有野心的人。
As long as I can remember, and as long as I have been, I guess a person with a personality and a memory, I have been an ambitious person.
我说的野心，是指我一直想要从生活中得到很多，而且真的愿意为此付出努力。
And what I mean by ambitious is that I think I've been somebody who wanted lots from life and who was really okay with the hard work that it might take to get there.
而且就算在我小时候，你知道，我觉得人们不会用“有抱负”这个词，但他们肯定会用一些非常类似的词。
And even when I was a kid, you know, I don't think people would have used the word ambitious, but they certainly used words like, that were pretty similar.
你知道，我觉得人们会形容我非常固执、热情，可能还有点完美主义，而且目标明确。
Know, I think people would would have described me as very stubborn and enthusiastic and maybe a perfectionist and and goal driven.
我觉得直到今天，我的朋友们还是会这样形容我。
I think even to this day, it's how my friends would describe me.
我几乎可以肯定，每个和我约会过的人都会说我有抱负，不管这是好事还是坏事。
I'm pretty sure everybody I've ever dated would say that I am ambitious for better or for worse.
而且我当然知道，这是我父母特别引以为豪的一点，他们从我小时候就开始培养我这种品质。
And I certainly know that it's something that my parents feel particularly proud of, that they've kind of, you know, cultivated in me since I was a kid.
我觉得，有抱负加上一点好运气，确实让我在人生中得到了很多。
I think ambition alongside a good dose of luck has definitely gotten me a lot in my life so far.
你知道，我写了一本书，而且你现在正在听的这个播客还上过Netflix。
You know, I've written a book and this podcast that you are literally listening to was on Netflix.
而且你知道，我不会没完没了地讲，哦天哪，我取得了什么成就，哦，所有这些事情。
And you know, I'm not gonna go on and on about, oh my god, everything that I've achieved and oh, all these things.
所以这听起来很自大。
So that feels very arrogant.
但我确实觉得，我一直把一件事当成理所当然，那就是如果我在生活中想要什么，我真的觉得努力去争取并不难，而且对自己的能力有点盲目自信。
But I do think that I've taken for granted or as a given that if I want something in life, I really don't find it that difficult to work hard for it, and to be a little bit delusional about my ability to get it.
不过，我后来意识到的是，这种特质带来的代价，以及野心在过了一段时间后真正给你的，只是更多的野心。
What I've come to realize though, is the cost of that trait and how the only thing that ambition really gives you after a while is just more ambition.
还有更大的不足感，或者更害怕自己达不到自己的期望。
And a greater fear of inadequacy, or a greater fear that you are not living up to your own expectations.
我觉得这会造成一个空洞，到了某个阶段，任何成就都无法填补。
And I think it creates this void that just at some stage cannot be filled by any more accomplishments.
而且它带来的代价不仅仅是工作上的。
And it also comes with a cost that is more than just work.
你知道，你的人际关系会受影响，你的个性感会消失，你会因为没效率而感到非常内疚。
You know, your relationships suffer, your sense of personality kind of disappears, you feel very guilty about not being productive.
我觉得，说实话，它就像蚕食你生活的其他所有方面，以及你是谁的其他所有方面，直到它成为你唯一的东西。
And I think if we're being honest, it kind of just cannibalises all other aspects of your life, and all other aspects of who you are until it is the only thing that you are.
我觉得这很难，而且你越是投入其中，越是把它看作是你能为世界或自己提供的最好的东西，就越难认清自己除了野心或生产力之外到底是什么样的人。
I think it's very hard and it gets very hard to know who you are beyond your ambition or beyond your productivity the more you lean into it and the more that you kind of see it as the greatest thing that you have to offer the world or yourself.
所以今天我想聊聊这个话题。
So I wanna talk about it today.
我想谈谈我是如何意识到，我的野心可能并不是我以为的那个朋友。
I wanna talk about how I've come to the realization that my ambition might not be the friend that I thought it was.
我们怎样才能在没有野心的情况下发现自己是谁。
How we can discover who we are without our ambition.
以及我们一开始是如何陷入这种成就情结的。
And just how we get wrapped up in this accomplishment complex to begin with.
我也不知道。
And I don't know.
我们怎么一起摆脱它呢？
How are we gonna get out of it together?
你和我。
You and I.
所以我对这期节目非常期待。
So I'm very excited for this episode.
这期节目很个人化。
It's a personal one.
希望你们喜欢。
I hope you enjoy it.
话不多说，让我们进入野心这个复杂的心理话题。
Without further ado, let's get into the complicated psychology of ambition.
我想先聊聊我自己和野心之间的关系是怎么随着时间变化的，从童年到青少年，再到现在的成年时期。
So I want to begin with kind of talking about how my own relationship with ambition has developed over time from when I was a child, to a teenager, to now being an adult.
因为我觉得这是一个大家都很熟悉、也很有共鸣的故事。
Because I do think that it's a familiar and fairly relatable story.
特别是如果你小时候就是个成绩优异的孩子，或者你是家里的老大、长女，或者你来自一个特别强调成就的家庭。
Particularly if you yourself were a high achiever as a kid, or you are the the eldest child, the eldest daughter in your family, or you came from a particular kind of family where there was a real message of accomplishment.
关于野心，心理学里有一点值得了解：野心被视为一种非常人性化的人格特质。
Something to know about ambition and how it's spoken about specifically in psychology is that ambition is seen as a personality trait that is distinctly human.
其他哺乳动物和其他动物，它们可能想要权力，可能想要控制权，或者领导地位，或者资源，但没有其他生物会像人类那样追求那种成功。
Other mammals and other animals, like, they may want power, they may want control, or leadership, or resources, but no other creature wants the kind of success that humans seem to want.
这种成功不仅仅是资源，也不仅仅是别人怎么看自己，它超越了声誉方面的考虑。
Which is more than just resources, and more than just being seen a certain way by others, it's it's more than reputational concerns.
它真的是一种成就感，是对某件事的个人自豪感。
It's really a sense of achievement and it's a sense of personal pride in something.
而且我认为野心与人类对意义的追求，以及我们渴望感到重要、感到自己有价值有关。
And I think ambition links back to our human search for meaning, and our desire to feel important and like we matter.
我觉得其他动物似乎不会为这种事情操心。
And I just don't think that that's something that other animals seem to be preoccupied by.
特别是，我认为野心带有这样一种感觉：你知道，如果我实现了这个目标，得到了这个，我有所成就，做出了让自己骄傲的东西，那么我就会变得重要，我会有所价值，我的生活就会有别人能认可的目的，因此会感觉更有意义。
Particularly, I think with ambition there is this sense that, you know, if I achieve this thing and I get this and I make something of myself and I make something that I'm proud of, then I will be important and I will matter and my life will have some purpose that others can recognise and therefore it will feel more valid.
所以很快就变得非常哲学化了。
So it gets very philosophical very quickly.
在心理学中，野心也不同于抱负。
Ambition in psychology as well is also different to aspiration.
我真的觉得这一点很重要，因为单纯的抱负是想要比自己更大的东西，或者想要一个具体的目标，或者实现一个梦想，这通常是很健康的。
And I really think that this is important to know because aspiration on its own is a wanting something bigger than yourself or wanting a specific goal or to realise a dream that is often quite healthy.
它是一种单一的东西，只为你自己，给你结构和目标。
And it's a singular kind of thing and it's just for you and provides structure and purpose.
而野心是一种无处不在的特质，或者是一种生活方式，或者看待世界的方式，它根本没有终点。
Ambition is this pervasive trait or way of being or seeing the world that literally has no end.
没有最终的目标。
There is no final goal.
没有最终满足的时刻。
There is no final moment of satisfaction.
野心的任务永远不会完成，我觉得奖品总是遥不可及。
The task of ambition is never accomplished and I think the prize is always out of reach.
这就是为什么它有时在心理上那么艰难。
And that is what makes it so kind of mentally difficult at times.
在某些文化中，我认为野心和贪婪也常常被等同起来。
In some cultures, I think ambition is very synonymous as well with greed.
所以它名声不太好。
And it gets a bad reputation.
某种程度上被视为一种缺点。
It's somewhat seen as a vice.
被视为一种邪恶。
It's seen as an evil.
而且我真的觉得，年纪越大，我越能理解这一点。
And I really think the older I've gotten, the more I get that.
野心真的能把人变成另一个人。
Ambition can really turn people into someone that they're not.
它可能让我们完全忽视他人。
It can cause us to really disregard others.
我觉得我见过，你也见过。
I feel like I've seen it, you've seen it.
毫无疑问，它会暴露出我们丑陋的一面。
And there is no doubt that it brings out some ugly sides of ourselves.
但我觉得个人的代价也很大。
But I think the personal cost is also really great.
当你长期追求野心时，在很多方面，它就成了你唯一的任务。
Feeding your ambition, when you've done it for long enough, becomes your sole task in many ways.
只要能满足野心，什么途径你都会去尝试。
Whatever avenue you can feed your ambition through, you will do so.
人们谈论它时，好像你根本没有选择。
And the way that it's spoken about is that you don't really have a choice.
好像这是你与生俱来的东西。
Like it's something that you are you're kind of born with.
这就是我们所说的内在特质。
It's what we would call intrinsic.
我也觉得这跟我们的成长环境有关。
I also think it comes from how we were raised.
而且有时候，它也会演变成一种应对机制或生存策略，用来应对你年轻时的处境。
And I also think that at times it evolves as a bit of a coping mechanism or a survival strategy against the circumstances of when you were younger.
我自己就特别有这种感觉。
And I see that particularly for myself.
就像我说的，你知道，回顾我自己的成长经历，我基本上一直都是这样。
As I said, you know, I'm fairly certain historically, like looking into my own autobiographical memory, like I've always somewhat been this way.
但我也觉得小时候的我更有抱负，更多的是被好奇心和热爱驱动。
But I also think as a kid I was more aspirational and like driven by curiosity and a love for things.
但到了高中，那种感觉就没了，从那时起，我变成了大写的“野心”，而不是小写的“抱负”。
And then that kind of stopped when I got to high school and that's when I became ambitious with a capital A rather than aspirational with a lowercase a.
我之所以变得有野心，是因为我觉得我的野心和它能带来的东西，可以弥补我内心深处的一些不安全感。
And the reason I became ambitious is because I believe I saw my ambition and what it could bring me as a way to compensate for some really, really deep insecurities.
我真的觉得自己不属于那里。
I really didn't belong.
我真的觉得自己没什么朋友。
I really didn't feel like I have many friends.
我之前在播客里也说过，你知道，我当时非常孤独。
I've spoken about this before on the podcast, but you know, I was very lonely.
我那时候也挺，怎么说呢，算是长得不好看的小孩吧，对，我就是个丑小孩，还是个怪小孩，行为古怪，喜欢的东西也奇怪，而且因为没什么朋友，我特别热情过度，这对我社交也没啥帮助，因为我就是特别想融入某个圈子。
I was also a pretty like, I don't know, like to say ugly kid, but yeah, I was a little ugly kid and I was a weird kid and I was odd and I was interested in strange things and I was overzealous because I didn't have any friends and I don't think that really helped me socially either because I just really wanted to be part of a group.
我很早就明白了一个道理：如果我不能成为最受欢迎的人，或者最漂亮、最聪明的人，那我至少可以成为最努力的那个人。
And what I learnt pretty early on was that, you know, if I couldn't be the most liked or the hottest or the smartest, at least I could be the person who works the hardest.
而这件事本身就会带来它自己的回报。
And that in itself will bring its own kind of reward.
特别是，它肯定会让某一类人更喜欢你，那就是大人。
In particular, it would definitely mean that one group of people specifically will like you more, which is adults.
如果我有抱负、有成就，大人就会更关注我。
Adults will pay more attention to me if I'm ambitious and accomplished.
你知道，我们整个教育体系，以及人生前十八年，基本上都是围绕评分和排名来运转的，这个体系奖励那些有野心的孩子，却不给他们其他生存方式。
You know, our whole schooling system and the first eighteen years of our life really is centralised around a grading system and a ranking system, and a system that rewards ambition in kids without actually giving them other ways to function.
比如，一周里塞满最多课外活动就能得奖，全A学生有奖，学术表现突出也有奖，我十几岁的时候真的特别投入这些。
You know, are prizes for the most extracurriculars that you can jam into a week, and there's prizes for being a straight a student and for being very academic, and I really sunk my teeth into that as a teenager.
野心对我来说就像一个避风港。
Ambition was like this safe haven for me.
你知道，如果我对别人怎么看我或者我怎么感觉没有别的能控制的了，我总能依靠我的野心。
You know, if there was nothing else I can control about how others perceive me or how I feel, I can always rely on my ambition.
这也是能让我摆脱这个我不想再待的处境的东西。
It's also what's going to get me out of this situation that I don't want to be in anymore.
你知道，我确实觉得我在成长的地方不太合群，而这可能，也确实让我去了一所很远的好学校。
You know, I don't Didn't feel like I really fit in where I grew up and it could have, and it did get me to a good school far far away.
当我做到的时候，我有点想，好吧，这才是我人生真正开始的地方。
And when I did that, I kind of thought, well this is where my life can really begin.
这里还有一个深刻且不可避免的关系，我想说，就是野心、赞美和自尊之间的关系。
There's also a deep and unavoidable relationship here between, I would say ambition, praise and self esteem.
心理学家对此有一个术语。
Psychologists have a term for this.
叫做“条件性自我价值”。
It's called contingent self worth.
这是一种自尊，它基于他人的认可，特别是针对你非常擅长且觉得特别重要或有价值的一件事或一个领域。
And it is a type of self esteem that is based on the approval of others specifically for one thing or one domain that you're very good at and that feels particularly important or valuable for you.
这两位心理学家非常出色，我强烈推荐他们的研究，他们叫詹妮弗·克罗克和康妮·威尔夫，来自密歇根大学。
These two psychologists, and they're amazing and I really recommend their work, their names are Jennifer Crocker and Connie Wilf, they're from the University of Michigan.
他们在2000年代初提出了这个模型，认为我们每个人在某些特定领域会特别在意自己的自尊。
They developed this kind of model in the early two thousands that argues that we all have certain domains where we tend to stake our self esteem.
对有些人来说，那个领域可能是外貌。
For some people that might be their appearance.
他们对自己的感觉完全取决于自己的长相。
They really stake how they feel about themselves on how they look.
对另一些人来说，是恋爱中的认可或者被人喜欢。
For others it's romantic approval or being liked.
还有一些人，是竞争，是体育。
For others it's competition, it's sports.
而对某些人来说，就是纯粹的野心。
And for some people it's just pure ambition.
当那个领域进展顺利时，比如你在体育比赛中表现出色，或者有人夸你好看，或者你交到了男朋友，我们的自尊就会得到提升。
When something goes well in that domain, so you do really well at a sporting event, you get complimented on your looks, you get a boyfriend, our self esteem gets a boost.
我们在某件事上感觉越好，或者得到的回报越多，就越会把它当作提升自我感觉的有效途径，因为我们从中得到了正向的强化。
The more we feel good or rewarded for that specific thing, the more we chase it as a viable way to feel better about ourselves because of the positive reinforcement we are receiving.
所以，如果你把自我价值寄托在野心上面，那么野心勃勃就会成为你自我感觉良好的方式，而成就满满也会成为你自我感觉良好的方式。
So if ambition becomes the place where you've decided your worth lives, the abundance of ambition becomes how you feel good about ourselves, and the abundance of accomplishment also becomes the way we feel good about ourselves.
这样一来，我们的自尊就变得非常狭窄，完全依赖于我们自身的某一部分，这让我们变得非常脆弱。
And our self esteem becomes very narrow, and it becomes very singularly dependent on this one part of who we are, and that leaves us very vulnerable.
你可以看到，这种关系在年轻的时候是多么容易被强化。
You can see how easily that relationship gets reinforced when you're young.
如果你努力学习，得了A，就会得到老师们的各种表扬。
If you study really hard and you get an A, you get all this praise from your teachers.
你的父母也会为你感到骄傲。
Your parents are proud of you.
也许你的名字还会出现在光荣榜上。
Maybe your name goes on like an honor board.
也许那些平时不怎么注意你的同学，突然就把你当成聪明人、成功者，还会来向你请教问题。
Maybe the other kids who don't particularly notice you socially, sometimes like suddenly know you as the smart one, the successful one, they ask you for help.
成就给你一种在心理上极其强大且让人上瘾的东西，那就是一条通往积极关注的可靠途径。
Achievement gives you something extremely psychologically powerful and addictive, which is a reliable route to positive attention.
我觉得不像受欢迎、有魅力，甚至不像别人想不想跟你做朋友那样，有野心，尤其是年轻的时候，就像我说的，感觉是可控的，因为有规则，通常还有评分标准和等级体系。
I think unlike popularity, or unlike attractiveness, or even unlike whether somebody wants to be your friend, being ambitious, particularly when you are young, as I said, feels controllable because there are rules and often there is a rubric and there is a hierarchy.
而且你知道自己什么时候做得好，什么时候做得不好。
And there is you know when you're doing well versus when you're not.
这意味着它变成了一场我们通过足够练习就能玩得非常非常好、非常容易的游戏。
And that means that it becomes a game that we can play very very well and very very easily with enough practice.
所以这基本上就是我们变得依赖或沉迷于野心的路径。
So this is basically the pathway in how we become dependent or addicted to ambition.
因为它给了我们一种社交上的和某种自我认可，这种认可我们在别处得不到，甚至可能从未体验过。
Because it's giving us a social and a kind of self approval that we cannot get elsewhere and that we maybe have never known.
当然，也存在一种健康的野心水平。
Now there is of course a healthy level of ambition.
我只是觉得我从来没能找到它，因为野心在心理上对我来说意味着什么，以及它过去在社交上对我意味着什么，它已经并且仍然与那么多其他有意义和重要的事情交织在一起，以至于无法把它从其他一切中分离出来。
I just don't think I've ever been able to find it because because of what ambition represents for me psychologically, and because of what it has represented for me in the past socially, it just became and is still, so intertwined with all these other meaningful things and important things that it cannot be isolated away from everything else.
那么，最近几年对我来说到底发生了什么变化？
So what exactly has changed for me in recent years?
因为尽管我对野心带给我的东西心存感激，但我和许多人一样，已经变得非常失望。
Because as grateful as I am to what my ambition has given me, I like many others have become very disillusioned.
这就是这一整集要讲的内容。
That's what this whole episode is about.
而且我确实认为，在某个阶段我们会达到一个临界点，而这个临界点对每个人来说都会不同。
And I do think that at some stage we reach a tipping point, and what that tipping point is is gonna be different for everyone.
但最终你会到达那里。
But eventually you get there.
所以我们要来聊聊这个。
So we're gonna talk about this.
我们马上要聊聊是什么让我开始质疑自己的野心，甚至可能想暂时放下它。
We're gonna talk about what's kind of driven me to question my ambition and maybe want a break from it in just a second.
所以请继续收听。
So stay with us.
我是梅丽莎·杰尔辛，What Happened to Her 播客的主持人。
I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of the What Happened to Her podcast.
我们这一季的开篇是桑德拉·伯奇莫尔的故事，一个被警方认定为暴风雪中自杀的案件。
We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Burchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm.
她的家人从来不相信这个结论，而他们怀疑的那个人，身上穿着警服。
Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.
你永远不知道那个魔鬼是谁，因为他戴着伪装。
You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise.
有时候，伪装就是一身警服。
Sometimes it's a police uniform.
而且，通过 iHeart True Crime Plus 订阅，你可以在 Apple Podcasts 上独家收听所有节目，完全无广告，仅限 iHeart True Crime Plus 订阅用户。
And you can get access to all episodes a 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers.
所以别等了。
So don't wait.
快去 Apple Podcasts，搜索 iHeart True Crime Plus，今天就订阅吧。
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
嗨。
Hi.
我是凯莉·布雷克曼。
This is Kylie Brakeman.
安吉拉·杰里塔纳。
Angela Gerritana.
杰里米·科尔汉。
Jeremy Colhane.
帕特里克·麦克唐纳。
Patrick McDonald.
我们是《艺术家谈艺术家》的主持人。
And we're the hosts Artists on Artists on Artists
这是一档即兴角色喜剧播客，每周都有新的艺术家小组讨论他们的技艺。
The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.
加入我们，一起听听健康领域博主的讨论吧。
Join us for a panel of wellness influencers.
我尝试做的是假装写日记。
What I try to do is faux journal.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你们听说过假装写日记吗？
Have you guys heard of faux journaling?
那就是阅读。
It's reading.
那叫阅读。
It's called reading.
所以我们不再用那个词了。
So you're so we don't like to use that word anymore.
好的。
Okay.
一群《纽约客》漫画家组成的讨论组。
A panel of New Yorker cartoonists.
你们上过特里·格罗斯的Peloton课程吗？
Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class?
没有。
No.
我也一直想去上。
I've been dying too.
太遗憾了。
I'm so sorry.
我，我，我要去仙境书店参加奥德拉·麦克唐纳朗读《千纸鹤》的活动，在十四街那家。
I'm I'm I'm seeing a reading of Sadako and the thousand thousand paper cranes by Audra McDonald at the Wonderland bookstore on fourteenth.
太厉害了。
That's crazy.
我昨天去了仙境书店，听到诺拉·琼斯朗读《猎杀本·拉登》。
I went to the Wonderland bookstore yesterday, and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of zero dark 30.
不会吧。
No way.
不过我还是喜欢最后一家书店。
I of the last bookstore, though.
金·凯特罗尔在朗读昨天的吉他谱。
Kim Cattrall is reading the guitar tabs of yesterday.
一个欧洲歌唱大赛参赛者的小组讨论。
A panel of Eurovision participants.
我们有时候也会搞点万圣节活动。
And we do a little Halloween sometimes.
教皇会打扮吗？
Does the pope dress up?
他在万圣节那天会眨眨眼。
He he winks on Halloween.
他会凑到麦克风跟前。
He gets right up next to the microphone.
你能听到你说话吗？
You can I hear you
几乎能听到睫毛在互相讨厌？
can almost hear the eyelashes hate each other?
你从没见过意大利这么安静，就像万圣节教皇站起来眨眼的时候。
You never seen Italy so quiet as when the pope gets up to wink on Halloween.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或你收听播客的任何地方，收听艺术家们的节目。
Listen to artists on artists on on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
丽莎，我们应该告诉他们我们的新节目。
Lisa, we should tell them about our new show.
天哪，莱克西。
Oh my god, Lexi.
我们有个新播客。
We have a new podcast.
名字叫《别对我说谎》
It's called Don't Lie
《别对我撒谎》
To Me.
我是莱克西·伊瓦努。
I'm Lexi Iwanu.
我们是最好的朋友，相差二十二岁，但心贴得很近。
We're two best friends, twenty two years apart, but so close at heart.
我是丽莎·迪朱利奥，年纪大的那个，这意味着我们的经历和喜好很不一样，有时观点也不同。
And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions.
到了我这个年纪，
And at this point in my
五十多岁，什么都经历过了。
fifties, I've lived it all.
吵架解决不了任何问题。
I'm not gonna get anywhere fighting.
那真是太不可思议了。
That is wild.
我学会了
I learned
关于你今天的情况。
that about you today.
现在到了三十多岁，作为新鞋品牌的创始人，好品味就是我的事业，而且我总有话要说。
Now in my thirties, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say.
如果男人们能坦诚面对这一点，世界会和平得多。
If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world.
我们会聊约会、感情、美容、变老，还有变得更聪明一点。
We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser.
我们是最好的朋友，但意见不一定总是一致。
We're best friends, but we don't always agree.
因为你告诉了我们你有多随和。
Because you told us how accommodating you are.
显然，我会尽力去抗争，但我的精力也有限。
Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.
别骗我。
Don't lie to me.
别骗我。
Don't lie to me.
别骗我，别骗我。
Don't lie to Don't lie to me.
别对我这样。
Don't to me.
骗子。
Liar.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts 或你收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我真的不在乎。
I don't really care.
我是莱西·莫斯利，作家、演员、单口喜剧演员、创作者，也是《骗子女神》播客的主持人。
I'm Lacey Moseley, author, actor, stand up comedian, creator, and host of scam goddess podcast.
这个真实犯罪喜剧播客，讲的都是抢劫案，
The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery,
欺诈，以及那些实施欺诈的人。
fraud, and those who practice it.
每周，我都会邀请像柯南·奥布莱恩、艾奥瓦·黛布拉、拉莫恩·莫里斯和妮可·拜尔这样的优秀嘉宾。
Each week, I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debra, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer.
哦，我骗了他们。
Oh, I scammed them.
什么？
What?
我可以跟你聊一个小时。
I could talk to you for an hour.
你是个天生的话痨，
You're a generational yapper
跟我一样。
like me.
这就是为什么我
That's why I
所以只好把聊天当成工作了。
had to make yapping a job.
而且骗局五花八门。
And the scams run the gamut.
我说的是从十九世纪一直到今天的各种骗局。
I'm talking about scams from the eighteen hundreds all the way up to today.
我还会提醒你，保护你，让你远离骗子。
I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers.
记得给爷爷奶奶打电话。
Call your grandparents.
告诉爸妈别再乱点链接了，拜托了。
Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please.
现在你可以在YouTube上看我节目的完整版。
And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube.
只要有骗局，我就在这里保护你，也在这里陪你一起笑。
If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you, and I'm also here to laugh with you.
所以如果你喜欢有趣的内容，喜欢喜剧，喜欢学习并且保护自己免受罪犯侵害，那就开始在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts 或者任何你收听播客的地方收听《Scam Goddess》吧。
So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
《Scam Goddess》。
Scam Goddess.
到大约11岁时，
By age 11 or so, at
至少70%的孩子已经有手机了。
least 70% have a phone.
中学和我们当年成长的环境完全不一样了。
Middle school is a different world than the one we grew up in.
我是乔伊医生，这里是《黑人女孩的心理疗愈》。
I'm doctor Joy, and this is therapy for black girls.
在我们的《度过中学》系列中，我们花了很多时间讨论这个话题，邀请了儿童心理学家和一位自己也在养育两个黑人女孩的精神科医生，来聊聊我们的孩子现在到底在经历什么。
We spend real time on it in our surviving middle school run, bringing in a child psychologist and a psychiatrist who's raising two black girls of his own to talk about what's really going on with our kids right now.
所以这真的是生理上、神经上和心理上的混乱同时发生。
So it's literally physiological and neurological and psychological chaos happening all at the same time.
我们聊了群聊、游戏、友谊和霸凌，还有怎么区分健康的监督和那种破坏信任的监视。
We got into group chats and gaming, friendships and bullying, and how to tell the difference between healthy monitoring and the kind of surveillance that erodes trust.
有一种归属感。
There's belonging.
你可以把归属感理解为：我可以做自己，同时仍然被接受。
You could think of belonging as I can be myself and I can still be accepted.
还有一种叫融入。
And then there's fitting in.
融入意味着我必须改变自己，才能避免被排斥。
Fitting in says I have to change who I am in order to avoid rejection.
然后我们把话题转向父亲们，和治疗师基尔·盖恩斯坐下来聊了聊黑人父亲的角色，以及在这个阶段抚养女儿意味着什么。
Then we turn the conversation toward the fathers, sitting down with therapist, Kier Gaines, on black fatherhood and what it means to raise a daughter through this stage.
你没穿短裤，不能翻跟头。
You don't have on shorts, you can't do flips.
你穿的是裙子。
You have on a dress.
你得把腿交叉起来。
You have to cross your legs.
这就是本期节目的范围，从屏幕时间到身份认同，再到在家努力的父亲们。
That's the range of this run, from screen time to identity to the fathers doing the work at home.
我们得放下手机。
We have to get off our device.
但现实是，生活中有很多精彩，我们作为你生活中的成年人，不希望你们错过。
But the reality is there's a lot of life out there that we don't want you as your adult in their life to miss out on.
本期《度过初中》节目由那些毕生致力于研究这些问题的人们为您呈现。
This has been our surviving middle school run brought to you by the people who spend their careers thinking about exactly this.
我是乔伊医生。
I'm doctor Joy.
欢迎在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的平台收听《黑人女孩的心理治疗》。
Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
所以我觉得本期节目下半部分的问题是，在野心被视为盟友这么多年之后，它什么时候开始变成一种诅咒？
So I think the question for the second half of this episode is when does ambition start to become a curse after so many years of it kind of being seen as an ally?
对很多人来说，临界点就是精疲力尽。
The tipping point for a lot of people is just burnout.
野心非常消耗人。
Ambition is very all consuming.
说实话，它根本不在乎你生活是否平衡。
And let's be real, it really doesn't care about if you're balanced.
它也不在乎你是否感到满足，是否有朋友，是否有时间陪家人。
It really doesn't care about if you're fulfilled or if you have friends or if you have time for your family.
你生活中的其他一切都被降级，被视为不重要。
Everything else in your life is demoted and it's seen as unimportant.
野心只用一个标准来衡量，那就是成功、认可和骄傲，而且越多越好。
Ambition really only operates on one metric and one dimension, which is success and recognition and pride and as much of those things as we can get.
问题是，这些情绪和感受的心理保质期很短。
The thing is that those emotional states and those feelings have a very short psychological shelf life.
我的意思是，那种骄傲的感觉，那种“我做得不错，我很开心，我真的做成了什么事”的感觉。
What I mean by that is that a feeling of pride and a feeling of like, okay, I'm doing okay here and I feel happy and I feel like I've really done something good.
那种感觉只能持续几周到几个小时，因为我们的野心会让我们很快又感到不满足。
That can only last anywhere from a few weeks to a few hours because our ambition is we'll we'll inevitably be hungry again.
它必然会想要更多。
It will inevitably want more.
比如说，你知道，我在自己生活中也看到了这一点，最近我非常喜欢的一个东西就是Substack，在上面写文章。
For example, you know, and I've seen this in my own life, a big thing that I've been loving recently is Substack and writing on Substack.
有一段时间，我基本上就是没有任何期待地去做这件事。
And for a while, I kind of just did it with no expectations.
我就是因为真的很喜欢才去做，我觉得那是互联网上一个非常宁静和舒适的小角落，说实话，现在依然如此。
And I just kind of did it because I really loved it and I felt like it was this very serene and cozy corner of the internet, and it still very much is if I'm being honest.
但后来我开始有了订阅者，也开始有了关注者。
But then I started to get subscribers and I started to get followers.
然后就这样了。
And that was it.
就这样了。
That was it.
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就是这样，仅此而已。
That was like, that's all.
你知道吗，我那颗野心勃勃的心看到这个之后，就想，好吧，现在这里是我们的地盘了。
You know, my ambitious mind was kind of like, took that, saw that and was like, okay, well this is our terrain now.
我们要从这里接管一切。
We're gonna take over from here.
这突然让我变得非常执着。
And it suddenly made me very obsessive.
这也意味着它不再有趣了。
And it meant that it wasn't fun anymore.
几周前我的订阅者达到了40万。
And I reached like 400,000 subscribers a couple of weeks back.
那是一个惊人的数字。
And that's an insane number of people.
那一刻的感觉非常棒，就像，哇，我为此付出了很多努力。
And it was this amazing feeling for a second of like, wow, I've worked really hard at this.
我真的觉得和这个社区很亲近。
I feel really connected to this community.
我有一种成就感。
I feel a sense of accomplishment.
那种感觉大概只持续了四十八小时，然后我就又开始想着下一个目标，想着这个那个的。
That lasted literally, I would say forty eight hours before I was like preoccupied with the next milestone, and preoccupied with this and that.
这就是野心的诅咒。
This is the curse of ambition.
这真的不好玩。
Like, that's not fun.
有那种感觉一点都不开心。
It is not fun to feel that way.
但野心告诉你，不需要好玩。
But it Ambition tells you that it doesn't need to be fun.
过程不需要有趣，因为结果值得。
The the process doesn't need to be fun because the outcomes it produces will be worth it.
而且它不会告诉你那些小字条款，就是结果带来的快感，跟你花在达成这个结果上的时间相比，只是一瞬间的事。
And it doesn't tell you the kind of fine print, which is that the outcome is only ever gonna feel good for a second compared to the time you spent to get that outcome.
你可能听说过另一个心理学名词。
You may have heard of another psychology term for this.
挺有名的，叫享乐跑步机。
Pretty well known, the hedonic treadmill.
享乐跑步机，也叫享乐适应，指的是我们倾向于并且有能力去适应环境的变化，尤其是那些改善。
And hedonic treadmill or hedonic adaptation as it's also known, is our tendency and our ability to adapt to changes in our circumstances, particularly improvements.
那些曾经看起来非凡、令人惊叹、改变人生的东西，最终会变得非常平常。
The thing that once seemed extraordinary and amazing and life changing eventually becomes very normal.
而我们的期望也随之水涨船高。
And our expectations kind of rise alongside that.
关于雄心壮志的研究非常多，发现那些非常有野心的人，达成目标后确实会产生积极的情绪。
There's been so much research on ambition that has found that people who are highly ambitious achieving a goal for them does still produce positive emotions.
但是这些情绪上的好处和积极情绪，并不像其他人那样持久。
But those emotional benefits and the positive emotions are not necessarily as permanent as they are for others.
特别是如果你是一个追求成就和成功，但内心却带着渴望、缺失或空虚感的人。
Especially if you are somebody who is pursuing achievement and pursuing success from a place of longing or lacking or emptiness.
这些成就和成功只有一个心理作用，那就是让你不觉得自己不好。
They only serve one psychological purpose, which is to not make you feel bad about yourself.
我想我刚刚意识到的是，这些都不再让我感到快乐了。
I think I guess what I just realised was that none of this is making me happy anymore.
但我也做了所有这些事情，我那么努力工作，我牺牲了那么多，然后呢？
But also I do all this stuff, I work so hard, I sacrifice, and then what?
很多时候，我们的野心其实根本不会带来回报。
A lot of the time, our ambition actually doesn't even have a payout anyways.
前几天我正好和一个听众聊到这个，她写信来，她是在找工作的背景下说的，她刚大学毕业，正在找一份毕业生工作。
And I was actually talking to a listener about this the other day who wrote in, And she was talking about this in the context of looking for work, and she's just graduated uni and she's looking for a grad job.
她基本上说的是，她整个学生时代都是全优生，非常优秀的学生，她坚信努力学习、放弃周末、做所有额外的事情是通往稳定幸福生活的秘诀。
And what she basically said was that she spent her whole life being straight a student, amazing student, convinced that working hard, giving up weekends, doing everything extra was a secret to a stable happy life.
现在她在找工作，却找不到。
And now she's looking for a job and she can't get one.
她一个回音都没收到，一点机会都没有，她就觉得，我什么都做对了。
And she doesn't get any callbacks, she doesn't get any bites, and she's like, I've done everything right.
我这么有抱负。
I'm so ambitious.
而那份曾经许诺很多的抱负，到头来只让我感到极度失望。
And the ambition that promised so much has really just left me feeling awfully disappointed.
她其实意识到的是，她本可以把那些时间都用来享受生活。
And what she essentially was realising was like, could have spent all that time actually enjoying myself.
但她没有，因为她被灌输了一个谎言。
And I didn't because I was sold this kind of lie.
我们总有一种奇怪的感觉，觉得必须努力工作才能确保未来过得好，这样，你知道，二三十年以后就不用担心钱的问题，可以好好享受生活，这确实很重要。
There is this weird sense where we feel like we need to work hard to secure a good future so that, you know, in twenty five, thirty years we won't have to worry about money and we can enjoy ourselves and that is a very important thing.
但如果我们有一种更温和的抱负，我们本可以一直享受生活，而不是等到最后才享受。
But we could have been enjoying ourselves the whole time rather than just at the end if we'd had a gentler form of ambition.
这跟我之前说的有关联。
This relates to something I said just before.
野心除了带来更多的野心，还能给我们什么呢？
What does ambition really give us other than simply more ambition?
你知道吗，这有个奇怪的比喻。
You know, there's a strange metaphor.
这里面可能真的藏着一个谜语，是什么呢？我也不知道。
There's probably like a riddle in this really, which is I don't know, what could the riddle be?
就像，什么东西越喂它越饿？
Like, what's what's something that gets hungrier the more you feed it?
那就是野心。
That is that is ambition.
那就是我们的成就感。
That is our sense of accomplishment.
你给得越多，它要得越多。
The more you give it, the more it wants.
它就是个无底洞。
It is a bottomless pit.
不过对我来说，我个人觉得我的转折点是我意识到野心其实并没有让我成为一个快乐或者全面发展的人。
For me though, I personally think my turning point was when I realised ambition didn't actually make me a happy or well rounded person.
具体来说，触发我的是我在度假的时候。
Specifically, what was the trigger for me was when I was on vacation.
就是我在休假的时候。
When I was on holiday.
上周我和一大群朋友在法国南部，他们是我最好的朋友。
And I was in the South Of France last week with a big group of my friends and these are like my best friends.
我们大家一起凑钱租了一个漂亮的Airbnb，我们做新鲜的鱼，去海滩，喝酒，吃饭，玩游戏。
And we've all chipped in for this beautiful Airbnb and we're cooking fresh fish, and we're going to the beach, and we're having wine, and we're eating, we're playing games.
但我真的无法放松。
And I could genuinely not relax.
如果那天我没有至少工作几个小时，我就无法活在当下。
I could not be in the present moment if I had not done at least a couple hours of work that day.
我就是做不到。
Like, I couldn't do it.
有一天，大家都坐渡轮去了一个岛上，而我留在家里工作。
And on one of the days, everyone went on this ferry to this island and I stayed home and I worked.
其实我根本不需要那样。
And I didn't need to.
我本来可以开完会，然后再去找他们。
Like, I could have taken my meeting and gone and joined them later.
但那是一种强迫症。
But it was this compulsion.
就像是一种强迫症。
Like it was a compulsion.
我当时觉得，我必须先挣得享受的资格，还没做够工作就不能放松。
I was like, I have to earn my enjoyment and I haven't done enough work to relax yet.
我觉得这就像很多其他不健康的思维方式一样。
I just think that is like so many other forms of disordered thinking.
你知道，就像觉得我们必须挣得卡路里或者某些食物一样。
You know, believing that we have to earn calories or earn certain foods.
觉得我们必须通过锻炼才能挣得休息。
Believing that we have to earn rest through exercise.
觉得我们必须挣得爱。
Believing that we have to earn love.
这太相似了。
It's so similar.
就是觉得我需要从我的野心那里获得许可，才能真正享受生活。
It is believing that I need to earn permission from my ambition to actually enjoy my life.
我当时就想，这多可怕啊？
And I was just kind of like, how how horrible is that?
你知道吗？
And you know what?
那天我做的所有事情，其实都可以等一等。
Everything that I did that day, I could have waited.
没有一件是紧急的。
None of it was urgent.
而且大部分事情其实也没那么重要。
Most of it was also pretty unimportant.
其实全都是。
All of it was.
但我就是觉得——我觉得我得先做完这些事，才能放松下来，才不会感到内疚。
But I just felt- I felt like I needed to do it so that I could relax and not feel guilty.
如果我直接放松，就会觉得自己很懒，根本没法享受。
And if I just relaxed I would have felt lazy and I wouldn't have been able to enjoy myself.
所以总结一下这种感觉，我觉得其实就是，我的野心向我承诺了理想中的生活，而我的现实生活却在悄悄溜走。
So to kind of summarise this feeling, I think it's really that my ambition promises me my dream life whilst my real life kind of passes me by.
这就是我对它不满的原因。
And that is why I have a problem with it.
这就是野心的诅咒。
And this is the curse of ambition.
它变成了你身份中如此核心的一部分——我的身份，我们的身份——以至于你不得不一直去践行它、为它服务，即使它已经不再为你服务了，因为你觉得它就像你的朋友。
It becomes such a core part of your identity, my identity, our identity, that you have to keep living it out and serving it even when it no longer serves you because it feels like it is your friend.
我读了一篇很棒的文章，来自Substack上的Starburned，标题是《没有野心，我是谁？》。
And I read this really great article from The Substack is Starburned and it's titled, Who Am I Without My Ambition?
作者说了一句话，我觉得特别有共鸣，她说野心非常尖锐，让你相信没有它你就活不下去。
And the author, she says something which I think really resonates which is that ambition is very spiky and it convinces you that you cannot live without it.
这样一来，它就像一段有毒的关系。
And in that way, it's like a toxic relationship.
确实如此。
It really is.
好的时候特别好，但好景不长。
It's amazing when it's really good, but the good doesn't last very long.
其余时间都糟糕透了。
And then it's awful the rest of the time.
但我们却坚信自己需要它。
But we're convinced that we need it.
当然，我不是想把两者相提并论，我觉得这是一个重要的比喻，让你重新理解自己和野心的关系，而不是仅仅把它看作一件好事。
And obviously, I'm not trying to compare the two, I think that it's it's an important metaphor to understand your relationship with ambition differently, rather than just as a good thing.
所以，如果你也和我一样，开始质疑自己除了野心之外还有什么，
So if you've reached a similar point to me of like questioning, who am I beyond my ambition?
除了一个能努力工作的人之外，我又是谁？
Who am I beyond somebody that's able to work hard?
我们该怎么面对这个问题？
What do we do with this?
当野心几乎是我们所知道的一切时，我们该如何与它建立更健康的关系？
How do we form a healthier relationship with it when it's kind of all we've ever known?
我觉得我们最需要为自己做的一件事，就是认识到自己的价值和所能提供的，远不止我们的生产力和工作态度。
I think the most critical thing that we can do for ourselves is to see who we are and how much we have to offer as more than just our productivity and our work ethic.
我们现在这样评价自己，就像在评价一台机器一样。
We are kind of valuing ourselves as we would a machine.
但我们是一个人。
But we are a person.
我们是活生生的、有呼吸的生命，能带来的价值远不止输入和输出那么简单。
We are a living, breathing creature who brings so much more value than just input and output.
如果你不承认这一点，你就无法与抱负建立健康的关系。
And you cannot have a healthy relationship with ambition if you do not acknowledge that.
我觉得这里一个非常有用的概念叫做自我复杂性。
One of the concepts I find really useful here is called self complexity.
这个概念是我从杜克大学的研究员帕特里夏·林维尔那里学到的。
This is a concept I learned from the researcher, Patricia Linville, from Duke University.
她基本上是在说，我们必须能够认识到构成自我意识的各个不同方面。
And she basically describes how we have to be able to acknowledge the different dimensions that make up our sense of self.
如果你不把这些不同的版本都视为同等重要、同样值得尊重，你就不会快乐。
And you cannot be happy if you don't hold all those versions as equally important and equally deserving of respect.
所以你可能是一名律师，可能是一个全优学生，可能是一名设计师或企业主，但你同时也是朋友、兄弟姐妹和伴侣。
So you might be a lawyer, you might be a straight a student, you might be a designer or a business owner, but you are also a friend and a sibling and a partner.
而且你还是一个幽默、好奇、有创造力、爱冒险的人。
And you are also somebody who is funny and curious and creative and adventurous.
你也很擅长记住别人的生日，你对某部电影特别着迷，你是一个让别人感到非常非常自在的人，仅仅因为这些部分的生产价值较低，并不意味着它们毫无意义。
And you're really good at remembering birthdays and you're obsessed with a particular movie and you are somebody who makes others feel very, very comfortable, just because those parts of you have less productive value, like that doesn't mean that they are meaningless.
这些才是生活的全部意义。
Like, are kind of the whole point.
那位研究者的自我复杂性研究也表明，能够尊重自己那些不一定有传统价值、但让你感觉像自己的部分，对心理健康是有好处的。
And research on self complexity by that same researcher really shows that there are psychological benefits to being able to respect the parts of you that may not necessarily be traditionally useful, but make you feel like yourself.
因为当生活的某个方面受到打击——而且肯定会有的——它不一定非要威胁到我们整个自我认同。
Because when one area of your life takes a hit, and it will, it doesn't necessarily have to threaten our entire sense of who we are.
所以，如果你的全部身份就是“我是一个成功的人”、“我是一个有抱负的人”，那么职业上的失败就不仅仅是职业失败，而是彻头彻尾的身份危机。
So if your whole identity is I am somebody who is successful, I am somebody who is ambitious, a professional failure is not just a professional failure, it is a full blown identity crisis.
因为你的身份没有其他东西可以依托。
Because there is nothing else to rest your identity on.
但如果你既成功，又是个好朋友，善良、慷慨，而且小动物都喜欢你，那么遇到职业问题时，你就能从这个角色中抽身出来。
But if you are successful but also a good friend and kind and generous and animals love you, like a professional issue, like you can step out of that role.
所以我觉得，如果你想了解没有抱负的自己是什么样，就把这些列出来。
So I think if you wanna know who you are without your ambition, list it out.
比如，嗨，我叫杰玛，我有抱负，我工作努力。
You know, hi, my name is Jemma and I'm ambitious and I am a hard worker.
但关于我，还有更有趣的事情，就是我举办很棒的晚宴，而且我今年已经读了20本书，我还总是给远方的闺蜜打电话。
But here is like something more interesting about me, which is that I host really great dinner parties and I am I've read 20 books this year and I always call my long distance best friends.
我很擅长这些。
I'm very good at that.
就算没人注意到，我依然会对心理学感兴趣，依然会对研究感兴趣，依然会对这个世界感兴趣，而且我觉得我依然会是个好人。
And if no one noticed, I would still be interested in psychology, and I'd still be interested in research, and I would still be interested in the world, and I think I would still be a good person.
这些都是我在没有野心的情况下依然拥有的东西。
And those are all things that I am without my ambition.
其次，我还认为，我们不应该再把野心看作是一种如果不马上用完就会过期或变质的东西。
I also believe, secondly to this, that we have to stop thinking about ambition as this thing that will expire or go off if we don't use all of it right now.
我经常会有这种想法。
That is a frame of mind that I find myself in all the time.
如果我不保持我的野心，不经常去拓展和考验它，我就会忘记怎么去有野心。
If I don't keep up with my ambition and if I don't constantly stretch it and test it, like I'm gonna forget how to be ambitious.
所以，当我最终遇到一件我真正想为之努力的事情时，我可能就没法做到了。
And so when I finally eventually stumble on something I really wanna be ambitious about, I'm not gonna be able to do it.
我就没法把它做成了。
I won't be able to make it work.
你知道吗，万一我突然变懒了怎么办？
You know, what if I suddenly become lazy?
这有可能吗？
Is that a possibility?
这就是放弃野心时最大的恐惧。
That's like the big fear with giving up our ambition.
这其实是一个非常深的认知误区，也是让我们对很多事物上瘾或依赖的同一个误区，因为它把野心当成了一种物质资源，而不是你内在的一部分。
This is such a deep cognitive fallacy and it's the same fallacy that keeps us hooked or dependent on so many things because it treats ambition as this physical resource rather than as this intrinsic part of who you are.
你知道，从我们之前讲过的研究来看，野心是我们性格的一部分。
You know, as we know from the literature that we've already covered, ambition is part of our personality.
我们很多时候天生就带着它，带着一定程度的野心。
We are often very much born with it, with a with a percentage of it.
它就是你气质里与生俱来的东西。
It's just it's in built to your temperament.
我觉得这种内在特质既是诅咒，也是解决办法的一部分。
And the intrinsic nature here is I think both the curse and and part of the the solution.
因为如果某样东西是你的一部分，你就不可能完全把它忘掉，就像你不可能忘掉自己的善良、敏感或正义感一样。
Because you cannot unlearn something completely that is part of who you are, the same way that you cannot unlearn other parts of who you are, like your kindness or your sensitivity or your sense of justice.
这些东西不会变质。
These things don't go bad.
它们不会因为不用就过期。
They don't expire from lack of use.
它们只是暂时沉在表面之下，等你需要的时候，随时可以召唤出来。
They just can and will sit below the surface for a little while until you need them, and then you can call on them.
而且我们还忽略了一点，当我们真的需要它们去做非常重要的事情时，我们真的很想调动自己的野心，把它当作隐藏的储备资源。到那时，我们可能会有更多的动力，更重要的是，有更多的时间去真正执行我们的愿景，因为我们没有被那些为了满足和维持野心而不得不做的各种事情和活动所束缚。
And what we're also forgetting is that when we we do need them for something really really important, we do really wanna call on our ambition as this like hidden well of reserves we have, we'll probably have more motivation, and most importantly more time to actually execute our vision because we're not kind of tied up in having all these other things and activities that our ambition required us to do in order to feed it and keep it satiated.
你看，担心自己会忘记野心，基本上就是在灾难化。
You know, this idea that we may forget our ambition is basically just catastrophising.
这是一种非黑即白的思维，在我们二十多岁的时候非常普遍，也非常严重。
It's all or nothing thinking that is very very relevant and severe in our twenties.
二十几岁的时候，我第一个承认，我还不知道自己是谁。
In our twenties, I'll be the first to admit, like, don't know who I am yet.
我相信你也不太清楚自己是谁。
I'm sure you don't really know who you are.
所以我们想象中只有两种非常极端的自己。
And so we imagine that there are really only some very binary versions of us.
只有两种可能的自己。
There's only two possible versions of ourselves.
要么我是一个永不满足、不断取得成就的人，要么我是一个完全放弃的懒人。
Either I am the relentlessly ambitious person who is constantly achieving, or I am the lazy person who has completely given up.
没有中间地带。
Like, there is no middle ground.
这就是我们大脑告诉我们的。
That's what our brain tells us.
这太疯狂了。
And that's crazy.
没有人只是单一的一面。
No one is ever just one thing.
我们远比那复杂得多。
We are so much more nuanced than that.
而且我觉得就像大自然一样，我们也有自己的季节。
And I think just like nature, we have our seasons.
我们有努力工作的季节，开花结果，收获很多。
We have our seasons where we work really hard and we blossom and we have a lot of harvest or output.
同样，你也需要生活中的冬天，需要休息和蛰伏的季节，这样才能迎来繁荣的季节。
You equally require the winters of life and you require seasons of rest and hibernation that allow for the prosperous seasons.
一切都需要在这种平衡中发生，而一味地追求野心，会打乱存在的自然平衡。
Everything has to occur in this balance and by trying to push ambition constantly, you disrupt the natural balance of being.
我认为解决野心问题的最终方案，关键还是要更清楚自己最初想要什么，以及现在追求那个目标会放弃什么。
I think the final solution for the ambition problem, crucially, is also just to be more clear about why you want something to begin with, and what you would be giving up by pursuing that thing right now.
本质上，就是要审视自己是在喂养野心这头野兽，因为它饿了，还是在真正滋养自己和自己的灵魂。
Essentially, it's about interrogating if you are feeding the ambition beast because the ambition beast is hungry, or you are actually feeding yourself and your soul.
你可以问自己一些具体的问题。
Specific questions to ask yourself.
如果身边没有其他人，你还会想要这个东西吗？
Would you still want this thing if no one else was around?
得到这个东西真的会让你开心吗？
Is getting this thing actually going to make you happy?
你对实现这个目标的渴望，是不是在替代某种更根本的需求？
Is the desire to achieve this sitting in for some other fundamental need?
比如觉得自己有价值，或者觉得自己很重要的需求。
Like the need to feel like you matter, or the need to feel like you're important.
再回到这个问题，这真的会让我开心吗？
Again, coming back to this thing, is this actually gonna make me happy?
你的时间有限。
You only have so much time.
这也是放弃野心时让人害怕的一部分。
That's part of the fear around giving up ambition.
但你需要决定，是把这份雄心花在那些小小的虚荣项目或琐碎的事情上，还是把它存起来。
But you need to decide whether you're going to spend that ambition on small vanity projects or little things, or you're to save it.
把它积攒起来，留到某个真正特别特别特别重要的事情上，把所有的雄心都用在那上面。
You're going to store it up for something really really really special to use all your ambition on.
那样会感觉非常有意义，而不只是为了把那些心魔赶走。
It's going to feel really purposeful rather than just something to kind of keep the demons away.
我觉得作为有雄心的人，我们需要更擅长思考机会成本。
I think as ambitious people, we need to become much better at thinking about opportunity cost.
对生活的一种版本说“是”，不可避免地就是对另一种版本说“不”。
Every kind of yes to one version of your life is inevitably a no to another.
所以，如果你决定，比如，你想打造世界上或你行业里最大的公司，想成为你领域或你大学里最顶尖的研究员，并且愿意在未来十年每个周末都工作，也许这对你来说真的值得，你找到了自己真正在乎的东西。
So if you decide I don't know, if you decide you want to build the biggest company in the world or in your industry, and you want to become the best researcher in your field or at your university, and you want to work every weekend for the next ten years, maybe that is genuinely worth it to you and you have found what you really care about.
但至少你应该清楚自己为此交换了什么，那可能是更有意义、更慢节奏的经历，而这些经历的价值要高得多。
But you should at least acknowledge what you are exchanging for it, which is perhaps more meaningful, slower experiences that are worth a lot more.
雄心有个特点，就是让它的回报变得极其显眼，而让它的代价变得极其隐蔽。
Ambition has this tendency to make its rewards extremely visible and its costs extremely invisible.
很容易就会觉得，这个人成功是因为他赚了很多钱，拿了奖，还有那么多粉丝。
It's very easy to be like, this person is successful because they make all this money and they have this award and they have this number of followers.
但很难看到他们错过的那个下午，没能和朋友一起度过。
It is much harder to point to the afternoon that they missed with their friends that did not happen.
也很难看到他们心理健康的代价，总是想着：我做得够不够？
It's much harder to point to the cost to their mental health of constantly thinking, am I doing enough?
我有没有发挥出自己的潜力？
Am I reaching my potential?
我应该做得更多。
I should be doing more.
我总能做得更多。
I could always be doing more.
我是不是个失败者？
Am I a failure?
我们看不到这些代价，而且永远不满足于自己拥有的东西，这种感觉一点都不好。
Like, we don't see that cost and it's not a nice feeling at all to never be happy with what you have.
而且我觉得，无止境的野心带来的现实就是，有时候会让人感到不满足。
And I think it's a reality that endless ambition creates, which is dissatisfaction at times.
你知道，我觉得值得去问问自己，为什么我非得成为最好的那个？
You know, and I think it's worth questioning why do I even need to be the best?
为什么我需要这些成就或东西，如果它们带给我的只是更深的“我还不够努力”的感觉，以及一个不断被抬高的标准。
Why do I even need these accomplishments or things if the only thing it gets me is again a deeper sense that I'm not doing enough, and just a bar that keeps being raised.
如果我从不停下来审视这一点，那幸福或满足感还有可能吗？
And if I never stop to examine that, is happiness or satisfaction ever even on the on the cards?
我想我真的不知道。
I guess I don't really know.
我真的不知道。
I don't really know.
我只知道，我内心有一部分在努力，希望能更好地处理我的野心。
I just know that part of That there is a part of me that is hopefully trying to work on being better with my ambition.
我绝对不想到了三十岁或四十岁还在这样想。
And I definitely don't want to be 30 or 40 and still thinking this way.
我不想等到三四十岁，每次度假还得带着笔记本电脑，就为了能挣到休息时间。
And I don't want to be 30 or 40 and still bringing my laptop on every holiday so that I can earn my time off.
我也不想等到三四十岁，还觉得如果不在某个时间内达成某个目标，一切就都完了。
And I don't want to be 30 or 40 and feeling like if I don't achieve x in this amount of time, it is all over.
我不知道。
I don't know.
也许这只能靠时间来慢慢解决。
Maybe that's just something that time kind of helps with.
但这是我正在纠结的问题，我也知道你们很多人也有同样的困扰。
But it's something I'm struggling with and something that I know a lot of you are.
希望我们能通过共鸣，一起拆解野心给我们灌输的那些叙事和迷思，这对大家会有帮助，因为对我来说确实很有用。
And hopefully, just being able to relate to this and us being able to tear apart the narrative and the myths that ambition sells us is useful and helpful because it's definitely been helpful to me.
所以，今天我想说的就这些。
So I think that's all I have for today.
我觉得说完这些，我感觉好多了。
I think that's I feel better.
这就是我所有的想法，总结起来，打包好，在这期简短的小节目里送给你。
That's all my thoughts summarised and wrapped up and delivered to you in this neat tiny episode.
所以我希望你能在某种程度上对这期节目产生共鸣。
So I hope that you can relate to this episode in some way.
它能让你感觉好一些。
It's made you feel better.
如果你能听到这里，谢谢你收听。
If you have, you know, made it this far, thank you for listening.
如果你在Spotify上收听，欢迎在下面留下评论。
Feel free to leave a little comment down below if you're listening on Spotify.
请留下五星好评，或者如果你觉得这期节目可能对朋友也有帮助，就分享给他们——各位曾经的优等生、长女、全A学生。
Make sure that you leave a five star review or share this episode with a friend if you think that it might help them as well, fellow former high achievers, eldest daughters, straight a students.
我觉得我们都能在这个话题上团结起来。
I feel like we can all unite around this topic.
还有很多内容。
There's heaps more.
就像我说的，我真的很喜欢Substack，而且这其实是我现在更想专注于单纯享受的事情。
As I said, I'm really enjoying Substack and it's actually the thing I'm trying to focus on just enjoying for the sake of it more.
所以如果你想加入我，描述里会有链接，还有我们的Instagram，你可以在Netflix上观看这期节目和其他很多类似的节目。
So if you wanna join me over there, there'll be a link in the description alongside our Instagram where you can watch this episode and many others just like it on Netflix.
下面总是会有一些好东西。
There's just always there's always some goodies down there.
但再次感谢你的收听。
But again, thank you for listening.
下次再见，注意安全，善待他人，也对自己温柔一点。
Until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself.
我们很快就会再聊的。
We will talk very, very soon.
我是Melissa Jeltsin，《她怎么了》播客的主持人。
I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of the What Happened To Her podcast.
我们这一季以Sandra Burchmore的故事开场，这个案子被警方定性为暴风雪中的自杀。
We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Burchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snow snowstorm.
她的家人从来不相信，而且他们怀疑的那个人穿着制服。
Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.
你永远不知道那个魔鬼是谁，因为他穿着
You never know who that devil is because he's wearing
伪装。
a disguise.
有时候是警服。
Sometimes it's a police uniform.
你可以通过iHeartPodcasts plus订阅，在Apple Podcasts上独家收听所有剧集，完全无广告，仅限iHeartTrueCrime plus订阅用户。
And you can get access to all episodes, a 100% ad free, with an iHeartPodcasts plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeartTrueCrime plus subscribers.
所以别等了。
So don't wait.
去Apple Podcasts，搜索iHeartTrueCrime plus，今天就订阅吧。
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeartTrueCrime plus and subscribe today.
丽莎，跟他们说说我们的新节目。
Lisa, tell them about our new show.
我们有一个新的播客。
We have a new podcast.
名字叫《别骗我》。
It's called Don't Lie to Me.
我是莱克西·伊瓦努。
I'm Lexi Iwanu.
我们是最好的朋友，相差二十二岁，但心贴得很近。
We're two best friends, twenty two years apart, but so close at heart.
我是丽莎·迪朱利奥，年纪大的那个，这意味着我们的参考点完全不同，偶尔意见也不一致。
And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions.
到了这个年纪，
And at this point
五十多岁的我，什么都经历过了。
in my fifties, I've lived it all.
现在三十多岁的我，作为New Shoes的创始人，品味好就是我的事业。
Now in my thirties, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business.
请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts 或任何你收听播客的平台上收听。
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨。
Hi.
我是凯莉·布雷克曼。
This is Kylie Brakeman.
安吉拉·杰里塔娜。
Angela Gerritana.
杰里米·科尔汉。
Jeremy Kolhane.
帕特里克·麦克唐纳。
Patrick McDonald.
我们是《艺术家聊艺术家聊艺术家聊艺术家》播客的主持人。
And we're the hosts of the artists on artists on artists on artist podcast.
这是一档即兴角色喜剧播客，每周都有新的艺术家小组讨论他们的技艺。
The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.
来和我们一起参加欧洲歌唱大赛选手的座谈吧。
Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants.
有时候我们也会搞点万圣节活动。
And we do a little Halloween sometimes.
教皇会打扮吗？
Does the pope dress up?
他在万圣节那天会眨眨眼。
He he winks on Halloween.
他会凑到麦克风跟前。
He gets right up next to the microphone.
你会听到，我跟你说，
You get a I hear you
几乎能听到睫毛互相碰撞的声音。
can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.
你从没见过意大利这么安静，就像教皇在万圣节站起来眨眼的时候那样。
You never seen Italy so quiet as when the pope gets up to wink on Halloween.
每周四，来听艺术家们、艺术家们、艺术家们、艺术家们的节目，
Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists every Thursday on
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts，或者任何你收听播客的地方。
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是莱西·莫斯利，作家、演员、单口喜剧演员、创作者，也是《骗子女神》播客的主持人，这是一档关于抢劫的真实犯罪喜剧播客，
I'm Lacey Moseley, author, actor, stand up comedian, creator, and host of scam goddess podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery,
欺诈，以及那些干这些事的人。
fraud, and those who practice it.
每周，我都会请来一位很棒的嘉宾。
Each week, I bring on an amazing guest.
哦，我骗了他们。
Oh, I scammed them.
什么？
What?
我可以跟你聊上一个小时。
I could talk to you for an hour.
你真是个天生的话痨。
You're a generational yapper
跟我一样。
like me.
所以我才
That's why
把聊天变成了工作。
I had to make yapping a job.
现在你可以在YouTube上看我的完整节目了。
And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube.
快去iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或者你常用的播客平台收听《Scam Goddess》吧。
Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
所以，大概到11岁左右，
So, like, by age 11 or so, at
至少70%的孩子都有手机了。
least 70% have a phone.
我是乔伊医生，这里是《黑人女孩的心理治疗》。
I'm doctor Joy, and this is Therapy for Black Girls.
在我们的《度过初中》系列中，我们探讨了孩子大脑里发生了什么、群聊和友谊的情况，以及你可以怎么做。
We spent our surviving middle school run getting into what's happening inside your kid's brain, the group chat, and their friendships, and what you can do about it.
你的孩子不是故意这么做的。
Your child is not doing this on purpose.
这就是我们从专门研究这些的心理学家和精神科医生那里得到的观点。
That's the kind of perspective we've been pulling from the psychologists and psychiatrists who study this for a living.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的地方，收听《黑人女孩的心理治疗》。
Listen to therapy for black girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
这是iHeart播客，保证真人制作。
This is an iHeartPodcast, Guaranteed Human.
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