68. “理想工作”的神话

这是一档iHeart播客节目，《保证是人类》。

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

我是鲍文·杨。

I'm Bowen Yang.

我是马特·罗杰斯。

And I'm Matt Rogers.

在本季《两个家伙，五枚戒指》播客中，为迎接2026年米兰-科尔蒂纳冬奥会，我们一直在

During this season of the two guys, five rings podcast in the lead up to the Milan Cortina twenty twenty six Winter Olympic Games, we've been

和我们的一些朋友一起。

joined by some of our friends.

你好，Vogue。

Hi, Vogue.

你好，Matt。

Hi, Matt.

嘿，Elmo。

Hey, Elmo.

嘿，梅迪·鲍文。

Hey, Maddie Bowen.

嗨，曲奇。

Hi, Cookie.

嗨。

Hi.

现在冬季奥运会正在进行，我们正在意大利

Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy

用心声为你带来真实体验。

to give you experience from our hearts to your ears.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《两个家伙，五枚戒指》。

Listen to two guys five rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

在过去的几年里，我们是不是了解到，折叠椅是黑人因为阿拉巴马州发生的事而发明的？

Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama?

蒙哥马利胸衣。

Montgomery bra.

在这个黑人历史月，播客《选择性无知》与曼迪·B 一起，用喜剧、清晰的视角和撼动现状的对话，来解读黑人历史与文化。

This black history month, the podcast selective ignorance with Mandy b unpacks black history and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo.

纽约的《皇冠法案》于2019年7月签署，这是一项旨在禁止基于与种族相关的发型进行歧视的法案。

The Crown Act in New York was signed in July 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race.

想收听此内容及更多节目，请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts 或任何你获取播客的地方，收听来自 Black Effect 播客网络的《选择性无知》与曼迪·B。

To hear this and more, listen to selective ignorance with Mandy b from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你可以整天刷新闻头条，却依然感到空虚。

You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty.

我是本·希金斯。

I'm Ben Higgins.

如果你能听到我的声音，这里就是文化与灵魂交汇的地方。

And if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul.

关于身份、失落、目标、和平、信仰以及其间一切的真诚对话。

Honest conversations about identity, loss, purpose, peace, faith, and everything in between.

名人、思想家、普通人，有些人已有答案，大多数人仍在探索中。

Celebrities, thinkers, everyday people, some have answers, most are still figuring it out.

如果你曾觉得事情背后一定还有更多故事，那么这个节目就是为你准备的。

And if you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this is for you.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听《If You Can Hear Me》。

Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

深夜里，萨斯琪在迷糊中醒了过来。

In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.

她的

Her

丈夫迈克正在用笔记本电脑。

husband Mike was on his laptop.

屏幕上显示的内容将改变

What was on his screen would change

萨斯琪的一生永远。

Saskia's Saskia life forever.

我说我需要你

I said I need you to

告诉我你到底在做什么。

tell me exactly what you're doing.

那一刻，面具立刻脱落了。

And immediately, the mask came off.

你本该感到安全的。

You're supposed to be safe.

那是你的家。

That's your home.

那是你的丈夫。

That's your husband.

收听《背叛》第五季，可在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听。

Listen to betrayal season five on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，欢迎回到《二十多岁的心理学》，这档播客我们将探讨二十多岁人生中一些重大的变化与转折，以及它们对我们的心理意味着什么。

Hello and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties, and what they mean for our psychology.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

欢迎回到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

欢迎回到播客。

Welcome back to the podcast.

新听众，老听众，非常高兴你们能在这里。

New listeners, old listeners, so great to have you here.

非常高兴你们能回来收听新一期节目。

So great to have you back for another episode of the show.

我对我们今天要讨论的话题感到非常兴奋。

I'm so excited about what we're talking about today.

我认为我们要讨论的内容与我们二十多岁的生活息息相关。

And I think we're talking about something that is so relevant to our twenties.

我很惊讶自己之前没有早点做这期节目。

I'm surprised I haven't done it sooner.

那就是关于理想工作这个概念是否真实存在，或者它是否已经过时了。

And that is whether the idea of the dream job is real, or whether it's outdated.

并且深入探讨一些背后的心理学，比如职业焦虑、文化压力要求我们在人生早期就做出职业决定，同时我们又感到被困住。

And kind of going into some of that psychology behind things like career anxiety and the cultural pressure to make our professional decisions so early on in our lives while we feel stuck.

所有这些都伴随着试图弄清楚我们究竟想用人生做什么。

And all that comes with trying to figure out exactly what we want to do with our lives.

我认为我们二十多岁的一个巨大组成部分就是被赋予这项任务——弄清楚我们想用人生做什么。

I think a huge component of our twenties is this task that we're given to figure out what we wanna do with our lives.

这是一个相当常见的问题，对吧？从相当年轻的时候——不仅仅是二十多岁——就被亲戚、老师、在求职面试中，几乎从各个方向抛向我们。

It's a fairly common question, right, that's lobbied at us from a fairly young age, not just our twenties, from relatives, from teachers, in job interviews, almost every direction.

这就是那个问题：你想做什么？

And that's that question of what do you want to do?

你的梦想工作是什么？

What is your dream job?

这是一个相当庞大且令人恐惧的问题。

It's a fairly large and terrifying question.

而且在很多方面，我认为它会让我们感到相当困顿，原因有很多。

And in many ways, I think it can leave us feeling fairly stuck for a number of reasons.

你知道，世界是如此广阔。

You know, the world is so large.

有如此多的机会和可能性，但也有许多障碍和限制，许多因素会影响我们想要从事的职业以及我们能获得的机会。

There are so many opportunities and possibilities, but there are also so many barriers and limitations, so many factors that are going to contribute to what career we want to have and also what is available to us.

有时候，我认为当我们达到理想的位置时，会发现它并不像我们想象的那样完美，或者自从设定这个目标以来，我们的愿望已经发生了变化。

And sometimes I think we get to our dream position and we realize that it is not all that we want, or that since setting that goal, our desires have changed.

所以今天我想讨论的是，理想的工作，我们的理想工作，是否真的存在。

So what I want to discuss today is whether the dream job, our dream job, really exists.

是否只有一种理想的工作。

Whether there is only one dream job.

并且剖析一下我们常常面临的压力——必须在人生早期就弄清楚一切。

And just dissect some of that pressure we often face to have it figured out so early on in our lives.

如果

If

你

you

你可能在选择职业道路、专业，或者试图弄清楚什么才能真正让你在职业上感到快乐时，感到很大的焦虑，我向你保证，你并不孤单。

have been feeling perhaps a lot of anxiety around choosing your career pathway or your degree or trying to figure out what is actually going to make you happy career wise, I promise that you're not alone.

即使在我目前的工作中，我也 definitely 感受到过这种情绪，不断问自己：这真的是我想要的吗？

I've definitely felt this way even recently in my current job, and asking myself those questions of, is this really what I want?

这让我快乐吗？

Does this make me happy?

与此同时，过去几个月我经常和朋友们讨论他们作为同龄人的观点与挣扎。

And simultaneous to that, I've been having this discussion quite a lot with my friends the past few months about their perspectives and their struggles as fellow 20 people.

在所有这些杂音和对话中，我不禁想到，一定有某种研究或心理学解释能说明这个现象。

And throughout all of that noise and those conversations, I couldn't help but think there has to be some research, some psychological explanation behind this concept.

确实存在这样的解释。

And there definitely was.

也许你听这段话时，对自己想做什么已经有了比较清晰的想法，也规划好了通往目标的路径。

So perhaps you're listening to this with a fairly clear idea of what you wanna do, a fairly mapped out path to your destination.

我认为像外科医生或律师这样的工作，是相当传统的职业路径，有明确的入门条件、学位要求和经验标准。

I think jobs like, you know, being a surgeon or a lawyer, they're fairly traditional career pathways, and they have clear entry points, clear degree and experience requirements.

这些路径可能需要一些时间，但核心理念是，只要你做对了每一件事，遵循正确的道路，五年后你就能到达你想要的位置。

And they might take some time, but the idea is that if you do everything right, if you follow the correct path, you know, in five years' time, you'll be where you wanna be.

这听起来很简单。

And that sounds straightforward.

对吧？

Right?

但很多时候，我们被迫在很年轻的时候就做出决定，甚至在高中刚开始时，就要确定自己在16、17、18岁时想做什么。

But so often, we're forced to decide fairly young, even at the beginning of of high school, what we wanna do when we're, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old.

而我们那时为自己设定的梦想，终究会改变。

And those dreams that we set for ourselves then, they are they're going to change.

当你抵达那个目的地，或终于得到那份梦想中的工作，却发现它毫无成就感时，会发生什么？

And what happens when you arrive at that destination or you retrieve that dream job, and you find it really unfulfilling.

这是一个巨大的困境。

That's a massive dilemma.

我的朋友埃琳，也是节目的常客，前几天也对我说了一些话，非常有启发性，让我深有感触。

And my friend Erin, a good friend of the show, she also said something to me the other day that was actually really enlightening and kind of struck me as really poignant.

那如果你根本连个理想的工作都没有呢？

And that's what if you just don't even have a dream job?

如果你想象不出自己理想的职业，或者这根本对你没有吸引力呢？

What if you can't imagine your ideal career or that just doesn't appeal to you?

你知道，工作只是用来付账单、让你能在工作之外追求热情的一种手段。

You know, a job is just something that you have to pay your bills and allow you to live out your passions elsewhere away from the workplace.

为什么对‘你想要做什么’这个问题，这样的回答就不被接受呢？

Like, why is that not an acceptable answer to that question of what do you want to do?

我觉得，说我的职业和职业生涯其实并不是我生活的中心，这完全没问题。

I think it should be fine to say, you know, well my career and my professional life, it isn't actually the center of my universe.

对我来说，工作就是一份工作。

A job, it's just a job to me.

它不需要承载更多意义。

It doesn't need to mean more than that.

关于‘理想工作’这个概念，还有很多值得探讨的地方，而且我们会发现，相关的研究和文献比我想象的要多得多。

And there's so much just, you know, to discuss around this concept of the dream job, and as we'll uncover a lot more research and literature than I thought.

因为无论你是否有理想的工作，无论你是否知道自己想在人生中做什么，事实是工作和我们的职业是我们生活的基本组成部分，而不仅仅是在二十多岁时如此。

Because regardless of whether you have a dream job, whether you know what you want to do with your life or not, the truth is that work and our careers are a fundamental part of our lives, not just our twenties.

我们如何赚钱，将占据我们生命中比任何其他活动都多的时光，除了睡觉。

How we make money, it's going to consume more hours of our lives than any other activity besides, you know, sleeping.

因此，理解我们在职业决策中所涉及的动态至关重要。

So understanding the dynamic around the decisions we make when it comes to our careers is super important.

有太多内容需要涵盖。

There's so much to cover.

我知道我每次都说这句话，但关于这个话题，有大量引人入胜的研究和心理学发现。

I know I say that every time, but there is so much fascinating research and psychology around this topic.

确实存在一个完整的心理学领域，叫做组织心理学，专门研究我们与工作和职业的关系。

There's literally an entire field of psychology called organizational psychology that is dedicated to our relationship with work and our jobs.

所以做好准备，因为今天我们将深入剖析理想工作的心理学。

So buckle in, because today we're going to break down the psychology of the dream job.

这真的是事实吗？

Is it fact?

还是虚构的？

Is it fiction?

所有这些美好的事物。

All of those good things.

我想首先，当谈到理想工作以及我们附加其上的所有幻想、梦想和希望时，我们都有一些概念或想法。

I think to begin, we all have some concept or idea of what I mean when I talk about the dream job and all the fantasy and and the dreams and the hopes that we attach to it.

当我们想到理想工作时，我们想到的是那种我们感觉自己或许生来就该做的事。

When we think about the dream job, we think about the thing that we feel we were perhaps born to do.

那份能点燃我们灵魂的东西，那份我们认为能成就自我、并在某些方面让我们感到非常非常快乐的工作。

The thing that lights our soul, the job we think will complete us and in some ways make us really, really happy.

不可否认，确实有些人拥有他们的梦想工作，已经发现了自己的梦想工作。

And there is no denying that there are some people who have their dream job, who have discovered their dream job.

也许他们是偶然发现的，你知道，就是那种他们觉得自己生来就该做的事，无法想象去做其他任何事情。

Maybe they have stumbled upon it, you know, the thing that they feel they on this planet to do, and they can't imagine doing anything else.

我也认为，你知道，在更广泛的流行文化领域里，有些人我们也无法想象他们会做其他事情。

I also think, you know, there are people in the broader pop culture sphere who we can't imagine doing anything else.

比如泰勒·斯威夫特或者奥普拉。

You know, like Taylor Swift or Oprah.

你能想象他们当咖啡师或园丁吗？

Like, can you imagine them being a barista or a gardener?

不能。

No.

我认为有些人就是有天职，他们能够坚持下去，但我相信即使这些人也时常会有疑虑。

There's just some people, I think, who have a calling and they're able to follow it through, but I'm sure even these people at time have doubts.

但如果你就是这样的人，已经破解了系统，实现了你的梦想工作，我觉得这太了不起了。

But if that is you and you've hacked the system and you have achieved your dream job, I think that's incredible.

我为你感到骄傲，我相信你做得非常出色。

And I'm so proud of you and I'm sure you're doing amazing.

但你绝对是幸运儿之一。

But you're definitely one of the lucky ones.

也许你一直觉得自己有清晰的方向，从来就知道自己的梦想工作是什么。

And maybe you were someone who always thought they had a clear idea, and you always knew what your dream job was.

而现在你在听这个播客，是因为你意识到也许你之前想错了。

And now you're listening to this podcast because you realize that maybe you were mistaken.

事情没那么简单，你感觉有点卡住了。

It's not as easy as that, and you're feeling a little bit stuck.

我在思考这个概念并撰写这期节目时，有一个疑问：这个想法到底是从哪儿来的？

One question I had when I was thinking about this concept and writing this episode is where did this idea even come from?

比如，这种关于梦想工作的想法看起来非常奇怪。

Like, this idea of a dream job seems so bizarre.

我有了一些想法，并做了进一步的挖掘，想弄清楚这个概念的来源。

And I had a few ideas and did some further digging just to kind of understand where this idea came from.

这个词的词源很难追溯，但似乎它在二十世纪开始流行，尤其是随着教育水平提高和收入增长，人们不再甘心从事父母辈的工作。

And it was pretty hard to find the etymology of the term, but it appears that it became popular in the twentieth century, especially as education levels begin to rise and incomes expanded, people were no longer resigned to work the jobs that their fathers and their mothers had worked.

我认为二战之后，许多西方国家经历了财富的大幅增长。

And after World War two, I think many Western countries saw what was a massive rise in wealth.

随之而来的是，人们有机会选择自己喜欢的工作，而不仅仅是为了避免挨饿。

And with that, an opportunity to be able to pick a job that you enjoyed rather than one that, you know, just prevented you from from starving.

于是，梦想工作的概念便诞生了。

And the idea of the dream job was born.

我认为，这种信念已经逐渐扩展。

That belief, I think, has slowly expanded.

这个想法变得普遍得多，尤其是随着我们看到，你知道，近几十年来随着互联网的发明和技术的扩展，全新的行业不断涌现。

And the idea has become a lot more common, especially as we've seen, you know, entirely new industries emerge in recent decades with the invention of the Internet and the expansions in technology.

基本上，这是一种从将工作视为琐事、必需品，转向我们有望享受并为之奋斗的转变。

Basically, was a shift from work being a chore, a necessity, to something that we can hopefully enjoy and strive towards.

我想我们都知道这个词的存在，也许对你来说它毫无意义。

I think we all know the term exists, and maybe for you it means nothing.

正如他们所说，你不是那种梦想着劳动的人。

You're not someone who dreams of labor, as they say.

但毫无疑问，对我们许多人来说，仍然有一种挥之不去的感觉或需求，认为必须绝对热爱自己所做的事情才能快乐。

But undoubtedly, for many of us, there is still a lingering feeling or need to absolutely adore what we do to be happy.

那么，这种压力究竟从何而来呢？

So where exactly does that pressure come from?

追求梦想工作的压力从何而来？

Where does the pressure to discover our dream job come from?

我认为，这种压力从很小的时候就开始了。

I think, personally, it starts really, really young.

回想一下我们还是孩子的时候。

Think back to when we were children.

那时我们已经隐约意识到，未来从事的职业是值得幻想并为之设定目标的事情。

Already we did have some concept that what we would eventually do for a living was something to fantasize about and create goals towards.

我们梦想成为芭蕾舞者、医生、老师、海洋生物学家、时尚设计师，等等。

We dreamed of being ballerinas or doctors, or teachers, marine biologists, fashion designers, you name it.

即使在这么小的年纪，我们已经通过模仿父母和周围人的行为，被灌输了这样一种观念：工作是分等级的。

Even at such a young age, we were already conditioned from modelling our parents' behaviour and the people around us to see work, to see our jobs as something that was hierarchical.

有些工作充满快乐与热情，能带给我们幸福，而另一些工作则只是必须完成的任务。

Whereby there were some jobs that were filled with joy and passion and which will make us happy, and there were other jobs that just needed to be done.

我们可能还见过父母对工作感到极度不满。

And we may have even seen our parents, you know, incredibly dissatisfied with work.

那些童年早期的经历，我们父母的经历，都会在我们心中留下印记。

And those early childhood experiences, the experiences of our parents, they leave an impression on us.

这在某种程度上决定了我们如何看待自己未来的定位。

And it kind of determines where we see ourselves in a future in the future.

这也在某种程度上留下了这样一种印象，你知道，我永远不想变成那样。

And it kind of leaves this impression of, you know, I never wanna be like that.

我永远不想做一份我讨厌的工作。

I never wanna work a job that I hate.

你知道吗，我觉得可能有更多孩子想成为作家或首相，而不是收债员，尽管我认为所有职业在社会中都有其重要地位。

You know, I feel like a lot more children probably wanna be an author or the prime minister than a debt collector, even though I think all jobs have an important place in society.

部分原因在于，有些职业被理想化，被描绘得极其美好，仿佛梦想一般，而另一些职业则几乎无人提及。

And part of that is because there are jobs that are idealized and made to seem amazing and made to seem like a dream, and others that don't really get a mention.

它们就是不够光鲜亮丽，或者不够引人注目。

They're just not glamorous or they're not visible.

因此，从幼年起，我们就被灌输了这种关于梦想职业的观念。

And so from that early age, we're indoctrinated with this idea of a dream job.

还有其他方式让这个概念以无意识或隐性的方式影响我们。

And there's other ways that this concept comes up and leaves an impression on us unconsciously or implicitly.

有一句名言我相信我们都听过某种版本：如果你热爱你所做的事情，你就永远不会觉得在工作。

There's a quote that I'm sure we've all heard in in some form that if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life.

我们在生活的许多领域都能看到类似的信息，这看起来似乎无害。

And we see similar messages in so many areas of our lives, and it might seem innocent enough.

在某些方面，这确实有道理。

And in some ways, it definitely makes sense.

对吧？

Right?

当我们热爱自己的工作、享受其中时，我们会想要去做它，就像我们想要去做一项爱好或任何我们热爱和享受的事情一样。

Like, when we love our work, when we enjoy doing it, we will want to do it the same way we want to do a hobby or anything else that we love and enjoy.

但我认为，这个观念背后有一种更隐蔽的东西，它会给那些尚未找到方向的人带来很多怀疑和压力。

But I think there's something more insidious about this idea that can create a lot of doubt and pressure on those of us who don't have it figured out yet.

我认为这可能是大多数听众的状况，你知道的。

Which I think is probably well, you know, the majority of the people who are listening.

而且，‘做你所爱之事’这种建议本身就带有特权色彩。

And do what you love is is such privileged advice.

对吧？

Right?

它实际上忽略了世界上大多数人、街上熙熙攘攘的行人，他们根本没有选择去做真正热爱之事的奢侈。

And it really ignores the fact that most of the world's population, most of the people walking up and down the street, they don't really have the luxury of choosing to do something they really love.

要知道，工作是他们获得经济支持的方式。

You know, a job is the way that they, you know, receive financial support.

这是他们谋生和安身立命的方式，并不一定是为了情感上的满足。

It's the way that they eat and they house themselves, and it's not necessarily for emotional fulfillment.

我认为这还可能带来一种糟糕的感受，当你并不热爱自己的职业，而人们却告诉你应该热爱时，这会制造很多羞耻感。因为它宣扬了一种观念——再次强调，这种观念从我们年幼时就已形成——即你生活中最重要的是你的职业成就。

I think also it can be kind of awful and it can create a lot of shame when you don't love your career, and when people are telling you that you should because it promotes this idea, once again from an early age, that what matters most in your life is what you do professionally.

我们的工作是我们生活的中心，是我们幸福感的主要来源。如果我们不喜欢自己所做的事，如果我们对自己想做什么毫无头绪，那么我们就不可能快乐。

That our jobs, they are the center of our lives, our primary source of happiness, and if we don't enjoy what we do, if we don't have a clue about what we wanna do, you know, we're not going to be happy.

而且，你知道，有时候我们热爱的事情就是无法维持生计。

And, you know, there's sometimes these things that we love doing and we just can't make a living.

你知道，工作可以只是工作，你完全有权利对它感到满足。

We're you know, work can just be work, and you're allowed to be satisfied with that.

当我们不断听到这种信息，尤其是当你从事一份不喜欢的工作，或者意识到你梦想中的工作其实被过度美化时，恐慌就会产生。

And when we're continually hearing that message, particularly if you are working a job that you don't like or you realize that your dream job is just kind of hyped up, the panic.

我们经常提到的这种职业焦虑，就是在这个时候开始出现的。

That career anxiety that we talk about quite frequently, that's when it starts to emerge.

除此之外，再加上我提到的那句名言，我们还从家人、老师、朋友和媒体那里接收到大量期望，认为我们必须知道自己想做什么。

In addition, and on top of that messaging, like that quote that I mentioned, we're also getting a lot of these expectations from our families and our teachers and our friends and the media that we need to know what we want to do.

我们必须心中有一个梦想职业。

We need to have a dream job in mind.

这种压力代代相传，因为我们的职业在身份认同中的比重变得越来越大。

A lot of that pressure has been passed down from generation to generation as our careers have become much larger and a greater contribution to our identity.

你知道，我们在工作场所度过的时间更长，退休更晚，通货膨胀加剧，迫使我们不得不工作更长时间、更多年。

You know, we spend more time in the workplace, we retire later, We're seeing inflation rise to the extent that we do have to work longer hours and for more years.

而且，我们现在正处于经济衰退期。

And, you know, we're in a recession right now.

生活成本太高了，我们需要一种方式来负担生活和支付账单。

The cost of living is so high, and we need a way to afford to live and to pay our bills.

而被灌输通过‘梦想工作’这个神话，可以在工作的同时享受生活，这其实是巧妙地转移了我们的注意力，让我们回避一个更深层的认知：工作其实不必成为我们日常生活和生命的核心，这种观念某种程度上是不自然的。

And being told that there's a way to work and still enjoy life through this myth of the dream job is a pretty excellent way to distract us from the cognitive dissonance associated with maybe that deeper acknowledgment that work doesn't really have to be the center of our days and of our lives, and that it's kind of unnatural.

我们可能更想做些其他事情，而不是被关在办公室里。

We probably want to be doing other things rather than being cooped up in an office.

就像我之前说的，我们大多数人将在整个职业生涯和成年生活中，每天工作八小时或更久。

And like I said before, most of us will end up working eight or more hours a day for most of our working and adult lives.

因此，如果我们被告知可以享受自己所从事的工作，甚至更进一步地说，我们的职业决定了我们身份的很大一部分，这自然会让我们对投入这些任务的时间感到更安心。

So it does make sense that if we're told that we can enjoy what we do, and even bigger than that, that our careers determine so much of our identity, it's going to make us feel better about how much time we're devoting to these tasks.

这是另一个观点。

And that's another point.

我们的职业是我们身份的重要决定因素，所以我们想选对职业。

Our career is a huge determinant of our identity, so we wanna choose the right one.

对吧？

Right?

想想你最近一次认识新朋友的情景。

Think about the most recent time you met someone new.

也许是在派对上，或者通过共同的朋友，又或者是在约会应用上匹配的。

Maybe it was at a party or through a mutual friend or you matched on a dating app.

我敢保证，他们肯定第一个问你靠什么谋生，或者你在哪儿工作。

I promise you, one of the first questions I'm sure they asked is what do you do for a living or where do you work?

这太常见了，说明我们的身份以及别人对我们的看法，很大程度上取决于我们的职业。

It's so common, and it indicates how much our identity and people's perception of us is determined by what we do for a living.

你知道吗，前几天在派对上有人问我这个问题，真的让我精疲力尽。

You know, I was asked this question at a party the other day, and it was so exhausting.

那里有太多新面孔了。

There were so many new people there.

到晚上快结束时，我干脆开始胡编乱造了。

By the end of the night, I honestly just started making stuff up.

我实在太沮丧了。

I was so frustrated.

我当时跟别人说我是爬行动物兽医。

I'm like, I think I told someone I was a reptile vet.

我都不知道这算不算一个职业。

Don't even know if that's a job.

还有一次，我说我是电工，几乎是想做个社会实验，看看他们的反应以及他们对我的看法会如何改变。

And, you know, another person that I was an electrician, almost as like a social experiment to see their reaction and how they changed their perception of me.

因为我们可能试图否认这一点，但我们的工作和职业确实是自我认同的重要支柱，尤其在外在形象上，我认为这和我们的朋友、家人、喜好、厌恶、外貌、性格一样重要。

Because we might try and deny it, but our jobs, our careers are a pretty major pillar of our identity, particularly the outward appearance of our identity as, you know, prominent, I think, as, you know, our friends and our families, our likes, our dislikes, our appearance, our personality.

当我们开始将自尊与工作表现或职业选择挂钩时，这种情况会更加加剧。

And this is only exacerbated when we begin to link our self esteem to our work performance or to our job selection.

已经有一些非常有趣的研究探讨了我们的职业生活与自我认同之间的这种关联。

There's been some really interesting studies on the outcome of this interlinkage between our professional lives and our identities.

一项在美国进行的纵向研究——目前仍在进行中——但到目前为止，已显示出一些初步发现：我们从事的工作确实会塑造我们的个性，比如我们对环境的掌控感、自信心以及主动性。

And a longitudinal study in The US, it's actually still ongoing, it's still being conducted, but so far they've shown some preliminary insights that the work we do does shape our personality and the things like our sense of control over our environment, our confidence, how proactive we are.

我们的工作还具有重要的经济和社会影响，因为工作表现的结果实际上会影响我们的安全感和生计。

And our work also has an important economic and social implications such that the outcomes of our work performance actually have consequences for our sense of security and our livelihood.

因此，研究发现，当我们工作时感到快乐和满足，这实际上会让我们感到更安全，更外向；而当我们感到表现不佳、不满意或没有成就感时，我们会经历更多的神经质、焦虑，甚至抑郁。

So research has found that when we are happy at work, when we are feeling fulfilled, this can actually lead us to feel more secure and then more extroverted, whereas when we feel that we are underperforming or we're unsatisfied or unfulfilled, we experience more neuroticism, more anxiety, and even depression.

考虑到这些，我想强调的是，享受你所做的事情确实带来诸多好处。

And with all of that in mind, I wanna stress, you know, enjoying what you do does come with lots of benefits.

就像我刚才说的，性格、身份、自尊都与我们在职业生活中的所作所为息息相关。

Like I just said, you know, personality, identity, self esteem, it's linked to what we do in our professional lives.

这与我们的职业生涯紧密相连。

It's linked to our careers.

我所讨论的，并不是那种‘你不该享受你的职业’的争论。

And I don't think that that debate, you know, that you you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy your career is what I'm talking about.

我认为更重要的是，即使你不知道自己想做什么，你依然可以感到满足。

I think more than that, it's that you can be satisfied without knowing what you wanna do.

即使你尚未发现自己的理想工作，或者你觉得你根本没有这样的工作，也不意味着你就不会快乐。

And even if you haven't discovered your dream job or maybe you don't think that you have one, it doesn't mean that you're not going to be happy.

这并不意味着你不自信，也不意味着你非得拥有一份理想工作。

It doesn't mean that you're not going to be confident, and it doesn't mean that you need to have a dream job.

所以接下来我想谈谈梦想工作哲学之外的替代方案，以及我们如何重新调整与工作的关系来找到答案。

So what I want to talk about next is the alternatives to the dream job philosophy, and how we can almost recenter our relationship towards figuring it out.

我们如何在不给自己施加不当压力、不陷入那种因不知想做什么而感到极度内疚、羞耻和焦虑的危险循环的情况下，重新调整与工作的关系。

How we can recenter our relationship towards work without putting that undue pressure on ourselves and falling into that dangerous cycle of of feeling really guilty and really shameful and feeling anxious about what we wanna do.

我们的下一个合作伙伴有一款我几乎每天都在使用的产品。

Our next partner has a product I use literally every day.

我开始服用AG1是因为我正处于一段健康之旅中，我想更好地照顾我的免疫系统和肠道健康。

I started taking AG1 because I've been on a bit of a health journey, I wanted to take better care of my immune system and my gut health.

只需一勺美味的AG1，你基本上就能吸收75种高质量的维生素、矿物质、益生菌等所有有益成分。

And with one delicious scoop of AG1 you're essentially absorbing 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, probiotics all that good stuff.

它对神经系统和免疫系统都非常有益。

And it's really great for your nervous system and your immune system.

这只是一个简单的微习惯，你可以将其融入日常生活，并带来巨大的益处。

It's just one simple micro habit that you can incorporate into your daily life with big benefits.

它超级适合各种生活方式，而且Athletic Greens也是一家获得气候中和认证的公司，我们在节目中非常喜欢这一点。

It's super lifestyle friendly and Athletic Greens is also a climate neutral certified company which we absolutely love on the show.

现在是时候重新掌控你的健康，通过便捷的日常营养来增强你的免疫系统。

Right now it is time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with a convenient daily nutrition.

每天只需一勺兑入一杯水中，就这么简单，无需服用成千上万种药片和补充剂来维护健康。

It's just one scoop in a cup of water every day, that's it, no need for a million different pills and supplements to look after your health.

为了方便起见，Athletic Greens 将在你首次购买时赠送你一年免费的免疫支持维生素D，以及五份免费的旅行装。

And to make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

你只需访问 athleticgreens.com/gemma，再次访问 athleticgreens.com/gemma，来掌握自己的健康，获取终极日常营养保障。

All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/gemma again that's athleticgreens.com/gemma to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

正如我所说，享受你的工作确实很重要。

Like I said, there's no denying that enjoying your job is important.

你知道，统计数据表明，那些从事自己喜爱的工作的人会更快乐。

You know, statistics do show that people who are more engaged in the work they enjoy, they're they're happier.

他们更快乐。

They are happier.

但这并不意味着只有一份工作才能让你快乐。

But it doesn't mean that there's only one job that's going to make you happy.

然后如果你不这么做，你就注定会痛苦。

And then if you're not doing that, you're destined for misery.

这位来自布里斯托大学的认知科学家就此写了一篇非常吸引人的文章，我真的很想分享它，因为他得出的结论是：热爱你所做的事情实际上并不会带来更大的幸福感，尽管人们常常倾向于将幸福感等同于工作成功或热爱自己的工作。

And this cognitive scientist from the University of Bristol, he wrote a really fascinating article on this, and I really wanted to share it because what he concluded is that loving what you do doesn't actually lead to greater happiness, despite the temptation to equate happiness with being successful at work or loving what you do.

通常会有这样一种模式：你开始越来越努力地工作，直到突然之间，如果你不工作就会感到内疚。

Often there is this pattern where you start working harder and harder to the point where all of a sudden you feel guilty if you're not working.

而当这种情况发生时，你的工作与生活平衡、家庭责任、兴趣爱好以及职业生涯之外的生活，就会开始受到影响。

And the moment that happens, your work life balance and your family obligations and your hobbies and your life beyond your career, it begins to suffer.

有时你抵达了自认为的梦想目的地、理想工作，却发现它完全不是你预期的样子。

Sometimes you arrive at what you think is your dream destination, your dream job, and you realize that it's not at all what you expected.

不仅如此，有时还存在一些因素让它变得非常不愉快或令人难受，比如长时间工作、报酬较低、体力消耗比预想的更大。我认为在那一刻，无论那个职位是否是你的理想工作，如果你不快乐，这些都无关紧要。

And not only that, that, you know, there are sometimes factors that make it really unenjoyable or really unpleasant, you know, the long hours, the rewards are lower, it's more physically demanding than you thought it would be, And I think in that moment, whether or not that position is your dream job, it's not going to matter if you're unhappy.

你应该有足够的信心去做出改变，也应该得到足够的支持去选择不同的道路。

And you should feel confident enough to, be able to change, and you should feel supported enough to be able to choose something different.

这并不总是关乎你正在从事的具体工作。

It's not always about the specific job you're working.

关键在于你履行该角色时所处的环境。

It's about things like the environment in which you're performing that role.

关键在于与你共事的人。

It's about the people that you're associated with.

要知道，有时候我做咖啡师或服务员时，比现在从事专业工作更快乐，尽管从社会角度看，后者更有声望，因为这并不总是关乎你的职位头衔，而在于你履行职责时所处的环境。

You know, there are times that I was happier working as a barista or as a waiter than I am in my professional job, even though one of those, you know, from society's perspective comes with more prestige, because it's not always about your job title, it's about the environment in which it's being performed.

我坚信，对我们所有人来说，并不存在一份完美的工作或职业，不仅如此，也没有一份工作能完全适应我们的生活。

And I do firmly believe that there's not one perfect job or career out there for all of us, And not only that, there's not one job that's going to suit our lives.

我认为人类具有惊人的可塑性。

I think humans are incredibly malleable.

他们适应能力很强。

They're adaptable.

他们是灵活的生物，拥有很多方面和很多优势。

They're flexible creatures with a lot of facets and a lot of strengths.

而且我们的许多优势和特质会随着时间的推移而改变。

And many of our strengths and qualities are going to change over time.

我们对生活期望的许多方面也会随着时间的推移而改变。

And many of our desires for what we want from our lives are going to change over time as well.

我读到一个统计数据，指出本世纪出生的人一生中平均会经历三到四次职业转变。

And I read the statistic that the average person born in this century is going to have three to four career changes in their lives.

这就是我们。

That's us.

这就是这一代人。

That's this generation.

我已经经历过两次职业转变，而且像你一样，我可能才刚进入成年的第一个十年。

You know, I've already had two career changes, and probably like you, I'm only in my first decade of adulthood.

我曾经以为自己想要的、最终的目标，那份理想工作，其实根本不是我真正梦想的工作。

And the dream job that I thought I wanted and my final destination at the time, it certainly was not my dream job.

而我现在从事的完全是另一份工作。

And I'm doing something entirely different now.

当我回顾自己的人生历程时，我意识到，并不存在某一件事能让我一直快乐。

And one thing I realized when I was thinking about my own journey is that there isn't one thing that was going to make me happy.

不是一份工作，也不是一种职业。

Not one job, not one career.

那些工作曾让我快乐了一段时间。

Those jobs made me happy for a time.

但外面还有我甚至尚未了解的其他事物，它们可能会让我感到更加充实。

But there are other things out there that I don't even know about yet that are probably going to fulfill me even more.

这样想吧。

Think about it this way.

我们并非只有一种能让自己快乐的爱好。

We don't just have one hobby that makes us happy.

我们不会仅仅因为喜欢画画、它让我快乐且我擅长，就决定这辈子只做这一件事。

We don't just decide, you know, I love painting and that's all I'm gonna do because it makes me happy and I'm good at it.

我们不会只喜欢和某一个朋友相处，或只拥有一项非凡的技能、一种最爱的食物，或一个最喜欢的地方。

We don't just have one friend that we like being around, or one really amazing skill, or one favorite food, or one favorite place.

有许多事物能让我们感到充实和快乐。

There are many things that make us fulfilled and happy.

选择职业也是如此。

And the same goes for the line of work we choose.

所以，我希望如果你感到迷茫，这能让你感觉好一些。

So I'm hoping that if you feel stuck, that makes you feel better.

无论你现在正在做什么，无论你现在认为自己想做什么，都还有一些你尚未发现的事情，可能更能满足你内心更深层的需求或渴望。

That whatever you're doing right now, whatever you think you wanna do right now, there are things that you haven't even discovered yet, could fill an even deeper, you know, an even deeper need or desire within you.

因此，我想和那些此刻正经历这种感受的人聊聊，分享一些应对寻找合适职业或工作时焦虑的建议。

And so I wanted to kind of talk about and talk to the people who might be experiencing that right now, and some of the tips for overcoming the anxiety about finding the right career path for you or the job.

正如我所说，整个心理学领域都在研究这个话题，专注于我们的职业生涯，关于如何找到令人满足的工作，甚至在从未想象过的岗位中创造意义，相关文献非常丰富。

Like I said, there is an entire field of psychology dedicated to this, and dedicated to this idea of our professional lives, and there's so much literature on how we can find jobs we find fulfilling, and we can create meaning even in those that we never dreamed of.

首先，与其试图想象你认为自己擅长或会令你快乐的特定职业，不如采取更全面的视角。

Firstly, instead of trying to imagine a specific career you think you'd be good at or that would make you happy, take a more holistic perspective.

我想让你问问自己以下几个问题。

I want you to ask yourself, you know, the following questions.

你最喜欢做什么？

What do you love doing?

你最大的个人优势是什么？

What is your greatest personal strength?

有什么活动是你可以花上好几个小时去做的？

What is an activity you could spend hours on?

在学校里，哪门科目你其实不需要太费力，但成绩依然很好？

What is a subject at school that you never really had to work that hard at, but you still did really well?

对于你的个人生活，有哪些是不可妥协的原则？

What are some of your nonnegotiables for your personal life?

除了工作之外，你想要过什么样的生活？

What kind of life do you wanna have beyond work?

我认为这比仅仅在某个年龄选择一份工作并认定那就是最终选择，能揭示更多东西。

I think this reveals a lot more than simply choosing a job at a certain age and deciding that that's the one.

这就是我决定要做的事。

That's what I've decided to do.

让我在这里举个例子。

Let me use an example here.

你知道，也许你最大的优势之一就是你真的很善于与人建立联系。

You know, maybe one of your greatest strengths is that you really connect with people.

你真的很会照顾人。

You're really nurturing.

在学校里，你的生物学和解剖学成绩很好，但你希望平衡工作与旅行，也许你还想要一个家庭。

And at school, you did really well in biology and anatomy, But you have a desire to balance your work life with travel and maybe you want a family.

所以你希望兼职工作或者能有一段时间的休假。

So you want to work part time or take periods of time off.

如果你只是从表面上看待其中一个因素，比如别人告诉你，你非常擅长科学而且学习很用功，你可能会想，好吧，那我应该成为一名医生，这能让我感到非常快乐和满足。

If you just took one of those elements at face value, you know, people told you that you were really good at science and you were really studious, you might be like, okay, well then I should be a doctor and that's going to make me really happy and fulfilled.

但我们忽略了自我评估中的其他方面，那就是灵活性和与人建立联系的能力。

But there are other elements of that self appraisal that we're forgetting, which is the flexibility and the connection to people.

要知道，如果你是一名外科医生，大部分时间你的病人很可能处于麻醉状态，所以你无法真正与一个失去意识的人建立联系。

You know, if you're a surgeon, most of the time your patient is probably going to be anaesthetised, so you're not really going to be able to connect with someone who's unconscious.

也许你作为一名旅行护士或学校护士会更快乐，这样的工作既能让你满足其他对你重要的需求，同时又能发挥你的技能和长处。

And maybe you would actually be happier as a travelling nurse or as a school nurse, something that allows you to satisfy the other things that are important to you while still leveraging your skills and your strengths.

当我们全面评估生活的全貌和范围时，这很可能会让你更快乐。

And it's probably gonna make you a lot happier when we assess the full picture and the scope of our life.

这可能是一个更好的决定，因为我们的期望更加一致。

It may be a better decision because our expectations are more aligned.

我想说的是，当我们只看到自己能做一件事时，我们就在限制自己。

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when we only see ourselves doing one thing, we limit ourselves.

所以，相反地，专注于你选择特定职业的根本原因，给自己自由去看看你还能适应哪里，什么可能更适合你，什么实际上能让你更快乐，即使它不那么有声望，即使它不需要那么多学习，与其寻找你热爱的职业，不如找到你热爱的事情。

So instead, focus of on, you know, those fundamentals of why you want to choose a particular career, and give yourself the freedom to see where else you may fit, what might suit you better, what might actually make you happier, even if it's not as prestigious, even if it's you know, doesn't require as much study, instead of finding a career that you love, find something that you love.

找到一份能让你感到充实的工作，无论薪酬多少，无论同事如何，无论身处何地。

Find something that's going to fulfill you regardless of how much you're getting paid, regardless of your coworkers, regardless of where you live.

找到一份适合你生活和发挥你优势的工作。

Find something that's going to suit your life and your strengths.

我认为另一个建议是，要允许自己对不确定性感到不适。

And I think another tip is to allow yourself to be uncomfortable with uncertainty.

生活中没有太多确定的事，但唯一确定的就是变化和不稳定。

Not much in life is certain, but the one thing that is is change and inconsistency.

这确实是一个很好的提醒，不仅在我们思考职业生涯时，在我们思考一切事情时都是如此。

It's a really good reminder, not just when we think about our careers, when we think about everything.

未来有些工作甚至还没有被创造出来。

There are jobs in the future that haven't even been created yet.

那些改变人生的时刻会彻底改变你对生活的整个看法和期望。

Life changing moments that will completely alter your entire outlook and expectations for your life.

将会有许多你无法想象的机会。

There will be so many opportunities that you cannot imagine.

而且认为你必须致力于一个梦想的工作，尤其是在这个年纪，特别是当我们20岁、被允许犯错和尝试新事物的时候，我认为这实际上限制了那些机会。

And thinking that you need to commit to one dream job, especially at this age, especially when we're 20 and we're allowed to make mistakes and try things out, I think it actually restricts those opportunities.

你的梦想是会改变的。

Your dreams are going to change.

与18岁时相比，不再是同一个人、拥有相同目标，这很正常。

It's normal to not be the same person with the same goals as you were when you were 18.

五年后，基于你控制范围内和超出控制范围的各种情况，你可能会过上完全不同的生活。

And five years from now, you could be living a completely different life based on circumstances both within and and beyond your control.

坦然接受事物会变化、不确定性会让你拥抱更多选择和机会这一认知，最终可能会让你到达一个比盲目相信‘梦想工作’神话并为之奋斗到天涯海角更适合你的地方。

And being comfortable with the knowledge that things will change and that uncertainty will allow you to embrace more options and opportunities and maybe end up at a place that is better for you than if you did believe this myth of the dream job, and you did pursue it to, you know, the very ends of the earth.

最后我想再提醒一点——我知道我们已经提过，但我真的很想以此作结——如果你感到迷茫，如果你还没找到自己的梦想工作，无论你认为它是否真实存在，请记住：你选择谋生的方式并非你身份认同的唯一来源。

One final reminder that I know we've already mentioned, but I really want to finish on this note, is to remind you that if you're feeling stuck, if you haven't figured out your dream job yet, regardless of whether you think it's real or not, what you choose to do for a living is not the sole source of your identity.

我们过于沉迷于想要显得一切尽在掌握、从事令人钦佩的事业，以至于忘记了生活远不止我们选择如何支付账单。

We get so wrapped up in wanting to appear like we have it all together and doing something that is admirable, that we forget that life is a lot more than how we choose to pay our bills.

工作可以只是我们享受生活中其他事物的手段，因为我们整个人生并不等同于我们的职业生涯。

Our jobs can just give us the means to an end to enjoy the other things in life because our entire lives are not our careers.

你可以在生活中建立许多其他组成部分，它们同样会让你感到快乐。

You can build up so many other components of your life that are gonna make you equally happy.

而且我认为，认为工作有责任让我们快乐，这完全是一种迷思。

And I think it's a myth that it is the sole responsibility of our jobs to do that, to make us happy.

要知道，你的生活现在和将来都包含远比工作选择更多的组成部分。

You know, your life does and will continue to consist of so many more components than just what you choose to do for work.

我认为追求梦想职业，尤其是那些非常困难的目标，可能会带来满足感，但如果我们过于专注单一目标，有时最终会发现自己忽略了其他方面。

And I think pursuing a dream job, especially something that's really difficult, it might bring us satisfaction, but sometimes if we do that with too much of a singular narrow focus, we end up in a place where we realize that we've neglected other things.

我认为，只要我们选择的任何工作能让你过自己的生活，只要你专注于事业之外那些让你快乐的事物，只要它能支付你的账单，你仍然会感到满足。

And I think we can be happy in any job that we choose as long as it allows you to live your life, as long as you're focused on the things beyond your career that make you happy, as long as it pays your bills, you're still going to feel satisfied.

你仍然会感到充实。

You're still going to feel fulfilled.

我认为，我们应该允许自己某种程度上摒弃那种'我们生来只为做一件事'的观念，要明白世界很大，世界很广阔，甚至还有我们尚未知晓的机会，它们将彻底改变你的人生轨迹，改变历史的进程。

And we should allow ourselves, I think, to kind of relegate that idea that there's only one thing that we're born to do, to understand that the world is large, the world is wide, and there are opportunities that we don't even know about yet that are going to completely change the course of your life, the course of history.

我认为这是一个美好的结束语。

I think that's a lovely message to end on.

就像我说的，这期节目我简直不敢相信自己没早点做，因为我总是收到很多邮件和消息，人们都在说：我真的不知道自己在做什么。

This episode was I like I said, I cannot believe I didn't do it sooner because I get so many emails and messages all the time of people being like, I really don't know what I'm doing.

我真的毫无头绪。

I really have no idea.

而且我要告诉你，我也不知道。

And I'm gonna tell you, I don't either.

我完全不知道。

I have no idea.

在我生活中，有很多二十多岁的人也完全不知道自己想做什么，这完全没关系。

And there are so many people in their twenties in my life who have no idea as well, and that is totally okay.

这完全没关系。

It's totally okay.

正如我所说，你会经历很多次职业转变。

Like I said, you're gonna have so many career changes.

会有许多事情发生，新的爱好，新的热情。

There's gonna be so many things that that happen, newfound hobbies, newfound passions.

培养生活中那些不只围绕工作展开的其他方面，将帮助你建立更健康的职业关系和更健康的专业生活态度。

And nurturing the other things in your life that aren't just based in work will allow you to have a healthier relationship to your career and a healthier relationship to your professional life.

非常感谢你们的聆听。

So thank you so much for listening.

我真的希望你们喜欢这一期。

I really hope you enjoyed it.

我希望，如果你现在正感到一些职业焦虑或陷入困境，这能让你感觉好一些。

I hope that if you're feeling a bit of career anxiety or feeling a bit stuck right now, it made you feel better.

我真心希望情况确实如此。

I really hope that that is the case.

如果你喜欢这一集，请随意。

And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free.

如果你觉得方便的话，可以在苹果播客、Spotify或你正在收听的任何平台留下五星好评。

If you feel cool to do so, to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.

如果你想获取更多类似内容，请在Instagram上关注那个心理学播客。

And if you want more content like this, follow that psychology podcast on Instagram.

每个月我都会让听众决定他们想听哪些节目。

Every month I let my listeners decide what episodes they want to hear.

他们可以决定接下来播什么，节目内容是什么。

They get to decide what comes next, what's on the show.

这也是我宣布即将到来的嘉宾、即将参与的人以及即将推出的周边商品等众多不同内容的地方。

And it's also where I announce the guests that are coming on, people that are coming on, merchandise that it's coming out soon, so many different things.

所以如果你愿意，可以在那边关注我，希望你度过美好的一天。

So follow me over there if you want, and I hope you have an amazing day.