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其余内容由Octopus Energy呈现。
The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy.
现在我可以告诉你一件Octopus Energy的酷事吗？当你打电话给他们并需要等待时。
Now can I tell you something cool that Octopus Energy do if you ring them and you have to be put on hold?
因为他们知道你是谁。
Because they know who you are.
他们知道你的生日。
They know your birthday.
等待音乐是你14岁时最畅销的单曲。
The hold music is the best selling single from the year that you were 14.
这挺酷的，对吧。
That's quite cool, isn't Yes.
我非常喜欢这个。
Well I love this.
没错。
Exactly.
我帮你查过了。
I've looked into it for you.
你想知道你14岁那年最畅销的单曲是什么吗？
Do want to know the best selling single in the year that you turned 14?
所以这就会是你的答案。
So this would be your Yes.
Octopus Energy的等待音乐。
Hold music on Octopus Energy.
是Yaz的《The Only Way Is Up》。
It is Yaz, The Only Way Is Up.
你觉得怎么样？
What do we think to that?
Yaz和塑料人群。
Well, Yaz and the plastic population.
Yaz和塑料人群。
Yaz and the plastic population.
哦，当然了。
Oh, of course.
所以你知道吗？
So do you know what?
我有时觉得，塑料人群并没有得到应有的认可。
I sometimes think the plastic population do do not get their due.
他们确实没得到。
They don't get that.
他们没得到。
They don't
得到这个。
get that.
这个。
It.
你知道吗，我现在得给Octopus打个电话，就听听这首歌。
You know, I need to ring it to Octopus now and just listen to it.
你可以选择说，哦，我一点都不想听等待音乐。
I you you can choose to say, oh, I don't want to have any hold music at all.
当然可以。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以做任何你想做的事。
You can you can do whatever
你想怎样都行。
you want.
动物？
Animals?
什么怪物，好吧。
What monster okay.
那首歌可能非常难听，但哪些怪物会选择去听呢？
It might be a really bad song, but what monsters don't choose to listen?
我得说，那首歌，真的是那首歌。
I have to say To the song did the song.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢他们这么做。
I love that they do.
我们会在另一集里做这个，但然后我们会发现，是的。
We're gonna do this for me in another episode, but then but then we find out if I yeah.
我觉得我比你大不少吧？
I think I'm considerably older than you, aren't I?
没多少。
Not that much.
什么？
What?
就差两三年吧。
It's, like, two, three years,
是吗？
is it?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你会说，你14岁那年最畅销的单曲是理查德的《Cumberland Gap》，由Lonnie Donaghan演唱。
You'll be saying, and the best selling single in the year that you were 14, Richard, it's Cumberland Gap by Lonnie Donaghan.
大家好，欢迎收看本期《娱乐其余部分》，我是玛丽娜·海厄。
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment with me, Marina High.
还有我，理查德·奥斯本。
And me, Richard Osborne.
嗨，玛丽娜。
Hi, Marina.
你好，理查德。
Hello, Richard.
你怎么样？
How are you?
我还行。
I'm alright.
要是现在当娱乐节目的话，我们马上就要狠狠地批评它，我可不想当这个角色。
I wouldn't wanna be entertainment right about now with the grilling we're about to give it.
当然。
Absolutely.
我们准备全面审视一下。
We're preparing to run the rule over it all.
我们有很多有趣的话题要聊。
There's we've got quite a few fun things to talk about.
是的。
We have.
我们要聊聊人工智能与书籍。
We're gonna talk about AI in books.
有些人已经在使用它了。
Some people are using it.
有几个知名的例子。
Couple of high profile examples of that.
有几位大傻瓜正要登场。
A couple of couple of Big Fools on the way.
我们正在讨论这个。
We're talking about that.
我们在讨论关于大傻瓜的事。
We are talking about talking about Big Fools.
这是一个精彩的故事。
It's amazing story.
如果你知道这个故事，你一定会喜欢。
If you know the story, you're gonna love it.
如果你不知道这个故事，我觉得你可能会更喜欢。
If you don't know the story, I think you might love it even more.
《摩门妻子的隐秘生活》的女主角和《单身汉》新一季的明星刚刚一次性收购了这两个节目品牌。
The star of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and the new season of The Bachelorette has just bought both of those franchises down in one go.
我们在讨论这是怎么做到的。
We're talking about how.
真是彻底的打压。
What a take down.
我们先从AI在书籍中的应用开始吗？
Shall we start with AI in books?
我们有两个故事想聊聊。
We've got two stories we want to talk about.
我应该先讲我的故事吗？
I want should we start with my story?
因为你好像想聊马特·古德温的事？
Because you've got, you wanna talk about Matt Goodwin?
我希望我们的听众明白，这个故事我无论如何都认真不起来。
I hope our audience understands that this is a story I find impossible to take seriously at any level.
你一整天都在座位上坐立不安，就是因为你想聊这个。
You are you've virtually been bouncing your seat all morning because you wanted to talk about it.
但米娅·巴尔德是一位美国作家，也是自出版作者，她写了一本叫《害羞的女孩》的书，我不知道你们听众是否喜欢女性恐怖血腥类作品，但这本书明确属于女性恐怖血腥类型，讲述了一个被绑架并被当作宠物关起来的角色。
But Mia Ballard, who is an an American author, self published author, who wrote a book called Shy Girl, which is I don't know, listeners, if you enjoy your fem gore horror, but it's it's firmly in the fem gore horror genre, about a character who is kidnapped and kept as a pet by listen.
这是一部女性恐怖血腥作品。
It's a it's femme gore horror.
是的。
Yeah.
正如我所说，她是一位自出版作者，出版了这本书。
As I say, she was a self published author, published this.
而如今出版业的现状，我经常谈论自出版。
And the way publishing is now, I've spoken a lot about self publishing.
所以我对这一点感到惊讶。
So I'm amazed that
别瞧不起自出版，因为有多少真正的出版热门作品
the Don't be sniffy about self publishing because how many of actual publishing hits
现在是从哪里来的呢？
now come from it?
那里的创意源泉简直浩瀚无边，出版商越来越频繁地转向这个源泉，直接拿那些已经受欢迎的作品来出版。
The well of creativity out there is absolutely huge, and publishers have been going to that well more and more and more to just take stuff that they know already is popular and publish it themselves.
所以传统出版业已经开始进入自助出版领域，几乎是从货架上拿走这些作品，重新包装，放进实体书店，从中赚取巨额利润。
So traditional publishing has started, you know, going into self publishing, taking these things off the shelf almost, repackaging them, putting them in, you know, bricks and mortar shops, and making a lot of money out of that.
另一件正在发生的事是，自助出版的顶端已经开始为人们带来巨额收入。
The other thing that's happening is self publishing, quite apart from the top end of it starting to make a huge amount of money for people.
另一件正在发生的事是，它已经被人工智能彻底淹没了。
The other thing that's happening is it's been absolutely flooded with AI.
因为在这个世界里，你期望一本书只花99美分，还期望作者一年出十本书。
Because this is a world in which you expect to pay 99¢ for a book, and you expect an author to do 10 books a year.
你知道，这些就是自助出版中的一些现象。
You know, these are the some of the some of the the things that happen in self publishing.
因此，这里非常适合人工智能的渗透。
And so it's absolutely rife for AI.
此外，这个市场没有任何进入壁垒。
Also, no barriers to entry into this market.
不需要经过编辑。
Don't have to go through an editor.
不需要经过出版社。
Don't have to go through a publisher.
不需要经过任何法律程序。
Doesn't have to go through anything legal.
你只需写好它，排好版，上传到亚马逊商店，或者也可以上传到许多其他平台。
You just write it, format it, put it on the Amazon store or or lots of other places you can do that as well.
所以一方面，所有自助出版的内容。
So one hand, all the self published stuff.
另一方面，传统出版社说，天啊，这些东西卖得真好。
On one hand, traditional publishers saying, oh my god, some of this stuff is really selling.
在某个时刻，以下情况必然会发生。
At some point, the following was going to happen.
传统出版商，比如全球最大的出版商之一哈切特，拿下了这本书——米亚·巴尔德的《害羞的女孩》，说我们要出版它，并在英国出版了。
That a traditional publisher, in this case, Hachette, one of the absolute biggest publishers in the world, took this book, Shy Girl by Mia Ballard, said, we are gonna publish this, published it in The UK.
这本书显然是由人工智能撰写，或者至少经过了大量修改，但哈切特接受了它，随后又将其销毁，并表示这绝对不可接受。
It appears it has been written or certainly heavily amended by AI and Hachette have accepted it, pulped it, said, this is absolutely unacceptable.
里面还有各种其他事情正在发生。
There's all sorts of other stuff going going on in there.
你提到一个很小的细节，那就是是的。
You a tiny thing about it, which is Yeah.
我对此相当感兴趣。
I was quite interested in.
好吧。
Okay.
所以当他们接受时，他们会说：我们要出版你的书。
So when they take it, they take they they say we're going to publish your book.
我们会真正地出版你的书。
We're going to properly publish your book.
抱歉用了‘proper’这个词，但只是为了在这里做个区分。
Sorry to use the word proper, but, you know, just to differentiate here.
传统出版。
Traditionally publish.
传统地出版你的书。
Traditionally publish your book.
他们说，我们正在和她一起完善这本书。
They said, we we are enjoying refining her book
是的。
Yeah.
和她一起。
With her.
那这意味着它和之前自助出版的文本并不完全一样，因为你现在有了编辑，他们会以最友善的方式说，比如，这里节奏太拖沓了之类的。
So does that mean it's not the exact text that went self published because you've now got an editor and they're gonna say, by the way, it really drags here or or something in the nicest possible way.
为了我们的目的，它必须得做一些改动，但你现在有了出版合同，现在你已经
It's gonna have to be a bit different for our purposes, but now you have a book deal and now you're
是的。
Yeah.
变得正规了，诸如此类。
Going legit and blah blah.
我的意思是，正如我们将会发现的，这实际上是一种中间状态，因为这不是那种出版商从一开始就深度参与、能够开会并全力投入的类型。
I mean, as we will discover, it's actually slightly a halfway house because it's not one of those ones where they're involved the publisher's involved right from the beginning and is able to sort of have meetings and, you know, is is heavily invested in it.
但他们还是会做一些尽职调查式的编辑，然后进行轻度润色。
But they will do some due diligence editing and then a light edit.
但你知道，本质上，他们知道有人喜欢这本书，也读过它。
But, you know, essentially, they know people like this book and were reading it.
是的。
Yeah.
出版界目前有一种氛围，我认为这非常合理：为什么我们要把我们认为一本书应该是什么样的标准，强加给一本已经畅销的书呢？
And there is a mood afoot in publishing, which I think is quite right of why would we impose what we think a book is on a book that is already selling.
所以这是一种轻度干预，但关键在于，大约两个半月前，Reddit上出现了一个帖子，开始对这件事提出质疑，说：我正在读米娅·巴尔德这本书的第一章，看起来很像AI写的。
So there's it's a light touch, but the key thing is there was a Reddit thread started about two and a half months ago that started raising questions about this and started saying, look, I'm reading the first chapter of this Mia Ballard book, and it looks a lot like AI.
它读起来非常像AI写的。
It's reading an awful lot like AI.
告诉我那些迹象是什么，因为我们知道在非虚构写作中有一些明显的特征。
Tell me what the signifiers were because we know we know some of them in nonfiction writing.
是的。
Yes.
比如，
Like,
不是X，而是Y。
it's not x, it's y.
完全一模一样。
It's exactly the same.
所以有一种情感上的平淡化。
So there is a there's there's an emotional flattening.
它不太擅长处理细微差别和起伏，除非是在单句内部。
It doesn't do nuance and peaks and troughs very well other than within individual sentences.
在单个句子中，它确实可以做到，比如‘光闪耀得仿佛黑暗从未存在，黑暗闪耀得仿佛光明从未出现’。
Within individual sentences, it it can actually go, you know, the light shone like darkness was never there, and the darkness shone like light was never to be.
它总是这样，让你忍不住说：‘哦，等等，有点不对劲。’
It does that sort of thing all the time where you go, oh, you go, oh, hold on a minute.
其实根本说不通。
Doesn't actually make any sense.
但它确实会这样。
It does yeah.
每一个名词都会配上一个形容词。
Every single noun will have an adjective.
我的意思是，它完全会过度使用这种手法。
I mean, it absolutely overwrites that sort of thing.
每一个动作都会配上一个明喻。
Every action has a simile.
每一个动作它都不会放过，一定会用‘有点像什么’来描述一番。
Every single one of it will it will not leave a single piece of action alone without, you know, describing what it is a bit like.
有很多三元组的列举，比如某个X、某个Y、某个Z。
There's lots of lists of three, something x, something y, something zed.
所有这些特点，每位作家都会留意。
Now all of these things, every writer listens.
破折号。
Dashes.
太多了。
So many.
是的。
Yeah.
它们多得不得了。
There's a of them.
现在人们已经能识别出哪些人写作时可以直接删掉破折号。
Think people have worked out now who you can just go through and say, take out em dash.
但这真的很难，尤其是对于
But It's really hard, especially for
数字原住民，他们成长于这样的
digital natives who've grown up in these kind of
是的
Yeah.
文字世界中。
Word you know, worlds.
你会潜移默化地吸收这种写作风格。
You absorb the writing style.
我的意思是，我希望不会，但作为一名记者，我一直在等有人指出：你的专栏是AI写的，但其实并不是。
I mean, I hope I don't, but I'm I'm I feel as a journalist, I'm waiting for someone to say, your column's AI, and it not be.
而这
And this
我知道我们稍后会深入讨论这一点，
is I know we'll get to a whole section of discussion on that,
但正因如此，这件事才如此有趣，因为很多人会说：没错，但这就是人们的写法，尤其是神经多样性人群的写法。
but This is why it's a really interesting thing because a lot of people will say, yes, but that's how people write, and particularly, that's how neurodiverse people write.
所有这些都属实。
And all of that is true.
每一个都是
Every single one
基于这些人训练出来的。
of trained on those people.
这些每一个特点、这些刻板印象，都是作家们会使用的。
Every single one of these things, these tropes are things that writers use.
然而，他们并不会在每一页上都一直使用，而AI却会。
However, they don't use it all the time on every page, which is what AI does.
它一遍又一遍、重复做着同样的事情。
It does it does the same thing again, again, again, again.
人类作家总会在一章或一个段落结束时，想：好吧。
A human writer will will always, at the end of a chapter or the end of a section, just going, okay.
我的读者现在感觉如何？
How is my reader feeling now?
这会不会太密集了？
Was that too dense?
我们需要来点轻松的处理吗？
Do we need a bit of lightness of touch?
真正的作者会想：接下来哪个情节能给读者带来惊喜？
The real author's going, what what what move would surprise my reader next?
接下来哪个情节能，你知道的，打动读者？
What move would, you know, move my reader next?
而AI想的是：下一个通常会出现的词是什么？
Well, AI is thinking, what word would normally come next?
它们只想着这个。
It's all they're thinking.
所以它在整个书中都没有变化。
And so it doesn't differentiate throughout the whole book.
这周我跟很多编辑和经纪人聊过，因为整个米亚·贝拉德事件的一部分是，有人把她的作品放进AI扫描工具，说哦，这有78%是AI写的，类似这样的说法。
So I've talked to a lot of editors and agents this week because part of this whole Mia Ballard story is, someone put all of her put this work through an AI, you know, scanner and said, oh, it's 78% AI or something like that.
我一个也没遇到使用那些AI检测工具的经纪人或出版商。
I didn't meet a single agent or publisher who uses one of those AI detection things.
他们依靠直觉，因为他们每天都在阅读和写作，很多人已经这样做了三四十年。
They use their gut because they're reading, writing all day, every day, and a lot of these people have been doing that for forty, thirty, twenty years.
我的意思是，这本来就是他们的日常工作。
I mean, it's it's it's just what they do.
他们完全能理解这一点。
They they absolutely understand it.
他们明白作家会使用各种陈词滥调，但他们能通过读五页文字就判断出来。
They understand that writers can use all of these cliches, but they get to a point where they can read five pages of text.
你知道的？
You know?
这真是
This is
是的。
yeah.
这对我来说行不通。
This is not working for me.
甚至连求职信、封面设计之类的东西都不行。
Even cover letters and, you know, cover art and and and things like that.
所以关于米娅·巴尔德这件事，现在很多人站出来为她辩护，说哦，不是这样的。
So the Mia Ballard thing, a lot of people have now come out in her defense and say, oh, no.
但你知道，如果你把《弗兰肯斯坦》放进AI生成器里，它会说这是100%的AI生成。
But, you know, if you put Frankenstein through an AI generator, it says it's a 100% Yeah.
还有所有这些玩意儿。
AI and all this all of this stuff.
看起来这显然是一个明确的案例：哈切特公司去找米娅·巴尔德，说我们怀疑这是AI生成的。
It seems that this is a fairly clear cut case that Hachette went to Mia Ballard and said, we suspect that this is AI generated.
她本人说过这句话。
She has said this is her quote.
她说：我写作小组里有人主动提出帮忙。
She said, someone in my writing group offered to help.
她已经写了一个初稿。
She'd done a draft.
是的。
Yeah.
我写作小组里有个人主动提出帮忙，并保证会认真完成。
Someone in my writing group offered to help and assured me she'd do a thorough job.
所以我相信了她。
So I trusted her.
在这个过程中，她还修改了很多措辞，并鼓励我更偏向诗意的表达，因为那是我的背景，我也听从了。
In the process, she also changed a lot of the wording and encouraged me to lean more poetic because that's my background, and I listened.
我在出版前本该再仔细通读一遍，这是我的疏忽。
I should have done one final careful pass before publishing, and that's on me.
她本质上是在说，我把稿子给了别人，他们用ChatGPT来编辑了。
Essentially, she's saying, I gave it to somebody else, and they used ChatGPT to edit it.
她之前出版过几本书，那些书似乎都没有使用AI辅助。
She's published previous books, which don't appear to have had AI assistance.
所以这非常、非常不同。
So this is very, very different.
所以哈切特公司把书全部销毁了。
So Hachette pulped it.
他们说我们不再出版这本书了。
They said we're not gonna publish it anymore.
在美国原本即将出版这本书的哈切特公司也撤回了。
Hachette in The US, which was about to publish it, has pulled it as well.
这是此类事件的首例。
And it's the first example of this happening.
这是主要出版商被欺骗，出版了一部由AI协助完成的小说的首例。
It's the first example of these major publishers being duped into doing an AI helped novel.
她正在采取法律行动，米娅·巴尔德，所以也许你会关注。
She's pursuing legal action, Mia Ballard, so may perhaps listen.
也许这一切背后完全有无辜的解释。
Perhaps it's there's an entirely innocent explanation for all of this.
而且，如果确实涉及了人工智能，这也不是世界上最大的罪行。
And certainly, if there was AI involved, it's not the biggest crime in the world.
我们不喜欢这样，但你知道，这件事被升级到这种地步，对她来说一定简直疯狂。
We don't like it, but it's you know, to have it escalated like this must be absolutely insane for her.
但这个自助出版的世界，我关注了很多自助出版群体，我觉得它们非常、非常、非常有趣。
But this world of self publishing, I follow lots of self publishing groups, I find them very, very, very interesting.
你可以看到他们中的恐慌，因为90%——当然，所有人类都在自己完成作品。
And and you can see the the panic amongst them because 90 well, certainly all the human beings are doing their own work.
你可以看到他们的恐慌，他们说：是的，但我有时会用Grammarly来帮我纠正语法。
You see the panic where they go, yeah, but I use Grammarly to help with my grammar sometimes.
因为如果你没有编辑或文字编辑，你知道，这是尽职尽责的表现。
Because if you don't have an editor or a copy editor, you know, you it's due diligence.
这就能说明是人工智能写的吗？
Does that mean it's AI?
而在另一方面，有些人会输入一个提示，去泡杯茶，回来时书已经写好了，他们一年能出版两百本书。
And on the other side of things, there are people who will type in a prompt, go and make a cup of tea, come back and they've got a book and they'll publish it and we'll do 200 books a year.
所以未来这些书不可能完全避开AI，因为如果不在传统出版体系内，人们总会使用各种工具来辅助自己。
So there's no way in the future that these books are gonna be AI free because people are gonna use tools to help them if if if they're not in traditional publishing.
因此，出版商有责任关注这些情况，我认为这其实是个好消息。
So it is beholden on publishers, and I think this is a good news story, to keep an eye out for these things.
自助出版的世界将面临困境，因为AI生成的内容实在太多了。
The the world of self publishing is going to be in trouble because there is so much AI stop.
我的意思是，这类内容多得不得了。
And it's I mean, there's so much of it.
但同时，人类的创造力也同样无处不在。
But there's so much human creativity out there as well.
所以我只是希望，所有自助出版的作者不要因为Mia Ballard这件事而气馁，因为这只是一个特例。
So I just I I just hope people who are self published are not disheartened by this whole Mia Ballard thing because it's one thing.
这件事已经被揭发了。
It was found out.
几乎所有读过这本书的人都能明显看出其中的问题。
It is obvious to almost everyone who has read this book what the situation is.
所以，这会是书店里出现大量AI书籍的开端吗？
So is this the start of a huge avalanche of AI books that are gonna be in your bookshops?
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我认为恰恰相反。
I think the exact opposite.
我认为这对出版业来说是一次真正的警醒。
I think there's a real kick up the backside for the publishing industry.
我想他们都惊呼：天哪。
I think they're all going, oh my god.
幸好是哈切特，而不是我们。
Thank god that was Hachette and not us.
我们是不是要迎来转折点了？
Are we coming to behold?
是的。
Yes.
我们现在只是
We're in the just
轻量级部队的指控。
Charges of the lightweight brigade.
是的。
Yeah.
我们还有另一件事，就是每个人都被指控使用AI，这又是另一回事。
We have another thing, which is everyone being accused of using AI, which is something different.
现在这已经成为一种可以击败任何人的手段。
And now it's become absolutely a thing that you can beat anyone with.
正如你所说，这些
And as you say, these
我真怕有人会这么说。
I'm dreading someone saying it.
我显然从未写过
I've obviously have never written
嗯，我当时在
Well, I was
写一篇关于AI的专栏，但我总在想，别人可能会突然说，你抄袭了这个想法之类的。
a column with AI, but I'm always thinking that someone can just turn it's like when someone turns around and say, oh, you've plagiarized this idea or something.
这就像如果你真的在意这些事，最糟糕的指控就是这些
It's like these the worst thing you can say if you really care about those
事情。
things.
正如我所说，这些检测工具根本不可靠。
Well, as I say, these detection things don't particularly work.
所以，把所有东西都拿去检测是没有意义的，因为它们会
So that's that's not that's not something, you know, there's there's no point putting everything through those because they'll be
每次注册时都带来一点麻烦，它们 kinda 就是骗局。
a little of drag every to sign up and get met know, they're they're kind of scam.
我不想说全部都是骗局，但很多确实有骗人的成分。
I don't wanna say they're all scams, but a lot of them are scams in their own way.
但我联系过一位经纪人，他有一位客户去年出版了一本书。
But I spoke to an agent who had a client who had a book out last year.
首部作品，处女作，这可是大事。
First book, debut books, a a really big deal.
在第一周，他们就被指控使用了AI生成的封面。
And in the first week, they were accused of having an AI front cover.
于是我跟他说，你的封面是AI做的，这在自助出版中可是个大问题。
So I said, your front cover is AI, which is a huge thing in self publishing.
是的。
Yeah.
有非常多AI生成的封面。
Lots and lots of AI front covers.
你知道，写作圈的人非常清楚，如果你希望得到保护，我们也会保护艺术家。
And, you know, the the writing community are very good at understanding that if you want to be protected, we also protect artists.
因此他们对此非常反对。
And so they're very, very against it.
所以当时引发了巨大的争议。
So there there was this huge sort of uproar.
幸运的是，对于这位作者来说，真正绘制了那张封面、却被指控为AI生成的插画师，录制了她作画过程的延时摄影。
Fortunately, for this author, the actual illustrator who had drawn that front cover that people were accusing of being AI had done a time lapse photography of her drawing it.
天哪。
Oh my god.
所以她有确凿的证据证明是自己画的。
So she had absolute proof of doing it.
但未来，由于AI的发展方式，公众真正关心的是：出版业是否能完全不依赖人类，自己生成IP，交给自由撰稿人写出来，然后独占所有权益。
But in future, because this is the way that AI this is the way that public genuinely, the only thing that really publishing is really think about AI is can they come up with their own IP without having to involve human beings, give it to a jobbing writer, have it written, and then own all of everything.
对吧？
Right?
比如《我的牛津一年》，就是由出版商朱莉娅·惠登构思的，她是一位出色的作家，亲自撰写了这本书，你知道吗？
So something like My Oxford Year, it was come up with by the publisher, Julia Whaden, who's an amazing writer, wrote it and you know?
但出版商在这类作品中拥有的权益，远比以往多得多。
But the publisher owns an awful lot more of that than they would
是的。
Yeah.
如果朱莉娅·惠登主动来找他们的话。
If if Julia Whaden had come to them.
所以，如果你是一个出版商，坐在家里用AI，它给你生成了《火星救援》这样的项目，是吧。
So if you are a publisher and you sit at home with AI and it comes up with project hail Mary for you Yeah.
比如，那就是
For example, which is
安迪·威尔的那本书。
The Andy Weir book.
这是本周全球最畅销的书。
Biggest selling book in the in the in the world this week.
它为你生成了这本书。
So it comes up with that for you.
你把它交给一位作家，然后你就拥有了《火星救援》这个项目。
You give it to a writer, and suddenly you own project hail Mary.
所以我一直在出版界听到这种说法，他们会真的这么做，对吧？
And so I keep hearing this in publishing that they would just do that, wouldn't they?
他们会跳过原创者。
They they would cut out the originator.
但让我们回到延时摄影的例子。
But and we go back to that time lapse photography.
如果这种情况发生，比如《星际救援》是AI的作品，出版商想出了这个点子，然后交给作家，结果成了大热之作。
If that happened, say project Hail Mary was an AI thing and the publisher sort of came up with it, gave it to a writer, comes out as a huge hit.
我会说，我不太相信，我想知道你是怎么想出这个点子的，因为你不像是能想出好主意的人。
I go, I don't think, I'd like to know how you came up with that publisher because you don't you're you're not somebody who comes up with good ideas.
你到底是怎么想到的？
How how did you come up with it?
他们就会说，哦，我只是突然想到了。
And they go, oh, I just thought of it somehow.
不可能。
No.
我需要证据，因为如果真的是AI想出了这个点子，如果AI创造了《星际过客》这样的项目，出版商并不会拥有它。
I need proof because if AI does come up with it, if AI came up with a project Hail Mary, the publishers would not own it.
AI想出的东西是无法享有版权的。
There is no copyright in something that AI came up with.
所以我会直接去创作《星际过客2》。
So I'll just go and do project Hail Mary two.
这很简单。
That's easy.
而别人也会去创作《星际过客3》。
And someone else does does project Hail Mary three.
因此，正如我所说，在这场飓风过后，当我们重建这个行业时，我们必须找到一种方式来证明这些创意确实源自我们自己。
So this thing of we are going to have to be in a position, as I say, as we rebuild this industry after this hurricane has blown through, where we find a way to prove that we originate our own ideas.
我要让GoPro帮我写我的专栏。
Gonna work GoPro to write my column.
但人们会
But people will
那会根本没法看。
That would be unwatchable.
我这辈子见过不少没法看的东西，但那绝对能和盖·里奇最差的作品相提并论。
I've seen some unwatchable things in my life, but that would be up there with, you know, some of the worst of Guy Ritchie.
但我们需要一个简单的、可靠的软件，能够证明两点：第一，是我们提出了这个创意；第二，是我们亲自写出来的。
But with a simple we we we're going to need a simple piece of blue chip software that is able to show to prove that, a, we came up with an idea, and then, b, that we wrote it.
现在我觉得自己非常幸运。
And now I'm I've I feel very fortunate.
前几天我跟所有这些作家聊过，他们都说：天哪。
All these writers I've talked to the other day said, my god.
幸好我在这一切发生之前就开始写作了。
Thank god I started writing before this all came out.
你知道的。
You know?
我刚和李·查德聊过。
I was talking to Lee Child.
他说，太好了。
He goes, thank god.
我的意思是，他说他在AI出现之前就已经写完了所有书。
I I mean, he said he'd written all of his books before AI came out.
他说，我从来不用担心这个问题。
He goes, I I I never have to worry about it.
但如果你现在是个年轻作家，你整个职业生涯都将不断被问到这个问题。
But if you're a younger writer now, you are absolutely gonna have to answer this constantly throughout your whole career.
所以，就像插画师用延时摄影那样，只是说：看，这是我画的。
And so just some way, like the illustrator with the time lapse photography is just saying, here is me drawing it.
我们也需要一个东西来证明：看，这是我写的。
We are gonna have to have a thing that says, here is me writing it.
出版社必须接受这一点。
A publisher is gonna have to accept that.
出版社必须签署法律文件，确认：是的。
The publisher is gonna have to sign legally to say, yes.
你也是这么做的。
You did that as well.
或者如果他们给你一个东西，他们必须签署一份声明，说我没有使用AI来创作这个。
Or if they give you a thing, they are gonna have to sign something to say, I didn't use AI to come up with this.
但我确实认为，在这个领域里，我们想要的是人类。
But I do think this is one world where we we want human beings.
所以我们只需要找到一种小方法，一个小小的黄金标准，来证明这是人类创作的。
And so we'll just find a little way, a little gold standard of of how to say human made.
就像你去国家名胜信托商店时，会看到一小罐果酱，制作它的人会在上面签名。
Like, when you go to a National Trust gift shop, you know, and there's a little pot of jam, and the the person who made it signs it.
你知道的？
You know?
这是一篇手工艺风格的报纸专栏。
It's an artisan newspaper column.
艺术正是如此。
Art is exactly that.
正是如此。
Exactly that.
我可以再提一个哲学观点吗？
Can I make one more philosophical point?
可以。
Yes.
也就是说，AI行业偷走了每个人的书籍。
Which is the AI industry I mean, it stole everyone's books.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以是的。
So Yeah.
Anthropic和OpenAI，你知道的，抓取了每个人的书籍，并将它们用于自己的大型语言模型。
Anthropic and OpenAI, it, you know, scraped everyone's books and, you know, has used them in in in their large language models.
一些作家仍然觉得，AI所做的是思考，这将是我们写作书籍的绝佳方式。
There is a feeling amongst some writers still that what AI is doing is thinking, this is gonna be a brilliant way for us to write books.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我们有这么多书，可以复制它们，然后写出我们自己的版本。
We've got all these books so we can copy them, and we can do our own versions of books.
但这从来就不是AI的目标。
And that was that's never been the game for AI at all.
他们抓取我们所有书籍的原因，只是想要一个庞大且结构良好的句子库。
The the reason they scraped all of our books is because they just wanted a huge repository of fairly well constructed sentences.
他们根本不是在想：天哪，我们能写书了，因为写书根本赚不到钱。
They're not in the business of, oh my god, we can write books here, because there is no money in books.
但如果你看看AI正在进入并将继续进入的领域——医疗、航运、保险，这些价值数万亿美元的产业。
But if you look at the that AI can be going into and are and are going into, you know, medicine, shipping, all of these things, insurance, these things that are multi multi trillion dollar industries.
至于书籍，他们根本不关心。
Books, they don't care.
他们只是利用了我们。
They used us.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
他们只是利用了我们的文字，好让AI学会如何写邮件，然后就转身离开了。
They used us just for our words, just so they can train people how to write emails, and then they moved on.
但他们留下了一堆烂摊子，我们必须去处理。
But they've left a mess behind them, which we're gonna have to deal with.
这里的‘我们’指的是出版商、作家和自出版作者。
And by we, I mean publishers, writers, self published authors.
但我认为我们能够应对这个问题。
But I think we can deal with it.
事实就是如此。
That's the truth of it.
读者想要阅读由人类撰写的文字。
Readers want to read stuff written by human beings.
人类仍然希望撰写书籍。
Human beings still want to write books.
出版商也希望支持这一行业。
Publishers want to support that industry.
所以，像Anthropic和OpenAI这样的公司，我们还是要起诉他们。
So the anthropics and open AIs of this world, we're still gonna sue them.
别担心这件事。
Don't worry about that.
他们确实窃取了我们的成果。
They're absolutely they've stolen from us.
如果你担心的是，是的，AI写小说的能力会越来越强，很快就会让人无法分辨，但这似乎并不是AI的发展方向。
If you're worried that, yeah, but it's gonna get better and better at writing novels and soon they're gonna be indistinguishable, that doesn't seem to be the direction that AI is going in.
AI的卖点是准确、简洁和乏味。
AI, its selling point is to be accurate and concise and boring.
它的卖点并不是激进、独特和富有创造力。
Its selling point is not to be radical and different and creative.
因为航运物流行业并不需要他们的大语言模型具备这些特质，所以这当中没有钱可赚。
That's there's no money in that because the shipping logistics industry don't want that from their LLMs.
OpenAI和Anthropic对书籍并不感兴趣。
OpenAI, Anthropic, they're not interested in books.
这又是我们的事业，作为整个行业，我们可以继续前进，打造一些真实、真诚、富有人性的东西，人们可能会因为发生的一切而更加珍视它们。
It's our business again, and we as an industry can just get on, and we can build something that is real and true and human and that people will, I think, value even more because of what's happened.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我接下来的案例研究中有一些不同的观点要提。
Well, I like I've got a couple of counterpoints to that in my next case study.
这说的是马特·古德温的事。
This is the business about Matt Goodwin.
我来给你讲讲马特·古德温的正面经历。
I'll give you a positive history of who Matt Goodwin is.
他过去是，我的意思是，我不确定他现在是否还自称是学者。
He is used to I mean, I don't know if he still calls himself an academic.
他曾经是一名学者。
He used to be an academic.
他曾经与另一位杰出的学者罗布·福特合著了一本非常有趣的学术著作，书名叫《右翼的反抗》，2014年出版的。
He actually co wrote a really interesting book in a research book with another academic who's great called Rob Ford called Revolt on the Right, and that came out in 2014.
顺便说一下，如果你当时读过这本书，基本上就能预测到英国脱欧会发生。
By the way, if you read that book at the time, you could basically essentially predict that Brexit was going to happen.
这真的很有趣。
It was really interesting.
它从分析的角度探讨了有多少选民已经脱离了传统的投票基础，从而为这种现象提供了可能性。
Was like an analytical look at how so many there have been so many unmoorings from traditional kind of voter bases that there was a potential for that.
无论如何，从那以后，他的政治立场有了一点右倾，尽管现在这种方向是否还有意义也难说了。
Anyway, since then he's been on a little bit of a journey rightward, if those directions still make any sense anymore.
他开设了一个政治类的Substack账号。
He's got a sub stack, a political sub stack.
他在最近的戈顿和登顿补选中参选了。
He stood in Gorton and Denton in the recent by election
他输了。
he lost
改革党。
reform.
他输给了绿党。
He lost to the Greens.
他有时被称为改革派的内部知识分子。
He's sometimes described as reforms in house intellectual.
无论如何，他最近又自费出版了一本书，书名叫《国家的自杀》，副标题是移民、伊斯兰与身份认同，我觉得这很有趣，就在过去几周内刚出版的。
Anyway, he published, self published again, which I think is interesting, recently, just really recently, last couple of weeks, a book called Suicide of a Nation with the subtitle immigration Islam identity.
他说这本书卖得非常好，因为在亚马逊上排名第二之类的。
And he is saying that it's selling amazingly because it's number two on Amazon or something like that.
现在它已经进入了杰米·奥利弗食谱书的行列。
It's now in the realm of Jamie Oliver Cookbooks.
好吧。
Okay.
挑战。
Challenge.
并不是。
It's not.
这根本不是空气炸锅，他心里清楚。
This is not the air fryer and he knows it.
需要引用来源。
Citation needed.
需要引用来源。
Citation needed.
一位名叫安迪·特韦尔斯的政治作家提出，这本书是人工智能生成的，至少在某种程度上是AI生成的。
Okay, so a political writer called Andy Twelves has suggested that this book is AI generated and it's got sort of or to some degree AI generated.
书中还编造了西塞罗、李维等人的引言，他们应该庆幸还有人谈论他们，但不管怎样。
It's got made up quotes from like Cicero, Livvy, I mean they should be glad people are still talking about them, but anyway.
顺便说一句，很多故事根本无法当真，所以对过去一周里认真对待这本书的各位表示歉意。
Some of them by the way, a lot of the stories simply cannot take it seriously, so apologies for all the people who've been taking it very, very seriously for the last week.
书中还存在人工智能幻觉、ChatGPT的引用等问题。
And that there are AI Hallucinations in it, and ChatGPT sourcing and so on.
他还给这本书起了个宏大的绰号——‘马特GPT’，抱歉，这就像那些特朗普式的绰号，一听就觉得太棒了，可惜我现在只能用这种方式来想这个人了。
He did come up with this epic nickname, Matt GPT, which I'm sorry, it's just like one of those Trump ones, it's like oh, it's so good, unfortunately, I can only think of this person in his way now.
总之，安迪·特威尔斯向他发起了辩论，也许是马特·古德温向他发起了辩论，这场辩论发生在周五晚上的GB新闻频道。
Anyway, Andy Twelfth challenged him to a debate, maybe Matt Goodwin challenged him to a debate, which happened on Friday night on GB News.
我知道我以前用过这个例子，但我记得在90年代看过一档美国约会节目，主持人问那位女士：‘你喜欢什么样的男人？’
I know I've used this quote before, but I remember in the 90s watching a dating show, an American dating show, and they said to the woman, What sort of men do you like?
她回答说：‘我喜欢在酒吧打架的男人。’
And she said, I like men who fight in bars.
我当时就想，天啊，好吧，我喜欢那些在新闻频道上向对方发起辩论的男人。
I remember thinking, Oh my god, okay, I like men who challenge each other to debates on news channels.
在电视新闻上。
On TV news.
排队吧，姑娘们。
Get in line girls.
我认为这场辩论明显是安迪·特威尔斯赢了。
And I think it was resoundingly won by Andy Twelfths.
我的意思是，根本没人看这些节目。
I mean, nobody really watches these things.
大概吧，所有那些内部的 yeah。
Probably, yeah, all the sort of inside Yeah.
华府圈的人会看。
Beltway people watch it.
但这一切的存在只是为了能被剪辑引用，这和我们正在讨论的内容有点关系。
But it exists like all of this stuff just to be clippable, which is kind of relevant to what we're talking about here.
明白吗？
Okay?
我非常关注这一点，而且我觉得我们会以这种方式谈论泰勒·弗兰基·保罗，马特·古德温只是在不断发帖。
What I am very much into, and I pretty much think we're gonna talk about Taylor Frankie Paul in this way, Matt Goodwin's just posting through it.
明白吗？
Okay?
他并没有，而且大家都说，你应该知道，他们试图毁了我。
He's not and everyone's like, you should you know, they tried to destroy me.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
你得明白，他们试图毁掉我，但反而让我变得更强大了。
You have to they've tried to destroy me, they're making me stronger than ever.
我的书现在在亚马逊排行榜上位列第二，我待会儿想问问你，这到底是怎么回事。
My book's now at number two on the Amazon charts, which I'm gonna come to you in a second and ask you what on earth are Yeah.
但人们只是说，哦，你应该离开，好好想想。
But people have just been like, oh, should go away and think about it.
我确实看到一些自认为是有见识的思想家说，马特·古德温应该离开，认真反思一下这里发生的事。
I've seen, know, genuinely people who regard themselves as credible thinkers saying, you know, Matt Goodwin should go away and actually consider what's happened here.
这就像是，上升。
It's like, up.
明白吗？
Okay?
2026年。
2026.
是的
Yeah.
政治早已进入无耻时代。
Politics has been post shame forever.
明白？
Okay?
这对他是好事。
This is this is good for him.
明白？
Okay?
我真的很抱歉。
I'm I'm really sorry.
整个周末，人们都在说他被彻底摧毁了。
People have spent the whole weekend saying he's been totally destroyed.
胡说八道。
Rubbish.
好吧，你完全错了。
Okay, you're so wrong.
好吧，胡说八道。
Okay, nonsense.
好吧，有趣的是，右翼已经大量吸收了左翼在网上的那些做法，比如左翼那种网络受害者的姿态，所有这些原本显然是左翼特有的。
Okay, it's really interesting how the right has taken so much of what the left did in terms of online stuff like the left were, you know, that kind of online victimhood, all of that, which was originally definitely very much preserved the left.
白人现在只是拿过这些东西并加以武器化。
The white have now just taken that weaponized it.
他们在这方面厉害多了。
They're so much better at it.
这到底是一本什么书？
What even is this book?
我记得我大儿子还很小的时候，才三个月大，他有一本布书，讲的是一只猴子，会吱吱叫，会沙沙响，诸如此类。
I remember when my eldest son was tiny, like three months old, he had a cloth book, something about a monkey, know, it squeaked, it crinkled, blah blah blah.
而且
And
我记得当时想，天哪，这小子居然已经有书了。
I remember thinking, oh my gosh, this fuck, like he's got a book already.
然后突然醒悟，我在说什么啊？
And then it's like, wake up, what are talking about?
这根本不是书，就是一个有页码的玩具。
It's not a book, it's like a paginated toy.
明白吗？
Okay?
它就只是有一些这样的东西。
It's just got some things like this.
这才是书的真正样子。
That's what books are.
是的。
Yeah.
马特·古德温写的这本书，并不是那种长篇大论，甚至不像莉兹·特拉斯那种‘让我们拯救西方’之类的东西。
What Matt Goodwin has written, he hasn't written one of these treatises, even something like Liz Truss's say, let's save the West.
根本不是那样的。
It's nothing like that.
它只是面向Facebook的受众，我的意思是，这个群体年龄偏大，这不过是一份分页的网络内容。
It is just it's aimed at the Facebook audience, which I mean skews older, if I can put that like, and it's a paginated piece of Internet.
就是这样。
That's all.
它不必和你心目中所谓的书一样。
It doesn't have to be the same as what you think some whatever book is.
这个周末我去陪父母，你知道的，像那个年代的很多人一样，他们会在墙上的座机旁边贴一些常用号码。
I I went sit with my parents this weekend and, you know, like many people of that generation, net up next to the landline on the wall is useful numbers.
比如我、我姐妹、全科医生，还有不错的马克出租车。
And it's, you know, me, my sisters, the GP, you know, nice Mark Taxi
是的。
Yeah.
大卫·海尔，不是那位剧作家，是大卫在
David Hare, not the playwright, it's David in
哦，现在谁负责发型？
Oh, who does the hair now?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
雷·普卢默，你知道的，有用的号码。
Ray Plummer, you know, useful numbers.
雷·普卢默，那位剧作家。
Ray Plummer, the playwright.
是的。
Yeah.
有用的号码。
Useful numbers.
这本书就是一些有用的号码。
This is just useful numbers, this book.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
很有用，我甚至不知道这些数字是否真实，但人们并不在意它们是否真实。
It's useful I don't even know if they're true, but people don't mind about them being true.
这是我的反驳观点。
This is my counterpoint.
几年后，没人会在意这个。
No one is going to care about this in a few years'
这可不是出版业。
This is not the book industry.
当然不是，但这只是个随意的提纲。
No way, but it's just a random outline.
这不是那些购买这类产品的人，他们可能每年也会买几本小说。
This is not someone who buy the people who are buying this, they may also buy some novels a year.
我不知道他们到底买不买。
I don't know whether they do or don't.
我怀疑大概不会。
I I suspect probably not.
这是完全不同的受众。
It's a different type of audience.
这是他们在水石书店可能会卖的一种东西，就像他们可能会卖各种游戏、玩具、卡牌和成批的邮票一样。
It's one of the things they might sell in Waterstones a bit like they might sell all the games and the toys and the packs of cards and the bulk books of stamps.
这是一种有页码的印刷品。
It's a thing it's a paginated piece
信息的载体。
of information.
你知道，马特·古德温如今靠马特·古德温谋生，就像这个时代这么多其他人一样。
You know, Matt Goodwin's living is Matt Goodwin now as so many people in this era.
所以他每天早上醒来时的工作就是：我知道上个月赚了多少钱。
So his job, when he wakes up every morning, is I know how much money I've earned last month.
我大概有个数，因为我有这么多粉丝在Substack上关注我，流失率很低。
I've got a rough idea because I've got this amount of people following me on Substack, there's not much churn.
我对下个月能赚多少也有个大致的预期。
I've rough idea of how much I'm making next month.
我到哪里去弄点额外的现金？
Where do I get some extra cash?
你看。
Look.
我会做这本书，而且again，他并不认为这会让我赚到数百万。
I'll do this book because and again, he's not thinking this is the thing that's gonna make me millions.
他只是觉得，这是我要做的下一件事。
He's just thinking of this is the next bit of what I do.
你懂的？
You know?
这只不过是另一种方式，来将我所做的事情变现。
It's just just it's just another way of of of monetizing what I do.
所以你写一本书，把它发布出去，希望它能大火，获得大量关注。
So you do a book and you put it out there and you hope that it blows up and people give you lots of publicity.
他并不在意卖了多少本，从这本书里赚不了多少钱，但他能获得很多
Not looking at how many he sold, he's not gonna make a huge amount of money out of it, but he's getting lots
但这不会成为一本像杰米·奥利弗那样的烹饪书。
of It is not gonna be a Jamie Oliver Cook book.
我现在就告诉他这一点。
Let me tell him that right now.
哦，不会的。
Oh, no.
但他心里清楚。
But he knows that.
他确切知道卖出了多少本。
He he knows exactly how many they've sold.
他知道这一点。
He knows that.
所以今天下午，我们会看到尼尔森的销售数据，是的。
So this afternoon, we'll get the Nielsen ratings Yeah.
尼尔森数据能告诉你通过亚马逊和所有正规书店实际卖出了多少本书，如果你的网站也获得了尼尔森认证的话。
Which tell you actually how many books you've sold through Amazon and through all the normal bookstores, and if your website, you know, has has has Nielsen accreditation as well.
你能解释一下亚马逊排行榜到底意味着什么吗？
Can you explain to what the Amazon chart actually means?
亚马逊排行榜，我记得你提到过，这本书是本周英国销量第六好的书。
Amazon chart, I saw a thing where you said it's the sixth best selling book in The UK this week.
因为它是亚马逊排行榜上的第六名。
By virtue of it being sixth on the Amazon chart.
我看了亚马逊的网站。
And I looked at Amazon.
实际上它在亚马逊上排第三。
It was actually number three on Amazon.
我说过，你可以说第三名。
I said, you could you could could say third.
亚马逊排行榜每三到四小时更新一次，它只是告诉你你的书在任何给定时间的排名。
The Amazon chart updates every three hours, four hours sometimes, and it just tells you where your book is at any given time.
所以，如果你排第六，或者公平地说，他在亚马逊排行榜上是第三名，那只是意味着在四小时内的某个零售商中排第三，仅此而已。
So if you're number six or, let's be fair, he was number three on the Amazon chart, you are number three on one retailer for a four hour period, and that is it.
这并不是说它是本周最畅销的书之类的东西。
This is not this is not the best selling books of the week or anything like that.
但下周，我们会确切地说出它卖出了多少本。
But next week, we will say exactly how many it sold.
但AI这件事其实更有趣。
But the AI thing is is sort of more interesting.
所以我在巴雷特的观点，希望这能成为一条分水岭，作为整个小说写作行业，我们可以从此开始发展。
So me at Ballard, I hope it's a line in the sand and as a industry, as as a fiction and novel writing industry, we can grow from there.
马特·古德温这件事，表明了如今的书籍与三十年前确实不同。
The Matt Goodwin thing, it shows how actually books now as you say, thirty years ago, was different.
当时确实有些声望，天啊，他出版了自己的论著。
There was there was some prestige and, oh my god, he's published his treatise.
而现在，他并不是靠Substack赚钱，而是靠人们听他发表的言论来赚钱。
And now it's just it's not that he Matt is making his money from Substack, and he's making money from people, you know, hearing whatever he's he's having to say.
正如他所说，他一直在通过这种方式发布内容。
And as he said, he's posting through it.
是的。
Yes.
但这是那个内容的打印版本。
But and this is a printed out version of that.
对。
Yeah.
通过这种方式发布内容。
Posting through it.
你觉得他这样，而我对他的了解还不够多。
Do you think with him and I don't know enough about him.
你知道关于L·罗恩·贺伯特和山达基教的事吗？他原本是个科幻作家，是的。
Know You the thing with l Ron Hubbard and Scientology, that he was a sci fi writer Yeah.
他以前写过关于邪教之类的东西，然后突然间醒悟了。
And would write about cults and things like that, and suddenly went, hold on.
如果他真搞了个邪教，这里面似乎有相当多的钱。
There seems to be quite a lot of money
是的。
Yeah.
如果他真搞了个邪教，这里面的钱可不少。
In this if he did have a cult.
你知道，他写过那本书，正如你所说，那本书备受尊重，但他也看清了网上右翼、煽动者以及其中潜藏的商机。
You know, having written that book, which as you say, super well respected, but understanding what was happening online with the right and the agitators and the money there was to be made.
他会不会也想过：听好了，我当学者可是拼了命地工作，我知道自己该拿多少报酬。
Did a bit of him just go, I mean, listen, I work really, really hard being an academic, and I know what to get paid.
我觉得这里可能有赚钱的机会。
I I feel like there might be money here.
是的。
Yeah.
还有罗布·福特，他和他合著了这本书，但现在却成了他的死敌，他仍然留在对方阵营中，比如在选举当天会和约翰·柯蒂斯待在一起，参与制定出口民调，这真的很有趣。
And Rob Ford, who wrote it with him and is now sort of like his mortal foe, and he remains in the camp with, you know, he'll go in the room with John Curtis all the day of the election and he'll be one of the people who creates the exit poll, and you know, it's really interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种分裂，我认为他们从一开始就未必在政治立场上一致。
It's a sundering of I don't think they were necessarily ever politically in the same place at all.
事实上，他们并不一致。
In fact, they weren't.
但尽管如此，他们还是凭借这种严谨的态度和研究合作写出了这本书，然后，十二年后，情况就变了。
But nonetheless, they combined with that kind of discipline and the research to write this book, and then, yeah, in twelve years.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实是历史学中不同的分支。
It's, yeah, different different branches of history.
总之，下一期播客会公布马特·古德温这本书的最终评分。
Anyway, next week's podcast will give you the the final scores on the doors for for for Matt Goodwin's book.
我们休息一下吧？
Shall we go to a break?
休息之后我们还会谈到有人在持续发布相关内容。
We'll be talking about someone posting through it after the break as well.
我的天啊。
My god.
她真的在持续发布。
She's posting through it.
她一直在发布。
She's posting
发布得太多了。
through it so much.
是的。
Yeah.
而且最棒的是，这件事不在我们国家发生，除非你在美国，那样的话，我们有个坏消息。
And also and the best thing about it is, it's not in our country, unless you're in America, in which case, we have bad news.
是的。
Yeah.
但你已经面临这么多坏消息了。
But you've got so much bad news.
对。
Yeah.
这其实已经是其中比较轻松的部分了。
This is actually a light part of it.
本集节目由Bumble赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by Bumble.
现在有一种现代现象，当有人说他们在使用交友软件时，其实他们的意思是：他们下载了软件，打开过一次，然后立刻就感到疲惫了。
Now there's a modern phenomenon when someone says they're on the apps, but what they actually mean is they downloaded them, opened them once, and then immediately felt tired.
所以技术上算是在使用软件，但实际上根本没怎么用。
So technically on the apps, but nowhere near them.
制作和更新约会资料可能会出奇地让人疲惫。
Making and updating a dating profile can be weirdly exhausting.
太多选择，太多压力，让你必须展现出最好的自己。
Too many decisions, too much pressure to come across as the best version of yourself.
这时候，Bumble 就派上用场了。
Well, that's where Bumble comes in.
他们不是要求人们从零开始塑造一个人格，而是提供个性化指导，帮助你展现真实的自我。
Instead of asking people to produce a personality from scratch, they give you personalized guidance on how to help show the authentic you.
而且不是那种命令式的语气。
And not in a bossy way.
更像是：你本身就很有趣，只是我们把镜头对准对的方向。
More in a, you're already interesting, but let's point the camera in the right direction.
而且那些提示问题也更好了。
And the prompts are better too.
不再是‘我喜欢旅行’，而是‘我曾经因为逗狗而错过了火车。’
Less I like travel, more I once missed the train because I was petting a dog.
一些能让别人回应并引发对话的内容。
Something someone else can respond to and spark conversations from.
因为当个人资料真实反映一个人的性格时，对话就不会显得是闲聊。
Because when a profile actually reflects someone's personality, conversations don't feel like small talk.
它们自然流畅，而且感觉有方向。
They flow and they feel like they're going somewhere.
今天就下载Bumble，展现更真实的自己，看看为什么它往往是人们从朋友那里听说的应用。
So download Bumble today, show more of the real you, and see why it tends to be the app people hear about from friends.
我喜欢那种因为摸狗而错过火车的人的想法。
I like the idea of someone missing a train because they were petting a dog.
这挺吸引人的，对吧？
Well, it's involving, isn't it?
对吧？
Isn't it?
我完全被吸引了。
I'm engrossed.
欢迎回来，各位。
Welcome back, everybody.
现在我应该说，就在我们录制的过程中，传来消息说斯科特·米尔斯因个人行为问题被BBC广播二台解雇了。
Now I should say, just as we've been recording, the news has come through that Scott Mills has been sacked from, Radio two over his personal conduct.
我们目前对此一无所知，但我们会关注事态如何发展。
We obviously know nothing about that yet, but we will, we will, see how that develops.
但，是的，这恰恰就在我们录制时刚刚发生。
But, yeah, that's, that's literally just happened as we're as as we are recording it.
感觉这将会成为一个大新闻。
It feels like that's gonna be a a big story.
市场正在发展。
Market is developing.
对。
Yeah.
现在我们来谈谈一位名叫泰勒·弗兰基·保罗的女士。
Now we are talking about a lady called Taylor Frankie Paul.
这个名字怎么排列都行。
One of those names that you could do in any order.
仍然可以叫保罗·弗兰基·泰勒。
There's still be a name Paul Frankie Taylor.
听起来像是杜兰杜兰乐队的贝斯手。
Sounds like a bassist from Duran Duran.
她可能需要改一下名字。
She may need to change it.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
You may indeed.
对于那些不熟悉她作品的听众，请允许我说，过去十天里，她给美国娱乐业造成了超过一亿美元的损失。
Please, for those of our listeners who are not familiar with her work, I would say she has cost the American entertainment industry over a $100,000,000 in the last ten days.
当然。
For sure.
我想我是这么以为的，是的。
I think that is I I I would have thought yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以这很有趣。
So it's interesting.
迪士尼任命了新的首席执行官乔什·达马罗，他刚刚上任。
Disney has a new chief exec, Josh D'Amaro, who's just taken over.
他来自乐园部门。
He's he's come from the parks division.
是的。
Yeah.
那个非常成功且利润丰厚的乐园部门。
The very, very successful and lucrative parks division.
他不得不踏入娱乐业这片复杂的水域，因为就在他上任的第二天，就爆发了关于《单身汉》新一季开播的巨大丑闻。
He's having to slum it in the complex waters of entertainment because on something like his second day in the job, this huge scandal erupted involving the start of the new completed season of The Bachelorette.
《单身汉》是一个基于《爱情岛》的节目，你知道的，就是要找到真爱。
The Bachelorette is a show based on The Bachelor where, you know, someone has to find love.
他们得从30位追求者中做出选择。
They've gotta choose through 30 different suitors.
而且
And
这节目超级火爆。
And it's insanely huge.
在美国。
In America.
这已经是第二十五季左右了。
This is, like, season twenty five or something.
这是一种比较老旧、略显过时的真人秀形式。
It's a it's an older sort of creaking reality format.
它源自2000年代初期。
It's from the sort of naughties.
它一直可以追溯到那个时代。
It goes all the way back to that.
泰勒·弗兰基·保罗，他们选她作为这一季的《单身女郎》，就是为了复兴这个老旧的节目，她就是泰勒·弗兰基·保罗。
Taylor Frankie Paul, The Bachelorette they cast for this series because they wanted to kind of revive that old creaking franchise, is Taylor Frankie Paul.
现在
Now
所以在《单身女郎》里，有一位女性和一整群追求者。
So so in The Bachelorette, there is one woman and there are a whole series of suitors.
是三十个男人吧，他们会去约会，你知道的，诸如此类。
Is that 30 guys and they'd go on dates, you know, blah blah.
你得做出选择
You gotta choose
与找到真爱相反的事实。
The opposite of the fact you find true love.
所以你选的人，经常是临时安排的，通常是从另一方来的，也就是之前季里当过追求者的人。
So the person you cast, quite often stunt casting, quite often someone who's been on the other side, you know, who's been one of the suitors in in previous seasons.
把人从这个模式中带出来，是的。
Bring people out of the format Yeah.
因为就是这样。
Because it's that's
这才是关键所在。
how the huge deal.
你承载着整个季度、整个节目的重量。
You're carrying that entire season of that entire show.
他们选择泰勒·弗兰基·保罗，是因为他们早就和她建立了关系，因为
And they choose Taylor Frankie Paul because they already have a relationship with her because of
因为一个新推出的真人秀模式，我想已经播了三季了。
Because of a new reality format that's been going, I think, three seasons.
它两年前开播的。
It started two years ago.
它取得了巨大的成功。
It's an absolute mega success.
它叫做《摩门妻子的隐秘生活》。
It's called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
它有点像《主妇》系列，但有所不同，而且完全在迪士尼的旗下。
It's kind of like a Housewives thing but a different it's all under the Disney aegis.
这是Hulu的节目。
It's a Hulu show.
所以他们
So they
这个节目大获成功。
And that think is a runaway hit.
她是最突出的明星，以其混乱却无戏剧性的风格著称。
And she is the standout star, you know, with her chaos and no drama.
出于我们原本要讨论的原因。
For reasons we were going to.
是的。
Yeah.
而且他们以为我们会交叉参与，顺便说一句，真人秀已经变成了这种样子。
And they they think we'll cross the streams because and by the way, reality TV has become that sort of a thing.
英国人最初对《叛徒》的美国版表示不满，因为那些参与者都参加过多个不同的真人秀节目。
British people complain about the American version of traitors when it first came out because they had all been on multiple different reality formats.
在过去，就像我们以前讨论过的那样，你不可能让一个参加过《我是名人》的人
And in the old days, which as we used to talk about, you couldn't have someone who'd been on I'm a Celebrity
是的。
Yeah.
再去参加《舞动奇迹》。
Then appear on Strictly.
现在这已经不重要了。
It doesn't matter anymore.
在真人秀里，你只需要轮番参加各个节目，实际上，参与的节目越多越好。
Reality TV, you just do the rounds of the shows and actually it's better to accrue kind of more clouds.
你成了专业的真人秀明星。
You become a professional reality show.
我的意思是，泰勒·弗兰基·保罗参加《单身女郎》这件事的前因，是另一档曾经辉煌但几年前已显疲态的娱乐电视节目。
I mean, so the antecedent for this happening for Taylor Frankie Paul being in The Bachelorette is another, big, big old behemoth of, entertainment television, which was creaking a few years ago.
那就是《与星共舞》，它曾经像之前提到的那样，风靡一时。
It was Dancing With The Stars, which is now was to be spoken of before, gone huge.
而在《与星共舞》上一季中，有两位来自《摩门妻子的秘密谎言》的成员出演。
And and Dancing With The Stars in the last season had two other members of The Secret Lies of Mormon Wives in the cast.
大家都非常喜欢。
Everybody loved it.
你看，这又是跨界的融合了。
Again, you're crossing the streams.
它取得了巨大的成功。
It was a huge success.
所以你在想，好吧。
So you're thinking, okay.
嗯，这似乎效果非常好。
Well, that seems to work beautifully.
我们有《单身女郎》。
We've got The Bachelorette.
它的表现并不理想。
It's not doing great.
我认为最近两季是有史以来收视率最低的。
I think the last two seasons have been the lowest rated seasons ever.
我们让《摩门妻子的秘密》中的人参加了《与星共舞》，取得了成功。
We have had success with The The Secret Lies people going on Dancing with the Stars.
大家都很喜欢那个。
Everyone seemed to like that.
我们有《单身女郎》这个节目，它需要一个非常非常核心的亮点，而实际上这才是推动这个节目的关键。
We have this thing, The Bachelorette, that needs a really, really strong presence at the heart of it, and actually that's what launches this show.
而且我们恰好在《摩门妻子的秘密》中有一位真正的 breakout 明星，就是泰勒·弗兰基·保罗，所以我们就选她吧。
And we also happen to have in The Secret Lies of Mormon Wives, like a real breakout star who is Taylor Frankie Paul, so let's cast her.
但在混乱发生之前，如果我们倒退一点看，为什么她会成为《摩门妻子的秘密》中如此重要的人物呢？
But if we rewind a little bit before the chaos comes about, why why was she such a huge part of the secret lies of Mormon Wise?
因为这个节目实际上是围绕她打造的。
Because it was built around her, really.
是的。
Yeah.
而且说实话，我几乎很难不剧透她后来的经历，因为从《摩门妻子的秘密生活》第一集一开始，就播放了一段警方执法记录仪的视频，显示她醉酒后被逮捕。
And I I mean, I almost find it quite difficult to talk about it without giving away what's happened to her because right from the very start, we in the very, very first episode of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, some police body cam footage is shown from an incident in which she's sort of being she's drunken and being arrested.
不过那段 footage 只是稍微展示了一下。
And there's just a little bit of it anyway.
而她后来声称自己面对了这些问题，谈到了重建自我、我已经做了很多功课之类的现代流行语。
And, you know, she confronts this supposedly and talks about rebuilding, and I've done the work and all these kind of modern phrases.
读者，她根本没做任何功课。
Reader, she had not done the work.
她根本没做任何功课。
She had not done the work.
所以整个故事的开端，是因为她开始搞这个‘妈妈谈话’节目，是的。
So she the whole thing starts because she she starts like this this mom talk thing Yeah.
妈谈。
M o m t.
好的。
Okay.
她开始讲述自己和摩门教社区其他人的生活片段。
Where she starts doing bits of her life and bits of, you know, life of other people in the Mormon community.
这让人感到惊讶，因为人们通常以为摩门教社区是什么样子，但实际上并非如此。
And it's quite surprising to people because, know, amongst the the, you know, the the things you would expect, it's not the state community you might think it is.
她的第一个争议是，她在做妈妈谈话内容时，开始谈论她和当时的丈夫，以及摩门教社区其他成员过着开放式关系的生活——也就是说，他们偶尔会交换性伴侣，结果所有人都震惊了，她的‘妈谈’也因此迅速走红。
And her first controversy is she's doing this mom talking stuff, and then she starts talking about how her and her husband at the time and other members of the Mormon community they lived in were soft swingers, which meant they, you know, they swapped sexual partners every now and again, and everyone's like, And her this mom talk really, really blew up at that point.
电视圈的人都在说：天哪。
And everyone in TV is going, holy moly.
你有了这样一群摩门教妻子。
You got so you got this community of Mormon wives.
所以，我们以为自己知道会看到什么，但实际上，这就像《真实主妇》系列，只是从一个完全意想不到的角度呈现。
So, you know, we we we we think we know what we're gonna get, but it's like it's a Real Housewives franchise, but from a really unexpected angle.
于是他们纷纷关注起泰勒·弗兰基·保罗发起的这个妈妈谈话话题。
And so they jumped on this mum talk thing that Taylor Frankie Paul had started.
《摩门教妻子的秘密生活》由此诞生，而她正是这一内容的开创者。
The secret lives of Mormon wives comes out of that, and she is its progenitor.
正如你所说，最开始发生的事情——这一切都源于此，确实引发了一场风波。
And as you say, the very, very first thing that happens, the fact that that it all comes from There is a charge.
总之，她被选中出演《单身女郎》的新一季。
Anyway, so she's cast in this new season of The Bachelorette.
她正在为《单身女郎》新一季进行宣传推广。
She is on the promotional tour for the new seasons about The Bachelorette.
节目已经完全制作完毕。
It's completely finished.
制作成本高达数千万美元。
It will have cost them tens of millions of dollars.
现在，像TMZ这样的八卦视频网站获得了一段泄露视频，正是那段导致警方介入的事件录像，而我们已经看到了
And what comes out now, TMZ, the sort of video razzi site gets given leaked a video, which is the video of the actual incident that led to that, the police being called, and then we've seen the
顺便说一下，这段视频我们并没有在《摩门妻子的隐秘生活》中看过。
And this is and this is not, by the way, a video that we have seen on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
没有。
No.
这是全新的内容，我们只是大致了解了一下。
This is this is this is new so we sort
这段视频足以让她被淘汰。
of This video is disqualifying.
这是她的视频。
This is a video of her.
她喝得酩酊大醉。
She's very she's really drunk.
她在和人激烈地争吵。
She's having some big domestic argument.
她把酒吧高脚凳扔向她的伴侣，也是她一个孩子的父亲。
She's throwing barstools at her on off partner and the father of one of her children.
她完全醉得不省人事。
She's completely wasted.
太糟糕了。
It's awful.
是的，真的挺
Yeah, it's really
糟糕的。
awful.
其中一把高脚凳砸中了她前夫的女儿，你听到她哭喊，而他却说：‘你连女儿都不管了’，而她正在哭泣。
One of the stools hits her daughter from the previous husband and you hear her cry and he says, You're not even going to your daughter, and she's crying.
现在，这段哭声被高管们视为一种无法逾越的恐怖，他们因此取消了整季的节目。
Now that cry is basically regarded as a sort of insurmountable horror for the executives, and they have pulled the entire season of the bat.
你不能——这真的很有趣。
You can't- it's really interesting.
这段视频里，显然我们生活在一个视频文化中。
A video there is we obviously we live in a video culture.
亲眼看到这一事件，有一种明显且难以逾越的病毒式传播效应。
There is something so kind of obviously viral and insurmountable about actually seeing the incident.
而且知道你所有的潜在观众都看过这一事件
And knowing that every single one of your potential viewers has seen that incident
也一样。
as well.
所以当你说到，天啊，谁会知道呢？
And so when you're but when you're saying, oh god, who knew?
我的意思是，你本该知道的，因为根本不是秘密，之前发生过导致警方伤亡的事件。
I mean, you should've because it's not a secret that there was something that led to the original police body count.
哦，顺便说一句，每个人都知道这个事件。
Oh, so everyone knew about this incident, by the way.
所以这件事已经被记录在他们的自有频道上，你知道的。
So this is this has been absolutely has been documented on, you know, their own channels.
所以你
So You
如果你只看到警察随身摄像头拍摄的那一点点片段，你很难保持客观立场。
can keep yourself at this or that if all you're seeing is the tiny bit of footage you've seen off the police body cam.
你被置于一种情境中，而这种情境正是你有时能在娱乐行业看到的场景。
Are put in a situation where and this this is where you see sometimes where you can really visualize a meeting in the entertainment industry.
所以他们开了一次会议，讨论的是：我们该如何应对《单身女郎》？因为它的播出时间可能所剩无几了。
So they have a meeting, and this meeting is what do we do about The Bachelorette because it probably doesn't have long left.
我们有没有办法挽救《单身女郎》？
Is there a way we can save The Bachelorette?
顺便说一下，我马上就要告诉你这让我想起了什么。
I'm And gonna tell you exactly what this reminds me of, by the way, in a moment.
我们该怎么挽救《单身女郎》？
How do we save The Bachelorette?
他们说：那泰勒怎么样？
And they go, well, How about Taylor?
因为《与星共舞》的俱乐部在哪里？
Because where is The Dancing With The Stars Club?
她是个教练。
She's a trainer.
她就是一团混乱。
She's chaos.
而且，你知道的，还有
And, you know, and also
别忘了她不在现场，他们就是这么想的。
Don't forget she's not in the room, this is how they'll be thinking.
当然。
Of course.
他们会给她一个救赎的弧线。
And they'll get redemption arc.
你知道吗，也许她找到了爱情。
You know, maybe she finds love.
也许这正是她一直需要的。
Maybe that's what she always needs.
而那个地方有人会说，是的。
And someone in that thing go, yeah.
但别忘了还有那个孩子的事。
But don't forget there were there's the thing with the kid.
我们知道那个
We know that that
嗯，他们知道有个警察的事。
Well, they know there's a police thing.
对。
Yeah.
哦，还有那个谜团，意思是
Oh, that you And there's a mystery mean,
一项认罪协议。
a battery guilty plea.
他们很好。
They're good.
你知道，但那些事呢？你知道，还有逮捕的事，而且我们也知道，这并不是她在《摩门智慧》前几季中做的最混乱的事。
You know, but what about the stuff, you know, the the the arrest and also we're we're aware, you know, it's not the last thing she's done that's been chaotic in the the first few seasons of Mormon Wise.
然后他们说，嗯，是的。
And they go, well, yeah.
不。
No.
我明白你的意思。
I know what you mean.
是的。
Yeah.
有趣的是，但我总觉得，你能想象当我们宣布的时候吗？
It's interesting that, but it just I sort of feel like, can you imagine when we announce?
我的意思是，你能想象当我们宣布的时候吗？
I mean, can you imagine when we announce it?
那肯定会引起巨大轰动，不是吗？
It's gonna be, like, huge, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
那么，我们是不是应该再深入了解一下？因为我对她的情况有点不安，万一她真的难以控制怎么办？
Well, should we do like, maybe look into it a bit more because I I'm I'm a tiny bit uncomfortable with her being because what if she is sort of uncontrollable?
说实话，我觉得《单身女郎》里的那些男生都挺不错的。
I think, honestly, you know the guys on The Bachelorette, they're pretty good.
我觉得他们应该能应付得来。
I think that they can they can probably handle it.
让我去跟《摩门智者》的一些制作人聊聊，他们也会说，是的。
Let let me talk to some of the Mormon Wise producers, and they're going, yeah.
听我说。
Listen.
她确实是个火爆的人物。
She's a firework for sure.
他们说：给我们讲讲那次逮捕的事。
And they go, tell us more about the arrest.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我觉得，也许那件事已经过去了一点。
I think that I think that maybe that's sort of in a in a past a little bit.
因为这也是他们的节目。
Because it's their show as well.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
这一切都是同一批人拥有的。
This is all owned this is all owned by the same people.
所以他们但它是但所以
And so they But it's But so
那些人没有正确传达情况，否则你就是在威胁自己的节目。
Those guys didn't properly relay the situation because otherwise, that that you're threatening your own show.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这太疯狂了。
I mean, it's crazy.
好吧，但不是这样。
Well but no.
但别忘了，摩门教的妻子们也在思考，因为它们几乎还像初创公司一样，充满激情。
But don't forget also Mormon wives are thinking because they're just, you know, they're almost like a start up still, and they're incredibly excited.
那个那个
That that
那就是我的意思。
that that's that's who I mean.
《与星共舞》的两位参赛选手，他们说：‘天哪。’
Two cast members on Dancing with the Stars, and they go, oh god.
现在我们要让泰勒上《单身汉》了。
Now we're gonna have Taylor on The Bachelorette.
这对每个人来说都太重要了。
This this is huge for everybody.
所以大家围坐在桌旁，都忍不住问：这样可以吗？
So everyone's got around the table, and everyone's kinda gone, is is this okay?
也许这样是可以的。
Maybe this is okay.
大家都问：这样真的可以吗？
And everyone's gone, oh, is it okay?
而且他们全都这样问：好吧，这样真的可以吗？
And the fact that they've all kinda gone, well, is it okay?
这个决定，似乎是在完全缺乏道德考量的情况下做出的？
The the decision is sort of made, sort of in absenture of any moral thinking whatsoever?
他们说，你知道吗？
And they go, you know what?
咱们就这么干吧。
Let's do it.
这正是导致彼得·曼德尔森成为美国大使的相同过程。
And it's exactly the same process that leads to Peter Mandelson being the US ambassador.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you think?
天哪。
Oh my god.
但每个人都说，哦，这本来能解决那边的一些问题，不是吗？
But everyone's going, oh, this would've solved some problems there, wouldn't it?
因为，你知道，我觉得特朗普和他相处得不错，他做的这些事真的那么糟吗？
Because, like, you know, I guess that Trump he'd be good with Trump, and is it really so bad, this stuff that he's done?
去问他关于爱泼斯坦的事。
And ask him the Epstein thing.
这样可以吗？
Is that is that okay?
大家都坐在桌旁说，也许这样可以。
And everyone sat around the table gone, may maybe it's okay.
没错。
Exactly it.
也许这样可以。
Maybe it's okay.
也许这样做是可以的。
Maybe it's okay to do that.
是的。
Yeah.
就像彼得·曼德尔森那样。
And like Peter Mandelson
工作？
the work?
是的。
Yeah.
他完成工作了吗？
Has he done the work?
也许还有更多要公布吗？
Maybe is it is there more to come out?
这里还有更多要公布吗？
Is there more to come out here?
我认为不会再有更多公布了。
I don't think there is more to come out.
不。
No.
我觉得会没事的。
I think I think it's gonna be fine.
而且这完全是同样的事情。
And it's exactly the same thing.
要是有人弄丢了那段手机视频就好了。
If only someone had lost that phone footage.
是的。
Yeah.
反正这也太不公平了。
It's so unfair anyway.
她又因为别的事情被重新逮捕了。
She is rearrested for some for something else.
所以请你最近多去她家看看。
So so please go and visit her house much more recently.
而这件事显然是有人发布这段视频，因为她又上了新闻。
And this is the thing that somebody obviously releases this video because she's back in the news again.
有人把这段视频发布给了TMZ。
Somebody releases this video to TMZ.
他那个时分时合的伴侣最近报告了多起家庭暴力事件。
Domestic violence incidents that he the the on off partner has reported really recently.
不仅如此，顺便说一下，这本应该是我们的主要关注点。
So not only that, I mean, which, by the way, should be our primary focus.
是的。
Yeah.
但她还毁了《单身女郎》这一季，因为情况其实还行。
But she's also destroyed the season of The Bachelorette because it's quite alright.
她和那个她重新回到身边的男人在一起。
She's with the guy that she's got that she's back with that guy.
所以我想，那30个追求者都没成功，是的。
So I guess none of the 30 worked out, the 30 suitors Yeah.
因为她又和那个男人在一起了，而且最近不断有他对她实施家庭暴力的报道。
Because she's back with the guy that she's got, and and there are ongoing reports of direct domestic violence from him.
所以我想，我们都知道她找不到真爱。
So I guess we know she doesn't find love.
对。
Yeah.
那么发生了什么？这意味着
So what happened What does
这告诉我们真人秀节目的现状如何
this tell us about the state of reality
那么现在最大的问题是，他们已经把《单身女郎》整个季度的拍摄都完成了，制作费用也已经支付了。
TV Well, I mean, what what happens now is the big question, which is so they've they've shot the whole of The Bachelorette's all in the can all in the can to the extent that the production has been paid.
你知道，制作公司已经收到了款项。
Every the, you know, the the production company has been paid.
泰勒·弗兰基·保罗已经收到了25万英镑的酬劳，并且不需要退还，因为她已经完成了所有被要求做的事情。
Taylor Frankie Paul has been paid a quarter of £1,000,000 fee and does not have to give it back because she she's done everything she's been asked to do.
之后发生的一切都不关她的事。
Everything that happens afterwards is not her business.
正如你所说，我看到有报道称，每集时长为45分钟。
It costs, as you say, there are some I I was reading somewhere there's 45 minute.
你看。
Look.
这个成本大约是七千万美元，而且这还没算上任何宣传推广的费用。
I it's more around $70,000,000 this cost, and that's before you start, you know, any any sort of publicity campaign.
所以这笔钱是被核销了，还是不是？
So that money is written off, or is it?
先把这个放一放。
Park that for a for a for a second.
《摩门妻子的隐秘生活》最新一季也因这一切而暂停，这又是另一个规模巨大的系列节目。
The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives latest season is also on hiatus because of all of this, which is another absolutely enormous franchise.
所以，正如你所说，乔什·达马罗其实没那么惨。
So poor Josh D'Amaro, as you say, he's not that poor.
对。
No.
从《公园与游憩》的角度来看，你只是觉得，这不过是一门生意。
Come coming from Parks where you're just thinking, I mean, this is just a business.
实际上，才第二天，他就摇身一变成了BBC的总干事，说：‘哦，什么？’
Literally on day two, he turns into the director general of the BBC and goes, oh, what?
那现在怎么办？
So what now?
他怎么了？
He's
做了什么？
done what?
我觉得他们以一种极其犬儒的方式，或许能让摩门妻子们挽救这个节目，因为她们可以把这个内容融入到节目形式中，就是那种……你知道的，我并不是在讨论这件事的道德性。
I feel that they can you know, in a really grotesquely cynical way that Mormon wives can probably save it because they can bring it into the format because it's that And, type of a you know, I'm I'm not debating the morality of this.
这只是娱乐电视。
This is entertainment television.
但我认为他们大概能把它带回来。
But I think that they can probably bring it in.
这让我对真人秀的现状有了些思考：在过去，这类节目的模式是围绕明星展开，而基本上你面对的都是无名之辈，可以找些怪人、乱七八糟的人和挑衅者。
It does say something to me about the state of reality TV, which is that in the old days, the format of all these shows would be the star, and basically you're dealing with unknowns, and you could get freaks and hot messes and provocateurs.
而这种模式可以容纳他们，因为你并不是在围绕一个已经成名的人打造节目。
And the format could sort of take them because you you weren't building a show around someone already.
所以你可以说，他们或许能创造出一些新东西。
And so you could sort of say, oh, they they could sort of spell the new things.
独立的个体，下一季我们重新开始。
Discrete entities, and the next season, we start again.
但现在这些节目形式都是围绕着最突出的怪人构建的，你知道的那些人。
But now the formats are built around the biggest outlier characters, people you know.
没人是无名之辈。
Nobody's a nobody.
每个人在某种程度上都很出名，无论是在网上。
Everybody's famous in some way, whether it be on online.
他们每个人都带着超出节目之外的高关注度平台。
They all come with these huge high profile platforms outside the show.
因此，真人秀参赛者在某种程度上可以变得更加有毒和疯狂，因为他们拥有了以前从未有过的某种权力。
And so reality TV contestants can be much more toxic and crazy in some sort of way because they actually have a form of power that they never did before.
而且，他们突然变得可以反复回归了。
And also, they are going to be they are suddenly returnable.
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