古驰拍出了世界上最烂的电影吗？

本期节目由我们的好朋友Sky赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky.

无论是斯科塞斯与德尼罗、英国人与排队，还是格伦·鲍威尔慢镜头入画，有些事物天生绝配——Sky与Netflix正是如此。

Now whether it's, Scorsese and De Niro, Brits and a queue, or Glenn Powell and a slow motion entrance into frame, some things are just better together, and Sky and Netflix do just that.

两大顶级内容平台强强联手，Sky基础电视套餐每月仅需15英镑，一站式整合统一账单。堪称全明星阵容：Sky原创带来《伦敦黑帮》《豺狼之日》，Netflix奉上全球热剧《鱿鱼游戏》和《星期三》。

Two heavyweight storytellers side by side on the Sky Essential TV package for just £15 a month, all in one place and on one bill. Call it the full ensemble. Sky Originals bringing gangs of London and the day of the Jackal, Netflix delivering global obsessions like Squid Game, and Wednesday.

再加上Sky Atlantic、Discovery Plus等90多个频道，这样的节目表足以重塑你的一周，让每个平凡夜晚都变成视听盛宴。

Add Sky Atlantic, Discovery Plus, and more than 90 other channels to that list, and you've got the kind of lineup that bends the week around it, turning ordinary evenings into events.

Sky与Netflix联合套餐每月15英镑。精品剧集、无限选择、完整阵容，尽在一处。

Sky and Netflix together for £15 a month. Premium shows, endless choice, and a lineup that feels complete, all in one place.

立即访问sky.com开通。需配备Sky电视及第三方订阅服务。Sky基础电视套餐包含精选Sky频道，仅限18岁以上英国本土及海峡群岛、马恩岛用户。

Visit sky.com to start. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscriptions. Sky Essential TV includes a selection of Sky channels, 18 plus UK channel islands, and Isle Of Man only.

大家好，欢迎收听本期《余兴节目》，我是玛丽娜·海德。

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

我是理查德·奥斯曼。你好，玛丽娜。

And me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina.

你好，理查德。你怎么样？

Hello, Richard. How are you?

我很好。听着，简单透露一下背景，现在是周一早上9点左右，我不想重提Spotify零食抽屉的往事。但在我们上节目前，你刚刚吃了什么？

I'm I'm very well. So it's listen. Just pulling the curtain back briefly. It's it's sort of 09:00 on a Monday morning, and I don't wish to reopen the Spotify snack drawer annals. But what what have you just eaten before before we went on air?

我吃过早餐了，但还吃了一包猪皮脆。

I've had my breakfast, but I've also had a packet of pork scratchings.

对，还是那种非名牌的猪皮脆。

Yeah. Some sort of off brand pork scratchings as well.

没错。包装正面还特意强调不含碳水化合物。但说到底，这可是猪皮脆啊，我在8点55分吃的猪皮脆。

Yeah. Like, foregrounds the fact on the front that, you know, they've contains no carbohydrate. It's like, yes, but it is a pork I mean, ultimately, it's a pork scratching that I'm eating at 08:55.

对，就是那种你在《龙穴》节目里会看到的猪皮脆。这周我们要聊什么话题？

Yeah. It's the sort of pork scratching you'd see on Dragon's Den. Yeah. What are we talking about this week?

理查德，我们正处在时装周期间，这次要聊的是古驰没有举办时装秀。他们换了一位新设计师掌舵，水平远超《超级名模》，还拍了一部三十分钟的电影，我们稍后会讨论。

We're in the middle of fashion weeks, Richard, and we're talking about there wasn't a Gucci fashion show this time. They have a new designer at the helm who is beyond Zoolander, and they had a thirty minute film, which we're gonna talk about.

不得不说，我之前从未听说过这位先生。显然也没听说过这部电影。但现在我认识他了，也看过了这部影片。我非常、非常、非常期待能聊聊它。

I have to say I had not heard of this gentleman. I'd obviously not heard of this film. I have now heard of him. I have watched this film. I am very, very, very much looking forward to talking about it.

确实很特别。

It's quite something.

内容相当丰富。

It's quite a lot there.

我们还要聊聊《鸡肉店约会》。哦。为什么它会大火，对人才意味着什么，诸如此类的话题。

We're also going to talk about Chicken Shop Date. Oh. Why it's been a huge hit, what it means for talent, all that kind of stuff.

我们还要讨论一部新动画《小魔怪》，它有个非常特别之处，可能会颠覆一切。不过这部分我们留到下半场再聊。

And we're also going to talk about Critters, a new animation that's being made that's got something very significant about it that might just blow everything apart. Anyway, we'll get to that bit in second half.

这很好。你确实学会了那种点到为止的说话方式。

That's really good. You're really learning that sort of not not giving so much.

好吧

Well

你知道吗，我就直说了，天哪。你绝对想不到这份清单上的第七项是什么。

You know, just saying, what oh my goodness. And you will not believe number seven on this list.

在我吃猪皮脆片时你对我说过，我是不可复制的，看看你让我做了什么。

One of the things you said to me while I was eating the scratchings was that I was unproducible, and look what you made me do.

现在看看你。

And now look at you.

现在看看我。

Now look at me.

那真是太令人印象深刻了。

That was really impressive.

戴上我制作人的帽子

With my producer's hat on

是啊。

Yeah.

我想我们该开始播客了。让我跟你聊聊古驰和Yes。Gemini，对吧？我们正处在各大时装周期间，古驰传统上在意大利米兰时装周办秀，但这次却没有举办时装秀。

I think we ought to start the podcast now. Let me talk to you about Gucci and Yes. Gemini. Right? We're in the middle of all the fashion weeks, and Gucci traditionally shows in Italy, Milan Fashion Week, but this time it didn't have a fashion show.

取而代之的是一部三十分钟的电影。这是个虚构的完整故事，由斯派克·琼斯和海伦娜·雷恩执导，主演包括黛米·摩尔、爱德华·诺顿、艾德·哈里斯、柯柯·帕尔默、艾略特·佩吉和阿莉雅·肖卡特。

It had a thirty minute movie. It's fictional with a whole story, you know, directed by Spike Jones and Helena Raine. It stars Demi Moore, Edward Norton, Ed Harris, Keke Palmer, Elliot Page, Alia Shawkat.

肯达尔·詹娜。

Kendall Jenner.

肯达尔·詹娜。没错。所以他们没有办时装秀，而是搞了这场首映礼，所有明星都盛装出席，进去观看了这部电影。古驰现在由一位名叫德姆纳的新设计师掌舵，他最初创立了自己的品牌，后来去了巴黎世家。古驰隶属于开云集团，这是个奢侈品品牌巨头，而古驰是其旗下最大的品牌。

Kendall Jenner. Yeah. And so instead of a fashion show, they had this premiere and all the stars sort of turned up and then they went in and they watched this movie. Gucci has a new designer at the helm, a guy called Demna and he launched his own label originally and then he went to Balenciaga. Gucci is owned by Kering, which is a luxury brand sort of umbrella and they're the biggest brand under that thing.

他们在财报电话会议上被提及，但销售业绩一直非常糟糕。明白吗？所以他们需要这位设计师一登场就传递出强有力的信息。《纽约时报》有篇关于德姆纳的搞笑人物特写，我强烈推荐阅读。照片里他和妮可·基德曼在一起，

And they get mentioned on the earnings call and their sales have been doing really, really badly. Okay? So they need to have a strong message with this guy out of the gate. There's a hilarious New York Times profile of Demna, which I strongly recommend reading. He's with Nicole Kidman.

两人刚认识不久。他们各自把手放在对方心脏位置，就这样沉默对视了两分钟。显然，这是她偏爱的与人建立连接的方式。

They each have their they've only just met each other. They each have their hands on the other person's heart, and they stay like that silent staring at each other for two minutes. It is her preferred way of connecting with someone, apparently.

你说与人建立联系，是指如果你在街上走近她说‘我是你的粉丝’，她就会这么做吗？

When you say connecting with somebody, does she do that in the street if you go up to her and say, I'm a big fan?

我觉得她的保镖会像镰刀一样把你撂倒。

I think her bodyguard will take you will cut you down like a scythe, I think.

我敢打赌那是个‘她’。

I bet that's a her

实际上她更喜欢...我觉得你没事。是的。他之前曾把自己的工作比作德姆纳背负十字架的基督。有场时装秀我觉得模特们不得不跋涉穿过——看起来像泥浆的东西，简直疯了，看起来可怕又病态。还有像坎耶·韦斯特那样的大泥堆之类的恐怖东西。

actual preferred preferred preferred I think you're okay. Yeah. He has compared his job on previous occasions to Demna to Christ carrying the cross. One of the fashion shows I thought these models had to sort of wade through, I mean, what looked like slurry was absolutely mad, looking absolutely horrendous and ill. And there were horrible things like big piles of mud Kanye West.

这是在堕入表演性纳粹主义之前，但他们不得不在T台上与他遭遇。

This is before the descent into performative Nazism, but he they had to sort of encounter him along the catwalk.

他非常非常前卫。

He's very, very avant garde.

嗯，但他...

Well, that but he's

可以说

would say

他在营销方面是个天才。没错。他加入巴黎世家时，公司收入是3.5亿美元，而当他离开时，收入达到了20亿美元。好了，我们来聊聊这部电影吧，这才是我们讨论的重点。

he is a genius at marketing. Yeah. And when he joined Balenciaga, revenue was $350,000,000, and when he left, it was 2,000,000,000. Okay. So let's talk about the film because that's why we're talking about this.

这部电影叫《老虎》。

It's called the tiger.

片名叫《老虎》。影片似乎围绕一个核心问题展开：如果你和老虎共处一室，你会选择与它搏斗还是任由它贬低你？不得不说这些对深度的尝试确实...（意味深长）

It's called the tiger. It appears to be based on some central question, like, you're in a room with a tiger, would you try and sort of fight it or let it devalue? I have to say the stabs at profundity are Yes.

故事设定在近未来，一个虚构的未来世界，黛米·摩尔饰演古驰家族成员。

It's set in a a slightly kind of a near future, an imagined future where Demi Moore is a Gucci.

她饰演芭芭拉·古驰。

She's a Barbara Gucci.

是的。她不仅掌管古驰集团，还曾担任加州首席执行官。不过在这个时间线上，古驰已经退出加州市场了。

Yeah. She she's and she she runs Gucci, but she she was also chief executive of California. Gucci abort California at this point.

她的孩子们？

Her children?

她的孩子们。艾略特·佩奇算是她的首席执行官，爱德华·诺顿是她前段婚姻的继子，他相信末日被提论，认为我们都会被外星人接走。艾德·哈里斯则饰演一位《名利场》记者。

Her children. Elliot Page, who's her sort of chief exec, Edward Norton, who is her stepson by a previous marriage, who believes in the rapture, and we're all about to get picked up by aliens. Ed Harris turns up as a Vanity Fair journalist.

是啊。《名利场》在这事儿上还挺重要。

Yeah. Vanity Fair still matters in this.

没错，这很有趣

Yes. It's funny that

浮华世界。

fancy world.

可不是吗？我是说，AI已经接管了整个世界，但《名利场》记者的开销依然大得惊人。

Isn't it? I mean, I mean, AI AI has taken over the entire world, but still a vanity fair journalist is is on enormous expense.

我是说它又变得重要了，因为说实话。《名利场》早已今非昔比。

I mean, it matters again, because let's face it. It doesn't mean vanity fair isn't what it was.

我在想，你是不是英国唯一一个刚吃完一包猪皮脆就说虚荣精灵今非昔比的人。是啊。她现在住在一栋漂亮的房子里。全家人来聚餐，每个人都服用了某种温和的致幻剂。

I wonder if you're the only person in Britain who has said vanity fairy is not what it used to be within minutes of eating a bag of pork scratchings. Yeah. So she's in a beautiful house. The family all come for a meal. Everyone takes some sort of mild hallucinogenic.

他们有的体验美妙，有的糟糕。大家会讨论金钱、风格、品味和人生意义之类的话题。

They have good and bad trips. There's, like, conversations about money, style, taste, Meaning.

时尚是什么？衣服又是什么？

What is fashion? What are clothes?

如果房间里有一只老虎，你会怎么做？

What would you do in a room with a tiger?

他们身上穿的全是系列里的服装。这才是重点对吧？所以这不是传统走秀——

All of what they were wearing is what were the clothes in the collection. That's that's the that's the point, isn't it? So instead of a catwalk

所有家族成员都穿着这些服饰，他在米兰时装周展示了这场秀。后来这些人又穿着同款衣服亮相，还有格温妮丝·帕特洛等名人。说实话，这场秀的出席人数比电影首映礼还多。这是所有时装周里讨论度最高、最具突破性的事件。最有趣的是，我们之前讨论过多少次——当你能让人们免费为你宣传时...他们显然在这上面花了大价钱，请来了大明星和顶级导演。毕竟再精美的广告也有人会快速划过。

All of the family are wearing the fake family are wearing the clothes, and he showed it at Milan Fashion Week, and they all turned up again in the clothes, and they had and Gwyneth Paltrow, other people I mean, I have to say more people turned up to that than you would get to a premiere. This is the thing that most people have talked this is the broke breakout of all the fashion weeks. What's fascinating about it is that we've talked about this how many times before. When you can get people to do your publicity for free, spend they've obviously spent a lot of money on this because they've got big stars, and they've got big direct very big directors. Because in the end, ads, whilst beautiful, some people flick past them.

事实上，多数人都会快速划过广告。顺便说，这些服装其实根本没有统一主题。这就是个 meme 素材。如果不能被做成梗图，那还算成功吗？

In fact, a lot of people flick past them. By the way, the clothes in this, there's not really a coherent theme to any of it at all. This is sort of memeable. If it's not memeable Yeah. What's does it even work?

正如我所说，许多这些品牌都陷入困境，他们必须找到一种方式，制造一些伪有机时刻，让每个人都觉得，‘哦，等等，如果我标记自己说我是最后的势利鬼或随便什么人，那会很有趣。’ 但说实话，所有人都在这么做，他们早就料到你会这么做。是的。

And as I say, lots of these brands are in trouble, and they've got to find a way, pseudo organic moments where everyone feels like, oh, hang on. It'd be really fun if I tagged myself and said I was last snob or whoever it is. So, like, by the way, everyone's doing that. They already know that you're going to do that. Yeah.

你可以多采访黛米关于这件事的看法，也可以采访艾德·哈里斯，或者我不知道，你还可以采访导演们。

You could interview Demi more about this. You could interview Ed Harris. You could I don't know. You could interview the directors.

我确实有几个问题要问他们。为什么他们要这么做？我猜，一是他们收了钱，二是古驰给了他们衣服。对吧？

I've got a couple of questions for them for sure. Yeah. Why did they do this? I'm assuming, a, they got paid and b, that Gucci gave them clothes. Right?

这可能挺不错的。有些演员特别喜欢收到衣服。对吧？你会觉得，对某些演员来说，演戏最棒的部分就是结束后能拿到衣服。

And that's probably nice. This some actors love getting clothes. Right? That's that's by some actors, you think, I think that your favorite thing about acting is that you get given clothes afterwards.

嗯，就像我们周五晚上在外面讨论的，很多有钱人就是无法忍受自己掏钱买东西。你可以用你的薪水——是的。

Well, as we discussed when we were out on Friday night, rich a lot of rich people just cannot stand to pay for things. You could use your salary Yeah.

你可以用你的薪水。

You could your salary.

去买这些东西。但现在人们说，颁奖季红毯上很多演员穿的都是秀场还没发布的新品。这是因为，为什么不先让演员穿上呢？反正有人会讨论，然后你会看到，‘天哪，你在戛纳电影节上的造型太惊艳了’，之后我们才会在时装秀上看到那套造型——它本该是神圣不可侵犯的新系列首秀。

To buy the stuff. But now people are saying, oh, lots of actors on the awards ceremony circuit are wearing stuff that you haven't yet seen on the catwalks. And that's because why wouldn't you push it on an actor who someone's gonna talk about and, you know, and you see, oh my goodness. You've got a real amazing look at the Cannes Film Festival, and then we're gonna later see that. That was it was totally sacrosanct, the debut of the fashion collection of the fashion show.

如今已不再是为了追求那些文化时刻。比如所有这些事物，在九十年代你可能对那种'出卖灵魂'的行为有不同看法。现在人们对所谓的'出卖'已不再敏感。年轻一代成长过程中，广告无处不在——无论是他们观看的内容中还是内容间隙，就像突如其来的停顿，你必须看完广告才能继续。对那代人来说，'植入广告'这个概念已经过时了。

It's not anymore because you need those cultural moments. Like, all of these things, you might have felt different about that kind of selling out in the nineties. People now don't feel the same about so called selling out. That you've got generations who've grown up being advertised to all the time around the things they're watching or in the middle of them, just like with a kind of rude stop, you've gotta watch an advent you carry on. The idea of product placement is such an antiquated term to that generation

对我们这些电视时代成长起来的人而言，如果节目里有产品植入，还得在屏幕角落标个'P'字。而现在正如你所说，幕前幕后都是顶级人才参与。没人掩饰这就是古驰广告的事实——开场就明示角色们都叫'古驰'。

of people. Still from the TV generation where we'd have to put a letter p in the corner of the screen if you, you know, if there was product placement or something. And now this whole as you say, there's really, really A list talent behind the camera and in front of the camera. There's no one's dressing up the fact that there's anything other than a Gucci advert. Right at the beginning, we see that the people are called Gucci.

所有人都穿着古驰，这似乎完全没问题。没人对此有意见。这让我对我们饱受冲击的内容产业重燃希望。这种现象就是'广告娱乐化'，如今品牌必须创造产品，必须制作人们主动观看和分享的内容。

Everyone is dressed in Gucci, and that that seems to be absolutely fine. No one seems to mind about that. It gives me some hope for our beleaguered content industry. So the phenomena here is adotainment, which is these days brands have to create product. They have to create their own content that people will willingly watch and willingly share.

关键是要营造氛围。具体是什么反而不太重要。若问时尚是什么？它就是弥漫在空气中的东西，是渴望参与其中的冲动。

So to create the vibes. It almost doesn't quite matter what the thing is. But if you ask what is fashion, it's some what what is it? It's something that's in the air. It's wanting to be part of something.

这是一种难以抗拒的冲动。

It's a sort of compulsion.

现在电视上几乎每天都有纪录片——比如圣诞节期间玛莎百货或阿斯达超市的幕后故事。所有超市都在他们部分资助的频道投放品牌内容。这就是所有品牌必须进入的世界：一端是蒂姆·伯顿执导，黛米·摩尔和爱德华·诺顿出演的《老虎》这种荒诞作品。

You you will rarely go a day on television without there being a documentary which is behind the scenes at M and S or ASDER at Christmas. Yeah. Or, you know, all of the supermarkets have branded content on channels, which they are part funding as well. This is this is the world that all of these brands have to get into. And at one end of it, you have the tiger with Demi Moore and Ed Norton and this absurdness.

另一端则是《英镑大战》这类内容。本质相同——品牌必须明白，如今不能再在报纸甚至网络上投放静态广告了。没人会点击，五秒内就会划走。关键在于创造人们主动选择观看的内容。

And on the other hand, you have pound shot wars. But it's the same thing. It's about brands, and it's about brands understanding that you cannot put just a stationary advert in a newspaper or even online these days. No one's clicking you know, people are clicking off clicking off after five seconds. It is about creating something that people are watching through choice

一个故事。

A story.

通过选择分享，如今在这个世界上，你找不到一个没有内容部门的品牌。你找不到一个不雇佣代理机构来制作内容的品牌，这些内容设计出来不是为了作为插播广告或平面广告发布，而是作为可以被其他人分享的内容片段。这就是现在的行业现状。我认为唯一的好处是，总会有人来制作所有这些内容。而来自一个人们正在失去工作的行业，那些非常非常擅长制作内容的人正是这些人。

Sharing through choice, and this world now where you will not find a brand who does which does not have a content division now. You will not find a brand who isn't employing agencies to make them content, which are designed not to go out as bumper adverts or not to go out as print adverts, but to go out as pieces of content which can be shared by other human beings. That's that industry now. The one good thing about it is, I think, is someone's gonna make all of that stuff. And coming from an industry where people are losing their jobs, those are the people who are very, very, very good at making it.

而且它如此肤浅。是的。因为就像所有这些事情，我实际上前几周读了一篇非常有趣的文章，我会试着找到并放在节目笔记里，关于现在所有的室内设计趋势都不得不变成一种两个词的标签。它们不是，你知道，因为人们只想用两个词来标签和传达每一种美学，这是深度的对立面。这不是关于深入理解人们。

And it's so shallow. Yeah. Because like all of these things I actually read a really interesting article the other week, which I'll try and find and put in the show notes, I can't about how everything, all interior design trends now have just had to become a sort of two word tag. And they're not, you know, because people want to just tag and make every single aesthetic simply communicable in two words, which is an antithesis of depth. And it's not about sort of deeply understanding people.

这就像那些轻率的后现代笑话，你会说，哦，我懂了。我懂了。我懂了。这就是滚动文化，完全没有深度。

It's just like a sort of it's like these little glib postmodern jokes where you're like, oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. It's all it's scroll culture and there's no depth to it at all.

但广告一直以来都必须如此。你有三十秒的时间，你知道，你在制作一个吸尘器，和其他五家公司一样，你必须传达出一种氛围，一个两个词的氛围，说明为什么这是你明天会买的那一个。但现在这种情况被放大到了这些所谓的伟大艺术作品上。

But that's what advertising has always had to be necessarily. You've got thirty seconds to get you know, you're making a a vacuum cleaner in the same way that five other companies are, and you've got to get across a vibe, a two word vibe as to why this would be the one you buy tomorrow. And but now that's writ large across these sort of the big works of art.

但如果你说它可能会那样，那么它就会贬低

But if you're saying that it could get then then then it will demean

不。它不会因为因为

No. It won't because because

深度如此。是的。将会如此。

depth of that. Yes. It will.

因为现在成长起来的一代人就是在这样的环境中长大的，他们会以此为乐，会与之互动。他们对此心知肚明，会创作相关的内容，并按照他们的意愿塑造文化——历来都是如此。要知道，我们完全就是五六十年代乃至七十年代那种电视节目和广告的产物。我们深受其影响，制作的节目也处处体现着那些元素。而如今，钟摆又朝另一个方向摆动了。

Because the generation growing up now have grown up with that, and they'll have fun with it, and they'll play with that. They they they understand that perfectly well, and they will make things that play on that, and they will bend the culture to what they would like it to be, which has always been the way. You know, we absolutely we're we're a product of the sort of television and the sort of advertising that that that happened in the fifties and sixties and seventies. And, you know, we were absolutely informed by that, and we we made our programs in reference to that. And, you know, the pendulum swings, you know, one way or another.

我猜想，这一代人会用客户自己的资金创造出非凡的作品，但这些作品会反映出他们成长环境的气候。

And this generation will make extraordinary things, I suspect, with the client's own money, but that speak to the climate in which they grew up.

我认为那不可能实现，实际上我打算在进入建议环节时提出一个方案——

I don't think that will be possible, and I think that I'm I'm actually gonna recommend something when we get to the recommendation I should

是猪皮脆吗？

Is it pork scratchings?

是的是的是的。

It it it is.

因为顺便说一句，我们今早收了猪皮脆厂商不少钱，但我觉得根本没人会注意到我们被重金收买这件事。我们——

Because by the way, we've been paid a lot and I don't think anyone would notice that we've been paid quite a lot of money by these pork scratchings people this morning. We we

甚至都不记得他们的名字。我记不住。

have even remember their name. I can't.

就像假的，是装出来的

It's like a fake it's a pretend

成立公司。对，那不是真正的公司。Smack Basket里的人你之前从没听说过他们的名字。

making company. Yeah. It's not a real company. None of the people in the Smack Basket have you've never heard their name before.

他们都像是刚从伊顿公学毕业，他们的父亲认识一位风险投资家，而他们已经...他们完蛋了

They all feel like somebody just left Eton, and their dad knew a venture capitalist, and they've they're dead

是个风险

is a venture

投资家。他说，你可以经营你的猪皮零食公司两年，然后就得找份工作。

capitalist. And he said, you can you you can run your pork scratching company for two years, and then you have to get a job.

然后你必须来我的风险投资公司工作。我觉得这很有趣。我认为关键在于Demna是否能重振Gucci的运势，让人们...某种程度上说，这是个不错的开始。是的，仅凭这一件事，就成了目前最受热议的话题，因为很多人都在想：他真的行吗？我不知道他是否真的...但他确实很出色。

And then you have to come and work at my venture capital firm. I think it's interesting. I think the proof will be in whether Demna is able to revive the fortunes of Gucci and make people and I think to some extent, I mean, it's quite a good start in that Yeah. Just by doing this one thing, it's my by far the most talked about thing and because lots of people thought, is he actually any good? I don't know if he's actually But he's good.

非常，非常

Very, very

擅长营销。

good at marketing.

是啊。

Yeah.

天啊，他太离谱了。他在营销、病毒传播、理解这类核心要素方面简直离谱。

My god. He's ridiculous. He's ridiculous at marketing, virality, understanding that kind of essential

他是个非常有趣的人。我越是了解他，就越有点喜欢他。他他他他——

He's a very interesting guy. The more I read about him, the more I sort of liked him. He's he's he's he's

我知道，我是说，我

I know. I mean, I

知道，我爱我爱你们。而且他他确实能出成果，这点你必须佩服。那两位导演拍这部电影时——他们有个很棒的引述？我不是说他们当真了，但这话可能出自《名利场》，也可能是《纽约客》——记者问：斯派克·琼斯两人联合执导电影是什么感觉？

know, I love I love you. And and he and he gets he gets results, and I you have to admire that. The can I the two directors who made the film, they're just a a great quote? I'm not saying they took it seriously, but I think this is in vanity fair. Actually, it might might have been in the New New Yorker, but the interviewer said, what was it like having two people direct a film, Spike Jones?

首先，我们进行了一种心灵融合，为期六周的冥想训练，每天八小时，以培养非语言交流能力。我推荐任何合作项目都尝试这种方法。

First, we did a kind of mind meld, a kind of six week med meditation, like eight hours a day to foster nonverbal communication. I recommend it for any kind of collaboration.

也许他们每天把手放在心脏上八小时，而不是两分钟。

Maybe they had their heart hand on the heart for eight hours a day instead of two minutes.

但我们生活在

But we live in

轻量级的妮可·基德曼。

lightweight Nicole Kidman is.

我们生活在

We live

及时？

In time?

一个绝对荒谬的世界。这太疯狂了。那只老虎，它就叫这个名字。你可以在YouTube上找到它。那只老虎。

Absolutely absurd world. It is mental. The the tiger, it is called. You can you can find it on YouTube. The tiger.

你到处都能找到它。

You can find it everywhere.

你能告诉我们你进行到哪一步了吗？或者说，你究竟完成了多少？我的意思是，就是...

Do you let us know how or quite how far you make it through? I mean, it's it's

加入我们的完美主义者俱乐部吧。

Join us in the completists club.

没错。我们会给能坚持到底的人颁发徽章。

Exactly. We will be sending out badges to anyone who can get all the way through.

我们休息一下好吗？

Shall we go to a break?

好的，我们休息吧。

Yes. We shall.

我们接下来要讨论什么话题？

What are we gonna be talking about

炸鸡店约会，我得说，这跟古驰老虎电影完全是两码事。甚至可以说是它的反面。

Chicken shop date, which is, I'd say, an entirely different proposition to the Gucci Tiger film. It might be the exact inverse of it.

说得对。好了，广告后见。本集由天空电视台为您呈现，您可以在这里观看不容错过的节目，包括获奖原创喜剧《布拉斯克》的最终告别季。

Quite right. Okay. See you after the break. This episode is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch unmissable shows, including the final farewell of the award winning Sky original comedy, Brassic.

七季之后，霍利镇的这群人即将谢幕，却依然满怀信念地追逐着各种计划。《布拉斯克》像一群从未理解'最后通牒'含义的人那样，冲向了迄今为止最大的挑战。

Seven series later, the gang from Hawley are bowing out, still chasing schemes with full conviction. Brassic charges through its biggest challenge yet like a group that never learned the meaning of last orders.

这是一场带着谢幕的混乱。乔·吉尔根、米歇尔·基根、多米尼克·韦斯特——这些你可能在三个完全不同领域期待的大牌，却不可思议地在一个北方小镇相撞，这里的灾祸比公交线路还多。

It's chaos with a curtain call. Joe Gilgan, Michelle Keegan, Dominic West, big names you might expect on three entirely different billboards, yet all improbably colliding in a northern town with more calamities than bus routes.

这一次，老对手卷土重来，失散多年的家人重现，麻烦如影随形。但这不像终结，更像是他们本色出演的告别——混乱、喧闹，换作别人绝对搞不砸。

This time, it's old enemies resurfacing, long lost family reappearing, and trouble following them at every turn. But rather than an ending, it feels like a send off true to form, messy, riotous, and impossible mistake by anyone else.

他们正以偶像应有的方式华丽退场，用恶作剧、怪胎和恰到好处的混乱编织成终章，让人感觉霍利镇精神直到最后。

They're leaving the stage the way icons should with a proper bang, a finale stitched together with mischief, misfits, and just enough mayhem to feel like Hawley to the end.

现在就在天空电视台观看《布拉斯克》最终告别季，每周更新新集。需持有相关天空电视订阅。

Watch the final farewell of Brassic now on Sky with new episodes weekly. Requires relevant Sky TV subscription.

欢迎回来，各位。现在我们要聊聊‘炸鸡店约会’这档节目的十周年。

Welcome back, everybody. Now we're going to talk about ten years of chicken shop date.

没错，‘炸鸡店约会’十周年了。当初策划未来内容方向时，我完全没想到会以家禽食品为主题。但这个节目和《辣味访谈》如今已成为YouTube上两大标志性内容形式。给不了解的观众介绍一下：演员兼喜剧编剧阿米莉亚·德穆尔登堡会带着采访对象穿梭于伦敦各色灯光俗艳的炸鸡店，在鸡块陪伴下进行访谈。

Yes. Ten years old chicken shop date. It's when you looked at what the future content was gonna be, I I didn't think it was gonna be quite so poultry based. But with this and Hot Ones, the two of the big formatted bits of YouTube content. So people who don't know chicken shop date, there's Amelia De Muldenburg who's a actor, comic, writer, and she takes interviewees on a date in various London chicken shops, very, very garishly lit, and interviews them over chicken nuggets.

节目设定是她以寻找真爱为由，带人进行约会——选在这种地方约会本身就很有喜剧效果。如今这个节目已持续十年，拥有350万订阅用户。最近她和安德鲁·加菲尔德那期更是爆红网络，获得了约1000万次观看。

The the the light conceit is she's looking for love, and she's taking people for a date, and this is a funny place to take, people for a date. But she has now been going ten years. It's huge. She's got 3 and a half million subscribers. She did one recently with Andrew Garfield, which went wildly viral and that got kind of 10,000,000 views.

首先必须向阿米莉亚·德穆尔登堡致敬，能将这个企划坚持十年并取得如此成就。但我更关注的是，她21岁在YouTube起步时——

And, firstly, absolute fair play to immediate Demoldenburg for putting this together and running this for ten years and being quite so successful. But I'm interested in it in terms of what it means for because she started it when she was 21 on YouTube, started it

当时还是个学生。这个企划源自她为青年俱乐部杂志——

as a student. She'd it grew out of a a youth club magazine

对。

Yeah.

撰写的专栏。她塑造了一个寻找爱情的角色形象，通过和不同对象约会展开故事。

Column sheet you know, that she'd had. The idea of sort of being a a character, I suppose, looking for love and going on dates with with people.

鸡肉注射点是个非常非常糟糕的地方，她本能地觉得这很滑稽。然后，你知道的，她开始在这种情境下采访人们，节目就这样发展起来了。到了21岁这代，她决定把这事做成YouTube内容，自己也参与拍摄。最早一期是采访英国说唱歌手Getz，最近他们还重聚拍了新内容，非常非常值得一看。如果你还没看过的话——她通常录制45分钟左右，但成片大概8到10分钟，偶尔更长些，经过大量剪辑。内容主要是她采访别人，带点调情，背景里还有人们炸薯条之类的生活化场景

And chicken shots being a very, very bad place to have She a instinctively understood that was funny. And and, you know, you start interviewing people in in in that context, and it it builds from there. Now in every other generation so when she's 21, she decides to do this as a YouTube thing, so she's filming it as well. Very first one with with a British rapper called Getz, who she recently did a revisit with, which is which is really, really worth watching. And if you've not seen it, it is I think she records for forty five minutes or so, but the the actual episode is about eight minutes, ten minutes, occasionally a little bit longer, heavily edited, her interviewing somebody, a little bit of flirting, lovely kind of background stuff of people frying chips

是啊。

Yeah.

诸如此类的东西。节目具有...

And things like that. It's got it's got

那些过渡镜头，比如薯条下锅的片段...

The interstitial stuff is, like, fries going down and

之类的，我超爱。节目视觉风格非常鲜明。正因如此火爆，现在各大品牌都争相找她合作。她做了很多红毯...

stuff, which I love. It's got a very strong visual identity. And off the back of this, because it is so huge, she is now hugely in demand with brands. She does lots of, you know, red carpet

点评。她确实很适合做红毯环节，简直是为这而生的。

reviews. Doing she really likes doing red carpet, which she's sort of made for.

没错。她太厉害了。她特别擅长...

Yeah. She's amazing. She's she's amazing at

她是奥斯卡官方社交媒体负责人，头衔里还特意加上了红毯采访者的身份。这类工作她做过无数次。安德鲁·加菲尔德那段故事相当精彩，要知道他们是在几次红毯相遇的。

it. She was the sort of official Oscars social media person, she made them put and red carpet interviewer on her job title. And she's done lots and lots of those. The Andrew Garfield story is a bit sort of amazing. You know, they met a couple of times on red carpets.

我是说，你总会忍不住希望她最终能和他修成正果。

And it I mean, there is you know, I always well, you want to believe that she'll find love with him.

没错，而且他们之间确实有种可感知的化学反应。

Yes. And There is there is a palpable chemistry.

天啊太绝了！有人说这简直是年度最佳浪漫喜剧——虽然只是部12分钟的小短片。但她塑造的女主角形象很有辨识度对吧？

Oh my god. It's amazing. It's like and someone's like, people were saying, oh my god. This is literally the best rom com of the year, and it's a 12 film or something in a chicken chop. But she's got that's quite a recognizable sort of heroine, isn't it?

这种连载式叙事让我联想到——比如最初的《BJ单身日记》专栏。她就是在寻找真爱的典型形象，镜头前的这个人设。

There's something very much about that episodic that reminded me when I was sort thinking about it, a bit about something like, you know, the original Bridget Jones column or something like you know, she's someone who's looking for love. Yeah. It's a persona that what she is on camera.

关键在于，艾米莉亚·德·穆登伯格确实很有喜剧天赋，这让人不禁思考——她是个真正的喜剧人才。

Well, that's the thing about it. A couple of things about it because it it does make you question. So she Emilia De Muldenburg is very funny. So she's she's a a a comic talent. She is a comic talent.

针对那个问题。

For that question.

而且她并不在传统电视行业工作，那既非她的职业方向，也非她特别想转型的领域。对此有两种看法：要么说明传统媒体疯了——如果他们不为此类内容留一席之地，那简直是丧失理智。

And she is not working on television. She's not working on legacy television. That's not a thing that she went into and it's not a thing that she's particularly interested in pivoting to. And couple of ways of looking at it, which are well, then it means that legacy media is, you know, is crazy. They've lost their minds if they don't have a place for this.

但《炸鸡店约会》每月只更新一期，每集仅八分钟。传统电视平台根本无从下手：你无法处理每月仅八分钟的内容。这不像'天啊你错过了某期节目'那种情况。

But chicken shop date, she does one a month, and they're eight minutes long. So if you are legacy television, you you can't do anything with that. You can't do anything with something that's eight minutes long that's on once a month. So it's not like, oh my god. You missed that, or you missed chicken shop date.

你会觉得'我们居然错过了每月八分钟的内容？'当然没错过——是我们压根没有适合它的播出时段。但对创作者而言，我常说最奇妙的是：每个创作者（尤其是初入行时）都在思考如何最短路径实现'从灵感到观众'。若想把《炸鸡店约会》做成电视节目，从构思到播出恐怕要两年，期间还得听取五十个人的意见。

You think what what we missed this eight minutes once a month? Of course, we didn't miss it. We can't we we don't have a place for that. But if you are a creative, and I've I've always said the the fascinating thing with any creator, especially at the start of their career, they they think what's the possible shortest journey between me having an idea and people seeing that idea. And if you wanted to do Chicken Shop Date as a television program, I would say probably two years between having the idea and it being on, and the 50 people have given you their opinion on what it should be.

另外五十人会指点你首期嘉宾人选，还有五十人参与剪辑。但作为媒体新生代，她完全可以说'不，我直接做成专栏'。

Another 50 people have told you who your first guest should be. Another 50 people are in the edit. But if you're a media demoldenburg or anyone from her generation or this next generation, you can go, oh, no. Listen. I did it as a column.

有低成本制作方式：每集约6美元成本，我能自筹自拍。脑海中的创意可以直接触达观众。

There's cheap ways to do it. It costs about $6 an episode. I can fund it. I can make it. And the thing that I have in my brain can go straight to viewers.

这正是她的成功之道——创造出自己想要的内容，因此充满真实感，这也是节目爆红的关键。当下这种去门槛化的传播路径最妙之处在于：优质内容终会浮出水面。做对了就会获得回报。

And that's exactly what she's done. She's created the thing that she wants. So it has that authenticity, which is the reason it's been such a big hit. One of the key points about this lovely route to market now and the lack of gatekeeping in this sort of community is good stuff has time to rise to the top. If you get it right, you're rewarded.

我认为艾米莉亚·德穆尔登伯格（尤其作为英国特定世代的代表）比任何人都更能展现年轻创作者面临的变革。若我现在是新人，肯定会选择自主创作并探索变现路径。

And I think Emilia De Muldenburg, more than sort of anybody, only because she's British and she's from a particular generation, shows what has changed for young creatives. And certainly, if I was a young creative now, the avenue that I would be going down, which is doing your own stuff, finding a way to monetize it.

我完全同意，而且我觉得它如何改变那些传统采访形式非常有趣。当我想到我们要讨论这个话题时，我就在想，我上次看到传统访谈节目中真正史诗级的时刻是什么时候？比如安德烈娅·麦克阿瑟那段就非常震撼，还有雪儿那些经典场面，但她做过太多事情了，你会觉得'天啊，这里面有些真正了不起的东西'。但上次看到这种时刻是什么时候呢？可能只是我看得不够多，但我确实记不清了。我觉得很有意思的是——抱歉又要提到美国——但你知道那些深夜脱口秀完全受市场驱动，它们基本上都融入了YouTube风格的制作理念。对吧？

I totally agree, and I think it's very interesting how how it's changed those traditional forms of interviewing. I was trying to think when I knew we're gonna talk about this, I was thinking, when was the last time I saw, like, a really epic moment on a legacy interview show? I mean, that Andrea McArthur thing is so epic and Cher and things like that she's done, but she's also done lots of things and you think, gosh, something really amazing comes through in this. But when was the last time you kind of maybe I'm just not watching enough of them, but I don't really remember those things and I think it's really interesting that, sorry to talk about The US, but I think it's you know, they're so market driven, those network, late night shows, they've all incorporated essentially stuff from this type of YouTube sensibility. Okay?

这些内容就是为了病毒式传播而设计的短视频。比如赛斯·迈耶斯的'与赛斯一起宿醉'环节，他会带着嘉宾出去喝酒，这些都不是在摄影棚里发生的。明白吗？这种设计就是为了制造传播效应。当然还有'拼车卡拉OK'。

Things that are meant to go viral and that are short. So you've got Seth Meyers does day drinking with Seth Meyers, which is so he'll, you know, he'll go out with the guests and he'll get drunk with them and and it it's not happening on the set. Know? It's a sort of designed to go like that. Obviously, there was carpool karaoke.

吉米·法伦也有类似的环节，比如那个'音乐模仿转盘'什么的。他们都在尝试这些剑走偏锋的小设计，本质上是为了打破他们自己最擅长的传统访谈模式——毕竟他们主持这些节目多年，总是坐在桌子后面。现在他们试图在自己的地盘上颠覆传统，制造病毒传播效果。要知道这些人可是做了几十年深夜节目的老手。

Jimmy Fallon's got that thing. The is it the like the wheel of musical impressions or whatever. They're all trying to do these little things that are left field and that are designed to disrupt really the the the traditional interview process that they are kind of the masters of because they run those shows and they sit behind a desk, and that's what those shows have always done. So they're trying to disrupt themselves now within their own thing in order to go viral so that they're like these people who, I mean, were a billion years of having a late night show.

但如果你是赛斯·迈耶斯或吉米·法伦这类人，你就是在喂养一台吞钱机器。你必须制造这些病毒式内容，因为有人花巨资请你做这些节目，制作成本极高，而你服务的公司需要为股东创造价值。但如果你只是个普通的21岁创意人，你可以用5000美元预算玩转这些创意，遵循的是完全不同的游戏规则。

But if you're Seth Meyers or if you're Jimmy Fallon or any of these people, you are feeding a machine that eats money. Yeah. You know, if you you have to have these viral things because someone is paying you an absolute fortune to make these shows and someone is you know, and the the the cost of making them is huge, and you're working for a corporation that needs to return value to its shareholders. If you are just a regular 21 year old creative, you can do these things, and you're doing it for 5,000 And for different rules. And playing by entirely

不同的规则。你能提前拿到问题清单。公关团队会安排好一切——演员上脱口秀的原因往往就是，这些习惯说别人台词的艺人能突然讲出完美轶事，因为他们早知道会被问什么。大家都心知肚明这很假。而艾米莉亚·德·穆伦堡的节目精髓就在于，她故意通过剪辑让对话显得更尴尬，除非真的有趣，否则再好的段子也会被剪掉。

different rules. You get the questions in advance. The publicist you know, the reason that someone goes on a chat show, an actor often to who is maybe not you know, who often says other people's words, and then they come out with these perfect anecdotes is because they know what they're going to get asked. And everyone sort of knows that, and it's phony. And the whole point of Emilia de Muldenburg's thing is that, I mean, some of the questions, and she deliberately edits it to make it look even more awkward and even more you know, she'll let them talk, but then that anecdote will just she'll she'll happily kill her darlings and unless it's funny, it doesn't get in.

没错。她的剪辑方式与那些坐在桌子对面进行的传统深夜访谈截然不同，甚至和沙发访谈也完全不同。她刻意打破了所有常规。嘉宾不知道下一个问题是什么，听她提问时你甚至觉得她自己都不知道要问什么。

Yeah. And you can edit in a different way than you can if you're sitting down with someone opposite the desk on a late night show and doing the normal interview or even on the sofa. All of those things, she deliberately has disrupted. They don't know what's coming next. She she you know, when you hear her say it, you almost think she doesn't know what's coming next.

虽然有时候能看出她其实准备得非常充分。

And sometimes it's implied she's incredibly well prepared, actually.

这就是关键，就像《辣度挑战》里的肖恩·肖恩·埃文斯一样。你知道吗？天啊。

That's the key, which which is same as Sean Sean Evans on Hot Ones. You know? Oh my god.

我是说，他的研究太荒谬了。

I mean, his research is ridiculous.

关键在于看起来随性，但背后下足功夫。这一直是那些伟大事物的核心法则。就像格雷厄姆·诺顿，他的脱口秀之所以精彩，是因为他做足了准备，却又表现得像是即兴发挥。

The key is look ramshackle, but do the work. And that's that's always been the key on any of those great things. Like Graham Norton, the reason Graham Norton is a brilliant chat show is he has done all of the work, but then he sort of throws it away and pretends he

根本没准备过。

hasn't had it.

没错，这才是真正的关键。作为电视制作人，我看她坚持了十年，这非常非常了不起。你能看出她在思考。我不知道...

Yeah. That that's the absolute key. The TV producer in me looks at her doing ten years, which is very, very impressive. And you can see her thinking. I don't know.

我们有时会听她聊起未来规划，这很有趣。她在这个相对新兴的职业——YouTuber领域深耕了十年，本质上就是自己品牌的创造者。她的视频时长八分钟，每月一期。要知道，对她来说做半小时脱口秀会更难，因为她始终在扮演某种角色。这一切始于她17岁时——'我要稍微偏离真实自我，假装在进行约会'。

We hear her talking about it a bit sometimes about what's next, which is interesting. She's ten years into this what is quite a new profession, the idea of being a YouTuber and and being someone who essentially is is their own brand and and their own creator. And her things you say, they're eight minutes long and they're once a month. And, you know, it's it's harder for her to do, like, a half hour chat show because she is slightly still playing a character. Because the very, very beginning of this, the genesis of this when she's 17 is, oh, I'm slightly gonna take one step aside from who I am and slightly pretend I'm doing a date.

我是在约会，但也在假装...是的。所以她从未能完全做真实的自己。不过当她展现真我时——如今在采访中越来越常见——她表现得无比出色。总有一天她会明白：'知道吗？我其实可以做真实的自己。'

I am doing a date, but I'm also pretending I'm doing a Yeah. And so she's never quite been able to be exactly herself. The bits where you see her being herself, which you you see more and more often these days in the in the interviews, she's unbelievably good at. And at some point, she will work out, oh, do know what? I can actually just be mean.

我听说她在写一部浪漫喜剧，不知道是不是真的。她说故事背景设定在炸鸡店约会那种场景，这让我想到——抱歉，这真是个题外话，我们得另找时间专门讨论这个。YouTube会不会推出类似YouTube Premium的服务？因为如果她真的拍了浪漫喜剧，或许YouTube会像之前讨论的那样在影院上映一周，还是说直接在YouTube上发布？他们最终会这么做吗？毕竟像Mr. Beast这些人都在说想转投亚马逊，想做游戏节目，他们内心多少还是向往传统媒体或电影之类的东西。

Well, I heard she's writing a rom com, and I wonder if that's true. And she said it's in the chicken shop date space, and that made me think I mean, sorry. This is a real sidebar, and we'll have to talk about this on a completely separate item another time. Are YouTube gonna do, like, YouTube premium where you're starting to have because if she does do a romantic comedy, I mean, maybe YouTube would release it in theaters for one week for reasons as previously discussed, but or or does it just does she do something on YouTube? Are they actually going to eventually because all of these people, can see like mister Beast saying, oh, I want to go to Amazon because I want I want to do this game show and I want to do things that they still slightly believe legacy media or films or whatever it is.

某种程度上，他们依然渴望这类形式。YouTube会不会把所有内容都纳入旗下，推出类似YouTube Premium的服务？我知道已经有YouTube Premium，但我想问的是会不会包含这类内容？毕竟我们说过他们在流媒体奖项上击败了Netflix，但现在显然YouTube才是主要竞争对手。

They still all have that hankering for something a bit like that to some extent. Are they just gonna bring it all under the YouTube umbrella and they're gonna have something like YouTube? I've said YouTube Premium. I know you can have YouTube Premium, but what I mean is is there going to be some of that as well? Because, you know, we already said that they won the streaming awards Netflix, but now they're met obviously, we know their major competitor is YouTube.

就像我说的，Ted Sarandos被问到这个问题时反应很激烈——那是我唯一一次见他失态，因为他知道这即将发生。我在想他们是否会进军这个领域——

And as I said, Ted Sarandas got really prickly when asked about it because that's the one time I've ever seen him lose his cool because he knows it's coming. And I wonder whether they will move into something

我觉得制作成本会反向变化。新技术和AI会让制作成本大幅下降，以更低成本做出高端效果。但作为媒体观察者，看到她的状态让我感到疲惫——天啊，她必须拼命工作。全靠她一人支撑，这是她的公司，团队又非常精简。

like that. Well, I think as production costs, I think it'll sort of happen the other way around, which is production costs are gonna absolute are gonna come down so much with new technologies and and AI and things like that that is gonna make things look premium at a at a much cheaper price point. But if I have a media demolder bug, the one thing I feel when I see her is is it it makes you feel quite tired because I think, my god, she's had to graft. And it's all on her, and it's her company. And I know she's got a a very small team.

没错。但她每个月都在推销新东西：'怎么推广这个？怎么推广那个？'

Yeah. But it's she has been selling herself every month. This is new thing. How do we promote this? How do we promote that?

传统媒体中有人替你打理这些事务，也有稳定收入。无论本周收视率如何，薪水照常发放。而她十年来不仅要创作，还要处理商业事务，意识到全部收入都维系于个人品牌——这种处境确实令人不安。

And then the one thing you have in legacy media is somebody else is looking after a lot of that stuff for you, and somebody is paying you. And you know what you're getting paid, it doesn't matter if you get past the ratings this week that you did last week. The money is still coming in. So she's had ten years now of having to do that, not only doing the creative stuff, but doing the business stuff and and recognizing that all of her money depends on who she is, which is quite a scary Yeah. Place to be, I would say.

另外据说（我觉得正在变化）人们从手机转向电视的年龄中位数大约是27岁左右。她的观众群体是和她一起成长起来的，正好处于这个年龄段。他们会追随她吗？我认为绝对会。

And also that they say I think this is changing. They say that the median age at which people sort of slightly change from, you know, watching their screens to watching the big TV is kinda 27, late twenties or or something like that. And she's got a an audience who's grown up with her, who was sort of in that demographic. So it's do they follow her? My view would be they absolutely will follow her.

那个中位数年龄会不断攀升再攀升。也许他们是在大屏幕上观看内容，但他们看的是YouTube的大屏版。但我认为她就是一个绝佳的例子，十年前21岁时就做了件非常非常聪明的事，那时别人都没在做，而现在人人都在做。而她已领先了十年。说实话，我真心为她脱帽致敬，

That that median age will go up and up and up and up. And maybe they're watching things on big screen, but they're watching YouTube on the big screen. But I think she's like a perfect example of doing something very, very smart at the age of twenty one, ten years ago that other people were not doing, and now everybody is doing. But she's got a ten year head start. And I think, honestly, absolute hats off to her for

做得完全迷人呢。是的，而且精彩绝伦，是真正的英国成功故事。

making Completely charming Yeah. And wonderful, and a real British success story.

正是如此。制作优质内容，按自己的方式行事，我确实... 敬祝再来个十年辉煌。

Exactly that. Making great content, doing it on our own terms, and I'd yeah. It's here's to another ten years of it.

而且，你知道，说不定还能和安德鲁·加菲尔德擦出爱情火花。我只是... 我懂的。

And, you know, maybe romance with Andrew Garfield. I just I know.

那会很美好。那确实会很美好。

That would be nice. That would be nice.

我们的德鲁。

The Drew.

现在说到AI和降低制作成本，我们想聊聊一部叫《小魔怪》的小动画电影。

Now talking of of AI and lower production costs, we wanna talk about, say, a little animated film called Critters.

《小魔怪》。现在OpenAI要拍电影了，这事必须成。《小魔怪》是部小成本电影，由OpenAI的创意人员查德·尼尔森编剧执导，我觉得挺有意思，不过那个部门怎么说呢，总让人觉得有点阴森。

Critters. Now OpenAI is making a movie. It has to happen. Critters was a little movie. It was a short written and directed by a guy called Chad Nelson, who's a sort of creative at OpenAI, which I think is interesting, but also somehow, you know, potentially very sinister department anyhow.

这部短片的设定是：大卫·爱登堡风格的画外音来到一片丛林或森林，里面住着些叫不上名字的小动物——不是松鼠那种常见生物，更像是皮克斯动画里的奇幻生物。

And the premise of this little short was that a David Attenborough type voice over comes to a jungle or a forest of little woodland creatures, which are who are you know, they're not they're not recognizable. They're not squirrels or anything. They're kind of it's kind of like pixar like creatures.

我决定管它们叫‘魔怪崽’。

I'm gonna call them critters.

魔怪崽，就是魔怪崽。

Critters. They're critters.

顺便说下，用英式拼写‘zed’结尾。怕你们没听清，是带zed的‘critterz’。哦对，我们都听出来了。

With a zed. By the way, if in case it's not obvious, it is critters with a zed. Oh, yeah. We listen. We were all assuming that.

没错没错，那个zed发音特别重。他们把Doll e生成的画面和

Yeah. Yeah. I you could hear the zed. It was a hard zed. So they combined the visuals from Doll e with

就是OpenAI的

Which is which is OpenAI's

第一部作品采用了真人配音，并在众多电影节上展映。后来他用Sora技术进行了重制，这算是它的下一代版本。现在他们打算以此为基础，作为一部故事长片的起点，该片将在前期制作、制作和后期全程使用AI技术。影片仍会采用真人配音，合作方是伦敦的Vertigo Films公司，参与编写《帕丁顿熊在秘鲁》的两位编剧将负责剧本。有趣的是——其实有很多亮点——他们表示，就像《玩具总动员》革新了动画行业一样，这次将是又一次重大突破。

one, yeah, with human voice actors, and they showed it at lots of festivals. And then he later remastered it with Sora, which is kind of the next generation version of it. And they are now going to use this as the basis for a jumping off point for a feature film, which uses AI throughout pre production, production and post. It will have human voice actors And it they're doing it with Vertigo Films who are based in London, and two of the people who wrote Paddington in Peru are going to write it. And what's interesting about it well, lots of things are interesting about it, but they're sort of saying, oh, in the way that Toy Story revolutionized animation, this is like the next level of that.

他们还提醒说，别忘了《玩具总动员》刚问世时，人们都在惊叹‘天啊，电脑动画！但我们还是想要传统手绘动画’。

And and also they're saying, oh, don't forget when Toy Story came out, everyone's going, oh my god, CGI. We know we want traditional animation.

制片人。没错。而且，

Producers. Yeah. And again,

这完全是一回事。只是新技术而已。

it's it's it's exactly the same as that. It's just it's just a new technology.

他们就是这么说的。但显然这意味着，众所周知动画制作极其昂贵，耗时非常长，即便使用电脑技术，不再像迪士尼黄金时代那样手工逐帧绘制。所以这将影响制作周期和劳动力需求。最令人震惊的是他们宣称要在九个月内完成，对于动画电影来说——要知道，比如皮克斯的《寻梦环游记》（我超爱这部）花了七年，《埃利奥》也用了五年。

That that this is what they're saying. But what it means, obviously, is that animation, as we know, is incredibly expensive, and it takes a very, very long time to do even with computers, even when they're not drawing the cells, painstaking by hand as they used to in the heyday of Walt Disney. So it's going to affect timing and labor. Now what's fascinating about it is they say, we're going to make it in nine months, which for an animated film is, I mean, you know, like, I think something like Coco for Pixar took which I love, by the way, took seven years. Elio, which Pixar, it took five years.

他们明知那是个失败品——为此不得不调整上映日期以免影响财报电话会议，动用了数千人，结果创下皮克斯史上最差开画成绩。不算营销成本可能就耗资两亿美元，却遭遇皮克斯史上最低首映票房，根本没人看。

They knew they had a turkey, which was I had to move the release date so it didn't interfere with an earnings call and it involved thousands of people and it was their lowest opening ever. It probably cost them $200,000,000 without marketing and it was their lowest opening ever for Pixar. Nobody saw it.

简直像是，

It was like,

Pixel有史以来最差的开局。

Pixel's worst ever opening.

所以这是九个月。

So this is nine months.

不。不。他们想要

No. No. They wanted

3000万美元。

$30,000,000.

3000万美元。好吧。听起来还是像

$30,000,000. Okay. It still sounds like

相当多。

quite a lot.

是啊。嗯，他们打算——他们打算带它去戛纳，所以我们看看法国影评人对此有何评价。

Yeah. Well, they're gonna they're gonna take it they want to take it to Cannes, so we'll see if French cineasts have something to say about that.

我觉得他们会接受的。

I think they'll be fine about it.

他们都很放松。或许他们会在那里找到发行商，或许他们已经有了。众所周知，家庭题材在票房上表现非常出色，从某种程度上说，是孩子们支撑着影院的运营，但动画片，尤其是原创动画则不然。真正卖座的要么是知名IP，要么改编自电子游戏，或者是像《头脑特工队2》这样的续集。实际上，原创动画处境艰难，电影制作周期又如此漫长。对于那些只想讲个简单动画故事的人来说，这几乎是不可能的，因为投入成本实在太高了。

They're all so relaxed. And maybe they'll find a distributor there, maybe they'll already have one. Well, the family genre as we know is doing brilliantly at the box office, Kids sort of keep the lights on in Cinemas to some extent, but animation, original animation is not. Original animation is all of this stuff that's doing really well is known IP or it's based on video games or it's sequels or whatever like Inside Out two, but actually animation, original animation is in trouble and films, they take so long to do. Anyone who wants to just do a simple animation story, it's almost anathema to them because they're spending so much money on them.

制作周期长到让创意都——其实，我接触过很多深入参与这类项目的人，他们最终都选择退出，说‘我坚持不下去了，因为每个细节都要精雕细琢’。他们不敢留任何侥幸，因为成本太高了。这些作品因其高昂成本和漫长周期，已经变成了——

They take so long that the idea and actually, you know, lots of people who I've talked to people who've written quite deep into these and then just come off them and said, I can't do it anymore because everything has to be so detailed. Like, they don't leave anything to chance because it's so expensive. They've become these things that by virtue of how expensive and how long they take, every sort of And,

还是那个观点：如果你是创作者，你想要的应该是‘笑点’和观众之间最短的路径。但动画创作恰恰相反，怎么可能——

again, that that idea that if you're a creative, what you want is the shortest possible route between Yeah. Your joke and an and an audience. And to something like animation, it's the exact opposite of that. How can

你怎么可能拍出符合时代精神的电影？怎么可能做出那种充满活力的作品？

you make a zeitgeisty film? How can you do something exuberant, something that

除非你是《南方公园》团队，故意走低成本路线。

just Unless you're South unless you're South Park and you're you're deliberately low five.

那是另一回事。那是电视剧。动画领域怎么可能有低成本独立爆款？不可能的，根本不存在。

And that's different. And that's TV. And, you know, how can you have low budget indie hits in animation? You can't, and they they don't exist.

他们即将开始。

They're about to.

他们即将开始。确实如此，因为这将花费3000万美元。还有件有趣的事，斯科特·加洛韦在最近的《G教授》通讯中提到，他将《神奇四侠》的演职人员与多家上市公司的员工进行了对比。《神奇四侠》拥有3271人的强大团队，我很期待他们未来能参与其他作品。但像加密货币交易所Coinbase的员工数量也只比这略多一些。

They're about to. Well, yes, because this is gonna cost $30,000,000. And another interesting thing, actually, in Scott Galloway's news Professor G newsletter recently, he compared the the cast and crew of of Fantastic four with, the staff of a number of public companies. There are 3,271 strong crew of Fantastic four, and I appreciate they're gonna hopefully go on to other work. But, like, Coinbase, the crypto exchange, has only slightly more than that.

他们的员工数量远超Lyft、TripAdvisor、Reddit等公司，甚至超过一些资产管理公司。要知道Mr. Beast团队才50人。这真是个疯狂的行业，居然需要这么多人参与。而且别忘了，《神奇四侠》很多人员其实是在后期制作阶段。

Like, they have so many more employees than Lyft, than TripAdvisor, than Reddit, than, like, asset management companies. You know, mister Beast employs 50 people. Yeah. So you're thinking this is such a mad industry where there are that many people on this. And also you're thinking, hang on a second, a lot of those people on Fantastic four are in effect and they're in post production.

人们以为现在电影都是电脑制作的。观众对超级英雄片和动画电影已经习以为常，觉得这些本质上是电脑制作的。Vertigo影业声称这是人类主导、AI辅助的作品。正如我所说，他们将其定位为一种实验——谁知道呢？这3000万美元能成功吗？

So people think computers are making films already. They're very, very used to superhero things and animation films that they believe are essentially made by computers, Vertigo films. Say it's human led, but it's AI assisted. And they are, as I say, they're casting it as a sort of experiment to say, who knows? Does this $30,000,000 work?

我们能快速完成吗？能在限定时间内搞定吗？我认为他们还在暗示所有参与的艺术家都会获得某种后端分成，这是...

Can we do it quickly? Can we get it done in that time? And I think they're also saying that all the artists involved will have something in the back end, which is

我们...

I we

自克林顿政府时期以来我就没听过这种说法了，理查德。

haven't heard that since the Clinton administration, Richard.

我认为AI将接管动画行业。这是必然趋势，目前许多大型制片厂由于种种政治原因，还无法制作完全由AI生成的动画电影。

I think that AI is going to take over animation. It just is, and lots of the big studios are not able to make a fully AI animated film at the moment for lots of you know, for political reasons.

还有商品相关的原因。

And goods related reasons.

以及商品相关的原因。所以需要一个小型玩家来打破这个局面，这正是现在发生的。Vertigo你提到的

And goods related reasons. So you need a smaller player to break the seal, which is what's happening here. So Vertigo You talking

那个不起眼的弱者OpenAI。对，就是那个潜力无限的小工作室。

about the little old underdog open AI. Yeah. The little studio that could.

那个潜力无限的小工作室。但你知道，这就是为什么...哦不，Vertigo并没有在制作OpenAI，他们什么都没做。好吧，总得有人迈出第一步。

The little studio that could. But, you know, that's why, you know, oh, no. Vertigo are making OpenAI aren't making anything. Okay. Because somebody has to do that.

一旦有人成功突破，请放心，我们会首先讨论《小魔怪》这样的作品。未来会有数百部类似作品问世，实际上已有数百部动画短片了——多到让人应接不暇。但说到动画长片，五年后人们回顾时会觉得非常奇怪：'什么？你们居然还在讨论AI制作动画电影？'

And as soon as someone's done it and then, know, rest assured there will be so Critters is the first one we'll talk about. There will be hundreds of these things, and there's already hundreds of animated shorts. I mean, you know, that you can't move for them. But these feature films, it will look very peculiar in five years time when people look back and go, sorry. Why are why are you talking about AI making an animated feature film?

我的意思是，到那时所有动画都会由AI制作了。而现在这部就像是首发列车，只要市场接受这种形式，传统制片厂将别无选择，只能承认：'我们现在必须在价格上竞争，也必须采用这项技术，必须使用AI。'

I mean, that's they make they make all of them now. But this is sort of the first cab cab off the rank. So the second that this is acceptable, the legacy studios will have no other choice but to say that we can't we have to to compete on price now. We also have to use this technology. We have to use AI.

百分比。所以他们真正等待的只是这个技术成为行业标准，由一些小玩家先行采用后，他们才会跟进。而且之前资金供应源源不断。我们现在知道的是，目前有荒谬数量的风险投资正涌入AI领域。

Percent. And so that's all they're waiting for, really. They're waiting for this to become industry standard from some of the smaller players before they can jump in. There was also an endless supply of money. The one thing we know now is, I think, is an absurd amount of venture capital money is going to AI at the moment.

我是说，数万亿、数万亿的资金。这里有巨额资金用于制作内容、改进概念等各类事务。因此，AI将接管娱乐产业的很大一部分。这无疑会是首个被颠覆的领域。所以问题在于如何保护其中的人文元素。

I mean, trillions and trillions and trillions. There there is a huge amount of money here to make content, to improve the concept, all of those types of things. So AI is going to take over large bits of the entertainment business. Certainly, this this would be the first one. So it is a question of how do you then protect the human element of it.

有趣的是，查德·尼尔森——你提到的那个在内部首创AI生物的人

And funny enough, Chad Nelson, the guy you were talking about who made the very first critters inside

我是说，他深度参与了完整版AI的开发。

the AI. I mean, he's heavily involved in the in the feature version.

正如你所说，他是大型AI公司内部的创意人员。我看了他的一个采访视频，记得只有43次观看，但其中

So he, as you say, is a creative inside a big AI company. I I was watching an interview with him that I think it had 43 views views, but it was one

有一次是我看的。打赌。

of them was me. Bet.

我觉得非常有意思。他当时像是在海报节上。对，他在和某人交谈时说道：听着。

I've I've found it very interesting. He was he it was like poster festival. Yeah. He was talking to someone. And he was saying, look.

他说，当我如此近距离地与AI共事时，才意识到它产出的一切何其相似。他描述道，我看着所有这些作品，感觉自己正淹没在一片‘同质化的海洋’中——这就是AI带给你的。而他的工作，就是始终与那些负责编码创造的人共处一室。

I my job is he said, when he worked this closely with AI, you realize quite how similar everything it produces is. He said, I I look at all this stuff. I feel like I'm drowning in a he describes it as a sea of sameness. And that's what AI gives you. And he said, my job is always to sit in rooms with people whose job is to code and to create these things.

我的工作本质上是让这些内容变得优质，赋予其幽默感，使其有趣。我的职责是将这些引向人性化的方向——这或许是对未来走向的乐观展望。

My job is to essentially make this good. My job is essentially to make this humor. My my job is to make this funny. My job is to take this in a in in a in a human direction. And that would be the optimistic view of where this goes.

正如你所说，Critus团队中有两位参与《帕丁顿熊在秘鲁》的编剧。未来将涌现大量受雇写手从事这类工作。我始终认为，在编辑、写作等涉及AI的领域，存在某种不可复制的特质——那是房间里人类大脑独有的思考：观众此刻感受如何？这不可避免，我们必须竭力守护其中的人文内核。

And Critus, as you say, has got, two two of the guys who wrote on Paddington in Peru is there's going to be lots of writers for hire who are doing these things in the in the near future. And, you know, my view has always been in editing, in writing, all these AI things. There is an intangible thing that is not something that you can simply copy from what has gone before. It's it's a you've it's just a human brain in the room thinking how how how is an audience feeling. So it's I think it's inevitable, and we have to try and protect as much humanity within it as as possible.

但核心问题在于：仍存在大规模未解决的版权盗窃现象。是的，这正在持续发生。我是说...

But the real thing is that there is a still a massive unanswered copyright theft thing Yes. Going on there. Mean, there

长久以来，这一切都建立在剽窃作品之上。

was time. All of this has been is based on stolen work.

所有内容都是偷来的。暂且抛开其他不谈，关键在于接下来会发生什么？我们会找到解决之道——但现状就是剽窃。所以...

All of it is stolen. So forget for a minute everything else, then what's gonna happen, and we'll work out how that happens. It is stolen. So it's

我同意。但你不觉得...我的意思是，你察觉到任何政府有意对此采取行动吗？他们根本不在乎。

I agree. But don't you think I mean, do you sense any appetite with any of the governments to do anything about this? They don't care.

几乎每天都有律师找上门来，说我们要起诉那些大型AI公司。而且老实说，

I get I get I get approached almost every day by lawyers saying we we're gonna launch a suit against, you know, these big AI companies. And quite rightly, by

这么做很合理，因为大家都认同。我希望

the way, because people agree. I want there to be

人们确实...所以你只是在权衡哪种方式最合适。

People have people have so you're just trying to work out which is the the right one.

该找哪位律师来处理。

Lawyer to do it.

不，不是找律师。而是找到正确的处理方式。什么是恰当的途径？该起诉哪些公司？因为他们必须为此付出代价，毕竟他们确实窃取了成果。我坚信这一点。

Well, no. Just the right way to do it. What's the right approach so that, you know, who are the right companies to sue? Because they they are gonna have to pay because they did steal it. I mean, it's it's Absolutely believe so.

各国法律都适用。

Laws in every country.

需要政府协助，所以必须合法合规。

Get any help of the governments, so it has to be legal.

正是如此。政府嘛，你懂的，如果我是政府，我会真的想...我是说，这就是当今的问题。这些公司太...嗯，政府

Exactly that. The government's quite you know, if I was a government, would I really wanna I mean, that's the problem these days. These companies are so in Well, the government's

都被收买了。

are all captured.

对，而且他们已经有够多麻烦了。但说到底，是的，这确实是被窃取了。盗窃行为已经发生，那些创作者们...你知道的，说AI在创造这些很容易。不。

And that yeah. And they've they've got enough problems. But so, yeah, I it it is stolen. Theft has occurred, and creatives who've you know, it's it's all very well saying AI is making this. No.

AI正在审视每一帧动画并复制它们。

AI is looking over every bit of animation ever made and copying it.

但如果你看看...好吧。举个例子，虽然你可能没聊过这个——埃里森家族已经收购了派拉蒙，现在又想买下华纳兄弟探索频道，我认为他们极有可能成功收购。

But if you look at something if okay. Let's look at as an example, which you haven't probably talked about, but the Ellisons who have bought Paramount and now want to buy Warner Brothers Discovery, and and I think it's a strong likelihood that they will acquire it.

是啊。

Yeah.

拉里·埃里森——我记得他几周前刚成为世界首富。他们几个总是在榜首位置你争我夺，对吧？你觉得他收购是为了让他的'尼泊儿子'继承传统媒体工作室，还是另有大动作？我认为他们图谋更大。

You've got Larry Ellison who I I think was a couple of weeks ago became the richest man in the world. I they're always jostling. It was always up and down in those top four, aren't they? Anyway, do you think he is buying it for his Nepo son who because they want to be to to run a legacy media studio, or do you think they're trying to do something much bigger? I think they're trying to do something much bigger.

话说回来，他之所以能短暂成为世界首富，正是因为他在人工智能领域押下了重注。

Well, world well, the reason he became the richest man in the world, however, briefly was the huge punts he had taken on AI.

甲骨文公司——我是说，他们显然希望以更具战略意义的方式整合资源。华纳兄弟吸引他们的地方，毫无疑问是其庞大的特许经营权体系。关于这个问题的猜测性观点是：面对窃取所有内容的事实，他们究竟会采取什么行动？假设他们将华纳与派拉蒙合并后开始制作内容，你可能会说‘好吧，那就给我做个《鬼灭之刃》看看’。

And Oracle is I mean, so I think they want to join things up in a much more significant way. And what they like about Warner's, obviously, is it has a huge number of franchises. What what was as just as a sort of speculative idea about this is in saying, what are they gonna do with the fact they've stolen everything? They say say they have Warners and Paramount together and they start making these because you're gonna be saying, okay. Well, try and make me a demon slayer.

这是三千万预算。顺便说一句，我可是世界首富。有什么区别？嗯...其实我并不是很喜欢这个方案。

Here's 30,000,000. By the way, I'm the richest man in the world. What's the difference? Yep. Oh, I don't really like it.

这个方案确实行不通。重做一版吧。但这就是人们一直在强调的——当电影产业膨胀到‘大而不能倒’的程度时，它们反而真的会崩塌。无论是耗资巨大的动画电影，还是烧钱的超级英雄系列，只要有几个项目失败就会造成严重后果。你可以同时启动十个项目，然后不断淘汰不满意的方案反复修改——这些作品永远处于可调整状态。

It didn't really work. Do another one. But this is what people have been saying all along, which once the thing, the films had become too big to fail really that, and yet they did fail, but hugely expensive animations or hugely expensive kind of studio temple movies or superhero franchise or whatever it is that doesn't work out is very significant problem if you have a few of them on the books. So you can try seeding 10 of them and saying, well, I don't like this one, don't like that one or this one, go back and do it again. You can constantly adjust these.

这些作品永远没有最终版本，因为当天下午收到反馈意见后，你只要输入新指令就能立即微调。派拉蒙内部会出现这样的声音：‘我们只用过派拉蒙和华纳的素材，为什么不能用来训练模型？’我认为这种情况终将发生。员工们也明白：‘如果不为这些公司工作，我还能去哪里？’

There's nothing finished ever about these because you can just give it another prompt and it can change it slightly in the same afternoon you got the notes. What happens within Paramount where they say, well, we're just we've only used Paramount and Warner stuff. Why shouldn't we be able to train on this? And then we're gonna I think that's what will happen. And the employees also feel like, well, where else am I gonna go if I don't work for these companies?

现存电影公司数量正在急剧减少。好莱坞终将自我吞噬，因为他们只在乎利益。唯有艺术家们能够筑起最后防线——毕竟指望高管们是不现实的。

There's smaller and smaller number of studios that still exist. They're all going to fold because it's Hollywood and they just care about their money. It's up to the artists to to to push back, and that's probably the last frontier because it's not going to be the executives.

我们希望见证一场根本性变革。人们始终渴望人性化连接与艺术创作，每个时代都会涌现杰出的创作者——从未出现过创造力衰退的一代。我完全同意这代人缺乏创造力的说法是无稽之谈。天才创作者永远存在，他们总会找到属于自己的独特领域。

The hope is that we have a sea change, and people do do want human connection and human art, and there will always be brilliant creatives. There there's never a generation that has fewer brilliant creatives than another generation ever. There's no I agree. Of this generation are not creative. There's always brilliant creatives, and they will always be looking for something to do, and they will always be looking to find their own niche.

随着制作成本骤降，他们也能创作出伟大的艺术作品。正如你所说，如果你是拉里·爱迪生和大卫·爱迪生，这本质上就是一张印钞许可证。但如果你是一位真正伟大的艺术家，希望你能有更多选择。无论如何，我们讨论的就是这个命题。

And as production costs plummet, they will be able to make great art as well. As you say, if you're Larry Edison and David Edison, it's it's it's essentially a it's going to be a license to print money. But if you are a true great artist, hopefully, there will be options open to you. Either way, you know, we're talking about this thesis.

你或许能制作一部符合时代精神的有趣动画，而且不需要两亿美元营销预算。

You might be able to make a fun animation that's zeitgeisty and that doesn't cost $200,000,000 without marketing.

是啊。我是说，但我们讨论的是

Yeah. I mean, but we we're talking

七年时间。

about seven years.

我们讨论的是这些小家伙，人们回顾此刻时，会像当年坐在法国电影院里以为火车要冲出银幕的观众一样——因为我们正处在某个即将变得无比庞大的事物的最最开端，资金早已就位，所有人都已布局。好莱坞当下的每个动作都在盘算：如何利用AI带来的巨大成本削减、营销节省和研究便利，因为这必将成为淘金热。但我希望新一代的艾米莉亚·穆尔登伯格们、作家们、创作者们和艺术家们也知道，总会有足够多的人愿意付费让他们创作不同类型的艺术。你现在就能看到这个产业的雏形正在形成——粉丝们会为作品众筹。

We're talking about critters here, and people will look back on this like the people who sat in the French cinema and thought the train was gonna come out of the screen at them because we are at the very, very beginning of something that is about to become absolutely humongously huge, and the money is already baked into it. They've everyone's already positioned themselves. That's what every single move in Hollywood is about at the moment is how am I gonna take advantage of the huge cost savings and the huge marketing savings and the huge research savings that AI is gonna bring me because it is it's gonna be an absolute boom town. But I hope that the Emilia de Muldenburgs of this next generation and the writers and the creators and the artists also know that there will be enough people out there who will willingly pay them to make a different sort of art. And you can see the beginnings of that industry starting now where people will fandoms will fund things.

这感觉像会出现一个影子产业，希望它也能孕育出非凡的作品。这周有什么推荐吗？

And that feels like there there will be a shadow industry, which hopefully will produce some extraordinary stuff as well. Any recommendations this week?

我有两个推荐。一个是上周就想推荐的，但我得了新冠。这是篇论文式随笔，詹姆斯·马里奥特在他的《文化资本》Substack上发表的，很多人讨论过，题为《后文字社会的黎明》，非常有趣。如果你还没读过，正如我说的，这是篇探讨文化如何变得后文字化的论文——我们正在丧失阅读和理解能力，这一切都被智能手机扼杀了，它正让人们变得愚蠢。

I've got two recommendations. One I meant to make last week, but I had COVID. And this is for an essay, a treatise Essay. Written by James Marriott on his Cultural Capital Substack, lots of people have talked about this, it's called The Dawn of the Post Literate Society, it's so interesting. If you haven't read it, it's a treatise as I say about how sort of culture is becoming post literate, we're losing the ability to read, to understand and it's all been killed and it's traceable to the smartphone and it's making people stupid.

这就是为什么我在节目稍早前想到，我们可以看到智商正在下降，可以看到读写能力

This is why I was thinking about a bit further up the show, which was I we can see that IQ is declining. We can see that literacy

我能感觉到。我能感觉到自己的智商在下降。顺便说一句，詹姆斯·马里奥特的Substack是少数能让我觉得智商可能提高一点的东西。

I can feel it. I can feel mine go. And That that substack, by way, James Marriott's substack, is one of the few things that makes me feel like my IQ might go up a tiny bit. It's

他真是太出色了。

it's He's so brilliant.

它充满了绝妙的想法，而且写作方式让你觉得，哦，是的，我懂了。所以我强烈推荐

Well, it's full of great ideas and it's written in a way you think, oh, yeah, I get that. It's so so I that strongly recommend

大家都读一读这个。它绝对精彩。已经有很多人讨论过了，它叫《后文字社会的黎明》。我的另一个推荐是，我们对内森·菲尔德讨论得不够多，我刚看了《排练》，现在可以在Sky上观看，太惊艳了。

everybody reads this. It's absolutely it's fantastic. And lots of people have talked about it anyway. It's called the dawn of the post literate society. My other recommendation is, we don't talk enough about like, I mean, maybe about Nathan Fielder in this country, but I'm just watching the rehearsal, which you can watch on Sky now, it is so amazing.

显然这是独树一帜的类型。说到未来可能不会花钱让人做的事，但这是最非凡的作品。他帮助人们应对——你看过吗？

I mean, it's obviously a genre of one. It I mean, talk about things that you might not pay people to do in the future, but it is the most extraordinary thing. He helps people deal have you seen it?

是的，我看过。很难描述它到底是什么。

Yes. I have seen it. It's very difficult to describe what it is.

他以近乎强迫症的方式帮助人们为艰难的生活时刻或对话做准备，那种为了在十分钟对话中堵住生活可能抛出的所有变数而进行的预先规划，简直超乎想象。如果你还没看过，快去看吧，我觉得他太棒了。要是你连他早期的《纳森为你》都没看过，那绝对是错过宝藏了。

He helps people prepare in the most sort of anal way for difficult life moments or conversations, and the level of preplanning to, like, close off all the different curveballs life might throw at you for the in a ten minute conversation is is beyond. If you haven't seen it, watch it because I just think he's so amazing. And if you haven't seen Nathan for You, which is his earlier series, I mean, absolutely brilliant.

他确实是独一无二的。确实。

He's sort of in a category of one Yeah. As well.

我是说

I mean

所以如果你...如果你...如果你喜欢他前二十分钟的表现，后面还有更多精彩等着你。

So if you if you if you like the first twenty minutes that you see of him, you've got an an awful lot to enjoy.

坚持看下去就知道了。真的。电视上再找不出第二档这样的节目，这么说吧。

Just stay with it. Yeah. Mean, there's nothing else like it on telly. Let's put it that way.

我正准备去iPlayer看弗雷迪·弗林托的《梦想之地》新一季，这节目里他带着不玩板球的孩子们——这么说听起来很无聊——教他们打板球。但这节目...这节目太棒了。它讲孩子，讲青少年，讲成长中的尴尬，讲爱与尊重与希望。

And I'm heading to iPlayer for the new series of Freddie Flinto's Field of Dreams, which is where he takes young kids who don't play cricket. This makes it sound so boring and makes them play cricket. But it it's It's It's brilliant. It's yeah. It's it's it's about kids, and it's about teenager, and it's about awkwardness, and it's about love and respect and hope.

也讲他自己。

And about him.

如今情况不同了，第一季原本并非如此，但现在确实如此。你能看到他经历的一切。他绝对是整个故事的核心人物。你在第一季中能看到他给予这些孩子们的一切，那非常美好。现在你也能看到孩子们回馈给他的，同样美好。

And these days as well, the first series wasn't, and now it is. And you see what what he's been through. He's he's an extraordinary presence at at the heart of this. And you see you could see in the first series what he gave to these kids, which was beautiful. You now also see what they give to him, which is also beautiful.

这真的是一部非常非常精彩的节目。

It's it's it's it's a really it's a really wonderful watch.

好的，今天就到这里。我们照例会在周四回来进行问答环节。

Right. That about wraps us up. We will be back as always for questions and answers on Thursday.

而周五针对会员的内容，我们将回顾《布偶历险记》的历史。确切地说，我们要追溯他们在成功之前经历的一切，这个过程真的非常非常漫长。

And on Friday for our members, we are looking to the history of the Muppets. We're literally looking to the history of everything that happened before they got successful, which is which and which took a really, really, really long time.

《布偶》的起源故事，你能想象我有多喜欢这些内容。

The Muppet origin story of how you imagine how much I like those.

好的，那个故事里还有各种曲折离奇的情节。如果想成为会员享受无广告收听等服务，可以访问restis娱乐官网注册。

Okay. There's all sorts of twists and turns in that as well. If you want to become a member, ad free listening and so on. It's the rest is entertainment.com. You can sign up there.

对其他听众，我们周四见。

But for everyone else, we'll see you on Thursday.

周四见。本节目由天空电视台为您呈现。

See you on Thursday. This episode was brought to you by Sky.

Sky Glass是天空电视台推出的新款电视，它让您的旧电视感觉像彩排。这就是在您客厅里上演的大银幕首映。

Sky Glass is the new television from Sky, the kind that makes your old telly feel like a dress rehearsal. This is the big screen premiere right there in your living room.

因为它不仅关乎像素和设置，更关乎体验。Sky Glass具备自动调节功能，能智能适配您观看的内容，内置的杜比音效使对话更清晰、脚步声更近、风暴声更震撼。

Because it's not just about pixels and settings, it's about the experience. Sky Glass has auto adjust, which cleverly adapts to whatever you're watching, and the built in Dolby sound makes dialogue sharper, footsteps nearer, storms louder.

探索天空自然频道的隐秘声景：青蛙鸣叫如铜管乐，蝙蝠振翅似响板，连寂静都仿佛为环绕声量身定制。这不是自然的记录，而是自然的混音。

Take the secret world of sound on Sky Nature. Frogs croak like brass sections, bats click like castanets, and even the hush between feels designed for surround sound. It's less like nature recorded, more like nature remixed.

还有大卫·爱登堡，他的声音比中央暖气更温暖，将幼年凯门鳄和徘徊鬣狗演绎成莎士比亚剧中的角色。这时您会明白Sky Glass不只是播放电视节目。

And then there's David Attenborough, his voice warmer than central heating, turning baby caimans and prowling hyenas into Shakespearean characters. That's when you realize Sky Glass doesn't just show TV.

它生来就是为了与内容协作，是每个精彩场景背后默默无闻的制片人。

It was built to collaborate with it, the unsung producer behind every great scene.

访问sky.com。需订阅相关天空电视套餐。建议宽带最低速度为30兆比特/秒。仅限18岁以上英国、海峡群岛及马恩岛用户。

Visit sky.com. Requires relevant Sky TV subscriptions. Broadband recommended minimum speed, 30 megabits per second. 18 plus, UK, Channel Islands, and Isle Of Man only.