曼城将受到何种处罚？

大家好，欢迎收听《The Rest Is Football》，我是加里，旁边是阿兰·希勒。

Hello and welcome to the rest is football with Alan Shearer and me, Gary.

今天的节目里，我们会回答你们关于曼城的问题，还有关于那115项指控的最新裁决。

On today's episode, we'll be answering your questions all about Manchester City and the latest verdict on the 115 charges.

为了聊这个话题，我们请来了记者、也是这方面的专家，德莱尼。

And to do that, we're joined by journalists and expert on this matter, Delaney.

米格尔，非常感谢你来做客。

Miguel, thank you very much for joining us.

我想过去这一周你应该挺忙的吧。

I imagine you've been quite busy over the last week or so.

我只想说，在我们开播之前，我觉得自从这事儿爆出来，是什么时候来着？

I'm just saying that before we came on, I think since this broke on, what was it?

嗯，其实我们上周五早上就听到风声了，准确说是上周四晚上，从那以后就一直没停过。

Well, we actually had murmurings on Friday morning, really Thursday evening last week, And since then, it's just been nonstop.

而且就算到了这周，感觉每隔几个小时，你以为事情要平息了，结果又有了新的升级。

And even this week, it feels like every few hours when you feel like it's maybe calming down, there's a new kind of escalation to the story.

但你看不到周二实际决定的主要进展，从那以后，像最新这个故事这样的元素，连首相都出来评论了。

But you don't see the kind of main development of the actual decision on Tuesday to since then elements like this latest story would ever had, the prime minister offering comment on it.

我这儿还真有首相的引述。

I've got actually the prime minister's quotes here.

安迪·伯纳姆说，我会非常担心失去他们，他指的是曼城的所有者。

Andy Burnham said, I would be really concerned to lose them, Manchester City's owners he's talking about.

他们一直是建设现代曼彻斯特的巨大合作伙伴。

They've been such a huge partner in the building of modern Manchester.

显然，把曼城打造成全球强队，我不能过多干预这个过程。

Obviously, the building of Manchester City into the global force that it is, I can't intervene more in the process.

我那样做是不对的。

It would be wrong for me to do that.

我认为，在没有真正研究所有细节之前就下结论是错误的，但显然这件事还在进行中，因为曼城仍然在抗辩，所以我觉得我不应该多说。

It would be wrong, I think, to jump to a conclusion before having really studied all the detail, but obviously it's ongoing because it's still contested by Manchester City, then I think it's right that I don't say much more.

我确实感谢城市足球集团和更广泛的老板们，他们不仅把钱投到了伊蒂哈德球场和周边的园区，还投到了这座城市。

I do actually thank the City Football Group and the wider ownership for the money that they didn't just put into the Etihad and the campus around it, but also into the city.

这让我想到第一个问题，米格尔，来自康纳的提问：公众在申诉程序之前就谴责曼城，这样做对吗？还是说，尽管他们在欧足联听证会上申诉成功，我们仍然应该保持谨慎？

It leads me perhaps to a first question, Miguel, and that is from Connor who asks, are the public right to condemn Manchester City prior to the appeal process or should we still be cautious after they were found not guilty on appeal during the UEFA hearing?

不过，他们赢得那场官司，难道不是因为过了时效期吗？

Although wasn't that because it was time barred that they won that bill?

对，那是在不同情况下的一个技术性问题。

Yeah that was down to a technicality in a different context.

听着，这其实是一个很直接的法律问题，关系到我们记者怎么谈论这件事，甚至可以说关系到这个故事的根本，比如能不能用“作弊”这个词。法律建议是可以用，因为核心程序已经结束了。

Look this is actually a very direct legal question for journalists and how we can speak about it right up to I would say fundamentals of this story like whether you can use the word cheat And the legal advice is we can because the core of the process is completed.

我们有了结果。

We have an outcome.

责任已经认定。

There is liability.

他们还在等待处罚，以及你提到的申诉。

They're still awaiting sanctioning and as you say appeal.

但申诉是一种选择。

But appeal is a choice.

很多俱乐部不会选择上诉，因为上诉往往会让事情变得更糟，处罚也可能更重。

A lot of clubs, they don't take up the option to appeal because often it can make things worse, can make sanctions worse.

所以目前来说，我们可以自由谈论结果是什么，判决是什么，也可以随意发表评论。

So as of right now, we can talk freely about what the outcome is, what the verdict is and I suppose freely use comments.

是的，作为记者，我们当然会说，在上诉未决之前，不会轻易下结论。

Yes, think like as journalists certainly we would always say no pending appeal.

你仍然可以说曼城坚称自己清白，但这和本周二之前的要求不一样了，因为现在指控已经被证实，或者几乎所有的指控都被证实了。

You would still say Citi insisted upon their innocence but that isn't the same requirement say as it was before Tuesday this week because I mean as of now the charges have been proven or almost all of the charges have been proven.

你提到过去一周左右你有多忙，不管是什么原因。

You said about the how busy you've been in the last week or so, whatever it may be.

我的意思是，这种舆论不会消失，尤其是当英超联赛回归时，因为我们将要关注的比赛，利物浦对阵曼城，在他们每场比赛之前，这种声音都会越来越大，不是吗？

I mean, the noise is not going to go away if anything, when Premier League football returns, because of the fixture that we're we're all gonna be looking at, Liverpool, Manchester City, leading up to every single game that they play, the noise will get louder, no?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

完全同意。

Completely.

而且你看，就算退一步说。

And look, even standing back from that.

所以基本上从2024年12月开始，我觉得我们很多人都对每次国际比赛日都高度警惕，因为预期是英超不想因为在一个英超赛季里公布这个重大结果而打乱比赛周的安排。

So basically since December 2024, I think a lot of us have been on high alert for every international break just because the expectation was that the Premier League, they wouldn't want to disrupt the kind of the match week by having this massive outcome in a Premier League.

而且可能有些问题会影响到球队，比如现在曼城的情况，这可能是无法避免的。

And there are issues maybe kind of how it affects teams even at City say at the moment that is potentially unavoidable.

但显然他们一直在继续，每次到了这个时候，总会有一些风声，你一开始会有点不以为然，因为你已经听过太多次了。

But obviously they keep going on and every time it comes around and there's a bit of a murmur you're initially a bit dismissive because you heard it so many times before.

但这次和之前的传闻立刻就很不一样。

This time it was immediately very different from the chatter back.

而且，正好说到比赛这一点，这显然是我们除了锦标赛之外最长的一次国际比赛间歇期。

But also, and just relevant to the point of the games, this is obviously the longest international break we've had outside the tournament.

所以基本上有很长很长的时间让这个故事的波澜不断涌来、不断升高。

So it's basically a long, long time for the waves of this story to keep coming round to rising.

是的，通常在这种情况，新闻周期里有大新闻的时候，比赛会打断它们。

And yeah, usually in these sort of situations where you've got kind of big stories in the news cycle, the games disrupt them.

所以就像经典的那样，其实这几乎是今年夏天或秋天那个因凡蒂诺危机的姊妹篇。

So like a classic, actually that is almost a sister story to this this summer or autumn, which was the Infantino crisis.

而且，我是说，过去几天讨论的一些内容真是令人惊讶，因为欧足联那边的人，或者说不管是谁，利用曼城这件事的注意力，从不同角度谈论治理问题。

And it's like, I mean, it's amazing some of the stuff that's been discussed about that in the last few days because ZIF kind of people in UEFA say or whatever using the distraction of Manchester City to talk about everything on top of governance matters in different ways.

但因凡蒂诺当时是寄希望于联赛回归，你知道，来转移对这个故事的注意力。

But Infantino say was banking on the leagues coming back to just, you know, distract from the story.

他确实是对的。

He was right.

在这种情况下，突然之间我们有了各种各样新的问题。

In this case, suddenly we have all manner of new questions.

我们有恩佐·马雷斯卡的首次新闻发布会。

We've got Enzo Moresca's first press conference.

我们还有曼城队第一次重新集结时将要发生的所有细节。

We've got all the details that are gonna happen when the Man City team get back together for the first time.

我是说，就这周和英格兰队训练营的人聊过，有些球员显然对此很感兴趣。

I mean, just from speaking to people around the England camp this week say, some of the players are obviously interested in it.

这是他们的队友。

This is their teammates.

我从几个消息来源听说，球员们注意到曼城球员们可能自然有些担忧。

I've heard from a few sources that players have noticed maybe naturally a bit of concern from the City players.

直到周二，我觉得曼城实际上还没跟球员们谈过，而且球员们说他们希望所有人都能聚在一起。

Up until Tuesday, I don't think City actually spoken to players, and actually, the players say they'd want them all back together.

大家都会看到鲁本·迪亚斯和哈兰德赛后交谈的视频，即使我们实际上不知道他们说了什么。

Everyone will have seen that video of Ruben Diaz and Haaland talking after the game even if we we don't actually know what was said to them.

然后，当然，正如你所说，艾伦，对手和场地。

And then, course, as you say, Alan, the opposition and the venue.

我的意思是，利物浦可能认为自己是从2009到2018年调查期间受影响最大的球队之一，如果不是最大的话。

I mean, Liverpool would probably see themselves as one of the teams to suffer the most from, if not the two thousand and nine-twenty eighteen period of investigation.

其后果是，曼城能够成为那样的球队，而他们觉得在克洛普的利物浦，这支真正历史性的特殊球队可能因为没有赢得本可以赢得的荣誉，因为对手是谁。

The consequence of that, which is what City were able to become and how they would feel they had this truly historically special team in Kops Liverpool that probably didn't win what it could have won because of who they were up against.

我想说，在安菲尔德，他们会向曼城表明这一点。

And I'd say Anfield, they're gonna let City know.

我是说，你都能猜到接下来会怎么发展，对吧？

I mean, like, you can already see how it's gonna go, can't you?

猜到什么？

Can see what?

挂个写着“耻辱”的横幅，或者比那更有创意点的东西。

A banner with sham on it or something a bit more creative than that.

所以，这对英超联赛和所有人来说，尽快解决这件事是至关重要的。

Therefore then it's like it's imperative for the Premier League and for everyone that this is sorted ASAP.

在制裁他们之前，这事不会就这么过去的。

It's not gonna go away until the sanctions are are put upon them.

我猜他们之后会上诉，但这确实对比赛伤害太大了，不是吗？

I guess then they'll appeal, but it's it's so damaging for the game, isn't it?

所以，我今天早上其实在《独立报》上写了一篇相关的文章，这周我也跟几个人聊过这事，有人跟我说，我觉得人们没意识到有些比赛可能会变成一场闹剧，因为有人跟我说，不管前几个赛季怎么样，现在每场比赛都会被标上一个星号。

So I've actually done a piece in this with The Independent this morning, and I was talking to few people this week about this where like someone said to me I don't think people realise how much of a farce some games could be because like the line that was used to me was whatever about previous seasons every single game now is going have an asterisk on it.

到赛季结束，积分榜可能会有巨大的变动。

There could be a massive point structure by the end of the season.

可能不会。

There might not be.

上诉过程，特别是如果曼城去高等法院的话，可能会拖到下个赛季，那会非常不利。

The appeal process, if say especially if City go to the high court, might go on into next season, which would be very damaging.

一个来自……我想最明显的问题是，曼城怎么能这么自信地说他们是清白的，并且有证据证明呢？

A question from I guess the obvious question is how can Manchester City be so confident as to say they're innocent and have the evidence to prove it?

这只是虚张声势，还是有一丝可能英超联盟搞砸了？

Is this just chess puffing or is there a sliver of a chance that the Premier League have dropped a clanger?

首先，这是独立裁决，对吧？

Well it's an independent ruling for a start wasn't it?

不一定是英超联盟。

Not necessarily the Premier League.

对，你看，在每一步中，我必须说我现在认识了不少律师，因为他们想在某些方面掌握细节。

Yeah and look obviously with every step of this I must say I'm well acquainted with a fair few lawyers now because they want to be on some way on top of the detail.

显然我们是记者不是律师，但他们说共识似乎是曼城要推翻这个裁决会非常非常困难。

Obviously we're journalists not lawyers but they would say that the consensus seems to be that this is going to be very, very difficult for Citi to overturn.

其中一个原因是，如果你读了目前的裁决，虽然我们还在等那份可能长达一千页的主要文件，但他们会指出，这个案子大部分是基于证据的。

And one of the reasons for that is, if you read the decision so far, and we still await the main document which could run to a thousand pages, but they would point to how most of this case is based on the evidence.

这不是法律问题，所以不太可能找到上诉的角度。

It's not about matters of law where you could potentially pursue angles of appeal.

而且上诉，至少在高等法院之前，最终都得归结到程序问题上。

And also appeals, at least certainly before the high court, would have to come down to procedure.

而且这个案子里有个大问题，几乎都成了老生常谈，但曼城还在反复强调。

And we have like this big part of the case which has almost become a cliche but Citi are still repeating it.

最初的描述是，这是一套无可辩驳的全面证据。

The initial description was of a comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence.

嗯，到目前为止我们经历的过程，就是那些证据本该被展示的时候。

Well, I mean the process we've had so far is when that evidence would have had to be shown.

除非有特殊情况，否则很难在这个案子里引入新证据，而英超联盟似乎已经发现这些证据相当站不住脚。

It's going to be very difficult to introduce new evidence to this case except in exceptional circumstances and the Premier League seems to have found it quite refutable.

所以总还是有机会的。

So there's always the chance.

你得考虑到这种可能性，并且用这种方式来说话。

You have to allow for the possibility and speak in those ways.

但即便是不断提到体育仲裁法庭，那也归结为几个不同的因素，比如最主要的是诉讼时效的技术性问题，其中对于一项赞助，欧足联拥有最多的证据，并且根据瑞士法律，他们可以从其他案例的行为模式中推断出结论。

But even like the constant reference to cast the Court of Arbitration for Sport that came down to a few different elements like the main one was the technicalities of time barring where with one of the sponsorships UEFA had the most evidence and meant they could draw inference from patterns of behavior for other examples according to Swiss law.

他们最终投票决定，重要的是付款日期还是提交日期，因为这必须落在2014年5月到2019年5月的时间段内。

They came down to a vote on whether what mattered was that was the date of payment or the date of submission because it had to fall within the May 2014 to May 2019 time period.

其中两位法官反对另一位法官，认为提交日期比付款日期更重要。

And two of the judges against the other one decided that date of submission was more important than the date of payment.

所以一整批证据就这样被排除掉了，无法提交，因此也就无法证明。

So an entire tranche of evidence was just stricken off, couldn't be entered, hence it couldn't be proven.

英超联赛没有遇到这种情况。

The Premier League haven't had that.

所以这与体育仲裁法庭的情况不同，而且当然，他们也不能向体育仲裁法庭上诉。

So it is a different context to the Court of Arbitration for Sport and also, of course, they can't appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

我觉得，几乎可以肯定，我想他们会上诉的。

I mean, it's almost certain I would imagine there's going to be an appeal.

英超联赛在上诉期间还能给他们处罚吗？

Can the Premier League still give them the punishment during that appeal?

他们必须等到上诉结束吗？

Do they have to wait till the end of it?

而且上诉会像案件本身一样耗时那么长吗？那显然花了很长时间。

And will the appeal take as long as the actual case itself took, which was obviously a substantial amount of time?

这个案子因为规模太大，所以是先判定责任，就像他们说的那样。

With this, because the scale is so big, it's it's verdict first liability as they put it.

而且因为有可能被上诉，现在实施处罚没有意义，因为可能六周内你就得推翻这些处罚。

And because there is a chance that could be appealed, it means there's no point imposing sanctions right now because suddenly you're you're putting the bottom potentially within six weeks, you have to overturn them again.

所以单就英超的程序来说，我觉得预期是这可能会……

So purely on the Premier League process, I think the expectation is this could...

曼城必须在周五之前，也就是10月2日之前提出上诉，我们知道他们肯定会上诉。

So City have until Friday this week, Friday October 2 to appeal that we know they will appeal.

我觉得时间表已经提出来了，即使组建仲裁小组可能需要时间，因为这也是这个案子拖了这么久的原因之一。

I think the timescale has been put forward even if it does potentially take time to get the panel together given that has been one of the issues why this case has been so long running.

我觉得最乐观的估计是十一月，但更可能要到一月，那时候才会实施处罚。

I think the most optimistic expectation is it would be in November, maybe more likely into January and that is when sanctions would be imposed.

然后就要看曼城是否想把这个案子告到高等法院，这确实还有一点可能性，据法律人士说，最终可能会闹成一场重审的闹剧。

And then it comes down to suppose whether Citi want to take it to the high court, which does I mean there's still the small possibility there from speaking to legal sources that that could end up the absolute farce of this going to a retrial.

不过我觉得那是以后要讨论的事了。

But I think that's a discussion for into the future.

好，这是克里斯提的问题。

Yeah, a question from Chris.

俱乐部有没有可能面临刑事指控？

Is there a chance that the club will face criminal charges?

英国税务海关总署和严重欺诈办公室会不会关注这个结果，比如账目造假、欺诈交易、避税等等？

Will HMRC and SFO be keeping an eye on the outcome, misstated accounts, fraudulent trading, tax avoidance, etc?

所以我觉得，如果上诉后曼城仍然被判大部分罪名成立，尤其是关键罪名，那事情就会进一步升级，这涉及法律里的两个相关条款。

So I think there is an expectation if the outcome after appeal ends with Citi still guilty of nearly all the charges and especially the key charges, it would go further and there's two relevant sections a law to that.

2006年《欺诈法》第2条，你得仔细看这些，因为细节很重要，它规定，故意做出虚假陈述，比如伪造财务报表，意图获利或避免损失，个人可能面临十年监禁和无限额罚款。

Section two of the Fraud Act 2006, you have to read these because I suppose the detail is important, that states that dishonestly making a false representation such as false financial accounts with the intention of making a gain or avoiding a loss can lead to individuals being imprisoned for ten years and facing an unlimited fine.

法案里说，所谓虚假陈述，就是指不真实或具有误导性的表述，而且做出陈述的人知道它可能不真实或具有误导性。

The quote, a representation is false if it is untrue or misleading and the person making it known that it is or might be untrue and misleading says the act.

另外，2006年《公司法》第5条规定，故意或轻率地向公司审计师作出重大虚假陈述属于违法行为，个人最高可判处两年监禁。

Then section five of the Companies Act 2,006 states that it is an offence to deliberately make or be reckless in material false statement to the company's auditors with a maximum sentence for individuals of two years in jail.

同一法案的第11条和第12条规定，向公司注册处提交虚假陈述（比如财务报表）也属于违法行为。

Section eleven twelve of the same act states it is an offence to submit a false statement such as accounts to Companies House.

这项罪名不需要证明有意图，最高处罚是无上限罚款。

No intent is required for this offence and the maximum sentence is an unlimited fine.

所以你看，这就是为什么这个案子牵扯的方面这么多。

So I mean, it's one of many reasons the dimensions of this case go so far.

我之前就说过，这个案子的影响范围实在太大了，真的很难想象它会发展到什么地步。

That's what I was saying about the the ramifications are are just, like, staggering of where where this could actually lead to and go to.

而且至少，我们说的是可能要改写英超十五年的历史，我……

And then at least, I mean, we're we're talking about potentially having to revise fifteen years of Premier League history and I...

而且还有……

And there is...

这是另一个方面。

This is another side to it.

有一种感觉是，不管现在发生什么，即使曼城像在欧足联案中那样再次因技术细节脱身，公众舆论，姑且这么说吧，基本上已经因为信息量之大而定了。

There is this kind of sense that regardless of what happens now and even if City get off on a second technicality as in the UEFA case, the court of public opinion, for want of another phrase, is pretty much decided because of the scale of info.

我的意思是，这也是与欧足联案的一个不同点。

Mean, that is one difference with UEFA as well.

在欧足联案中，他们从未公布仲裁庭的报告。

With the UEFA case, they never released the report of the adjudicory chamber.

所以基本上，我们周二在英超联赛看到的那一幕，实际上被搁置了，直到曼城上诉，这意味着我们从未得到很多细节。

So basically the stage we had on Tuesday of the Premier League, that was essentially suspended until the cat appeal, which meant we never got a lot of the details.

后来这些细节出现在那个YouTube纪录片里，我记得叫《足球最大丑闻》，对吧，他们拿到了那份报告并引用了其中的内容，相当有杀伤力。

And they came out subsequently in that YouTube documentary, Football's Biggest Scandal, I think it was called, question mark, where they got access to that report and quoted from it and it was quite damning.

事实上，那份报告里有一句话，我觉得这和我们讨论的非常相关，那就是“一种复杂、深思熟虑且根本性的企图，旨在规避或违反规则”，这指向了工业化作弊，正如过去几天所描述的那样。

In fact, one of the lines in that report was, and I suppose this is so relevant to what we're talking about, a sophisticated, thoughtful and fundamental attempt to circumvent or violate the rules, which points to industrialized cheating as the description has risen over the past few days.

而在这个案子里，我们确实有决定，我们还在等另一份文件。

Whereas in this case, we do have the decision, we're expecting another document.

而且因为所有这些信息都公开了，人们心里就记住了。

And because all that information is out there, that embeds in people's minds.

突然间，从2012年那个冠军和阿圭罗开始，所有事情的看法都变了。

And suddenly the last, everything going back to 2012 and that title and Aguero, the perspective of it has just changed.

确实是这样。

It really has.

Cathal McCarthy，过去十年里参与曼城工作的人，现在有没有在其他足球俱乐部担任要职的？

Cathal McCarthy, there are people that were involved in Manchester City over the last ten years that currently have positions of power at other football clubs?

他们会不会因为参与了曼城这些指控事件而丢掉工作？

Could they lose their jobs because of being involved with City when all these charges occurred?

这个问题现在很难回答。

That is something that's difficult to answer right now.

目前来说，这取决于具体的人，我指的是那些在邮件中被点名的人。

And it does come down to people at the moment, I would say people named in the emails.

比如一个突出的例子，曼联对他们的首席执行官Omar Baradah在社交媒体上被大量讨论做出了积极回应，指出他没有被调查，也没有被问询。

So just as the prominent example Manchester United were proactive in responding to you know a lot of swirling around on social media about their chief executive Omar Baradah and pointing to how he isn't under investigation or has not been questioned.

接下来，欧足联能不能也介入，对曼城在九年财务违规期间获得的所有奖金，包括晋级小组赛、淘汰赛、比赛奖金等等，进行经济处罚或罚款？

On to Can UEFA also intervene in any financial fines punishments towards Manchester City for all the prize money awarded to City during the nine season period of their financial breaches, prize money for qualifying group stages, knockout rounds, match bonuses, etcetera.

据我理解，这更多关系到那些受到损害的俱乐部，这也是这个故事中另一个重要的部分。

As far as I understand it, it's more relevant to the actual clubs that were aggrieved and this has been such another big strand in a story.

我在周五晚上新闻爆出时做过一个报道，核心内容就是阿森纳、曼联、利物浦和热刺这四家俱乐部，在诉讼时效到期前，行使了权利，发送了法律函件，保留在出现这种结果时提起诉讼的权利。

I did a news story on this on the Friday night it broke where this is essentially the core of that detail that four clubs Arsenal, Manchester United, Liverpool and Spurs basically exercised an option to send in a legal letter before the statute of limitations expired to reserve the right to sue if we had this outcome.

所以，这很大程度上就是围绕这个来的。

So that I mean that's what a lot of that comes down to.

当然。

Of course.

所以他们可能提出的法律索赔，不仅仅是收入损失。

So what they can potentially do with a legal claim is it's not just loss of earnings.

比如说，如果曼联在2016年没有晋级欧冠，他们排名第五。

Say, like, if, you know, Manchester United didn't qualify for the Champions League in 2016, they finished fifth.

所以问题不在于那额外的2500万或者其他什么数字。

So it's not about that extra 25,000,000 or whatever it will be.

这还涉及到机会的丧失。

It's also about loss of chance.

所以基本上，就像……

So essentially, like...

而且这个概念甚至还要看2018年之后曼城的情况。

And even even that concept comes down to what what happened with City after 2018.

就是你能利用那个机会做什么。

It's what you could have done with that opportunity.

我觉得最典型的例子就是托特纳姆热刺和切尔西的那个案子。

I I actually think the most prominent example of this, say, is Tottenham Hotspur with a Chelsea case.

而且我确实觉得切尔西没被剥夺冠军头衔算是幸运的。

And I do think Chelsea were fortunate not to have titles stripped.

但如果，比如说……

But if, say...

波切蒂诺在2016-17赛季，也就是白鹿巷的最后一个赛季，拿了86分，那真是个出色的赛季，球队也很棒，但他们没夺冠，是因为切尔西赢了，而那个胜利……

So Pochettino, 86 points in the last season of White High Lane in twenty sixteen, seventeen, a genuinely brilliant season, a brilliant team, and they didn't win the title because of a Chelsea victory that has...

在另一起调查中受到质疑，而他们在那起调查中被判有罪。

Had been under question in a different investigation from which they were found guilty.

如果波切蒂诺那年赢得了冠军，热刺的现代未来就完全不同了。

Had Pochino won the title that year, I mean Spurs' modern future is just completely different.

他可能不会在两年后被解雇，

He he probably doesn't get sacked 20...

因为他是英超冠军。

In two years later because he is a Premier League champion.

热刺突然有了俱乐部的身份认同。

Spurs suddenly all the kind of identity of the club.

我觉得你们作为球员肯定知道，一个俱乐部的感觉是什么样的。

Like I still think you guys as players will know I'm sure what a club feels like.

如果他们在近六十年里第一次成为冠军，这种感觉就会改变。

It changes if suddenly they're champions for the first time in nearly sixty years.

我认为这归结于那个问题的核心：机会的丧失。

And I think that comes down to the core of that question, loss of chance.

但关于欧足联，显然，曼城违反了欧足联的规定，但这时候可能已经超出了它的实际权限范围。

But as regards to UEFA, I mean obviously, so part of this, City have breached UEFA rules but at this point it would be outside its actual limitations.

这件事的另一个重点是，虽然只有四家俱乐部明确保留了权利，但显然存在一个灰色地带，因为信息泄露的方式，其他俱乐部和其他受害方，甚至可能包括球员，因为他们的合同不同，如果晋级欧冠，他们本可以获得更好的奖金和薪水，他们至少可以调查一下这种可能性。

Another big thing with this story is although only four clubs definitely reserve the right, apparently there is a grey area that because of the way the information came out, other clubs and other aggrieved parties and we are potentially talking even players here given their contracts were different, they would have got better bonuses, better pay had they qualified for the Champions League, that they could at least investigate the possibility.

你不能完全排除这种可能。

You couldn't completely write it off.

好的。

Okay.

我们马上要休息一下。

We're we're gonna take a break in a second.

我这里有一个来自Kryptona的非常重要的问题。

I have just one very, very important question here from Kryptona.

莱因克尔能不能终于把嘴从瓜迪奥拉的屁股上挪开，去调查一下他是怎么靠作弊和服药拿到奖杯的？

Will Linicker finally remove his mouth from Pep's balls and look into how he cheated and doped his way to trophies?

所以我现在正式把嘴从瓜迪奥拉的屁股上挪开了，这样你满意了吧。

So I've I've now officially removed my mouth from Pep Guardiola's balls, if that keeps you happy.

我们休息一下吧。

Let's take a break.

本期节目由健力士啤酒赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Guinness.

英超联赛回归了，我们已经花了几周时间重新适应那些熟悉的比赛日习惯。

Now that the Premier League is back, we've had a few weeks to settle into those familiar matchday rituals.

那么你的……

So what's your...

艾伦，你在家有什么计划吗？

Do you have a plan at home, Alan?

有的。

I do.

如果是凌晨三点开球，我会在十二点半或一点和朋友们去镇上的酒吧。

If it's a 03:00 kickoff, then I'll go with my pals at half twelve, 01:00 to the pub in town.

我会喝几杯健力士，然后走到圣……

I have a couple of paints of Guinness and then walk up to St.

圣詹姆斯公园。

James's Park.

米卡，你不工作的时候呢？

Micah, when you're not working?

不，就在家里，家庭影院室，你知道的，打开比赛看。

No, just in, well, at home, cinema room, know, got the game on.

来点好喝的健力士。

Nice little Guinness.

我最喜欢的是星期天。

My favorite days are Sundays.

先烤个肉，兄弟们过来，我们坐下来看球，没有比这更好的了。

Cook a roast before, boys come round, we sit down, watch the footballs, nothing better.

再来点健力士就更棒了。

And a little Guinness helps as well.

去健力士英国Instagram页面看看，怎么在指定的乐购门店获得你专属的定制酒杯，像我们一样享受你的比赛日啤酒。

Head to the Guinness GB Instagram page to see how you can get your own personalised glassware at select Tesco stores and enjoy your matchday pint in style like us.

用健力士啤酒，英超官方啤酒和无酒精啤酒，让你的比赛日更美好。

Make your matchday lovely with Guinness, official beer and non alcoholic beer of the Premier League.

18岁以上才能享用。

18 plus for the facts.

请访问drinkaware.co.uk。

Visit drinkaware.co.uk.

请理性饮酒。

Please drink responsibly.

我们正在从唐宁街10号获取关于那架载有350名乘客的航班降落的声明。

We are getting a statement from number 10 of that flight with 350 passengers on ground.

这场伟大的博弈，是英国和俄罗斯之间的战略较量。

The great game, strategic struggle between Britain and Russia.

我们评估一位首相

We assess a prime

高度确信这是俄罗斯所为。

minister with high confidence it was Russian.

让俄罗斯人负责就是世界大战

Holding the Russians account is World War

三……

three....

击落了一架载有350人的英国客机。

Down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

克里姆林宫的那个人在玩火，亚历克斯。

Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex.

你得问问自己，你想玩还是不想玩？

You've got to ask yourself, you want to play or not?

你是首相。

You're the prime minister.

你什么都没做。

You've done nothing.

你准备好面对接下来会发生什么了吗？

Are you prepared for coming?

我们需要了解政策背景。

We would need to understand the policy context.

所有相关背景今天都会整理成一个框架，然后下达到作战命令或补充命令中。

All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today and disseminated into an operation order or Frago.

一份补充命令，内容是刺杀俄罗斯总统。

A Frago that says to kill the president of Russia.

是的。

Yes.

Goalhanger的新节目。

New from Goalhanger.

谁能完成这个任务？

Who is going to be able to pull this off?

你是我的士兵，对吧？

You're my soldier, are you?

中士，中士汤姆·麦克达夫……

Sergeant Sergeant Tom McDuff...

达菲。

Duffy.

这是一段独一无二的音频剧旅程。

An audio drama journey like no other.

像达菲这样的人，是我们最宝贵的武器。

Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons.

这是一部技术严谨的地缘政治动作惊悚剧。

Devised as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller.

有两个城镇，友好的国王。

Have two towns friendly king

英国打出最强王牌，他是最棒的。

Britain plays its strongest arm He's the best.

对抗最强大的敌人。

Against its strongest foe.

别这么做，别挡道。

Don't do it, the way.

《猎熊》。

Bear Hunt.

现在就可以在各大播客平台收听。

Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎回到《其余是足球》，我是加里，还有阿兰·希勒，今天我们的特别嘉宾是米格尔·德莱尼。

Welcome back to the rest is football with me, Gary, and, Alan Shearer, and today, our special Miguel Delaney.

我们直接进入下一个问题。

Let me go straight on to another question.

你们发来了很多问题，非常感谢。

You've sent so many questions, and thank you for that.

我们会尽量多回答一些。

We'll try and get through as many as we possibly can.

西蒙·D问：俱乐部老板不能像曼城那样投资自己的俱乐部，让它达到自给自足的状态，而曼联的老板却能让俱乐部背上超过十亿英镑的债务，这样对吗？

Simon d, is it wrong that a club owner can't invest in his own business to get it to a stage that it becomes self sustainable like Manchester City have, while Manchester United owners can build up debt in the club of over £1,000,000,000.

哪种方式更可持续？

Which one is more sustainable?

这些规则简直荒谬。

The rules are nonsense.

但我想说，西蒙，规则就是规则。

But I would say, Simon, they are rules.

嗯，什么……

Well, what...

不过在米格尔发言之前，我想说，我对此深有感触，因为我们在布莱克本取得的成就在今天绝对不可能被允许发生。当时我们的老板是个本地人，白手起家成了百万富翁，他想投资自己的家乡和他支持的俱乐部。

But just before Miguel comes in, I I mean, I can relate to that because what we achieved at Blackburn would never ever be allowed to happen today because we had an owner who was a local guy who became self made millionaire and wanted to invest in his town and in his club that he supported.

他把自己的钱投进了俱乐部，正是这笔钱帮助我们赢得了英超冠军。

And he put his own money into that club, and his money helped us win the Premier League.

所以那种事现在绝对不可能再发生了。

So that would never ever be allowed to happen nowadays.

但我们享受了四年的辉煌成功，度过了非常美好的时光。

But we had four years of unbelievable success and had such a great time.

他是个真诚、朴实、白手起家的百万富翁，只想买下自己心爱的俱乐部。

And he was a genuine, down to earth, self made millionaire who wanted to buy his club.

这正是我说的，我必须说，我对此有复杂的看法，但这正是我写过很多的内容。

And it's exactly that I say why I have, I must say, complicated views on this but it's something I have written about a lot.

所以首先，关于……

So first, just on the...

他提到了曼联。

He mentioned Manchester United.

我仍然要说，那……

I would still say that that is...

实际上，从纯粹的足球和商业角度来看，像曼联这样伟大的机构竟然被允许通过杠杆收购的方式买下，这本身就是足球界的一大悲剧。

It's actually in its own way one of the, in purely football terms and business terms as opposed, one of the great football tragedies that a great institution like Manchester United was allowed to be bought in that way with a leveraged buyout.

而且那种杠杆收购，那种程度，现在实际上已经违反了英超联赛的规定。

So and that type of leveraged buyout, that extent of it is actually now against Premier League rules.

我觉得这很说明问题，现在不能再那样做了。

I think it's telling you cannot do that anymore.

而且我认为情况已经变得正常化了，当你看到两周前曼联的账目时，现在看起来只是个小新闻，但他们不得不支付那么多钱，仅仅是为了让债务保持在同样的水平。

And I think the situation has already become normalized where when you look at United's accounts from two weeks ago, which seems such a small story now, the fact that they have to pay off so much money just to keep the debt at the same level.

而且有一种观点，这正好触及了我们讨论的核心，就是这些规则当初制定的时候。

And there is an argument and this comes to the core of what we're talking about when these rules were devised.

显然，很多大俱乐部都想把这样的债务排除在规则之外。

Obviously a lot of the big clubs wanted to keep debt like this out of the rules.

我觉得现在有一种观点认为应该把债务算进去，虽然这不太可能发生，但这样能抑制这类行为，确保类似的事情开始得到解决。

I would say at this point there's an argument it should be, I mean it's not going to happen, but debt should be included to disincentivise this type of and ensure something like this starts to be addressed.

曼联还在这样，真是丢人。

It is a disgrace that it's ongoing with United.

不过从另一个角度看，关于老板能不能往俱乐部里投钱的问题，如果纯粹从商业角度考虑，那确实看起来是公平的。

On the other side of the question though about business owners being able to put money in, so yes, that would seem fair when you look at it purely from a business perspective.

但体育和足球显然首先不是一门生意。

But sport and football obviously isn't primarily a business.

它其实是一项运动，后来才加上了商业元素，这是经过一个多世纪演变而来的。

It's a sport with business elements bolted on really, something that's evolved over a century or more.

而且体育的商业运作依赖于，说白了，你推出的产品，依赖于比赛有竞争性。

But also the business of sport is dependent, like the product you put out for want of a better phrase, is dependent on being able to have competitive games.

这其实真的触及了英格兰足球身份的核心。

It's like this is something that actually really goes to the core of English football identity.

所以回到19世纪90年代，他们意识到如果只有大城市的一些俱乐部，大城市就会因为观众人数多而占据主导地位。

So back in the 1890s they realized that if we just have clubs here with a few of them from the big cities, the big cities will just dominate because they've got massive attendances.

所以他们一开始就规定，25%的门票收入必须共享，这个规定一直持续到1980年代，或者至少以某种形式持续到那时。

So they initially, they immediately had a rule where 25% of gate receipts had to be shared and that lasted until the 1980s or at least it lasted in some form since 1980s.

如果你把竞争力外包给老板是谁，那就会破坏这种平衡。

And the problem if you outsource competitiveness to who your owner is, it destabilizes that.

说实话，这正是我们一开始制定规则的原因之一，因为直到2005年、2006年，欧足联一些比较负责任的人看到俱乐部在过度扩张。

To be honest, that is one of the reasons we have rules in the first place because up until two thousand and six, two thousand and five, some of the more responsible people in UEFA were seeing that clubs were overextending them.

利兹联就是最大的例子之一，还有瓦伦西亚。

Leeds United one of the biggest examples, Valencia.

而且因为体育本身的竞争性和工资水平，俱乐部无法控制自己。

And it was also because the inherent competitiveness of the sport and the wage rates meant clubs couldn't stop themselves.

这些规则最初的名字叫财政公平竞赛，但它实际上并不关乎竞争平衡，而竞争平衡才应该是更值得关注的问题。

And the initial name of these rules, financial fair play, comes from it doesn't actually relate to competitive balance which should be more of a concern.

归根结底，公平竞赛指的是这样的情况：俱乐部想买球员，他们知道自己能付第一笔分期款，但根本不知道能不能付第二笔。

It comes down, fair play relates to they would have situations where a club would try to buy a player, they'd know they could pay the first installment of the fee but had no idea if they could pay the second.

人们往往忽略这一点，而且很多这类问题总是从足球金字塔顶端、谁赢得奖杯的角度来看。

People overlook this and obviously a lot of this always gets looked through the prism of the top end of football and who wins the trophies.

但那个时期欧足联非常担心的是，如果顶端的工资被抬高——事实也确实如此，尤其是阿布拉莫维奇收购之后——那会一路往下拖。

But a huge concern in UEFA in that period was if wages are inflated at the top, which they were, especially with the Abramovich takeover, that has a drag all the way down.

所以突然之间，你身处英甲、英乙，或者欧洲某个联赛。

So suddenly you're in League One or League Two or in a league around Europe.

这不仅让你买球员时花更多工资，留住他们也要花更多钱。

It doesn't just cost you more wages to buy players, it costs you more to keep them.

而且显然，压力就是让你不得不这么做。

And obviously the pressure is to do that.

制定规则时考虑的一点是，我们遇到过这样的情况：不管地球上薪水最高的球员是谁，总有人……

One of the considerations in the rules was, well we've got situations of, regardless of what kind of the best paid players on the planet, there are people...

举个例子，因为我是爱尔兰人，跟我聊过这事的人就提到谢尔本俱乐部，他们的球员拿着普通工资，却因为没拿到薪水，连圣诞礼物都买不起。

The example that was actually cited to me given I'm Irish when I was speaking to people who worked on this was clubs like Shelburne who their players on everyday wages couldn't pay for Christmas presents because they hadn't got paid.

在足球这个金钱泛滥的运动里，这看起来实在太不合理了。

And it seemed just so wrong in a sport awash with money.

比如杰克·沃克，我觉得这就是一个例子，说明这种投入规模对足球来说是可以承受的，而且确实带来了像你说的那种好处，比如布莱克本能赢得冠军。

Like Jack Walker, that's an example I suppose of it's a scale that is manageable for football and it did lead to like as you say, the virtue of a club like Blackburn being able to win the title.

但八年之后，阿布拉莫维奇出现了。

But eight years after that, you've got Abramovich.

他太有钱了，我刚才说的分期付款，对他来说根本不是问题。

He was so well, I mean, I'm talking about installments there.

阿布拉莫维奇刚来的时候，最让我印象深刻的是，他能直接去俱乐部，比如他们组了个团，我记得例子是西汉姆的乔·科尔。

One of the things that really struck when Abramovich came in was he could go to a club like they did a group, like I think the example started to me was Joe Cole at West Ham.

以前谈交易，比如分期付款什么的，但阿布拉莫维奇一来，钱立刻就到账了。

Whenever you go to a previous deal, like the installments and all that, with Abramovich, the money will be in their account immediately.

这对足球来说，是一个人们无法想象的通货膨胀事件。

And it was this inflationary event for football that people couldn't come up with.

突然之间，如果你有那种级别的财力，其他人就很难跟上节奏了。

And suddenly, if you've got that level, that scale of financial power, it becomes very difficult for anyone else to keep up.

我觉得这样做的危险在于，它会让足球变得不那么有竞争性，而不是更有竞争性。

And I would say the danger of that is it makes football less competitive rather than more.

我的意思是，想想看，如果城市集团，考虑到我们最终谈论的是一个拥有数万亿美元、真正无限资金的石油经济体，如果他们没有任何限制的话，会发生什么。

I mean, like, consider what would happen if Citi, given we are talking about ultimately an oil economy with trillions, really unlimited money, if they if there were no restraints.

所以我的回答总是，我认为规则很重要，因为它们本质上是成本控制规则，而且在足球这项运动中它们是必要的。

So my my answer to that would always be, I think the rules are important because they are they are fundamentally cost control rules and they're necessary in what football is.

我觉得问题在另一方面。

I think the the issue is the other side.

我知道人们总是说那些大俱乐部组成的卡特尔，以及他们如何强行推动这些规则。

And I know people go on about kind of the red cartel and how the big cubs have kind of forced the rules.

但就财务规则而言，这并不完全正确。

That's not quite true with the financial rules.

这种批评更适用的地方在于，基本上我之前提到的关于门票收入分成的例子，过去四十年里，每一个关于资金分配的决定，基本上都是大俱乐部在施加压力，尤其是皇马、巴萨，甚至拜仁，他们拿到的份额越来越多。

Where that criticism is more relevant is that basically that example I cited earlier about shares of gate receipts, Every single decision for the last forty years has been basically, in terms of where money goes, has been the big clubs applying pressure, especially Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich even, that they get more and more of the share.

而超级联赛就是最典型的例子。

And the Super League was the ultimate example of that.

而且说实话，英超联赛虽然受到很多批评，但过去几年里，比如2016年达到顶峰的时候，包括曼城在内的老六强一直在争取更多份额。

And to be fair to the Premier League, for all the criticism they get, over the last few years, like this was a peak in 2016, you had the old big six, including City within that, pushing for more and more.

我们是带来价值的人。

We're the ones that bring in the value.

我们应该获得更多的电视转播收入。

We should get more of the TV revenue.

而和西班牙梅西C罗时代不同，英超联赛确实保持了很好的平衡，分配也比较均衡。

Whereas unlike Spain through the Messi Ronaldo era, the Premier League did keep it quite well anchored and did keep it quite balanced.

但我的解决方案基本上是，足球需要彻底思考它的巨额资金流向哪里。

But that would be my solution to this basically football needs to drastically think about where its ample money goes.

托马斯·斯莫林。

Thomas Smalling.

曼城的作弊不仅违反了规则，还破坏了整个十年的竞争平衡。

City's cheating didn't just break the rules, it messed up the whole competitive balance for a decade.

利物浦因为一分之差错过了冠军。

Liverpool missed out on titles by a point.

曼联在欧冠奖金上吃了亏。

United lost on Champions League money.

你怎么补偿那些球员和球迷再也找不回那些时刻的俱乐部呢？

How do you even compensate clubs whose players and fans never got those moments back?

我觉得这其实挺复杂的，心理上。因为周五罗德里说那些话的时候，我就在想，对罗德里来说，他只是上场好好踢球，这本身还是纯粹的。

This is actually a bit of a psychologically complex one I find because I was thinking about it with Rodri's comments on Friday because as far as Rodri is concerned, he just went out and he played honestly, then there was just still a purity to it.

但问题是，你不能把他所处的环境分开来看。

But the problem is you can't separate that from the context that he walked into.

所以他更有机会赢得奖杯，因为他能和更强的队友一起踢。

So he he had a better chance to win trophies because of who he could play alongside.

而且，如果曼城没能把自己建设到那个程度，也许他们一开始就签不下罗德里。

And look, had City maybe not been able to build himself up to that point, then maybe they couldn't have signed Rodri in the first place.

这就是为什么我觉得英超，除了要避免陷入环法自行车赛或意甲那种情况，你不想在纪录上有这些漏洞，他们不愿意剥夺冠军，到目前为止的说法就是不会有追溯性的惩罚，基本上就是剥夺冠军，因为那样会牵扯到各种变量。

This is why I think the Premier League, aside from getting into a Tour de France or Serie Acel situation where you don't want these gaps in your record, it's why there's a reluctance to strip titles and like the word up to now has been there won't be retrospective punishment basically stripping titles because you also get into all sorts of variables.

比如说，如果……

Mean, so say like if...

这真是个大麻烦。

Can of worms.

对，没错，没错。

Yeah exactly, exactly.

但就算是你们，如果你们是……

But even you guys in that, like how would you feel if you were...

如果你们错过了呢？

If you had missed out?

如果你是对方俱乐部的，我……

If you're in an opposing club, I.

呃……

E.

利物浦、曼联或者别的什么队，那你肯定不会……

Liverpool or Man United or whoever, then you wouldn't...

你……

You...

几年以后，如果下个月有人跑来跟你说，喏，兄弟们。

In years later, if someone comes to you in the next month and say, there you go, lads.

你们其实赢了。

You actually did win it.

那感觉就像，一点意义都没有。

It's like, doesn't mean anything.

你也不会想要的，对吧？

You wouldn't want it, would you?

我从来没赢过别的。

I'd never won one else.

所以我会说英超冠军。

So I'd I'd say Premier League title.

我只赢过一次。

I've only won one.

我觉得那……

I think it's...

我不这么认为。

I don't.

我不这么认为……

I don't...

我觉得归根结底，我的意思是，显然，这是……

I think ultimately, I mean, obviously, this is...

我是说，你说这和球员没关系，但也许其中一两个人确实因此受益了。

I mean, you say it's nothing to do with the players, but maybe one or two of them have benefited because of it.

但足球运动员只想踢球，他们专注于赢得比赛。

But footballers just wanna play and they concentrate on winning stuff.

而且实际上，那一刻的喜悦才是最重要的，不是吗？

And it's actually the joy of the moment that is so great, isn't it?

比任何其他东西都重要。

More than perhaps anything else.

我觉得在大多数情况下，伙计们，我会说是的。

I think in most cases, guys, I would say yeah.

但我觉得这次的事情规模这么大，我不知道，会不会影响球员们上场比赛？

But I think the scale and the size of this, I don't know, will it affect the players in going into games?

我觉得，显然在心理上肯定会有影响，因为外界的声音太大了。

I mean, I think obviously mentally, would have to because the noise has been so loud.

而且只要这件事还悬着，曼城每场比赛都会带着这个阴影，这种声音不会消失。

And that isn't going away when City go into every game they play now while this is still hanging.

我想从球员的角度来看，他们显然从未经历过类似的事情，但我觉得心理上对他们来说会非常艰难，因为背景里一直有这种噪音。

I guess from a player's point of view, obviously they've never had anything like this before, but I think mentally it'd be so difficult for them because of the noise that's going on in the background.

我也在想这个，因为我觉得瓜迪奥拉在2023年2月指控出来时用的那种“围城心态”，他们后来赢得了三冠王，那显然可以非常有力。

I was wondering that because I suppose like siege mentality, which Guardiola used when the charges came out in February 2023, and they went on to win a treble, That obviously can be very powerful.

但你会怀疑这种心态能维持多久，尤其是面对这样的结果。

But you wonder how much it can be sustained, especially with an outcome like this.

我跟足球圈里的另一个人聊过，他一直在说，尤其是现代足球，高强度的逼抢是多么重要。

I was talking to someone else in football who was like going on about how, especially how modern football is and how intense pressing is such a part of it.

像阿尔特塔和瓜迪奥拉这样的教练，如果对任何球员有疑虑，他们会毫不犹豫地把他清理掉。

With managers like Arteta and Guardiola, they'll willingly, if there's a doubt about any player, they'll just get rid of them.