10. 圣诞节

如果你想从节目中获得更多内容，就加入‘余下皆历史’俱乐部吧。

If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.

随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为你生活中的历史爱好者赠送一整年的会员资格。

And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.

只需访问restishistory.com并点击礼物专区。

Just head to the restishistory.com and click gifts.

正值冬至的深冬时节。

It's the depths of the winter solstice.

我们正在拆除农神节的装饰。

We're taking down the Saturnalia decorations.

紧接着还有圣诞季。

We've got Yule coming as well.

当然，圣诞节也到了。

And, of course, it's Christmas.

我们觉得在《余下皆历史》节目里，应该给它增添些节日气氛，对吧？

And we thought that here on The Rest is History, we would give it a festive touch, did we not?

与我同在的是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克和汤姆·霍兰德。

Dominic Sandbrook, who is with me, Tom Holland.

我们确实这么做了。

We did indeed.

多米尼克，你现在有节日心情吗？

Dominic, are you in a a festive mood?

你喜欢圣诞节吗？

Do you like Christmas?

喜欢。

Yeah.

我超爱圣诞节。

I love Christmas.

我是说，我和我儿子每年都会一起看《欢乐魔盒》。

Do you have I mean, we have so my son and I always watch the Box of Delights.

你还记得《欢乐魔盒》吗？

Do remember the Box of Delights?

那是1980年代BBC改编的约翰·梅斯菲尔德圣诞小说。

The the nineteen eighties BBC adaptation, John Maysfield's Christmassy novel.

我们每年都会看。

We watch that every year.

天啊，这想法真让人感动。

God, that is what a touching thought.

我妻子拒绝看，但我们还是会看。

My wife refuses to watch it, but we we watch it.

帕特里克·特劳特的名字，她说，你知道，我看过一次。

Patrick Trout's name She says, you know, I've seen it once.

那片子不怎么样。

It wasn't very good.

我觉得没必要再浪费生命看第二遍。

I've seen no reason to to waste my life watching it again.

她就是这样过圣诞的。

She's Christmassy that way.

然后在圣诞节当天，因为我儿子九岁，我们整天都在为拼装圣诞老人送的那些巨型乐高模型而争论不休。

And then obviously on Christmas day, because my son is nine, we spend the entire day arguing about making gigantic Lego models that he's received from Father Christmas.

基本上情况就是，我和妻子最终会熬到凌晨三点，还在争论哪块零件丢了之类的事情。

And basically, what happens is my wife and I end up spending, you know, sort of 03:00 the next morning, we're still arguing about which is the lost piece and all this kind of carry on.

这就是我们的圣诞传统。

So that's our Christmas tradition.

但你还是喜欢圣诞节吗？

But you still you still like Christmas?

我爱圣诞节。

I love it.

我超爱这一切。

I love all that.

是啊。

Yeah.

要么拼乐高，要么跟你聊天。

It's that or talk to you.

所以，我是说，你知道，我们不会

So, I mean, you know, we're not gonna

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，当你这么说的时候。

Well, when you put it like that.

我们继续吧。

Let's crack on.

那你呢？

What about you?

那

What about

你一定也有自己的圣诞传统吧。

your you must have Christmas traditions.

你不是有一次火鸡被人从车后偷走了吗？

Didn't you have your turkey stolen out of the back of your car once?

我说对了吗？

Am I right?

是的。

Yeah.

确实发生过。

We did.

没错。

Yeah.

确实如此。

We did.

我们确实遇到过。

We did.

嗯，我们当时冰箱特别小，根本塞不进火鸡。

Well, we had a very small fridge, and so we couldn't fit the turkey in the fridge.

所以我们决定把它放在汽车后备箱里。

So we thought we'd put it in the back boot of the car.

结果有个混蛋路过把它偷走了。

And some bastard go along and nicked it.

所以我们准备了所有配菜，却没有主菜

So we had all the trimmings, but we didn't have

真令人惊讶。

to Wow.

这真是个糟糕的故事，对吧？

That's a terrible story, isn't it?

我就觉得你会愿意和公众分享这件事。

I just thought you'd love to share that with the public.

是啊。

Yeah.

但你知道，我之前说过，从那以后我们就不再吃火鸡了。

But I, you know, I I said earlier that that since then, we've stopped eating dinosaurs.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

当然。

Of course.

鸟类确实是。

Birds are.

但我们确实有个节日传统。

But we do have a festive tradition.

我们有个大型塑料霸王龙，还给它做了套小圣诞装。

We've got a a large plastic Tyrannosaur, and we've made a little kind of Santa outfit for him.

哦。

Oh.

于是它就加入了耶稣降生的场景。

So he joins then he joins the nativity scene.

噢，那挺不错。

Oh, that's nice.

所以你有三博士，有牧羊人，还有

So you got the wise men, got the shepherds, and you've got

我有只恐龙。

I got the dinosaur.

你有只穿着圣诞老人服装的霸王龙。

You've got a tyrannosaur in a Santa Claus outfit.

我们该怎么开始？

How should we start?

我们应该从讨论福音书的历史真实性开始吗？

Should we start by discussing how historical are the gospel accounts?

好的。

Okay.

那么，是的，它们确实有所不同，对吧，这些福音书？

So, yes, so they're different, aren't they, the gospel accounts?

所以我想我没说错，你肯定比我更了解这个，因为你从不放过任何机会推销你那本关于基督教的书。

So I think I'm right in saying you'll know more about this than me because you never miss an opportunity to plug your book about Christianity.

不过《Dominion》这本书，各大书店均有售。

But Dominion, available from all good bookshops.

圣诞节快到了。

Christmas coming up.

快去抢购吧，各位。

Rush out and buy it, folks.

嗯，大家可能已经错过了。

Well, people will have missed it.

大家可能已经错过了。

People will missed it.

我是说，人们已经完成了圣诞采购。

I mean, people have done their Christmas shopping.

他们不想——我是说，也许可以等到打折季。

They don't wanna I mean, maybe it's it'll be in the sales.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

书店里还有存货。

Remain in bookshops.

是啊。

Yeah.

难道没有区别吗？

Isn't there a difference?

有些福音书说耶稣出生在伯利恒，有些则说在拿撒勒。

Some Gospels say he was born Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and some say Nazareth.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

但有个不。

But there's a No.

但他们都说不是。

But they both say no.

共有四部福音书，其中只有两部记载了耶稣诞生的故事。

So there are four Gospels, and there are only two that give us accounts of the Nativity.

两部都记载他出生在伯利恒。

Both of them have him being born in Bethlehem.

其中，《圣马太福音》记载了三位智者来访和无辜者遭屠杀的故事。

Of them, Saint Matthew's Gospel, gives us the account of the three wise men coming and the massacre of the innocence.

另一部《路加福音》则讲述了牧羊人的故事。

And the other one, Luke, gives us a story about the shepherds.

对。

Right.

而且

And

所以圣诞故事实际上是这两个故事的融合。

so the Christmas story is a a fusion of the two.

那么没有一个故事同时包含牧羊人和智者吗？

So there's no story in which you get both, the shepherds and the wise men?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

而且作为历史记载，它存在巨大的问题。

And there are huge issues with it as history.

最明显的问题就是日期完全混乱。

The obvious one would be that the dates are all over the place.

显然，我们的纪年是从基督诞生算起的，但我们实际上根本不知道基督诞生的具体时间。因为在其中一个记载中，希律王还在世，而希律王死于四月。

So obviously, date our years from the birth of Christ, but we've got no idea really when the birth of Christ is, Because in one of them, we've got King Herod is alive and Herod dies in April.

而在另一个记载中，我们看到了凯撒·奥古斯都颁布的法令。

Then in the other one, we've got a decree going forward from Caesar Augustus.

据记载，这是居里纽担任叙利亚总督的时期。

And we're told that this is when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.

但居里纽是在公元6年进行人口普查的，这两者根本无法对应起来。

And Cyrenius is holding his census in AD six, though you can't you can't square the two.

好吧。

Okay.

这个时间跨度可真够大的。

That's a pretty big range.

汤姆，那次人口普查真的发生过吗？

And did that census actually happen, Tom?

那是真实存在的事情吗？

Is that a real thing?

嗯，确实有过某种形式的人口普查，但肯定不是新约中描述的那种方式。

Well, was a kind of census, but it certainly wasn't a census in the way that it gets described in the New Testament.

完全可以确定的是，约瑟根本不需要去伯利恒，很明显整个故事都是为了把耶稣安排到伯利恒出生，因为预言说弥赛亚将降生在伯利恒。

And what's absolutely certain is that Joseph would not have been required to go to Bethlehem, and it's pretty clear that that whole story is an attempt to get Jesus to Bethlehem and try to be born, because prophecy says that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.

所以他们基本上是对故事进行了后期改编。

So they've retrofitted the story, basically.

他们改编了这个故事。

They've retrofitted the story.

我认为很明显耶稣其实是出生在拿撒勒。

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was born in Nazareth.

但话说回来，你会发现其中有些永恒主题贯穿了随后两千年历史，至今仍是基督教传统的一部分。

But having said that, I think that you can see that there are kind of enduring themes that will run probably over the two thousand years that have followed and which are part of the Christian tradition to this day.

其一是关于耶稣——上帝之子、弥赛亚的构想，本质上是指，众所周知，他是旅人之子，在客栈找不到容身之处。

One is the idea that Jesus, Son of God, the Messiah, is essentially I mean, he's the son of travellers who can't find room in the inn, famously.

他被放在马槽里。

He's laid in a manger.

这种对比构成了圣诞故事的核心：上帝自己化身为一个被放在马厩中的小小婴孩。

And the contrast is something that is fundamental to the Christmas story, that God himself has become this tiny baby laid in a stable.

因此关键在于伟大与渺小之间的对比。

So that's crucial, the contrast between greatness and smallness.

我认为这就是为什么提及凯撒·奥古斯都、罗马总督制以及希律王如此重要——你在进行一种对照，将基督圣婴与国家权力机器形成对比。

And that's, I think, why the references to Caesar Augustus and to the Roman governorship and everything and to Herod is so important because you're counterpointing that, you're counterpointing the Christ child to the apparatus of state power.

另一件事是天使向牧羊人传达的和平信息。

And the other thing is the preaching of the message of peace, which the angels tell to the shepherds.

这再次将耶稣的诞生置于罗马权力的背景下，再次与罗马权力机器形成对照。

And again, this is placing the birth of Jesus in the context of Roman power, again, apparatus of Roman power.

这又是一种天国的和平——基督带来的和平——与尘世无力实现的和平之间的对照。

And again, it's the kind of counterpoint between the peace of heaven that Christ is bringing counterpointed to that of the earth that can't.

这同样是一个贯穿基督教历史的主题。

And again, that is a theme that runs throughout Christian history.

圣诞节本质上应是一段和平时期，应是一场休战，这一点我们稍后可能会再谈到。

The idea that Christmas properly should be a period of peace, should be a truce, and we may come to that later on.

而在整个过程中，嗯，在最初的两百年里，

And during all this, so well, during the first couple of hundred years,

那么当基督教还不是国教或类似地位时，圣诞节对早期基督徒来说，是否像对我们这样重要呢？

so when Christianity is not, you know, a state religion or anything like that, did Christmas loom as large to the early Christians as it does to us?

还是复活节才是重头戏？

Or was it Easter that was the big deal?

不是的。

No.

圣诞节在最初的两个世纪里似乎并未被特别标记或庆祝。

Christmas does not seem to have been marked or celebrated in the certainly first two centuries.

很可能是在三世纪末、四世纪初才开始的。

It's probably late third century, beginning of the fourth century.

众所周知，它被定在12月25日。

And it's fixed on the December 25, as we all know.

实际上，我们收到了不少关于这个问题的提问。

And we've had quite a few questions on this, actually.

乔西·韦尔斯代表许多人问道：农神节对圣诞节产生了多大影响？

Josie Wells speaks for many and says, how much influence did Saturnalia have on Christmas?

对。

Right.

那么农神节，你对此很了解，这是罗马人的大型狂欢庆典，对吧？

So Saturnalia, you know all about this, so this is this big Roman Jamboree, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

这是农神萨图恩的节日，庆祝活动始于12月17日，之后会持续两到七天。

So that's the festival of Saturn, and that is celebrated on the December 17, and then there are festivities that last two, five, seven days after it.

常有人说圣诞节是对这个节日的基督教化改造，或者说太阳神密特拉或'无敌太阳神'的诞辰也是12月25日。

And it's often said that Christmas is a kind of Christianisation of this festival, or it's said that the god Mithras was born on the December 25, or Sol Invictus, the unconquered son, was celebrated on the December 25.

我认为这些理由都不足以解释教会为何将日期定在12月25日。

I don't think that any of those reasons are adequate to explain why the Church fixes on the December 25.

这再次与历法反映神圣旨意的观念有关，实际上是由教会确定的基督受难日——3月25日所决定的。

And again, it's to do with this idea that the calendar is a reflection of the divine purposes, and it is actually determined by the date that the church arrives for the death of Christ, which is the March 25.

到二世纪末期，教父们推算3月25日很可能是这个神圣日期。

Church fathers work out by the end of the second century that this is the likely state, the March 25.

作为托尔金迷，你会记得魔戒被销毁的日期也是3月25日——因为托尔金知道这是圣日。

And as a Tolkien fan, you will remember that more than siren than the ring is thrown in on the March 25 because Tolkien knew that this was the holy day.

历史上所有事最终都能扯到托尔金，对吧？

Everything comes back to Tolkien, doesn't it, in history?

确实如此。

Ultimately.

犹太拉比和基督徒都认为事物的开端与终结往往发生在同一天。

And the rabbis and Christians both kind of thought that things that began and things that end happened on the same day.

所以世界诞生之日，也将是世界终结之时。

So the world begins, the world will end on the same day.

因此基督徒认为，基督受难日也必定是道成肉身之日，即圣灵进入玛利亚体内并植入子宫的那一天。

And so Christians assume that the day of Christ's death must also have been the day of the Incarnation, the day in which the spirit enters Mary and is implanted in the womb.

从3月25日算起九个月后，就到了12月25日。

Then you take nine months from the March 25, and you get to the December 25.

但是汤姆，我要追问你这一点。

But, Tom, I'm gonna press you on this.

这看起来有点...我能理解...好吧。

This seems a little bit I can under I I okay.

我可以接受那些关于日期推算的说法，但这也太巧了——恰好与罗马盛大庆典的日子重合，简直方便得不可思议。

I can buy all that stuff about dating back, but it's a remarkable coincidence, very convenient, that it happens to coincide with this huge Roman blowout.

而且如果我没记错，还与'无敌太阳神节'这个基督教主要竞争对手的重要节日重合，对吧？

And also, I think I'm right in saying with the big day of Sol Invictus, which is one of, you know, it's one of Christianity's big rivals, isn't it?

当时基督教正在罗马帝国境内迅速传播。

At the point where Christianity is sweeping its way through the Roman Empire.

这基本上就是基督教...怎么说呢...窃取了竞争对手宗教的重要节日。你总不能说这完全是巧合吧？

That basically Christianity, it sort of steals the I mean, you can't tell me this complete coincidence that it steals the big day of one of its competitor religions.

关于‘无敌太阳神节’，目前尚不明确它是否确实在12月25日庆祝，因为众所周知，这类历史资料的考证极其复杂。

Well, on Sol Invictus, it's unclear exactly whether it was celebrated on the December 25 because, as you all know, the sources for these kinds of things are incredibly complicated.

有一份惊人记载直指基督徒将节日挪至12月25日，意图挪用‘不败太阳’的庆典日。

There's an amazing account that says very boldly that the Christians moved it on to twenty fifth December because they wanted to appropriate the feast day of the unconquered sun.

原本认为这一说法源自四世纪，但后来证实其实出自十二世纪的文献，记录在一名叙利亚主教手稿的页边注释中。

And it was thought that this came from the fourth century, but it's subsequently been shown that actually it dates from the twelfth century and it's written in the margins of an account by a Syrian bishop.

本质上，这是试图解释为何西方教会在12月25日庆祝圣诞节，而东方教会则稍晚庆祝。

Essentially, it's an attempt to explain why the Western church celebrates Christmas on the December 25, whereas the Eastern church celebrates it a little bit later.

实际上我们没有任何确凿证据表明‘无敌太阳神’的生日是12月25日，更遑论密特拉神的生日也在这一天。

Essentially, we don't really have any solid evidence at all that the birthday of Sol Invictus was on the December 25, certainly none that the birthday of Mithras was on the December 25.

好吧。

Okay.

尽管如此，冬至作为一年中最黑暗的时节，显然是人们需要振奋精神的时刻。

Having said that, it is clear that the solstice, the winter solstice, the dead of the year, is clearly a time when people do want to cheer themselves up.

就像当下关于疫情期间是否庆祝圣诞节的争论所体现的那样。

I mean, we see that at the moment, the debate over whether to celebrate Christmas in the midst of the pandemic or not.

这一点也很明显。

And it's clear as well.

我们这里有个来自Rob Landy的问题：既然原始资料没有详细记载，那么与圣诞节的联系是什么？

So we have a question here from Rob Landy, who says, what's the connection to Yule, given that apparently primary sources don't go into detail?

完全正确。

Absolutely right.

我们真的能说圣诞老人其实就是奥丁吗？还是这只是基于几个共同特征的猜测？

And can we really claim that Santa is actually Odin, or is it just speculation based on a couple of common attributes?

我们稍后可能会谈到圣诞老人。

We might come to Santa later.

但确实存在这类事物，比如圣诞节和古老的冬至庆祝活动，巨石阵与冬至的对齐等等。

But there are these kind of things, Yule and guess going right the way back, the alignment of Stonehenge to the winter solstice, that kind of thing.

显然，在至暗时刻庆祝光明节日的愿望是一种普遍现象。

It's evident that the desire to celebrate a festival of light in the depth of darkness is a kind of universal thing.

我猜教会神父们会说，这完全是天意。

I guess the church fathers would have said, well, this is purely providential.

这表明。

This shows.

是啊，当然。

Yeah, of course.

惊人的巧合。

Remarkable accident.

多么幸运的肯定。

What a lucky Yes.

那么首先，

And then so for the first,

我们在看什么？

what are we looking at?

在圣诞节作为节日存在的最初1500年，基本上，你知道，人们现在总抱怨失去了圣诞节的真正精神——那种静默沉思、思考和平，某种程度上，你知道，过一天杰里米·科尔宾式的生活。

The first 1,500 even of Christmas's existence as a festival, it's basically, you know, people always moan now of lost the true spirit of Christmas, which is sort of silent contemplation and thinking about peace and sort of, you know, living, you know, living Jeremy Corbyn's life in a day.

实际上，圣诞节从来都不是关于这些的，不是吗？

And actually, that's never really been what Christmas is about, has it?

因为在最初那一千五百年的大部分时间里，圣诞节的核心就是胡吃海喝、纵酒狂欢、派对作乐，充满了那种无拘无束的狂欢节气息。

Because for most of that sort of first fifteen hundred years, it was about stuffing yourself with food, getting drunk, having a party, messing about the sort of the misrule, the carnivalesque element of Christmas.

其实从某种奇怪的角度说，我们丢失的正是这种精神。

I mean, that, in a weird way, is what we've lost, actually.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我觉得这也关乎权贵阶层向弱势群体施以慷慨的理念。

But it's also about I I think that it's it's about the idea of the the wealthy, those with power being offering generosity to those who who who lack it.

我最喜欢的盎格鲁-撒克逊特许状之一就是埃塞尔斯坦颁布的。

So one of my favorite Anglo Saxon charters is issued by Athelstan.

你居然有最爱的盎格鲁-撒克逊特许状。

You have a favorite Anglo Saxon charter.

太棒了。

That's great.

你当然会有。

Of course, you do.

我对此毫不意外。

I would expect nothing else.

当然。

Of course.

这是埃塞尔斯坦在圣诞夜向他的一位贵族颁布的土地授予令，明确规定你可以拥有这片土地，但若有任何人需要庇护来到你的领地，你必须为他们提供庇护。

And it's issued by Athelstan on Christmas Eve to one of his noblemen issuing grant of land and specifies that you can have this land, but if you get anybody coming into your land who needs shelter, you have to provide them with shelter.

很明显他一直在思考圣诞故事，这正是他心中的念头。

And it's pretty clear that has been contemplating the Christmas story, And that's what's at the back of his mind.

这相当令人动容，因为突然间你得以窥见这位原本极为神秘的国王的内心世界。

And that's kind of incredibly moving because suddenly you get a kind of shaft of light into the way that this otherwise very obscure king.

我的意思是，我们通常完全无法了解他的思维方式。

I mean, we have no kind of insight into the way that he thinks.

但通过这件事我们突然了解了，这非常感人。

But suddenly we do with this, and it's very moving.

我认为圣诞庆祝传统的核心在于——正如你所说，打开厅堂、设宴狂欢——从基督教角度来看，这种狂欢的关键在于它是共享的庆祝。

And I think that the traditions of celebration at Christmas, where the halls are opened up and, as you say, kind of feasting and merrymaking, The crucial aspect of the merrymaking, from the Christian point of view, is that it is a shared celebration.

这是富人在款待穷人。

It's the rich hosting the poor.

我认为，这一主题一直延续至今。

And that, again, I think, is a theme that runs right the way through into the present day.

我的意思是，这更像是一种现代历史学家的视角。

I mean, it is a kind of I mean, that's a kind of modern historian.

你难道不认为给予的理念实际上仍然是理解圣诞节的核心吗？

Wouldn't you say that the idea of giving does actually remain pretty fundamental to the way that Christmas is understood?

不过确实有一点。

A little bit though, actually.

我们有点跳得太快了，我本来想把这些留到讲维多利亚时代时再讨论的。

I mean, we're sort of leaping ahead here because I wanted to sort of save all this for when we got to the Victorians.

但我认为圣诞节的重大转变其实是从集体性转向私人化。

But I mean, I think the big shift in Christmas is actually from the collective to the private.

所以我觉得你说得对，那种开放的、公共性质的圣诞节传统一直延续到——基本上到《圣诞颂歌》那个时期。

So, I think you're right that the sort of open, the public nature of Christmas going all the way through to, basically to a Christmas Carol.

我觉得关于圣诞节——这个话题我们稍后会详细讨论——但现在的圣诞节已经退居到紧闭的门后，变成了一个更加私有化、家庭化的节日。

And then I think with, well, I mean, we're gonna come to this later, but I think what's happened with Christmas is Christmas has retreated behind closed doors and become a much more privatized sort of domesticated festival.

实际上，那种对穷人的施舍和社区意识已经随着时间逐渐减弱了。

And actually the sort of, the giving to the poor and the sort of sense of community has become diminished over time.

不过这个话题我们稍后再深入讨论。

But anyway, we'll get into this a little bit later.

我想先转述一个来自格林肖古典与拉丁语课程的问题，格林肖想询问关于圣诞节被用于非传统圣诞用途的情况。

I just wanted to bring up a question from Greenshaw Classics and Latin, and Greenshaw says, they want to ask about the use of Christmas for sort of non what they call they call non Christmas y reasons.

你刚才提到了阿瑟斯坦。

So you mentioned Athelstan.

我想问问关于威廉征服者或查理曼大帝加冕的事。

I want to ask about the coronation of people like William the Conqueror or Charlemagne.

他们都是在12月25日圣诞节这天加冕的。

So they're both crowned on Christmas Day on the December 25.

这只是巧合，还是刻意选择将他们的政权与基督诞生联系起来？

And is that just a fluke, or is that a deliberate choice to identify their regime with the birth of Christ?

我实话实说。

I'm gonna be absolutely honest.

我完全不知道。

I have no idea.

哦，这是

Oh, this is

但我猜是这样。

But I would guess so.

但我猜是这样，因为这是历史上的重要时刻。

But I would guess so because Great moment in history.

我这么猜测是因为我认为教会的节庆日在近代以前的重要性，是我们现在几乎无法理解的。

I would guess it because I think that the feast days of the church have a salience in kind of pre modern times that we can barely comprehend now.

是的。

Yeah.

从某种意义上说，圣诞节对我们的意义就像是那个世界的幽灵遗迹，在那个世界里，你整个生活都是由这些节日构成的。

And in a sense, the significance of Christmas for us is the kind of one ghostly remains of that that world, where your whole life was structured by these festivals.

你通过季节的更替来丈量时光，用它们的流逝来衡量自己的人生。

You measure out the seasons by you measure out your own life by their passage.

因此，这种感觉就是，日历正在反映一种宇宙级的戏剧性事件。

And so what happened the the sense that, the calendar is reflecting a kind of cosmic drama.

因此，圣诞节当天发生的事情具有这种难以置信的重要意义。

And so what happens on Christmas Day has this incredible significance.

我猜肯定如此，不过我们还是先把这放一边，

I would guess it must do, But let's put that out and

那些比

people who know more than

我懂得更多的人来回答这个问题。

I do to answer that question.

嗯，我想如果是一位政治家，而你将在12月中下旬的某个时刻加冕，你肯定会选择25号，对吧？

Well, I suppose if a politician, and you're going to be crowned at some point in the mid-20s December, you're going to choose the twenty fifth, aren't you?

这本来就是节日，选这一天合情合理。

It just sort of makes sense that it's a feast day already.

是啊。

Yeah.

省钱。

Save money.

对。

Yeah.

具体为什么？

Why exactly?

不过我们

But let's

两个我们

two let's

节日里你可以过一个。

feasts where you can have one.

那我们快进一下，因为显然我们已经讨论了圣诞节作为公共节日的性质、欢庆活动等等。

So let's fast forward a little bit, because we've obviously talked about the sort of public nature of Christmas and the merrymaking and all the rest of it.

这不可避免地引出了宗教改革时期和清教徒的话题，他们基本上是这样看待这个问题的。

And this inevitably brings up the, you you get to the period of the reformation and the Puritans who basically look at it.

现在，我认为人们对他们禁止圣诞节的做法有完全错误的理解。

Now, I think people got completely wrong idea about them banning Christmas.

我认为他们想要压制圣诞节，不是因为它不够基督教化，而是因为他们看到人们的所作所为。

I they want, I think they want to clamp down on Christmas because it's not Christian, because it's not Christian enough, because basically they look at what people are doing.

他们说，人们所做的不过是喝得烂醉、跳着不雅的舞蹈、动手动脚、让自己出丑。

And they say, well, all they're doing is they're getting hammered and sort of dancing inappropriately and, you know, groping people and disgracing themselves.

不过有趣的是，他们认为圣诞节应该只是个普通日子，对吧？

And actually, the interesting thing though is that they think Christmas should just be an ordinary day, don't they?

他们希望人们照常工作。

They want people to go to work.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

而且有趣的是，关于圣诞节是异教节日被接管的观点，其实最早是由改革派提出的。

And I but but also, interestingly, the the whole idea that Christmas is a kind of takeover of pagan festivals actually begins with with the reformers.

这始于清教徒。

It begins with the Puritans.

这是他们极度焦虑的事情。

It's something that they're incredibly anxious about.

因此，在清教徒反对圣诞节的激烈言论中，你会反复看到列举人们的行为清单，比如打牌之类的。

And so again and again, in Puritan screeds against Christmas, you get lists of what people are doing, kind of playing cards.

我觉得吃坚果似乎是个小罪过。

I think eating nuts seems to be a petite.

我对人们吃坚果这件事简直着迷。

I'm absolutely obsessed with people eating nuts.

是啊，说不定他们过敏呢。

Yeah, well maybe they've allergy.

各种狂欢作乐、戴面具、哑剧表演、唱颂歌、掷骰子，诸如此类的活动。

A kind of merry making, masking, mumming, caroling, dicing, all that kind of stuff.

他们说这些就是异教徒当年做的事。

And they say this is the kind of stuff that the pagans did.

所以他们查阅关于农神节等活动的记载，声称我们正在放任异教神祇悄然回归。

So they're reading up accounts of what happened at the Saturnalia and so on, and saying, we are allowing the pagan gods to creep back in.

当人们以这种方式庆祝圣诞节时，实际上他们是在祭拜农神或酒神之类的异教神祇，这正是令人忧虑之处。

And when people celebrate Christmas in this way, actually what they're doing is they're celebrating Saturn or Bacchus or whoever, and that's the anxiety.

因此，我认为今年让我们更清晰地认识到这点——我们再次面临这种矛盾：是优先考虑庆典的欢乐氛围，还是聚焦于拯救生命这一核心教义？对清教徒而言，这始终关乎生死抉择。

And so, again and I think that this year has really sharpened our understanding of that because actually, we are back to a kind of tension where do you privilege the celebration, the festive aspects of it, Or do you focus on saving life, the core message, which for Puritans, it was all about life and death.

这关系到你能否从地狱中得到救赎。

It was about whether you were going to be redeemed from hell.

所以2020年的这场辩论，让我们突然更容易理解护国公时期那些事件背后的动机，尤其是那个 notorious 的典型案例。

So that debate in 2020, I think it is suddenly much easier for us to fathom what was going on in the aspects, particularly the protectorate and the notorious example.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，不是有各种关于议会在圣诞节当天办公的传闻吗？

Well, there's all these stories, aren't there, about Parliament working on Christmas Day.

汤姆，你圣诞节加过班吗？

Have you ever worked on Christmas Day, Tom?

从没在圣诞节工作过。

Never worked on Christmas Day.

我真的很喜欢圣诞节，我也是。

I really love Christmas and I Yeah, me too.

其实我对圣诞节毫无抵抗力。

I'm a real sucker for Christmas, actually.

我完全沉迷于那些，你知道的，马尔科姆和怀斯的圣诞特辑，那些历史悠久的伟大传统。

I really buy into all the, you know, Malcolm and Wise Christmas special, the great time honored traditions.

我只是不...

I just no.

我从来没有，但我妻子是助产士。

I've never but whereas my wife is a midwife.

所以她确实会在圣诞节工作。

She so she does.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以今年她得在五点出门值班。

So this year, she's got to go out and do do shift at five.

哦，真了不起。

Oh, very impressive.

但你知道，那是婴儿的

But that but, you know, that's baby's

诞生时刻。

being born.

那也是圣诞节的意义所在。

That's that's that's what Christmas is about as well.

确实如此。

So yeah.

不过让我们回到清教徒的话题。

So Let's go back to the Puritans, though.

大家都认为奥利弗·克伦威尔禁止了圣诞节。

So Oliver Cromwell, everybody thinks Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas.

但当然，奥利弗·克伦威尔当时甚至都不在掌权。

But, of course, Oliver Cromwell wasn't even in power.

我是说，当议会禁止圣诞节时，他正带着他的铁骑军在野外某处巡视，不是吗？

I mean, he was out in the field somewhere riding around with his ironsides at the point that Parliament banned Christmas, wasn't it?

所以是议会禁止了圣诞节，而非克伦威尔护国公时期。

So it was Parliament that banned it, not the Cromwellian protectorate.

有趣的是，有大量记载显示人们照常工作，甚至还有关于愤怒学徒的争论——这些想过圣诞的学徒试图强迫别人关店庆祝，尽管店主们并不情愿。

And the interesting thing is that, you know, there are all these accounts of sort of people going to work as normal and actually arguments about whether, you know, so irate apprentices who want to have Christmas are trying to force people to shut their shops and enjoy themselves when they don't want to.

就像想象新冠疫情时，那些反对封锁的人在街上游荡，不是要强迫商店在圣诞营业，而是逼人们与家人团聚、看更多电视、吃更多土耳其软糖。

So sort of, yeah, as you're trying to imagine kind of COVID, you know, lockdown deniers roaming the land, to force shops to open to not shops to open on Christmas day, but trying to force people to meet their families and to watch more TV and eat more Turkish delights.

是啊。

Yeah.

这就是那种

And that's the kind

显然，鲍里斯·约翰逊内心正在进行一场查理二世与克伦威尔的激烈斗争——你们说，他会站在哪边？

of, obviously, the great inner struggle going on in Boris Johnson's heart between Charles II and Cromwell, which, you know, who's he going to side with?

正如我所说，我认为这场危机确实让我们聚焦于圣诞节在十七世纪的重要意义。

I think that, as I said, I think that this whole crisis does focus for us what the significance of Christmas was back in the seventeenth century as well.

这种张力始终存在：一方面要以应有的庄重态度纪念基督教历中这一极其神圣的时刻，另一方面人们又觉得或许庆祝这一庄重时刻的最佳方式就是尽情欢乐。

And the tension that has always existed between it being marking this incredibly holy moment in the Christian calendar with all due solemnity, and yet people feeling that perhaps the best way to mark that solemnity is to have a great time.

是的。

Yes.

当然，随着王政复辟，圣诞节也得以恢复。

And then, of course, the restoration happens and Christmas returns.

于是，你知道，庆祝活动重新开始，诸如此类。

So, you know, the the the festivities restart and all the rest of it.

但对我来说，圣诞节有趣之处在于接下来一百年它的发展，因为这部分故事从未被讲述。

And yet to me, the interesting thing about Christmas is what happens to Christmas in the next hundred years, because that's a part of the story just just never gets told.

实际上，深入研究后发现，人们日记中很少提及它。

And actually, the interesting thing looking into it is that often people barely mention it in their diaries.

这是个节日，是个庆典，但总有些不合时宜。

It's a feast day and it's a festival, but there's something slightly backward about it.

这基本上是他们紧紧抓住的过去遗风，在乡村地区尤为明显。

It's basically a relic of the past that they're kind of clinging on to particularly in the countryside.

要知道，圣诞节某种程度上是种老派事物，但并非什么大事。

And there's a you know, Christmas is a sort of old fashioned thing, but it's not a massive deal.

远不如当今这般隆重。

Nowhere near as big a deal as it is today.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为某种程度上是英格兰将传统圣诞庆祝方式输出到了美国。

I I think it's a kind of it we ex the English export the traditional celebration of Christmas to America.

而后又从美国被带回了英格兰。

And I think it then gets brought back to England from America.

我认为美国庆祝圣诞的传统，基本上至少可以追溯到十九世纪初。

And I think that the American traditions of celebrating Christmas, basically, they stem at least from the early nineteenth century.

这几乎算是美国化的首个范例。

So it's almost the first example of Americanisation.

这很自然地引出了圣诞老人这个话题，以及他是否真的是奥丁的转世。

And that will bring us on very neatly to Santa Claus and whether indeed he is a reincarnation of Odin.

不过在探讨这个有趣的话题之前，我们先休息一下。

But let's have a break before we get onto that fascinating topic.

欢迎回到《余下皆历史》节目。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在讨论圣诞老人。

We are talking Father Christmas or Santa Claus.

汤姆，你是支持圣诞老人(Santa Claus)派还是圣诞老人(Father Christmas)派？

Tom, you a Santa Claus man or a Father Christmas man?

我是圣诞老人(Father Christmas)派。

I'm a Father Christmas man.

我讨厌圣诞老人(Santa Claus)。

I hate Santa Claus.

真是个典型的英格兰硬汉。

A true bold Englishman.

我也是圣诞老人派。

I'm also Father Christmas man.

很好。

Good.

我就知道你会是。

I knew you would be.

我就知道你会是。

I knew you would be.

我喜欢想象我们的听众都是圣诞老人。

I like to think that our listeners are all Father Christmas.

也许有些人是尼克，还有些是尼克的死忠粉。

Maybe some Nick, maybe a few Nick diehards.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以圣尼克就是...我是说，故事就是这样开始的。

So Saint Nick is is I mean, that's how it starts.

我们刚才在讨论Rob Landy提出的一个问题。

So we were talking about whether a question from Rob Landy.

圣诞老人实际上是奥丁吗？

Is is Father Christmas actually Odin?

不是。

No.

对。

Yeah.

我...我不认为他是。

I I I don't think he is.

这可以追溯到华盛顿·欧文——19世纪初的美国短篇小说家，他是个圣诞迷。

And it it goes back to this Washington Irving, the American short story teller, beginning of the nineteenth century, who is a sucker for Christmas.

他哀叹你提到的现象，即这个节日似乎在衰落，总是与贵族大厅之类的事物联系在一起。

And he laments what you were talking about, the fact that the festival seems to be going into decline, that it's associated with baronial halls and things like that.

显然，美国没有那些东西。

And obviously, you don't have those in America.