12天：马丁·路德与J.R.R.托尔金

欢迎来到余下的历史。

Welcome to the rest is history.

今天是1月3日。

It is the January 3.

这是我们关于十二天圣诞节系列的最新一期，或者说是十三天，这正是我们正在做的。

It is the latest in our series on the twelve days of Christmas or thirteen days, which is what we're doing.

而且，我们每天都在纪念周年纪念日。

And, we are doing anniversaries every day.

汤姆选一个。

Tom chooses one.

我选一个。

I choose one.

汤姆，你今天要第一个讲，是吧？讲一个我觉得非常贴近你内心的人？

And, Tom, you're gonna go first day, aren't you, with a a man who I think is very close to your heart?

是的。

Yes.

嗯，这出现在我们早期关于社交媒体的几期节目中，当时我们类比了印刷术和新兴媒体在宗教改革中的运用方式。

Well, featured in in one of the very earliest, episodes that we did on, the idea of social media, echoing the way that, printing and the new media had been used in the reformation.

当然，这方面最杰出的大师就是马丁·路德，他常被视为宗教改革之父。

And, of course, the absolute master of that was Martin Luther, the man who is often seen as the father of the reckon of of the Reformation.

昨天，多米尼克，我们谈到了格拉纳达征服、哥伦布发现新大陆、西班牙驱逐犹太人这些具有决定性意义的年份，正如你所说，这是中世纪结束的关键时刻。

And yesterday, Dominic, we had the the fateful year that saw the the conquest of Granada, Columbus, the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, one of the kind of key dates, as you said, for you know, this is the endpoint of the Middle Ages.

是的。

Yeah.

但另一个明显的关键年份是16世纪20年代初，那时马丁·路德真正推动了宗教改革的进程。

But another obvious date would be the early fifteen twenties when Martin Luther really gets the reformation going.

而其中最关键的时刻，标志着分裂正式化的节点，就是路德被教皇正式开除教籍、逐出天主教会，这件事发生在1521年3月1日。

And possibly the key moment in that, the moment that marks the kind of the point where the schism is formalized is when Luther gets excommunicated, officially excommunicated, cast out from the Catholic church by the pope, and that happened on the 01/03/1521.

所以，汤姆，给我们描绘一下当时的场景。

So, Tom, set the scene for us.

我想是1517年吧，马丁·路德 famously 将他的95条论纲钉在了维滕贝格教堂的大门上，或者实际上，他可能并没有真的钉上去。

So I think it's 1517, isn't it, that, Martin Luther famously nails or, in fact, probably doesn't nail his 95 theses to the door of that church in in Wittenberg.

这通常被认为是新教改革的开端时刻。

And that's the moment that's con that's commonly seen as sort of kick starting the Protestant Reformation.

这是那之后的四年。

So this is four years after that.

在这期间发生了什么？我的意思是，这一切的背景是什么？

And what's been happening in that kind of I mean, what's the backstory to all this?

实际上，路德在神学和教义上存在诸多问题，这些问题越来越直接挑战天主教会——特别是教皇——赖以存在的庞大教义体系的核心。

Well, so so, essentially, Luther has all kinds of issues, that are theological and doctrinal, and they increasingly strike at the very heart of the the great kind of edifice of doctrine that the Catholic church and specifically the papacy kind of exists to uphold.

长期以来，每当天主教会在中世纪面对异端运动时，都会面临一个问题：该如何处理他们？

And the question is, that has always confronted the the the Catholic church throughout the Middle Ages, whenever confronted by, you know, heretical movements, is what do you do with them?

是试图将他们融入教会体系，还是将他们驱逐并彻底根除？

Do you try and kind of integrate them into the fabric of of the church, or do you kind of expel them and try and extirpate them?

在路德发表言论、张贴九十五条论纲之后的几年里，教会采取了各种不同的策略。

And there are kind of various strategies that are adopted in in the years that immediately follow Luther's kind of, you know, pronouncement, his his his his nailing of the of the theses.

有一位名叫卡塔兰的枢机主教曾试图直接与路德谈判，但路德根本不愿接受。

So there's a there's there's a cardinal, cardinal Catahan, who comes and and attempts to negotiate with Luther directly, but, Luther isn't really having any of it.

当路德背弃卡塔汉，回到萨克森选帝侯腓特烈统治下的维滕贝格时，腓特烈对路德非常自豪。

And when Luther turns his back on Catahan, goes back to, Wittenberg, which is under the rule of the elector Friedrich of Saxony, who is very very proud of of Luther.

你知道，路德已经让自己成为欧洲最著名的人物。

You know, Luther's made himself the most famous person in Europe.

是的。

Yeah.

维滕贝格已成为一个重要的中心，成为整个基督教世界关注的焦点。

Wittenberg has become this kind of great center of of you know, it's the focus of attention across Christendom.

因此，从某种意义上说，路德在那里是安全的，远离了教廷的势力范围。

So in a sense, Luther is kind of safe there, out beyond the reach of of of of of the papacy.

基本上，路德已经认定，事情已经到了无法回头的地步。

Basically, Luther has decided that, you know, it's beyond the point of no return.

1520年6月15日，教皇利奥十世发布了一道教皇诏书，新教徒们总是觉得这非常可笑。

It's on the June 15 in in 1520 that the pope, who's Leo the tenth, he issues, a a papal bull, which Protestants always find very amusing.

是的。

Yeah.

但这是一份正式的教皇公告，其中警告路德，除非他撤回各种异端言论，否则将被开除教籍。

But it you know, it's official papal announcement, in which he warns Luther that, you know, he is going to be excommunicated unless he retracts all kinds of, heretical statements.

你知道，开除教籍是必然会发生的事。

You know, excommunication is is absolutely happening.

这份诏书被称为《主啊，起来吧》。

And this bull is called, ex Serge Domine, arise, o lord.

是的。

Yep.

它于1520年发布。

It gets issued in in the in the 1520.

在12月10日，路德得到了一份副本，并公开地、极具象征性地将其烧毁。

On the December 10, Luther has a copy of it, and he very, very publicly, very symbolically burns it.

是的。

Yeah.

这不就是一场盛大的公开仪式吗？

Doesn't he it's this great public spectacle, isn't it?

但他大量地大喊大叫，说什么敌基督之类的话。

But he put puts it in the final a lot of shouting about antichrist or something.

总是有很多关于敌基督的喧嚣。

There's always a lot of shouting about antichrist.

他去了维滕贝格的三个城门之一，那里有个垃圾坑。

He he goes to one of the three city gates of Wittenberg, and there's it's a a kind of carrion pit.

那里是人们焚烧旧衣物的地方。

It's where, people burn, kind of old clothing.

那是处理垃圾的地方。

It's it's a place where you get rid of rubbish.

对。

Right.

这基本上就是个市政垃圾场。

It's like basically a municipal tip, basically.

这就是个市政垃圾场。

It's a municipal tip.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

他跑遍了维滕贝格所有的图书馆，试图找出所有的教会法典书籍，也就是那些专门适用于教会的法律。

And, he's got he's gone he's gone rushing around all the libraries of of Wittenberg, trying to get out, books of canon law, which is the, you know, the law that specifically applies, to to to the church.

他把它们堆起来，扔进火里，还把那封威胁要将他逐出教会的教皇诏书——《Exsurge Domine》——也扔了进去。

And he piles them up, and he chucks them on the fire, and he chucks ex Sergei Domine, this papal bull that's threatening him with excommunication, on the fire as well.

哇。

Wow.

而且，是的，他大量称教皇为敌基督，诸如此类的话。

And, yeah, there's a lot of you know, he calls the pope antichrist, all that kind of stuff.

你知道，他是在故意挑衅被逐出教会。

You know, it's it's he he he's courting excommunication.

他正巴不得呢。

He wants it.

而且，你知道，果然，他得到了这些，就在这一天他得到了这些。

And, you know, sure enough, that's what he gets, and that that's what he gets on this day.

但是，汤姆，我知道这是一个庞大的话题。

But but, Tom, I know this is a colossal topic.

他的动机是什么？

What's his motive?

他认为自己是在执行上帝的旨意。

He thinks he's doing god's will.

对。

Right.

在1517年之前，是什么让他发生了转变？

And what has converted him prior to 1517?

哦，多米尼克。

Oh, Dominic.

我的意思是，那就是

This I mean, that that's

你能用一句话回答这个问题吗？

Are you able to answer that in one sentence?

我想，宗教改革最根本的基础、对天主教会权威的核心挑战，就是路德的观点：你不需要教会的上层结构来获得救赎，救赎是上帝的恩赐。

I I suppose the the the kind of the bedrock of the reformation, the the the central challenge to the authority of the Catholic church is Luther's idea, you don't need the superstructure of the church to provide you with salvation, that that is God's gift.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这关乎你与上帝的个人关系。

And that therefore, it's your personal relationship with God.

这关乎你与圣灵的个人关系。

It's your personal relationship with the spirit.

真正决定你作为基督徒行为的，应该是你与圣经的个人关系。

It's your personal relationship with scripture that should that that should determine your behavior as a Christian.

这就是为什么他焚烧了教会法典的书籍，因为他逐渐认识到，天主教会声称唯有通过教皇支持下的天主教会才能得救，这种说法是错误的。

And that all so this is why he burns the books of of canon law is that he comes to see the claims of the the Catholic church to embody you know, that there is no salvation except through through through the Catholic church underpinned by the papacy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是为什么他把天主教会看作是对基督教教义的一种扭曲的怪物，也因此他将教皇这一形象视为如此。

And that's why he he comes to see the Catholic church as a kind of monstrous distortion of Christian teaching, and it's why he sees the figure of the pope.

所以不是指个别教皇，而是指教皇制度本身，本质上是敌基督。

So not the individual popes, but the, you know, the papacy as essentially antichrist.

毫无疑问，按照天主教会的标准，路德完全该被逐出教会。

And, you know, there is no question that by the standards of the Catholic church, Luther entirely merits excommunication.

所以，可以说，存在着绝对的、十、二十、三十、四十、五十种差异。

So there's there's there's kind of, you know, there's there's absolute, you know, tens, twenty, thirty, forty, 50.

你可以简单地理解为：称义与成圣的分离、外在的、法律性的、归算的称义、信靠性的信心、个人判断对抗教会无误性、拒绝七卷次经、否认小罪、否认功绩、唯独圣经。

You could just kind of so separation of justification from sanctification, extrinsic forensic imputed justification, fiduciary faith, private judgment over against ecclesiastical infallibility, the rejection of the seven deuterocanonical books, the denial of venial sin, the denial of merit, sola scriptura.

所以，只有圣经，而不是天主教会的教规，强调彻底的个人判断——因为我们都是祭司。

So only, you know, only only scripture, not the kind of the canons of the Catholic church, radically private judgment if we are all priests.

既然我们都是祭司，为什么我们不能也有权检验和判断信仰事务中的对错呢？

Why should we not also have the power to test and judge what is right or wrong in matters of faith?

否认教皇有权力给予劝诫。

Denial that the pope has the right to counsel.

只有被称义的人才能行善事。

Only justified men can do good works.

我的意思是，这些我就不一一细说了。

I mean, these are so I won't go through them all.

我们的记者听到这个会松一口气。

Our journalists will be relieved to hear.

但本质上，这些都是对天主教会所构建的一切的系统性攻击，不仅针对中世纪以来的传统，甚至包括许多晚期古代的教义。

But but, essentially, what these are systematic attacks on everything that the Catholic church has constructed, not just over the course of the Middle Ages, but in many cases over the period of late antiquity as well.

因此，这就是为什么这场变革如此具有颠覆性，并且引发了至今仍持续的深刻分裂。

And so this is why this is why it is so seismic, but and it's generated this this profound schism that endures to this day.

而且，基督徒们一直梦想着能够治愈这种分裂。

And, you know, it's one that that Christians continue to dream of of healing.

但这不会发生，对吧？

That's not gonna happen, though, is it?

嗯，两年前，也就是2020年，有一群神学家加入了名为阿尔滕贝格普世圆桌会议的团体，是的。

Well, so so so two years ago in 2020, there were, there was a group of of theologians who belonged to something called the Altenberg Ecumenical Roundtable Yeah.

这个组织是在1999年左右成立的，我想是这样。

Which had been founded back, I think, 1999, something like that.

他们知道周年纪念日快到了。

And they they knew that the the the anniversary was coming up.

是的。

Yep.

于是他们提出，不如来个互惠交换？

So they said, what about kind of quid pro quo?

也就是说，教皇撤回这份文件，而信义宗世界联盟则承认教皇不是敌基督。

So that the the pope would essentially withdraw this communication, and the Lutheran World Federation would kind of agree that the pope wasn't the antichrist.

哇。

And Wow.

你知道，这难道不是一种不错的互惠交换吗？

You know, wouldn't this be wouldn't this be a kind of, you know, a good quid

交换？

pro quo?

路德宗做出了一个重大让步。

A big concession from the Lutherans.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我了解到，路德宗世界联合会并没有权利代表所有路德宗信徒这样说。

I mean Well, I I gather, that that the Lutheran World Federation doesn't have the right speak for Lutherans in this way.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

因为他们都是新教徒，所以这不过是，你知道的，是的。

Because they're all Protestants, so that's all, you know Yeah.

所以你们每个人都依靠自己的个人

So you all use your own individual

判断。

judgment.

是的。

Yeah.

你依靠自己的个人判断。

You use your own individual judgment.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这正是问题所在。

So that's kind of the problem.

但显然这种情况并没有发生。

But that that obviously hasn't happened.

没有。

No.

我的意思是，我觉得如果有人在讨论这件事的话。

I mean, I think if there is kind of talk talk about it.

我们2016年去德国度假，那是在威腾堡钉论纲或未钉论纲周年纪念的前一年，当时他们在售卖，我们买了一个马丁·路德的乐高人偶。

Well, we went to, Germany on holiday in, 2016, so the year before the anniversary of the the nailing or the non nailing of the theses in in Wittenberg, and they were selling, and we bought a Playmobil figure of Martin

我认为这是德国卖得最好的乐高人偶。

I I think the the best selling Playmobil figure in Germany.

真的全部都是吗？

Of all really?

我觉得是的。

I think so.

像那样非同寻常的东西。

Something extraordinary like that.

所以乐高人偶在德国相当重要，因为它是德国的产品。

So Playmobil is quite a big deal in Germany because it is German.

所以在纽伦堡外有一个乐高人偶公园，我们去过。

So there's a Playmobil park outside Nuremberg, which we've been to.

是的。

Yeah.

我们买了马丁·路德和阿尔布雷希特·丢勒的玩偶，

And we bought Martin Luther and Albrecht Durer,

他也是

who also is a

乐高人偶。

Playmobil figure.

我知道马丁·路德的乐高人偶卖得非常好。

Well, I know that the Martin Luther, Playmobil character sold incredibly well.

他是

He's a

很棒的造型。

great figure.

我们以前经常用他，我和我儿子会用乐高和乐高人偶摆战场，让马丁·路德率领一支庞大的新教军队，里面还混着戴立克和星球大战的风暴兵。

We used to use him in bat we used to I used to arrange battles with my son's Playmobil in LEGO figures in which kind of Martin Luther would be leading a huge army of Protestants with with sort of Daleks in it and Star Wars stormtroopers.

他有教皇吗？

Did he get a pope?

对抗教皇的军队。

Against the armies of the pope.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，他有教皇吗？

Well, did he get a pope?

我让《星球大战》里的皇帝来当教皇。

I get, like, the emperor from Star Wars to be the pope.

嗯，这挺有象征意义的。

Well, was quite loaded.

这确实很丰富，非常丰富，我感觉特别丰富。

It was quite it was quite I quite loaded.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但我的意思是

But, I mean

好的。

Okay.

嗯，这是一个

Well It's

非常爱国的游戏。

a very patriotic game.

这很奇怪，这简直就是一种非常英国中产阶级的做法。

It's strange that's a very middle English thing to be doing.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我觉得大多数听众会觉得这完全合理，而且他们很可能也有类似的经历。

I think I think most of the listeners will think that completely reasonable, and probably they've got similar stories to

我想他们自己也会讲出来。

tell themselves, I imagine.

紧接着，我们就失去了所有天主教听众。

And, promptly, we lose all our Catholic listeners.

我为

I apologize for

这个道歉。

that.

我们即将带来一段精彩的天主教内容。

We've got a great bit of Catholicism coming up.

我们确实有一位很棒的天主教徒，对吧？

We do have a great we've got a great Catholic, haven't we?

是的。

We have.

出色的天主教徒。

Great Catholic.

顶尖的天主教徒。

A top Catholic.

顶尖的天主教徒。

Top Catholic.

所以你曾在《Unheard》中写过他。

So You wrote about in Unheard.

我故意完全没有提及他的天主教背景。

And I deliberately did not mention his Catholicism at all.

我生气了吗？

And was I cross?

纯粹是为了宣传。

Just out of propagandism.

你生气了。

You were cross.

是的。

Yeah.

你生气了。

You were cross.

你确实生气了，但我觉得你当时也有一点觉得好笑。

You were cross, but I think you were a little bit amused at the same time.

嗯，我认为托尔金出生在这一天

Well, I think So I think that Tolkien born on this day

是的。

Yeah.

这是多米尼克的选择，与本节目前半部分的新教基调形成平衡。

Is Dominic's choice, and counterbalances the the Lutheran tone of the first half of this.

所以我们该开始讨论了。

So we should come to talking.

我们先在广告后继续讨论。

Let's come to talking after the break.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到我们今天的新教与天主教主题特别节目。

Welcome back to our Protestant Catholic themed special today.

在上半部分，我们讲到了路德被开除教籍。

We've had Luther being excommunicated in the first half.

在第二部分，多米尼克，是J.R.R.托尔金的生日。

And in the second half, Dominic, it's JRR Tolkien's birthday.

J.R.R.托尔金出生了。

JRR Tolkien being born.

所以今天是他的生日。

So it's his birthday.

他是1892年3月1日出生的。

It's the 01/03/1892.

你知道托尔金出生在哪里吗，汤姆？

You know where where Tolkien is born, Tom?

我知道。

I do.

布隆方丹。

Bloemfontein.

是的。

Yeah.

布隆方丹，当时属于奥兰治自由邦。

Bloemfontein in the orange free state as it then was.

所以托尔金一家，对于一位如此英国化的作家来说，他其实有德国血统，

So he's the Tolkien family, for for a a very English writer, he's got quite a sort of He was German,

他们不是吗？

weren't they?

是的。

Yeah.

他们是德国人。

They're Germans.

他们据称来自，

They're from apparently, they

是托尔金家族的后裔。

were fall of a toque.

所以这个托尔金家族。

So the the kind of the the Tolk toque.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他们来自德国哪里？

The German they're from?

他们来自东普鲁士。

They're from East Prussia.

我知道这一点。

I did know that.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们现在不再是德国人了。

So they wouldn't be German now.

他们现在生活在俄罗斯的飞地上。

They would be kind of living in a Russian enclave.

所以他们来自现在叫加里宁格勒的地方，但当时叫柯尼斯堡。

So they come from the what's now in Kaliningrad, but what was then Konigsberg.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

康德的故乡。

Home of Kant.

他的最早已知祖先是一位名叫米歇尔·托尔金的人，出生于1620年左右。

And it's sort of so his earliest known ancestor is somebody called Michel Tolkien, born around 1620.

他们后来在近代早期搬到了英格兰，并在伦敦和伯明翰制造钟表、手表和钢琴。

And they were well, they moved to to sort of to England in the early modern period at some point, and they made clocks, watches, and pianos in London and Birmingham.

无论如何，亚瑟·托尔金——托尔金的父亲——出生于1857年。

Anyway, Arthur Tolkien, who is Tolkien's father, he was born in 1857.

他是一名银行经理。

He was a bank manager, rather.

很平淡无奇。

Unexcitingly.

是的。

Yes.

命运之剑。

The sword of fate.

毁灭之戒。

The ring of doom.

对。

Yeah.

命运的银行对账单。

The bank statement of destiny.

没错。

Exactly.

嗯，你的脑海里如果充满这些东西，那就会这样。

Well, you would I mean, that's that's what would fill your mind with all this stuff if you're Yeah.

大概是寄一份银行对账单，你知道的，或者支票本给格拉德里尔之类的人。

Was kinda sending a bank statement, you know, a checkbook to Gladrial or something.

所以他是一名银行经理，和妻子梅布尔一起被派往

So he's a bank manager, and he is posted with his wife, Mabel, to

这又是，我的意思是，这并不是

Which is the again, a very I mean, it's not a

他们被银行派往布隆方丹。

they're posted to Bloemfontein by the bank.

他去银行上班。

And he goes off to to work in the bank.

托尔金于1892年3月1日出生。

And Tolkien is born in the on the 01/03/1892.

他的兄弟，你知道

And his brother do you know

他兄弟叫什么名字吗？

what his brother's name was?

不知道。

No.

希拉里。

Hillary.

希拉里？

Hillary?

希拉里。

Hillary.

他后来成了什么？

What did he become?

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许他也当了银行经理。

Maybe he became a back manager as well.

他并没有写过一系列奇幻小说。

He didn't write a sort of series of fantasy novels.

所以，对。

So Right.

我觉得我们可以把可怜的老希拉里抛在脑后了。

I think we can forget about poor old Hillary.

他出生于1894年。

He was born in 1894.

当托尔金 Jr. 三岁时，他们基本上决定回英国做一次长时间的访问。

And, basically, when Tolkien JR was three, they basically decided to go back to England for a big visit.

于是他妈妈带着他和他弟弟上了船，启程出发了。

So his mom gets on the boat with him and his brother, and off they go.

他爸爸还有一些工作要处理，所以会稍后跟上他们。

And his father has got some work to do, so he's gonna follow them later.

他得了风湿热。

And he gets rheumatic fever.

我其实不知道那是什么，但听起来是

I don't actually know what that is, but it's

听起来很糟糕。

It sounds bad.

这很糟糕。

It's bad.

他还没来得及上船去和他们会合就去世了。

And he dies before he even gets on the boat to join them.

所以你意思是，他根本不记得自己的父亲。

So you're talking never remembered his father.

所以他根本不记得自己的父亲。

So never remembered his father.

他们当时在英格兰探望母亲的家人，结果不得不永远留下来。

So they're in England visiting his mother's family, and they basically have to stay forever.

于是他们最终定居在伯明翰，起初是和她父母住在一起。

So they end up staying in Birmingham, and they stay in a place well, initially, they live with her parents.

到了1896年，当时托尔金四岁，他们搬到了一个叫瑟尔霍尔的村庄。

And in 1896, someone talking is four, they moved to this village of Searhole.

那是一个位于北伍斯特郡的村庄。

And then it was a it was a village in North Worcestershire.

现在它基本上位于伯明翰的郊区。

Now it's basically in Suburban Birmingham.

你可以去参观，我已经去过那个磨坊，它正是灵感来源。

And you can visit the I have visited the mill, which is the inspiration for the mill.

那里有一个磨坊和一片沼泽，它们是《魔戒》中某些地貌的灵感来源。

There's a mill and there's a bog, and they're the inspiration for some of the sort of the the landscapes of the Lord of the Rings.

所以托尔金笔下的夏尔就是这里吗？

So Tolkien Is it the Shire?

没错。

Exactly.

这就是夏尔。

It is the Shire.

然后我认为托尔金的……

And then I think Tolkien's

当伯明翰逐渐扩张时，这就像是夏尔的浩劫。

fact when And Birmingham kinda moves in, it's the harrowing of the Shire.

没错。

Exactly.

伯明翰吞噬了它。

Birmingham swallowed up.

就在托尔金还是个男孩，然后是青少年的那一刻，郊区的触角正悄然蔓延。

At exactly the moment when Tolkien is kind of a a boy and then a teenager, the sort of tentacles of suburban Bordeaux.

在那种……

In the sort

爱德华时代的，是的。

of Edwardian yeah.

爱德华时代的开发商正在吞没一切。

Edwardian developers are swallowing it all up.

但当托尔金12岁时，他的父亲在南非去世了。

But but when Tolkien is 12 so he's lost his father in South Africa.

然后当他12岁时，他的母亲也去世了。

And then when he is 12, his mother dies.

她患有糖尿病。

She's a diabetic.

在那个年代，像她这种类型的糖尿病患者通常活不到三十五岁左右，而她确实没有活过。

And in those days, diabetics, with her particular kind of diabetes, didn't generally live beyond their mid thirties, and she doesn't.

所以她去世了。

So she dies.

那里有一位天主教神父，与这家人关系非常亲密，因为他们本来就是天主教徒。

A priest there there's a pre Catholic priest who's very close to the family because, of course, they're Catholics.

是的。

Mhmm.

他和这家人关系非常亲密。

He's very close to the family.

他安排托尔金兄弟俩搬到伯明翰市中心的一位姨妈家生活。

He arranges for the two Tolkien boys to go and live with an aunt in the center of Birmingham, basically.

所以如果有人从伯明翰市中心到波尔多市中心的话。

So if anyone's been in from the center of Birmingham to the the middle of Bordeaux.

他们住在埃德巴斯顿，离现在如果你开车经过伯明翰就会看到的那个叫五路环岛的大转盘非常近。

They live very in Edgbaston, very close to what is now, if you've ever driven through Birmingham, this big roundabout called the 5 Ways Roundabout.

还有板球场，当然。

But also the cricket ground, of course.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得托尔金并不是一个出色的板球手。

Well, I don't think Tolkien was a great cricketer.

他其实是个橄榄球运动员。

He's a rugby man, actually.

他是个橄榄球选手。

He's a rugby player.

于是他们搬去那里住，他们往外看，他从窗户望出去，看到的是工厂、仓库、商店之类的。

So they go and live there, and they look out, and he looks out of his window, and there's factories, and there's warehouses, and shops, and stuff.

你完全可以理解那种怀旧之情从何而来，那种对失落乐园的感伤，对工业、城市化和现代性的恐惧，这一切都融入了故事中

And you can absolutely see where the nostalgia comes from, where the sense of a sort of lost paradise, where there's sort of horror at industry and urbanism and modernity, all of that is woven into the story of

这种童年经历。

this kind of boyhood.

因为当我年轻时读《魔戒》时，我完全没注意到这些，全都错过了。

Well, because when I read Lord of the Rings as a you know, when I was young, I all of none of this, I missed it all.

现在你

Now you

确实如此。

really did.

你完全能看出，这是一部伟大的小说，堪称最伟大的反城市主义小说之一。

And you completely see that it's one of the great novels of you know, it's one of the great anti urban novels.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一部非常绿色的小说。

It's one of the it's it's it's it's it's a very green novel.

确实是。

It is.

而且这一主题，我认为人们直到七十年代才注意到。

And that that's a theme that I think people never never noticed until probably the seventies.

这是

It's one of

对工业化影响最出色的描绘之一。

the great portrayals of the impacts of industrialization.

确实是。

It is.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

确实是。

It is.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

确实是。

It is.

而且它不像魔多那样工业化，对吧？

And and it's not Mordor as industrial, isn't it?

然后，当然，结尾处夏尔被清扫的场景

And then, of course, the scouring of the Shire scene at the end of the

但萨鲁曼才是关键人物。

But Saruman is the is the the key figure.

他是。

He is.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他着迷于他的创造力，不是吗？

Because he's fascinated by he's ingenious, isn't he?

他总是制造机器，是的。

He's he's always creating machines and Yeah.

机器。

Machines.

火与机器。

Fire and machines.

当然。

Absolutely.

我知道有些人

And I know there were some people

优生学，确实有人谈论过

Eugenics and talk There were

有些人听这个时，讨厌托尔金，讨厌《魔戒》，讨厌奇幻类型，我认为这完全合理。

some people listen to this who who hate Tolkien and hate the Lord of the Rings and hate the fantasy genre, and that I think is completely fair enough.

我认为你没有理由非得喜欢它。

I think you there's no reason why you should like it.

但即使你不喜欢它，它仍然重要，因为它是一面反映二十世纪关切的绝佳镜子。

But even if you don't like it, it does still matter because it is a brilliant mirror to the concerns of the twentieth century.

而有如此多数百万人喜欢它，这说明了它的影响力。

And the fact that so many millions of people did like it tells you something that about its power.

但我也想说，是的。

But also, I would say Yeah.

一面映照出二十世纪天主教徒和更广泛基督徒关切的镜子。

A mirror held up to the concerns of Catholics and Christians more generally in the twentieth century.

告诉我们。

And Tell us

继续说下去。

a time go on.

他们？我会给你一些余地。

Are they I'll give you a little bit of leeway.

一点点。

A little bit.

我会说，我写过关于托尔金的

I would say so I wrote about Tolkien in

顺便说一句，为了让听众了解，当他这么说的时候，他其实正在酝酿中。

the in By the way, just so the listeners know, as he's saying all I would say, he's kinda gearing up.

我能感受到他身后那张纸片或楔形纸的作用吗？

Can I get the sense of this cross or wedge of paper behind him?

他要开始读了。

He's gonna start reading.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我不是。

I'm I'm I'm not.

但我当时的理由是，我把他写进了一个主要关于第一次世界大战、法西斯主义兴起和第二次世界大战的章节。

But the justification that I had so I I included him in a chapter that was basically about the first world war, the rise of fascism, and second world war.

我想，你知道，《魔戒》真的能承受住我打算加在它肩上的重担吗？

I thought, you know, is is Lord of the Rings sufficient to bear the weight that it's it you know, I'm gonna impose on its shoulders?

我认为可以，原因比较复杂，涉及托尔金对犹太人、纳粹以及英国皇家空军在德国实施的轰炸行动的态度。

I I think it is for kind of complex reasons to do with, Tolkien's attitude to, to to the Jews, to, to the Nazis, to the firebombings that the RAF carried out in Germany.