13. 史蒂芬·弗雷与特洛伊

如果你想从节目中获得更多内容，就加入'历史的余韵'俱乐部吧。

If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.

随着圣诞节的临近，你还可以为你生活中的历史爱好者赠送一整年的访问权限。

And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.

只需访问rest ishistory.com并点击礼物选项。

Just head to the rest ishistory.com and click gifts.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎来到'历史的余韵'。

Welcome to the rest is history.

真的，今天这里是个灰蒙蒙的老日子，雨无情地倾盆而下。我多么希望能有一点爱琴海的阳光啊。

Really, it's a gray old day here, the rain pouring relentlessly down What I wouldn't give for a little bit of the Aegean sunshine.

嗯，碰巧的是，汤姆·霍兰德总是随身带着一点希腊的气息。

Well, as it happens, Tom Holland always brings a little bit of Greece with him.

不是吗，汤姆？

Don't you, Tom?

非常感谢你，多米尼克。

Thank you so much, Dominic.

这话说得真动听。

That is a charming thing to say.

事实上，你已经非常慷慨地允许我做了一期关于古希腊的节目。

And in fact, you you have very kindly already allowed me to do one episode on ancient Greece.

我们讲述了特洛伊战争，而因为我贪恋美好的事物，我想再次回到这个话题。今天我们将更广泛地探讨，不仅限于特洛伊战争，而是整个希腊神话领域。但这次会是一期与众不同的播客，因为这是我们第一次邀请嘉宾，我认为当我们首次邀请嘉宾时，必须是一位特别的嘉宾。

We covered the Trojan War and because I'm a glutton for good things I would like to return to that and today we are going to look perhaps more broadly not just the Trojan War but at the whole field of Greek mythology but it's going to be a different kind of podcast because for the first time we have a guest and I think that you know when we have our first guest on this podcast it's got to be a special guest.

确实如此。

Definitely.

嗯，

Well,

多米尼克，作为我们的首位嘉宾，我选择了一位博学者、喜剧演员、演员、小说家，一位全方位的文艺复兴式人物。我认为热爱古希腊，尤其是其神话，正是文艺复兴人的定义。

Dominic, for our first guest, I've chosen a polymath, a comedian, an actor, a novelist, an all around Renaissance man, and it's the definition of a Renaissance man, I think, that he should love ancient Greece and perhaps specifically its mythology.

因此我邀请的这位文艺复兴人就是斯蒂芬·弗莱先生，他正从加州加入我们，并有一本关于特洛伊战争的新书问世。

So the Renaissance man that I have invited on is mister Stephen Fry, who is joining us from California, has a new book out on the Trojan War.

史蒂文，非常感谢你加入我们。

Steven, thanks so much for joining us.

这是我的荣幸。

It's a pleasure.

作为一位文艺复兴式的人物，为了向你致敬，我甚至穿了紧身裤。

And as a renaissance man, in your honor, I'm even wearing tights.

虽然我们看不见

Which we can't see

现场的情况。

on the scene.

我相信听起来一定非常美妙

I'm sure it sounds absolutely gorgeous

在桌子下面。

under the desk.

所以，史蒂文，我们已经做过一期关于特洛伊战争的节目了，能再次回到这个话题真是太好了。

So, Steven, we we've already had one episode on the trade war, so it it it is a treat to get back to it.

而你还有一本关于这个主题的新书，这是你写的关于希腊神话系列书籍中的第三本。

And you you've got, new book about it, and it's the third in sequence of of books that you've written about Greek myths.

你有多期待写到特洛伊战争的部分？

How much were you looking forward to getting to the Trojan War?

非常期待。

Enormously.

我的意思是，既怀着积极的心态，也带着些许忧虑，因为我知道至少特洛伊战争及其后续传说（哈哈）将标志着希腊神话故事的终结。

I mean, both as, in in a positive way and also the slight sense of dread because I knew that at least the Trojan War and its aftermath or after myth, ho ho, would lead to an end of the story of Greek myth.

人们可能过分夸大了希腊神话的塑造程度，以及它在多大程度上是文学表演而非民间表演。

One can overdo how shaped Greek myth is and how how much of a literary performance rather than a folk performance it it might be.

但比起大多数神话体系，它似乎从众神诞生之初开始，到奥德修斯等角色归乡结束——希腊人称之为‘归途’，那种美妙的归家感，很容易象征性地被视为人类回归自我，不再需要神明来解释世界的奇异现象或像过去几乎所有文化中那样干预人间事务。

But more than most mythic cycles, it seems to begin at the beginning with the birth of the gods and and end with the coming home of characters like Odysseus, the the nostos as the Greeks call it, that wonderful sense of home, which can so easily symbolically seem like mankind coming home to itself and no longer needing gods to explain the oddities of the world or to interfere and intervene in the way the gods used to do and used to do in in almost all cultures.

而且你知道，英国民间传说中也有精灵和小矮人曾与我们共处的说法。

And, you know, British folk had fairies and little people who used to dwell amongst us supposedly.

几乎所有神话都有这种观念：曾有一个神与人共行于大地的时代。

And and almost all myths have have this idea that there was a time when gods and men trod the earth together.

事实上它必须有个终结，特洛伊战争尤其是英雄们的归乡——阿伽门农悲剧性的回归、海伦与墨涅拉俄斯不那么愉快的归来，以及奥德修斯看似圆满地回到家中炉火旁，回归各自的家庭与世俗纷争，而不再只是众神操纵的傀儡，这种结局本身就蕴含着一种美妙的圆满感。

And the fact that it had to come to an end somehow, that the Trojan War and particularly the coming home, even the tragic coming home of Agamemnon and and and the slightly less happy coming home of Helen and Menelaus and the apparently happy coming home of of Odysseus to the hearth, to to their own families, to their own problems and squabbles rather than just continuing to be puppets of the gods is a wonderful sense of closure anyway.

但特洛伊战争正是众神与人类在烈日尘土中最后一场惊天动地的共舞。

But the Trojan War is the final explosion of gods and and humanity broiling together under the sun in the dust.

这是我真正期待已久的事情。

And that's something I've I've really looked forward to.

说实话，我不太期待的是那种充满男子气概的肉搏战，这在《伊利亚特》中占了很大篇幅，因为我不认为自己是这样的人。

I tell you the thing I didn't look forward to, because I don't think of myself as that sort of person, was the butch mano a mano fighting that formed so much of the Iliad.

我原以为会有些乏味，但重读时发现，它美得惊人，充满诗意，力量十足，堪称完美。

And I thought I would get rather but, you know, reading it again, it is extraordinary how beautiful, poetic, strong, and and and and perfect, really.

荷马描写这些战斗时，你会以为它们会变得重复乏味，即使在暴力场景中——比如血液和脑浆从头盔中喷出，以及一些相当电影化且恐怖的画面——你会以为自己已经厌倦了这些。

Homer's writing about these fights is you would think they become repetitive and boring even in the violence of, you know, blood blood and brains shooting out of the sockets of a helmet and, you know, some of the really quite cinematic and horrific images, you you would think you're tired of them.

但实际上，在这场战争中确实存在着某种真正高尚而卓越的东西，这是我从未预料到的，因为我一直认为自己是我们这个时代的典型产物——对军国主义和武士道精神不屑一顾，认为那是斯巴达人的把戏，而我们都是雅典人。

But, actually, there's something quite genuinely noble and remarkable about the fighting, which I never thought I would find because I think of myself as a typical child of my age for whom militarism and the warrior code is for saps and is for Spartans, and we're all Athenians.

你知道吗？

You know?

那种感觉就是有点过头了，我们现在称之为‘有毒的男子气概’。

That that sort of sense that it's a bit a bit over it's part of what we now call toxic masculinity.

然而像埃阿斯、赫克托尔、阿喀琉斯和狄俄墨得斯这些角色，你知道的，故事中真正的战士，与奥德修斯、涅斯托尔等精明的谋士截然不同。

This and and yet characters like Ajax and Hector and Achilles and Diomedes, you know, the the real warriors in the story as opposed to the, you know, sharp operators like Odysseus and Nestor and so on.

他们身上有一种特质，跨越数千年依然能与你对话，这实在令人惊叹。

They there there is a quality to them that that continues to speak to you across the thousands of years that that is just remarkable.

我很高兴我的出版商在阅读手稿时发现，特洛伊城墙前沙场上的实际战斗对他们来说是非常重要的部分。

And I was very pleased that my publishers, when they read the manuscript, they they found that that the actual fighting in the sand in front of the walls of Troy was, for them, really important part of it.

我知道汤姆想问你很多关于神话的问题，但有一点让我很感兴趣——你这个系列的第一本书是关于众神的，然后你写了英雄？

If I can I know Tom wants to ask you lots of questions about myth in general, but one thing that interests me so your first book in this cycle was about the gods, then you sort of did heroes?

而这本书你稍微偏向历史，因为特洛伊战争是一个人们争论不休的事件。

And this one, you've moved a tiny bit more towards history because the Trojan War is an event that people argue about.

那么你在写作时是否有意识地采用了与前几本书相同的叙事风格？

So was that did you write about it in exactly were you conscious of adopting the same voices it were that you had with the earlier books?

这是个非常好的观点，多米尼克。

It it's a really good point there, Dominic.

是的，这正是我之前所说的，关于整个故事的神话性质逐渐走向终结，开始渗入某种历史真实性。

And, yes, it's part of what I was saying about coming to the end of the the the mythic nature of this whole story as it becomes to to leak into historicity of some kind.

我认为可以公平地说，在现代（我们所谓的现代）的大部分时间里，我们并不认为特洛伊战争有任何历史依据，直到施里曼在十九世纪末期的发掘工作之后，这种认为它确实可能发生过、在那样的历史地点可能有过一场战争的想法才变得越来越清晰。

I think it's fair to say that for most of the modern age, what we call the modern age, we didn't think of the Trojan War as having any historical basis, and it wasn't really until Schliemann and the late nineteenth century and his excavations that this idea that it could really have happened, that there could have been a war in a historical place like that became clearer and clearer.

当然，这完全是另一个故事了。

Though, of course, that's a whole other story.

施里曼是个表演者，也是个骗子，诸如此类。

Schliemann was a showman and a fraud and all kinds of things.

正如一些考古学家指出的那样，他用炸药和对遗址的重新调整，最终以一种希腊军队永远无法做到的方式摧毁了特洛伊。

And as as some archaeologists made made the point that with his dynamite and his readjusting of the sites, he he finally destroyed Troy in a way that the Greek armies never could.

不过，这确实很有趣。

But, yes, it is interesting.

我对此有个形象化的比喻，相当可爱，我想，因此不一定可信，但在某种程度上它是个有效的类比。

And I I had an image for it, which is rather cute, I suppose, and therefore, not necessarily to be trusted, but it it works as an analogy to some extent.

当你从神话的最初开始讲述时，你会遇到这些近乎原型的人物，这些原始神祇就是他们所代表的本质。

That when you begin at the very beginning of the myths, you you have these almost archetypal figures, these primordial deities who are what they represent.

所以我们戏称乌拉诺斯为天王星，他实际上就是天空的化身。

So Ouranos, whom we amusingly call Uranus, of course, is the sky.

直到今天，希腊语中'天空'一词仍然是Ouranos。

And to this day, the Greek word for sky is Ouranos.

从这个意义上说，这些神话人物其实是人类对世界和宇宙中抽象概念或气象元素的拟人化，人们赋予它们名字和能动性。

So in that sense, you're talking about personifications of abstract or meteorological ideas and elements in the world and the cosmos that humans apprehend, and they give them a name and an agency.

这就是最基础的神明形态。

And that's a very basic god.

我记得当时在想，这有点像电脑游戏早期，第一代四位元计算时代，画面非常方块化，分辨率很低。

And and I remember thinking this is a bit like the early days of computer gaming when in the first generation of four bit computing, it was very blocky, and there was no resolution.

没有曲线。

There were no curves.

颜色非常基础，只有光的三原色，你知道的，红、绿、蓝和黄。

The colors were very basic, just the primary colors of light, you know, red, green, blue, and and yellow.

后来到了八位元和十六位元时代，就开始出现图形界所谓的抗锯齿效果了。

And and then eight bits and 16 bits, you started to get anti aliasing as they call it in the graphics world.

于是你有了这些多边形，形状更多样，分辨率更高，因为计算能力更强大了。

And you've got these polygons with more shapes and more resolution because there was more power and more computing.

所以到了世纪之交时，每一代新的计算机图形都变得更加清晰、丰富、复杂和真实。

So by the time you got to the turn of the century, each new generation of computer graphics was becoming more resolved, richer, more complex, more real.

希腊神话中的人物性格发展也是如此。

And it's the same with the personalities of Greek myth.

最初是这些基本元素：天空、大地、黑暗，还有光明。

It starts with these, the sky, the earth, darkness, you know, light.

这些就是最初的神明，比如埃忒耳等等。

These are the gods, Etherb, you know, and so on.

然后从这些元素中诞生了泰坦神族，他们有了更多个性特征。

And then the race of titans is born from that, and they have a little more personality.

你可以看到克洛诺斯和其他泰坦神在瑞亚身上体现的特征。

You can see Kronos and the others in in Rhea.

他们确实已经具备了鲜明的个性。

They they've got they've definitely got personality.

他们甚至只有8位或16位分辨率。

They're eight bit or 16 bit even.

但他们的子女——宙斯、赫拉、波塞冬、得墨忒耳等众神，则真正具备了鲜明的性格特征与丰富的个性内涵。

And but then their children, Zeus and Hera and Poseidon and and Demeter and so on, they they really have character and personality and richness.

再到之后的世代，包括普罗米修斯创造的人类，

And and then the next generations, including, of course, humankind that are made by Prometheus.

于是就像我说的，这开始有点像电子游戏的发展轨迹。

And and so you start to get this, as I say, a bit like computer gaming.

你开始看到由神性存在构成的图景——这些实体具有真实的模糊性、复杂性与矛盾性。

You start to get a a landscape of entities of divine beings that have real ambiguity and complexity and contradiction.

用伊恩·福斯特的话说，他们是立体角色而非扁平角色。

They are, as Iain Foster would say, rounded characters rather than flat characters.

他们具有高分辨率。

They have resolution.

要知道，他们可是4K HDR级别的。

You know, they're four k HDR.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且，当你进入特洛伊战争的舞台时，这一点变得更加真实——你会看到推动故事发展的并非简单的粗俗欲望或野心，而是人性与神性的缺陷，以及那些至今仍被人们追问的矛盾动机。

And and and they've got all the all and and that that becomes even truer as you move into the into the Trojan arena where you can see it is all about the flaws in humanity and in the gods that that drive the story rather than just plain clunky lust or ambition, but but conflicting motives that that give rise to questions that people still ask today.

当然，我这么说似乎假设大家都了解特洛伊战争的故事。但或许人们至少知道——正如历史学家喜欢说的——整个事件的导火索（casus belli）、争议核心或者说'不和的金苹果'，其实都与斯巴达的海伦有关。她被劫持（我用这个词）带到特洛伊，成为了特洛伊的海伦。

So, of course, I'm talking as if assuming that everybody knows the story of the Trojan War, but perhaps people will know enough at least to know that the the proschema, as historians like to say, the the casus belli, the the cause of the whole thing, the bone of contention or the apple of discord, in fact, is all about Helen of Sparta who is abducted, and there I've used the word and taken to to Troy and becomes Helen of Troy.

当然，正如我所说，她就是那个争议的核心。

And, of course, it's it's she is, as I say, the bone of contention.

但当你阅读荷马史诗时必然会问这个问题——荷马显然回溯了帕里斯来到斯巴达带走她的故事。

But the question you're bound to ask when reading Homer who back references, obviously, to that story of of Paris coming to Sparta to to take her.

即便读完整个《伊利亚特》，再读斯米纳乌斯（Quintus Sminaeus）等后世的资料，我们依然不知道：海伦是自愿的吗？

And we still don't know reading the whole of the Iliad and reading the sources after the Sminaeus, Quintus Sminaeus, others, you still don't know, does Helen come willingly?

她是否被阿芙罗狄忒催眠了？这或许是最乏味的答案？

Is she hypnotized by Aphrodite, the dullest answer perhaps?

还是说——正如你感受到的——她最初被这位英俊的特洛伊王子迷惑，但随着他虚荣、肤浅的特质（你知道的），他缺乏勇气、自我认知和荣誉感的本质逐渐暴露，爱意也随之消亡？

And or is it as you sense that she was glamorized by this very handsome Trojan prince, but that slowly his vanity, his surface, you know, qualities, his his lack of bravery or self knowledge or honor caused the love to die.

而这要有趣得多。

And that is much more interesting.

荷马对此只是轻描淡写，以至于你都不敢相信自己竟能解读出这么多深意。

And it's sketched in so lightly by Homer that you can't quite believe you've read that much into it.

但我想这正是荷马的天才之处。

But that's part of Homer's genius, I think.

是啊。

Yeah.

关于海伦的话题，我想说希腊神话中所有人物最迷人的地方在于——当你像在你的书中那样描写他们时，他们既是统一的角色，又是所有神秘色彩与不同作者赋予他们各种特质的综合体。

Well, I was gonna say on the topic of Helen, I mean, part of the fascination of all the the figures of Greek myth is that when you write about them, say, in a a book like yours, they are unitary characters and they are the compound of all the mystery and all the many different things that have been written about them by different people.

所以海伦当然不只是荷马笔下的角色。

So Helen, of course, you know, it's not she's not just the subject of Homer.

许多不同作家都描写过她，并为她赋予了不同的动机。

Many different writers wrote about her, and many different writers attributed different motives to her.

我在想当你描写众神、英雄或是海伦时，是否必须综合参考多种文献来源。

And I wonder when you are writing about the gods or the heroes or or Helen, you were having to draw on multiple sources.

你在写作时如何轻松融合这些不同来源，从而塑造出具有统一性的人物形象？

How easy did you find it to blend those sources so that you had kind of a sense of unity characters when you were writing about them?

这是个非常好的问题。

That's a really good question.

当然，某种程度上不可能不选边站队，如果这个说法恰当的话。

And and, of course, it's impossible not somehow to take sides, if that's the right phrase.

我们这代有古典学背景的人，在学校里多少学过些古典著作，至少达到一定水平，但当然不具备太多学术资格来妄加评论。

Most people of my generation and background who, you know, studied classics a bit at school, you know, up to a level at least and and, you know, certainly not academically qualified to pronounce too much on it.

但我们大多数人会自然而然地站在希腊神话中特洛伊战争中的希腊一方，即阿该亚人，无论你怎么称呼他们，那个去夺回海伦的文明。

But most of us tend naturally to side with the Greeks in the in the Trojan War, the Achaeans, whatever you want to call, the side that's come to collect Helen just because that's the civilization that we regard as the one that's primary.

每当深入到这个故事中时，你都会不由自主地对普里阿摩斯和他的家族产生极度的钦佩与尊重，当然巴黎和他的家人除外。

But whenever you get involved with the story, you can't help feeling extreme admiration and respect for Priam and his family, with the exception of Paris and Diophobus perhaps.

但总的来说，赫克托耳和安德洛玛刻是如此可爱和出色，而奥德修斯则真正是如此扭曲和残忍。

But generally speaking, Hector and Andromache are so lovable and splendid, and Odysseus is genuinely so twisted and cruel.

而阿伽门农是如此自负和荒谬，缺乏自知之明到了如此程度。

And Agamemnon is so pompous and absurd and lacks self knowledge to such a great degree.

于是你开始对希腊人感到愤怒，同时意识到这个故事依然是从他们的视角讲述的。

And you start to get furious with the Greeks, and you realize that, nonetheless, you are telling the story from their point of view.

我认为我深入角色并尝试让他们自我表达的方式——当然是在我的引导下——主要是通过将奥德修斯作为我的意识焦点，尽管我并非完全从他的视角来叙述整个故事。

And I think the way I got inside the characters and tried to have my own well, tried to let them speak for themselves, but under my own guidance, obviously, was by mostly having Odysseus as the point of consciousness for me, even if I don't tell the story entirely from his point of view.

通常是奥德修斯观察阿伽门农，或是目睹某些不光彩事件时流露出些许讥讽的态度。

It is usually Odysseus watching Agamemnon or seeing something dishonorable happen and being a little bit cynical about it.

这种方式能保持某种反讽的距离感，因为我认为奥德修斯对很多事都持有这种疏离态度。

And, you know, that that sort of allows allows one to have the ironic distance because I think Odysseus has an ironic distance from a lot of this.

他本就不愿参与这场战争，而且极少表露真实想法。

And and he never wanted to be there, and and he very rarely reveals what he thinks.

但他让人得以窥见每个角色的光明面与阴暗面。

But but he he allows one to see the dark side and the good side of every character.

这并非完全文学化或令人满意的处理方式，但毕竟你不能在故事里塞满脚注。

I I mean, it's it's not as a wholly literary or satisfactory way of doing it, but, of course, you can't just fill it with footnotes.

我不是历史学家。

I'm not a historian.

我无法断言。

I can't say.

但对某些人而言，海伦是千古第一泼妇。

But for some people, Helen was the shrew of all ages.

对另一些人来说，她是在各地被崇拜的偶像。

For others, she was a cult who was worshiped here, there, and so on.

因为几乎每个角色对后世都具有重大意义。

Because almost every character takes on huge meaning to subsequent generations.

比如狄俄墨得斯就有供奉他的神庙等等，但你不能停下来详述所有这些。

So Diomedes had temples to him and so on, but you can't stop and do all of that.

我认为必须让读者自己去惊讶——他们或许会为特洛伊的陷落感到多么不安。

I think you you have to allow the reader to be surprised by how upset they are perhaps at the fall of Troy.

毕竟我们都曾期待这一刻。

Because they we've all wanted it.

你会想：快点结束吧。

You think, come on.

我们已经走到这一步，必须赢得胜利。

We've got to this we've got to win.

希腊人无论如何都必须获胜。

The Greeks have got somehow to win.

当特洛伊木马最终奏效时，人们会对暴力感到厌恶，对恐怖感到恶心，尤其是对涅俄普托勒摩斯和阿喀琉斯之子表现出的那种极端的残忍与暴力。

And when the Trojan horse finally works, it is one is disgusted, I think, by the violence, by the horror, by Neoptolemus and Achilles' son, his particular horrific cruelty and violence.

作家们从不掩饰这些描写。

And it's never held back by by the writers.

显然，荷马并未出现在《伊利亚特》的故事中。

Obviously, Homer isn't there in the terms of the story of the Iliad.

那早已是过去的事了。

It's finished long ago.

故事以赫克托耳的葬礼告终。

It ends with the funeral of Hector.

但他提到了将会发生的事情，而后维吉尔和昆图斯·梅纳斯的其他来源则对可怕的暴力进行了详尽的描述。

But he refers to what will happen and then other sources like Virgil and and Quintus Menace give good descriptions of terrible violence.

而我们感到负有责任。

And we feel responsible.

我认为这在某种程度上，就像一个聪明敏感的学生读到阿姆利则惨案时，仅仅因为是英国人就会莫名感到共犯感一样。

I think that's part of the in the same way, I suppose, that an intelligent and sensitive student reading about the massacre at Amritsa would feel somehow complicit just by being British.

这很荒谬。

It's nonsense.

我们当时并不在场。

We weren't there.

那不是我们的决定。

It wasn't our decision.

我们不是戴尔将军。

We're not general Dyer.

我们并不，你知道，我们无需为此负责。

We're not, you know, we're not responsible for it.

然而，这确实是我们身份认同上的一个污点。

And yet, it's a stain on something to do with our identity.

我们现在不会深入探讨身份认同政治的恐怖之处。

We won't go too far into the horrors of identitarian politics just now.

但但你能明白我的意思吗？

But but you know what I mean?

历史文学冒险的一部分就在于你无法不产生认同。

That there is a that's part of the literary adventure of history is that you cannot but identify.

而在认同时，当你允许自己站队的那方做出可怕之事，你会感觉自己就是那个作恶者。

And in identifying, when the side that you allow yourself to does something dreadful, you feel that you've done that dreadful thing.

但是史蒂文，这难道不引出一个有趣的问题吗？我是说，这个故事来自一个比我们暴力得多、有着我们几乎无法理解的荣誉崇拜的文化。

But, Steven, doesn't this raise an interesting question, which is that writing about this I mean, this was a story that was told in a culture that a culture that was much more violent than our own, with a cult of honor that we barely understand.

重述这个故事必然是个有趣的挑战——毕竟总有人会争论那些关于神话历史相关性的陈词滥调，我想我们都觉得这种论调相当恼人。

And it must be an interesting challenge to retell that story for basically you know, there's always that argument, which I imagine we all find quite irritating about relevance, about the relevance of myths and history and whatnot.

为那些不崇尚这些价值观、视暴力为可憎的读者重述这个故事确实是个挑战。

But it must be a challenge to write about this story for an audience that don't prize those things, for whom violence is repellent.

是啊。

Yeah.

你说得完全正确。

You're absolutely right.

我认为这是历史学家和任何过去故事复述者面临的实际困难之一。

I think it's one of the real difficulties facing historians and retellers of any tale of the past.

而且我说的还是近代历史——多米尼克你对这方面非常了解，比如你研究过的案例——后代有时很难理解你所谓的背后的行为准则。

And I'm talking about the recent past, which you, Dominic, know very well, for example, have made your study, is that subsequent generations find it very hard sometimes to understand what you might call the codes behind it.

是的。

Yeah.

比如说，我这一辈的教子教女们，如果看一部电影——我也不知道。

So for example and I my generation of godsons and nephews and nieces, Some if I watch a film like I don't know.

可能是《相见恨晚》或者《星辰的重量》这类二战电影，他们会很认真地问我：人们以前真是那样说话的吗？

It could be Brief Encounter or or The Weight of the Stars, some Second World War movie, they genuinely say to me, did people talk like that?

是啊。

Yeah.

确实。

Yeah.

然后我会想，这真的很奇怪吗？

And I'll think, actually, is it that odd?

我想，也许确实如此。

I suppose, maybe it is.

那他们为什么不...为什么他们要隐藏一切？

So why don't they why why do they hide everything?

他们完全不谈论自己的感受。

They don't talk about what they're feeling at all.

然后我就想，天啊，这确实是真的。

And I and I think, gosh, that is true.

我是说，我们某种程度上把这当作一个关于英国人不苟言笑的笑话，但想想看，迈克尔·雷德格雷夫、肯尼斯·摩尔、约翰尼·米尔斯这些人，他们总是顾左右而言他。

I mean, we sort of knew as a kind of joke about that stiff upper lip Englishman, but to think of it, Michael Redgrave and Kenneth Moore, Johnny Mills, whoever, they they they speak off the subject all the time.

而这还是近代的事。

And this is recent.

你知道吗，我认识约翰尼·米尔斯。

You know, I knew Johnny Mills.

他实际上是我非常亲密的朋友，我父母那一代人正是那一代人。

He was actually a very close friend, and my parents' generation were exactly that generation.

而且我不认为他们是另一种人类。

And and I don't think of them as being a different sort of human.

然而行为准则、情感语言、甚至对于什么是失去、什么是荣誉、什么是做一个好人的标准。

And yet the codes of of conduct and of emotional language and of even of what is loss, what is honor, what is what it is to be a good human.

你知道，现在有很多非常清教主义的年轻人回顾近代文化并对其进行评判。

You know, there are a lot of very puritanical young people looking back at recent culture and judging it.

如你所知，我们现在必须在每部电影前加上声明，解释这些作品反映了不同的世界观。

And as you know, we now have to have apologies up in front of every film to explain that they reflect a different way of looking at the world.

所以如果你回溯到几千年前的青铜时代，那时你甚至还没有文字记录的优势来提供洞察。

So if you go back thousands of years to the Bronze Age, where the you're not you haven't even got the advantage of a of of writing to give you an insight.

你拥有的只有那些精妙的细节，比如一个很好的例子——多米尼克，我猜你指的是处理尸体的法典，对我们来说这就像...我们可能知道安提戈涅的故事，整个故事都围绕着不埋葬某人展开。

All you have is the marvelous detail of, for example a good example of what, I guess, you're referring to, Dominic, would be the the the code of of what to do with the dead body, which is to us a kind of well, we might know the story of Antigone, which all revolves around not, you know, not burying someone.

而且我们知道在中东地区，尽早掩埋尸体是很重要的。

So and we know that it's important in The Middle East to cover a body very early.

所以你可以大致理解这个观点。

So you can sort of get the idea that.

但我们倾向于使用人类学家所说的功能谬误。

But we tend to use what I think anthropologists call the functional fallacy.

也就是说，我们会说'哦，是的，你们早早掩埋尸体是因为否则它会腐烂'。

That's to say, we say, oh, yes, you cover a body early because otherwise it corrupts.

肯定存在某种科学上的快速解释，这就是犹太洁食背后的原因。

There must be a good scientific quick reason that that's the reason behind kosher food.

它在高温下会变质。

It spoils in the heat.

一切事物都必须有个合理解释。

Everything has to have a reason.

而在荷马史诗的准则中——关于如何用泥土掩埋尸体、火化尸体、赎罪仪式，以及●●●你知道的，待客之道以及其他类似准则。

Whereas in the Homeric code, the covering of a body with earth or the burning of it or the expiation and the treatment of you know, guest friendship and other codes like that.

虽然你可以尝试为其寻找理性依据并赋予功能性解释，但或许不必过分追求左岸知识分子的思维方式。

While you can try and put a reasoning behind it and and give it a function, it it's probably without going too left bank intellectual.

或许用更接近列维-斯特劳斯的方式来处理会更好。

It is probably better to treat it in a slightly more Levy Strauss kind of way.

这是一种行为表达现象，其价值在于被检视和思考，而非简单断言'因为如此'。

It's a it's a it's a phenomenon of of it's a it's an expression of behavior that that is rewarded by examining it and thinking about it and not just instantly saying, oh, it's because.

'因为'实际上远不如'他们如何实践这套准则'来得有趣。

Because is actually less interesting than how how they live this code.

正如你所说，这种暴力对我们而言难以言说，部分源于痛苦本身。

And the as you say, the violence to us is unspeakable partly because of the pain.

我们只想到这些伤口撕裂时的剧痛，以及伤者发出的惨叫。

We just think of the awful pain of these wounds, separating and the screaming of men as they're they're hurt.

还因为...你看，这里不存在任何共情。

And also because, you know, we don't there's no sympathy.

似乎所有同情心都转移到了宗教仪式、丧葬礼仪、膏油祭品这类形式上。

It it seems that all the sympathy is displaced into religious, you know, obsequence and funeral rites and ointments and unguents and so on.

但这其实是你作为西方人，带着我们的文化和后浪漫主义共情准则在观察。

But that's really you're looking as a westerner with our culture and our post romantic codes of sympathy and and so on.

我们在荷马史诗中寻找那些我们挑选出的微小瞬间。

We're looking for those tiny moments in Homer, which we pick out.

我选择荷马史诗是因为那是最清晰明确的来源。

I choose Homer because those that's the most the clearest source.

那就是所谓的安提洛科斯——涅斯托耳之子沿着沙滩奔跑，告诉阿喀琉斯那引起他望向战场的噪音，正是众人为帕特罗克洛斯之死而战的喧嚣。

So that would be what's called Antilochus, the son of Nesta running along the sand to tell Achilles that the noise that has caused Achilles to look towards the fighting is is the fighting over the death of Patroclus.

然后他必须蹲在阿喀琉斯面前，双手紧握住他的双手。

And then he has to squat in front of Achilles and hold both his hands.

正如荷马所言，这与其说是出于友谊，不如说是为了阻止阿喀琉斯自我伤害。

And as Homer says, not so much in friendship, but more to stop Achilles harming himself.

阿喀琉斯不停地啜泣着。

And Achilles sobs and sobs.

这时你会想，作为一个广义上的温和自由派西方人，带着从济慈、丁尼生、狄更斯那里继承的价值观，以及好莱坞和软文化所灌输的整套观念——比如我们必须善待彼此，当我们相爱时会泪流满面，情感表达有其正当的秩序——我与这个场景产生了某种共鸣点。

And you think there, there's a point of contact for me, a a soft liberal, in the wider sense of the word, Westerner with my values that come from Keats and Tennyson and Dickens and, you know, the whole armory of Hollywood and soft culture and, you know, that we must be lovely to each other and that we when we do love each other, we break down in tears and the the you know, emotions, you know, have a righteous, you know, order of expression.

于是我们看到这一幕终于在荷马史诗中上演，那一刻让人不禁感叹：多么震撼人心的瞬间啊。

And so we see that finally happening in Homer and it's like a you gush with, oh, what a moment that is.

或是那一刻，当安德鲁·麦基和赫克托尔——你知道的，他戴着头盔，头盔的闪光映在他婴儿奥斯特纳克斯的眼中，奥斯特纳克斯睁开眼睛开始哭泣，因为他被父亲头盔上摇曳的羽饰吓到了。

Or the moment when and, you know, and and Andrew Mackey and and Hector are you know, he's got his helmet on and and the flash of the helmet flashes in his baby Osternacks' eyes, and Osternacks opens his eyes and starts to cry because because he's scared by the nodding plume of his father's helmet.

赫克托尔笑着摘下头盔，他们因孩子受惊而发笑。

And Hector laughs and takes the helmet off, and they laugh at the boy for being frightened.

而在这一切之下，安德洛玛刻心想：'赫克托尔，你今天会死的。'

And and underneath it all is Andromache is thinking you're you're going to die today, Hector.

而他说：'我今天不会死。'

And he said, I'm not going to die today.

没事的。

It's alright.

不是今天。

Not today.

而且那个孩子也会死去。

And and the child is going to is going to die as well.

那孩子的死法也同样令人毛骨悚然。

And how that child dies is so horrific as well.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

所以这些微小瞬间才是关键。

So it's like these tiny moments.

这就足够了。

It's it's all you need.

而叙事艺术中非常重要的一点，就是这些瞬间需要多么微小。

And it's a very important part of of storytelling is is how small those moments need to be.

我记得有位朋友给我上过这精彩的一课，他堪称我叙事道路上的拉比——因为他说话总带着拉比式的智慧。

I remember being taught this as a wonderful lesson by a friend of mine who was really my sort of rabbi for storytelling as it were because he he spoke in wonderfully rabbinic way.

有位叫威廉·高德曼的编剧，比尔·高德曼，他写过《虎豹小霸王》和《霹雳钻》的剧本。

There's a man called William Goldman, Bill Goldman, who wrote Butch Cassidy, the screenplay and and the marathon man.

他确实

He did

就是《公主新娘》那部。

that with Princess Bride.

对吗？

Is that right?

《公主新娘》也是。

Princess Bride as well.

就是我们

Which we

我们在这期播客里已经提到过他了。

who we've already name checked on this podcast.

永远不要在亚洲打陆战。

Never fight a land war in Asia.

在亚洲，这可是至理名言，对吧？

In Asia, it's a great one, isn't it?

这是无可辩驳的真理之一。

One of the ineluctable truths.

没错。

Exactly.

但他对我说，比如《虎豹小霸王》，他其实是当作喜剧来写的。

But he he was saying to me how for example, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, he he wrote as a comedy.

他说，只需要一两个微小瞬间提醒观众，这一切背后是死亡。

He said, you just need two one or two tiny moments to remind the audience that what's behind this is death.

然后观众就会沉浸其中。

And then they'll go along with the ride.

他们会爱上这些角色，但背景里始终回荡着丧钟的声音。

They'll love the characters, but behind it all, there'll be a bell tolling.

在《虎豹小霸王》里，保罗·纽曼和罗伯特·雷德福之间有很多喜剧桥段。

And in in Butch Cassidy, it's it's a lot of comedy between Paul Newman and Robert Redford.

但有这样一个时刻：当他们从警长那里获得赦免时，警长只是把赦免令递给他们。

But there's one moment when they get their pardon from the sheriff, and he just hands them the pardon.

然后他直视保罗·纽曼的眼睛说：'虎豹，你终将血溅当场'。

And he looks Paul Newman in the eye and says, you've gotta die bloody butch.

你确实知道这一点。

You do know that.

然后保罗·纽曼那双蓝眼睛上闪过一丝阴霾，随即他又开起了玩笑。

And and then there's a second of cloud goes across those blue eyes of Paul Newman, then he jokes again.

后来凯瑟琳·罗斯在电影里说，当他们表示要去南美时，她说'我会为你们做饭'。

And and then Catherine Ross later on in the film says says them when they say they're gonna go to South America, she says, I'll cook for you.

我会侍奉你们。

I'll serve you.

我愿为你们做任何事。

I'll I'll I'll do anything for you.

但有一件事我绝不会做——我绝不会看着你们死去。

But one thing I won't do, I won't watch you die.

而贝尔顿， 整部电影中只有这两处稍显阴郁的瞬间，但它们却始终萦绕不去。

And and and Belton, those are the only two moments in the film which are, in any way, a kind of downbeat moment, and yet they hang over it.

所以尽管角色们插科打诨玩得多开心——他们到底是什么人？

So for all the the banter and the fun that the characters have who are those guys?

你知道，所有这些美妙的喜剧中，都带着一丝隐隐的悲凉。

You know, all this sort of wonderful comedy, There is that little clangent sense.

同样地，在荷马描绘的所有恐怖、战争征服以及家族王朝间的世系谩骂中，那些人性互动的小小闪光点，让整个故事如此真实，令人反复回味。

And and similarly, in all the horror and martial conquest and genealogical genealogical name calling of families and dynasties and so on that Homer gives you, There are these little pinpricks of human interaction that just make the whole thing so real that you come back to it again and again.

我记得看过杰出的古典学家罗宾·莱恩·福克斯的演讲。

I remember watching Robin Lane Fox, the very distinguished classist Yeah.

他背诵了《伊利亚特》中令人心碎的结尾部分——当赫克托尔的父亲普里阿摩斯来到希腊营地，乞求归还被阿喀琉斯亵渎遗体、拒绝火化的儿子尸体时。

Reciting the the the heart rending, end of the Iliad when Priam, the father of Hector, comes to the Greek camp to beg for the return of the body of his son who Achilles is desecrating the body, refusing to allow it to to to be burned.

普里阿摩斯跪在阿喀琉斯面前，亲吻了杀害他儿子的凶手的手，并哭泣。

And Priam kneels before Achilles and kisses the hands of the man who slew his son and weep.

当罗宾·内森·福克斯讲述这一幕时，他自己也开始哭泣。

And as Robin Nathan Fox was reciting this, he began to weep.

那是一个极其震撼的时刻，仿佛人们跨越千年在这共同的创伤体验中产生了共鸣。

And it was an incredibly powerful moment, the kind of sense of people being joined across the millennia in this shared experience of of the trauma of it.

但我在想，罗宾·莱恩·福克斯是沉浸于古典文化中成长的那一代人，完全是在这类熏陶中长大的。

But I was thinking that mean, Robin Lane Fox was from a generation who marinated in the classics, absolutely kind of raised in this kind of stuff.

你刚才提到，有那么几代人完全习惯于研究希腊和罗马。

And you were talking about that, that there's a kind of generations that were absolutely habituated to the study of of of Greece and of Rome.

正如他所说，如今我们生活的时代已大不相同了。

And now, as he was saying, we we live in an age where that is much less the case.

但你书籍的成功表明，这些内容仍然具有穿透力，或许对孩子们尤其如此。

And yet, the success of your books suggest that still this stuff has a cut through, but perhaps particularly to children.

我是说，这很古老了，不是吗？

And it's I mean, it's old, isn't it?

这竟然如此暴力。

That this should be so violent.

这是关于死亡的。

It's about death.

这是关于屠杀的。

It's about slaughter.

这是关于强奸的。

It's about rape.

它讲述的都是最可怕的事情。

It's about all the most horrendous things.

然而，它总能打动孩子们的心。

And yet, it always cuts through to children.

而这就是孩子们接触古代文明最常见的方式。

And this is how children get introduced to antiquity more times than than than not.

至少，我就是这样接触的。

Certainly, how I was.

这难道不是一个悖论吗？

And and isn't that a paradox?

确实如此。

It it is.

这个问题我思考了很多，因为我收到的大部分关于这些书籍的交流和请求，要么来自孩子们，要么来自他们的父母。

It's the I and I I wonder about it a lot because I I you know, most of the communications I get and and requests for, you know, letters and thoughts about these books is from either children or their parents.

所以我一直在思考其中的原因。

And and I so I have considered why it is.

我在想这是否与故事介于现实与象征之间的定位有关。

And I wonder if it isn't something to do with where the stories are poised between reality and symbolism.

我是说，我相信你们两位都明白这一点，但要解释为什么我认为这些故事与奇幻作品如此不同却相当困难。

I mean, I I'm sure you get this, both of you, and yet it's quite hard to explain why I think these stories are so different from fantasy.

因为人们会说，哦，是的。

Because people will say, oh, yes.

因为我喜欢《权力的游戏》或托尔金的作品之类的。

Because I love the Game of Thrones or I love Tolkien or something.

然后我会说，是的。

And I'll go, yes.

嗯，那些也很不错。

Well, that's very nice too.

然后他们会说，但那很相似，不是吗？

And they'll say, but that's similar, isn't it?

那里有龙、怪物和拥有超能力的人。

It's got dragons and monsters and and people with superpowers.

然后我说，是的。

And I go, yes.

然而，尽管这是事实，我并不认为希腊神话是那样的，尽管它确实可以算是。

And yet, while that's true, I don't think of Greek mythology as being like that even though it it reasonably is.

而且没人喜欢看到人们对奇幻作品摆出高高在上的态度。

And nobody likes people to be snobbish about fantasy franchises.

要知道，在研究古典文学或历史时，轻视年轻人对叙事作品的热情是毫无帮助的。

And, you know, it doesn't help with the study of classics or the study of history to be dismissive of passions that young people have in terms of storytelling.

如果他们热爱托尔金、JK·罗琳、《权力的游戏》和漫威电影宇宙，那完全没问题。

So if they love their Tolkien and their JK Rowling and their Game of Thrones and their Marvel Cinematic Universe, then, you know, that's that's fine.

但我认为关于神明的部分——某种程度上孩子们能感知到这些故事属于一个特殊空间，在那里人类和这些虚构的女孩（他们并不真正相信其存在）站在一起。

But I think the the the gods thing is is somehow children are aware of this of this sense of it belonging in a special space where humans and these fictional girls, they don't really believe in, but they they know they're on their side.

孩子们知道她们的存在。

The the children know about them.

他们早已收集了关于她们的细节。

They've collected their details.

他们觉得自己可以属于那个世界。

They feel they can belong in that world.

我认为他们喜欢学术界所称的双重决定论，这听起来是个非常奇怪的概念，但在晚期希腊神话中特别有趣的一点是，比如当帕里斯瞄准阿喀琉斯射箭时。

And I think they love what academics call double determination, which sounds a very strange idea, but is one of the things that's particularly interesting in late Greek myth is when, say, Paris is aiming his arrow at Achilles.

你可以讲述他侥幸射中一箭，正好命中阿喀琉斯脚跟的故事。

You can tell the story that he gets off a lucky shot and it lands in the heel of Achilles.

或者你也可以说阿波罗现身帮他持弓引箭，因为这是弓箭之神阿波罗可能会做的事，而他站在特洛伊人这边。

Or you can say that Apollo appeared and held the arrow for him, held the bow, and guided the shot because that's what Apollo, god of archery, might do, and he's on the side of the Trojans.

事实上确有文字记载，在某种程度上他将是阿喀琉斯之死的促成者。

And it is actually written that he would be, in some respects, the author of Achilles' death.

对此早有预言。

There's an earlier prophecy about that.

就像荷马所做的那样，你可以说既有阿波罗也有帕里斯。

Well, you say you could say, as as Homer does, that there is Apollo and there is Paris.

或者你也可以像作家们常说的那样：'哦，昨晚缪斯女神没有眷顾我。'

Or you can be more like an author is saying, oh, the muse wasn't with me with me last night.

作者并不真的认为有缪斯在他们耳边低语。

The author doesn't really think there's a muse whispering in their ear.

但如果缪斯与他们同在，他们就会说，哦，缪斯确实在我耳边。

But if the muse is with them, they'll go, oh, the muse was absolutely in my ear.

然后我写啊写，感觉棒极了。

And I wrote and I wrote, and it was amazing.

哇哦。

And wow.

然后她就离开了，你知道的。

And then she went, you know.

板球运动员也会这样说板球之母，或者说状态就像附体的神灵。

And it it's you know, cricketers will say the same about mother cricket or, you know, or form, you know, is a kind of god that settles on you.

而希腊战争后数千年的每位希腊弓箭手都会说：来吧阿波罗，指引我的箭。

And every Greek archer in thousands of years after the Greek war would have said, come on Apollo, guide my arrow.

这就像巴西尔福特说感谢上帝一样。

Because that's just like Basilforte saying, thank you, God.

你知道，这只是我们的一种行为方式。

You know, it's just a thing we do.

所以你可以通读《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》的全部内容，然后认定众神纯粹是象征性的，当雅典娜告诉阿喀琉斯要冷静、不要公开发脾气时让他别在众人面前发怒，只需离开帐篷时，那实际上是他本性中更善良的一面在起作用吗？

So you can read the whole of the Iliad and the whole of the Odyssey and decide that the gods are symbolic purely and that it it doesn't really when Athena tells Achilles to calm down and not lose his temper publicly or he you know, and just to to leave the tent, is that he's simply the better angels of his nature?

这是他内心中的智慧在说，'来吧，阿喀琉斯'吗？

Is it the wisdom in him saying, come on, Achilles.

别发脾气。

Don't lose your temper.

明白吗？

You know?

我们心中的雅典娜就是那个智慧而克制的角色。

The Athena in us is that character that is wise and temperate.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you see what I mean?

所以这里存在着双重决定因素。

So there there is this it's double determination.

你可以说这是神的存在，将其视为战场上真实存在的神明幻想世界，或者认为它们象征着所代表的那些元素。

You can say it's the god and have it as a fantasy world of gods actually in the battle, or you can have it as these they stand for these elements that they represent.

我在想，这有点像恐龙与龙的区别，两者都庞大凶猛，但恐龙确实存在过。

I I wonder if it's kind of the difference between dinosaurs and dragons, but both are kind of big and fierce, but dinosaurs actually existed.

而在古人的想象中，诸神是真实存在的。

And in in the imagination of of the ancients, the gods existed.

是的。

Yes.

某种程度上，这让他们显得真实，因为我目前正在创作特洛伊的续篇。

And and that kind of, in a way, makes them because I I'm at at the moment, I'm kind of doing a sequel to Troy.

我正在撰写一部古希腊历史，其中神明仍扮演着重要角色，因为他们确实曾发挥作用。

So I'm writing a history of of ancient Greece in which the gods do continue to play because they did they did have roles.

明白吗？

You know?

嗯。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Indeed.

菲迪皮德斯从雅典出发去召唤斯巴达人前来马拉松与他们汇合，然后他又跑回去。

Pheidippides running from from Athens to summon the Spartans to come and and join them at at at a marathon, and he he he's running back.

斯巴达人表示他们会迟到。

And the Spartans have said that they're going to come late.

他遇见了伟大的潘神。

And he meets with Pan, the great god Pan.

这是希罗多德记载的。

This is what Herodotus says.

潘神说：我会在马拉松出现。

And Pan says, I will be there at Marathon.

果然在马拉松战役中，波斯人经历了恐慌。

And then at Marathon, sure enough, the the Persians experience panic.

潘神就在那里。

Pan is there.

是的。

Yes.

潘神

Pan

某种程度上是在书写历史并将诸神重新引入。

is kind of writing it and and putting the gods back in.

这有点像对历史进行'再野化'，因为突然间，许多事情都变得合理了。

It's kind of like rewilding history, because suddenly, all kinds of things make sense.

所以我一直在思考这个问题，我认为其吸引力部分在于进入一个这些神祇可能存在的世界。

So I I I've been kind of thinking about this that I I think part of the appeal of it almost is entering a world in which these gods are possible.

他们那种魅力、神秘感，以及他们可能表现出的可怕行为方式——或许这对孩子们有吸引力。

And there's something about their glamour, their mystique, the the kind of way in which then that they they behave terribly maybe it's appealing to children.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是的。

Yes.