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本期节目由我最爱的伦敦书评赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by my favorite London review of books.
我是威廉，来自《帝国》杂志，短暂跨越了帝国网络的边界。
William here from Empire briefly crossing the goal hanger network borders.
在我们试图厘清历史复杂性的过程中，很明显，历史并不是一条直线。
In our journey to unpick the complexities of the past, it's clear that history is not a straight line.
它是一幅庞大、精细而复杂的织锦。
It's a vast, intricate, and complex tapestry.
要真正理解一场政治革命或一个王朝的覆灭，你得一块一块地拼出完整的图景。
To truly understand the political revolution or the fall of a dynasty, you have to build up the picture piece by piece.
你需要日记、诗歌，捕捉当时的情感规模，外交官的秘密通信，以及那个时代伟大思想家的敏锐洞察。
You need diary entries and poetry that capture the scale of emotions, the secret correspondence of a diplomat, and the sharp discerning insights of the era's great thinkers.
而正是这种深入探究的精神，正是《伦敦书评》所倡导的。
And it's this art of the deep dive that the London Review of Books champions.
他们汇聚了全球顶尖的思想者，通过长篇论文深入探讨丰富多样的议题。
They bring together the world's leading thinkers and interrogate a rich range of topics through long form essays.
现在注册，即可免费试用三个月的《伦敦书评》。
Try three months of the LRB completely free when you sign up today.
前往 lrb.me/trial 订阅吧。
Subscribe at lrb.me/trial.
就是 lrb.me/trial，免费试用三个月的《伦敦书评》。
That is lrb.me/trial to try three months of The London Review of Books for free.
赶紧去办吧。
Just do it.
这是全国最棒的期刊，你绝对不会后悔。
It's the most wonderful journal in the country, and you will never regret it.
亚当啊，我造你时，并未将你定为天上的生灵，也非地上的凡物，不是凡俗的，也不是永生的，为的是让你凭自己的自由与尊严，塑造属于自己的形态。
We have made you, o Adam, a creature neither of heaven nor earth, neither mortal nor immortal, in order that you may, as the free and proud shaper of your own being, fashion yourself in the form you may prefer.
你可以选择堕入低等的兽性，也可以凭借自己的抉择，升华至神圣的更高境界。
It will be in your power to descend to the lower brutish forms of life, or you will be able, through your own decision, to rise again to the superior orders whose life is divine.
这是上帝在1486年，由文艺复兴时期人文主义者皮科·德拉·米兰多拉所写的《论人的尊严》中，对人类说的话。
That is god talking to man in the oration of the dignity of man written in 1486 by the Renaissance humanist Giovanni Pico della Mirandola.
漫画作家格兰特·莫里森在他的著作《超级英雄》中，也是这样收尾的——这本书梳理了超级英雄的历史，他认为这些角色体现了人类对宇宙与神圣的永恒渴望。
And it is also the way that the comic book writer Grant Morrison ends his book supergods, a history of superheroes in which he says they represent our enduring thirst for the cosmic and the sacral.
就在新《蜘蛛侠》电影上映的这一周，还有谁比我们自己的汤姆·霍兰德更适合来谈这个话题呢？
Now who better who better to discuss this subject in the very week the new Spider Man film comes out than our very own Tom Holland.
在我看来，汤姆·霍兰德绝对是顶尖的两位之一。
Still for my money, one of the top two Tom Hollands.
多米尼克，你太客气了。
Dominic, that is so kind of you.
我这话说得可真够客气的。
That's so kind of me.
所以，汤姆，你可是费了点劲才答应聊这个话题的，说真的。
So, Tom, you took a tiny bit of I mean, come on.
我们刚才提到了‘神圣’，但你其实挺不情愿的，因为你的存在本身，对你就像是个持续的烦恼，对吧？
We've mentioned the sacral, but you took a tiny bit of persuasion to do this subject because the existence of Tom Holland is a running sore, isn't it, for you?
我倒不至于讨厌他的存在。
Well, I don't begrudge his existence.
但我觉得，人们觉得好笑，而且这么多年来一直在拿这个开玩笑，主要是因为我真的对超级英雄一无所知。
But I I think that, I suppose what makes it funny for people, and people have been making jokes about it, for at least seems like an eternity, is I don't really know anything about superheroes.
我的意思是，我多少知道一点，因为你让我读过格兰特·莫里森的那本书。
I mean, I I I know a bit because you've told me to read Grant Morrison's book.
读完之后我才意识到，其实我偶尔也碰到过超级英雄。
And I realized reading it that occasionally I have stumbled across superheroes.
但不知为什么，他们从来就没成为我童年的一部分。
But for some reason, they've never they were never part of my childhood particularly.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，这么说来，开始一档播客却说自己对这个主题一无所知，确实不是个理想的方式。
And so, I mean, it's not an ideal way perhaps to start a podcast to say I don't really know anything about the subject.
但你其实懂的。
But you do.
我觉得你是懂的。
I think you do.
我觉得你知道的比你自己想的要多。
I think you know more than you think.
嗯，我同意。
Well, I I agree.
因为读了格兰特·莫里森的书，我才意识到，其实我早就接触过不少超级英雄了。
I because reading Grant Morrison's book, realize, actually, I have come across them quite a lot.
但说实话，我从来没读过一本超级英雄漫画。
But for instance, I I've never read, a superhero comic.
好吧。
Alright.
那你可有得学了。
Well, prepare to be educated.
准备好被启蒙吧。
Prepare to be educated.
不过在那之前，汤姆，这周有个大好消息，我们还没提过——就是大家对这个项目启动的反应特别热烈，我觉得它简直就是历史界的复仇者联盟，或者正义联盟。
But before you do that before you do that, Tom, the great news of the week, which we haven't talked about yet, the big news is the amazing response to the launch of what I could see as the avengers of the of the history world or the Justice League.
是的。
Yeah.
X战警是变种人，所以我不太清楚这个类比到底想说明什么。
Well, the x men are mutants, so I don't know what that's the comparison I go for.
背叛玛格丽特，先生。
Betray Margaret, sir.
也就是《历史其余部分》俱乐部的上线，那个《历史其余部分》俱乐部的发布。
Which is the Rest Is History Club, the launch of the Rest Is History Club.
非常感谢所有注册的朋友们。
So thank you so much to everybody who have who signed up.
很高兴你们加入我们。
We're delighted to have you on board.
对于还没注册的朋友们
To those of you who haven't signed up
为什么？
Why?
为什么不呢？
Why not?
确实有这一点。
Well, there is that.
不过，你还是会照常收到我们的播客。
But, of course, you'll still get your podcast as normal.
当然。
Of course.
当然。
Of course.
每个月只要六英镑，但我保证再也不提这个了。
So and it is just £6 a month, but I promise not to mention that again.
不过，汤姆，我真正享受的是参与Discord社区的互动。
But, Tom, we've I the thing that's I've really, enjoyed is is dipping into the Discord community.
对。
Yes.
这听起来真像超级英雄。
Which sounds very superhero.
是的。
Yeah.
挺不错的。
Very nice.
超级英雄。
Superhero.
对。
Yeah.
就像《神盾局特工》那样。
It's like Agents of Shield.
这还挺让人意外的，我本来以为你不会这么喜欢参与社群互动，
And it's rather startling because I I would not have put you down as someone who, was necessarily into dipping into,
事情
things
叫作 Discord。
called the Discord.
但结果这反而是你的超能力。
But it turns out to be your superpower.
是的。
Yeah.
你在这方面特别在行。
You're really good at it.
你肯定是被什么放射性蚂蚁咬过吧。
You've obviously been bitten by a radioactive ant or something.
我确实被咬过。
I have.
我也被咬过。
I have.
在科茨沃尔德地区。
In the Cotswolds.
所以在 Discord 社区的‘Rest History’频道里，有一整个帖子，都是来自米德兰兹地区的‘Rest is History’俱乐部成员，属于默西亚社群。
So in the in the Rest History in the Discord community, you know, they have a whole thread of people in the rest is history club who are from the Midlands, a Mercyan community.
还有东盎格利亚的，我注意到了。
And and from East Anglia, I see.
东盎格利亚那边，
There's an East
有个特别不客气的笑话是拿我开涮的。
Anglia a very a very rude joke about my
之前有个人发帖说，
Well, there was one guy who went on.
‘这儿有没有来自东盎格利亚的人？’
He said, is there anyone here from East Anglia?
我说，如果你听过我们的 CIA 播客，就知道利安·尼森马上就要来了。
I said, well, if you've listened to our CIA podcast, you'll know that Liam Neeson will be along in a minute.
对。
Yes.
太有趣了。
Very funny.
所以我觉得挺凑巧的，我模仿不了利亚姆·尼森的口音，而且我还跟演蜘蛛侠的演员同名。
So so it's piling to me, my inability to do a Liam Neeson accent, and the fact that I share the name with the actor who plays Spider Man.
是的。
Yeah.
我们得提一下，接下来会有额外的剧集上线。
We should mention, we've got bonus episodes coming up
对啊。
Oh, yes.
不好意思。
Sorry.
是给会员的。
For our members.
每周都会更新额外剧集。
So the bonus episodes will be out every week.
这周呢，是12月15号星期三早上八点。
And this week, so Wednesday, December 15 at 8AM.
英国时间。
O'clock British time.
这周我们会第一次为Restishistory俱乐部会员做直播，主题是整个六十年代。
We're doing our first live streamed show for restishistory club members, which is all about the nineteen sixties.
很期待呢。
Looking forward
你呢？
to that?
当然了。
Great.
我非常期待。
I certainly am.
这个话题太棒了。
It's a great topic.
这个话题我们俩都特别感兴趣。
It's a topic we're both very much interested in.
你懂的比我还多，不过我也有自己的看法。
You know a lot more about than I do, but I I have views.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你有看法。
I know you have views.
我相信你很期待听听这些观点。
Which I know you'll you'll look forward to hearing about.
如果你没赶上直播，但你是Rest History Club的会员，之后还是可以回看的。
So if you if you can't make it and you're a Rest History Club member, you will get a chance to, access it afterwards.
别担心。
Don't worry.
如果你不是Rest History Club的会员，那就没法看了，不过呢，你
If you're not a Rest Is History Club member, well, you won't, but, I mean, you
不过在这周三之前，你都可以注册来听。
But you could sign up between now and Wednesday until you get to hear it.
汤姆，你去哪儿注册呢？
Where would you sign up, Tom?
去 restishistorypod.com 就行。
You'd go to restishistorypod.com.
很好。
Very good.
行了。
Alright.
别再宣传这个俱乐部了。
Enough enough of the club promotion.
咱们聊聊超级英雄吧。
Let's talk about superheroes.
你有什么问题吗？
Do you have a question?
我觉得你有个问题想问。
I think you have a question that you'd like to ask.
是的。
I do.
是来自S03 Klauswitz的，他发在了Discord上。
It's from s o three Klauswitz, who, put it on the Discord.
他确实发了。
He did.
他问的是，二十世纪中期超级英雄故事为什么会突然兴起？
And he asked, what caused the sudden rise of superhero stories in the mid twentieth century?
这真是个特别棒的问题，特别适合开场。
And that's an absolutely banging question with which to kick the show off.
我的回答是，原因其实有点平淡，就是1933年漫画书开始出现。
So my answer to that would be it's kind of there's a kind of sort of almost like a boring logistical reason, which is that in 1933, have the launch of comic books.
有个人叫马克斯·盖恩斯，我一时想不起他那个出版物叫什么了。
So a man called Max Gaines, he I can't remember what it's called.
有点奇怪的是，
Something funnies.
那是第一本真正意义上的漫画书。
It's the first sort of comic book.
这是一种利用印刷机的新方式。
It's a way of using the printing presses.
成本很低。
It's cheap.
一开始，他们只是 reprint 一些报纸上的连环漫画，
Initially, they're reproducing It's it's apparently strips from
四色印刷技术。
A a four color printing process.
对，
Yeah.
所以整个过程非常简单。
So it's very simple.
这才让那种鲜艳的色彩成为可能，没错。
Enables that kind of bright Exactly.
那种刺眼的色彩，我们
The lurid colors that we
那种刺眼的色彩。
The lurid colors.
所以归根结底，我们一直在说，这其实是技术革新带来的结果。
So so it's I I mean, we we keep coming to this, that it's kind of technological innovations
而这些革新又推动了文化变革，没错。
that then precipitate cultural Exactly.
变革的过程。
Processes of change.
但显然，超级英雄背后有更深厚的文化根源，对吧？
But, obviously, there are cultural roots the superhero, aren't there longer roots?
所以
So
嗯，确实有很多人问过这个问题。
Well, yeah, there's there's we've had a lot of questions about that.
所以，Pedida Thor 在推特上问，罗马人是不是也用同样的方式看待神话英雄？
So Pedida Thor on Twitter, did the Romans think of mythical heroes the same way?
是的。
Yeah.
Diogo Mogadro 问，超级英雄算是现代神话吗？
Diogo Mogadro, are superheroes of modern mythology?
Henry Midgley 问，现代超级英雄的概念和希腊英雄之间有没有血缘关系？
Henry Midgley, do you think there's any genealogical link between the modern concept of superheroes and the Greek hero?
我们是不是把赫拉克勒斯现代化了，变成了蜘蛛侠？
Have we modernized Hercules and made him Spider Man?
Hasim 说，现代超级英雄那种道德感和不愿取人性命的态度，是不是基督教道德的体现，和北欧传说中的贪婪形成对比？
Hasim, I mean, is modern superheroes morality and reluctance to take human life a symbol of Christian morality in contrast to the Norse sagas or greed?
好吧。
Alright.
所以格兰特·莫里斯在他的书里提到，
So Grant Morris putting it in his book, basically,
这一切都发生在这样的背景下，
because All all in the context of
他的神话体系。
his mythology.
《超级神祇》。
Super gods.
他认为，就像皮科·德拉·米兰多拉说的那样，人处在凡俗与神圣之间，努力超越自身，有一种人文主义的追求，诸如此类的观点。
He sees them as he he has that thing about the the quote from Giovanni Pico della Marindola about sort of man caught between the kind of base and the divine and this sort of this sort of humanistic kind of reaching for something beyond and all this kind of stuff.
不过我知道，你其实并不认同这些说法，对吧？
Now you I know that you don't really buy all that, do you?
说来也怪，这次我居然也不认同。
Amazingly, for once Amazingly, I don't.
把他们看作
See them
你不觉得他们是基督教的。
you don't see them as Christian.
我不觉得这跟基督教有任何关系。
I I don't I I I don't really think it's anything to do with Christianity.
根本就不是。
Don't it's anything to do
跟希腊神话、北欧神话，或者类似的东西都没关系。
with Greek myth or Norse myth or anything anything like that.
好吧。
But okay.
我来提个反例，汤姆，你得解释清楚——你有雷神。
Let me the counter argument there, Tom, which you need to dispel is you've got Thor.
你还有很多希腊和罗马的影响。
You've got a lot of sort of Greek and Roman influences.
当神奇队长在上世纪四十年代被创造出来时，他是最早的超级英雄之一。
So Captain Marvel when Captain Marvel is created, he's one of the the first sort of superheroes in the nineteen forties or whatever.
他的力量来源于所罗门、赫拉克勒斯、阿特拉斯、宙斯、阿喀琉斯和墨丘利，合起来就是‘沙赞’。
And there's a sort of he gets his powers from Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury, which is the Shazam.
沙赞。
Shazam.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Right.
这个联系难道不明显吗？还是你觉得这只是表面功夫，完全是硬凑的？
Mean, is that link not obvious there, or do you think that's just complete window dressing and it's utterly contrived?
年纪大一点的听众可能还记得，七十年代有一部叫《本先生》的电视剧。
Older listeners may remember that in the seventies, there was, a a TV show called mister Ben.
《本先生》的剧情是，主角戴一顶圆顶硬礼帽。
The plot of Mister Ben was that, mister Ben wore a bowler hat.
他走在街上。
He'd walk along the street.
他走进一家化装品店，店员会神奇地出现，借给他一套华丽的服装。
He'd go into, a fancy dress shop, and the shopkeeper would magically appear and lend him a fancy dress outfit.
可能是罗马士兵、穴居人、牛仔，或者随便什么造型。
And it might be a Roman soldier or a caveman or a cowboy or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
然后本先生会走进试衣间，穿上那套衣服，接着进入一个魔法世界——比如他穿上穴居人装，周围就会出现恐龙。
And mister Ben would go into the changing room and he'd put this outfit on, and then he'd enter a kind of magical world where, you know, if he put on the caveman show, there'd be dinosaurs.
要是他穿上罗马盔甲，就会置身于古罗马，诸如此类。
If he put the Romans on, he'd be, you know, ancient Rome or whatever.
就这样一直继续下去。
So it would go on.
我的意思是，超级英雄的故事本质上就停留在这个层面。
I I mean, I think that, basically, that's the level that superheroes operate on.
在我看来，这些角色本质上都是义警。
These are essentially, it seems to me, vigilante figures.
是的
Yep.
它们的产生源于美国历史中一些特定的社会背景
They're bred off the very specific circumstances of kind of American history
这些都会逐渐显现
Which will come
涉及社会历史、对执法的态度，以及个人拿起武器捍卫美国生活方式的观念
to social history, attitudes towards policing, attitudes towards, the individual picking up arms to defend the American way of life.
对
Mhmm.
本质上，这些人就是在扮演角色
And, basically, these are people who are cosplaying.
他们塑造的角色，比如你可能会看到雷神
They are characters that may well you know, you may well get Thor.
也可能会看到神奇女侠，灵感来自亚马逊女战士之类的
You may well get Wonder Woman, drawing on the Amazons or whatever.
不过，你知道，我们还没到托尔金那种奇幻作品的层次。
But it you know, we're we're not in the level, say, of Tolkien with his fantasy
对。
Yeah.
他明显是借鉴了对古代文学、古代神话、基督教神话等的深厚知识，来丰富他的世界。
Clearly drawing on on a deep knowledge of ancient literature, ancient myth, Christian myth, whatever, to amplify his his world.
而这些角色似乎对这一点完全不感兴趣。
This none of these characters seem really to have any interest in that.
我的意思是，这其实就是关于打架。
I mean, it's it's about fights.
还有关于服装。
It's about costumes.
对。
Yeah.
基本上也就这样了。
And and that's basically the the limit of it.
不管是最简单的那种搞笑风格、亚当·韦斯特式的蝙蝠侠动画，还是像《守望者》那样阴暗沉重的类型，本质上都一样。
And and that's true whether it's, you know, the most basic kind of wham bam kind of Adam West type Batman cartoon shows where it's played for laughs in its camp, or the kind of the the Watchmen, the dark, the somber, the kind of Yeah.
就像《芬尼根的守灵夜》那样的漫画版本。
Finnegan's Wake version of comic book.
但它们依然对这些神话渊源没什么真正兴趣。
They're still not really interested in any of these kind of mythic antecedents.
我觉得这是因为
I think there's a
他们更关注的是美国。
lot They're interested in in in America.
是的。
Yeah.
二十世纪的美国。
Twentieth century America.
等等。
But hold on.
好的。
Okay.
他们对二十世纪感兴趣，尤其是二十世纪三十年代的美国，待会儿我们会说到这一点。
They're interested in twentieth century they're born in twentieth century America, particularly in the nineteen thirties, we'll come to that in a second.
比如，我们‘历史其余部分’俱乐部的成员伊恩·B在Discord聊天里提了一个问题。
But for example, Ian B, who's one of our Athelstan members of the of the Rest Is History Club, he asked a question on the Discord chat.
他说，有一个很有说服力的观点认为，福尔摩斯是第一个超级英雄。
And he says, there's a compelling argument that Sherlock Holmes is the original superhero.
你同意吗？
Do you agree?
他还问到了其他一些历史人物，比如阿喀琉斯、亚历山大、亚瑟王和罗宾汉，他们是不是也奠定了基础。
Or he asks about other figures from history who lay the groundwork, Achilles, Alexander, King Arthur, Robin Hood.
我觉得，罗宾汉这个民间英雄、法外之徒的形象，确实有一点点渊源，但非常微弱。
I would say, there is some slight lineage, some very faint lineage from Robin Hood, the folk hero, the outlaw mask.
他戴面具、有藏身之处，还有助手。
Who wears a mask and has a hideout and has sidekicks.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得夏洛克·福尔摩斯呢，汤姆？
I think Sherlock Holmes, Tom?
我们上次读福尔摩斯那本书的时候，就讨论过他像个超级英雄。
We talked about Sherlock Holmes as a superhero in our last in our Sherlock Holmes book.
这个我们当然知道，我读过格兰特·莫里森的书，书里提到，蝙蝠侠的创造者们说，蝙蝠侠的体能像达达尼昂——就是那个让人容易搞混的《三个火枪手》里的第四个火枪手。
Well, we know that, and I know that from having read Grant Morrison's book, that, the guys who, invent Batman say that he has the athleticism of D'Artagnon, say one of the the you know, confusingly, he's the fourth musketeer in the the three musketeers
没错。
Yes.
而他的智力则来自夏洛克·福尔摩斯。
And the brainpower of Sherlock Holmes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这显然是有意为之，完全就是那种风格
So that's a conscious, absolutely kind
他们在创作这些作品时，确实处处都能感受到福尔摩斯的影子。
of Sherlock Holmes is definitely in the air when they're writing these things and things.
我还想说，我们在福尔摩斯那一期聊过，伦敦本身在福尔摩斯故事里就像一个角色。
And what I'd also say what I'd also say is that, I mean, we talked about this on the Sherlock Holmes episode that that London is one you know, is a character in Sherlock Holmes.
某种程度上，人们对伦敦的印象至今还受着那个形象的影响。
In a sense, people's understanding of London is still shaped by that.
我觉得，蝙蝠侠的哥谭市也扮演着类似的角色。
And I would say that, Batman's Gotham City has an analogous role.
人们常说
People call
纽约不就常被叫做哥谭吗？
New York Gotham, don't they?
他们几乎把这两个名字当成一回事来用。
I mean, they use the they use the the words almost interchangeably.
但整个过程中，蝙蝠侠的塑造方式，就像伦敦在《福尔摩斯》故事里一样，纽约的高谭市本身就是一个角色。
But right the way through, you know, all the way that that Batman's being portrayed, New York Gotham is a character in the way that London is a character in the Shiloh game story.
确实如此。
That's that's very true.
我觉得完全正确。
I think that's absolutely right.
不过我觉得还有两个角色，其实也特别值得提一下，它们在上世纪三十年代超级英雄创作者们构思作品时就已存在。
But I think there are two other characters, actually, that are worth mentioning, that that are definitely there when the superhero creators are working in the late nineteen thirties.
其中一个，对一些听众来说可能挺意外的，就是猩红救星。
One of them, very unexpected, actually, to some listeners, is the Scarlet Pimpernel.
实际上，很多漫画历史学家都认为猩红救星影响巨大。
And and, actually, lots of comic book historians say the Scarlet Pimpernel is massive.
对。
Yeah.
跟我们说说
Tell us about
红粉侠最初是由奥克塔夫·米尔博男爵在1903年创作的一部戏剧，后来在1905年改编成了小说。
Scarlet Pimpernel is created initially in a play by Baroness Auxi in nineteen o three and then the book in nineteen o five.
故事背景设定在法国大革命时期，主角戴着面具，专门营救那些面临危险的人。
So the Scarlet Pimpernel set in the French Revolution, he rescues he's he's he's masked.
他非常具有冒险精神，行事潇洒。
He's incredibly swashbuckling.
他就像一位火枪手一样。
He's like a musketeer.
他从断头台下救出了法国贵族。
He rescues French aristocrats from the guillotine.
但有趣的是，正是这一点让他明显成为后来那些角色的先驱，比如克拉克·肯特和彼得·帕克等等，因为他拥有双重身份。
But the interesting thing there and what makes him clearly an antecedent of later characters, Clark Kent and Peter Parker and so on, is that he has a he has a dual identity.
一个是超级英雄“红粉刺客”，另一个则是那个衣着浮夸、举止阴柔的，对。
So one is the Scarlet Pimpernel, the superhero, and the other is this foppish, effeminate Yeah.
名叫珀西·布莱克尼爵士的纨绔子弟。
Weed called sir Percy Blakney.
他故意装出这副样子，就像布鲁斯·韦恩或克拉克·肯特那样。
And he plays up to that part just like Bruce Wayne does or just like Clark Kent does.
他装成一个纨绔子弟，来掩盖自己真实的身份。
He plays the weed to disguise the French about his real identity.
我觉得大多数漫画史学家都认为，红花侠在1910到1920年代的文化中影响巨大。
And and I think most comic book historians say, you know, Scarlet Pimpernel is huge in the culture of the nineteen tens and nineteen twenties.
那时候的人们几乎都听说过他。
They would all have been aware of it.
另一个可能部分受他启发的角色是佐罗。
And the other character who he perhaps partly inspires is Zoro.
对。
Yes.
他也是戴着面具的。
He was also masked.
没错。
Yeah.
我们小时候应该都很熟悉佐罗这个角色。
And we I mean, Zoro was very familiar to us, I would imagine, when we grew up.
但我觉得现在没人记得他了，是吧？
But I think he's kind of forgotten now, isn't he?
你觉得现在的孩子还知道佐罗是谁吗？
Do you think kids now know who Zoro is?
以前拍过一部电影。
There was a film.
最近确实拍过一部。
There was a film recent Yeah.
但那部电影
But that's
已经是二十五年前的事了。
twenty five years ago.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对我们来说那算是最近的了，
Which is recent to us,
但对年轻人来说就不算近了。
but not Yeah.
我同意。
I agree.
没错。
I yes.
我我我……
I I I
所以他其实就是同一个人。
So he's a he's the same thing.
他从1919年起就一直是个戴着面具的义警。
He's a he now he really is a masked vigilante that he's created in 1919.
他有双重身份，平时是唐·迭戈·德·拉维加，但同时也是佐罗。
He has that dual identity, so he's Don Diego de la Vega, but he's also Zoro.
他还会用剑在东西上刻下Z字标志，就像蝙蝠侠的蝙蝠标志一样，很有特色。
He has the car the zed symbol that he kinda carves into things and stuff with his sword, which is very sort of suit like the bat symbol or whatever.
所以我觉得，他们的精神内核明显带着三十年代的风格。
So I think though they're clearly in the ethos in the thirties.
但话说回来，超级反派也是有的。
But but also, I mean, super villains.
我觉得可以算作幻影侠，没错。
So I would say Phantomass Yep.
这个超级罪犯在巴黎出没，就像小丑和企鹅人那样，给哥特式城市带来阴影。
Who this super criminal who haunts Paris rather in the way that the Joker and Penguin come to to haunt Gothic
而且我觉得他也有点像。
and I suppose is a bit
还有傅满洲。
of And Fu Manchu.
没错。
Absolutely.
这正是邦德和超级英雄这两种风格的交汇点。
And this is the kind of intersection point between, I guess, kind of Bond and superheroes Yeah.
就是那种全球阴谋的设定。
Is is this idea of global conspiracies.
对。
Yes.
不过邦德片里的阴谋至少还扎根于当时的地缘政治，搞得挺复杂的。
But but whereas the the the Bond ones are, however, baroquely kind of grounded in contemporary geopolitics.
我知道超人和蝙蝠侠确实在战争时期对抗过希特勒。
And I know that that Superman and and Batman do take on Hitler in in the in the war.
但这里的反派完全脱离了现实政治，变得非常抽象。
Essentially, the the the villains are completely abstracted from contemporary politics.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
They are.
对，我了解。
I I I I I know well, I know
不过话说回来，我觉得超人早期的形象其实更接地气一些。
that So Superman at first, though, is a bit more a bit more grounded, I would say.
嗯，我是说，在比较近的作品里，我了解。
Well, it comes it I mean, in more recent ones, I know
它
that it
它更接地气。
it is more rooted.
不过我觉得，你知道的，在四十年代、五十年代、六十年代，这些作品，我是说，至少是给小孩子看的。
But I think I think kind of, you know, through the the the forties, fifties, sixties, these are I mean, it's not it's at least for children.
那我们先从超人说起吧，毕竟超人是第一个正典超级英雄，对吧？
Well, let's start with Superman, because Superman's the first canonical superhero, isn't he, I suppose?
他出生于1938年，也就是十九世纪三十年代中期。
He's born in 1938, middle of nineteen thirty eight.
他之所以能代表这类故事，是因为像他这样的超级英雄，很多都是由犹太裔作家和插画家创作的，这些人往往有着双重身份，常常改过名字。
And he's and what makes him emblematic of the sort of story generally is like so many of these so many of these superheroes, they're created by by Jewish writers and illustrators who are who are themselves kind of dual identity because they've changed their names often.
没错。
Right.
我觉得这也是为什么人们不该觉得超人一定跟基督教有关，因为很多人一提到超人，就会这么想。
Which is, I think, another reason for not thinking that this is necessarily Christian because people so often say about Superman, isn't he?
他来自氪星，那个星球毁灭了，然后他重生，诸如此类的情节。
He he I mean, he he comes from Krypton, which dies, and he's reborn and all this kind of stuff.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这
I mean, that's
但有些作家说，这其实讲的是摩西和蒲草箱的故事。
But some writers have said he that's the it's the story of Moses and the bulrushes or whatever.
所以我觉得，这方面确实有一些影子。
So I think there are elements perhaps of that.
对。
Yeah.
就像蜘蛛侠身上也能看到，隐约有圣经先知的意味——被召唤去拯救自己的人民。
As as there comes to be with with, with Spider Man as well, that perhaps there are echoes of kind of biblical prophets who who are called to to save their people.
但我真的觉得，这种解读不能过度延伸。
But I think that I really, really think it's it's this should not be overdone.
我的意思是，这些故事在我看来，本质上是某种幻想：这里有个问题，来自《大西洋月刊》的资深政治记者汤姆·麦泰格提出的。
I mean, these are these are basically, it seems to me, fantasies about well, so there's a question here from Tom McTaig, a very distinguished political journalist of The Atlantic.
超级英雄本质上是不是右翼保守的？他们是浪漫化的个人英雄主义幻想，试图在一个堕落的世界里恢复荣誉与正义？
Are superheroes essentially right wing conservative as they are romantic fantasies of individual heroism restoring honor and justice to a decadent world?
在我看来，这确实就是超级英雄故事的核心所在。
And that does seem to me basically, to be what they're about.
你觉得什么是？
You think that's what?
但我觉得不是这样，我不认为
But I don't you see, I don't think
我觉得他们就像西部牛仔。
I I think they're cowboys.
他们是镇上的警长，来清理混乱。
They're sheriffs cleaning up the town.
我们拿超人来说。
Let's take Superman.
超人首次出现在《动作漫画》第一期，那实际上是春天。
Superman is emerges in action comics number one in it's actually the spring.
他不是在扔汽车吗？
Throwing a car, isn't he?
他当时38岁。
He's 38.
他把车扔向别人。
Throwing car on someone.
杂志标注的是六月，但他其实早在春天就出现了。
The issue's dated June, but he appears in the spring.
他是两个小伙子创造出来的角色。
He's the product of two guys.
他们当时都很年轻，名字叫杰里·西格尔和乔·舒斯特。
They're very young, and they're Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.
他们上过高中，犹太背景，其实很多这类人都是阿什肯纳兹犹太人，来自东欧。
They have met a high school, Jewish background, actually sort of so many of these people have gone Ashkenazi, Eastern European, Jewish roots.
他们后来改了名字。
They've changed their names.
他们是不是被纽约出版界排挤在外了？
And they're frozen out of kind of New York publishing, aren't they?
是这样吗？
Is that right?
没错。
Yes.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
实际上，这些人几乎都经历过某种形式的挣扎。
And that's actually the case of almost all these people that they have struggled in some way.
他们的漫画作品被看作是低人一等的。
Their comic books are seen as declass a.
但他们
They are But they
之所以去写漫画，是因为这几乎是他们唯一能靠写作赚钱的方式。
go into writing comic books because that's essentially the only way that they can Exactly.
靠写作挣钱。
Get paid for writing.
没错。
Exactly.
于是他们创造了超人。
So they create Superman.
超人诞生于1938年，那时美国还深陷大萧条，比英国持续得更久。
And Superman, it's 1938, so America is still actually really in the grip of the Great Depression, late later than Britain is.
所以当时的政治氛围非常紧张。
So it's it's politically very febrile.
超人的形象和服装，我之前真没想过，直到后来读到相关资料，才发现他其实是以马戏团大力士为原型的。
The the the Superman character, the costume, it hadn't occurred to me until I sort of read up on this that he's based on Circus Strongman.
对。
Yes.
所以他才把内裤穿在外面。
That's why he wears his pants outside.
裤子和紧身衣，没错。
The pants and the tights Yeah.
这在今天看来简直可笑，但在当时却被视为强大力量的象征。
I mean, which seems so laughable to us today, at the time, was seen as emblematic of great
力量的象征。
Of strength.
男子气概的象征。
Masculinity.
是的
Yeah.
当然
Absolutely.
一点都不荒唐
Not at all ridiculous.
因为她本身就很荒唐
Because she's ridiculous.
她特别喜欢强壮的男人和健身俱乐部
Is a big fan of strong men and fitness clubs.
话是这么说，确实有点滑稽
Mean, it is a bit ridiculous.
这其实是一种表演性质的东西
I mean, it is a kind of showmanship.
你去马戏团的时候，心里清楚看到的并不是真实的东西
I mean, you go to a circus and knowing that you're you're seeing something that's not real.
但那时候的人真能看出来吗？他们真能注意到这些吗？
But do they see that do they see that in the thirties?
他们看到的，是不是和我们眼中的眼神一样？
Do they see that same eyes?
我不确定，他们看到的会不会跟我们完全一样，不过……
I don't know they see it quite the same eyes as we Well,
也许吧，某种程度上确实如此。
maybe, but to a degree, I think.
但一开始，超人其实有很强的社会正义感。
But at the beginning, Superman has this sort of social activist side.
他专门对付那些黑心商人、腐败金融家，还有压榨穷人的家伙。
So he's taking on crooked businessmen, crooked financiers, people who are exploiting the poor.
这明显带着一种自由派新政的政治色彩。
There's a definite kind of liberal New Deal politics
但问题是，为什么非得靠超人来替我们做这些事呢？
to But but but it's also I mean, why do why do you have to rely on a Superman to do that for you?
为什么不能依靠警察呢。
Why can't you rely on the police.
为什么不能依靠
Why can't you rely
强大的工会。
on strong trade unions.
那是
Is that
你提到的
what you're on
强大的工会。
strong trade unions.
没错。
Exactly.
你得依靠这种大人物，穿着得体、有担当的那种。
You have to, you know, you have to turn to this kind of big guy with with his pants on.
但还有
But there
另外两个政治因素。
are two other political elements.
一个是克拉克·肯特这种角色——那个被欺负、书呆子气十足却最终逆袭的小人物，这在两次世界大战之间的文化中是个很常见的主题，英国人管这叫‘小人物翻身’。
One is that the Clark Kent character, the character of the sort of downtrodden, nerdy guy who comes good, That's quite a theme in kinda interwar culture, the little man, people would call it in Britain.
那种被忽视、被低估的人，最后却战胜了所有瞧不起他的人，这在某种程度上也像美国的霍雷肖·阿尔杰故事——穷小子逆袭成功那一套。
The sort of the underrated, underestimated chap who actually triumphs over all those who've I mean, that's also, you know, slightly Horatio Alger in America, the kind of the the the the poor boy made good kind of thing.
这确实深深植根于当时的文化背景。
I mean, that's absolutely rooted in the culture of the time.
另一点是，很多研究漫画的人指出，超人本身就是一个移民。
The other thing is that a lot of people who've written about comic books argue point out that super Superman is, of course, an immigrant.
对。
Yeah.
他是个新来的人。
He's a newcomer.
而且这些书，但是
And these books But
他是来自氪星的。
he's coming from Krypton.
而且这些，嗯，我的意思是，他，好吧。
And these well, I mean, he okay.
他总得来自某个地方。
Some he's gotta come from somewhere.
但这些故事是由很多本身就是第二代移民的人创作的。
But these stories are written by people who are often, you know, second generation immigrants themselves.
所以这反映的是局外人融入美国主流文化的过程。
So it's the sort of assimilation into the American way of outsiders.
这一点在超人的故事里也有所体现。
And that's there in the Superman story.
不过，
Although,
某种程度上，超人其实并没有真正融入，对吧？
in a way, Superman isn't assimilated, is he?
我的意思是，这正是关键所在。
I mean, that's the point.
这些超级英雄，归根结底都没能真正融入社会，这本身就成了一个主题。
I mean, all these superheroes are are are not, in the long run, assimilated, and that becomes a theme.
直到今天还是这样，比如X战警，他们都是变种人。
Right the way up to the present day, you know, because x men are mutants.
蝙蝠侠本质上就像个心理异常的人。
Batman's basically a kind of psychopath.
这些角色，尤其是现在更复杂的改编版本，都在玩味一个事实：他们身上总有些难以被主流接受的地方。
I mean, all these peep the and the more kind of sophisticated reworkings of these stories make play with the fact that actually there's something slightly difficult about
这些，没错。
these Yes.
确实如此。
They do.
那些穿着斗篷、到处揍人的人。
People who
有洞穴的人。
have caves
而且老是打打杀杀的。
and cloaks kinda beating people up.
我觉得吧。
Well, I think
克拉克·肯特和超人，其实体现了一种精神分裂的特质。
so so so so so Clark Kent and Superman is presumably a kind of embodiment of the schizophrenic quality
大概是这样。
I suppose so.
一种移民的特质。
Of an immigrant.
是的。
Yeah.
既融入又不融入，我想是这样的。
Both belonging and not belonging, I suppose.
而且这也很像，我的意思是，几乎有种精神分裂的感觉。
And that's also true this I mean, almost schizophrenic.
我的意思是，蝙蝠侠是后来才出现的，大概一年后吧？
I mean, Batman so Batman is created, what, a year later?
鲍勃·凯恩，其实他本名罗伯特·凯恩，是个阿什肯纳兹犹太裔作家，还有比尔·芬格。
Bob Kane, who's actually an you know, Robert Khan, another Ashkenazi Jewish writer, Bob Kane and Bill Finger.
所以那是1939年3月的《侦探漫画》。
So that's Detective Comics in March 1939.
不过蝙蝠侠有点不一样，因为他没有超能力。
Now Batman is slightly different because he's he's
他没有超能力，对吧？
He doesn't have a superpower, does he?
没有。
No.
所以他其实就是哥谭市的红花侠。
So he really is the Scarlet Pimpernel in Gotham City.
他是个富有的、不靠谱的贵族，或者至少表面上看起来是这样——布鲁斯·韦恩。
He is a rich, feckless aristocrat or somebody who appears to be that, I.
布鲁斯·韦恩。
Bruce Wayne.
就连克里斯托弗·诺兰的电影也保留了这一特点。
And and the even the Christopher Nolan films have that element to them.
他的父母被劫匪杀害了。
His parents have been killed by muggers.
没错。
Right.
然后他就成了义警。
And becomes a vigilante.
很明显，这反映了人们对犯罪以及类似问题的焦虑。
So, obviously, that's got a you can see that as reflecting anxieties about crime and all that sort of stuff.
人们都会质疑。
And people question.
对。
Yeah.
他为什么要打扮成蝙蝠的样子？
Why does he dress up as a bat?
其实很多人都讨论过，关于这一点有很多不同的看法。
Well, there's people have sort of talked there's been lots of arguments about this.
有趣的是，这些角色背后，创作者和插画师之间总是有争议，都说自己才是真正的原创者。
Because the what's interesting with all these characters is there's always subsequent rouse between the writer and the illustrator about who the real inventor is.
没错。
Yes.
据说，蝙蝠翅膀的设计灵感来自达·芬奇，有这种说法吧。
There's a claim, isn't there, that they got the inspiration for the bat wings from Leonardo da Vinci.
是的。
Yes.
看到了吗？
See that?
是扑翼机。
Ornithopter.
对。
Yes.
一种飞行器。
Flying machine.
没错。
Yep.
但你知道他为什么叫布鲁斯·韦恩吗？
But you know why he's called Bruce Wayne?
不知道。
No.
他的名字其实是编剧比尔·芬格。
So his his his his name says Bill Finger, the writer.
布鲁斯·韦恩的名字来源于苏格兰的罗伯特·布鲁斯。
Bruce Wayne's first name came from Robert the Bruce.
原来如此。
Oh.
他是苏格兰人。
He's Scottish.
后来他想选个能让美国人联想到殖民历史的名字。
And he then thought he wanted a name that reminded Americans of colonialism.
他试过亚当斯和汉考克，都是美国开国元勋那样的独立运动人物。
He tried Adams Hancock, sort of founding fathers, US and more of independence figures.
然后我想起了安东尼·韦恩，其实我以前根本没听说过这个人。
And then I thought of mad Anthony Wayne, who apparent I'd never heard of him, actually.
他是美国独立战争时期的一位将军，于是就用了这个名字。
He's a general in the American US War of Independence, and he gives him that name.
所以就有了这个说法。
So hence
瞧瞧，这就对了。
There you go.
我知道。
I know.
布鲁斯·韦恩。
Bruce Wayne.
这名字真酷。
It's cool.
《蝙蝠侠》这个播客太棒了。
Batman is great podcast this is.
我每天都在学新东西。
I'm learning this every day.
蝙蝠侠嘛，咱们俩都在学。
Batman is well, we're both learning.
我们一直在学习，汤姆。
We're learning all the time, Tom.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，
Well, I think what
我学到的是，
I learned,
我觉得这一点特别惊人，但有个小问题，因为这是一档播客。
and this I did think this was amazing, and it's a a slight problem because this is a podcast.
但小丑，是的，
But the the Joker Yeah.
蝙蝠侠长期的对手小丑，他的形象据说源自1928年的无声电影《笑面人》。
Batman's long running adversary, The look of him apparently came from this 1928 silent film, The Man Who Laughs
对。
Yeah.
康拉德。
Conrad.
主角叫康拉德·弗莱特。
Featuring a guy Conrad Fight.
你之前看过这部电影吗？
Had you seen that before?
于是我查了一下，说实话，我都不知道他们是怎么通过审核的。
So I looked it up, and it's I mean, I don't know how they got away with it.
简直一模一样。
It's exactly the same.
确实完全一样。
It is exactly.
不过现在漫画书就是这样运作的。
But that's how also these comic books work these days.
它们通常被看作是给小孩看的低俗娱乐。
I mean, they're seen as very kind of lowbrow kids entertainment.
所以，显然它们到处都在抄袭。
So, obviously, they're ripping off things left, right, and center.
而且他们之所以能得逞，是因为没人会想到，他们当时创造的这些角色，居然能成为延续到二十一世纪的IP。
And that's and, of course, they get away with it because what they no one thinks at the time they're creating franchises that will last twenty first century.
他们只觉得这不过是随手写的通俗小说，转眼就会被人忘得一干二净。
They just think this is disposable pulp fiction that will be, you know, almost instantly forgotten.
所以你有没有收集过一些挺有意思的角色？我觉得你应该有吧？
So you have all these have you I believe you have a, do you not have a some sort of list of amusing characters
谁没有呢？
who didn't?
我有。
I do.
我有。
I do.
当然了，超人和蝙蝠侠都大获成功，估计还沾了战争的光。
Because, of course, Superman and Batman, very successful, and presumably turbocharged by the war.
对吧？
Right?
是的
Yeah.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
所以他们
So they
他们在和美国队长打仗，当然，美国队长。
So they're fighting the Captain America and Captain America, of course.
打的是极度爱国的旗号。
Fighting ultra patriotic.
整个战争期间，超级英雄突然大量涌现。
So through the war, the the war years, you have this vast explosion of superheroes.
当然，也有一些没能撑下来。
And so there were there were some that didn't make it.
这就像是超级英雄之间一场达尔文式的生存竞争。
So this kind of Darwinian struggle for superheroes to make it through.
当时还有一位叫‘致命夫人’的角色。
So there was there was madame fatal.
这倒是挺成功的。
That's a good win.
他其实是理查德·斯坦顿，一位退休演员，扮成老太太去打击犯罪。
Who was actually Richard Stanton, a retired actor who fought crime disguised as an old lady.
明白了。
Okay.
我能理解为什么这个角色没撑下去。
That wasn't I can I can see why that didn't work out?
这个角色是卡佩尔·洛夫提到的，明显是想在我们面前拍马屁。
This this is one mentioned by Cappel Loft, who is obviously trying to suck up to us after this.
他以前是节目的朋友，后来渐渐地……
Formerly a friend of the show, then kind of a
他搞了个竞争对手的世界杯……
he Well, he he set up a rival World Cup of
国王大道。
Kings Way.
但现在他真的改过自新了。
But now he's really he's he's changed his ways.
是的，他改了。
He has.
他彻底转变了。
He's reformed.
他还推荐了一位执事，那是一位改过自新的窃贼，平时伪装成英国圣公会的牧师打击犯罪。
And he he nominated the deacon, who is a reformed burglar, who who fights crime disguised as a Church of England clergyman.
我实在想不通。
I can't I can't understand.
为什么
Why does
这怎么就没流行起来呢？
that Why that hasn't caught on?
为什么这件事
Why does that make
对他来说讲得通呢？
sense with him?
真是让人
Marvel all over
百思不得其解。
that.
为什么汤姆·赫兰德
Why isn't Tom Holland
没演那个执事？
playing the deacon?
这也是我想问的。
That's my question.
那个同性恋幽灵
Does the gay ghost
那个同性恋幽灵到底干什么？
The gay what's the gay ghost do?
那个同性恋幽灵是十八世纪爱尔兰的一位贵族，他
The gay ghost is, an eighteenth century nobleman in Ireland who's a
是个幽灵。
ghost.
对。
Right.
明白了。
Okay.
这简直就是超能力。
And that's a superpower.
他是个幽灵，就是个幽灵。
He's a he's a he's a ghost.
我可以给你打电话。
I can call you.
是的。
Yeah.
超级反派叫‘运动大师’，他的犯罪方式就是朝人扔体育器材。
Super the supervillain called the sports master, who's who's who's a villainy consists of throwing sports kit at people.
比如板球护具之类的，
Well, like, kind of a cricket box or,
像板球。
like Cricket.
没错。
Exactly.
还有一些障碍杆。
Some cones.
我其实想的是，那种你在健身房里跳过去的跨栏杆，对吧。
Well, I was kind of thinking, you know, those things that you jump over in in Right.
健身房。
19 gyms.
所以是跨栏。
So hurdles.
对。
Yeah.
还有药球。
And medicine balls
以及类似的东西。
and things like that.
没错。
Right.
但说实话，我觉得这挺吓人的。
But, I mean, quite I would find
确实挺吓人的。
that terrifying, actually.
我知道。
I know.
我的意思是，你总不能为了防身，随身带着个大包，假装是运动装备，好去抢银行吧？
But, I mean, how do how do you go around big you know, robbing banks or whatever, locking a great bag for a sports kit just in case you're attacked?
我说了，难怪这个办法行不通。
I say, you can kinda see why that one didn't work out.
是的。
Yeah.
不管怎样，这太可怕了。
Anyway That's terrible.
因为那个人养了很多蜜蜂。
Because the fellow's got a lot of bees.
不是的。
No.
他不是那种腰带里藏着一堆蜜蜂，然后突然放出来的那种人。
He's not a man who's got lots of bees hidden in his belt, and he releases them.
我记不起他叫什么了。
I can't remember what he's called.
大概是那种红蜂之类的吧。
The red bee or something like that.
是的。
Yeah.
不过呢，这整个事儿都挺...
Anyway, it's all it's all very
但有个人他...
But somebody who's
这跟那些心理前因根本没关系，嗯，不算。
it has nothing this has nothing to do with with the nervous antecedents or Well, no.
但这跟历史有关，
But it's history,
对吧？
isn't it?
因为说到底，这反映的是三四十年代的文化。
Because, I mean, it's we're we're it's the culture of the nineteen thirties and forties.
其实，它
And actually It
确实如此。
it is.
但我的意思是，这并没有根植于
But what I'm saying is that this is not drawing on deep rooted
不是的。
It's not.
关于记忆，好的。
Memories of Okay.
给你介绍个角色，汤姆，他那些梦境和记忆都根深蒂固。
Here's a character for you, Tom, that does dream deep drawn deep rooted memories, I.
亚马逊女战士的神话。
The myth of the Amazons.
所以，我们刚才聊到的那些角色，其实都……
So all the characters we talked about have been
神奇女侠。
Wonder Woman.
神奇女侠。
Wonder Woman.
所以神奇女侠是这样的，如果超人是1938年出现的，蝙蝠侠是1939年，
So Wonder Woman is, she arrives so if I had Superman, '38, Batman, '39.
神奇女侠则是在1941年登场，她是戴安娜公主，
Wonder Woman comes along in 1941, and she is princess Diana
来自汉普顿。
Of the Hamptons.
来自天堂岛，她是希波吕忒女王的女儿。
Of Themyscira, which is an island inhabited by she's the daughter of queen of queen Hippolyta.
希波吕忒。
Hippolyta.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
所以她的背景可真是源远流长，对吧？
So she has a very impressive kind of ancient world pedigree, doesn't she?
没错。
She does.
但说到底，这还是本先生的故事。
But she she is you know, this is still mister Ben.
没错。
Right.
因为实际上，神奇女侠的灵感来源并不是
Because, actually, what Wonder Woman is drawing on is not
深层的东西，这挺有意思的
deep This is an interesting
故事。
story.
古希腊的。
Of of ancient Greece.
是的。
Yeah.
但神奇女侠的设定其实源自一个叫威廉·莫尔顿·马斯顿的人，他是个心理学教授。
But the the fantasies of a guy called William Molton Marston, who's who's a professor of psychology.
据说他是测谎仪的发明者，对吧？
Well, he's he's said to be the inventor of the light detector, isn't he?
但据传，那其实是他从妻子那儿剽窃来的。
But apparently, he ripped it off from his his wife.
是他妻子发明的，他却把它据为己有。
His wife invented it, and he then kinda passed it off.
这真是个非同寻常的故事。
Well, this is an extraordinary story.
他是个哈佛毕业的心理学家，不仅别人这么认为，他自己也宣称发明了测谎仪，做了很多了不起的事，但其实全是假的。
So he's he's like a Harvard educated psychologist who who's who's credited, not least by himself, with having invented the polygraph and and doing all this But he lied.
就是人格，那个
Which is personality, which
这简直荒谬得可笑。
is ironically hilarious.
所有这些不同的人格都在里面。
All these personalities there.
他娶了另一位心理学家，叫伊丽莎白，但他们三个人住在一起，而且彼此都心知肚明。
So he is married to another psychologist called Elizabeth, but they live with they have a kind of they have not even knowledge.
对。
Yeah.
他们三个人一起生活。
They have there are three of them in it.
三个人都住在同一个婚姻里。
Live all the three of them in this marriage.
对。
Yeah.
他们总是互相绑着。
And they're always tying each other up.
奥利芙·拜恩。
Olive Byrne.
他们总是互相玩捆绑之类的游戏。
And they all they're always doing bondage with each other and stuff.
所以，神奇女侠当然有她的魔法套索。
And and so, Wonder Woman, of course, has her magic lasso.
是的。
Yeah.
她总是把别人绑起来。
And she's She's always tying people up.
但更关键的是，神奇女侠自己也经常被锁链捆住、堵住嘴。
But more germanely, Wonder Woman herself is always being chained, bound, gagged.
他对这些事可是直言不讳，对吧？
And he's he's completely upfront about this, isn't he?
嗯，也不是。
Well, no.
但他写得越多，束缚的元素就越多。
But the more he writes them, the more the more the bondage comes in.
没错。
Exactly.
有句特别精彩的话。
So there's this great line.
有一次，有个女人大喊：‘啊，阿佛洛狄忒的神带啊！’
At at one point, one woman actually cries out, great girdle of Aphrodite.
我真是受够了被绑着。
I'm so tired of being tied up.
但你知道，她其实并不真的这么想。
But you know she isn't really.
你知道的，她其实很享受。
You know she loves it.
他对这一点直截了当，毫不隐瞒。
He he's utterly upfront about it.
他对漫画特别着迷。
So he's fascinated by comic books.
他认为漫画代表了一种理想主义、高雅的表达方式，比如马斯顿和伯恩这些人。
He thinks they're the way to he's they're they're very kind of idealistic kind of high brow people, Marston and and Marston and Burn or whatever they're called.
他自己说过，神奇女侠是一种心理宣传，旨在塑造一种我坚信应该统治世界的新女性。
And he says he says himself, Wonder Woman is psychological propaganda for the new type of woman who I believe should rule the world.
他说太多女孩缺乏力量、勇气和魄力。
He says too many girls lack force, strength, and power.
他认为最直接的解决办法，就是创造一个兼具超人力量和完美女性魅力的女性角色。
He wants to the the obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.
但他认为，顺从中也蕴含着力量。
Well, he he but he thinks that there is strength in submission.
有一个特别精彩的剧情，神奇女侠救出了一群被邪恶纳粹囚禁的女性，最终纳粹被击败。
So there's an amazing plot where Wonder Woman rescues, a group of women who've been enslaved by an evil Nazi, and the Nazi gets defeated.
但转折在于，那些被救出来的女孩反而怀念当奴隶的日子。
But the twist is is that that the girls who's been rescued then miss being slaves.
于是神奇女侠把她们送到了亚马逊群岛，在那里她们可以快乐地继续当奴隶。
So Wonder Woman sends them off to to the Amazons where they can all live happily as slaves.
这真是太奇怪了。
It's very strange.
这里还有他的一段话。
There's another quote from him here.
和平的唯一希望，就是让那些精力充沛、充满力量的人，学会享受被束缚的感觉。
The only hope for peace is to teach people who are full of pep and unbound force to enjoy being bound.
只有当被他人掌控比自由放纵更让人愉悦时，我们才有可能实现稳定和平的人类社会。
Only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society.
而女性若无法表达这种倾向所带来的危险，则通过毒药博士这个角色体现出来。
And the risks the risk the risk of of women not being allowed to express this, is conveyed through the character of doctor Poison.
有
Have
你跟我说说毒药博士这个人。
you Tell me about doctor Poison.
不行。
No.
我不是。
I'm not.
毒药博士是个邪恶的超级反派，专门羞辱女性，跟神奇女侠作对，最惊人的是，她居然也是个女人。
So doctor Poison is is an an evil supervillain who loves humiliating women, confronts Wonder Woman, and amazingly, is revealed to be a woman
明白了。
Got it.
这真是
That's
她对顺从的渴望被压抑了，这才变得如此邪恶。
love of submission has been frustrated and therefore has corrupted her into becoming this evil figure.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你可以
So you can
明白为什么会出现这种情况。
see why there.
根本没有边界，而且显然在五十年代，当时掀起了巨大的反弹，对吧？
There aren't eat borders, and, obviously, in the nineteen fifties, there was this tremendous backlash, wasn't there?
是的。
Yes.
为什么会这样？
Was this Why?
当时有个叫弗雷德里克·沃瑟姆的人，好像是个精神病学家，写了一本书叫《对纯真的引诱》，1954年出版，引起了巨大轰动。
And there's this guy who's himself a kind of a psychiatrist, I think, called Frederick Wortham, who writes a book called The Seduction of the Innocent published in 1954, which causes this tremendous stir.
这本书被搬上了国会听证会，他基本在说，漫画和超级英雄故事正在腐蚀青少年。
It's taken up by congressional hearings and stuff, where he basically says comic books and superhero stories are corrupting youth.
他还提到，读超人漫画的孩子不会听父母和老师的话，因为相比之下，父母和老师显得太软弱、太无趣了。
But he says at one point, kids who read Superman won't listen to their parents or teachers because their parents and teachers will seem so weak and bland by comparison.
所以，我们该把超人彻底打压下去。
Ergo, we should stamp out Superman.
但这么说，就跟认为我们不能允许西部拓荒时代的义警和 sheriff 随意开枪一样。
But, I mean, that's that's the kind of equivalent of saying that we can't allow vigilantes and sheriffs to kinda shoot people in the Wild West.
而这恰恰印证了我的观点。
And that exactly that exactly proves my point.
有趣的是，漫画迷们都很讨厌他，觉得是他毁了这一切。
Well, I mean, he the interesting thing is he's loathed and hated by comic book enthusiasts because they see him as having Stop it.
但显然，他确实指出了某些问题，比如捆绑元素，还有超级英雄故事里那种明显的法西斯倾向。
But but, obviously, what he some of the things that he identifies so he identifies the bondage, and he does identify what some people might see as a slightly fascistic or you clearly see as a slightly fascistic element to superhero stories.
比如超人这样拥有超能力、自己当法官和执法者的人。
So the idea of a Superman, somebody with powers who takes the law into their own hands.
沃瑟姆在1954年说，这些东西全都是害人的。
Wirtham says in 1954, all this stuff is terrible.
我想，今天还是有人会同意他的看法。
And I guess some people today will probably agree with him.
我觉得有趣的是，公众道德的转变其实是在重演五十年代的很多观点。
Well, I I mean, I think that that's what's interesting about the the turn that public morality has taken, which is that actually, it's a reprise of quite a lot of perspectives in the fifties.
六七十年代和八十年代的时候，那种束缚题材可是被当成酷炫的东西来追捧的。
So now, know, in the sixties and seventies and eighties, you know, brilliant bondage, woohoo.
但现在，它又被认为是有问题的了。
Now it's it's seen as more problematic again.
真的是这样吗？
Or is it?
这些现象恰恰说明了为什么超级英雄这么有意思——它们就像一面镜子，因为这种形式极其民主，也极其受欢迎。
You know, these these are and I guess that that's why superheroes are interesting is that they do hold a mirror up to because they're an incredibly democratic, incredibly popular form.
它们真实地映照出过去这一百年里，美国社会的焦虑、道德恐慌和道德内卷是如何运作的。
They do hold up a a really, really fascinating mirror to the the way that neuroses and cultural anxieties and morality panics and virtue spirals operate in The United States over over the past, what, century, basically.
你提到美国，是因为确实挺有意思的。
And you say The United States because they are it's interesting.
当然，英国也有像英国队长这样的角色，但超级英雄本质上还是美国特有的，对吧？
They are there there have, of course, been attempts to have there've been Britain there was captain Britain and so on, but they are really specifically American, aren't they?
我觉得这就是我一直以来对它们提不起兴趣的原因。
And I think that's why I was never interested in them, particularly.
因为你讨厌，是因为你对美国有偏见。
Because you're you hate because you're Americanophobic.
我知道。
I know.
就是它们对我来说太陌生了，完全不搭边。
It's just it's just It's a basic They they just seem very, very foreign to me.
所以我其实读《阿斯泰利克斯》一点问题都没有。
So I I I guess I I mean, I had no problem reading Asterix.
我很喜欢《阿斯泰利克斯》和《丁丁历险记》。
I loved Asterix and Tintin.
它们看起来就像是我生活世界里的一部分。
They they seem kind of part of the world that I I inhabited.
但这些漫画里，那些方下巴、戴三角帽的男性角色，说实话，我真没法代入。
But these, you know, square jawed men with trilbies in Yeah.
街巷阴暗。
Mean streets.
这跟威尔特郡可差远了。
I mean, was a long way from Wiltshire.
这不就是你的撒切尔主义风格吗？
Well, this is your Ted Heathism, isn't it?
希思肯定同意你的看法。
Ted Heath would agree with you.
没错。
Yeah.
他当年带英国加入欧洲时，大概也会把你当成同乡知己。
Would he would just see you as a great you know, when he was taking Britain into Europe, you as a fellow Wiltshire enthusiast.
不过我觉得，还有另一个原因，这也可能引出下一个话题，杰拉尔德。
But I think the other reason why the other and this kind of opens up the maybe the next stage, Gerald.
在咱们休息之前，我想说一点：我从来就没把詹姆斯·邦德当真，因为我从小看的是罗杰·摩尔演的邦德。
But I'll just say this before we go to the break, is that rather like I never took James Bond seriously because I grew up with Roger Moore as James Bond.
所以我最早接触超级英雄，是通过亚当·韦斯特和伯特·沃德演的蝙蝠侠和罗宾，那完全是冲着搞笑去的。
So, also, basically, my introduction to superheroes was Adam West and Bert Ward as Batman and Robin, which was paid almost entirely for laughs.
纯粹就是逗乐的。
Completely for laughs.
比如那个蝙蝠侠用的鲨鱼驱散剂。
So so, you know, the the the bat shark repellent gas.
还有那种‘砰砰啪啪’的特效字幕。
The powwam kind of stuff that appears
出现在屏幕上。
on screen.
还有那些反派角色。
And the villains.
比如文森特·普莱斯演的‘蛋头’。
So Vincent Price's egghead.
还有那个老是变成图坦卡蒙的教授。
There was the professor who kept turning into Tutankhamun.
我特别喜欢这个。
I love that.
没错。
Yeah.
还有凯撒·罗梅罗演的小丑，他死活不刮胡子。
There was Cesar Romero as the joker who refused to shave his mustache.
所以他们确实
So they've they've
把胡子涂掉了吧？
painted over, haven't they?
把胡子涂掉了。
Painted over it.
我刚才看了一段当时的录像。
And I was watching some of the footage.
好多年都没想过这事了，但居然还是被当作老生常谈提了出来。
I hadn't thought about it for years and years, but it was still held up a routine question.
你最近有没有卖过什么军用潜艇？
Have you recently sold any war surplus submarines?
如果有的话，是卖给谁的？
And if so, to whom?
其实那是莱斯利·尼尔森。
And it's actually it's Leslie Nielsen.
就是《白头神探》那部片子。
It's it's the naked gun.
对。
Yeah.
我能理解。
I can see that.
而且我觉得，你知道的，这基本上就是我一直没法把它当回事的原因。
And I think, you know, it's that's basically why I've never been able to take it seriously.
好吧，希望你在下半场能认真对待，因为我们接下来当然会聊到你最喜欢的超级英雄。
Well, let's hope you take it serious in the second half because we will, of course, be coming to your own favorite superhero.
对。
Yes.
蜘蛛侠。
Spider Man.
蜘蛛小子。
Spidey.
广告后回来见。
We'll see you after the break.
本集由美国国家档案馆赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by The National Archives.
我是汤姆·霍兰德，来自《进球者》和《历史其余部分》。
It's Tom Holland here from Goal Hangers, The Rest Is History.
美国独立常被描绘成一场追求自由、弘扬民主理想的胜利，但那也是一个充满巨大风险与暴力的时期，彻底颠覆了殖民地的世界。
Now American independence is often painted as a quest for freedom, a triumph of democratic ideals, but it was also a period of immense risk and violence, which turned the colonial world upside down.
如果你不想只听那些耳熟能详的波士顿倾茶事件和红衣军团的故事，我有个好消息要告诉你。
So if you want to go beyond the familiar tales of the Boston Tea Party and red coated battalions, I have some marvelous news for you.
国家档案馆正在举办一场免费展览，名为‘革命250：美国独立的故事，1763至1783年’。
The National Archives is holding a free exhibition, revolution two fifty, America's independent story seventeen sixty three to 1783.
这不仅仅是关于宣言、战役和革命英雄的故事。
It's not just a story of declarations and battles and revolutionary heroes.
它揭示了大西洋两岸决策背后的人性代价。
It uncovers the human cost of decisions made on both sides of the Atlantic.
你还会听到那些常被边缘化的声音。
You'll also encounter voices too often pushed to the margins.
千万别错过这场千载难逢的展览。
Don't miss this once in a lifetime exhibition.
‘革命250：美国独立的故事，1763至1783年’，将于6月24日至11月29日在国家档案馆展出。
Revolution two fifty, America's independent story 1763 to 1783, June 24 to November 29 at The National Archives in Queue.
那么，多米尼克，在我们继续聊超级英雄之前，该谈谈我们最爱的在线杂志UnHerd了。
So, Dominic, before we get back to superheroes, it is time to talk about UnHerd, our favorite online magazine.
对。
Yes.
经常听节目的朋友应该记得，几周前你提到过一篇正在写的稿子。
And, regular listeners, will remember that a couple of weeks ago, you were talking about, an article that you you had in the works.
我当时问你那篇是讲什么的，你却一直故作神秘。
And I asked you to say what it was, and you were being very coy about it.
但现在
But it's now
我来告诉你。
tell you.
是的。
Yeah.
都已经发表了，对吧？
Well, it's now come out, hasn't it?
那到底讲的是什么？
And and what was It it
是关于《魔戒》第一部《护戒同盟》上映二十周年的，主角是杰拉德
was all about so it's the twentieth anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring, the first, Gerard
彼得·杰克逊。
Peter Jackson.
指《指环王》系列，彼得·杰克逊执导的那部电影。
Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson film.
之后他还拍了不少更出色的作品。
And went on to do better things.
彼得·杰克逊。
Peter Jackson.
归来。
Back.
它并不比
It's not better than
《指环王》更好。
the lord of the rings.
它非常相似。
It's very similar.
你疯了吧。
You're mad.
你疯了吗？
Are you mad?
一群粉丝克服了重重困难。
Group of fans overcoming Terrible.
历经磨难才达成目标。
Tribulation to achieve
了不起的事。
great things.
是的。
Yeah.
《指环王》上映二十周年了，他们问我对《指环王》电影或者更准确地说，对托尔金现象有什么看法。
So it's twentieth anniversary of the lord of the rings, and they said, do you have anything to say about the lord of the rings films or the lord well, really, the Tolkien phenomenon.
你知道的，我向来对托尔金有很多话说，而UnHerd的人也很乐意给我这个机会。
And, I always have things to say about Tolkien, as you know, and the people at UnHerd were very kind enough to indulge me.
但你生气是因为你觉得我没提，其实你并不希望我涉足你的领域。
But you're cross because you think I didn't mention I you didn't wanna come onto your turf.
我根本没提基督教。
I didn't mention Christianity.
那不算生气。
That wasn't cross.
我觉得这篇稿子写得特别好，这我早有预料，毕竟你谈托尔金总是这么出色。
I thought it was a wonderful essay, as I'd expect because you're always wonderful on Tolkien.
我只是觉得，如果你在讨论托尔金的灵感来源，或许可以提一提基督教。
I just felt that, if you're talking about Tolkien's inspirations, you you might have mentioned Christianity.
不过。
But
我其实也不是没提，但这更适合
didn't I didn't But that's something for
留到以后的节目里，或者下次你来提问时再聊。
maybe a a future a future episode for us, a future ask for you.
是的。
Yeah.
不过说到基督教，UnHerd 正在推出一项圣诞特别优惠，真不错。
Anyway, on the topic of of Christianity, UnHerd are launching a Christmas special offer to celebrate Oh, that's nice.
庆祝耶稣降生。
The birth of the baby Jesus.
那太好了。
So that's great.
可以当礼物送人。
Be a present for somebody.
你可以把 UnHerd 的会员资格作为圣诞礼物送给朋友或家人。
So you can gift UnHerd membership to a friend or family member for Christmas.
我真不敢相信你居然把 'gift' 当动词用。
I can't believe you're using the word gift as a verb.
我刚不就这么说了吗？
I just did, didn't I?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但你平时都这么干吗？
But do you do you do you do that normally?
我是在伦敦奥运会时开始这么做的，那时候运动员站上领奖台后。
I I I started doing it in the at the the London Olympics where people podiumed
然后就插手了。
and meddled.
哦，插手啊。
Oh, meddling.
而且我呢，
And I I it's,
是啊，我挺喜欢把名词用作动词的。
yeah, I'm into verbing.
是的。
Yeah.
动词化。
Verbing.
不过，你打断我了，我本来在读一段话：如果你认识谁需要接触一些不同的观点，你呢，多米尼克？
Anyway, you're distracting me from what I meant to be reading, which is if you know someone who could do with confronting some different perspectives do you, Dominic?
你认识谁需要接触一些不同的观点吗？
Do you know someone who could do with confronting some different perspectives?
是的。
Yeah.
我认识。
I do.
实际上，我认识不少人。
Actually, I know loads of people.
那这样的话，‘未听会员’可能适合他们。
Well, in that case, unheard membership could be for them.
上面说，他们如果能质疑一些自己深信不疑的观点，可能会受益。
It says that they should bend they could benefit from questioning some of their certainties.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
我明白。
I do.
我认识很多这样的人。
I know a lot people like that.
全是搞学术的。
All academics.
那这就是你的圣诞礼物了，事情就这么定了。
That's that's your Christmas gift, and it's sorted then.
对。
Yeah.
现在还有一个特别优惠，把年费从原来的49英镑降到39英镑，还送一个特别包，上面印着醒目的标签，标榜自己不受群体思维影响。
And there's a special offer which brings an annual subscription down £10 to only £39, and there's an unheard bag with this fabulous label on it, immune to herd mentality.
是的。
Yeah.
这又是个双刃剑，对吧？
It's again it's again, it's that double edged thing though, isn't it?
因为要是太多人都背这个包，我可知道会怎样。
Because if too many people carry that bag I know.
想象一下。
Imagine.
他们可能看起来就跟那宣传一模一样。
They might look like it.
一群人都背一样的包，那不就成群了嘛。
Imagine a herd would look like a herd.
确实会。
It would.
这正是我担心的。
That's what worries me.
我总在担心，万一Unheard太成功了，有人会搞个叫‘Herd’的竞争对手网站。
I'm always worried with unheard whether somebody will set up a rival website called herd if unheard becomes becomes too successful.
但很明显，我们还没到那一步。
But clear clearly, we're not at that stage yet.
我的意思是，大家 definitely 应该去unheard.com看看详情，但得抓紧，别等那群人一来就晚了。
I mean, people should definitely visit unheard.com to find out more, but do so quickly before the herd
是的。
Yeah.
就快到了。
Arrive.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
现在我们回到超级英雄的话题。
And now back to superheroes.
最受欢迎的漫威英雄，社会地位其实很低。
The most popular Marvel hero is much lower on the social scale.
他是那个性格孤僻的青少年——蜘蛛侠，是我见过的唯一一个明显有神经质倾向的超级英雄。
He is the maladjusted adolescent Spider Man, the only overtly neurotic superhero I've ever come across.
蜘蛛侠有严重的身份认同问题，明显的自卑情结，还害怕女性。
Spider Man has a terrible identity problem, a marked inferiority complex, and a fear of women.
他社交回避，被阉割焦虑困扰，背负着俄狄浦斯式的内疚，而且总是倒霉不断。
He's antisocial, castration ridden, wrapped with Oedipal guilt, and accident prone.
像超人这样健康正面的角色，怎么跟这个代表现代困境的活生生象征、这个神经质的超级反英雄——蜘蛛侠抗衡呢？
How can a character as healthy as Superman compete with this living symbol of the modern dilemma, this neurotics neurotics, Spider Man, the super antihero of our time?
汤姆，这是1965年那个村子里的声音。
Now, Tom, that was the village voice in 1965.
你打算为你心中的另一个自我辩护吗？
Do you want to stand up for your alter ego?
我真没意识到这一点。
I I I hadn't realized it.
对，确实如此。
I Yeah.
我没想到原来我就是那样的人。
I hadn't realized that that's who I was.
这太不可思议了。
It's just uncanny.
这这这……
It's it's it's
这感觉很诡异。
it's eerie.
比如关于阉割的那些说法。
The the cast stuff about castration, for example.
我的意思是，你在播客里提到过多少次这个了，真惊人。
I mean, the number of times you brought that up on the podcast Wow.
《村声》杂志现在盯上你了。
And the Village Voice are on your case.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Oh, amazing.
不过，有个人说过，彼得·帕克不是还当过英国铁路的董事长吗？大概十年前的事吧？
So Although, as someone said, I mean, Peter Parker was also he was chairman of British Rail, wasn't he, in, like, ten years?
他后来和雪莉·威廉姆斯走到了一起。
So He was went out to Shirley Williams.
雪莉·威廉姆斯在牛津上学的时候，就对彼得·帕克有意思。
Shirley Williams had a crush on Peter Parker when they were at Oxford.
所以，是这样。
So yeah.
我们现在聊的这些内容，在漫画迷眼里，被称为漫画的黄金时代。
So we're now coming so the stuff that we're talking about in the first half is known by comic book enthusiasts as the golden age of comics.
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