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我当时以为自己已经离开了塔楼，正启程前往勃艮第。
Me thoughts that I had broken from the tower and was embarked to cross to Burgundy.
那是莎士比亚戏剧《理查三世》里的克拉伦斯公爵。
That is the duke of Clarence in Shakespeare's play, Richard the third.
当时他被关押在伦敦塔里。
At the time, he is immured in the Tower Of London.
他很快就会被淹死在一大桶马姆西甜酒里。
He's very soon going to be drowned in a butt of Marmsley.
在梦里，他看到一个可怕的景象：自己的弟弟理查——未来的理查三世——把他推下船，他在海里挣扎下沉，景象极其恐怖。
And in his dream, he has this terrifying vision of being pushed off the ship by his younger brother, Richard the future, Richard the third, terrible visions as he drowns beneath the sea.
不过，多米尼克，我们会在新年的一期节目里详细讲理查三世的传说与真相，还有公主和塔楼那些事。
But, Dominic, we will be coming to Richard the third, the myth, the reality, the princess and the tower, all that kind of stuff on a show, in the New Year.
但眼下，我想重点说说这句话，我为什么选它，是因为你怎么可能从英格兰坐船去勃艮第。
But for now, what I want to focus on in that quote, why I chose it, is how you can get a ship from England and cross to Burgundy.
毕竟，勃艮第
Because, of course, Burgundy
是的。
Yeah.
它不在海岸边上。
Isn't on the coast.
你不可能乘船去第戎。
You can't sail to diesel.
这根本不可能。
It's not possible.
完全不可能。
Absolutely not.
那这里到底怎么回事？
So what is going on here?
但那是勃艮第啊。
Well, but it's Burgundy.
勃艮第，对吧？
It's Burgundy, isn't it?
真奇怪，又挺有意思的。
So strange and interesting.
我记得第一次了解到勃艮第的时候。
So I remember first coming across Burgundy.
我当时在我祖父家，他那儿有一大堆旧的百科全书，皮面装订的那种历史类百科。
So I was at my grandfather's house, and he had this huge pile of old encyclopedias, kinda leather bound encyclopedias of history.
我那时候有点无聊，就随便翻着看，那些书都特别老。
And I was kinda bored, and I was flicking through them, and there was a picture taking up they were they were incredibly old.
应该是维多利亚晚期或者爱德华时代的版本。
They're kinda late Victorian or Edwardian.
有一页整页都是幅蚀刻插图，画的是约翰无畏和他那位法国对手在桥上会面谈判的场景。
There was a picture taking up the whole page and engraving, and it was engraving of this meeting on a bridge between, who is it, John the Fearless and his kind of French rival and having a parley.
而约翰无畏马上就要被杀害了。
And John the Fearless is about to be butchered to death.
我当时心想，天哪。
And I I thought, oh my god.
这真是太神奇了，你知道的。
This is, you know, this is amazing.
甚至在我九岁或十岁的时候，
Even at the age
我就看出这简直像《权力的游戏》一样的故事，一场精彩的肥皂剧。
of sort of nine or 10, I could see this was this incredible Game of Thrones style story, this great soap opera.
在深入之前，我们得先说清楚我们在谈什么。
I think before we get into that, we should explain what we're talking about.
但很多人，
But there's lots of people
我读的时候根本不知道勃艮第是什么地方。
didn't know when I read it what Burgundy was.
明白了。
Okay.
所以，咱们说说吧，十四世纪末到十五世纪的勃艮第，可不只是现在法国的那个勃艮第地区。
So should we should let's just so the fourth the late fourteenth, fifteenth century, Burgundy is not just the French region of Burgundy now No.
但当时这片广袤的领地一直延伸到北海，涵盖了如今比利时、荷兰等大片区域。
But this great agglomeration of territories that goes up to the North Sea and incorporates much of what's now Belgium, Holland, The Netherlands, all that.
这可以说是历史上一个巨大的‘如果’——它本可能通过一场非凡的国家构建过程，诞生一个新的王国。
And it's one of the great what ifs of history because it's an incredible process of state building that could well have seen, you know, a new kingdom
如果勃艮第真的成为一个独立国家，对世界来说反而是场悲剧，你不觉得吗？
emerge between tragedy for the world that Burgundy exists as a country, don't you?
而且我想，莎士比亚时代它已经瓦解了，就在十五世纪末。
And the mem and I guess the fact that Shakespeare is talking so it it collapses at the end of the fifteenth century.
但即便到了十六世纪末，莎士比亚还在提及它。
But still at the end of the sixteenth century, Shakespeare's talking about it.
它出现在《理查三世》和《李尔王》里。
So it's there in Richard the third, in king Lear.
考狄利娅在法国国王和水乡勃艮第的君主之间做选择。
Cordelia has the the the choice between, you know, the kings of France and the kings of waterish Burgundy.
之所以叫‘水乡’，是因为那里遍布运河和堤坝，是低地国家的特征。
And it's waterish because, you know, it's the canals, the dikes of the low country.
这是一个非常精彩的故事，我觉得在英国可能没多少人知道，但其实英国人和法国人、勃艮第人一样，都是这场大戏里的关键角色。
So it's an incredible story, a story that is, I I think, not widely known in England, but it should be because the English are key players in this drama together with the French and the Burgundians.
最近出了一本从弗拉芒语翻译过来的书，你特别喜欢，对吧？
And it's the subject of a recently published book translated from the Flemish that you absolutely loved, didn't you?
是的，我特别喜欢。
I did.
我对历史类书籍情有独钟。
History I love
年度最佳历史读物。
books of the year.
巴特·范卢，如果我没念错的话，书名叫《勃艮第人》。
Bart van Loo, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, The Burgundians.
那真是个精彩的时代。
A fantastic time.
这对我们的播客来说，是个特别令人兴奋的时刻。
A very exciting moment for the podcast.
我们请到了巴特·范
We have Bart van
卢来到现场。
Loo here with us.
谁能想到呢
Well, who'd have thought
啊？
it?
你好。
Hello.
这真是个绝妙的开场。
What a tail up for the books.
你好，巴特。
Hello, Bart.
没错。
Yes.
我现在正在跟
I'm talking to
你从旧佛兰德斯地区连线，离罗斯堡战役不远，离伊珀尔和布鲁日也不远。
you from the old county of Flanders, not far away from the battle of Roseburg, not far from Ypres and Bruges.
所以，这里确实是跟你聊法国勃艮第的合适地方。
So it's it's the right place to talk to you about Burgundy in France.
巴特，你能来真是太好了，我觉得你应该是我们第一位比利时嘉宾。
Well, Bart, it's brilliant to have you on because I think you are you you you're our first Belgian guest.
我们第一位勃艮第嘉宾。
Our first Burgundian guest.
不过我们更愿意把你当作一位勃艮第人，这正是我们的想法。
But that's how I like that's how we prefer to think of you, as a Burgundian.
那我们能不能先从巴里·格罗根的问题开始？他是节目的老朋友，问得特别直接：勃艮第公爵究竟是谁？他们是什么人？
So could we could we kick off with a question from Barry Grogan, very much a friend of the show, who asked very simply, who and what are the dukes of Burgundy?
我对他们有点模糊的印象，好像跟圣女贞德被俘有关。
I have vague memories of them perhaps being involved in the capture of Joan of Arc.
没错，是这样吧？
And, I mean, that's right, isn't it?
我们稍后再聊 Joan of Arc
We'll come to Joan of Arc perhaps
到时候再说。
later.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
不过首先
But just
一开始，那些勃艮第公爵到底是谁？
to begin with, who are the dukes of Burgundi?
这事儿是怎么回事
How is it
他们是怎么建立起这个新王国的？
that they're able to almost to construct this new realm?
对。
Yes.
也许我们从最基础的开始说起。
Maybe let's start very from the basics.
我们来看看中世纪末期的欧洲地图。
Let's let's take a look at the map of Europe at the end of the the Middle Ages.
在欧洲大陆上，我们能看到两大势力。
And on the continent we see two powers.
一个是法兰西王国，另一个是神圣罗马帝国。
We see the French Kingdom and we see the Holy Roman Empire.
两国之间有一条边界，恐怕会一直延续下去。
And between the two there's a border likely it's gonna rest forever.
而在北方，我们则存在着。
And we in the North we exist.
我们有佛兰德斯、布拉班特、泽兰和荷兰，但要么我们属于法国，要么就属于德国——也就是神圣罗马帝国。
We have Flanders, we have Brabant, we have Zealand and Holland, but either we belong to France or either we belong to say Germany, the Holy Roman Empire.
可谁也没想到，在十四、十五世纪，突然冒出了一个新国家，夹在这两大势力之间。
And then nobody saw it coming in the fourteenth, fifteenth century.
这个国家是那些被遗忘的勃艮第公爵们一手缔造的成果。
See come there is the how do you say it the apparition of a new state between those two superpowers and that is the fruit of the labor of those forgotten dukes of Burgundy.
这简直不可思议。
And it's incredible.
换个说法，我现在四十岁。
Just to put it in another way, I am 40.
我是个说荷兰语的比利时人。
I am a 40 year old Dutch speaking Belgian.
如果没有勃艮第公爵们，我就无法被理解，因为他们创造的正是低地国家，也就是尼德兰。
I am inexplicable without the Dukes of Burgundy because what they created is the low countries, the Nederlanden.
那里正是后来比利时和荷兰的摇篮。
It's it's it's it's a cradle of what become further on Belgium and and and The Netherlands.
而且众所周知，比利时分成了说弗拉芒语的人群。
And and famously Belgians, you know, Belgium is divided between Flemish speakers.
对。
Yes.
还有说法语的人群。
And French speakers.
我想，这也正是勃艮第公爵们留下的遗产。
And that, I guess, also is a legacy of
没错。
Yes.
当然没错。
And it of course, it is.
他们在比利时、荷兰、法国和英国的国家历史中，一直被忽视了。
And and it it they have been overlooked in national history, in Belgium, in Holland, in France, in England.
《每日电讯报》还真的发过一篇电讯。
The Daily Telegraph, they put a telegraph.
他们给我那本书的评论加了个标题。
They put a title on the review of my book.
那个标题是我定的。
I I left the title.
我们把勃艮第人给忘了。
We forgot the Burgundians.
真是让人惊讶。
Exclamation.
但是巴特，你知道吗？
But Bart, do you know?
你听了肯定会很高兴。
You'll be very pleased to know this.
我在学校的时候就学过他们。
I studied them at school.
是吗？
Did you?
是的
Yeah.
我学过
I did.
在学校
At school.
你学过
You did.
但你那时候多大年纪？
But at at what age?
十七八岁
17 to 18.
是A水平课程吗？
A level?
十八岁
18.
是的
Yeah.
我考过A水准了。
Did them at a level.
对
Yep.
哇
Wow.
所以我是从这些资料里了解这些的？
So am I reading all about this?
我对这些都很了解。
I know all about this.
我对这些都很了解。
I know all about this.
我一直在翻我的A水准笔记。
I've been going through my a level notes.
但你其实没那么了解，巴特。
Well, you don't know as much Bart.
我是真的在写一本关于这个的书。
I mean, I'm writing a book about it.
不是。
No.
那倒有可能是真的。
That's that's possibly true.
巴特该给你出个测试题什么的。
I mean, Bart should give you a quiz or something.
没错。
So, yes.
对。
Yes.
我会去问他。
I I will ask him
有个问题。
a question.
所以，汤姆，你会同意的。
So, Tom, you will agree.
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
我不想要测验。
I don't want a quiz.
这简直像一场糟糕的闪回，你得去写一篇关于《哈姆雷特》的论文，可你根本没复习。
This this is like this awful kind of flashback, so you have to go and answer an essay on Hamlet and you haven't done the revision.
是的，这样挺好。
Yes, it's always good.
这样很好。
It's good.
我喜欢这个。
I like that.
但汤姆，你得承认，这段地缘政治演变的历史，简直就像一部权力的游戏。
But you will agree, Tom, that this history of geopolitical evolution of the highest order in the same time, it's also a game of throne story.
讲的是宴席上的算计、战争、谋杀、通奸、私生子，还有精神分裂的国王、野心勃勃的公爵，诸如此类。
It's about banquet stakes and battles and murders and adultery and bastards and the only thing it's schizophrenic kings, aggressive dukes, go on.
唯一缺的就是龙了，但这是有原因的，因为这场真正的权力游戏，确实曾经发生过，在……
And and the only thing that is missing are dragons but for a good reason because this game game of thrones that is real that really happened in And
巴特，你说的是《权力的游戏》？
Bart, you you say game of thrones.
我的意思是，有矮人吗？
Mean, are there are dwarves?
有。
Yes.
有巨人。
There are giants.
那些盛宴简直令人难以置信。
There are kind of incredible feasts.
还有骑士团的存在。
There are chivalric orders.
得说清楚，基本上有四位公爵。
I mean and it has to be said that all four there are basically four dukes.
他们每个人都有出色的副手，而且个个都是大块头。
They all have brilliant kind of, subricades, and they're all they're all massive lads.
这事儿没法回避。
I mean, there is no getting away from it.
那我们先从第一个说起。
So let's start with the first one.
咱们从最开始讲起。
Let's go to the very beginning.
巴特，我觉得你在书里一上来就讲了英格兰历史上一个关键战役——普瓦捷战役，我们把法国人打得落花流水。
So, Bart, I think in your book, you kick off with the battle of a great moment in English history, the battle of Poitiers where we wipe the floor with the French.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yes.
这对勃艮第来说为什么重要呢？
Why does why does that matter for Burgundy?
到底是什么
What is
百年战争？
the Hundred Years' War?
对吧？
Isn't it?
咱们干脆就叫百年战争吧？
We should just Hundred Years' War?
就是爱德华三世宣称拥有英格兰王位，还有他的儿子黑太子爱德华。
That that Edward the third has claimed the English throne and his son, Edward the Black Prince.
是的。
Yes.
这就是百年战争，每个英国人都应该知道这段历史。
It's the Hundred Years' War, and normally every Englishman should know about it.
不过也许我们可以先做个计时？你有秒表吗？
But maybe we can we can do you have a stopwatch?
我试试看能不能在一分钟内讲清楚百年战争。
Maybe I can try to explain the Hundred Years' War in less than one minute.
他们重新制定了继承规则。
So they invented new game rules.
规定王位不能传给女性，这一点英国人无法接受。
The power cannot be given to a woman, and that the English didn't like.
于是他们入侵法国，先后占领了三分之一、三分之二，几乎整个王国。
And they invaded France conquered conquered one third, two thirds, almost the whole kingdom.
过了多少秒？
How many seconds?
差不多就是那样。
That was about that was about yeah.
大概是30秒。
It was about 30.
你还有多余的时间呢。
I mean, you've got you've got extra time.
对。
Yes.
走吧。
Let's go.
好。
Yeah.
走吧。
Let's go.
好。
Yeah.
我们总说百年战争，但那时候的人根本不知道自己正在打一场持续百年的战争。
Because because we talk about a hundred years war, but at that moment, people didn't were aware of that.
并不是某个英国人说：‘哦，这是第七年了。’
It's It's not that that some Englishman was saying, oh, it's year seven.
他只会对邻居说：‘咱们还得打八十三年呢。’
He said to his to his neighbor, we we we have eighty three years to come.
不是的。
No.
结果这场战争实际持续了一百一十六年。
And and at the end, it it lasted one hundred and sixteen years.
但没人敢管它叫‘一百一十六年战争’。
But nobody dared to call this war the hundred sixteen years war.
确实是这样。
It is.
听起来没那么带感。
It is not so sexy.
我们现在说的是1356年的普瓦捷战役。
We are on that battle of Poitiers in 1356.
在法国，人们早就忘了这场战役，毕竟你们赢了嘛。
In France, they have completely forgotten about it because of course you won.
你们有克雷西，有阿金库尔，还有普瓦捷。
It was Crissy, you have Agincourt, you have Poitiers.
在法国，这场战役被另一场战斗盖过了风头。
In France, they it's overshadowed by another battle.
就是普瓦捷战役。
The battle of Poitiers.
这是我第一个小测验的问题。
That's my first quiz question.
法国人说的普瓦捷战役，到底是哪一场？
Which battle of Poitiers they talk about in France?
哦，是查理·马特那场吧。
Oh, the Charles Martell.
当然，是公元732年。
Of course, 732.
他们老是提起这场战役。
They talk about that all the time.
但我们现在说的是1356年，约翰二世——真不知道他们为啥叫他‘好人约翰’，他简直一塌糊涂。
But we are in 1356 and John the Good, that's the I don't know why they called him John the Good, because he was a complete mess.
但他太冒进，带着当时欧洲最精锐的军队上了战场。
But he he is too enthusiastic and he's there with the best trained army of Europe.
这场仗他根本不可能输。
He cannot lose this battle.
可最后，我们看到英军那边，他一半的部队都开小差了。
But at the end, we see the English, the half of his army is deserting.
英军反过来把约翰二世逼得节节败退。
So the English, they are fighting themselves away to John the Good.
要是抓到他，能捞一大笔赎金。
They can ask a lot of money if they get them.
而这一刻，也是我们第一位奠基者——大胆腓力的首次高光时刻。
And then very important, it is the first moment of glory of our first founding father, Philip the Bold.
大胆腓力当时只是个孩子，才十三四岁，却像一台活体军事导航仪一样指挥作战。
And Philip the Bold is just a little guy, he's 14 years old, just about 13, 14 years old and he's transforming himself into a military GPS.
他不断提醒父亲：小心右边，提防左边，还亲手杀了不少英军，简直不可思议。
He's saying to his father look out from the right, look out, beware on the left and so he's able to kill some English soldiers, but it's impossible.
最后，到处都是断肢残臂，肚破肠流，惨不忍睹。
At the end, feet were being broken, arms chopped off, entrails spilling from open bellies.
法王身边的人越来越少，最终，他不得不向——怎么说呢——不列颠人投降了？
The group around the French king was shrinking by the minute and so at the end, he has to surrender to, can I say so, per feet Albion, as they would say?
你不能这么说。
Can't you
在这档播客里不能这么说。
can't say that on
这档播客里不能这么说。
this podcast.
是的。
Yes.
我不知道。
I don't know.
但你昨天明明上了个法语播客，可别搞混了。
But but you you you were on a French podcast yesterday and you mustn't get them muddled.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你上那个法语播客的时候，也说过这种话吗？
You would were you coming were you saying that kind of stuff on the French podcast that you went on?
是的。
Yes.
不过我们当时笑得可开心了。
But it's it's it's it's it's another but we had quite laughs.
我们刚一开始聊，就忍不住笑，因为我是个法国文化迷。
We are just starting and we laugh because in France, I'm a Francophile.
大家都管我叫法国文化迷。
I'm known as a Francophile.
但你要是上法国文化电台，可没人笑得出来。
But when you are talking on France Culture, nobody's laughing.
他们可严肃了。
It's it's they are they're very serious.
我当时去那儿，也是想让大家对历史保持热情。
So I was there just to make also we can be enthusiastic about history.
学习知识的同时，也别忘了开怀一笑，这特别重要。
It's just very important to learn things and laugh at the same time.
不过这在法国可不太常见。
But that's not very French.
所以我觉得这特别有英国味儿。
So I understand it is very English.
当我看到那些著名的记者和作家们，不只是写点短文，而是整版整版地讨论我的书时，
When I see that very famous journalists and writers are writing about my book, not just little articles, but all pages.
你看，英国人就是喜欢这种叙事性的历史作品。
So you see that English, they like the narrative history.
所以我渐渐有点儿变成英国迷了。
So I'm becoming a little bit Anglophile.
我真是
I'm so
听到这太好了。
glad to hear.
不过巴特，法国人之所以不笑，大概是因为他们当时被羞辱了——他们的国王被俘，关进了伦敦塔，还被迫支付了一笔极其高昂的赎金。
But also, Bart, presumably, the reason the French weren't laughing was because they'd been humiliated because their king had been captured, taken to the Tower Of London, and they had to pay an absolutely extortionate ransom.
这真是
It's a it's a
但正如你所说，菲利普后来被封为‘大胆者’。
But as you say, so Philip, who comes he gets given the name The Bold.
大胆者。
The Bold.
他就是大胆者菲利普。
He was But Philip the Bold.
人们称赞他的英勇。
The children his bravery.
法国的编年史家们总想找出些正面的评价。
The chroniclers in French, they searched something positive.
所以他们称他为‘大胆者菲利普’，因为他曾在战场上救过父亲。
So they named him Philip the Bold because he saved his father on the battlefield.
但他依然是法国国王的小儿子。
But then he's still the Benjamin of the French king.
那他是怎么得到勃艮第的呢？
How does he get Burgundy?
这还得归功于那场瘟疫。
And that he owes to the plague.
于是，这位勃艮第公爵也叫菲利普。
It is then the duke of Burgundy is also called Philip.
真不好意思，这部电影里的人名全都是菲利普或者约翰，太乱了。
I'm so sorry everybody They're in this movie is all called Philip or John anyway, it's a lot complicated.
不过我们可以很快跳过他，因为他死于瘟疫，没有子嗣，所以勃艮第公国又回到了法国王室手中。约翰二世说：现在我要感谢我的儿子，他在普瓦捷战役中救了我，来，这块地给你，勃艮第了！
But we can forget about him very quickly because he's killed by the plague and he has no sons, daughters so the Duchy Of Burgundy comes back to the crown of France and John the Good says: now I can thank my son because he saved me at the Battlefield Of Poitiers and he says: here, there you go, Burgundy!
所以你看，我们的第一位奠基人，真是个时代造就的人物。
And so you see that our first founding father is really a man of his time.
他的名字来自百年战争，他的领地则来自瘟疫。
His name, he owes it to the Hundred Years' War and his land to the plague.
所以，巴特，我插一句。
So, Bart, let me just interrupt you.
对。
Yes.
他被赐予了勃艮第公国。
He has been given the Duchy Of Burgundy.
对。
Yes.
勃艮第公国主要就是第戎一带。
So the Duchy Of Burgundy is basically Dijon.
对。
Yes.
就是第戎周边的区域。
It's the area around Dijon.
所以这地方是
So it's the
是葡萄酒产区。
it's the it's the wine
区域。
area.
所以在英国，我们提到勃艮第，首先想到的就是葡萄酒。
So in England, we would know that largely because of wine.
我来接一下，因为在法国、比利时，甚至英国，一说勃艮第，人们马上会想到葡萄酒，然后是芥末。
I'm gonna jump on that because when you say Burgundy in France, in Belgium, even in England, they think wine and eventually mustard.
我们不妨深究一下，正是大胆的菲利普下令禁止在南部种植佳美葡萄，让它成了博若莱的专属品种，同时大力推广黑皮诺——这才是勃艮第真正的灵魂葡萄。
Well, let's look into that because it was Philip the Bold himself, he is banning the ghanae grape to the south it becomes the grape of Beaujolais and he's in storing the pinot noir, the quintessential grape of Burgundy.
他在1395年颁布了著名的《葡萄酒法令》，与此同时，还推动了芥末的生产改进。
And he does that in 1395 with his big Ordans du Vin and then later on at the same moment he is improving the production of making mustard.
细节我就不多说了。
I'm not going into details.
所以一提到勃艮第，你想到葡萄酒，想到芥末，就应该想到菲利普。
So if you think Burgundy, you think wine, you think mustard, you should think Philip
那位勃艮第公爵。
the Burgundy.
这可是给听众们上了一课。
That's a lesson to our listeners there.
巴特，我得说，这正是我喜欢这个主题的地方——就像你说的，虽然那时候充满了争斗、谋杀、背后捅刀子，但美食、盛宴也多得不得了。
And, Bart, I have to mean, I have to say that that is part of what I I love about this whole theme is that, as you say, I mean, there's a lot of fighting, of murdering, of backstabbing, and all that kind of stuff, but there is just so much food and treats and feasting.
简直太棒了。
It's it's it's just great.
那他是怎么当上勃艮第公爵的呢？
But so so so he gets the the title of duke of of Burgundy.
对。
Yes.
那他是怎么拿到低地国家的呢？
How then does he get his hands on the Lowlands?
是的。
Yeah.
因为他娶了佛兰德斯的玛格丽特，她是欧洲最富有的女继承人。
Because he's married to he's gonna marry Margaret of Flanders and she's the richest Harris of Europe.
更惊人的是，当时英格兰国王也想娶佛兰德斯的继承人。
And it's incredible because it was also the English king who wanted to marry Flanders.
但英国国王们在战场上总能赢，一到联姻就吃亏了
But the English kings, they always win on the battlefield but when it comes to marrying
婚姻的床榻才是关键。
The marriage bed.
勃艮第人却总是赢家。
The Burgundians, they win all the time.
时间是1369年6月。
And so it's the June 1369
大胆的菲利普，那位强大的勃艮第公爵，即将抵达根特，迎娶欧洲最富有的女继承人。
and Philip the Bold, the mighty Duke of Burgund, is coming to Ghent, is going to marry the richest Harris of Europe.
我们知道，在婚礼前他正在洗澡，还特意洒了紫罗兰香水。
And we know that just before his wedding he's taking a bath and we know that he sprinkled himself with violet perfume.
我喜欢这种细节。
I like those details.
他透过窗户，看见欧洲最显赫的伯爵和公爵们，像孔雀一样在教堂广场上昂首阔步。
He looks through the window and sees how the most illustrious Counts and Dukes of of Europe strut across the church square like peacocks.
但他知道，过几分钟他走下楼时，会成为欧洲最时髦的男人，全场都得看他的
But he knows that a few minutes later when he's going down he will show up as the best dressed man in Europe and all
姑娘们
the girls
相比之下都黯然失色，人群立刻围了上来
are male compared to them and become great crowds.
所以我特别喜欢描述这个场景，这真的特别重要，简直就像
So I'm I like to describe that and so it's it's it's it's it's it's very important it's like
你书里提到的，中世纪的硅谷
you say in your book you say the Silicon Valley of the Middle Ages.
没错，就是这个
Yes, is that.
那是欧洲最富有的地方
It's the richest country of Europe.
那到底是什么让它这么富有呢？
So what is it that makes it so rich?
因为它是
Because it's the
当然，羊毛纺织业，我们从英格兰进口羊毛，这非常关键。
wolf cloth industry, of course, that we get the wool of England, very important.
而且当时还出现了人口激增。
And there is a demographic boom.
我举几个数字：大约在1300年，离我住的地方二十公里的伊珀尔，就有三万人；布鲁日有四万五千人。
I just give some figures in about 1,300 there are in Iper, 20 kilometers from where I live, there are 30,000 people living there, in Bruges 45,000.
根特几乎有七万人。
In Ghent almost 70,000.
而与此同时，阿姆斯特丹才刚有一千人左右。
And just to make it very clear at the same moment in Amsterdam, there are only just 1,000 people living in Amsterdam.
所以我特别喜欢讲这一点。
So I like a lot telling this
我的意思是，在荷兰，当时北欧地区比它更大的城市，只有巴黎。
mean, as in Holland So the only the only city in in in Northern Europe that's larger is Paris.
我的意思是，这些城市都比伦敦大。
I mean, you these are these are larger than London.
对。
Yes.
但也就巴黎一个而已。
But it's only it's only Paris.
法国其他地方都是空荡荡的。
The rest of France is empty.
那我们这边有什么呢？
And what do we have?
根特、布鲁日和伊珀尔。
Ghent, Bruges and Ypres.
这几个城市挨得特别近，走一天就能从一个到另一个。
It's it's just one day walking away, city from the other.
所以它们其实是连在一起的。
So it's it's together.
它比巴黎还大。
It's bigger than Paris.
但还不止如此。
But it's beyond that.
他们还拥有各种金融创新。
They're also they've got all kinds of financial innovations.
他们有法国人所说的‘老板’的雏形。
They have the the origins of what we what they've in France, they call the boss.
所以，本质上，他们在交易股票。
So, basically, they're trading stocks.
他们有行会。
They have guilds.
他们也有艺术。
They have the art.
他们不是正在发明油画吗？
They're inventing oil painting, aren't they?
是的。
Yes.
我们迟早该聊聊扬·凡·艾克，他真的很值得说一说。
We can discuss a long We should talk about Jan van Eyck at some point, think.
佛兰德斯当时财富雄厚，而菲利普大胆公爵把这些钱用得特别出色。
But it is so that there is a lot of money in Flanders and Philip the Bold, he will do amazing stuff with that.
首先，他在第戎附近建了一座修道院，叫沙莫修道院。
To begin with, he will build a monastery near Dijon called Chamot.
现在事情越来越有意思了，为了装饰沙莫修道院，他特意从北方请来了最顶尖的艺术家到第戎。
And now it's getting very interesting because to decorate Chamot he's inviting the biggest artist from the North to Dijon.
咱们说说雕塑家克劳斯·斯卢特尔，他来自哈勒姆。
Let's talk about sculptor Klaus Slooter from Harlem.
还有画家叫约翰·马洛，也得提一提。
Let's talk about painter called Joa Malwow.
这是第一次
It's the first
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马洛
Malwow.
马洛
Malwow.
没错。
That's right.
他叫这个名字我又没辙。
It's not my fault he's called this way.
不好意思。
Sorry.
就是听起来有点怪。
It just sounds.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
我是第一个被称作英格兰国王的人。
I was I was the first king of England called.
那名字挺怪的。
It was a strange name.
如果你要说的话
If you talk about
阿特尔斯坦。
Athelstan.
阿特尔斯坦。
Athelstan.
这名字没什么不妥。
Nothing wrong with that.
这名字很得体。
It's very sensible.
这是个很棒的名字。
It's excellent name.
你在说什么呢？
What are you talking about?
这名字挺
It's a
很棒的。
great name.
也许叫艾塞尔韦德。
Athelweird, perhaps.
咱们得别再请比利时人来咱们播客了，
We've gotta stop having these Belgians on our podcast,
老是贬低我们的国王。
Insulting our kings.
但那个约翰·马尔瓦尔德，可是我们所知的第一位荷兰画家。
But but those Johan Malwald, he's the first Holland painter we known.
这都要归功于勃艮第的账目记录。
Thanks to the the the the accountancy of of the Burgundi.
有一位画家叫梅尔基奥·布罗达姆，他是我们最早能叫出名字的佛兰德画家。这特别有意思，因为我两次提到‘最早’——我们正见证着比利时和低地国家艺术史的诞生。
There is the painter Melchior Brodlamm, he's the first Flemish painter we know by name and now it's very interesting because I say the first, yes two times I say the first, we are witnessing the birth of art history of Belgium and of the low countries.
但有趣的是，在第戎的低地国家地区，情况并非如此。
But not and that's very interesting in the low countries in Dijon.
这确实很有趣。
That's very interesting.
于是我们有了这些众多的艺术家。
So we have all those artists.
他们来自北方，来自荷兰、泽兰、布拉班特，还有法国。
They're coming from the North, from Holland, from Zealand, from Brabant, from France.
他们来到第戎，在那里说着各自的荷兰语、中古荷兰语，以及各自的中古法语。
They're coming to Dijon where they are talking their own Dutch, middle Dutch, their own middle French.
他们彼此交流、合作，就在那个名叫沙莫的地方，我们第一次在历史上看到，低地国家的概念活生生地呈现出来。
And they're talking and working with each other on that in that famous place called Chamot and there we see for the first time in history life in action the concept of the low countries.
亲爱的多米尼克，亲爱的汤姆，我们是在美术中诞生的，艺术的种子在这里萌芽。这个想法如此富有启发性，如此具有挑战性，我完全能理解，现在你们所有人可能都忍不住深深叹了一口气，充满兴奋。
We, dear Dominic, dear Tom, we are born in fine arts in the arts, we are born in fine arts and this is such a stimulating idea, provocative idea, that I would really completely understand that now you all heave a sigh of arousal.
一种激动的情绪。
Of arousal.
一想到这个，就让人无比兴奋，简直难以置信。
The very thought arousal of the thought of that thought because it's incredible.
在我们的历史中，艺术退居政治之后。
In our history art recedes politics.
这难道不是一个绝妙的起源观点吗？
Isn't that a great idea of origin?
确实如此。
It is.
英国可说不出这话。
England cannot say that.
嗯，不能。
Well No.
我们说不清楚。
We can't tell.
我非常乐意承认，在这一时期，低地国家无疑是文明、金融和
I'm I'm very I'm very happy very happy to concede that clearly the low countries in this period, I mean, it's the great motor of civilization, of finance, of
一切资本主义的推动力。
everything Capitalism.
没错。
Yeah.
它以一种方式极大地推动了早期现代时期的发展。
Of everything that is kinda gonna turbocharge the early modern period in a way.
而勃艮第公爵们正是这一时期的掌舵者。
And the Dukes of Burgundy are presiding over this.
比如大胆的菲利普，他成了法国最有权势的人物，因为好人约翰去世后，查理五世继位，接着是查理六世，后来他精神失常了。
So so so Philip Philip the Bold, I mean, he he he's become the most powerful figure presumably in France because, John the Good dies, you have Charles the fifth, and you have Charles the sixth who goes mad.
他觉得自己是玻璃做的，对吧？
He thinks he's made of glass, doesn't he?
是的。
Yes.
菲利普基本上成了摄政王。
And Philip basically becomes the regent.
是的。
Yes.
他其实就是国王，这么说也不为过。
He's the he's the you can say he's the king.
他就是国王。
He's the king.
他是摄政王，但掌握着全部实权，还能动用法国的财政资金。
He's the regent, but he gets all the power and he he can use the money of France and the money of France.
所以确实如此。
So Yeah.
想干什么就干什么。
Can do whatever he wants.
但查理六世有个弟弟，叫奥尔良公爵路易。
But but he he has, Charles the sixth has a brother, Louis, the duke of Orleans.
对。
Yes.
这埋下了问题的种子，对吧？
And this is seeding a problem, isn't it?
对。
Yes.
因为现在确实如此。
Because now yes.
这就是问题所在。
It's that's the problem.
因为菲利普·博尔特去世之后，正如我几分钟前提到的那位雕塑家克劳斯·施卢特，会用雪花石膏雕刻一些小雕像，那个词怎么说来着？
It's because after Philip the Bolt, we should say, when he dies, there is the sculptor that I named a few minutes ago, Klaus Schluter, who will carve in Alabasterian, how do you say that?
雪花石膏。
Alabaster.
他会雕刻那些著名的哀悼者雕像，守护菲利普·博尔特的陵墓。各位正在听的朋友们，等我们讲完，麻烦买张票去勃艮第，到美术馆里跪在那些雪花石膏小雕像前，你会亲眼看见它们仿佛活了过来，你会感受到那石头仿佛在呼吸。
He will carve some little figures, those famous pleurians who will carry the grave of Philip the Bolt and dear everybody who is listening now, please, when we are done, take a ticket to Burgundy and go to the museum of fine arts and kneel before those those little figurines of alabaster and you will see how those fixtures, how those figures they are coming to life before your eyes you will feel how the alabaster begins to breathe.
我们
We
我们会试着把这个加到我们之前发布的那个内容里。
will try and put that on there on the twist that we put out.
是的，你真该去那儿看看。
Yes, you should go there.
但接着呢，他去世了。
But then then yeah, he's dead.
约翰·无畏，他的儿子接班了，但他只是国王的孙子。
John the Fearless, his son is coming on, but he's just the grandson of the king.
他不再是儿子了，所以离实权很远，真正的权力现在转移到了疯王的弟弟——奥尔良的路易手里，他为了夺回权力，会杀了约翰，这就是1407年发生的事。
He's not the son anymore, so he's far away from real power and the real power now is going to the brother of the mad king, Louis of Orleans and he's gonna kill him to be in power again and that's what's happening in fourteen o seven.
所以约翰是策划了这一切，对吧？
So John John organizes that, doesn't he?
他组织了一群杀手，接连下手。
He organizes a a sort of hit hit series of hitmen.
他们拿着斧头袭击了路易。
They attack they attack Louis with axes.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
巴特，还有一个细节，约翰怀疑路易·奥尔良和他妻子有染。
But isn't there also a detail, Bart, that John thinks that Louis of Orleans is sleeping with his wife.
对吧？
Isn't that right?
没错。
Yes.
但这只是流传的一个谣言，真假难说。
But that's that's a rumor that is running.
我们不知道是不是真的，但这一点很有趣，因为它让这些公爵和国王变得有血有肉了。
We don't know if it's right, but that's very interesting because those it makes those dukes and those kings and the first times those dukes, people of flesh and blood.
这个故事里出现了很多女性。
There are a lot of women in this story.
通奸的事可不少。
There's a lot of adultery.
私生子也很多。
There's a lot of bastards.
我们就是喜欢这种情节。
And we like that.
当然，我们喜欢这样的故事。
Of course, we like that.
我们明白的。
We we we understand.
我们明白，因为他们经常四处奔波。
We understand because they were traveling a lot.
当然，私生子少不了。
Of course, there was a lot of bastards.
他们总是到处奔波。
They were traveling all the time.
我们能做得更好吗？
Would we have done better?
这个问题很难回答，对吧？
It's a hard to answer that question, isn't it?
我肯定早就出家当修士了，所以……
I'm sure I would have been in monastery, so
大概吧。
probably Yeah.
也可能不会。
Or maybe not.
谁是
Who is
你肯定会的。
You definitely would.
所以约翰，那个‘恐惧者’约翰，他的外号就是这么来的，对吧？
So so John the so John the Fearless, and he gets his name, doesn't he?
因为他确实参加过一次十字军东征，那是一场惨败，本想阻止土耳其人攻占君士坦丁堡。
Because he's actually been on a crusade, a disastrous crusade to try and stop the Turks from Yes.
阻止土耳其人拿下君士坦丁堡。
From capturing Constantinople.
他亲眼看着。
He watched.
他就在那儿看着，眼睁睁看着别人都被杀了吗？
He watched, didn't he, while everybody else was killed?
太惨了。
It's horrible.
而且我们得说，这其实是一场欧洲联军，他是统帅，也是英格兰方面的指挥官——我们还得提一提英格兰人，他们答应出兵，结果根本没来。
And we should say that it's it's a kind of European coalition and he is the leader, the military leader and the English, because we have to talk also about the English, they promised to come, they didn't show up.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
只要有点理智的举动就行。
Well, with just sensible behavior.
就是那种
Just sort
思维方式，你知道，我们
of thought, you know We
早就知道会出问题。
knew it was gonna go wrong.
结果果然搞砸了，但他却落下了个‘无畏的让·皮埃尔’的名号。
And it does get wrong, so but he gets this name, Jean Pierre Fearless.
让·皮埃尔。
Jean Pierre.
我们经历了这么一段时期。
We've this sort of race.
我们有过勃艮第的勇敢者菲利普。
We've we've had Philip the Bold.
现在我们有无畏者约翰。
Now we've got John the Fearless.
约翰·无畏下令在巴黎暗杀了奥尔良公爵路易。
And John the Fearless commissions the assassination of Louis, the duke of Orleans in Paris.
路易留下了一个儿子查尔斯，我这样讲对吗？
And Louis leaves a son, Charles, who and am I getting this right?
希望我没把听众搞糊涂了。
And I hope this isn't confusing the listeners.
他是阿尔马尼亚克伯爵贝尔纳的女婿的儿子。
He is the son of son-in-law of Bernard, count of Armagnac.
所以这场几乎把法国撕裂的内战，其实就是阿尔马尼亚克派和勃艮第派之间的斗争。
And so this kind of, basically, civil war in France that starts to tear France apart is between the the the the Armeniacs and the Burgundians.
没错。
Yes.
就是法国的阿尔马尼亚克派和勃艮第派之间的对抗。
It's between the French called the Armeniacs and the Burgundians.
这对英国历史很重要，因为当法国陷入内乱，奥尔良派和勃艮第派相互争斗时，1415年，英格兰最强大的军事统帅亨利……
And this is important for for English history because as in as France starts to tear itself to pieces with the the army acts, the Orleanists on one side, and the Burgundians on the other, in 1415, England's most formidable military leader, Henry You
我不喜欢他。
don't like him.
你对他评价不高。
You don't rate him.
我们就不细说了，但他确实是个出色的军事统帅。
Well, we're not gonna get into that But he's a formidable military leader.
他登陆法国，又在阿金库尔取得了一场惊人的胜利。
Lands in lands in France and wins a a another stunning victory at Agincourt.
没错。
It is.
所以当我们谈到勃艮第时，实际上是一场法国、新兴的勃艮第势力和英格兰三方交织混战。
So this is part so when we talk about Burgundy, basically, it's a kind of three way swirl, tangle battle between the the French, this emergent Burgundian state, and England.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
所以呢
So and
因为法国当时正陷入内战，英格兰的亨利五世在阿金库尔战役后，能轻易从诺曼底推进到巴黎附近。法国国内的敌对势力意识到必须和解，于是决定在一座著名的法国古桥上召开和谈会议——那座桥如今几乎被人遗忘了。
because there is that civil war in France, the English Henry V, he can come from Normandy after Agincourt, he can easily come close to Paris and then the enemies, the internal enemies in France, they decide we have to make good, we have to make peace and they are going to organize a peace conference on the bridge, one of the most famous bridges in in in French history, also Forgotten Bridge.
地点在蒙特罗，位于巴黎以南一百公里处。
It's it's in Montereaux, 100 kilometers on the South of Paris.
法国阿马尼亚克派代表团在一侧，勃艮第派由无畏的约翰率领在另一侧。双方靠近时，无畏的约翰这位显赫的亲王竟跪下表示诚意，结果却被暗杀，就像一只毫无防备的鸭子。
And you have to see you have the French Armagnac delegation on the on one side, the Burgundians with John the Fearless on the other side, they come near to each other and then John the Fearless, he's really a great prince, he goes down on his knees and then he will be assassinated as a duck.
有人用斧头劈向他的头颅，直接砸出一个洞。
There will be the axe of trees and of France on the skull of it will create a hole.
该怎么说呢？
How do say it?
头颅上开了个洞。
A hole in the skull.
头颅上开了个洞。
A hole in the skull.
正是从这个伤口里，
And it's in that hole that That
英格兰人趁虚而入。
the English come through.
在英格兰那边。
In in in England.
我以前在某本书里读到过。
I remember that from a
就是这个层面。
level.
你真该去一趟蒙特罗。
You should go to Monterrey.
那座桥现在还在。
The bridge is still there.
不是的。
No.
这当然是一座混凝土桥。
It's a concrete bridge of course.
这一点非常关键。
And then and that is very important.
你得留意一块很小的指示牌，上面写着：勃艮第公爵于1419年9月像狗一样被杀，字很小，很容易错过。
You have to look for just a little signboard saying that the Duke of Burgundy it's just very little that he was killed as a dog in September 1419.
当你读完那块小牌子，低头一看，才发现自己正站在拿破仑巨大的骑马雕像的阴影下。
So you you you and when you get back at your feet after reading that little board sign, you realize that you are standing in the shadow of a huge, equestrian statue of Napoleon.
法国的历史，一页纸就概括了。
France summarized in one page.
这下你明白了吧。
Well, there you go.
真有法国味儿。
So French.
真有法国味儿。
So French.
关键在于，人们认为是这个人策划了无畏的约翰遇刺案，没错。
Is it not important that that the person who is seen to be behind this assassination of John the Fearless Yes.
这简直就像黑手党式的阴谋。
And it's kinda like a mafia sequence.
奥尔良公爵已经被杀了。
So the duke of Orleans has been murdered.
现在无畏的约翰也遇害了，但背后被指认为主谋的是王太子，查理六世的儿子，没错。
Now John the Fearless has been murdered, but the person who is seen as being behind it is the Dauphin, the son Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他当时就在现场。
He's present.
他就是
The the
法国国王查理六世的继承人。
of Charles the sixth of France, the the heir to the French throne.
因此，在约翰·无畏被刺杀后，勃艮第人将责任归咎于法国王室。
And so the Burgundians, in the wake of John the Fearless' assassination, blame the French monarchy.
而与此同时，亨利五世作为另一位国王，正等着接掌王位。
And there is an alternative king in the form of Henry the fifth waiting to take over.
没错。
Right.
停一下，汤姆。
Stop, Tom.
制片人两分钟前刚提醒我，该切广告了。
The producer told me two minutes ago, take take us into a break.
你讲得太久，把节奏打乱了。
You derailed that by talking too much.
那我们现在先插一段广告休息一下。
So we're now gonna take a break to have some adverts.
不过，当然了，如果你是我们的会员
Although, of course, if you're a member of
《不安分历史俱乐部》的会员可享受不了这些广告。
The Restless History Club, won't be getting the adverts.
这个俱乐部的会员资格简直太划算了，对吧，多米尼克？
And what insane value that that membership of that club is, isn't it, Dominic?
多少钱来着？
What is it?
每月六英镑。
£6 a
每月六英镑？
a month a month?
太便宜了。
Cheap.
我的意思是，这点钱根本不算什么。
I mean, that's nothing that
这都不重要。
matters.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是我们俱乐部的广告。
That's the advert for our club.
对。
Right.
我们现在进入广告时段，然后
We're going into the break, and
接着巴特会回来，和我们聊聊一位非常有趣的人物——好人菲利普。
then Bart will come back, and he will talk to us about a very exciting man, Philip the Good.
欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
除非汤姆又把话题带偏了，否则我们今天要讲的是勃艮第人。
Unless Tom derails this again, we are talking about the Burgundians.
我们已经讲完了大胆菲利普和无畏约翰。
We have seen off Philip the Bold and John the Fearless.
接下来是第三位，好人菲利普。
So we're now on to number three, Philip the Good.
时间大概是1419年，巴特·范·卢，这位‘勃艮第先生’，堪称勃艮第人的爱德华·吉本，将为我们详细讲述这段历史。
We are in, what, 1419, and Bart van Loo, the mister Burgundy, the Edward Gibbon of the Burgundians, is going to take us through it.
那么，好人菲利普，你在书里把他描述为一个情欲狂。
So Philip the Good, he's you describe him in your book as an erotomaniac.
对，确实是这样。
I was like, yes.
我们一直都很喜欢那种对爱情痴迷的人。
We always like erotomaniac.
这一章的标题是“性”。
Sext is the title
就是这一章的标题。
of that chapter.
26个私生子。
26 bastards.
26个是官方统计的数字。
26 bastards, but it's that are the the official numbers.
不过非官方估计，我觉得应该有73个。
So unofficial unofficially, it should be 73, I think.
但正如我之前说的，他经常出门旅行。
But he was traveling a lot as I said before.
那几乎和次数差不多了。
That's almost as many times.
旅行就会这样吗？
Is that what happens if you travel?
你之前已经提过旅行了。
Is that I mean, you've mentioned traveling already.
这到底跟旅行和私生子有什么关系？
Is this just a sort of what is this about traveling and bastards?
也就是说，这难道是不可避免的吗？
I mean, is that just an inevitability?
我一点都不会等。
I don't wait a bit.
但要是公爵和他妻子彼此很少见面，你该怎么解释呢？
But how could you explain if they they didn't show each other very much, the the duke and his wife and the
每个贸易场合都有个女孩，但——
girl in every trading But
我得说，我妻子昨天给我打了电话，说我正在佛兰德和荷兰的剧院巡演勃艮第剧目，她说：‘巴特，我不想去打扰你做什么，但你现在和伴侣到处跑，真够频繁的。’
I have to say that my wife she called me yesterday and I'm doing a Burgundian Tourne now in Flemish and Holland Dutch theatres and she said Bart, I don't want to bother what you're doing but you're traveling a lot now with your partner.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
哦，别提那些让人警觉的词了。
Oh, Don't those dread those those telltale words.
好吧。
Okay.
所以巴特，如果他四处出轨、生下那些私生子，为什么还被称为‘好人菲利普’呢？
So Bart, if going around cheating on his wife and having those bastards, why is he called Philip the Good?
他听起来就像‘好人菲利普’，‘好人菲利普’。
He sounds Philip the Good, Philip the Good,
我们称他为‘好人菲利普’，那是好几百年以后的事了，这种叫法是后人回望时才加上的标签。
that is very it's it's centuries later that we call it Philip the Good, so that's it doesn't because it's that's a posterior way of seeing things.
但你得想象一下，当时的菲利普才二十三岁，人在根特的普林西霍夫，突然听说一位主教登门求见，说你父亲在蒙特罗桥被人杀害了。当时他正和妻子米歇尔——法国王太子的妹妹——在一起，两人一听当场晕倒，根本无法接受这个事实，完全不明白怎么会发生这种事。你想想，他娶的是法国王储的亲妹妹，而这位王储正是下令在蒙特罗桥下手杀他父亲的人，以后家族聚会还怎么开？
But we have to imagine Philip the Good, he's 23 years old, he's in Ghent, in the Princeton Hof and then he hears about it, it's a bishop, he's knocking on the door, he says your father is being killed in the Bridge Of Montereau and he's there with his wife, his wife Michel of France and they faint, they can't accept what is what happened, they can't understand what happened and you should know that he's married to this Michelle of France and that she's the sister of the crown prince who commended the murder on the Bridge Of Montereau just if you imagine what those family parties are gonna be afterwards.
等他醒过来，第一件事就是冲着妻子大喊：米歇尔，你哥哥杀了我父亲！
An easy And when he comes to, when he wakes up after being fainted, the first thing he cries, he's screaming to his wife, he's yelling: Michelle, your brother killed my father!
这听着像莎士比亚写的剧本，但这是真实发生过的事。
Well it is Shakespeare but in real life.
现在，重担落在了他肩上。
And now it's up to him.
他后来举办了最奢华的宴会和比武大会，成为低地国家最重要的奠基人，创立了金羊毛骑士团，就是这位‘好人菲利普’，六百年后，他的名字还登上了书籍的封面。
He who will organize the most inquisitive banquets and tournaments, who will be the most important founding father of the low countries, the man who will create the golden fleece, Philip the Goode, the man who six centuries later will make it to the cover of a book.
真正的名声。
True fame.
真正的名望。
True fame.
这非常好。
That that's very, very good.
非常出色。
Very good one.
干得漂亮。
Well done.
我们来看一看菲利普好人，能不能分两部分讲？
So so looking at Philip Philip the Good, can we do it in in two parts?
首先，我们能不能谈谈他参与百年战争的事？
First of all, could we look at his engagement in the Hundred Years' War?
是的。
Because Yes.
没错。
Yes.
正如巴里·格雷戈里安所说，这一段讲的是圣女贞德的故事，英国人应该会很感兴趣。
As Barry Gregorian said, you know, this is this is the Joan of Arc sequence, and it's so it's probably something that people in England would be interested in.
接下来我们可以看看他的排场——比武大会、侏儒、骑士精神，这类东西。
And then could we look at the splendor, the tournaments, the dwarves, chivalry, all that kind of stuff.
对。
Yes.
我们稍后再谈这个。
So we'll come to that.
但在那之前，约翰·无畏被刺杀后，好人菲利普签署了特鲁瓦条约。
But first of all, so so in the wake of, John the Fearless's murder, Philip the Good signs the Treaty of Trois.
这简直就是背叛，背叛，正如那句——
The treachery, treachery, as the as the No.
不对。
No.
直到今天人们还是这么说。
Still still say today.
不对。
No.
作为与法国合法国王亨利五世达成的明智和解。
As a sensible rapprochement with the rightful king of France, Henry the fifth.
对。
Yes.
现在你可以加入一些号角声了。
And now you can you can put you can put some trumpets.
这是有可能的，因为亨利五世将在查理六世去世后迎娶他的女儿凯瑟琳，并继承法国王位，而亨利五世心里早就在暗自得意了。
It's possible because Henry the fifth will marry Catherine the daughter of king Charles the sixth after the death of whom he will be the next king of France, and read the fifth laughed up his sleeve.
他花了三年时间征服诺曼底，如今却在一天之内，法国就自动送到了他面前，所以现在你真该加点英格兰的号角声了。
He had spent three years of conquering Normandy and now in one day France is being dropped in his lap in his in his it's so you should you should put some English trumpets now.
好的。
Okay.
杰克，我们可以加点英格兰的号角声。
Jack Jack, we could have some some some English trumpets.
于是勃艮第人基本上站在英国一边，加入了百年战争，而疯王查理六世去世了。
So the Burgundians entered the the Hundred Years' War basically on the English side, and Charles Charles the sixth, the mad king, dies.
他的儿子查理七世被剥夺了继承权，被迫退到卢瓦尔河以南。
His son, Charles the seventh, has been dispossessed and basically gets pushed south of the Loire.
他拼命挣扎，只想保住这片残存的法国领土。
And he he's he's desperately struggling, you know, to to to to keep a kind of a hold on this kind of rump of France.
就在这时，一个女巫出现了。
And it's at this point that a witch appears.
是的。
Yeah.
绝对是女巫。
Definitely a witch.
是个女术士。
A sorceress.
女术士。
A sorceress.
一个被后世称为圣女贞德的邪恶女巫。
An evil sorceress known to posterity as Joan of Arc.
圣女贞德。
Joan of Arc.
所以没错。
So that's yes.
对。
Yes.
贞德靠着她的通灵法术。
She's she's So Joan of Arc with her her necromantic powers.
汤姆、巴特，你们来讲这个故事。
Tom, Bart, tell the story.
不好意思。
Sorry.
不好意思。
Sorry.
但我
But I
我只是希望你能对这件事这么兴奋。
just want I just want you so excited about it.
但我就是希望他停不下来，巴特。
But I just want he can't stop talking, Bart.
对。
Yes.
所以简，简她
So so Jane of Jane of
阿尔救了奥莉尔，让她躲过了英军的进攻。
Arc saves Allure from the English attack.
后来，她被勃艮第人俘虏了。
And then in due course, she gets captured by Burgundians.
那
What's the
勃艮第人干什么呢？
Gundians doing?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我没必要说什么。
I don't have to say anything.
巴克和
Bark and
走吧。
leave.
我的意思是，对。
I mean Yes.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
不好意思。
Sorry.
我知道。
I I know.
我有点激动。
I'm getting excited.
但我想说的是，她从多雷米前往希农，展开了一场恢弘的历史之旅，去说服法国国王，让他把军队的指挥权交给她。
But but I I have to but what I what I like to say is that she's doing that that enormous gigantic historical trip from Don Remy to Chinon where he will convince the French king that he will give the military lead of his army to her.
这太不可思议了。
It's incredible.
这事儿我们根本没法理解。
It's something we can't understand.
这简直是个传奇。
It's a story.
你怎么说这是个传奇故事？
How would you say it's storytale?
不知道。
Don't know.
这简直是个童话。
It's a fairy tale.
很难想象她真的做到了，还成功收复了奥尔良——那是法国人一直念念不忘的地方，现在法国又有了齐默。
It's incredible to understand and she is doing that and then she will conquer Orleans that the French always talk about and now we have Zimmer in France.
在法国，这依然令人震惊，他们现在又把圣女贞德推到了最前沿。
In France he's still it's incredible but he's putting again French Joan of Arc in the first place now.
那是另一个故事了。
That's another story.
我们不谈埃里克·齐默，这段内容得从播客里删掉。
We're not gonna talk about Eric Zimmer and we should cut this out of the podcast.
别给埃里克·齐默做宣传。
No publicity for Eric Zimmer.
然后她就会拿下一切，我们都知道接下来会发生什么。
But and then she will conquer everything we know about it.
她会前往法国，参加法国国王的加冕礼，而她真的做到了。
She will go to the sacre of the king of France in France, which she realized it.
接着，查理七世正式加冕，成为新的法国国王。
And then we have Charles the seventh, he's being crowned and sacred as the new French king.
随后，正如汤姆已经提到的，勃艮第军队在贡比涅俘虏了圣女贞德，并将她交给了好人菲利普。
And then it will be, as Tom already announced, by Compiegne that the troops of Burgundy will capture Joan of Arc and Joan of Arcs will be led to Philip the Good.
这简直不可思议。
It's incredible.
你面前站着的是那个世纪最重要、最核心的两个人。
You have two of the main, the most important people of that century.
他们正面对面相对。
They are facing each other.
多亏了当时的编年史家，我们才能知道这些细节。
And thanks to God we have the chroniclers.
这些编年史家把一切都记录了下来。
The chroniclers, they tell us everything.
他们说，玛格丽特·佛兰德斯的衣服上缝了两百只松鼠。
They tell us that there are 200 squirrels in the clothes of Margaret of Flanders.
如果我们想了解什么，随时都能查证。
If we want to know anything we can check it out.
但那里，什么都没有。
But there, there's nothing.
那些编年史家对菲利普好人和圣女贞德的会面，一个字都没提。
They don't say a word about the meeting between Philip the Good and Joan of Arc.
这太不可思议了。
That's amazing.
我觉得她当时顶撞了他。
I think she she standed up to him.
我觉得她可能直接反驳了他。
I think she maybe spoke up against him.
是因为羞愧吗？
And they because of shame?
他们会不会觉得羞愧，居然把她卖给了英格兰人，眼看着她被烧死？
Do they feel embarrassed that they then sell her onto the English who burn her?
不会，我觉得他们不觉得。
It's no, I don't think so.
我觉得腓力公爵当时只在想，我能怎么办呢？
I didn't because Philip the Good, he's just thinking what can I do?
那时候他正和英格兰关系紧张，而羊毛贸易对他的经济至关重要，必须维持好与英格兰的经贸往来。
And he is having trouble with England again at that moment and for the wool cloth industry it's so important that the relations, the economic relations with England are fine.
不，太好了！
No, excellent!
那该怎么说呢？
So it's just it's just how do you say it?
这就像卖一头牛一样。
We call it it's like selling a cow.
就这么把贞德卖给了英格兰。
It just sells Joan of Arc to England.
我们知道英国人是反派，因为烧死贞德的就是英国人。
And we know the England's are the bad guys because it's the English people who burnt Joan of Arc.
嗯，我觉得
Well, I
我不觉得是这样，我的意思是，你觉得
don't think that's I mean, think they
就是他们干的。
They did it.
就是他们干的。
They did it.
别激动，巴特。
Calm down, Bart.
我的意思是
I mean
你知道他们为什么这么做吗？
And do you know why they did it?
他们只是，但她其实
They just But she's
是个女巫。
a witch.
你觉得这
Think this is
是个女巫。
a witch.
这很明显。
Pretty straightforward.
因为他们想，但她根本不是女巫。
Because they want but it isn't a witch.
就连腓力国王都不觉得她是女巫。
Even Philip the God didn't think she was a witch.
他根本不会去想什么巫术的事。
He he doesn't think about witchcraft.
她就像是十五世纪的格蕾塔·通贝里。
She's kind of the Greta Thunberg of of the fifteenth century.
对。
Yes.
某种程度上是这样。
In in some kind.
所以英格兰人会烧死她，只是为了证明那个帮法国国王登上王位的是个女巫。
And and so the English, they will burn her just to prove that it's a witch who helped the French king to his throne.
这纯粹是政治问题。
It's only about politicals.
这就是全部真相。
It that's that's everything.
而且这也正是
And and that's
如果你受不了高温，就别插手政治。
if you if you can't stand the heat, don't meddle in politics.
我的意思是，听众得注意，这明显是比利时人的视角，所以别太当真。
Well, I mean, I I think listeners should be warned that that, of course, is very much a a Belgian perspective on and therefore, necessarily to be taken entirely seriously.
所以这位女巫——也就是圣女贞德——被烧死了，但接下来英格兰就倒霉了，因为勃艮第人在1435年背信弃义，倒向了法国。
So this witch is so Joan of Arc the witch is burnt, but then it all goes wrong for England because the Burgundians treacherously jump ship in in in 1435.
他们撕毁了与英格兰的条约，转而投靠法国。
They go back on their treaty with England and sign up to France.
对。
Yes.
这基本上就注定了英格兰再也无法保住
And That essentially dooms England, the the possibility of England holding
在法国的势力。
on to France.
这也差不多标志着百年战争的终结。
And that that's the end of the it's it's the it's almost the end of the hundred years war.
没错。
Yeah.
我们稍后再说1453年的事。
We'll follow in 1453 a little bit later on.
但确实如此。
But it's right.
这标志着英国在法国势力的终结。
It's the end of the English power in France.
而这一点，法国人却忘了，因为他们总在谈论勃艮第人的背叛。
And that's what the French forgot, because they always talking about the the tree, the treason of the Burgundians.
可十五年后，菲利普·德·古特却不再提这事了。
But fifteen years later, Philip de Gouti is forgetting about it.
他把英国人彻底赶出了国境。
He throws the English outside of the country.
所以他考虑的，是权力。
So he's thinking about power.
这是一种典型的、为夺权而不择手段的现实主义做法。
It's what we call cynical way of trying to get in power.
所以他来回穿梭于法国和英国之间，同时削弱这两股势力。
So he's he's moving between France and England, weakening them both.
这样一来，他就能成为欧洲最有权势的人，还能把低地国家拼凑到自己的版图里。
So he could be the first man in Europe and he could go on by puzzling together the low countries.
到了这个阶段，他的领地基本上已经覆盖了低地国家。
At this point, he has this realm which basically goes from the low countries.
所以他的地盘已经扩张了不少，对吧？
So it's it's expanded, hasn't it?
基本上就是现在的荷兰、比利时和卢森堡。
It's it's basically modern day Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg
对。
Yes.
一直延伸到法国中东部一带。
Down into kind of sort of Central Eastern France, I.
也就是勃艮第地区。
E, Burgundy.
但他还拥有欧洲最耀眼的宫廷。
But he's also got the most glittering court in Europe.
他掌控着根特这样的经济巨头，
He's got these absolute economic powerhouses of Ghent
还有布鲁日。
and Bruges.
所以，他现在是不是欧洲最有权势的人？
So is he basically the top dog in Europe at this point?
是的，没错。
Oh, yes.
他确实是。
He is.
因为他正在削弱法国，也在削弱英国。
He is because he's weakening France, he's weakening England.
他被称为西方最伟大的公爵。
And he's the the great Duke of the Occidents as he is called.
他想当国王，就像他的儿子将来也想当国王一样。
And he wants to be a king like his son further on wants to be a king.
他们几乎就要成功了，差一点就实现了，但最终还是失败了。不过他确实是欧洲第一，而他就是喜欢炫耀。
They will almost one centimeter of that, they will succeed almost but they will fail eventually but he's the number one in Europe and so but that is he and and he wants to show off.
这就引出了宴会的话题。
That's now we get into the banquets.
巴特，我可以念一段你书里的内容吗？
So to Bart Bart, can I just can I just read an extract from your book
当然可以。
Yes?
我特别喜欢那段文字，还特意抄了下来。
Which I enjoyed so much so much I wrote it down.
这段话描述了一场典型的勃艮第宴会。
And this is a description of of a typical Burgundian banquet.
厨师们把香肠一串串塞进动物的肚子里，切开时，香肠像一串华丽的念珠一样喷涌而出。
The cooks stuffed bellies with strings of sausages that spurted onto the table like grandiose rosary beads when the belly was cut open.
他们用宝石装饰鸵鸟，给榛鸡穿上金灿灿的外衣，把猪肉做成鱼的形状，把猫耳朵粘在头发上，把鸡头安在兔子身上，或者用猪膀胱煮上一打巨大的蛋。
They decorated bustards with precious stones, dressed hazel grouses in golden habits, served pork in the shape of a fish, fixed a cat's ears on a hair, attached a chicken's head to a rabbit's body, or cooked a dozen gigantic eggs in pork bladders.
我的意思是，巴特，现在人们还吃这些吗？
I mean How are still eat today, Bart?
挺好的。
It's fine.
哦，真有读者试着复刻那种用猪膀胱做的巨型蛋，不过……
Oh, there there are readers who try to make those gigantic eggs in pork in in pork bladders, but
我真想去那种地方看看。
it's I would love to go to
一个这样的地方。
a place
像那样的地方。
like that.
但如果真有人愿意试试，哎——
But if somebody could could try Oh,
那一定会很精彩。
it would be amazing.
那一定会很精彩。
It would be amazing.
还有一位卡佩安人穿着亚美尼亚服饰，骑在那些塞满小香肠的烤猪身上，由四个来自品杜的匈牙利侏儒抬着。
And so there were also there was also a a capean dressed in armen, astride on those roasted pigs stuffed with those little sausages and that was carried by four Hungarian dwarves in Pindu.
明白了。
Okay.
现在说说这些侏儒。
So now the dwarves.
对。
Yes.
所以丽莎，咱们来聊聊。
So Lisa so let's get to the
给咱们讲讲这些侏儒吧。
talk us through the dwarves.
为什么对矮人这么着迷？
Why the obsession with dwarves?
我也不清楚为什么。
I don't know why.
他们是从东欧买来的，简直不可思议。
It's just it's they bought them in Eastern Europe and it's incredible.
你最早在14世纪末才看到他们出现。
You see them in in for the first time in at the end of the fourteenth century.
1430年菲利普好人结婚时就有他们，1454年野宴上也出现了，他们常被叫做汉斯。
They were going on in 1430 with the marriage of Philip the Good, then you see them also in 1454 with the banquet of the pheasant and they're and they're often called Hans.
不，汉斯其实是巨人——矮人和巨人是一对，那个巨人叫汉斯，据说他连续参加了近三四十年的宴会。
So that is no, Hans is a giant because you have a dwarf and a giant And the giant is called Hans, I think he's going on for almost thirty forty years of banquets.
所以他是个专门参加宴会的巨人。
So he's like a professional banquet And he's a giant.
对。
Yeah.
他是个巨人。
He's a giant.
而且他是那个领头的人。
And he and he's the guy who leads in
对。
Yes.
一个
An
自动化的象，是的。
automated elephant Yes.
上面有个小矮人，不是。
With with with a with a is it a dwarf on top who's No.
不是。
No.
那个不是。
The No.
君士坦丁堡教会之类的。
Church of Constantinople or something.
他有个漂亮的妻子，但事实上，那是个男人变成了女人。
Beautiful wife, but in real, it was it was a man who was changed into a woman.
没错。
So yes.
这简直太不可思议了。
It's it's it's incredible.
你还会在某个时候看到
You've also got at one point
一个地精骑着一头野猪？
a wild boar being ridden by a gnome?
是的。
Yes.
你明白我的意思吧
You see what I
我看他们都是身材魁梧的小伙子。
I see they were massive lads.
我的意思是，你
I mean You
你还能见到会喷火的孔雀，还有个巨大的派，里面挤了二十八个乐手。
get a fire breathing peacock, you get a gigantic pie with 28 musicians in it.
这确实特别有趣，我也很喜欢，但你得问一个问题。
It's it's and now that's a lot of fun and that's a lot fun I like, but you have to ask one question.
他们为什么要这么做？
Why did they do so?
这才是该问的问题。
That's the question to ask.
可为什么呢？
But why?
为了那些父母
For the parents
因为啊，我们讲过百年战争的事。
Because tell we are, we explained the Hundred Years' War.
所以英格兰和法国都衰落了，早就不是当年那个强大的样子了。
So we have the English and the France, they have become a pale become a pale copy of their ancient power.
他们筋疲力尽，几乎撑不住了。
They are tired, almost passed out.
这时候出现了权力真空，勃艮第人想填补这个空缺，但他们很清楚，自己不是国王，只是公爵。
There is a power vacuum and the Burgundians want to fill that up, but they are very well aware of the fact that there are no kings, are just dukes.
于是他们大张旗鼓地搞排场，用中世纪的奢华来装点门面，让周围所有人都只能感叹一句话。
So they jump in the vacuum with pump and circumstance with medieval bling bling so that everybody around only could say one thing.
这才叫真正的国王气派。
That is what real kings are about.
这些公爵，才真有王室风范。
Those dukes are really royal.
要是他们没留下那些盛宴和庆典的画作，我们荷兰人现在都没法儿形容什么叫勃艮第式的享乐了。
And if they hadn't made artworks of their feasts and banquets, in Dutch we should have been looking for another word to talk about our Burgundian pleasures.
在荷兰语里，我们会说‘我爸爸是个真正的勃艮第人’，意思是他特别爱吃爱喝，喜欢办宴会。
We say in Dutch, my father is a real Burgundian, and it means that he likes eating, drinking, feasting.
所以和矮人一起玩得挺开心。
So Having fun with dwarves.
对。
Yes.
这些矮人啊，抱歉，我就是想说对。
So these dwarves these dwarves just sorry to say yes.
汤姆特别喜欢矮人。
Tom loves Tom loves the dwarves.
对。
Yes.
但我得告诉你为什么。
But I'll you why.
我来告诉你。
I'll tell
我跟你说为什么。
you why.
因为当我做这个研究的时候，我读过荷兰历史学家扬·休辛格的这本名著。
Because because when when I when I did a level, I I read this famous book by Dutch historian Jan Huisinger,
这本书的英文名应该是《休辛格》。
which is in English should say Huisinger.
不好意思。
Sorry.
它英文译名叫《中世纪的衰落》吗？
Is it translated into English as the the waning of the Middle Ages.
那本书里有一整章讲矮人。
And there was a whole thing about dwarves in that.
比如多尔夫人，那位金发矮人，还有好人菲利普，他曾在宫廷庆典上被迫和杂技演员汉斯摔跤，汉斯是个巨人，那是在查尔斯·博勒的婚礼宴会上，查尔斯是菲利普的儿子；还有勃艮第的米歇尔小姐的女矮人多米娜·博格朗，她装扮成牧羊女，骑在一头比马还大的金狮上出场。
So there's Madame Dor, the blonde dwarf Philip the Good, who was made to wrestle at a court festival with the acrobat Hans, who I guess is this giant, at the wedding feasts of Charles the Bowle, who's Philip's son, madame de Beaugron, the female dwarf of Mademoiselle of Burgundy, enters dressed like a shepherdess mounted on a golden lion larger than a horse.
我的意思是，这一切都发生在同一个层面上。
I mean, it's all it's on one level.
对吧？
Isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
它就是，我
It's I I
特别古怪，但另一方面又格外壮丽。
Completely odd, but on another, kind of magnificent.
这不正是它的主题吗？难道不是在展现一种辉煌吗？
Is it well, that's what it's about, Isn't it about a display of magnificence?
正如巴特所说，这全都是关于身份地位的。
As Bart said, that's all about status.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
就是为了炫耀，让你拥有它们。
Just just to to show off, and it's so you have them.
这其实是一段微小却重要的历史。
That is it's little big history.
你会听到一些小故事，还挺有意思的。
You get little anecdotes and they are fun.
我们压根没怎么提这些事。
We are talking nothing about them.
但它反映了百年战争期间政治权力的变迁。
But it illustrates the political powers moving during the hundreds years war.
这就是所谓的微小而重要的历史。
So that's the the little big history.
《人间喜剧》三部曲，巴尔扎克的作品。
Grand petit est trois essays, Honore de Balzac.
这正是我喜欢在历史书中做的事情。
And that's what I like doing in a history book.
但还有
But there
另外一件事，巴特，你刚才稍微提了一下，就是金羊毛骑士团。
is one other thing with and you you you mentioned it very fleetingly, Bart, and that's the order of the golden fleece.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
所以金羊毛骑士团，你是在说勃艮第公爵并不是国王。
So the Order of the Golden Fleece so so you're talking about how how the duke of Burgundy is not a king.
但确实如此。
But Yes.
金羊毛骑士团后来成了整个欧洲最显赫的骑士团，对吧？
The Order of the Golden Fleece becomes the preeminent chivalric order in the whole of Europe, doesn't it?
是的。
Yes.
他在传递一个国际性的信号。
It's it's it's sent he's sending out an international message.
这是一个骑士团。
So it's a chivalric order.
人人都知道这个组织。
Everybody knows about it.
这确实是个骑士团。
It's chivalric order.
通常只有国王才有这样的骑士团。
Normally only kings have them.
他正在传递一个国际性的信号。
And he's sending out an international message.
虽然这个骑士团满是锦缎、天鹅绒和珠宝，但它的本质依然是对法国和英格兰的公然挑衅。
It was a message laden with brocade, velvet and jewels, but that made it no less heartful thumbing of the Burgundian nose at France and England.
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