14. 历史小说

但正因它如此精确，以现代小说的标准来看，就显得相当乏味了。

But it's so accurate that by the standards of a modern novel, you know, it's quite dull.

是啊。

Yeah.

比如罗伯特·格雷夫斯的《贝利萨留伯爵》，我觉得无聊透顶，读起来就像拜占庭战役的流水账。

So, Palisarius, Robert Graves' Count Palisarius, which I find incredibly boring because it just reads like a sort of Byzantine account of a campaign.

而《我，克劳狄乌斯》之所以成功，是因为原始素材本身就精彩绝伦。

Whereas, I Claudius works because the source material is so brilliant.

他基本上是在改编苏维托尼乌斯和塔西佗的著作，这些内容本身就妙趣横生。

I mean, he's basically adapting Suetonius and Tacitus, and and that is such fun.

里面有大量谋杀和堕落的描写空间，让克劳狄乌斯能以符合人物性格的方式书写。

There's such scope for kind of murder and depravity that, you know, he can Claudius can kind of write as Claudius might have done.

没错。

Yeah.

显然，格雷夫斯本人也非常推崇这种写法。

I mean, obviously, you know, he's he's very much for Graves as well.

但但但我认为《我，克劳迪乌斯》是我能想到的最成功的尝试，在小说发明之前为某个时代人物代言的作品，可以说是最经久不衰的一部。

But but but I think I, Claudius, is the most successful attempt to ventriloquize somebody from a period before the invention of the novel that I can think of, the most kind of enduring one.

在我们进入休息环节之前（你们可能该休息了），我想提一条推特内容，因为刚才谈到为某个时代代言这个话题。

Before we go to the break, which you probably should, I want to just bring up one of the tweets because talking about ventriloquizing a period.

我认为最好的例子来自一位叫Pochcott的听众留言，他问：你们如何看待乔治·麦克唐纳·弗雷泽的《弗拉什曼》系列？

I think the best example of this is come we had a message from somebody called Pochcott, and he says, do you have any time for George MacDonald Fraser's Flashman books?

我觉得《弗拉什曼》中的叙事声音堪称历史小说中最出色的叙事声音之一。

Now I think the narrative voice in Flashman is as good as any narrative voice in any historical novel.

它完美地为我呈现了一个维多利亚时代无赖会如何讲述这些战役故事。

It absolutely captures for me how a Victorian cad would tell the story of all these campaigns.

而且我认为《弗拉什曼》系列实际上是最精妙的作品。

And I think the Flashman books are the cleverest, actually.

哦，当然可能托尔斯泰之类的除外，因为它们对维多利亚帝国小说的预期进行了如此多的戏弄。

Oh, I mean, maybe Tolstoy or whatever apart because they're playing so much with your expectations of Victorian imperial fiction.

书中处理大英帝国故事时的那种模棱两可的手法非常巧妙，因为我觉得你可以随心所欲地解读那个故事。

And there's the the ambiguity of the way it treats the the story of Britain's empire is so cleverly done because you can take up that story whatever you like, I think.

但我认为这些小说很大程度上是那个时代的产物，当时人们对帝国的态度比现在简单得多。

But it is also, I think, the novels are very much products of a time where the attitude to the empire is less complicated than it is now.

我的意思是，某种程度上我在想，确实如此。

I mean, it kinda I I wonder if it would yes.

我确实这么认为。

I do.

我觉得书中使用的语言并非那种——即便有人试图模仿——

I think I I want the language in it is not the kind of language I think that that even if one was trying to ventriloquize

是的。

Yeah.

维多利亚时代的人现在必然会使用的语言。

A Victorian would necessarily be used now.

你看，汤姆，在这一点上我不同意你的看法。

You see, here here, Tom, I would disagree with you.

我认为时尚书籍实际上反映了一个时代，那时人们对帝国的态度比现在更为复杂。

I would say the the fashion books are actually reflective of a time where attitudes to empire are more complicated than they are now.

因为确实如此。

Because Yes.

好的。

Okay.

那是有可能的。

That's possible.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

弗雷泽·弗雷泽·弗莱什曼描述了所有这些英国胜利之类的故事。

Fraser Fraser Flashman describes all these sort of British victories and all the rest of it.

毫无疑问他是爱国的，弗莱什曼和他的作者都是爱国的，诸如此类。

And and there's no doubt that he is patriotic and that's and that's that that both Flashman and his author are patriotic and and and all the rest of it.

但与此同时，这些故事总是展现出剥削和贪婪。

But at the same time, the stories always show the exploitation, the greed.

弗拉什曼本人是个十足的懦夫，还是个强奸犯，他那种剥削他人的行径以及诸如此类的恶行。

Flashman himself is a terrible coward, and he's a a rapist, and he he sort of exploits people and all the rest of it.

帝国的虚伪一面被揭露无遗，与此同时它却又被大肆颂扬。

And and the hypocrisy of empire is laid bare at the same time that it's celebrated.

所以它既能享有蛋糕，又

So it has its cake and

能吃掉它。但没错，他确实既能保留蛋糕又能吃掉它。

eat I But but but, yes, he does have his cake and eat it.

所以他是个强奸犯兼种族主义者。

So he's a he's a rapist and a racist.

但如今一个强奸犯兼种族主义者角色，还能像七十年代或无论何时那样被读者接受吗？显然不能。

But would a rapist and a racist now be as acceptable to the reading public as it was seventies or whenever it was that No.

我想是因为我们更害怕这种模糊性。

Because we're more frightened of the ambiguity, I think.

因为我们希望故事非黑即白。

Because we want the hit well, the story to be to be black or white.

难道不是吗？

Don't we?

我们希望它是善或恶。

We want it to be good or evil.

现在的读者或许会觉得使用

We don't like readers now would perhaps find it more troubling to use

当前这个词

the current word.

但我认为人们对模糊性的接受度已经发生了变化并逐步演变。

But I think I think that people's people's sense of of what is acceptable with ambiguities has changed and evolved.

因此，从这个意义上说，我认为弗莱什曼正逐渐成为一种历史文物。

And so, again, in that sense, I think Flashman is is becoming a kind of historical artifact.

我的意思是，这对那些想研究过去五十年间对帝国态度变化的历史学家来说会非常非常有趣。

I mean, I think, you know, it'd be very, very interesting for historians who want to study changing attitudes to to empire over the past fifty years.

我认为这是个合理的观点。

I think, know, key That's a fair point.

关键证据。

Key piece of evidence.

还有，汤姆，你知道吗？

And also, Tom, you know what?

你现在没法在大学里教授《Flashman》系列书籍，因为其中的语言问题。

You couldn't teach the Flashman books at a university now because of the language.

所以如果你想在课程中使用它们，我的意思是，前面必须加上各种触发警告，说明所有内容以及Flashman和Raider描述它们的方式。

So if you wanted to use them in the course, I mean, they'd have to be preceded by all kinds of trigger warnings about all the material and the way that the Flashman and the Raider describes them.

无论如何，我强烈推荐它们。

Anyway, I couldn't recommend them highly enough.

说到这里，我们稍事休息。

And on that note, let's take a break.

等我们回来，如果还没被取消的话，我们将看看

And when we come back, if we haven't been canceled, we'll look at

一些推文。

some of the tweets.

欢迎回到《历史的余韵》节目。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

离别之痛不及重逢之喜，尼古拉斯·尼克尔比。

The pain of parting is nothing to the joy of meeting again, Nicholas Nickleby.

制作人写的这些台词都像幸运饼干上的箴言。

The producer writes all these sort of fortune cookie style.

所以

So

现在你是在贬低狄更斯了。

now you're dissing Dickens.

确实如此。

It's true.

你把英语文学史上最伟大的小说家贬低成幸运饼干箴言了。

You're dismissing the greatest novelist in the English language as fortune cookie.

哦，多米尼克。

Oh, Dominic.

狄更斯当然是一位历史小说家，汤姆。

Now Dickens, of course, is a historical novelist, Tom.

所以你在推特上谈论你认为最能塑造特定时期形象的历史小说，引起了不小的反响，不是吗？

So you've stirred up things on Twitter by talking about the historical novel that you think has done most to fix the the image of a particular period, haven't you?

你认为那是哪部作品呢？

And you think that is?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我认为是《双城记》。

Well, I I think that that is A Tale of Two Cities.

事实上，因为大卫·哈斯基尔对此有非常精妙的阐述。

And in fact because David Haskier actually puts this he he puts this down very nicely.

一个问题。

One question.

哪些历史小说作品对它们所描绘时期的大众认知影响最深？这种影响是积极的还是消极的？

Which works of historical fiction have influenced popular understanding of the period they portray the most, and have they done so for the better or the worse?

因此我认为狄更斯的《双城记》可能是英语世界中对人们理解某一历史时期最具影响力的小说。

So I think that Tale of Two Cities by Dickens is probably the single most influential novel on the way that people in the English speaking world understand a period of history.

因为，哇。

Because Wow.

尽管狄更斯显然借鉴了伯克的观点——伯克是第一个真正将法国大革命明确为恐怖统治的人，还有卡莱尔也在做同样的事。

Although Dickens is obviously you know, he's drawing on Burke, who is the first person to kind of really clarify the idea of the French Revolution as terror, and then Carlyle, who is is doing the same.

狄更斯以其无与伦比的天才，描绘了法国大革命这幅被鲜血浸染的画面——断头台、密探、

Dickens, you know, with his inimitable genius, portrays this image of the French Revolution as being awash with blood, as the guillotine, as tricketeurs,

妇女站在

women the front of

断头台前，囚车，贵族被砍头。

the guillotine, tumbrils, aristocrats having their heads chopped off.

但同时也有种感觉，那些贵族是多么堕落邪恶，他们罪有应得。

But but but also the the sense of of just how depraved and evil the aristocracy are and how they have it coming.

是的。

Yeah.

狄更斯确实为我们定义了法国大革命作为一种道德故事的鲜明色彩。

And the kind of stark colors of the French Revolution kind of as a morality tale is really defined for us by Dickens.

我记得1989年革命二百周年庆典时，我正好在巴黎。

And I I remember I was in Paris for in 1989 for the bicentenary of the celebration of the revolution.

我记得《世界报》采访了正在巴黎举行的七国集团会议。

Le Monde, I think, asked the g seven meeting was going on in Paris.

哦，我知道你要说什么了。

Oh, I know where you're going with this.

这是关于玛格丽特的事。

This is Margaret.

谢谢，是的。

Thanks for Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

《世界报》还询问了七国集团各国领导人对法国大革命的看法。

And and Lemond asked all the leaders of the g seven nations for their take on the French Revolution.

其中有六位领导人谈的都是人权、自由、博爱、法治这类话题。

And six of them were all about, you know, human rights and liberty and fraternity and legality and all this kind of thing.

而撒切尔夫人则表示，那场革命糟糕透顶。

And missus Thatcher said, well, it was terrible.

全是断头台、哑铃之类的血腥暴力。

It was all about the guillotine and dumbbells and things.

她显然是从《双城记》中得出这种观点的——我认为这部作品确实定义了至今英语世界对法国大革命的认知。

And she obviously got that from from Tale of Two Cities, which I think really does define the French Revolution up to this

确实如此。

day It does.

对于英语世界而言。

For for the English speaking world.

我记得小时候，大概是七八十年代的英国，有天下午看到一档儿童节目讲法国大革命。

I remember when I was a child in sort of nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties Britain, seeing a a a kid's TV program one afternoon, which was about the French Revolution.

至今仍能回忆起那些画面：满身汗渍、手掌粗糙的无产阶级子弟冲进宫殿，而那些衣着华美的宫廷侍女躲在橱柜里，最终仍被无产阶级的'猎犬'拖出来送上断头台。

And I can still remember the scenes of sort of sweaty, horny handed sons of toil bursting into a palace and all these sort of pretty ladies in waiting hiding in a cupboard while these sort of slavering dogs of the proletariat drag them out on their way to the guillotine.

这类观念显然深深植根于英美文化的想象中，构成了我们对法国传统的认知。

So this sort of stuff is very clearly deeply embedded in the kind of Anglo American, imagination and our sense of the French tradition.

所以我认同这一点。

So I buy that.

不过我有点惊讶你没提到《我，克劳狄乌斯》。

I suppose what if I'm surprised you don't mention I, Claudius.

或者你认为《我，克劳狄乌斯》过于明显地基于苏维托尼乌斯和塔西佗的著作？

Or do you think it's because I, Claudius is too obviously based on Suetonius and Tacitus?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

我认为，虽然它确实有自己的演绎，但基本遵循了苏维托尼乌斯和塔西佗描绘罗马帝国的主线。

I think I mean, I obviously, it has its spin, but I think it's going with the grain of of the way that Setonius and Tacitus portray the Roman Empire.

而且我觉得电视剧的改编无疑进一步强化了这种印象。

And I think that also, that was kind of compounded, obviously, by the the TV series.

我认为关键在于那些彻底改变、

I would I would say that the the key is is novels that have radically Altered.

重新塑造并彻底转变了历史观的小说。

Recon altered and and and transfigured it.

另一个例子是沃尔特·斯科特的《艾凡赫》，对，

So another one would be Walter Scott's Ivanhoe, which is Yeah.

背景设定在中世纪的英格兰。

Set in the the medieval England.

我认为这部作品影响深远，因为它牢固确立了中世纪英格兰关乎撒克逊人与诺曼人的观念——仿佛他们是截然不同的族群，类似种族隔离的南非，这种观念至今仍深刻影响着电影、历史小说等领域。

And I think that that's influential because that kind of really beds down the idea that medieval England is about Saxons and Normans, and that these are completely different people, and it's kind of like apartheid South Africa or something, which is still an idea that that that that is very strong in movies and this and and and historical fiction to this day.

当然，他们还把罗宾汉与狮心王理查的故事编织在一起，这种设定你依然能在《侠盗王子罗宾汉》等作品中看到。

And, of course, they weave in Robin Hood with Richard the Lionheart, which, you know, you're still getting in Prince of Thieves and all that kind of stuff.

所以我认为这部作品极具影响力。

So I think that's influential.

最后一部我认为曾具有影响力但现已式微的作品是《飘》。

And one last one, which I think has its influence is now basically dissolved is Gone With the Wind.

我认为它对人们如何看待战前南方产生了极其深远的影响。

I think that that that had a really, really seismic influence on how people saw the antebellum south.

我认为现在这种影响已经基本消散，没有人会将其视为真实的写照。

And I think that that that now they understand that that has basically dissolved, and and no one would would regard that as an authentic vision.

不过我同意你的观点，

But I agree with you that

《飘》的影响力曾持续了很长时间。

Gone influential for a long time.

我同意你的观点，《飘》确实具有极其重要的地位。

I agree with you that Gone With With The the Wind is glossally important.

不过我认为《飘》并非逆流而上，而是随波逐流。

Though I think Gone With the Wind isn't going against it wasn't going against the grain, was going with the grain.

确实如此。

Yeah.

当时美国人对内战和重建时期的记忆方式存在大量学术研究。

There were a lot of sort of scholarship in the way that Americans remembered the civil war and reconstruction.

当然，《乱世佳人》也是建立在《一个国家的诞生》的成功基础上的。

And of course, Gone With the Wind is also building on the success of Birth of a Nation.

这部1910年代的电影可以说是当时的代表作品，并确立了这一类型。

So the film in the nineteen tens that was sort of the film of its day, and established that.

我的意思是，现在看《一个国家的诞生》，会发现。

I mean, Birth of a Nation is an incredibly racist film, if you watch it now.

我过去常教这门课，说实话我不容易被震惊，但里面的内容确实相当令人震惊。

I used to teach it, and it is I mean, I'm not easily shocked, but it's pretty shock sort of shocking kind of stuff.

其实还有另一部小说，关于美国的，可以说是美国神话的，可能是《弗吉尼亚人》。

And another novel actually, talking about America, it's kind of mythology of America, might be The Virginian.

是的。

Yeah.

这是第一部西部题材的小说。

Which is the first kind of Wild West novel.

没错。

Yes.

它确实确立了西部片的模板，包括枪战、酒吧、牧场等元素，后来这些都被好莱坞所采用

And and kind of really establishes the template with shootouts and saloon bars and cattle ranching and everything that then gets picked up by the by the Hollywood and

嗯，我正想说我们正要讨论这个

Well, I was about to say we're getting into that.

是的

Yeah.

所以我觉得它们都挺好的

So I think I think they're they're good.

不过说到历史小说的准确性，你觉得它应该准确吗？

But actually, on on the topic generally of how accurate historical fiction, you know, should it be accurate?

这重要吗？

Does it matter?

我们收到Kilian Mabuba的提问：电影导演斯蒂芬·弗雷斯曾说'拍历史电影时，绝不要让事实妨碍好故事'

We've got one from Kilian Mabuba who says film director Stephen Frears once said about historical films never let facts get in the way of a good story.

你认同这种历史小说的创作方式吗？

Do you agree with this approach to historical fiction?

或者说，艺术家在处理真实历史人物或事件时，是否有责任基于事实进行创作？

Or is there a responsibility for artists to deal in facts when dealing with real historical figures or events?

多米尼克，你怎么

Dominic, what do

看？

you think?

我的观点可能会比较复杂。

So my take on that would be quite complicated.

我认为如果你在写作——比如我们以小说为例。

I think if you're writing, let's say you write let's stick with novels.

如果你在写一部关于某个历史时期的小说，我认为大体上你的责任是对小说本身负责。

If you're writing a novel about a historical period, I think by and large, your responsibility is to the novel.

所以，如果我在写一部关于萨珊波斯或奥利弗·克伦威尔护国时期的小说，我不认为我的首要责任应该是忠于史实，因为这显然是一部小说。

So you you know, if I'm writing a novel about Sassanian Persia or, you know, the the the protectorate of Oliver Cromwell, I I don't think my chief responsibility should be to the facts because it's clearly a novel.

我认为我的责任在于书籍的艺术性呈现和对读者的责任。

I think my responsibility is the artistic product of the of the book and to the readers.

我认为可能存在区别的地方在于处理非常近期的题材时。

Where I think there's a possibly a distinction is where you're dealing with subjects that are very recent.

比如书中人物的亲属可能成为读者，或者涉及某些极其创伤性的历史时刻。

So the relatives of people who were in the book are are possible readers, or it's some sort of incredibly traumatic moment.

举例来说，如果你要写一本关于大屠杀的书，显然你会考虑到对事实忠实度的期待和责任。

Say, for example, if you were writing a book about the Holocaust, you would obviously think that there's expectation and a responsibility of sort of fidelity to fact.

但我并不是那种会因《都铎王朝》里马车款式不对，或者伯纳德·康威尔改编作品中剑的类型错误而大动肝火的人。

But, you know, I I'm not one of these people who gets hot under the collar about people have the wrong carriage in the Tudors, or, you know, people are carrying the wrong kind of sword in the the sort of Bernard Cornwell adaptations.

我觉得那些细节完全无关紧要。

I mean, I think that's completely irrelevant.

毕竟那些明显是虚构作品，所以无关紧要。

I mean, they're clearly fiction, so it doesn't matter.

但当你处理像《王冠》这样最新季的剧集时，剧中人物都还健在，他们也是有血有肉的人。

But when you get to, let's say, The Crown, the most recent series where the people in it are still alive, I mean, they're human beings with lives.

他们或许富有且知名，但和我们一样都是普通人。

They might be rich and well known, but they're still human beings like the rest of us.

我认为作者应该对公平性负责，我想这个词比较合适。

I think the authors should have a responsibility to fairness, I guess is the word.

你呢？

What about you?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为即使是最敏感的话题，也有可能进行幻想创作并对事实进行艺术处理。

I I think even with the most sensitive topics, it's possible to to to engage in fantasy and to to make play with the facts.

所以我想到科尔森·怀特黑德最近的《地下铁道》，这部作品将奇幻元素编织进美国南北战争前奴隶制的故事中，效果非常出色。

So I think of recent or by Colson Whitehead, the Underground Railroad, which weaves the fantastical into the story of slavery in the the the antebellum period in the in The United States to brilliant effect.

实际上我认为这种对现实主义的痴迷，可以追溯到司各特。

And I actually think that a kind of an obsession with realism actually, you know, it's going back to Scott.

基本上，你那样做就是在写一部十九世纪早期的小说。

Basically, what you're doing then is you're writing an early nineteenth century novel.

你是在按照沃尔特·司各特的传统写小说。

You're writing a novel in the tradition of Walter Scott.

写历史小说最好的方式之一，其实是接受一个事实：对考据准确性的执着其实是相当近代的观念。

Part of of the best way to write a historical novel is actually to accept that an obsession with with with getting the facts right is actually, you know, quite a recent idea.

所以如果你写的是人们相信幽灵或神灵的时代，我觉得把这些元素编织进去完全没问题。

So that if you're writing about periods where people believe in ghosts or gods or whatever, I think, you know, I don't have any issue at all with them being woven in.

我认为这往往能为作品增添色彩。

I think that that that can often kind of add to it.

我们提到了《权力的游戏》，但我想说《指环王》实际上在某种意义上是对早期中世纪历史更具创意的回应，而非严格推敲阿提拉可能说过什么或瓦兰吉亚神做了什么。我认为，在某些历史时期，松开那些将你束缚于已知历史事实的锚链，能带来难以置信的解放感。

So, you know, we mentioned Game of Thrones, but I would say Lord of the Rings actually is, in a sense, a much more creative, response to early medieval history than a kind of rigorous attempt to work out exactly what Attila might have said or what the Varangian god did or what you you I I think that, in a sense, letting loose the kind of the the the moorings that tether you to to to to the known historical facts in certain periods of history can be incredibly liberating.

这就是为什么人们会选择读小说而非直白的历史，我想。

And that's why you would want to read fiction, I think, rather than say straight history.

同意。

Agreed.

而且我认为在我们继续之前，还存在一个危险，那就是作为小说家，你的研究可能会压垮你。

And I think there's also a danger, isn't it, before we move on, that that your research can can overwhelm you as a novelist.

我认为这确实是有些人批评希拉里·曼特尔的问题，她的研究痕迹过于明显。

And I think that's an issue that some people have actually with Hilary Mantel, that she wears her research very heavily.

书中充斥着大量关于服装、布料质地、食物种类等细节描写。

And there's an enormous amount of stuff about the clothes that they have and the right kind of cloth and the food that they're eating and all.

你能明显感受到她所做的这些研究带来的沉重感。

And you can feel the weight of all this stuff that she's done.

或许需要做些明智的删减。

And perhaps a bit of judicious cutting.

当然，她已经两度获得大奖，所以我并非在否定她的成就

I mean, not that I she's won two big surprises, so it's not

就像我需要你的肯定。

like I need your Yes.

我相信她会很感激你的建议，

I'm sure she'd be grateful for your advice,

顺便说一句。

by way.

是的。

Yeah.

感谢观看。

Thanks for watching.

我已经赢了三个。

I have won three.

但我我我同意，对于那种糟糕的历史小说家来说，你知道，最可怕的就是那种生硬的对话，比如约克公爵和他的三个

But I I I agree that that that with kind of bad historical novelists, that, you know, the the the dread is the kind of clunking speech for you mean the duke of York, his and his three

孩子要来了。他们正说着那种象征性的话，结果就跑题了。

children are coming Well, they're talking that sort of symbol just got away.

诚然，我会对你说，你知道，这类东西。

Verily, I'd say to thee, you know, all this kind of stuff.

对。

Yes.

总之，好吧。

Anyway Right.

给我

Give me

另一个问题

another question.

我们还有别的问题吗？

Do we have another question?

蒂姆·法兹比·伯尼问，我们早期的例子有哪些，蒂姆·法兹比·伯尼

So Tim Fazby Burney says, what are our early examples Tim Fazby Burney.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

他问，人们创作历史小说的最早例子是什么？

He says, what are our earliest examples of people writing historical fiction?

与记录神话或润色圣徒故事相对的那种

In contrast to, say, writing down myths or embellishing the stories of saints.

汤姆，你肯定知道答案吧

So you must know the answer to this, Tom.

嗯，我如果如果我们在谈论历史小说的话，是的。

Well, I if if we're talking about historic novels Yeah.

我是说，历史小说的话，那么它稍微，你知道，是中世纪的浪漫故事，

I mean, historical fiction, then then it comes slightly, you know, are are medieval romances, you know,

是的。

is Yes.

它们不是同一种意义上的小说。

They're not fiction the same way.

我是说，它们不是小说，对吧？

I mean, they're not fiction, are they?

所以我认为，嗯，我认为西方现代意义上的第一部小说是塞万提斯的《堂吉诃德》。

And so I I I think well, I think the the first novel in in kind of the modern West is Cervantes' Don Quixote.

关于《堂吉诃德》的一点是，他因为阅读我们称之为中世纪浪漫故事的作品而发疯。

And the thing about Don Quixote is that he's driven mad by reading what we would call medieval romance.

塞万提斯作品中的幽默在于堂吉诃德是一个不合时宜的人。

And the the the humor in Cervantes is that Don Quixote is a man out of time.

所以我们看到了一幅十六世纪西班牙的肖像，当然，对塞万提斯来说那是当代的西班牙。

So we have a portrait of sixteenth century Spain, which, of course, for Cervantes is contemporary Spain.

是的。

Yeah.

然而却有这样一位身披盔甲的男子四处游荡，把风车当作巨人等等。

And yet you have this man in armor going around, seeing giants instead of windmills and so on.

所以我认为《堂吉诃德》可以说是一部关于过去与现在之间张力的小说。

So I guess the the Don Quixote is a novel about the tension between the past and the present, you could argue.

这很好。

That's nice.

这很公平。

That's fair.

这种动态的产生源于堂吉诃德的现实感植根于历史过往，而非菲利普二世时代西班牙那种沉闷的现实。

The dynamic of it is generated by the fact that Don Quixote has a sense of reality that is rooted in the historical past rather than in the kind of the dusty reality of Philip II's Spain.

所以我想，这是一部兼具两种意识的小说。

So and it's got it's a novel with a sense of two things, I guess.

其一，是对历史进程的感知，对历史变迁的感知，就是你刚才谈到的那个层面。

One, a sense of historical process, a sense of historical change, that thing that you're talking about.

但同时，这本书也颇具后现代风格。

But it's also very, you know, post modern as a book.

因为第二卷出版时，堂吉诃德的故事已经广为人知。

Because halfway through, the second volume comes out in a world in which Don Quixote has already come out.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

那时候堂吉诃德已是家喻户晓的人物。

Don Quixote is then know, people know about him Yeah.

在故事里。

In the story.

人们会说'哦，你就是书里那个堂吉诃德吧'。

And like, oh, you're the fellow from the book, Don Quixote.

这就像是马丁·艾米斯在自己书里突然出现的那种自我指涉手法。

I mean, that's, you know, that's like sort of Martin Amos cropping up in, you know, in Martin Amos' own books.

所以，《堂吉诃德》这部小说之所以如此惊人，是因为它似乎包含了小说未来发展的全部可能性。

So, I mean, Don Quixote is such an amazing novel because it's it it seems to contain almost the entire future of of fiction within it.

是的。

Yeah.

它属于西班牙历史小说的传统吗？

And was it in in the Spanish tradition of historical fiction?

我认为它开启了一种比我们更为嬉戏的现实关系，因为我们是沃尔特·斯科特的继承者。

It it opens up a kind of much more, I think, playful relationship to reality than we have because we're the heirs of Walter Scott.

在英语传统中，我们被严格束缚于必须准确无误地呈现事实的观念。

So in the in the Anglophone tradition, we're absolutely nailed to the sense we've gotta get the facts right.

但在西班牙，我想到的是墨西哥小说家卡洛斯·富恩特斯。

But in in in in Spain, I think of, actually, Mexican novelist Carlos Fuentes.

他写了一部非凡的小说《我们的土地》，这是一部反事实小说，讲述菲利普二世与伊丽莎白·都铎结婚，新大陆在他的统治时期被发现的故事。

He wrote he writes this extraordinary novel, Terra Nostra, which is a counterfactual novel in which Philip the second has married Elizabeth Tudor, and the new world is discovered in his reign.

而堂吉诃德是那部小说中的一个角色。

And Don Quixote is a character within that novel.

从某种意义上说，他显然是那种颠覆性的人物，他对现实的理解与实际情况不同，正是这种理解打开了某种裂隙，使得这种不同的历史观得以被把玩。

And it it's clear that, in a sense, he's the kind of destabilizing figure, which and his understanding of reality as being something different to what it is is what has opened up the kind of fissure that has enabled this different sense of history to to to be played with.

你在博尔赫斯的作品中也看到了这一点，他的短篇小说非常擅长对历史进行即兴演绎，并赋予其奇特的角度和迂回的视角。

And you get it in in Borges as well, who who who's kind in his short stories, is brilliant at riffing on history and and giving kind of strange angles, elliptical perspectives on it.

不过提到反事实历史，你接下来要请出吉姆·朗赫斯特了吧？

But, actually, the mention of counterfactual You're gonna bring in Jim Longhurst, aren't you?

吉姆·朗赫斯特正在后台候场呢。

Jim Longhurst is waiting off stage.

是的。

Yes.

他确实在。

He he he is.

他的问题是：你对终极历史小说有何看法？

And his question, what are your thoughts on ultimate history novels?

在我看来，这个类型中最优秀的作品都认识到整个概念的荒谬性，并将这种批判融入文本之中。

In my opinion, the best in the genre recognize absurd the whole idea is and integrate that critique in the text.

你完全可以这样评价卡洛斯·弗伦蒂斯的小说《我们的土地》。

So you could absolutely say that about Terra Nostra, Carlos Frentiss's novel.

例如，金·斯坦利·罗宾逊的《盐与米之年》就是一部杰出的小说，还有菲利普·K·迪克的《高堡奇人》，最近刚被改编成剧集，我记得是在HBO播出的。

E g, the the years of rice and salt by Kim Stanley Robinson, which is a brilliant novel, or the man in the high castle by Philip k Dick, which was a series very recently, I think, on HBO or something.

那么多米尼克，你对反事实历史有什么看法？

So Dominic, what's your take on counterfactual history?

哦，我认为在小说中运用反事实历史完全没问题。

So oh, I think it's fine in in novels.

从某种意义上说，所有小说本质上都是反事实的。

I mean, in a sense, all fiction is counterfactual by definition.

对吧？

Right?

就像所有小说本质上都是历史的一样。

Just like all fiction is historical by definition.

所有小说都设定在特定时刻，所有小说都在探索未曾发生过的事情。

All fiction is set in a given moment, and all fiction explores something that hasn't happened.

所以我对这一点完全没有异议。

So I don't have any problem with that.

当然，我们都会对‘如果...会怎样’这类问题着迷。

And, of course, we all have a fascination with the what if question.

即使是最枯燥、最刻板的历史学家也难免会被它吸引。

Even the driest, most desiccated historian can never really resist it.

我想，一个很好的例子——大家可能都预料我会提到罗伯特·哈里斯。

I think, obviously the Well, a good example is everyone would expect me to say Robert Harris.

《祖国》确实是本了不起的书。

And I guess, you know, Fatherland is a fantastic book.

我至今仍清晰记得在公交车上读最后一章时，想在到站前把它读完的心情。

I can well remember being on a bus reading the last chapter and, you know, wanting to finish it before I got to my stop.

不过汤姆，我说对金斯利·艾米斯的《篡改》情有独钟，你大概也不会意外。

But it also won't surprise you, Tom, to know that I have a very big soft spot for Kingsley Amos' The Alteration.

那你读过金斯利·艾米斯的《篡改》吗？

So, you read that Kingsley Amos' The Alteration?

有一本关于伊丽莎白的书，讲的是英格兰没有成为英格兰，没有成为无敌舰队之国。

There one about Elizabeth, about England not going England, not going Armada Land.

《无敌舰队之风》。

The Armada Wind.

是的。

Yes.

所以，这是一本

So, it's a

关于一个名叫休伯特·安维尔的男孩的故事，他即将成为阉人。

story of a boy called Hubert Anvil, who's about to become a eunuch.

他即将被阉割以保留他那美妙的歌喉。

He's about to be castrated so that he can preserve his beautiful singing voice.

而美国则是那种，你知道的，人们逃往的新英格兰新教共和国。

And America is this sort of, you know, it's this sort of New England Protestant Republic that people flee to.

所以这本书非常具有时代特色，我想是1976年的作品。

So it's a it's a book very much of its time, I think, 1976.

显然，这是一本关于国王利亚姆种种怪异执念的书，但同时也是一部探讨宗教改革及历史可能走向的作品。

So it's a book about, obviously, all King's Liam is a strange hang ups, but it's also a book about the reformation and what would have happened if things have been different.

但这也是一本将天主教英格兰比作苏联和东欧集团的书，人们正逃离那里，与新教世界进行着冷战

But it's also a book in which Catholic England is standing in for the Soviet Union and for the Eastern Bloc, and people are fleeing over the there's this cold war with the Protestant world

是啊。

Yeah.

由美国领导。

Led by America.

因此，这确实是一部在各种书籍中极具娱乐性的作品。

So it is just a and it's just an immensely entertaining book in all kinds of books.

我还000我记得那部小说的开头。

And I remember the opening of that.

令人难以置信的是，书中对伊丽莎白的黑牙有描述。

Incred and there's a description of Elizabeth's black teeth.

她被枪击后，假发脱落，终其一生，她的牙齿都是黑色的，当西班牙人攻占汉普顿宫或其他地方时，她因枪伤而死。

She gets shot, and her wig has fallen off, and her her kind of, you know, her teeth are all black and everything as she dies from the the bullet as the Spanish capture Hampton Court or whatever.

我是说，我也会提名《祖国》这本书。

Mean, I also I I would nominate Fatherland.

我记得罗伯特·哈里斯在《星期日泰晤士报》上发表过一篇宣传文章，就在这本书出版之前。

I I remember Robert Harris wrote a kind of a pitch for it in the Sunday Times before it came out.

我读了那篇文章，当时特别渴望能读到这本书。

And I read it, and I was so desperate to read it.

它确实没有让我失望。

And it didn't disappoint.

我记得有个情节是披头士乐队也在书里出现，这真的让人深刻感受到他们当时在做什么？

And the the bit I was remembering that is the Beatles are in it, which really brought home how close What are they doing?

我记不清那个具体情节了。

I can't remember that bit.

对。

Yeah.

披头士乐队就是，你知道的，四个来自利物浦的可爱蘑菇头男孩，纳粹对他们有点怀疑，但还是允许他们演出。

The the Beatles are just you know, they're four lovable mop tops from Liverpool, and then the Nazis are slightly suspicious about them, but let them let them play.

他们还是去了汉堡。

They still go to Hamburg.

大概是的。

Presumably, they do.

我想路程会更方便些。

Easier journey, I imagine.

我记得。

I remember.

我想他们只是简单提了一下。

I think I think they just kind of mentioned.

但我觉得这是在让你意识到六十年代可能完全不同，这确实...

But I guess it's kind of anchoring you in the fact that actually the sixties might have been completely different, and that really Yeah.

让人为之一震。

Provided a jolt.

作为一个严肃的例子，吉姆·朗赫斯特提到过金·斯坦利·罗宾逊的《米与盐的年代》，他主要是科幻作家，非常关注环境问题、全球变暖和栖息地丧失这类议题。

Mean, in in as a kind of serious one, it's mentioned by Jim Longhurst, The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson, who is mainly a science fiction writer, very concerned with environmental issues, global warming and habitat loss and all that kind of thing.

《米与盐的年代》讲述的是黑死病消灭了所有欧洲人的故事。

And Years of Rice and Salt is the Black Death wipes out all the Europeans.

于是欧洲随后被未被消灭的穆斯林殖民，并缓慢追溯了后续发生的事件进程。

And so Europe then gets colonized by Muslims who have not been wiped out, and it then slowly traces the course of what happens.

哦，这真有趣。

Oh, that's so interesting.

这真是

That's so

有意思。

interesting.

而它有趣之处在于，与大多数关于希特勒、伟人、战役胜负之类的反事实假设不同，这本书采用了更为长远的视角，所以书名才叫《米与盐的年代》。

And the thing and the thing that's interesting about it is unlike most counterfactuals, which are all about kind of Hitler and great men and, you know, battles get lost or whatever, this is this is a kind of much more long duray kind of perspective, and it's and that's why it's it's rice and salt.

这本书非常非常出色。

It's about it's it's it's very, very good.

总之，听着。

Anyway, listen.

我们要不要再讨论一个问题？

Should we have another question?

好的。

Yes.

帕特·罗伯茨，节目的老朋友，同时也延续了我们之前的一些讨论话题。

Pat Roberts, a good friend of the show, but also kind of picking up on some of the stuff we talked about.

那些围绕作者出生年代展开的高地位小说是否算作历史小说？比如《米德尔马契》、《名利场》、哈代的大部分作品、狄更斯的部分作品，当然我们还可以把《战争与和平》也算进来？

Do high status novels set around the time of the author's birth count as historical, Middlemarch, Vanity Fair, most of Hardy, some of Dickens, and, of course, we could include War and Peace?

我认为答案绝对是肯定的，不是吗？

And I think the answer to that is absolutely, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

确实如此。

It is.

《名利场》是一部伟大的历史小说，《米德尔马契》。

Vanity Fair is a a is a great historical novel, Middlemarch.

《名利场》是一部历史小说。

Vanity Fair is a historical novel.

想想斯汤达的《帕尔马修道院》。

Think of Stondahl's The Charterhouse of Palmer.

它们不必围绕作者出生年代。

They don't have to be around the time of the author's birth.

另一位提问者丽贝卡·哈钦森询问了埃米尔·左拉，另一位法国作家。

So another questioner, Rebecca Hutchinson asked about Emile Zola, another French writer.

左拉是另一位十九世纪作家，他描写的是二三十年前的事件。

And Zola is another nineteenth century writer who's writing about events about twenty or thirty years previous.

例如他描写了普法战争，《卢贡-马卡尔家族》。

So he was writing about the Franco Prussian war, for example, and La des Barches.

我认为他们都热爱历史小说。

And I think they all love historical novels.

实际上，

And actually,

我认为通常那些

I think often those are

才是最优秀的历史小说。

the historical novels that were best.

《双城记》就是一个例子。

So A Tale of Two Cities is an example.

事件与写作之间仅相隔约五十年，因此作者能轻松融入前日的语言风格。

It's only fifty years or so between the events before the so the writer can slip quite easily into the idiom of the day before yesterday.

是的。

Yeah.

他们无需刻意模仿那种古怪、古旧的对话风格，也不会用繁琐的细节来证明自己做过研究。

And they don't need to sort of affect this sort of bizarre, archaic conversational style, and nor do they oppress you with the minutiae of detail to show that they've done their research.

所以他们只需自然地回望过去。

So they just quite easily look slightly backwards.

还有

And the

斯科特的《威弗利》也是如此，我想它堪称第一部经典历史小说，背景设定在詹姆斯党人起义时期。虽然与斯科特写作的年代相隔已久，但基本上仍在人们的鲜活记忆范围内。

same is true of Scott's Waverly, which I guess is classically the first historical novel, set in the background of Jacobites and And that's very much kind of it's removed from the time that Scott is writing about it, but it's kind of within basically living memory.

是啊。

Yeah.

现在人们也这么做，不是吗？

People do that now, don't they?

我是说，人们会写这类书。

Mean, people write books.

比如乔纳森·科尔的《浪子俱乐部》，菲利普·亨舍尔的《北方慈悲》。

Jonathan Coe, The Rotter's Club, Philip Henscher, The Northern Clemency.

人们正在创作以七八十年代为背景的书籍。确实如此。

People are writing books set in the seventies and eighties, and Yeah.

它们就是历史小说。

They're historical novels.

嗯，司各特确实非常保守。

Well, Scott was was very much conservative.

是的。

Yes.

而你，多米尼克，作为一位杰出的左翼历史学家。

And and and you, Dominic, as a as a leading left wing historian.

没错。

Yeah.

这里有个问题要问你，是威廉提出的

Here's a question for you, and it's from William

我一直在思考这个问题。

I wrestle with this.

我一直在思考所有这些

I wrestle with all these Is

历史小说通常都是保守的吗？

historical fiction typically conservative?

斯科特·狄更斯在讲话。

Scott Dickens talking.

我不认为狄更斯是保守派。

I don't think Dickens is conservative.

我是说狄更斯很模棱两可，不是吗？

I mean Dickens is ambiguous, isn't he?

狄更斯非常模棱两可。

Dickens is very ambiguous.

他非常...你知道我们之前讨论过这个。

He's very much he's you know, we talked about this before.

他非常支持慈善家出现并散播财富，但他对贫困的道德愤怒感——我不认为这真正属于保守主义。

He's very much in favor of the philanthropist turning up and scattering gold, but his his his moral sense of moral anger at poverty and so I don't think is is really conservative.

总之，斯科特和托尔金绝对是保守派。

Anyway, Scott and Tolkien, they're definitely conservative.

变革被视为怪异混乱，而延续才是自由与希望的保障。

Change being a strange and chaotic and continuity a guarantor of freedom and hope.

是的。

Yeah.

这也是我之前提到的《豹》这本书的精神内核，朱塞佩·托马西·迪·兰佩杜萨的作品。

And that's also the ethos of the leopard, the book I mentioned earlier, the lamp Tomasi de Lampedusa book.

托尔斯泰同样是个矛盾人物，我猜，两者都算保守派。

Tolstoy, again, an ambiguous figure, guess, both conservative.

我想问题在于，回顾过去而非书写当下这一行为本身，是否本质上就是一种保守倾向？

I guess the question is, is the process of looking back to the past rather than writing about the present, is that not in itself inherently a conservative thing to do?

确实如此。

Yes.

从某些角度看大概是的，不是吗？

It probably is in some ways, isn't it?

我认为人们很少会带着对那个时代的恐惧去回顾历史并创作相关作品。

I don't think people tend to look back in the past to the past very rarely do people look back to the past and write books that are shot through with horror about the period they're writing about.

他们往往出于热爱而写作，不是吗？

They tend to write out of love, don't they?

你觉得呢？

Do you think?

嗯，有个有趣的例子，你可能会说这是最早的历史小说，就是笛福写的瘟疫记录。

Well, an interesting one, and you might say that this was the very first historical novel, would be Defoe's record of the plagia.

好的。

Okay.

你知道，他写那本书的时候大约是在事件发生七十年后。

You know, I mean, he's writing that when kind of seventy years after Yeah.

伦敦大瘟疫。

The great plague of London.

但他写得如此逼真，以至于现在所有人都把它当作真实的历史记录。

But he writes it so convincingly that everyone now treats it as a, you know, an actual record of what went on.

但这本书本身算是保守主义的作品吗？

So But it's not but it's not is it a conservative book?

我...我是说，我不认为...我不确定...

I I mean, I don't think you I wouldn't I don't know nothing

关于他在写的这部小说，我想应该是一部恐怖小说。

about He's writing it it's it's it's a novel that that is about horror, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

你提到的《双城记》显然是一部保守主义的书，不是吗？

Tell her Two Cities, which you mentioned, is clearly a conservative book, isn't it?

没错。

Yeah.

非常保守，我认为。

Very, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这推翻了你说狄更斯

Thus, exploding your claim that Dickens was

不是保守派作家的说法。

not a conservative writer.

嗯，正如我们所说，他有点...因为因为他描绘的那种残酷的

Well, as we said, he it's a bit of a because because his portrayal of the the brutality of the

是啊。

Yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

没错。

Yeah.

这简直太精彩了。

It's it's absolutely brilliant.

我是说，那位带着巧克力的主教大人乘马车出行时，他们撞倒了一个小男孩。

I mean, the count of the the monsignor with his chocolate who rides out in his carriage, they knock over the small boy.

没错。

That's right.

而那位失去孩子的父亲在城堡里向他复仇并杀死他，你知道的，我是说，你不会认为这一定是...

And the the the bereaved father who besues him and kills him in the chateau is, you know, I mean, you wouldn't say that's necessarily No.

你说得对。

You're right.

一种保守的写作风格。

A conservative writing.

我的意思是，差不多吧。

I mean, it's kinda yeah.

那里有些紧张感。

There's kinda tension there.

总之，我认为那是一种有所保留的肯定回答，不是吗？

Anyway, I I say, I think that's a kind of a reserved yes to that answer, isn't it?

我想是的。

I think.

我们还应该做些什么？

What else should we do?

我们已经讨论过丽贝卡了。

We've done Rebecca.

我们该怎么

How should we

哦，这个不错。

Oh, here's a good one.

继续。

Go on.

《爱》、《雷诺兹》和《坟墓》采用第一人称视角。

Love, Reynolds and Graves for the first person approach.

而《战争与和平》则探讨了谁在书写历史，还是历史自我书写这一宏大命题。

And War and Peace for tackling the whole question of who's writing history or is history writing itself?

这是托宾·奥伯提出的。

That's from Tobin Ober.

好的。

Okay.

所以问题在于第一人称叙述与全知第三人称叙述之间的选择。

So the question of first person narratives over a kind of third person omniscient narrator.

你对哪种方式更有效有什么看法？

Which do do you have opinion on which works better?

托比和奥伯提到了玛丽·雷诺，我们完全没提过她。

Toby and Ober mentions Mary Renault, we haven't mentioned at all.

是玛丽·雷诺，多米尼克。

It's Mary Renault, Dominic.

是啊。

Yeah.

玛丽·雷诺太让人震惊了。

Mary Renault is shocking.

确实就是玛丽·雷诺。

It's really is Mary Renault.

真希望我能...我记不清了

I wish I could I call off of I've

所有人都在模仿法语发音。

all the people to affect a French pronunciation.

我可能是最出乎大家意料的那个人。

I would be the last that anyone would expect.

总之，那本书是《波斯男孩》，亚历山大三部曲的中间一部，我认为也是最好的一部。

Anyway, so that book's The Persian Boy, and the middle one in the Alexander trilogy, and the best one, I think.

而且它是由宦官巴高斯讲述的，是的。

And it's narrated by the eunuch, Bagawas, who Yes.

亚历山大选择了

Alexander picks The

关于阉割最骇人的描述，至今仍让我想夹紧双腿。

most hideous description of a castration, which still makes me want to cross my legs it.

而且我认为

And I think

实际上效果相当不错。

it works actually pretty well.

我是说，这听起来像是个荒谬的小说构思。

I mean, it sounds like a ridiculous idea for a novel.

要知道，我基本上就是让一个波斯太监来讲述亚历山大大帝的征服故事，而且是用小说这种本质上属于十八、十九世纪的文学形式。

You know, you're I'm gonna basically have a Persian eunuch narrate the conquests of Alexander the Great in this, again, in a novel, which is an inherently kind of eighteenth, nineteenth century literary form.

但我认为只要叙事声音保持完整性，这个设定是可行的。

But I think it can work if there's integrity to the narrative voice, I guess.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

特别是玛丽·雷诺的作品，我认为这种完整性恰恰来源于一个奇特事实：她作为与另一位女性相恋的女性，却在为男性角色发声——比如巴勾斯这个男孩角色。

And I think with with Mary Renal, in particular, I think the integrity comes from the kind of the strangeness of the fact that she is a woman in a relationship with another woman ventriloquizing a man or in the case of Bhagavas, a boy A boy.

而这个男孩角色反过来又与男性发生关系。

Who in turn are then sleeping with men.

这就形成了一种层层递进的错位效应。

So there's a kind of ripple effect of of disorientation happening there.

实际上，雷诺的作品在某种程度上真实还原了古希腊的精神——以我们现代标准来看，那种令人难以置信的大男子主义。

And actually, Reynolds' books are kind of authentically true to the spirit of ancient Greece in their kind of, by our standards, incredible chauvinism.

我记得在《远离天堂》（那部关于亚历山大童年与青年时代的系列首作）里，雷诺通过亚历山大之口说出了一句惊人的描述：‘我宁愿死也不愿当女人’

And I remember in Far From Heaven, which is the first in that series about Alexander's childhood and and youth, there's a kind of amazing description where Renault, ventriloquising Alexander, says, I'd hate to to be a woman.

她们有点像，你知道的，像小鸟一样叽叽喳喳。

They kind of you know, they they twitter like birds.

她们只能生活在笼子里，无法像我们男人这样。

And they they connect they they just have to live in cages, and they cannot be like like men, we are.

我们可以外出做事。

We go out and do things.

然后你会想，这可是一个女人写的。

And and then you think, well, you know, it's it's a woman writing this.

这种设定让你与当下产生了一种疏离感。

And it kind of sets up it it it it distances you, I think, from the present.

我认为这正是这些小说的力量所在——它动摇了我们对性别等基本概念的固有认知，虽然这可能并非公元前四世纪希腊人的真实想法。

And it it that, I think, is part of the power of those novels that it unsettles our understanding of fairly fundamental notions like sex, like gender a way that may not be necessarily true to how Greeks in the fourth century actually thought.

但通过解构我们的理解，它确实将你带入了一个不同的领域，这正是历史小说应该做到的。

But it by destabilizing our understanding of them, it it kinda does take you into a different sphere, which I think is what historical fiction should do.

我在想，回到Flashman这个话题，是否当前历史小说创作面临的问题之一就是禁忌太多了。

And I wonder you know, going back to Flashman, I wonder whether one of the issues at the moment in writing historical fiction is that there are too many taboos.

那个，是的。

That that Yeah.

关于什么是可接受的道德观念变化如此之快，以至于实际上，回到过去并阐述那些时期的主流观点几乎变得危险，因为这些观点对现在的许多读者来说会显得难以接受。

Moral the moral sense of what is acceptable is changing so fast that, actually, it it it almost becomes dangerous to go back and and essentially articulate mainstream views in earlier periods because they would just seem unacceptable to to so many readers now.

我是说，我不确定。

I mean, I don't know.

我认为

I think

我确信确实如此。

I'm sure that's true.

因为我最喜欢的几本历史背景小说中，科马克·麦卡锡的《血色子午线》应该算一部。

Because one of my favorite books set in the past, I suppose, would be well, a couple of them, Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

你知道，那真是——那简直太棒了。

You know, that's That is a oh, that is so good.

一本震撼人心的书。

A powerful book.

但同样，这本书如果今天出版，可能会得到与八十年代中期出版时不同的反响。

But again, a book that if it was published today, would probably get a different reaction when it was published in, I think, the mid eighties.

没错。

Right.

所以我们应当

And so we should just

回顾历史背景——故事设定在1850年左右美墨边境地带。

So it's looking back to haven't read Looking back to so it's set on the borderlands between Mexico and The United States in about 1850.

它讲述了一个男孩加入头皮猎人团伙的经历。

And it's about it follows a boy who is part of a gang of scalp hunters.

他们实际上就是四处杀戮，奸淫掳掠。

So they're literally just going around killing people, effectively raping and pillaging.

但故事以一种极度阴郁、黑暗、血腥的方式展开叙述。

But it's told in this incredibly bleak, dark, bloody way.

有点像弥尔顿和詹姆斯王圣经的风格，对吧？

Kinda like Milton and King James Bible, isn't it?

就是极其夸张，非常拔高。

Just utterly over Very heightened.

而且正如你所说，它带有这种史诗般的道德说教感笼罩着整个故事。

And it's and it's got this as you say, it's got this kind of epic moralism kind of hanging over it.

所以你感觉发生的事情看似规模很小，但实际上带有这种末日启示录般的意味。

So you the sense that what's happening is is is appears to be quite small scale, but actually, it's got this apocalyptic.

这感觉就像是世界末日，不是吗？

It feels like the end of the world, doesn't it?

就像是，对。

It's like Yeah.

而且我认为相同

And I think Same

他在《路》中使用的风格。

style that he uses in the road.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为这正是现实主义被驱逐的例证，因为这个恐怖角色——法官，他是那种...

And and I and I think that that's an example of how realism is banished because there's this terrifying figure, the judge, who's this kind

无毛的阿尔贝多形象，恋童癖者...小说中最令人毛骨悚然的角色，不是吗？

of hairless Albedo who pedophiles Frightening who character in fiction, isn't it?

我认为在故事结尾基本暗示了他就是魔鬼。这不算剧透——他是不朽的，是那种毁灭、杀戮、强奸与谋杀欲望的永恒化身。

And I think he's basically at the at the end, it's kind of implied that he's the devil, and I don't think that I'm giving away any spoilers in that he's immortal, that he's a kind of immortal representative of of the impulse to destroy and kill and rape and and murder.

对。

Yeah.

不过我不...

So but I no.

我认为...我的意思是，没人会想要审查科马克·麦卡锡的作品

I think that I think that would still I I mean, I don't think anyone would would think to censor Cormac McCarthy

我想也是。

I suppose.

因为我认为

Because I think

他的伟大之处太显而易见了。

his greatness is too evident.

也许吧。

Maybe.

也许吧。

Maybe.

那威廉·福克纳的《押沙龙，押沙龙！》呢？

Or what about, say, Absalom, Absalom by William Faulkner?

那是本非常难懂的书。

So that's a very difficult book.

它回顾了——我是说，读起来有点困难，因为福克纳的文风非常稠密。

It's looking back to the I mean, it's sort of difficult to read because it's Faulkner has a very dense sort of style.

而且，它回顾了美国内战以及美国南方奴隶制的污点。

But also, it's looking back to the civil war, the American civil war and the and the stain of slavery in the American South.

所以书中有很多关于种族的敏感内容，我认为会让很多现代读者感到不安。

So there's a lot of kind of very charged stuff about race in there that I think readers, a lot of modern readers, would find very unsettling.

我是说，书中的语言显然已经过时了，比如现在人们不会使用那些表达方式。

I mean, the language is obviously, you know, language that people wouldn't use now, for example.

嗯。

Yep.

那么，汤姆，让我们以我...

So, Tom, let's wrap up with I

我是说，我们收到了太多推文，很抱歉只能讨论其中一小部分。

mean, there's so many tweets, and I'm sorry we haven't been able to get through more than a fraction of them.

但我们最后会以约翰·萨金特的推文作为结束。

But we'll end with John Sargent's tweet.

他说：如果只能有一本历史题材的小说在即将到来的末日浩劫中幸存——无论是僵尸、蜥蜴人还是光明会霸主引发的末日——这本能让人类文明得以重启的历史小说应该是什么？

He says, if only one book on history, which was fiction, survived the coming apocalypse, the zombies, the lizard lizard, Illuminati overlords, launching Armageddon, what book would that be to restart history as something humans do?

所以是一本能幸存下来的历史小说。

So one historical novel that would survive.

汤姆，你会选哪本书？

Tom, what would you choose?

我想我可能会选择沃尔特·斯科特的《威弗利》，因为我认为它确实是历史小说的源头。

I think I would choose probably Walter Scott's Waverly on the assumption that that really is the kind of the fountainhead of historical fiction, I think.

我不

I don't

认为它是

think it's

最扣人心弦的。

the most gripping.

我不认为它是最有趣的。

I don't I don't think it's the most enjoyable.

我认为它可能是最具影响力的。

I think it's perhaps the most influential.

我认为如果没有这部小说，我们今天所熟知的历史小说可能会大不相同。

I think without that novel, historical fiction as we have it now wouldn't be quite the same.

嗯，我差点想说《弗拉什曼》因为它是最好笑的。

Well, I'm tempted to say Flashman because it's the funniest.

但我的意思是，未来人类文明建立在《弗拉什曼》基础上的想法可能...

But I mean, the idea of the future human civilization being based on Flashman is probably

会是其中之一

one of would be

甚至让我感到不安的想法。

even my Disturbing thought.

是啊。

Yeah.

非常令人不安的想法。

Very disturbing thought.

也许出于情感因素，我该选择我记得读过的第一本历史小说，叫什么来着？

Maybe So I should pick maybe for sentimental reasons, I'll pick the first historical novel that I remember reading, which is what's it?

历史小说？

Historical novel?