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没错。
That's right.
现在大家都越来越兴奋了。
It's heating up everyone.
世界杯这场全球最大的赛事，剩下的比赛都在Netflix上播出，现在正式进入关键阶段了。
The rest is football is on Netflix for the world's biggest tournament, and we're officially in the business end.
淘汰赛已经打响，别担心，我、艾伦和米迦还是会每天从纽约带来所有焦点赛事的讨论，还会请来一两位特别嘉宾助阵。
The knockouts are here, and don't worry, myself, Alan, and Micah are still here every day from New York City, all the debates from the biggest games, and a special guest or two for good measure.
这真是段精彩时光。
What a time we're having.
千万别错过。
Don't miss it.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎收听《余下的历史》。
Welcome to the rest is history.
在《米德尔马契》所描绘的那个时代，铁路和改革法案、霍乱的威胁一样，是人们热议的话题，而对此最有鲜明立场的，往往是女性和地主。
In the hundreds to which Middlemarch belonged, railways were as exciting a topic as the reform bill or the imminent horrors of cholera, and those who held the most decided views on the subject were women and landholders.
无论是年长还是年轻的女性，都认为坐蒸汽火车既冒失又危险，坚持说无论如何都不会踏上火车车厢；而地主们则一致认为，无论土地是卖给‘人类的敌人’还是必须购买的公司，这些有害的设施都必须向地主支付高昂费用，作为对人类造成伤害的补偿。
Women, both old and young, regarded traveling by steam as presumptuous and dangerous and argued against it by saying that nothing should induce them to get into a railway carriage, while proprietors were unanimous in the opinion that in selling land, whether to the enemy of mankind or to a company obliged to purchase, these pernicious agencies must be made to pay a very high price to landowners for permission to injure mankind.
这是乔治·艾略特在1870年出版的《米德尔马契》里的描写，但若往前推三四十年，那正是铁路进入英格兰中部地区的时候。
Now that is George Eliot in Middlemarch, first published in 1870, but looking back thirty or forty years earlier, it's the arrival of the railways in Middle England.
汤姆·霍兰德，铁路这个主题真是了不起。
Tom Holland's the railways, what an amazing subject.
我的意思是，这可是维多利亚时代乃至整个现代史上最具变革意义的时刻之一。
I mean, transformative moments in Victorian history and indeed in, well, in all modern history, you might say.
嗯，有些时候你
Well, I mean, are times where you
会发现，要么出了事故，要么火车取消了，只好安排接驳巴士，结果所有厕所都堵了。
find that, there's been some accident or a train's been canceled or there's a strike and a replacement bus has been laid on, and, all the all all the toilets sharp.
英语里有个词，叫‘铁路接驳巴士’。
Words in the English language, rail replacement bus.
简直太糟心了。
And it's just miserable.
你忍不住咒骂铁路。
And you curse the railways.
但你又会想起它那份浪漫，那种纯粹的激动人心。
But then you you think about the romance of it and the the just the sheer kind of excitement
就是这样。
of of this.
埃里克·霍布斯鲍姆把铁路的发明比作原子能的掌控。
So so Eric Hobsbawm compared the invention of the railways to the harnessing of the atom.
这简直是一场人类智慧的爆发，彻底打开了工业发展的大门，改变了整个世界。
That this was a you know, that that these were comparable kind of explosions of human ingenuity and what it opened up in terms of industry and ability to to kind of transform the world.
说得对。
It's fair.
而且
And
我们之前收到一个关于这个问题的问题。
We had a we had a we had a question about that.
奥利奥科认为，铁路的诞生是推动现代世界到来的最重要变革。
Olioko was the birth of the railways the most significant development in ushering in the modern world.
这绝对算得上是最重要的发明之一，当然，几个世纪前的印刷术，或者稍晚一点的电报，也都算在内。
And, you know, it it's it's definitely up there with I mean, obviously, the printing press a few centuries earlier, maybe later, the telegraph.
是的。
Yeah.
你觉得呢，汤姆？
Do not think, Tom?
我同意。
Well, I do.
没错。
Do.
当然，任何英国人一想到这一点都会心潮澎湃，因为这是英国人的一项伟大发明。
And, of course, one of the one of the things that gets any British heart swelling is that this is a great British invention.
但事实就是如此。
But but But it is.
简直可以说这是诺森伯兰地区的发明。
One might almost say a Northumbrian invention.
哦。
Oh.
正因为如此，我们唯一能请来谈论这个话题的嘉宾，就只有他了。
And so in the awareness of that, there was really only the one guest that we could ask to come on and talk about it for us.
此刻，他就坐在纽卡斯尔，戴着一顶维多利亚时代资本家的帽子。
And he is sitting in Newcastle as we speak wearing a Victorian capitalist's hat.
他现在看起来，就像伊桑巴德·金德姆那样，整整一小时。
So he looks like Isambard king for an hour.
他就是唯一一位——丹·杰克逊。
It's the one and only Dan Jackson.
晚上好，丹。
Good evening, Dan.
晚上好，各位。
Good evening, gentlemen.
最近怎么样？
How are you?
很好。
Very well.
很好。
Very well.
很好。
Very well.
我觉得从今以后，大家都该戴帽子了。
I think every all I guess from now on should wear hats.
得是合适的帽子。
Appropriate hats.
有主题的那种。
Thematic.
真可惜听众看不到这顶帽子，你这模样简直活脱脱就是个铁路大亨，说真的，我看你更像美国那个时代的铁路垄断巨头。
It's such a shame the listeners don't get to see this hat because it you really do look like the absolute image of a of a sort of to be honest, you look a bit more to me US railroad robber baron.
没错。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
这话说得在理。
That's a good point.
我刚才想到的是布鲁内尔，不过你说得也有道理。
I was thinking Brunel, but I'll go with that.
是的。
Yeah.
那是亚伯拉罕·林肯。
That's Abraham Lincoln.
对。
Yeah.
高筒礼帽，像炉管一样的那种。
Stovepipe stovepipe top hat.
你知道吗，我刚截了个图，打算用在我们的推特广告里。
Well, do you know, I've just taken a screenshot, so I'll put that up as, as part of our Twitter advertisement.
还有丹，写了《诺森布里亚人》那本书的作者，一本关于英格兰东北部地方历史的精彩著作。
But so so Dan, author of the Northumbrians, brilliant brilliant local history of the history of the Northeast.
丹差不多就是去年这个时候来过，聊过英格兰各个地区的事，对吧？
And Dan came on pretty much this time last year, wasn't it, to talk about the regions in England.
所以丹，我当初问你的时候，还以为我们会重点讲诺森布里亚这一块。
So so, Dan, when I asked you, I thought that we were gonna be focusing very much on the Northumbrian angle.
我还问你，你打算把铁路历史讲到多早？
And I said to you, you know, how far do you wanna go with with the history of the railways?
你回答说，不如从古代起源开始讲，挺有意思的。
And you replied, I think it would be fun to do the origins of antiquity.
说实话，我压根没想到铁路的源头居然能追溯到古代，我本该知道的，但真没想过。
You see, I didn't know that I should have known that perhaps, but I didn't know that the origins of the railways lay in antiquity.
然后是煤炭时代，再讲讲文化影响，接着是二十世纪。
Then the age of coal, then something on the cultural impact maybe, then the twentieth century.
所以。
So
生命是什么？
What's life?
这无疑是非常有雄心的，
So nothing if not ambitious,
这正好解释了你为什么戴着维多利亚时代资本家的帽子。
which is obviously why you're wearing your Victorian capitalist hat.
是的。
Yeah.
这真是个精彩的故事。
Well, it's a great story.
这简直是个浪漫的传奇，对吧？
It's a great romantic story, isn't it?
它彻底改变了世界。
And it's a it's a it's something that changed the world.
但毫无疑问，我认为它最重要的一些关键发展都发生在英格兰东北部。
But, obviously, inevitably, I argue that it's some of its key, most important developments took place in the Northeast Of England.
这真是一个惊人的发现。
That's a stunning that's a stunning development.
谁能想到呢？
Who'd have thought it?
好吧。
Okay.
听我说。
Well, listen.
所以，我之前问的那个问题——它的起源是不是可以追溯到古代？
So so, that that question that that I asked, do its origins lie in antiquity?
我完全没想到。
I had no idea.
再加上，我们收到了沃伦·艾利森的问题，他问：铁路的诞生是不是源于16世纪中期，德国矿工把地下用于铅矿和铜矿的木制轨道系统带了过来？
Combined with, we've got a question from Warren Allison who asked, surely the birth of railways was when German miners in the mid fifteen hundreds brought over wooden wagonways, used underground in the lead and copper mines.
所以，铁路的起源是古代，还是早期现代的德国，或者两者都不是？
So is it antiquity, or is it, early modern Germany, or is it neither of those?
我觉得，这个故事的起源其实是多方面的。
Well, I think, it's there's multiple origins of this story.
人们通常关注铁路发展史中的蒸汽机，这一点我们待会儿肯定会谈到。
I think what people tend to focus on in the birth of the railway story is the the steam engine, and we'll come onto that definitely.
但铁轨本身显然是这个故事的关键部分，19世纪在熟铁技术等方面出现了一些重大突破，这些都至关重要。
But obviously the rails, the tracks themselves were a key part of this story, and there are some key developments in the nineteenth century around wrought iron technology and so on which are absolutely crucial.
但最早可以被称为铁路前身的轨道系统，其实出现在古希腊。
But the first use of a sort of trackway that you could say was the the precursor of the railway was in was in ancient Greece.
公元前600年左右，有一种叫‘迪奥尔科斯’的石砌轨道，用来在地峡上运送船只。
600 BC, there was a was something called a diolcos, a paved trackway, which transported boats across the isthmus of Of course.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Of course.
科林斯。
Corinth.
是的，这个。
So this Yes.
几个世纪以来，人们一直在想办法如何在复杂地形上运输重物。
People have been wrestling with the challenge of how do you move heavy objects across difficult terrain for hundreds of years.
而这段历史的很大一部分都跟采矿有关，尤其是德国矿工。早在16世纪初，就有记录显示德国矿工在山坡上使用类似的轨道系统，甚至早期的缆车，来运输矿石、煤炭、石料等重物。
And then a lot of this story is related to mining, and German miners, certainly, we've got some records from the early sixteenth century where miners in Germany are using similar sort of trackways, even proto funicular railways up hills and so on to transport heavy mined goods, coal, stone, etcetera, across difficult terrain.
到了16世纪后期，这种做法开始在英国出现。
And then we start to see this appear in England at around the later sixteenth century yeah.
16世纪后期，一些德国矿工来到坎伯兰的卡德贝克，在那里采矿。
Later sixteenth century, where some German miners come over to Caldbeck in in Cumberland, and they're working as miners there.
这可能是最早有关所谓“矿车轨道”的记录了——最初只是地面上的凹槽，后来演变成木制轨道，用来引导简陋的运货小车，运输沉重的货物。
So that's probably one of the first records of what became known as wagonways, which were the grooves initially, and then they moved on to be become, kind of wooden rails that kinda that guided pretty primitive trucks across them to carry heavy heavy goods.
在我所在的地区，东南诺森伯兰，早在1605年左右，布莱斯附近就已经出现了非常早期的运煤轨道。
And even in my part of the world, Southeast Northumberland, you see you see very, very early wagon ways in the around sixteen o five outside Blythe inevitably transporting coal.
到了十八世纪初，这种轨道已经广泛普及，整个英国都闻名遐迩，人们称之为‘纽卡斯尔道路’。
And by the by the early eighteenth century, these are proliferated to such an extent that they're well known around the country, and they are known as Newcastle Roads.
丹，我真不好意思这么问你。
Dan, I hate to do this to you.
1605年。
16 o five.
但1604年，什罗普郡发生了一件大事，多米尼克。
But in sixteen o four big happening in Shropshire, Dominic.
什罗普郡当时已经有一条缆车铁路了。
There is a funicular railway in Shropshire.
啊，不会吧。
Oh, no.
那就是罗斯利铁路，把詹姆斯·克利福德矿里的煤运到塞文河畔。
So Roseley, which carries coal for James Clifford from his mines down to the River Severn.
我觉得什罗普郡，至于威尔特郡，根本没参与这件事。
So I think Shropshire I don't think Wiltshire contributed to this at all.
汤姆，我网上看到过，如果你听了能开心点的话，索斯伯里那边有一条非常古老的古道。
Well, Tom, I I read online, Tom, if this will cheer you up, that there is some kind of trackway, a very a prehistoric trackway In Sonsbury.
就在萨默塞特沼泽地区。
In Somerset levels.
太好了。
Oh, good.
太好了。
Oh, good.
在布鲁河谷吗？
In the valley of the River Brew?
你是在研究这个吗？
Is this Is this have you been researching
又去博德利图书馆了？
in the Bodleian again?
这可不是我最近在博德利图书馆做的研究，就在播客开始前五分钟随便翻的。
This isn't my my close research that I do in the Bodleian library five minutes before the podcast.
是那个叫Brewton的Brew河吗？
Oh, the River Brew as in Brewton.
是英国的Brew。
As in Britain.
没错。
Exactly.
哦，他
Oh, he
总之，什罗普郡显然是铁路的发源地。
So anyway anyway, Shropshire, clearly the place where the railways began.
这里铁路历史底蕴深厚，但我猜，丹，你可能有不同看法，毕竟什罗普郡的科尔布鲁克代尔还用金属轨道，那地方可是工业革命的发源地，早在18世纪60年代就有了。
Steeped in in railway history, but I I suspect, Dan, you may have a different take on because obviously well, Shropshire, they also have plates, metal plates they use in Colbrookdale, which is obviously the birthplace of the industrial revolution, in in in Shropshire in the seventeen sixties.
不过丹，我觉得你可能也这么想，说到底最合理的说法应该是，整个不列颠群岛的产煤区，当时大家都在试验各种轨道系统，用的是什么呢？
But, Dan, I suspect you may have I mean, I think probably maybe the fairest the sensible thing to say, I guess, is that all across coal producing areas of the British Isles, people are experimenting with different kinds of trackways, and they're using, what?
首先，是什么？
First, what?
木头的？
Wooden?
木头的。
Wooden.
我们现在是在十八世纪吗？
What what are we in the eighteenth century?
我想在十六、十七世纪的时候，他们用的是木头轨道。
I suppose in the sixteenth cent sixteenth, seventeenth century, they're using wooden.
那什么时候开始转向金属的呢？
And then at what point do they move towards metal?
我觉得有记录的第一批铁轨其实是铺在巴斯的，就在1770年左右。
Well, I I think the first recorded iron rails were laid at in Bath, actually, in the '17 Yeah.
这太棒了。
That's wonderful.
我还以为作为南方的粗犷代表和巴斯的代表，我完全被排除在外了。
I thought I was gonna be completely left out of this as a southern brutal and Bath.
没错。
Yes.
确实如此。
Yes.
正如我之前说的，铁轨本身的故事常常被忽视。
So and as I said, story of the rails themselves is sometimes overlooked.
我觉得在十九世纪初，各种技术发展开始汇聚，这 arguably 是最关键的那个时刻。
And I think we get the a lot of kind of technological developments starting to come to a head in the early nineteenth century, which I think is arguably the key moment.
好几个地方都声称自己拥有第一条铁路。
Several places claim to have the first railways.
我们已经探讨过其中一些了。
We've explored some of them.
但真正关键的是，铁路技术本身与蒸汽机技术的结合。
But then it's the it's this, alignment of the, the railway technology itself with steam engine technology.
你知道吗，纽科门早在十八世纪初就率先发明了，后来到了十八世纪后期，詹姆斯·瓦特进一步改进了它。
You know, Newcom and pioneered it in the early eighteenth century, then James Watt in the later eighteenth century.
蒸汽机和铁轨结合在一起，才是真正故事的开端。
And the combination of steam engines and rails is when the story really starts.
因为，丹，你刚才提到古希腊也有铁路，但其实古希腊人早就有了蒸汽机呢。
Because, Dan, you you mentioned, ancient Greece and railways, but, of course, the ancient Greeks also had steam engines Uh-huh.
他们在亚历山大城就提出了蒸汽机的基本原理，只是用来做神庙里一些稀奇古怪的装置。
Which they in Alexandria, they developed the principle of the steam engine and used it basically for for kind of exotic gimmicks in temples.
不过，阿诺德·汤因比在他的多卷本世界史里写过一个著名的假设：如果马其顿人发明了蒸汽机会怎样。
But there's a famous counterfactual written by Arnold Toynbee in his, you know, multi volume history of the world where he imagines what would have happened had the Macedonians developed the steam engine.
他描绘了一个明显受自己时代英国工业发展影响的场景——马其顿蒸汽机的图景。
And he has a kind of vision obviously influenced by the time he was writing what was happening with, with with the British of Macedonian steam engines.
对。
Yeah.
装甲列车。
Armored trains.
是的
Yeah.
装甲列车曾穿越美索不达米亚，去镇压巴比伦的叛乱。
Armored trains going to going across Mesopotamia to suppress rebellions in Babylon.
所以呢，这其实是个假设性的问题，我只是再提一下而已。
So I anyway, I I this is kind of you know, it's a what if, but I just throw that out that that once again.
因为这在我们这个时代，不也很典型吗？
Because it's very in our time, isn't it?
所有事物的源头都是希腊人。
Everything begins with the Greeks.
我觉得其实是从H开始的。
Oh, I think it began in H.
希腊人。
Griegs.
总之，抱歉，我刚才插话了。
So anyway, sorry, I've interrupted there.
所以蒸汽机呢。
So so so the steam engine.
那康沃尔地区也是这样，对吧？
So so that's Cornwall as well, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你想想特里维西克，你刚才没提到‘新奇’这个词，汤姆。
But if you think about Trevitik, but again, you mentioned not the word novelty there, Tom.
我觉得特里维西克的成果里，有一台叫《追上我你试试》的机器。
I think with with with the work of Trevitik, you've got his I think it's called Catch Me If You Can.
那是他早期的蒸汽机之一。
One of his one of his early steam engines
那他是什么时候的人？
So when is he?
那是十九世纪初，1804年。
This is very early nineteenth century, eighteen o four.
对。
Mhmm.
但人们觉得它只是个新奇玩意儿。
But it's seen as a novelty.
人们在伦敦坐它兜风，绕着一个圆形轨道跑。
People go on rides on it in London and so on, and it goes around a circular loop.
但我们还在等一个真正的技术突破，能把铁轨和蒸汽机真正结合起来，实现实用且商业可行的运输方式。
And but we're we're still waiting for that technological breakthrough to really combine the rails and the steam engine in a in a really practical and commercially viable way.
那这个突破是在哪儿发生的呢？
Where does that happen?
有趣的是，我觉得推动这个突破的关键是战争。
Well, I think the keys the spur for this is war, interestingly enough.
明白。
Okay.
拿破仑战争导致马匹短缺，也使得马饲料变得稀缺或者价格飙升。
New Napoleonic wars causes a shortage of horses and causes a shortage or a rise in the price of horse fodder.
所以人们开始寻找马匹动力的替代方案，毕竟我们之前聊过的所有马车都是靠马拉的。
So people are looking for alternatives to horsepower because all these wagon waves we've discussed were horse drawn.
那时候就是这么运作的。
That's how they worked.
你甚至会看到一些装置，比如乔治·斯蒂芬森后来发明的‘绅士车’——我们稍后会讲到他。在东北地区，人们利用铁路的坡度，靠重力让车辆滑行。斯蒂芬森设计了一种小车厢，把马关在里面，让它顺着下坡自由滑行，到了坡底再把马套上，拉车爬回上坡的另一侧。
You even have things called we'll come up with George Stephenson in a moment, but he invented the dandy wagon where you could play in places like the Northeast, could utilize railways just utilize gravity on railways to kind of go downhill, and he invented a dandy wagon to put the horse in a little cabin into freewheel down the hill, and then the horse would be kind of harnessed up to pull the thing back up the back the hill on the other side.
但真正推动这一切的，还是战争。
But it's it's it's the spur of war.
所以大约在1812年前后，出现了一些真正的突破。
So you get some real breakthroughs around 1812.
其实，一位名叫马修·默里的纽卡斯尔人发明了第一台蒸汽机车，不过当时他是在利兹工作。
There's a locomotive engine invented by a Newcastle man actually called Matthew Murray, but he's working in Leeds at the time.
这台机车被命名为‘萨拉曼卡号’，得名于半岛战争中刚刚发生的一场战役。
And this engine's called the Salamanca, named after the battle that had just taken place in the Peninsular War.
之后又出现了‘鼓风机比利号’，这是威廉·黑德利在廷河沿岸的金斯沃思进一步改进的成果。
And then you get Puffing Billy, which is a further development in by William Headley on the banks of the Tyne at Killingworth.
这 again 和煤矿是连在一起的。
Again, it's it's connected to a colliery.
我们怎么把煤矿口的煤运到泰恩河，方便出口呢？
How can we get this call from the pit head out for export in the River Tyne?
所以，丹，简单确认一下，这些设备通常都是靠煤驱动的，对吧？
So, Dan, just to quickly clarify, these things are generally driven by coal.
没错。
Is that right?
是的。
Yes.
所以这就是为什么我们之前提到的几乎所有例子都离不开煤。
So that's why you need I mean, almost all the instances we talked about.
比如特里维西克，他虽然是康沃尔人，但他设计的机器最初是为米瑟塔德维尔的一家煤矿开发的。
So the Trevithic, I mean, he was Cornish, but his thing was developed for a colliery, I think, in Myrtha Tidville.
对。
Yeah.
所以说，要不是因为这个，英国也不会变成这样。
So, basically, had it not been I mean, that's why it's Britain.
对吧？
Right?
大概就是因为煤炭吧。
Because of the coal, I guess.
是这样吗？
Is that is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
当时英国生产的煤炭量实在太大，运输起来特别困难。
Just the sheer volumes of coal that are being produced in Britain at the time and the the challenge of moving this stuff around.
其实，其他地方修建运河，也是为了解决这个问题。
I mean, there's some the the the developments of canals in other parts of the country were part of that solution.
但真正快速发展起来的是东北部，因为那里的地形根本不适合修运河。
It really takes off in the Northeast because the topography in the Northeast doesn't lend itself to canals very easily.
我们有泰恩河和威尔河这些可通航的河流，大部分地方只要把煤从山上滚下来，就能很方便地运出去，销往全国乃至世界各地。
We've got these navigable rivers, the Tyne and the Weir, where pretty much you could roll the coal down the hill, in most places and get it out for export to, the rest of the country and around the world.
但煤炭产量实在太大，运输成了大问题，这才推动了交通工具的革新，而当时正好有取之不尽的燃料供应。
But the sheer volume of coal, the challenge of shifting that stuff led to these led to these developments in in locomotion, and because he had the plentiful supply of the the fuel source, on hand.
这时候，乔治·斯蒂芬森登场了，我觉得他是英国历史上最重要的人物之一，而且几乎完全是靠自己奋斗成功的。
And this is when when George Stevenson enters the scene, I think, who is born of the Well, he's I think he's one of the great figures of, of British history, and he's he's he's an almost entirely self made man.
事实上，维多利亚时代倡导自助精神的先驱塞缪尔·斯迈尔斯，曾为他写过一本非常畅销的传记，那是在十八世纪。
In fact, Samuel Smiles, the early great proponent of Victorian self help, wrote an incredibly popular biography of him in the eighteenth
因为他写过一整套《工程师列传》，对吧？
because he did a whole series of Lives of the Engineers, didn't he?
没错。
Yes.
斯蒂芬森被视为典范，因为他出生在泰恩河谷一个叫威勒姆的煤矿村庄。
And and Stevenson's seen as a bit of a paragon because he's born in a coal mining village called Wylum in the Tyne Valley.
他父母都是文盲，他自己也直到十八岁才自学认字写字。
But usually his parents were illiterate, and and he was himself until he taught himself to to read and write at the age of 18.
那一带其实挺有文化的。
It was quite a literate area actually.
但乔治·斯蒂芬森还是像他父亲一样，很小就进了煤矿干活。
But nonetheless, George Stevenson, he entered the, mining trade like his father at a very early age.
斯蒂芬森最早在矿井里干的一份工作，简直危险得让人发笑，有人叫他‘火夫’，也有人叫他‘忏悔者’——因为煤矿里充满易燃气体，爆炸频发，死人是常事。
And one of Stevenson's first jobs in the pit is that almost laughably dangerous job, which is sometimes known as a fireman or, it was sometimes also described as a penitent, which was because coal mines are extraordinarily dangerous with flammable gases, and there was always explosions killing people.
他的任务就是穿上湿透的破布衣服，拿着点燃的火把，进去引爆那些积聚的易燃气体。
Stevenson's job was to dress himself in damp rags and damp clothing, go in with a lighted torch, and ignite pockets of flammable gas.
这就是他的工作。
That was his shock.
他那时候多大？
How old is he then?
他还不到二十岁就在干这个。
He's in his teens doing this.
天哪。
Oh my god.
健康与安全措施根本
The health and safety is
完全不是。
not Yeah.
绝对不是。
Absolutely not.
但他对蒸汽机产生了兴趣，因为它们常被用来排水。
But he got interested in steam engines because they're often used to pump out water.
矿井经常积水。
Pits are often flooding.
他就是那种天生就擅长修东西的人。
And he's just one of these these guys that sort of intuitively good at fixing stuff.
大家都叫他‘引擎医生’，因为他天生就有修理和修复的直觉。
He became known as an engine doctor because he had this kind of instinct on how to repair and fix.
他就像个爱捣鼓小发明的人。
He's like a tinkerer.
没错。
Exactly.
正是如此。
Exactly.
让我想起我父亲，他啥都能摆弄两下。
Rang to me a bit of my father, you know, he can kinda turn his hand to anything.
就是那种特别全能的人。
That sort of one of those sorts sorts of guys.
他没在哪儿正经学过这些技术。
So he wasn't taught anywhere how to do this.
完全是凭直觉就会做了。
He just kind of had this intuition to do it.
后来，他自然而然对机车引擎产生了兴趣。
And inevitably, he got interested in locomotive engines.
他的第一台机车是1814年造的，叫‘布吕歇尔’，以普鲁士元帅命名。
And his first was in 1814, and it was called the Blucher named after the Prussian field marshal.
所以这又跟战争扯上了关系。
So another link to to warfare.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以这时候他开始着手
So this is when he starts the
末尾的转向装置
end Turns
晚些时候完成。
out late.
明白。
Yeah.
所以是这样设定的。
So setting.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
事情就是这么延续下去的。
That's how it would carry on.
多米尼克，你的观点完全正确。
But your point Dominic is absolutely right.
他在早期研发这些机车引擎时，反复试验的关键问题是：怎样分配重量才能让机车稳定地在铁轨上行驶？
The tinkering aspect in a lot of his early his early work on these locomotive engines was on how to what was the best weight distribution to ensure that the thing traveled along the rails?
怎样才能让机车和车轮之间获得最好的抓地力，你知道的，就是引擎和转向架之间的配合。
What was the best method of adhesion, you know, with the engine and its and the trucks
因为有人认真提出过，英国之所以成为工业革命的中心，正是因为这一点。
because that's been seriously proposed as a reason why Britain is the center of the industrial revolution.
英国有一种喜欢动手改造、摆弄东西的文化。
It's that it had a culture of tinkering, kind of messing around, fiddling with stuff.
你刚才提到那些奇奇怪怪的装置之类的东西。
You said contraptions and things.
所以我们在2022年讨论这个特别合适，因为今年正好是他在铁路史上最重要突破的二百周年——赫顿铁路，就在桑德兰郊外。
So it's appropriate that we're meeting, discussing this in, 2022 because it's the two hundredth anniversary of what was probably his major breakthrough in in locomotive history is, the Hetton Railway which is just outside Sunderland.
那里还是鲍勃·佩斯利的故乡，安菲尔德球场的佩斯利大门上，就刻着赫顿镇的徽章，那个小镇位于达勒姆郡，徽章上画着那个年代的一台机车。
It's the birthplace of Bob Paisley actually, and on the, Paisley gates at Anfield, they've got the the shield of Hetton, which is a small town in County Durham, and on the shield is a locomotive from that from that period.
天哪。
Goodness.
那是斯蒂芬森设计的机车之一。
And it's one of it's one of Stephenson's.
赫顿铁路的独特之处在于，它是第一条专用铁路。
And what what's unique about the, the Hetton Railway is it's the first track.
全长八英里。
It's eight miles long.
主要是为了把煤矿里的煤从矿口运到韦尔河。
It's basically built to get coal, to the River Weir from the pit head.
但它是第一个完全依靠机车动力、而非马匹牵引的铁路。
But it's the first one that uses entirely locomotive power rather than horsepower.
现在已经不存在了。
It doesn't exist.
但还保留着一些遗迹。
There's parts of it still exist.
是的。
Yeah.
今年各地正举办一系列二百周年纪念活动来纪念这一事件。
And, there's a there's a there's a number of bicentenary events taking place this year to record that.
这确实是一个重大突破。
So it was a real breakthrough.
当然，斯蒂芬森父子当时还参与了矿井工程，为的是穿透赫顿下方的镁层，开采更深的煤层，光是这项工程就被视为惊人的技术成就。
But of course, Stevenson and his son Robert were involved in some of the the mining engineering at the same time to penetrate beyond the magnesium layer, underneath Hetton to get at the riches of the coal underneath, which is that alone was seen as an amazing engineering breakthrough.
随后，他们又发明了机车和配套的铁路线。
And then they invented the the locomotive and the railway line to go with it as well.
他们确实是真正的先驱。
So they were real pioneers.
那他是什么时候开始做那些让他真正出名的事情的呢？
And so what point do we have the does he start doing the the stuff that he's really famous?
就是那种《Lady Bird》书里提到的内容。
You know, the sort of Lady Bird book.
火箭。
The rocket.
火箭。
The rocket.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
我刚才想的就是这个。
That's what I was thinking.
这个
The
利物浦和曼彻斯特
Liverpool Manchester.
嗯，首先是斯托克顿和达灵顿铁路。
And the sort of well, we're gonna so the first, you have the Stockton and Darlington Railways.
这个是不是比利物浦和曼彻斯特更早？
Does come before Liverpool, Manchester?
是吧？
It does, doesn't it?
1825年。
1825.
那这里面有什么故事呢，丹？
So what's the story there, Dan?
情况也差不多。
Well, it's a similar one.
他们需要把南达勒姆地区，比如比绍普奥克兰和希爾德附近开采的煤运出来。
They want they need to get the coal out of the fairly isolated, part of South Durham around Bishop Auckland and Shield and that sort of area.
他们还想通过蒂斯河把煤运出去。
And they want to export it out of the Tees, the River Tees.
于是他们修建了一条铁路，叫斯托克顿和达灵顿铁路，但实际上线路还往内陆延伸到了煤矿区。
So they construct a railway between they call it Stockton and Darlington but it goes a bit further than that inland towards the colliery districts.
斯蒂芬森被委以重任。
And Stevenson's given the job.
他造出了著名的机车，名叫‘机车一号’。
He builds the famous locomotive called Locomotion.
我有个问题，是不是因为这个，所有机车才叫‘机车’的？
Is that is that why here's a question.
还是说在那之前，机车就已经有这个名字了？
Is that why all locomotives are called locomotives from that name, or were they already called locomotives?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
我不想去博德利图书馆做这方面的研究。
I'm not interested to go to the Bodleian and research that.
我得去博德利图书馆查一下，或者说是……
I'll have to look that up in the Bodleian or yeah.
不是的。
No.
我的意思是，一定是这样。
I mean, must be
它们之所以叫机车，是因为它们能产生运动。
called they must be called locomotive engines because they're generating locomotion.
没错。
Yes.
确实如此。
Indeed.
这台机车特别的地方在于，它不只是像以前的矿井铁路那样拉货。
And what's unique about this one, what it was that it wasn't just pulling freight, which previous colliery railways had done.
他们给这台机车挂了一节客运车厢，叫‘实验号’，于是人们就坐上去体验了。
This one they attached a passenger carriage which they called the experiment and so people rode along.
你不可能所有人都
You wouldn't all
登上‘实验号’。
aboard the experiment.
能出什么问题呢？
What could possibly go wrong?
但真出什么事了吗？
But did did anything go wrong?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
那是个
Was a
一切都挺顺利的。
good was all fine.
就是这么回事。
Thing.
这是否就是他产生这个想法的由来？
Is that what then gives him the idea for
正是这个成就让他声名鹊起，因为不仅非常成功，而且还是当时最长的。
Well, it's what makes his name because it's such a successful, and it's the longest.
我正想回忆一下斯托克顿和达灵顿铁路的确切里程。
I'm I'm trying to remember the exact distance to the Stockton and Darlington.
它大概是……其实我们说话的时候我真该去查一下，不过……
It's it's and maybe I should really Google that while we're talking but
从底部开始。
Off the bottom.
对。
Yeah.
两地之间的距离大概是二十英里左右。
It's a number of miles between I think it's about round about 20 miles distance.
我觉得这个事件应该发生在诺森伯兰启蒙时期，跟苏格兰启蒙运动差不多是同一段时间，我之前聊过这个。
And, you know, I I would locate this in you know, I think I talked when we were last on about the Northumbrian enlightenment, which takes place roughly the same time as the Scottish enlightenment.
那是一个只能用神圣来形容的时刻。
And, in a moment that I think you could only describe as sacral.
哦，丹。
Oh, Dan.
那台引擎
The engine
这也太明显了吧。
That was shameless.
引擎，还有火光，我以为我们
The engine the fire I thought we
在铁路主题的播客里能躲开这种话题呢。
were safe from that in a railways podcast.
机车引擎里的火，是靠阳光点燃的
The the fire in the engine of locomotion is lit from the rays of the sun
是的，没错。
Oh, yes.
靠火车司机用的烟斗透镜，那是一种小放大镜，以前人们用它来点烟。
By the engine driver's pipe glass, which is a little sort of magnifying glass that people used to used to light their pipes.
这太有意思了。
That is
我喜欢这个说法。
I love that.
这真棒。
That's great.
这有多浪漫啊？
How romantic is that?
是不是特别棒？
That's fabulous, isn't it?
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所以他因为在斯托克顿和达灵顿铁路上出名，接着就进入了利物浦和曼彻斯特铁路的雷恩希尔试验。
So he he makes his name on the Stockton and Darlington, and then we're get heading into the Rainhill trials in the Liverpool and Manchester Railway.
所以这条铁路建好了，他们接下来是想做什么？
So they've set up that railway, and they're what?
他们是想通过试验找出最好的机车吗？
They're running trials to find out the best engine?
差不多就是这个意思吧？
Is that basically what that is?
我刚才说的是这个吗？
Am I talking about?
他们需要的是一个高效且能商业运营的方案。
They want an efficient, commercially viable means.
谁说的？
Who say?
是商界人士，你可以这么说，他们认为
It's the it's the the the the business community, you might say, of
曼彻斯特和利物浦。
Of Manchester, Liverpool.
曼彻斯特和利物浦，这可是十九世纪真正的核心地带。
Manchester, Liverpool, which is the real kind of cockpit of Absolutely.
十九世纪。
The nineteenth century.
所以他们一直在关注斯蒂芬森的进展，对吧？
So so they they they have been looking at what Stephenson's been doing, have they?
是的。
Yeah.
而且他们想到，我们不仅能运货，还能在曼彻斯特和利物浦之间运送乘客。
And thinking we can we can carry passengers as well as freight from Manchester to Liverpool.
对。
Yeah.
尤其是货运方面，这跟纺织业息息相关。
I mean, the the particularly the freight aspect, again, because of the the textile industry.
你知道，原材料是运到利物浦的。
You know, the raw material comes as Liverpool.
然后从那里
It and it
但客运这一块也很重要。
But but but the passenger element of it is important as well.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，这
I mean, that that's
是的。
Yeah.
其实这一点常常被忽略，早在十九世纪初，英国的道路网络就已经相当发达了。
And it's it's sometimes overlooked, actually by the early nineteenth century, the road network in in Britain is pretty advanced.
当时已经有了沥青和碎石路面这些技术进步。
You know, you had the advances of, the invention of, tarmac and tarmac macadamised roads and all that sort of thing.
但这些道路越来越拥堵了。
But they were increasingly congested.
它们仍然很慢，毕竟还是靠马车拉货。
They were still pretty slow because, again, it's horse drawn carriages and so on.
所以人们开始寻找一种大规模的公共交通系统，来连接这两个至关重要的工业和经济中心。
So they're looking for a mass transit system, I suppose you'd call it, between these two vitally important in, industrial and economic centers.
于是就有了雷恩希尔试验，斯蒂芬森提交并参赛了一台叫‘火箭号’的机车，实际上这台机车是由他儿子罗伯特设计的，而罗伯特在很多方面甚至是一位更出色的工程师。
And hence the, the Rainhill trials, which Stevenson submits and enters, an engine called the rocket, which is actually designed by his son Robert, who is is just, in in fact, an even more impressive engineer in many respects.
这台机车在1829年的比赛中赢了。
And that wins the the trial in '8 this is 1829.
‘火箭号’的最高时速达到了29英里，这速度简直前所未有。
And rocket reaches a top speed of 29 miles an hour, which is just no one had
从来没人达到过这么快的速度吧？
ever Nobody so nobody had ever gone that fast?
从来没有。
Never.
以前从来没人跑过这么快？
No human had ever gone that fast?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
马根本跑不了这么快。
You know, horse can't gallop that fast.
简直不可思议。
It's just incredible.
你看看当时的记载，人们都惊呆了，对吧？
Because you read the, the accounts of it, and and people are kind of blown away, aren't they?
是的。
Yeah.
他们都被震撼得说不出话了，对吧？
They've been swooning, aren't they?
他们根本无法理解。
They can't comprehend it.
我的意思是，就连罗伯特·路易斯·史蒂文森，那都是很久以后了，他还写过一句名言，比精灵还快，比女巫还快。
I mean, so so even, Robert Louis Stevenson, I mean, much, much later, and he has this famous phrase, faster than fairies, faster than witches.
那种感觉，简直像超自然的敬畏。
Just kind of a sense of the almost supernatural awe.
是的。
Yeah.
我敢说，这近乎神圣吗？
Dare I say sacral?
但我们早就体验过了。
Well, we've had it already.
这算不上神圣。
It's not sacral.
那种感觉，已经消失了。
It's it's That was lost.
你可能会
You might
还不如直接说，这是一种诡异感。
as well just say It's an eeriness.
那种诡异的氛围，对吧？
Quality of the eerie, isn't it?
而且确实如此。
And Yeah.
所以这就是为什么，我认为那种对速度的兴奋感，正是1830年那条铁路开通时引发巨大轰动的原因之一。
So that's why presumably the part but, I mean, the the the sense of excitement at the speed is is presumably one reason why the opening of that railway, which is a year later in 1830 Mhmm.
那是一场盛大的公共活动。
Is this colossal public occasion.
某种程度上，这是维多利亚时代最盛大的公共事件之一。
I mean, one of the great Victorian public occasions in some ways.
那么，谁出席了那次开通仪式呢？
And who comes to that opening event?
嗯，丹应该知道这事。
Well, I mean, Dan will know this.
所以首相都亲自出席了，可见这事儿有多大的分量。
So the prime minister I mean, it's big enough that the prime minister goes.
对吧？
Right?
威灵顿公爵也来了。
The duke of Wellington.
是的。
Yeah.
说起来，我们之前还聊过战争中的马球比赛。
I mean, going back, we talked about the polo in the wars.
蓝头发。
Blue hair.
不是。
No.
我们有威灵顿。
We've got Wellington.
是的。
Yeah.
我们有这位战争英雄，如今却成了相当保守的首相。
We've got the hero of the wars who is now, you know, a very sort of reactionary prime minister.
他一出现，对吧？
He pitches up, doesn't he?
然后你看到一个精彩的场景，我觉得那是铁路的正式登场。
And you have this amazing scene, which enshrines the railways, I think.
在公众印象里，最突出的莫过于第一条客运铁路的首次试运行，结果有人丧生了。
I I would say more than anything else in the public imagination is you got the very first trial of this passenger railway, and somebody dies.
丹，你来讲讲这个故事吗？
Dan, do you wanna tell the story?
我觉得你很清楚那些细节吧，多米尼克？
I think you know the gory details, don't you, Dominic?
那位利物浦的议员是……
About the the the MP for Liverpool was
我喜欢讲游戏的故事，哦，抱歉。
I I enjoy I enjoy stories about gaming and Oh, sorry.
是的。
Yeah.
我挺喜欢那个故事的。
I enjoyed that.
我觉得这些故事特别适合孩子。
I I think they're very good stories for children.
而且现在，正规的书店里都能找到很棒的儿童历史读物，这个就不多说了。
And, of course, you know, if all in all good bookshops, you will find excellent history books these days for children, which we don't need to go into.
有个人叫霍斯金森。
So there's a fellow called his name is Hoskinson.
是威廉·霍布斯鲍姆吧？
It's William Hobsbawm, isn't it?
他算是个一线政客，但跟威灵顿公爵的关系并不怎么铁。
And he is a he's been a sort of frontline politician, but he he wasn't a great ally of the Duke of Wellington.
所以自从威灵顿公爵当了首相，他就稍微退居二线了。
So he stepped back a bit since the Duke of Wellington became PM.
而且他身体不太好，医生都劝他，别去参加那个开幕活动了。
And he's been ill, and he think and his doctors actually say to him, don't go to the opening of this
他刚做完手术，是吧？
He just had surgery, hadn't
他？
he?
他刚做了肾脏手术
He just had surgery for a kidney
在英国。
in The UK.
真是个笨手笨脚的人。
Very clumsy man.
是的。
Yes.
他总是跌跌撞撞、站不稳，这一点在故事里挺关键的。
He's gonna be He's always falling over and losing his balance, which is an important aspect of the story.
所以他去，特别是因为他还想拉近关系——他也是利物浦的议员。
So he goes especially because he wants to get in with he's the MP for Liverpool as well.
这可是很重要的部分。
I mean, that's a crucial part of it.
所以大家自然觉得他应该到场。
So it's expected that he's there.
于是他坐上了专门为威灵顿公爵和宾客们准备的专列。
So he goes, and he goes in this special train that's been built for the duke of Wellington and all his guests.
这列火车是由一台机车牵引的，你一定会感兴趣，丹，如果你还不知道的话——它叫
And that train is pulled by this you'll enjoy this, Dan, if you don't know it already, by a locomotive called
“北方人号”。
The Northumbrian.
“北方人号”。
The Northumbrian.
这车有多厉害？
How good is
对吧？
that?
这列火车是由乔治·斯蒂芬森亲自驾驶的。
So that's been driven by Stevenson himself, by George Stevenson.
还有什么比乔治·斯蒂芬森驾驶‘北方人号’更北英格兰的呢？
Could there be anything more Northumbrian than George
斯蒂芬森驾驶着一列
Stevenson driving a
‘北方人号’的火车门？
train door with Northumbrian?
火车轰隆隆地开着，停在一个叫帕克赛德的地方，那是个车站，靠近圣...
It's chugging along, and it stops at a place called Parkside, which is a station called Parkside, which is near St.
海伦斯。
Helens.
到了那里，霍斯金森下了车，好多人沿着轨道走过去，想跟威灵顿公爵握手——他大概探出身子，或者大家凑过去吧。
And there, Hoskinson gets out, lots of people kind of go down the track to shake hands with the duke of Wellington, presumably, he's leaning out of his compartment or they're kind of leaning in or something.
然后霍斯金森也过去做了这件事。
And Hoskinson goes and does this.
对他来说，能跟威灵顿公爵握个手，把过去的恩怨放下，特别重要。
It's very important to him that he can shake hands with Wellington and kind of bury the hatchet or whatever.
这就像是杰里米·亨特和鲍里斯·约翰逊同乘一列火车。
It's like I it's like sort of if Jeremy Hunt was on a train with Boris Johnson.
他特意走下轨道去跟对方握手之类的。
He goes on the track to shake hands with him or something.
接着他们看见火箭号从对面驶来，两条轨道离得特别近，对吧？
And then they see the rocket coming the other way, and the the tracks are quite close together, aren't they?
我觉得两条轨道之间大概只有四五英尺宽。
I think there's about four or five feet between the tracks.
所以火箭车正从对面驶来，有人喊：有列车接近了。
So the rocket is coming the other way, and somebody says, an engine is approaching.
各位小心。
Take care, gentlemen.
请注意间隙。
Mind the gap.
是的。
Yeah.
说白了，就是注意间隙。
Basically, mind the gap.
大多数在附近逗留的人立刻离开了轨道。
And most of the people who are sort of loitering about immediately get off the track.
但霍斯金森呢，这里就显出他笨手笨脚了。
But Hoskinson, and this is where you're clumsy, he's clumsy.
莫名其妙地，就像克鲁索探长那样，他不停地摔倒。
So unaccountably, rather like sort of inspector Cluso style or something, he falls he keeps falling over.
我读过博德利图书馆。
I I read Bodleian Library.
他两次想离开轨道，却总是又跌回轨道上。
He made, he made, two attempts to get off the track but kept kind of falling back onto it.
火车——火箭——场面彻底乱了套。
So the train the rockets The hilarity ensues.
火箭越来越近，周围人都急得喊：‘老兄，快离开轨道啊！’可他就是东倒西歪，跌跌撞撞。
The rockets is getting closer and closer, people are sort of saying, for god's sake, man, get off the tracks, and he's just falling over and shambling about.
最后，他居然想到，只要贴着威灵顿公爵的火车趴下，中间的空隙完全够火箭通过。
And, eventually, there's this terrible scene where he decides that the the the way to he he could have flattened himself against the duke of Wellington's train, and there was enough space to to for the other train, the rocket, to pass.
可他最后干的事，却是想钻进威灵顿公爵的车厢，整个场面简直像一部007电影。
But what he ends up doing is sort of trying to get into the Duke of Wellington's carriage, and then it turns into something from almost like a Bond film.
有人拼命想把他拉进车厢里，他却死死拽着不放。
So he's he grabs the people sort of are trying to drag him in.
但威灵顿公爵只是对他说：‘我们这就开了。’
But Duke Wellington actually says to him, we seem to be going on.
你最好赶紧进去。
You'd better step in.
所以，和首相的这次会面，到目前为止，
So so this sort of great meeting with the prime minister hasn't quite, you
并没有按计划进行。
know, at this point going to plan.
根本就没按计划走。
Not not really going to plan.
他在首相面前丢脸了。
You're he's sort of embarrassed himself in front of the prime minister.
霍斯基森想爬进车厢，但没成功。
Hoskinson tries to clamber into the carriage, but but he doesn't make it.
他又会往后摔倒。
And some people he's gonna fall backwards again.
有人冲他喊：天哪，霍斯基森先生，稳住点！
Somebody shouts to him, for god's sake, mister Hoskinson, be firm.
就在那时，霍斯基森一把抓住了车厢的门。
And at that point, Hoskinson grabs the door of the carriage.
就在火箭冲到他们跟前时，门被他带着猛地甩开，直接挡在了火箭的前进路线上。
And just as the rocket reaches them, the door swings open with him on it into the path of the rocket.
他摔倒在铁轨上，火车从他的双腿上碾了过去。
And he falls down on the track, and the rocket runs over his legs.
你知道他说了什么吗？
And you know what he says?
人们赶紧跑过去把他抬起来，他却说：‘这可真是莎士比亚式的结局啊，我完了。’
He says they they they they run and pick him up, and he says, for a Shakespearean, you know, I am slain.
他说：‘我这一生算是到头了。’
He says, it's all over with me.
快去叫我的妻子来，我或许还能撑一会儿。
Bring my wife, and I may die.
后来，他真的走了。
And he does.
不过他最后确实这么做了。
And it well, he does eventually.
奇怪的是，当时人们说，他一开始看起来没受多大伤，火车对他的腿造成的损害也比预期的轻。
The weird thing is that people said that he he he didn't seem that hurt at first, and the train did less damage to his legs than people thought was likely.
这事儿挺怪的，跟威灵顿公爵还有不少人断腿的事儿是不是有点像？
That's kinda weird thing, isn't it, with the Duke of Wellington and people losing their legs?
天哪，又来了。
Lord who's Oh, not again.
是厄克斯布里奇吧？
Uxbridge, isn't it?
对。
Yeah.
厄克斯布里奇勋爵。
Lord Uxbridge.
天啊，先生。
My god, sir.
我的腿没了。
I've lost my leg.
天哪，
Good god,
先生。
sir.
您还真是这样。
So you have.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这个故事的教训就是，千万别站在
Basically, the lesson of this story is never stand
旁边
next to
威灵顿公爵。
the duke of Wellington.
因为你可能会失去双腿。
Because you're gonna lose your legs.
因为你
Because you're
会失去你的
gonna lose your
但实际情况是，多米尼克，这件事的影响确实如此巨大。
But the new is it right, Dominic, that the impact of this is Yeah.
大到奇怪的是，它反而成了一种绝佳的广告，用于
So huge that, weirdly, it acts as a kind of amazing advert So for
这个故事最奇怪的地方就在于此。
you would think this is the weird thing about this story.
你可能会以为，出了这种事之后，没人敢再坐火车了。
You would think people wouldn't want to get on the train after this.
但恰恰相反，人们反而疯狂追捧。
But, no, the the the Mad for it.
事故发生后，铁路系统挤满了乘客。
The the railway is absolutely deluged with people afterwards.
是这样吧，丹？
Isn't that right, Dan?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这简直大获成功。
It's an enormous success.
这成了轰动一时的事件，对吧？
It's it's a it's a sensation, isn't it?
就是因为太刺激了。
It's because it's so exciting.
从一开始，它就吸引了这么多名流。
It's attracting all these VIPs right from the very start.
你也会有可能失去双腿。
You too could lose your legs.
我觉得我之前在讲工业革命的那一期里提到过这件事。
Have have I I know I mentioned this, I think, in the Industrial Revolution episode we did.
你们俩有没有看过一部叫《世界起飞之日》的纪录片？讲的是火箭首次在曼彻斯特到利物浦的铁路上运行的那一天。
But have have either of you seen a documentary called The Day the World Took Off, which is about it's about the day the the rocket goes on its first journey along the the Manchester Liverpool Railway.
它把那一天定为工业世界真正腾飞的关键时刻，画面特别讲究，火箭驶过马车，人们把礼帽抛向空中。
And it it it pin it's kind of identifies it as the the key moment when, know, industrial world gets lift off and has these wonderfully kind of formalized scenes of the rocket going past horses, people throwing their toppers in
空中。
the air.
汤姆，你演过
Tom, you've played
太精彩了。
It's so good.
太棒了。
It's so good.
你不是在屏幕上演过诺曼底的威廉吗？
The duke of you played William of Normandy on screen, haven't you?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得你演威灵顿公爵再合适不过了。
I think you'd be an excellent duke of Wellington.
谢谢，多姆。
Oh, thanks, Dom.
没错。
Yes.
如果我们能重现一下就好了。
I think if you were the we could reenact it.
你可以演威灵顿。
You could be Wellington.
是的。
Yeah.
我演，而丹应该演巴顿·布鲁内尔吧？
I I play And Dan would be isn't Barton Brunell?
嗯，不是。
Well, no.
丹。
Dan.
我觉得乔治·史蒂文森合适。
I'd be think George Stevenson.
乔治·史蒂文森。
George Stevenson.
对。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
他就是乔治·史蒂文森。
He'd be George Stevenson.
我觉得这简直太棒了。
I think it would be absolutely splendid.
我觉得等其他部分都成了历史，接下来就该拍电影了，没错。
I think once the rest is history moves on to film Yes.
这应该作为我们的第一部作品。
That should be our first production.
嗯，好吧。
Well, I okay.
那我们三个人什么时候再见面？
So when will we three meet again?
我觉得一旦见面，我们就 Definitely 应该把这部戏搬上舞台
I think when we do meet, we should definitely stage
对。
Yes.
这
The
威廉·霍布斯鲍姆的去世。
death of William Hobsbawm.
是的。
Yeah.
咱们去车站试试，看看效果如何。
Let's do that at the station and see how how it goes.
什么
What
能出什么差错呢？
could possibly go wrong?
我觉得就以这个精彩的观点为结尾，咱们现在该休息一下了。
I think on that on that stunning note, we should possibly take a break here.
回来之后，我们来看看维多利亚时代英国铁路的迅猛发展。
And when we come back, we should look at, the explosive growth of the railways in Victorian Britain.
一会儿见。
See you in a minute.
让这伟大的世界，永远在变革的回响轨道上运转。
Let the great world spin forever down the ringing grooves of change.
这是阿尔弗雷德·丁尼生1842年诗作《洛克斯利大厅》里的句子。
That was, Alfred Tennyson in his 1842 poem Loxley Hall.
这句话特别能体现维多利亚时代那种充满活力、不断变革与扩张的精神。
And it's one of the the kind of the lines that sums up the sense of dynamism and change and growth that Victorian Britain represented.
但事实上，这种理解完全是错的。
But it was actually founded on a complete misapprehension.
丁尼生曾写道：1830年我第一次坐火车从利物浦到曼彻斯特时，以为车轮是在轨道槽里运行的。
Tennyson wrote, when I went by the first train from Liverpool to Manchester in 1830, I thought that the wheels ran in a groove.
那天晚上漆黑一片，车站周围人山人海，根本看不清车轮，我就由此产生了这个想法。
It was a black night, and there was such a vast crowd around the train at the station that we could not see the wheels, and then I made this line.
所以，丹，泰纳森对这件事的理解完全错了，这反而让我们真切感受到，1830年史蒂芬森和‘火箭号’所展示的这项技术，在当时有多新奇、多令人费解。
So, Dan, the fact that Tennyson gets it so wrong gives you a kind of brilliant sense of just how novel and strange this technology that we're seeing showcased in 1830 with Stevenson and the rocket and everything.
对当时的人来说，这实在太不可思议了。
Just how strange it was to people.
确实很奇怪。
It was strange.
但也让人激动不已。
It was thrilling.
简直令人兴奋到极点。
It was incredibly exciting.
我这里有一段伊丽莎白·巴雷特·勃朗宁在19世纪50年代写的自由诗《奥罗拉·李》，其中不少地方都带着一丝微妙的性感意味。
And I've got a a passage from, Elizabeth Barrett Browning's kind of blank verse poem Aurora Lee, which is written in the eighteen fifties, and there's almost a slightly sexual tinge to a lot of this.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
我很喜欢这段。
I like that.
我得提醒各位听众做好心理准备，因为她写的是火车穿行隧道的情景——要是你最近看过《西北偏北》里卡莉·格兰特的那场戏，一定会笑出声。
I've I've warned listeners to brace themselves for this because she's she's writing about the and this if anyone seen the final scene of North by Northwest with Carrie Grant, which I saw recently laughed out loud.
哦，没错。
Oh, yes.
但她写的是她乘坐火车穿过的那些隧道。
But but she's writing about the tunnels that she traveled through.
我们待会儿可能会谈到这背后的土木工程方面。
We might get on to the kind of the civil engineering aspect of this in a moment.
她写道：‘列车如闪电般楔入隧道，被四柄巨锤猛击穿岩，岩体震颤，黑暗的肠腹裂开，瞬间透进光亮；列车呼啸而入，脉动着力量，颤抖却坚定，尖锐的汽笛嘶鸣着，又被深沉的黑暗吞没；我们屏息凝神，呼吸沉重，仿佛被压在群山之下，如同远古巨人的噩梦终于破土而出，迎向破晓的晨光。’
So she writes, and shot through tunnels like a lightning wedge by great four hammers driven through the rock, which quivering through the intestine blackness splits and lets in at once the train swept in a throb with effort, trembling with resolve, the fierce denouncing whistle wailing on and dying off smothered in the shuddering dark, while we self awed drew troubled breath, oppressed as other titans underneath the pile, a nightmare of the mountains out at last to catch the dawn afloat upon the land.
我的意思是，简直像在飞翔。
I mean, flying.
这段写得太棒了。
That's great stuff.
这就像《当哈利遇到莎莉》里梅格·瑞恩的那段场景。
That's like the Meg Ryan scene when Harry met Sally.
太精彩了。
It's amazing.
因为利物浦到曼彻斯特的这条线路本身也面临着不少艰巨的工程挑战。
So because the the, the Liverpool to Manchester Lane had some pretty formidable civil engineering challenges to overcome itself.
你知道的，比如南兰开夏的沼泽地，还有那些湿软的地面之类的。
You know, they were the mosses of South Lancashire, the marshy ground and and so on.
但接着你就会看到像罗伯特·史蒂文森这样的人物，我之前提到过他，确实如此。
But then you start to see through figures like Robert Stevenson, who I mentioned earlier, who Yeah.
他受过良好的教育，跟他父亲不一样。
Did have an education unlike his father.
事实上，乔治·史蒂文森被人称为‘Geordie’史蒂文森，因为东北部的人习惯把乔治叫成这个昵称。
In fact, George Stevenson was known as Geordie Stevenson because men in the Northeast called George get that nickname.
我认为，‘Geordie’这个称呼之所以用来指代东北地区的人，其中一个比较合理的说法是，乔治经常要去议会为铁路建设项目作证，争取获得议会法案的批准。
One of the more plausible origins, I think, of the Geordie descriptor for people from the Northeast is because George was had to go down to parliament to give evidence often for railway building schemes to get act of parliament through.
别人都听不懂他在说什么。
And people couldn't understand him.
所以人们总是嘲笑他的盖尔口音。
So they they would mock his Geordie accent.
还有其他说法，比如跟雅各布派叛乱时期对汉诺威的乔治们忠诚有关，或者是因为乔治·史蒂文森发明的矿工灯，那种灯叫‘盖尔灯’。
So so there's other theories that it was because of loyalty to the the Hanoverian Georges in the Jacobite rebellions and or it was it was George Stevenson's miner's lamp, which is known as a Geordie lamp.
但我个人更喜欢这个说法。
But I quite like this one.
他特意让罗伯特·史蒂文森接受了良好的绅士教育，比如去爱丁堡大学读书之类的。
So he took care to make sure that Robert Stevenson had a proper gentleman's education, Edinburgh University and so on.
他比老乔治要文雅多了。
And he he was a bit more refined than than old Geordie.
但罗伯特·史蒂文森正是土木工程领域的先驱之一。
But Robert Stevenson was one of these pioneers of of civil engineering.
你知道吗，伯明翰外的基尔斯比隧道，曾被称作自金字塔建造以来最伟大的土木工程。
You know, the Killsby Tunnels outside, Birmingham, which were described as the greatest civil engineering project since the building of the Great Pyramids.
这些堤坝、土方工程、高架桥和桥梁，简直不可思议。
All these embankments and earthworks and viaducts and bridges, just incredible.
所以，丹，这笔钱是谁出的？
So, Dan, who who who is who is paying for this?
我的意思是，资金到底从哪儿来？
I mean, how where is the money coming from it?
这些铁路线路又是怎么铺起来的？
And how is it that these lines are being laid?
关于资本主义的来源，目前有个很有趣且热烈的争论，跟奴隶制有关。
Well, the source of the capitalism, there's an interesting and pretty lively debate at the moment that this about slavery.
对。
Yes.
奴隶主获得的巨额收益，有很大一部分最终流入了铁路投资。
That that the the payoffs to form a slave owners, many of much of that capital found its way in in in investment into the railways.
同时，一个日益壮大的中产阶级也在寻找投资渠道。
But there's also a growing middle class that are looking for places to invest their money.
还有那些工业家本人，他们清楚地看到更高效交通带来的商业优势。
There's the industrialists themselves who can see the commercial advantages of much better communications.
而且
And
所以，比如曼彻斯特到利物浦这条线，你们已经建起来了。
So but but so it's but you've so you've got the, the the Manchester Liverpool one.
然后其他公司也觉得这主意不错。
But then is it other companies are are saying that's a great idea.
我们也想搞一个，于是就开始建自己的铁路公司。
Let's we wanna get this, and we'll start building our company.
是的。
Yes.
所以当时有大量
So so there there's a lot of
那有没有什么监管呢
And is there any regulation
没有。
No.
说实话，这简直是一片混乱。
It's a bit of a free for all, to be honest.
于是像乔治·哈德森这样的铁路大亨就逐渐冒了出来。
And you start to get these hierarchical figures emerging like George Hudson, the railway king.
实际上，这些铁路的发展根本没有统一的指导。
There's no guiding hand really over the development of these.
我的意思是，大型土木工程项目和铁路建设确实需要议会批准，但根本不存在什么中央规划。
I mean, major major civil engineering projects and building of railways require acts of parliament, but it's there's there's no central planning to this.
这正是罗伯特·史蒂文森开始感到不安的原因，他看出事情可能会变得一团糟。
And that's one of the things that start to perturb Robert Stevenson who could see that this was becoming a bit of a a bit of a mess potentially.
关于标准轨距的争论也一直很激烈。
And there's also the lively debates about the standard gauge standard gauge.
抱歉。
Sorry.
明白了。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
所以斯蒂文森那个是窄轨，对吧？
So it's so the the Stevenson one is narrow, isn't it?
然后
And then
是的。
Yeah.
四英尺八英寸半，有人说这跟古代马车轮距一样，是不是太巧了？
It's four foot eight and a half inches, which is people have said, isn't it a coincidence that it's this same width as chariot wheels and so on?
但其实他们只是把马车当原型来设计车厢，所以宽度差不多是必然的。
But, basically, they were they were using horse drawn vehicles as the prototypes for their carriages, so it's pretty inevitable that it's gonna be that width.
而布鲁内尔则支持宽轨，我记得差不多有七英尺宽。
Whereas Brunel favored the the broad gauge, which is, I think, now almost seven feet wide.
再说到议会法案，这明显是腐败的温床，对吧？
And going back to the acts of parliament, I mean, that's obviously a massive bonanza for corruption, isn't it?
因为说白了，你得找人替你提出法案，好让你这样的铁路大亨能拿到土地，获得……
Because, basically, you need somebody to introduce a bill on your behalf to allow you as the capitalist, as the as the the railway baron, to get the land, to get the
合适的土地。
right land.
多米尼克，我们在Discord上收到一个问题，只有历史俱乐部的会员才能看到。
Dominic, we got a question from on the Discord, which you get if you're a member of the rest of history club.
这广告打得真不错。
Oh, very good advertising.
干得漂亮，汤姆。
Very good Tom.
铁路是怎么获得穿越私人土地的通行权的？
How did railroads gain right of way through private land?
这个过程是政治化的吗？
Was this a politicized process?
当时有腐败行为吗？
Did corruption occur?
我觉得肯定有腐败，对吧？
I imagine corruption did occur, did it?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，当时发生了好几起大丑闻。
I mean, it was a that there were huge scandals.
在十九世纪中期，确实有一种普遍的感觉。
One, they're in the sort of there was this sort of sense in the mid nineteenth century.
丹，如果我说得不对请纠正，当时的政界人物和铁路企业家的利益早就搅在一起了，那些议会里的大人物就是靠收钱来推动这些法案的。
Correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, but the politics had been you know, the the the interests of the kind of the the the entrepreneurs, the railway entrepreneurs, had had enmeshed with, you know, the sort of parliamentary bigwigs who were just sort of pocketing money in order to push through these bills.
多米尼克，我说得没错吧？
Isn't that right, Dom?
差不多就是这样。
Pretty much.
我觉得，当时有大量资金在合法和非法地流转。
A lot of money was changing hands, legitimately and illegitimately, I think.
而且，贵族们一开始也意识到了这个问题，我想他们当中很多人最初对铁路穿过自己的土地还挺抵触的。
And and and also the the aristocracy cottoned on to the fact initially, I think many of them were quite hostile to what's this, you know, coming across my land.
但如果没有地下矿产，纯粹的农业用地价值其实正在下滑。
But the value of just pure agricultural land, if it didn't have mineral resources underneath it, was declining.
不过，像利物浦外围的德比伯爵这样的大贵族，他们是兰开夏郡的显赫家族。
But actually access rights over your land, like the earls of Derby outside Liverpool, you know, they're great Lancashire barons.
他们靠允许铁路通过自己的土地，赚得盆满钵满。
They made a packet from, you know, having that access over their land.
所以这简直是一场意外的暴富机会。
So it's a bit of a bonanza.
而且据说，当初规划利物浦—曼彻斯特铁路路线时，勘测人员还带了一群拳击手当保镖。
And it because apparently, initially, when they were mapping out the line of the Liverpool Manchester Railway, the the surveyors, took a posse of prizefighters.
没错。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
这是个有趣的故事。
That's a good story.
是的。
Yeah.
去做什么？
To do what?
像是为了打架做准备
To, like, punch up sort of
不，是为了保护他们，给他们护航。
Well, to to guard them, to protect them.
对。
Yeah.
显然，这里头有很多
Well, obviously, there's a lot
土地所有者的反对态度非常强烈。
of landed interest was so hostile.
丹说，确实存在阻力。
There is resistance, Dan says.
举个著名的例子，像剑桥这样的地方，火车站离市中心挺远的，因为当地人就是想把铁路远远地隔开。
I mean, famously, there are places like Cambridge, where the railway station is quite a way out of the town center because, basically, people wanted to keep out at arm's length.
还有《米德尔马契》里那句台词，你知道，书里有不少人对铁路充满敌意，这算是其中一个支线情节。
And that quote from Middlemarch, you know, there are a lot of people who were always you know, one of the sort of subplots of Middlemarch is hostility to the railways.
我的意思是，那时候人们觉得铁路会带来现代化，但又担心这会毁掉社区，破坏传统，诸如此类的想法。
You know, I think that the thought that it's gonna bring modernity, but but that being a bad thing and destroy your community and all that sort of stuff.
十九世纪中期，确实有这种心态，对吧？
There is a bit of that, isn't there, in the mid nineteenth century?
但有趣的是，这种抵触情绪很快就消失了，人们开始觉得，一座宏伟的火车站是任何一个有身份的维多利亚时代城镇的标配。
But it's interesting how quickly that is overcome and that, you know, having a grand station is seen as the kind of sine qua non of any any self respecting Victorian town.
这也引出了铁路带来的惊人建筑热潮。
And and that that brings us to the the extraordinary building boom that's associated with the railways.
如果你想想的话，不可避免地，我要说第一座伟大的火车站是纽卡斯尔。
If you think about well, inevitably, I'm gonna say this is the first great railway station is Newcastle.
当然。
Of course.
我之前和家人一起去过那里。
Well, I've saw it in with a family.
那是一座巨大的铁制火车站棚屋。
Great iron iron kind of railway shed.
那些优雅的桁架横跨在铁轨上方，正面是约翰·多布森设计的宏伟新古典主义风格。
The those kind of elegant, struts over over the railway lines themselves with the grand neoclassical frontage by John Dobson.
它就像一座大教堂，有着中殿那样的空间，我。
And is like a cathedral with the kind of nave and I
就像一座大教堂，丹。
Like a cathedral, Dan.
就像一座大教堂。
Like a cathedral.
你听到了吗？
Did you hear that?
我听到了。
I did hear that.
是的。
Yeah.
这简直是对神圣的亵渎。
It's Sacrile.
我
I
听不清
can't hear
但不是这样。
But no.
完全不是。
Very much.
而且如果你了解维多利亚时代人的那种自信，当你新建一个向北的城堡车站，会发现铁轨几乎贴着诺曼城堡的边缘穿过，就是那个新城堡。
And if if you ever you know, the confidence of the Victorians as well, if you if you pulled out a new castle station heading north and you notice how it the red the line skims the the Norman castle, the new castle.
他们差点就把城堡拆了。
They almost knocked it down.
是的。
Yeah.
但这么搞反而还挺合适。
But it kinda works.
就是维多利亚时代的人就是……
It's just the Victorians just
不过在贝里特，我是说在贝里特，
Well, in Berritt I mean, in Berritt,
车站直接建在了城堡正中间。
the the station's built in the middle of the castle.
对。
Yeah.
这简直太惊人了。
It's kind of amazing.
在三号站台，有一块牌子写着，爱德华一世就是在这里将王位授予了约翰·巴利奥尔。
On Platform 3, there's a kind of sign saying, this is where Edward the first awarded the throne
给了约翰·巴利奥尔。
to John Baliol.
想喝杯咖啡吗？
Would you like a coffee?
味道不错。
It's good.
我特别想聊聊伦敦，毕竟它是世界上最大的城市。
And I I I just wondered specifically about London, which obviously is is the largest city in the world.
所以，要在人口密集的地方修铁路，跟在空旷的田野上修完全是两回事，伦敦就是这种情况。
So there's a lot of kind of a you know, it's it's quite it's one thing to build a railway across empty fields, but to build it across inhabited land such as you have in London.
多米尼克提到了《米德尔马契》，但维多利亚时代文学里另一段著名描写这段历史的，是《董贝父子》开篇，狄更斯描写了铁路穿过卡姆登地区时那种破坏性的过程。
And Dominic quoted the Middlemarch, but one of the other famous passages from Victorian literature describing this process is at the beginning of Dombey and Son, where Dickens describes the railway going through Camden and the kind of process of destruction.
而且，这显然也不是由中央统一组织的吧？
And, again, is that is is that a kind of presumably, it's not kind of centrally organized.
这完全是私营公司一路蛮横推进的结果。
This, again, is private companies just bulldozing their way through.
我觉得是私营公司做的。
I think I think it's private companies.
我不确定Dan是怎么想的。
I don't know what Dan thinks.
我的意思是，你想想，得有几十家吧？
I think I mean, you've got, what, scores?
几百家？
Hundreds?
到十九世纪末，私营铁路公司已经不止一百家了。
Well, more than a 100 of private companies by the end of the nineteenth century.
如果你想想汤米和伦敦的情况
And if you think about Tommy and and London
他们在建尤斯顿车站。
So they're building Euston.
你想想那个拱门，世界上最大的古典拱门。
You think Arch, which is the largest art largest classical arch in the world.
这些都不是中央政府建的。
These aren't built by central government.
中央政府根本没那个雄心，也没那个组织能力。
Central government doesn't really have the it doesn't really have the the ambition, the kind of the the apparatus.
我的意思是，中央政府从不干这种事。
I mean, central government doesn't do these.
维多利亚时代这些工程都是私人资本推动的。
These things are done by private interests in the Victorian period.
我们说说地铁吧。
Let's take the underground.
地铁是最具代表性的铁路系统之一，它的线路之所以这么乱，完全是因为由不同私营公司各自为政、毫无规划地建设，线路重复、站名混乱，同一个名字可能是两个站，同一个站又可能有两个名字，整个过程一团糟。
I mean, obviously, the another you know, one of the most emblematic railways of all, the underground lines develop I mean, the reason the underground map is is as it is is because they develop through private interests, completely higgledy piggledy, completely unplanned, duplicating each other, you know, stations with the same name that are two different stations or stations that are basically the same station with two different names, you know, just a shambolic process.
整个十九世纪后期都是这样。
And that is all through the late nineteenth century.
当时有很多人参与其中。
You have people.
我一直听说国有化的话题。
I mean, there's always talk about nationalization.
从十九世纪后半叶开始，
So from the late from the second half of the nineteenth century onwards
人们也常提到垄断的问题？
And and people say of monopolization?
所以他们开始合并，因为随着时间推移，铁路的利润渐渐变少了。
So And people well, they start to combine because, actually, railways become a bit less profitable as time goes on.
大概从1880年以后，赚钱就没那么容易了，但是——
So you stop making so much money after about 18 But
在鼎盛时期，我记得有人说过，铁路公司的价值甚至超过了东印度公司。
in the heyday, I mean, I read that they were more valuable than the East India Company.
确实如此，不过公交车当时也迎来了一波大发展，对吧，丹？
They are, but there's a big boom in buses, isn't it, Dan?
十九世纪四十年代不是爆发过一场铁路狂热吗？
Isn't there a big sort of the eighteen forties is the railway mania?
铁路狂热。
Railway mania.
当时出现了一个巨大的泡沫，人人都在抢购这些股票，导致股价严重高估，到了四十年代末终于崩盘，那段时间铁路无序扩张的乱象也正好撞上了这场危机。
There's a there's a huge bubble that eventually over these stocks that everyone's buying have become more overvalued, and there's there is a crash at the end of the eighteen forties where much of that kind of free free form messy sort of growth of the railways, it coincides with that period.
但后来，政府开始逐渐介入了。
But then there's a sense of government taking starting to step in.
像罗伯特·史蒂文森这样的人就呼吁要对铁路建设加以引导，推行统一标准。
You've got voices like Robert Stevenson arguing for some direction to this, some standardisation.
有意思的是，我们之前聊到铁路如何改变了人们对时间和速度的感知，其实这也推动了时间本身的标准化——铁路时刻表必须依赖全国统一的时间系统，这想法真的很惊人，因为在那之前，时间管理完全是各自为政的状态。
Interestingly And as well, you know, some of the things we talked about about the obliteration of of tight speed time through the speed of the railways, you get things like the standardization of time itself, which, you know, your railway timetables obviously rely on the country moving to a standardized system of of time, which is an amazing thought really because before then it was it was a kind of laissez faire attitude.
所以，全国统一采用格林威治标准时间，正是维多利亚时代理性进步的一部分，这一点毫无疑问，也和时间的变革紧密相关。
So we the adoption standard adoption of Greenwich Mean Time across the whole of the country is part of that rational progress of the Victorian age is a part of that story definitely, as well as the time.
你知道吗？在拿破仑战争之前，据AJP泰勒说，拿破仑从罗马到巴黎，或者反过来，花的时间跟凯撒那时候差不多。
You know, be before, was it AJP Taylor who said that up until the Napoleonic Wars, it basically took Napoleon the same length of time as it would Caesar to get from Rome to Paris and vice versa.
但之后就不一样了，我记得在修建连接纽卡斯尔车站的高架桥之前，19世纪40年代从伦敦到盖茨黑德大概只要九个小时左右。
Whereas after that, you know, I think before they built the high level bridge over the time to connect it, with Newcastle Station, You could get in the eighteen forties, you could get from London to Gateshead in about, I think it's nine hours.
这简直太惊人了，对吧？
That's just extraordinary, isn't it?
毕竟以前得花上四天呢。
Considering it would have taken four days, something like that.
不过，丹，你刚才提到轨距的问题，这确实让情况变得更复杂了。
But but, Dan, you were saying about the gauges that that complicates it.
而且据说，当时最权威的火车时刻表是布拉德肖编的。
And apparently, there's so so the the great railway timetable is Bradshaw's.
这个叫布拉德肖的人搞出了这套时刻表。
This guy Bradshaw develops it.
《笨拙》杂志还开过一个玩笑，说比布拉德肖时刻表更复杂的，只有大博览会的展品目录了。
And punch has one of its many rib ticklers, where it says that the the only volume more complex than Bradshaw's was the catalogue of the great exhibition.
但我想，原因之一是当时有这么多不同的铁路公司。
But presumably, part of the reason for that is that you've got all these different companies.
每家公司都有自己的一套标准，想把它们协调起来实在太难了。
So they're all they've all got kind of different you know, very difficult to kind of mesh them.
再加上轨距也不一样，你一路走着，
But also that you have these different gauges, and you're going along.
一到换轨距的地方，
You come to a different gauge.
就得下车，换另一趟列车。
You have to get off, get on another train.
就像以前西班牙和法国之间的情况一样。
A bit like, Spain and France was for a long time.
是的。
Yes.
印度的铁路轨距好像一直更宽一些。
And the Indian railways were always broader, I think.
所以，推动宽轨发展的关键人物是布鲁内尔。
So so so and and the the great figure who who broadens the gauge is Brunel.
那么，布鲁内尔在这段历史里扮演了什么角色？
So just how does Brunel fit into this story?
因为史蒂文森才是铁路早期时代的典型代表，而布鲁内尔代表的是铁路的英雄时代。
Because he is kind of the absolute know, Streibenson is is the archetype of the early age of the railways.
布鲁内尔则是那个辉煌鼎盛时期的象征。
Brunel is the archetype of of the the kind of the heroic heyday.
没错，他确实是个很出色的土木工程师，但论真正的工程能力，他比不上罗伯特·史蒂文森，两人经常意见相左。
Well, he is, but he's he's quite a useful civil engineer, but he's not a great actual engineer compared to Robert Stevenson, who would who would often lock horns with him.
但他们关系很好。
They were good friends.
他们之间也存在一定程度的商业竞争。
They were good they were kind of commercial rivals to an extent.
但最终是罗伯特·史蒂文森主张的窄轨标准胜出了。
But it was it was Robert Stevenson arguing for the narrow gauge, he won out.
布鲁内尔当时在试验一种叫‘大气铁路’的东西，那是一种靠气压推动列车运行的复杂系统，而不是靠煤炭和蒸汽机车那种传统方式？
Brunel was arguing was experimenting with things called did did they call it the atmospheric railway, which is kind of a complicated system of pressure to propel trains along rather than using, basically, you know, coal power and steam locomotion?
他老是冒出这种天马行空的想法，而务实又冷静的罗伯特·史蒂文森则常常坐在那儿摇头，心里嘀咕：他又在搞什么名堂？
So he's often going on these flights of fancy that the very pragmatic and hard headed Robert Stephens would up would just be sitting shaking his head going, what's he doing now?
你提到了世博会，汤姆，这正好引出了铁路带来的另一个变化——大众观演活动的兴起。
But you mentioned the great exhibition, Tom, which is a useful segue into what the railways, ushered in was kind of mass spectator events.
多米尼克提到了伦敦地铁。
I mean, Dominic mentioned the London Underground.
伦敦地铁太古老了，第一批乘客当中，有人坐地铁只是为了去看公开处决。
The London Underground's so old that some of the first passengers on it went to watch public hangings
在纽盖特监狱。
in Newgate.
这个细节真惊人。
Amazing detail.
这真是个了不起的细节。
That's an amazing detail.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
真是
What a
大理石拱门。
marble arch.
我觉得那段在法灵顿附近，就是那一带，是后来才建的。
I think it was new getting that bit around Farrington, you know, around there.
哦，原来如此。
Oh, right.
但法灵顿是最早的一批之一，对吧？
But Farrington's a
是啊。
very, very early one, isn't
对吧？
it?
是的。
Yes.
然后是那一段路。
And then that stretch.
但你别忘了，像世博会这样的大型活动。
But you've got events like the great exhibition itself.
如果没有铁路，这些活动根本不可能实现。
That wouldn't have been possible without the railways.
不只是把展品运到伦敦，连那些购票参观的公众也是靠铁路运来的。
Not just getting all the the ex exhibitions themselves exhibits themselves down to London, but the the paying public as well.
那可是大获成功。
It was a huge success.
如果你想想那些宏伟的建筑，比如尤斯顿拱门，简直就像一座凯旋门。
And if you think about those great I mean, the Euston Arch is like a triumphal arch.
有些人说，这象征着北方人真正抵达了伦敦，像国王十字站、尤斯顿站、圣潘克拉斯这些车站都是这样。
Some some people have described it as it, You know, the North is arriving literally in London, you know, with that light the the stations, Kings Cross, Euston, St.
帕丁顿。
Pancras.
这确实很引人注目，对吧？
It's quite a statement, isn't it?
这在建筑上相当有代表性。
It's quite an architectural.
但我觉得，铁路其实是——我的意思是，你提到的那个说法，
But see, I think I think the railways are the the I mean, you you use the expression of.
它们确实是我们在之前几期播客里讨论的那些事物的基石。
I think they are the absolute building block for some of the things we talked about in previous episodes of this podcast.
比如国家文化的形成。
So the idea of a national culture.
我们做过专门的一期，讲过足球和板球，
We had a whole rep we did an episode we did episodes about football and cricket.
你知道的。
You know?
我们就拿足球来说吧。
Let's take take football.
足球是一项大众观赏运动，人们会追随自己的球队一路看到决赛现场。
Football is a mass spectator sport in which people will follow their team to the cup final.
没错。
Yes.
你懂的。
You know?
二十世纪初英格兰那种，比如博尔顿全城人涌向伦敦的场景，如果没有铁路带来的大规模交通，是完全无法想象的。
And those scenes that you get in sort of early twentieth century England of the whole population of Bolton, you know, descending on London or something, they are utterly unthinkable without the mass transit possibilities of the railway.
我觉得铁路对现代民族主义和国家认同至关重要，因为它塑造了一种共同的故事感和文化认同——没有铁路，就没有电报，也没有全国性的大众媒体。事实上，没有铁路，报纸根本不可能这么快传遍全国。
And I would argue that what the rail railway I mean, the railway is key to me in modern nationalism and the modern national sort of modern national identity in the nation state because it creates a sense of a sort of collective story and a collective culture that would be much that and the telegraph and the kind of development of a national mass media Without those things and and and by the way, you wouldn't get them at the national mass media without the railways because you wouldn't be able to get the newspapers Yeah.
把报纸迅速送到全国各地。
To different parts of the country so quickly.
我的意思是，如果没有铁路，这一切都无从谈起。
I mean, I think you without that railways, you don't get any of that.
而且，如果你是伦敦的一名私人咨询侦探，没有铁路，你根本没法赶到达特穆尔去破获那些涉及巨犬的案子。
Also, of course, if you're a consulting private consulting detective in London, you wouldn't be able to get to Dartmoor to solve and steal his crimes involving giant hounds.
我觉得可以说，我们播客的节目里大约有七成都离不开铁路，剩下的那些全是你的希腊主题。
I think it's fair to say that about 70% of our podcast episodes depend upon the railways and the others are all your Greek ones.
还有一个有趣的细节，关于国家文化，多米尼克。
Or or another interesting footnote, the national culture points an interesting one, Dominic.
威廉·亨利·史密斯是个关键人物，他敏锐地发现了在火车上卖报纸、杂志和书籍的机会。
William Henry Smith, key figure, because he spots the opportunity to sell newspapers, periodicals, books
在北安普顿线上。
on the Northumbria.
他本人并不是，但不是的。
He's not, but he's No.
我们说的这位W.H.史密斯，没错。
Fans w h Smith that we Yes.
他在大街上那家略显寒酸的店铺。
Slough slightly shabby high street presence.
但在维多利亚时代，人们已经发现坐火车时看书特别方便。
But back in the Victorian age, they were they'd spotted that it was quite easy to read on trains.
所以就有了这种全国性的现象——无论你去哪儿，都能看到W.H. Smith。
And so that, you know, that national sense of everywhere you go, you've see w h Smith.
以前书店就直接设在站台上，后来才慢慢搬到车站周边的街道上。
They used to be literally on the platform, and then they then they moved out into kind of this the the streets roundabout stations.
但很明显，通勤族是铁路催生出来的群体。
But that Obviously, the commuter.
对。
Yeah.
通勤族。
The commuter.
通勤族是铁路时代的产物。
The commuter is a railway creation.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，现在没人骑马去伦敦上班了。
I mean, people aren't riding their horse into London, know, to the office.
对。
Yeah.
这不就是郊区的兴起吗？
It's it's the invention of suburbia, isn't it?
只有在那时候才可能实现。
It's only possible.
城市化本身，可以说和郊区的发展是同步的，你得能方便地往返。
The urbanization itself, you might say, goes hand in hand with the suburbs, and you need to be able to travel in.
当然，另一个伟大的维多利亚时代发明就是海滨度假。
That that's the other great Victorian invention as well, of course, is the seaside holiday.
比如布莱克浦、斯卡伯勒，还有我这边的蒂姆希尔和惠特利湾，都因为火车变得很容易从城市到达。
You know, Blackpool, Scarborough, even places like Tymealth and Whitley Bay in my part of the world, you know, be become easy to get to from the urban centers by train.
而且
And
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