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大家好，欢迎收听这档拒绝被历史围墙束缚的播客。
Hello, and welcome to the podcast that refuses to be restrained by the walls of history.
我们曾从古罗马谈到现代华盛顿，从庞贝城谈到特洛伊。
We've ranged from ancient Rome to modern Washington, from Pompeii to Troy.
今天，我们一只脚踩在中国长城上，另一只脚踩在美国与墨西哥边境上，因为今天我们的话题是围墙与边界。
And today, we have one foot on the Great Wall Of China and another on The US Mexico border because our subject today is walls and borders.
我们为何要寻求分离？
Why do we seek to separate?
围墙有效吗？
Do walls work?
它们是否曾经是好事？
Are they ever a good thing?
多米尼克·桑德布鲁克和我在一起，我想先从我们在Twitter上收到的一个精彩而简单的问题开始，这个问题来自一个名叫汤姆的网友。
Dominic Sandbrook is with me, and, I want to start with a wonderful simple question we received on Twitter from the excellently named Tom.
汤姆问：什么样的墙才算好墙，多米尼克？
And Tom asks, what makes a good wall, Dominic?
你认为呢？
What do you think?
明白了。
Got it.
什么才是好墙？
What makes a good wall?
嗯，我想这要看情况。
Well, I suppose it depends.
你是想把人挡在外面，还是把人关在里面？
You keeping people out or keeping people in?
所以，你我成长过程中最具代表性的墙就是柏林墙，对吧？
So the emblematic wall that you and I grew up with is the Berlin Wall, right?
这是我们一生中大多数人提到墙时会想到的那堵墙，
That's the wall that we would have thought of for most of our lives when people made
的
the
我
I
我想到的是哈德良长城。
have thought of Hadrian's Wall.
你会吗？
Would you?
会。
Yeah.
一个活在过去的人，是的。
A man living in the past, yeah.
我对哈德良长城的兴趣远大于柏林墙。
I was much more interested in Hadrian's Wall than the Berlin Wall.
柏林墙当然应该被称为反法西斯防护墙，我觉得这是对墙的一个很棒的名称。
The Berlin Wall, of course, the it's actually should probably be known as the anti fascist Protection Rampart, which I think is a great name for a wall.
我的意思是，我觉得
I mean, I think
所有这些中，一个好名字。
of all these a good name.
柏林墙确实有个好名字。
And the Berlin Wall had a had a great name.
而且它奏效了。
And it worked.
人们常常忘记的一点是。
That's the one thing people forget.
我的意思是，柏林墙是个怪物，但它确实实现了它的
I mean, the Berlin Wall was a monstrosity, but it actually did work in its
目的。
purpose.
因为它设立的目的是阻止东柏林人逃往西方区域。
Because because it was set up to stop people from East Berlin fleeing into the Western sectors.
对。
Right.
在1945年到1961年柏林墙建立期间，大约有三百万人从东德逃往西德。
So about 3,000,000 people had fled from East Germany to West Germany between say 1945 1961 when the Berlin Wall went up.
1961年之后，我认为这个数字下降到了大约五千人。
And after 1961, I think that total fell to about 5,000.
大约有一百人被射杀。
About 100 people were shot.
所以，尽管柏林墙令人憎恶，但它实际上非常有效。
So the Berlin Wall, know, hideous as it was, was very effective actually.
但这也 presumably 依赖于铁幕的存在。
But presumably also dependent on the existence of the iron curtain.
所以，那条贯穿欧洲、将华约阵营与北约国家分隔开来的边界。
So the frontier running right the way across Europe dividing the water pack from the NATO powers.
因为如果你没有一个与柏林墙相连的铁幕，你就可以绕过柏林墙的角落，不是吗？
Because if you don't have an iron curtain joining up to the Berlin Wall, you could just go around the corner of the Berlin Wall, couldn't you?
而墙的问题总是在于，它们终有尽头，你就可以从侧面绕过去。
And that's always a problem with walls is that I mean, there's you know, they come to an end point, then you can just go around the side.
是的。
Yes.
我想是的。
I suppose so.
你说得对，当时还有铁幕的存在。
You're right that there was the uncurse as well.
所以，我想，这将是本集的一个主题，对吧？
So that, I guess, is I mean, that's gonna be a theme of the this episode, isn't it?
墙和边境往往是相同的东西，但并不总是相同的东西。
That walls and borders are often the same thing, not always the same thing, though.
所以特朗普的墙实际上根本不是一堵墙。
So Donald Trump's wall is not actually really a wall.
大部分都是一道围栏。
Most of it is a fence.
而且在美墨边境，早就已经有一道围栏了。
And there was already, you know, a fence along The US Mexican border.
那么他现在的情况如何？
So what's his status now?
他即将，呃，就在我们说话的时候，他要去参观它。
He's going to I mean, as we speak, he's going to visit it.
他要去进行一种告别仪式。
He's going to pay a sort of farewell.
他们已经建了一小部分，我想，而他要去说它有多美。
They've built a tiny bit of it, I think, and he's gonna go and say how beautiful it is.
这是他伟大而伟大的遗产。
This is his great, great kind of legacy.
但当然，这并不是一场战争。
But yeah, it's not a war, obviously.
我的意思是，说这会是一场战争简直是荒谬的，它只是一道围栏，而且美国边境本来就已有围栏。
I mean, was a ludicrous proposition that it was going to be a war, It's a fence, and there were fences on The US border anyway.
但墙和围栏的问题在于，即使是柏林墙，有些人也能翻过去或从下面钻过去。
But the thing with walls and fences is even the Berlin Wall, some people can get over or under them.
这就是边境的性质，人们会跨越它。
That's the nature of borders, people cross them.
除非你加入朝鲜，那样你就不会跨越那道边境。
Unless you join North Korea, in which case you don't cross that one.
我的意思是，你会被射杀。
I mean, you you get shot.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，这基本上是一种铁律：你总能突破一堵墙。
I mean, that that is the kind of essentially, the iron rule that that you can always break through a wall.
但以这个标准来评判，你觉得历史上最有效的墙是哪一道？
But judging it by that standard, what what would you say has been the most effective wall?
作为一个国家而言？
As a state?
它是历史上的一道屏障。
It's a barrier in history.
我之所以问你这个问题，当然因为我有一个绝佳的答案。
I I and the only reason I'm asking you that, of course, is because I've got an excellent answer.
好吧。
Okay.
所以这就能说明了。
So that would say it
这会让我显得很厉害。
would make me look good.
哦，这个
Oh, this
你觉得为什么呢？
is Why do you think okay.
所以我的我的我
So so my my I
我只会说
I would just tell
她。
her.
我说，我会说狄奥多西城墙。
Say, I would say the Theodosian Walls.
你知道吗？
You know?
我面前写着狄奥多西城墙。
I've got I've got the Theodosian Walls written down in front of me.
它们是我最喜欢的城墙。
They're got all my favorite walls.
我觉得它们没什么效果，但它们非常
I don't think they're effective, but they're very
它们非常有效。
They were very effective.
它们建于五世纪，一直坚守到1204年。
They're built in the fifth century, and they hold out till 12:04.
我认为这确实是一个相当惊人的记录。
I reckon that's that's a pretty phenomenal record.
话虽如此，如果世界上有一个城市因被攻陷两次而闻名，那一定是君士坦丁堡。
That said, if there's one city in the world that's famous for being sacked twice, it's the city behind the Theodos.
我知道。
I know.
但可怜的拜占庭人被一群贪婪的敌人包围着。
But the poor Byzantines are surrounded by voracious enemies.
基本上，这就是罗马帝国留下的伟大遗产——无论如何，它仍然是一个强大的帝国，留给拜占庭人的东西。
And, basically, this is the great legacy that the the Roman Empire, it's anyway, it's it's still a great power, leaves the Byzantines.
这是一个令人难以置信的防御工事系统，显然，九世纪或十二世纪的拜占庭人根本无力负担，但他们拥有这套令人惊叹的城墙防御体系，至今仍可参观。
It's this incredible fortification system that, obviously, the people of of ninth or twelfth century Byzantium couldn't possibly have afforded, but they have this incredible defensive system of walls that you can still go and see.
我的意思是，漫步在君士坦丁堡的城墙上，至今仍是值得一做的伟大体验。
Mean, you know, to to walk around the walls of Constantinople is still one of the great things that you can do.
所以，这会是我的提名。
So that that would be my nomination.
如果你有更好的，我……不，没有。
If But you got a better one, I'm I'm No.
这是个不错的选择。
It's good choice.
你之前提到过哈德良长城。
So you mentioned Hadrian's Wall earlier on.
我们不妨聊聊哈德良长城吧，我知道你迫不及待想谈这个。
We might as well get into Hadrian's Wall because I know you're itching to talk about it.
哈德良长城，我两年前去过那里，当时带着一种愤世嫉俗的心态，你知道，你预期会有点失望，因为我小时候去过，之后四十年都没再回去，本以为会令人失望。
And Hadrian's Wall is I was there two years ago, and I sort of went in that sort of cynical state of mind where you, you know, you're expecting to be a little bit disappointed because you've I went as a child and hadn't been for forty years or something and was expecting to be underwhelmed.
但哈德良长城真的很了不起，对吧？
And it is an amazing thing, isn't it, Hadrian's Wall?
这要看你看到的是哪一段。
Well, it depends which bit of it you're looking at.
我说这话是有切身体会的，因为我确实徒步走过三次。
And I I say this with some feeling because I've actually walked it three times.
所以我大约17岁时走过那段路。
So I walked it when I was about 17.
我后来又走了一次，就在刚结婚后，我说服了我亲爱的陪我一起走，那次差点毁了我们的婚姻，因为我们迷路了。
I walked it I was when that just just after I got married, I persuaded my beloved to walk with me, that almost ended our marriage because we got lost.
我们迷路迷得很严重
We got very badly
迷路了。
lost.
你怎么会迷路
How can you get lost of
哈德良长城步道？
Adrian's Walk?
那是在他们设立国家步道之前，所以我误读了地图，总之，幸好我们还在一起，但当时很惊险。
It before they it was before they'd set up a national path, So I misread a map and and anyway, fortunately, we're still together, but it was quite close.
然后大约，哦，大约七年前，我让全家人都走了这条步道，那时孩子们还很小。
And then about, oh, about seven years ago, I made the whole family do it, and the children were quite young.
我告诉他们这会很刺激。
And I showed them it was gonna be exciting.
当然，我们从沃尔斯端出发，结果下起了倾盆大雨。
And, of course, we, you know, we we set off from Wall's End, and it just bucketed down with rain.
你根本不可能预料到这种情况，对吧？
You could never possibly have anticipated that, could you?
没错。
No.
我有一些非常愉快的假期照片，照片里孩子们在纽卡斯尔郊外哭着，灰蒙蒙的雨倾泻而下，问我为什么不能去个更暖和的地方。
I've got some very happy holiday snaps with the the children sobbing in the kind of outskirts of Newcastle as the grey rain slices down, asking me why we couldn't have gone somewhere warmer.
但我同意。
But I agree.
哈德良长城真是太棒了。
Is Hadrian's Wall is is is fantastic.
我想，对我来说，它就是墙的原型。
And I suppose you see, I think it think for for me, it's the the archetype of the wall.
这正是我一直以来所想到的。
It was what I always think of.
我觉得这非常有趣，因为我们并不完全清楚它为何而建。
And I think it's it's fascinating because it we don't entirely know why why it was built.
我们从古典文献中获得的唯一细节，是来自一篇写于哈德良死后约二百五十年的文献，其中提到这座墙是为了将罗马人与野蛮人分隔开来，
So the only the only detail we have from from classical sources is it's it's written a source written about two hundred fifty years after the life of Hadrian, and it says the wall was built to to to separate the Romans from the barbarians,
这
which
这种说法相当模糊。
is very kind of, you know, ambiguous.
那么，它是作为力量的象征而建造的吗？
So is it is it built as an expression of strength?
也就是说，你知道，我们控制着你们。
So say, you know, we've we we we control you.
也许他们用白灰粉刷了墙体，使其更加醒目。
Perhaps they whitewashed it to make it stand out.
也许它相当于某种东西。
Perhaps it was kind of equivalent.
你知道，人们必须出示护照才能通过。
You know, people had to present their passports to get through.
它是要彰显罗马力量的宏大宣言，还是作为软弱的体现，用来阻挡蛮族？
It's it's about making a massive statement of Roman power, or is it built as an expression of weakness, in which case it's about keeping the barbarians at bay?
在城墙的建造方式中，存在着一种模棱两可之处。
And there's a kind of ambivalence there in the way that the walls are built.
你知道，中国或其他地方的防御工事也是如此。
You know, that's true of the the fortifications in China or wherever.
是的。
Yeah.
也许美国也是如此——你建造它时，是感到强大，还是在暴露弱点？
That's maybe even America that that is it is it are you do you feel strong when you build it or or or do are you projecting weakness?
但这就是它的模糊性，不是吗？
But that's the ambiguity, isn't it?
所以，这就是长城的故事：你必须是一个非常富裕且先进的社会才能建造它，但除非你担心草原游牧民族来袭并劫掠你的所有城镇，否则你不会去建它。
So that's the story of the Great Wall Of China, that you have to be a very rich and sophisticated society to build it, but you don't build it unless you're worried about steppe nomads raiding you and sort of pillaging all your towns and stuff.
而且，哈德良时期的情况大概也是如此，对吧？
And presumably that's the case with Hadrian's rule, right?
这两者都是，不是吗？
That it's both, isn't it?
你得是罗马人才能建造它。
That you have to be the Romans to build it.
但同样地，如果你真的那么强大，你就应该已经征服了现在苏格兰的地区。
But equally, if you were so powerful, you'd have conquered what is now Scotland.
是的。
Yeah.
有趣的是，关于长城的‘伟大’这一概念，基本上是西方人的观点。
We see and and what's interesting about the Great Wall Of China is that the the the idea that it's great is is basically a Western one.
没错。
Right.
有趣。
Interesting.
我的意思是，你会知道这一点，因为这是尼克松。
I mean, you'll know this because it's Nixon.
是尼克松。
It's Nixon.
大多数人想到尼克松时会说他在
Most think about Nixon on the
长城。
Great Wall.
去
Goes
他著名地说道：这是一道伟大的墙。
He says famously, this is a great wall.
这是一道为伟大民族而建的墙，或者
And it's it's a great wall for a great people or
一些事情。
something.
那是他著名的配乐。
That's his famous soundtrack.
有一本非常出色的书，我不太记得了，是朱莉娅·洛威尔写的关于长城的。
There's a there's there's a there's a brilliant book, I don't know, Julia Lovell on the Great Wall.
是的。
Yeah.
她指出，这句话实际上是被中国宣传部门修改过的。
And she and and apparently, got that that phrase got rewritten by, Chinese propaganda.
原本他本应说：‘长城是为伟大人民而建的。’
As he was meant to have said, it's a great wall for great people
对。
Yes.
这来源于
That comes from
一个伟大的过去，而且是的，没错。
a great past, and it's and Yeah.
只有伟大的人民才能建造它，同样，也能拥有壮丽的视野。
Only a great people that built it, again, have a great view.
而且这种伟大的事物似乎无穷无尽地不断增多。
And it's sort of endless greats kind of multiply.
但我是说，长城，我们通常认为它基本上是个展示品。
But, I mean, the the the Great Wall Of China, you know, we think of it, it's basically a kind of showpiece.
但那是因为它被翻新过，对吧？
But that's because it's been it's been renovated, hasn't it?
所以，你所看到的那段，其实只是很小的一部分。
So what so the bit that you go and see is actually just a very small bit.
但归根结底，并不存在一条延续了数千年的单一长城。
But, I mean, ultimately, there was no one Great Wall Of China that has lasted for thousands and thousands of years.
而且在我看来，它似乎最初几乎就像一个劳改营，是第一位皇帝把人们派往中国最偏远的角落，让他们累死在那里。
And it I see it seems to have have kind of begun almost as a kind of gulag, as a as a a kind of, you know, the first emperor sending people off to to work themselves to death in the the remotest corners of China.
所以，这再次体现了战争建设的另一个维度：它是专制和权力的表达。
So that, again, is another kind of dimension of war building is that it's an expression of of autocracy, an expression of power.
而那些建造它的人，他们的骨头被用作了材料。
And those who do it are you know, it's built with their bones.
他们的骨头被碾碎，成为砂浆的一部分。
Their bones are kind of ground up to become part of the mortar.
这难道不是所有伟大工程的共同特点吗？我认为是的。
Isn't that sort of true of all grande proger, you know I think it is.
在历史上，不正是这样吗？
In history, isn't it?
金字塔，没错。
The Pyramids and Yeah.
你知道，小时候那种有点无聊的情景：你父母有个朋友，有点左翼，像我一样，会问：谁建造了金字塔？
You know, the peep it's not that sort of slightly tedious thing when you when you're a child and you have a you know, your parents have a friend who's a bit left wing like me and says, who built the Pyramids?
而你回答：哦，是拉美西斯，或者别的谁。
And you say, oh, Rameses or whoever it might be.
他说，不是。
He says, no.
是由成千上万的奴隶建造的，别忘了这一点。
It was built by thousands of slaves, and don't you forget it.
我的意思是，这是一种普遍说法，但那时候真有奴隶吗？
I mean, that's a kind of standard There wasn't slaves, was it?
是吗？不是吗？
It was Wasn't it?
有点像凯恩斯主义。
Kind of Keynesianism.
就是为了让每个人在那段时期都有事可做。
It was keeping giving everything something to do during the
我想说的是，那个衰落时期。
Well, I suppose the fall period.
所以，让我们谈谈的不只是墙，还有边境。
So let's talk a bit about not just walls, but borders.
你有最喜欢的边境吗？
Do have a favorite border?
得了吧。
Oh, come on.
是哪一个？
What is it?
最喜欢的边境？
A favorite border?
哦，我觉得是环绕大不列颠的海洋。
Oh, I think the, the sea that encloses Great Britain.
好选择。
Oh, good choice.
好选择。
Good choice.
但你看，我们之所以这样，只是因为那是自然边境。
But you see, we're only because it's natural borders.
你看，这是自然边界。
You see natural borders.
那就是
That's
但大多数边界并不是自然的。
But most borders aren't natural.
这正是有趣之处。
That's what's so interesting.
网上有一个非常棒的地图，你可以访问一个网站，上面有一张地图，显示了每一个现代国家边界的划定日期。
So there's a fantastic map online that you can there's a website you can go to, and there's a map, and it tells you all the dates of every major, well not every major, every modern nation state border.
其中绝大多数都是二十世纪的。
And by far the sort of plurality are twentieth century.
实际上，当你回溯时，会发现很少有边界早于13或1400年。
And actually when you go back, there were very few that are older than about 13 or 1,400.
所以我认为最古老的之一是西班牙和葡萄牙，它们的边界形成于12月。
So I think one of the oldest is Spain and Portugal, which is December.
西班牙和法国的边界非常古老，但大多数其他边界都很新。
Spain and France is very old, but most of the others are pretty new.
苏格兰和英格兰，苏格兰和英格兰。
Well Scotland and England, Scotland and England.
我的意思是，这差不多有一个世纪了。
I mean, it's kind of a century.
但那个边界也发生了一些变化，不是吗？
And that but that's sort of shifted a bit, hasn't it?
那一直都有点模糊不定。
That's always been a little bit fluid.
苏格兰说的是苏格兰英语。
The Scotland's Scottish English.
嗯，这还挺有意思的。
Well, it's kind of interesting.
哈德良长城被当作苏格兰和英格兰的边界，但实际上它更靠南。
Hadrian's Wall stands in for the border between Scotland and England, whereas it's it's further south.
因此，人们有一种观念，认为英格兰是罗马不列颠行省的天然继承者，而苏格兰则是哈德良长城以北蛮族土地的天然继承者，但这完全不是事实。
And so there is this kind of idea that England is a natural inheritor of the Roman province of Britannia, and Scotland is a natural inheritor of the barbarian lands north of Hadrian's Wall, but that's not true at all.
边界恰好位于现在这个位置，这其实是一种巧合。
It's a kind of coincidence that the border tended to lie where it is.
是的，很有趣。
Yeah, interesting.
那么威尔士和英格兰之间的边界呢？
What about the border between Wales and England?
所以这被认为是奥法堤，对吧？
So that's kind of seen as the same as Offer's Dyke, isn't it?
人们，是的。
People Yeah.
人们用奥法堤作为某种界限，但我其实对奥法一无所知。
That people use Offa's Dyke as a kind of I don't know really I don't know anything about Offa.
有人知道吗？
Does anybody?
麦西亚国王？
King of Mercia?
嗯，我想我的意思是，我
Well, I think I mean, I
关于奥法界墙，你again会感受到与哈德良长城类似的矛盾心态。
think with Offa's Dyke, again, you get this kind of the the same ambivalence that you have with Adrian's Wall.
它是一种王权的宣示吗？
Is is it an a statement of royal power?
我的意思是，一位盎格鲁-撒克逊国王能够调动人力建造如此巨大的土墙，这在当时的标准下确实令人印象深刻。
I mean, it's an it is a statement of royal power because for, an Anglo Saxon king to have the manpower to construct this enormous earthen dike, I mean, that's pretty impressive by the standards of the time.
但与此同时，这也是一种失败的承认——你无法驯服威尔士人，只能修筑这道墙来阻止他们劫掠。
But at the same time, it's kind of an admission of defeat that you can't bring the Welsh to heel, and you've gotta build this to stop them from raiding.
所以，这again体现了与我所说的柏林墙类似的不确定性，不是吗？
So, again, it's this this same kind of uncertainty that you get with I suppose with in a way, that's there with the Berlin Wall, isn't it?
朝鲜也是如此。
It's there with North Korea.
这是力量还是软弱？
Is it strength or is it weakness?
嗯。
Yeah.
如果你这么强大，就不需要一堵伟大的墙。
If you're so great, you don't need a great wall.
但同时，当然，墙象征着我们刚刚提到的内容。
But also, of course, walls stand in for we've just been mentioning this.
墙象征着自然边界。
Walls stand in for natural borders.
对于罗马来说，你有莱茵河，有多瑙河。
So for Rome, you've got the Rhine, you've got the Danube.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，它们在一定程度上提供了天然的边界。
So they, to a degree, provide natural frontiers.
我想沙漠也是如此。
And I suppose the desert as well.
我的意思是，罗马帝国的自然扩张极限在于，向南只有撒哈拉沙漠。
I mean, you the Roman Empire reaches its its limit of natural expansion because southwards, there's only the Sahara.
向东，还有东方。
Eastwards And east.
只有蛮族。
Only barbarians.
不过向东，你们不是可以进军美索不达米亚吗？
Well, in an eastwards You could go you could go east into sort of Mesopotamia, couldn't you?
我的意思是，罗马人确实可以。
I mean, the Romans Yeah.
你们可以停止扩张。
You could stop.
没错。
Yep.
那个边界是否固定了罗马与波斯的边界？
And did that was that border kind of fix the Roman Persian border?
我的意思是，它可能相当不稳定，肯定非常流动。
I mean, it presumably was a little bit that must have been very fluid.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
It is.
因为在晚期古代，那里没有任何自然地貌特征。
Because in in particularly late antiquity, there's there's there is no natural feature there.
所以你基本上必须建造庞大的边防哨所。
So you essentially have to construct massive frontier posts.
晚期古代罗马与波斯关系的历史，就是不断争夺构成边界的防御关键节点的过程。
And the story of the relationship between the Romans and the Persians in late antiquity is a constant process of scrapping over key nodes of defense which constitute border.
但我认为，现代历史中具备而早期时期所没有的，是一种明确、稳固边界的意识。
But I suppose what you have in modern history that you don't have in earlier periods is the sense of a solid definite border.
我的意思是，即使是哈德良长城，也不是一条画在沙地上的线，因为罗马的力量本应向北延伸。
I mean, I think even Hadrian's Wall, Hadrian's Wall is is it it's not a line drawn in the sand because Roman power would be expected to project northwards.
军队本应控制长城以北和以南的边境区域。
Troops would be expected to control frontier zone northwards and also southwards as well.
罗马防御体系的历史是，最初人们认为罗马的力量是无限的，帝国没有边界。
And the history of Roman defenses is that, to begin with, you have the idea that that Roman power is limitless, that that empire is without borders.
这是一种神圣的安排。
This is the divine dispensation.
然后人们开始在莱茵河和多瑙河一线修建防御工事。
Then you get the sense that you're going to kind of slightly build defenses along the line of the Rhine and the Danube or whatever.
接着是纵深防御，最后干脆放弃，因为整个体系被彻底摧毁。
Then you have defense in-depth, then you just give up because the whole thing gets swept away.
因此，边境有多种不同的存在方式。
So there are many different ways to have borders.
这基本上就进入了中世纪和近代早期。
And that's basically moving into the medieval period and early modern period.
我的意思是，边境总在说波兰。
Mean, borders constantly say Poland.
但我的意思是，跟我讲讲波兰的边界吧。
But I mean, talk me through the borders of Poland.
我根本无法理解这个。
I can't even begin to wrap my head around that.
是啊，波兰可是著名的例子，不是吗？
No, I mean, Poland is the famous one, isn't it?
因为即使在二十世纪，它也多次改变。
Because even in the twentieth century, it changed multiple times.
那么现在的波兰是什么样子？
And what is Poland now?
我们现在所接受的波兰，早在1935年或1900年时并不存在，那时波兰甚至在地图上都找不到。
What we will accept to be Poland would not have been accepted to be Poland in 1935 or 1900 when Poland didn't even exist on the map.
所以这些事情很有趣。
So those things are interesting.
我的意思是，人们常说边界是《威斯特伐利亚和约》的产物。
I mean, people often say that the borders are a product of the Treaty of Westphalia.
那是1648年，结束三十年战争的和约。
So that's 1648, the Treaty that ends the thirty years war.
人们认为，有些人认为这是民族国家制度确立的时刻。
And people see that, some people see that as the moment that sort of enshrines the nation state.
但如果你再往前追溯，比如西班牙和葡萄牙瓜分新世界的时候，当时有一项由教皇斡旋的协议，即《托尔德西里亚斯条约》和《萨拉戈萨条约》，它们基本上规定：这一块归你，那一块归我。
But if you go back even further, so if you go back to when Spain and Portugal were carving up the new world, I mean, had a deal brokered by the Pope, the Treaty of Tordesillas and then the Treaty of Zaragoza, which basically said, you can have this bit, we'll have this bit.
有一条特定的纬线作为分界线。
There's such and such a parallel as the dividing line.
所以我认为，一旦有了地图，就有了边界。
So there was a sort of, I think once you've got maps, you've got borders.
一旦你能把它写下来、画出来，你就会有一种感觉：这一块是我们的，是不可分割的领土，而那一块是你们的。
You know, once you can write it down and draw it, then you've got a sense that this bit is ours, it is inalienably part of our realm and that bit is yours.
但我完全不明白的是，我从未见过有人解释过：如果你决定骑上马穿越中欧或其他地方，会发生什么？
But what I don't have any sense of, and I've never really seen anybody explain it, is what happened if you decided to get on your horse and to ride across Central Europe or whatever?
你只是一直往前走，什么都不会改变吗？
Do you just keep going and nothing changes?
是路标，还是门？
Are they posts, gates?
你能察觉到语言的变化以及诸如此类的事情吗？
Are you conscious of the language changing and all this sort of stuff?
我的意思是，在欧亚大陆最宏观的背景下，这不正是最大的问题吗？
I mean, in the context of the broadest context of Eurasia, that is the huge issue, isn't it?
一边是骑马的游牧民族，另一边是其他人。
That you've got horse horse riding nomads, and then you've got everybody else.
或者在中东的背景下，你有骑骆驼的人。
Or in the context of of the Middle East, you've got people on on camels.
因为实际上，最古老的墙是由法国考古学家发现的，他们称之为‘Tres Longueur’，也就是T I A。
Because actually, the the the very oldest wall, I I think, is is escalated by French archaeologists, and they just call it the the Tres Longueur, so the T I A.
很好。
Good.
他们想不出比‘非常长’更好的标题了
They couldn't think of a better title than the very long It's
太棒了。
brilliant.
我觉得它大约有170英里长。
It's it's about, I think, about a 170 miles long.
它位于叙利亚的沙漠中。
It's in the desert of Syria.
它是一种类似艺术的结构，显然是为了阻挡贝都因人和游牧民族而建的。
It's it's a kind of art, and it's it's clearly there to keep the Bedouin, to keep the the the nomads out.
它是所有其他城墙的前身，比如罗马帝国沿莱茵河和多瑙河的防御边界、萨珊帝国、波斯人从黑海到里海的防线，当然还有中国的长城——这一切都源于一种永恒的焦虑：一旦你建立起一个伟大而稳定的文明，而外面有人骑着马，他们就可能闯进来掠夺，这就会带来问题。
And it's the kind of precursor of all those other walls of which the defensive frontiers along the Roman, the Rhine, and the Danube, the Sassanian empires, the Persians, they have one from the the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea, China, of course, that there is this constant anxiety that if you build a great stable civilization and there are people out there on horses, you can come in and grab it, you've got a problem.
即使在城市中，这个问题也存在，不是吗？
The issue is there even with cities, isn't it?
从某种意义上说，最早的城市必须有城墙，否则人们就会进来抢走你的东西。
That the first cities, in a sense, have to walls have to be there because otherwise people will just come in and grab your stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我觉得墙是城市的一个固有组成部分，不是吗？
Think that's well, a wall is part an intrinsic part of a city, isn't it?
边界也是，我的意思是，我认为人们之所以对移民、对报纸上的移民故事如此激动，其中一个原因就是边界是民族国家的固有组成部分——当然这不是唯一原因。
And a border is part of, I mean, is I think one reason why people get so hot under the collar about, I mean, it's not obviously the only reason, but it's one reason why people get very hot under the collar about migration, about the kind of migration stories in the newspapers, is that a border is intrinsic to a nation state.
这是一种民族国家对其不可侵犯性的认知，即拥有一个良好管控的边界，人们不能随意进出。
It's a sort of nation state sense of its own inviolability that you have a sort of well regulated border and that people can't sort of sworn in and out.
这显然是许多人的动机。
And that clearly is a motive for a lot of people.
这就是为什么特朗普在修墙问题上获得了成功。
I mean, that's why Trump got that success with the war.
而且，我想，如果你在思考情感化的墙和边界，不妨想想爱尔兰或北爱尔兰。
And it's also, I suppose, I mean, if you're thinking about emotive walls and borders, think about Ireland or Northern Ireland specifically.
所以你看到了两种不同的情况：北爱尔兰边境，还有贝尔法斯特所谓的和平墙，这些墙是为了将天主教徒和新教徒分隔开来。
So there you've got two different, you've got the Northern Irish border, but you've also got the so called peace walls in Belfast, which are walls to keep people apart, Catholics and Protestants.
你有没有参加过贝尔法斯特所有这些地方的游览？
Have you done that tour in Belfast of all the sort I
没有，我没有去过，没有。
haven't, no, I haven't, no.
我的意思是，从很多方面来看，贝尔法斯特看起来就像一座普通城市——也许有人会对我说这话感到震惊，但你开车经过时，完全可能以为自己身处苏格兰或英格兰北部的某座城市，然后突然出现一堵巨大的墙，把香克尔路和福尔斯路彻底隔开。
I mean, it's extraordinary, know, you know, in lots of ways, Belfast looks like a, you know, you could be in a city and people are probably horrified by me saying this, but you could be in a city in Scotland or Northern England or something, and you're driving along and then there's massive wall, this massive barrier that's keeping, say, the Shankill Road and the Falls Road apart.
而且这些墙原本是有门的。
And they would have gates.
现在它们仍然有门，有时晚上会锁上，以防人们进出。
Well, they still have gates, which are sometimes locked at night so that people can't get in and out.
明白了。
Right.
嗯，我觉得这是一个适合结束上半部分的沉重话题。
Well, that's a I think a somber note on which to end the, first half.
我们将在第二部分回归，回答一些关于围墙和边境的问题。
We'll be back in the second half with some of your questions on walls and borders.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
提醒大家，尽管英国仍处于封锁状态，我们已增加了制作量，每周推出两期播客，持续到二月。
A reminder that we've cracked up production while Britain remains in lockdown, two podcasts a week till February.
所以请随时与我们联系。
So please do get in touch.
我们总会在推特上公布下一期节目的主题，也非常感谢大家的提问。
We will always announce the subject of our next pod on Twitter, and we really do appreciate all your questions.
说到这个，我们马上就会回答大家的问题。
Talking of which, we will be coming to questions in a minute.
但在那之前，多米尼克，你有一个特别想提出的主题。
But, before we do, Dominic, you had a particular theme that you wanted to bring up.
嗯，我
Well, I
我想到了一个我们谈论墙和边界时未曾涉及的话题，那就是飞地，它们非常有趣。
thought of something that we when we're talking about walls and borders, which is something we haven't addressed, which is enclaves, and they are so interesting.
最著名的飞地之一是加里宁格勒，这是一个被如今的波兰（曾是东普鲁士）包围的俄罗斯飞地。
So one of the most famous ones is the city of Kaliningrad, which is a Russian enclave surrounded by basically what's now Poland, but what was East Prussia.
这个城市在历史上最出名的名字是柯尼斯堡，康德的故乡。
And that's the city that was best known for most of history is Konigsberg, city of Immanuel Kant.
苏联在二战结束时占领了这座城市。
The Soviet Union took it at the end of the second world war.
他们没有归还它。
They didn't give it back.
他们永远不会归还它。
They they never will give it back.
如今的居民都是俄罗斯人。
The population is now Russian.
现在，这里成了俄罗斯在欧洲联盟腹地、昔日普鲁士城市中的一处前哨，真是非同寻常。
And there's this sort of outpost of Russianness now in what used to be a Prussian city in the middle of the European Union, An extraordinary thing.
当然，世界上还有很多其他飞地。
And of course, there are lots of enclaves all over the world.
只是我们对它们知之甚少。
We just don't really know much about them.
我想西柏林就是一个飞地，对吧？
I suppose West Berlin was an enclave, wasn't it?
西柏林确实是一个飞地。
West Berlin was an enclave.
没错。
Exactly.
想想那有多奇怪啊。
So I mean, how strange that was.
西柏林几十年来被极其强硬的共产主义东德包围着。
West Berlin surrounded by a very hardcore communist East Germany for decades.
似乎是固定不变的。
Apparently fixed.
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是的。
Yeah.
我了解到印度和后来成为孟加拉国之间的原始边界有一些奇特之处，这条边界最初由西里尔·拉德克利夫划定，他同时也划定了后来成为印度和巴基斯坦的边界。
I was tipped off about the peculiarities of the original border between India and and what ended up as Bangladesh, which of course is drawn by Cyril Radcliffe originally, who who also did the the border between what becomes India and and Pakistan.
结果发现那里有大量的飞地，我想这些飞地直到大约二三十年前才由孟加拉国和印度解决。
And it turns out there were loads of enclaves there that I think only got sorted out between Bangladesh and India kinda like twenty, thirty years ago.
但这实际上印证了我们之前讨论过的关于边境的观点：大多数边境都非常新，因为它们是在帝国解体后才被划定的。
But this actually goes to the point that we were talking about earlier about borders, that most borders are quite recent because they've been constructed in the wake of the disintegration of empires.
当人们在欧洲，特别是在西欧划定边界时，比如奥地利的边界，奥匈帝国解体后，他们不得不举行公民投票来决定卡林西亚是归属奥地利还是南斯拉夫？
When people were drawing borders, in Europe, in Western Europe, so Austria's borders, for example, they had to have plebiscites at the end of the Austro Hungarian empire to decide would Carinthia be Austrian or would it be Yugoslav?
因此，这种任意性总是存在的，如果你不想强迫人们生活在所谓的‘错误’国家，就不得不保留飞地。
So there's always this sort of arbitrariness and you have to have enclaves if you're not gonna force people to live in as it were the wrong country.
我不知道哪种更好，我的意思是，飞地虽然更好，但你刚刚目睹了亚美尼亚和阿塞拜疆之间因纳戈尔诺-卡拉巴赫等飞地而爆发的战争。
And I don't know which is, I mean, enclaves are better, but you've just had a war in Armenia and Azerbaijan about the enclaves, about Nagorno and Karabakh and all that.
我的意思是，其中一个
I mean, one of
我认为，尤其是在那些没有继承威斯特伐利亚条约传统、未能逐渐适应这种体系的地区，帝国实际上更能代表权力的组织方式。
the issues, I suppose, particularly in areas of the world that haven't had the inheritance of the Treaty of Westphalia to have a good growing accustomed to it is that, actually, empires are are far more kind of representative of how power has been organized.
是的。
And Yeah.
我认为，帝国的一个优势在于，你可以拥有飞地，因为大家都是同一个帝国结构的一部分。
One of the advantages, I suppose, of of empires is that you you can have enclaves because you're all part of the same imperial structure.
在中东地区，帝国一直是自古以来自然而然的治理方式，从阿卡德的萨尔贡时代就开始了。
And and, essentially, in the in, you know, in the mid in the Middle East, that's empires have been the the natural way of things going right the way back to the time of Sargon of Akkad.
是的。
Yeah.
巴尔干地区呢。
Well, the Balkans.
巴尔干地区曾经是罗马的。
I mean, the Balkans were Roman.
它们也曾是拜占庭的。
They were Byzantine.
他们也曾是奥斯曼的。
They were Ottoman.
或者是奥匈帝国的。
They or Austro Hungarian.
然后这一切都瓦解了。
Then that all fell apart.
之后，人们就开始争论边界该从哪里开始、到哪里结束。
And then, you know, people just started fighting about where they'd start and end.
但这也正是问题所在，不是吗？
But it's it's also isn't it?
这还与技术的兴起以及制图有关，正如你提到的，没错。
It's it's to do with the rise of technology as well and mapping, as you mentioned Yeah.
在此之前。
Before.
本质上，是有了绘制精确地图、在地图上画线并确保这些界限得到维护的能力。
And, essentially, the ability to the to have accurate maps, to draw lines on them, and then to ensure that those lines are upheld.
那么我们无缝地进入下一个问题，我们有一个来自Paradoximoron的问题。
So moving on to the question seamlessly, we have one from Paradoximoron.
这是个绝佳的名字。
That's an excellent name.
这名字是
That's a
很棒的名字。
great name.
他记得，在我攻读硕士学位时，我不得不写一篇关于世界边界日益收紧的论文。
He remembers, during my master's, I had to write an essay on the hardening of the world's borders.
事实证明，自冷战结束以来，世界上大多数边界都变得更加严密戒备。
It turns out that most of the world's borders have become more heavily guarded since the end of the Cold War.
你认为这是什么原因造成的？
What do you think explains this?
嗯，这个问题要问你了，多米尼克。
Well, this is a question for you, Dominic.
但有一件事一直萦绕在我心头。
But one thing that just hovers on my mind.
你有在看《蛇》这部剧吗？
Have you been watching the serpent?
没有。
No.
就是詹娜·科尔曼演的那个连环杀手剧。
The Jenna Coleman serial killing thing.
对。
Yes.
查尔斯·苏布拉吉，他是上世纪七十年代杀害背包客的连环杀手。
So Charles Subraj, who was a serial killer of backpackers in in the seventies.
围绕这件事的紧张之处在于，当时没有互联网，也没有手机，他可以拿走背包客的护照，而他们就无法脱身。
And the absolute tension about that revolves around the fact that, there's no Internet, there are no mobile phones, that he can take backpackers' passports, then they've got no way of getting out.
你可以把护照里的照片取出来，换上另一张照片，然后当作自己的护照使用。
And you can kind of you can you can take photographs out of a passport and put another photo in and just use it as your own.
你意识到，在四十年、五十年的时间里，技术如何极大地增强了国家监控出入境人员的能力。
And you you realize how, you know, in forty years, how fifty years, how radically technology has has hardened the ability of states to monitor who comes in and out of their countries.
汤姆，我有个关于护照边境的可怕故事要告诉你。
I've got a terrifying passport border story for you, Tom.
我曾经坐过一列从爱沙尼亚到俄罗斯的夜班火车。
I once got an overnight train from Estonia to Russia.
当火车驶入圣彼得堡时，我突然发现我的护照不见了，怎么也找不着。
And as we were pulling into Saint Petersburg, I realized that my passport had disappeared, I couldn't find it anywhere.
这可不是个好情况。
That's not a good point.
这太糟糕了。
It's terrible.
你是个无证件的外国人，正进入弗拉基米尔·普京的
You're an undocumented alien entering Vladimir Putin's
这到底是哪一年？
What year was this?
那是2002年或2003年左右，当时俄罗斯正陷入巨大恐慌，因为发生了许多爆炸事件。
It was about 2002, 2003, but they were in the middle of a huge panic because a lot of bombs were going off in Russia.
我记得当时正处于第二次车臣战争期间。
They're in the second Chechen war, as I remember.
而且，多米尼克，说实话，你看起来就像个车臣恐怖分子。
And and, Dominik, to be honest, you look like a Chechen terrorist.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
你知道那是在哪儿吗？
And you know where it was?
所以，基本上，负责我们卧铺车厢的那位女士进来把所有衣物都收走了。
So basically, the sort of the the the woman who took care of our sleeper carriage had come in and and done all the laundry.
她急着要把所有床单和衣物都收走。
She was desperate to get all this sort of laundry, get all the bed sheets off and everything.
她把我的护照翻了出来，就在这个超大的洗衣袋底部。
And she'd whipped up my passport, and it was at the bottom of this massive laundry bag.
所以你最后找到了吗？
So you managed to find it?
我找到了。
I did.
我闹出了很大的动静，
I made a huge scene,
而它
and it
就是那种‘哦，你一定是搞错了’的情况。
was that Oh, you must have been thing.
就是那种英国式的想法：我想，是在所有其他乘客面前大吵大闹、让自己丢脸更糟，还是干脆去俄罗斯监狱蹲十年？
It was that English thing of I thought, is it worse to make a scene and embarrass myself in front of all the other passengers, or should I just take the ten years in the Russian prison?
但我能理解这确实是个很难抉择的问题
But I can see that's a difficult one to
压在心头。
to weigh on.
自我安慰一下。
Can console myself.
至少我表现得坚忍不拔。
At least I showed a stiff upper lip.
我希望你选择了在监狱待十年。
I hope you took the ten years in prison.
没有。
No.
我没有。
I didn't.
我显然没有。
I didn't clearly
我想哭。
as I wanted cry.
跪下来痛哭吧。
Fall on your knees and sob.
总之，
Anyway,
我们实际上根本没回答paradoxymoron的问题。
we actually haven't answered paradoxymoron's question at all.
所以我对这个问题的回答很简单，就像移民一样。
So my answer to this question is as simple as migration.
移民数量大幅增加，边境管控也随之加强，随着移民潮的涌入，你不这么认为吗？
Migration has hugely increased and borders controls have increased with them, with migrant flows, don't you think?
是的。
Yeah.
但你不觉得，正是因为人们能够强化，边境才变得更为严苛吗？
But don't you think that the borders have hardened because people can harden them?
是的，我想是这样。
Yes, I suppose so.
你知道吗，现在你去美国或其他地方时必须提供指纹，他们会拍你无数张照片之类的，我想以前并没有这样。
You know, so now you have to give a fingerprint when you go into The United States or whatever, you, you know, they take endless photos of you and all that sort of carry on, which I guess they didn't before.
你以前只需要一张纸，然后有个人在桌子对面瞪着你。
You just had a sort of piece of paper and a man glaring at you across the desk.
是的。
Yeah.
现在没有合适的文件你哪儿也去不了，而以前不是这样的。
You can't go anywhere without the right papers now, whereas
没错。
No.
这是因为我们对移民问题太敏感了，不是吗？
That's because we're so sensitive about migration though, isn't it?
我的意思是，1992年左右情况并非如此，那时‘寻求庇护者’这个词在新闻里几乎没人用，大多数欧洲国家的移民数量也很少。
I mean, that wasn't the case in 1992 or something when the phrase asylum seekers was barely used in the news, and immigration into most European countries was pretty low.
你不觉得这是对移民问题焦虑的产物吗？
Don't you think it's a product of the anxiety about that?
是的，我想是这样。
Yeah, I suppose so.
我想是的，没错。
I suppose so, yeah.
但我认为这也关乎于，如果技术已经存在并能让你做某事，那你就会去做。
But I think it's also about, you know, if the technology is there to enable you to do stuff, then you do it.
这就很自然地引出了另一个问题，来自艾米·马特罗瓦迪的提问：是否可以讨论一下中国的防火墙。
Which brings us very neatly on to another question from Amy Matrovadi who asked perhaps a discussion of the great firewall of China.
所以，这就是未来。
So Well, this is the future
墙，对吧，我想是这样？
walls, isn't it, I suppose?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，这是个好问题。
So This is the That's a good question.
所以现在的问题不是你把人挡在外面或关在里面，因为阻止人们进入中国，我想中国人并不太在意。
So is now so now the issue is not you you're keeping people out or in because that's keeping people out of China is not really something that I imagine the Chinese are terribly worried about.
更重要的是阻止思想流入。
It's more about keeping ideas out.
所以，我是不是说得对，中国那边和小熊维尼有些问题？
So am I not right in thinking that there's some issue with Winnie the Pooh in China?
你听说过这件事吗？
Are aware of this?
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
习近平在迪士尼电影中看起来像小熊维尼。
Ji Jinping looking like Winnie the Pooh in the Disney film.
所以小熊维尼在某些方面被压制了，这显然因为他不是一只真正的熊。
And so Winnie the Pooh has been suppressed in some mean, this is clearly gonna be He's a a non bear.
他不是一只真正的熊。
He's a non bear.
这会导致我们的播客在中国被屏蔽。
This is gonna get us our podcast suppressed in China.
天哪。
Oh my god.
但没错。
But yeah.
这有多有效？
How how effective is this?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，只有时间能证明它到底有多有效。
Does it I mean, only time will tell how well it's working.
因为很明显，它在十六世纪的路德宗思想中行不通。
Because clearly, it doesn't work with Lutheran ideas in the sixteenth century.
它在启蒙思想或共产主义中也不起作用。
It doesn't work with enlightenment ideas or communism.
我认为，你无法阻止思想的传播。
You can't keep ideas out, I don't think.
我认为，'中国防火墙'这个说法挺有意思的，因为你们知道，我们说的'长城'这个概念实际上是欧洲人的发明。
I think I mean, I think it the phrase the Great Firewall Of China is kind of interesting because, you know, we're saying how how the idea of the Great Wall Of China is is essentially European invention.
是的。
Yeah.
欧洲人开始前往那里，对这座宏伟的城墙赞不绝口，然后中国人这才意识到自己拥有这样一项了不起的工程。
Europeans start going there and having you know, rhapsodizing about this amazing wall, then the Chinese wake up to the fact that they've got this incredible thing.
于是你开始听到各种说法，比如它是唯一能从月球上看到的建筑，甚至可能从火星上也能看到——我想约瑟夫·尼德汉姆说过这样的话。
And you start getting all these stories about how it's the only structure that you can see from the moon, perhaps even from Mars, I think, Joseph Needham said.
因此，中国人最终为此感到自豪，它成为了他们保护文明免受外部野蛮人侵袭能力的象征。
And so the Chinese become end up very proud of it, and it becomes an emblem of their ability to protect their civilization from the barbarians that that that lie out there.
现在，这些被称为长城的各类防御工事最初是否具有这样的目的，我不知道。
Now whether that was the original purpose of of these kind of various fortifications that collectively have come to be called the Great Wall Of China, I I I don't know.
但我认为，中国是文明的中心，是中央王国，围绕它修建城墙以抵御蛮族，这种观念确实契合了过去一个世纪以来中国民族自豪感的发展轨迹。
But I I think that the idea that China is the great center of civilization, it's the Middle Kingdom, and you put a wall around it to keep the barbarians out, that is something that goes with the grain of Chinese national pride as it's evolved over over the past century, really.
所以，也许这确实是其中的一部分。
So maybe maybe that's a part of it.
而且我认为
And I think
是的，我认为你说得对。
it is, I think actually you're right.
如果你跟中国人谈论这个，他们不会说，这表明了我们的软弱和不安全感。
And that if you talk to Chinese people about it, they don't say, well, this is a sign of weakness and of our insecurity.
他们像你说的那样，认为这是身份的象征：我们是谁，我们掌控着什么可以进来、什么可以出去。
They see it as you say, I think they see it as a sign of, this is who we are, we control what comes in and out.
这体现了我们的成熟和理性，我们不会让互联网像西方那样变成无政府状态的自由市场，我们希望保持一定的监管。
It's a sign of our maturity and that we're sensible, that we don't let the internet become this anarchic free for all that you have in the West, that we want to have a sense of regulation.
当然，
And, of course,
也许他们说得有道理。
Maybe that they've got a point.
嗯，也许吧。
Well, maybe.
我的意思是，谁知道呢？
I mean, who knows?
我的意思是，我们说的是不。
I mean, we're speaking No.
这发生在唐纳德·特朗普被推特封禁后的几天。
This is a couple of days after Donald Trump's been kicked off Twitter.
中国没有人用推特，对吧？
No one in China is on Twitter, are they?
他们基本上是禁止了推特。
They've they've kind of banned it.
他们有自己的，我想他们
They've got their own I think they
有自己并行的系统，对吧？
have their own parallel things, don't they?
是的。
Yeah.
我想是吧。
I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
众所周知，他们并没有罢免伊朗总统。
The famous notoriously, they haven't got rid of president of Iran.
所以他仍然
So he's still
不。
No.
他还在推特上。
He's still on Twitter.
是的。
Yeah.
他还在推特上。
He's still on Twitter.
发推文。
Tweeting.
好吧，这是来自戈恩的另一场现代战争。
Well, here's here's another modern war from Go on.
我希望我发音能正确。
I hope I'm gonna pronounce this right.
佩金·卢卡。
Pekin Luka.
以色列人与巴勒斯坦人之间的隔离战争，取得了多大成功？
The Israeli war separating Israelis from the Palestinians, how successful is it?
谢谢你提出这个非常无争议的问题。
Thank you for asking me this very uncontentious question.
嗯，我想你可以说，它在某种程度上最终是成功的，但仅限于此。
Well, I suppose you can argue it's it's ultimately successful only up to a point.
我其实并不清楚，我从未去过以色列或巴勒斯坦，所以我真的不了解。
I don't really know, and I've never been to Israel or indeed Palestine, so I don't really know.
我没有第一手经验，也不打算妄加评论，但关键是，你可以建一堵墙，但另一边的人依然在那里，对吧？
I don't have any firsthand experience or wish to draw, but I mean, the thing with the wall is you can build a wall, but the other people are still there, right?
问题依然存在，并不会消失。
And the issue is still there, it doesn't go away.
所以，如果你找一个以色列发言人，他们会说，这改善了安全之类的。
So, I mean, Israeli, if you had an Israeli spokesman, they would say, well, it's improved security or whatever.
但当然，我想对以色列人来说，关键在于，这堵墙在什么时候会因为国际舆论的负面影响而成为更大的问题？
But of course the point I suppose for the Israelis is at what point does that wall become a greater problem because of the international PR damage?
在什么情况下，这反而会损害你的事业而不是
At what point does it harm your cause rather than
帮助它？
help it?
我对这个问题没有答案。
I don't have an answer to that.
我的意思是，就像在中国一样，在近东地区也有着悠久的历史。
I mean, again, as as in as in China, so in so so in the Near East, there's a lot of history there.
巴勒斯坦领土上的一个城镇是杰里科，
So one of the towns in Palestinian territories is Jericho,
是的。
which Yeah.
可能拥有历史上最著名、最完整的水池之一。
Possibly has some of the most famous fullest pools.
整个历史上。
In all of history.
而且，你知道，在整个近东地区，到处都是所谓的‘土丘’，这些曾经是城市的地方现在变成了尘土堆。
And, you know, all over the Near East, you've got these kind of what are called tells, so dust mounds that were once cities.
而且，你知道，我们在叙利亚那边还有非常长的城墙。
And, you know, we've we've got the the the very long wall as well out in out in Syria.
所以，可以说，相比世界其他任何地方，这一地区城墙的历史尤为悠久。
So you do I mean, perhaps of more than anywhere else in the world, in that area of the world, you walls have an incredibly long history.
我想，以色列人生活在这样极其古老的历史阴影之下。
And I suppose that, you know, the Israelis live in that live in the shadow of that kind of incredibly ancient history.
哦，好吧，接下来是奥利·奥布莱恩的另一个问题，这我们之前已经提到过。
Oh, well, So here's the next one from Ollie O'Brien, and this is something we've already touched on.
边界是什么时候真正成为一种存在的？
When did borders become an actual thing?
是1648年《威斯特伐利亚和约》的时候，还是直到更快的交通和更多人乘坐火车旅行之后？
1648 and the Treaty of Westphalia or not until faster transport and more people traveling by train?
比如德国统一，我想就是这样一个例子。
An example being German unification, I suppose.
我想，我们的讨论其实一直在围绕着这个问题打转。
I think, I mean, I think we've been kind of hovering around that question, really.
当你
When you
我们现在所理解的边界——有着明确的界碑、卫星定位精确划定边界的线——
Borders, as we understand them now, definite lines with border posts, you know, satellite absolutely determine where exactly these borders are.
我们是什么时候开始认为边界是地图上明确的线条，而不仅仅是模糊的控制区域或边疆地带的呢？
When did we start getting the idea that they are definite lines on a map rather than just kind of vague areas of control, kind of frontier regions?
汤姆，我确实没有答案。
I don't actually have an answer to that, Tom.
我觉得他提到火车很有趣，因为显然，有人认为火车发明了时间。
I think it's interesting he mentions train because obviously trains, some people argue trains invented time.
火车时刻表创造了一种全国统一的时钟体系，每个车站的时间都一致，诸如此类。
So train timetables invent a kind of national uniformity of clocks, every station has the same time and all the rest of it.
那么，究竟在什么时候——这让我感到困惑，真的让我很困惑。
At what point, I mean, is the thing that puzzles me actually, that genuinely puzzles me.
当你骑着马，从法国进入卢森堡，再进入后来成为德国的某个邦国时，你是在哪个时刻意识到的？
At what point are you on your horse and you're in France, then you're in Luxembourg, then you're in one of the states of what becomes Germany.
你对此有多敏感？
How conscious are you of it?
有人会拦住你吗？
Is there somebody stopping you?
到底在哪个时刻，会有人拦住你？
And at what point is there somebody stopping you?
我猜我们说的是十九世纪，但我不确定。
My guess is we're talking nineteenth century, but I don't know.
当人们进行壮游时，他们不需要携带大量文件，也不需要停下来接受行李检查。
And when people did the grand tour, they didn't need to take loads of documents with them and they didn't have to stop and have their bags searched.
我推测，旅行成本如此高昂，如果你在旅行，人们自然会认为你是贵族老爷，意味着你有钱。
I suppose travel was so expensive that if you were traveling, you were automatically assumed to be a mill lord and that meant money.
所以会有人欢迎你
So someone would welcome you
张开双臂欢迎。
with open arms.
那是英国游客在欧洲大陆仍受欢迎的快乐时光。
Happy days when British tourists were were still welcome on the continent.
但有一件事。
But one thing
我们留下了大量的大理石。
We're left with bags of marble.
从一个完全不同的角度来看，也许古代边界的一个特征就是土地的神圣性。
Coming coming from a very different angle is that perhaps one of the things that constitutes a border, say, in antiquity, is the idea that the land is sacred.
在雅典和阿提卡地区，雅典在古希腊是不寻常的，因为它控制着如此广大的领土。
So in Athens and Attica I mean, Athens is unusual in ancient Greece because it controls such a a large quantity of territory.
而这片领土被视为神圣的。
And that territory is seen as being sacred.
因此，雅典人认为自己是土地的原住民，由大地所生。
So the Athenians see themselves as being autocthonous, born from the soil.
你必须埋葬在雅典的土地上。
And you have to be buried in Athenian soil.
除非你出生在雅典的土地上，否则你就不算雅典人。
And unless if, you know, if you are born from Athenian soil, then you are Athenian.
没有其他方式可以成为雅典人。
There's no other way you can become Athenian.
所以，如果你认为土地本身是神圣的，我想这同样也适用于以色列，即应许之地、圣地的概念。
So I suppose if you have a sense of this that that the the earth itself is sacred, and I suppose that's that again, that's part of Israel as well, the idea of of a promised land, a holy land.
对于罗马人来说，有一个叫做‘波莫里乌姆’的神圣边界，它标志着城市的神圣界限。
With the Romans, you have a thing called the Pomerium, which is a a sacred border that marks the sacral limits of the city.
因此，如果你认为土地是神圣的，那么很自然地，你也会对边界有所认知。
So if you have a sense that land is sacred, then I suppose inevitably you probably have a sense of of borders as well.
我不确定
I'm not sure
关于这一点
about that,
一些我
something to I
意思是，现在流行的说法是，边界总是流动的，它们非常有趣，比无边界的情况有趣得多，诸如此类。
mean, sort of trendy thing to say, right, is that borders are always fluid and they're terribly interesting and they're much more interesting than non borders and all the rest of it.
但边界并不总是那么流动。
But borders aren't always that fluid.
我之前提到过西班牙和葡萄牙，那个边界在过去八百年里基本保持不变。
So I mentioned Spain and Portugal earlier, I mean, that border has remained pretty much where it is for I think eight hundred years.
在这段漫长的时间里，两边的人对自己有着清晰的认同。
And the people on either side, in all that time, they've had a pretty clear sense of themselves.
我们是葡萄牙人。
We're Portuguese.
你是西班牙人。
You're Spanish.
我的意思是，肯定有过三次流感
I mean, there must have been three of flu
但他们并不认为自己是西班牙人，对吧？
But but but they but they don't think they're Spanish, do they?
因为在这个边界内，不。
Because within that border No.
我想是的。
I suppose
那是一些其他的边界。
that's kinds of other borders.
所以，那些即将成为安达卢斯、瓦伦西亚、卡斯蒂利亚等等的地区之间的边界，是的。
So the the borders between, you know, what's gonna become, you know, Al Andalus and then Valencia and Castile and, you know, all these Yeah.
不。
No.
我的意思是，那些边界是在不断变化和移动的。
I mean, that's kind of shifting and changing.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
也许你确实有。
Perhaps you have yeah.
那么南美洲的边界呢？
So And the borders in South America.
对吧？
Right?
南美洲的边界常常遵循西班牙帝国的内部格局。
The borders in South America follow often the patterns within the Spanish empire.
所以，这些划分是怎么回事？你知道，为什么会有阿根廷、智利、乌拉圭这些地方？
So division divisions, you know, why is there Argentina and a a Chile and a Uruguay and all these places?
它们通常遵循西班牙帝国的行政划分。
Often they follow the administrative divisions of the Spanish empire.
实际上，玻利瓦尔在独立战争的辉煌时代，曾梦想建立一个庞大的“大哥伦比亚”国家。
And actually Bolivar, when they, you know, in the great age of sort of independence fighting, he dreamed of a Gran Colombia, this big super state.
但这个计划失败了，因为各地的精英阶层都想牢牢守住自己的边界。
And it and it failed because the individual elites wanted to cling onto their borders.
他们想要自己的小权力基地。
They wanted their little power bases.
英国人也是如此。
And the British as well.
我的意思是，几乎在全球各地，只要哪里有特别棘手的、令人恐惧的热点，就会发现英国制图师曾经到过那里。
I mean, almost across the globe, wherever there's some particularly Thorny.
他们确实去过，你知道的，从北爱尔兰一直到……
Terrifying flash point, it turns out that a British mapmaker Yes.
他们确实去过，你知道的，从北爱尔兰一直到……
Been there, you know, from Northern Ireland through
不过，汤姆，我总是觉得，后世的人们把责任推给那些邪恶的制图师，这简直是个绝佳的借口，不是吗？
Although, Tom, I always I I always I always think this is a great cop out, isn't it, for people generations later to say, oh, it's the fault of those evil Macmakers.
实际上，我明明需要去屠杀我的邻居，却说这完全不是我的错。
And, actually, I I really need to go and massacre my neighbors, and it's not my fault at all.
嗯，我想英国人和西班牙人来自一个边境概念被视为理所当然的大陆，而他们来到的世界部分地区，边境观念却相当陌生。
Well, I I but I suppose the British and Spanish are coming from a continent in which the idea these idea of borders is taken for granted and going to parts of the world where they're they're kind of rather alien ideas.
因为二十世纪西方势力占据绝对主导地位
And because western power was so preponderant over the twentieth century
是的。
Yeah.
这种观念因此被视为理所当然，并体现在联合国等机构中。
This idea was kind of taken for granted and is implicit in the United Nations and things.
但实际上，这反映的是西方势力如今正在衰退的时代。
But it's actually it's it's expressive of an age of of, of western power that is in retreat now.
所以我不确定这种威斯特伐利亚式的边界观念是否会随之消退。
So I don't know whether the the the notion of a kind of Westphalian border will fade as well.
我不知道。
Don't know.
这相当有趣。
That's quite interesting.
而且我想，还有另一个观点。
And and I guess, actually, one other point.
确实有一个观点。
There is a point.
也许我们英国人对边界太过随意了，正是因为咱们没有边界。
Maybe we British are too cavalier about borders precisely because we don't have one.
不过可能会有。
Yet.
但如果苏格兰独立公投的结果如我所料——我认为那是错误的方向——但也不一定。
But we may if the Scottish independence vote goes, what I would think be be the wrong way, but not necessary.
给苏格兰人再提一个问题。
One for the Scottish Here's here's another, question.
同样，我希望我发音正确。
Again, I hope I pronounced this right.
蒂姆·奇普洛夫斯基。
Tim Chyplowski.
奇普洛夫斯基。
Chyplowski.
奇普洛夫斯基。
Chyplowski.
最后一个仍在运作的城墙城市是哪一个？它们将来会复兴吗？
What was the last functioning walled city, and will they ever make a comeback?
我不知道。
I don't know that.
你呢？
Do you?
还有很多仍在运作的城墙城市，但我想，人们不再围攻它们了。
So there are lots of walled cities still which function, but I mean, people don't besiege them, I suppose.
那就是
That is that
那是什么，我
what is that what I
你在找的吗？
was looking for?
因为你怎么能
Because how do you
嗯，也许一座城市，其城墙是其功能的重要组成部分。
Well, maybe maybe a city where the wall is is is an important part of its functioning.
人们不允许进出，或者不是。
People aren't allowed in or out or not.
我的意思是，还有有城墙的城市，不是吗？
I mean, there are walled cities, aren't there?
最著名的城墙城市。
Best walled city.
我告诉你，绝大多数的
I I'll tell you the vast majority of
可能就是其中之一，我想。
might be one, I suppose.
它的绝大多数。
The vast majority of it.
所以这界定了范围。
So that marks out the limits.
我告诉你，你一定去过杜布罗夫尼克，汤姆。
I'll tell you a very have you been to you must have been to Dubrovnik, Tom.
那堵墙，我的意思是，墙
That's a very I mean, the wall
我从没去过杜布罗夫尼克。
is I've never been to Dubrovnik.
没有。
No.
我所以
I So
墙是杜布罗夫尼克的一大特色。
the wall is is a huge element of Dubrovnik's.
所以杜布罗夫尼克就像《权力的游戏》中的君临城。
So Dubrovnik, as you is King's Landing from King of Thrones.
城墙是杜布罗夫尼克吸引力的重要组成部分。
And the wall is a huge element of Dubrovnik's appeal.
城墙实际上既成就了杜布罗夫尼克，也毁掉了它——因为它是吸引人们前来的理由。
And the wall has actually both made and destroyed Dubrovnik in the sense that it's the reason people go.
但由于人们蜂拥而至，它已变成一个类似迪士尼化的度假胜地，停靠着巨大的邮轮，逐渐侵蚀了它的独特魅力。
And because people go, it has become a sort of Disneyfied resort with colossal cruise ships, which has leached it of its character.
但就古城墙而言，这绝对是您这辈子去过的最棒的城墙城市。
But in terms of walled cities, I mean, that is the best walled city you'll ever go to.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，它绝对在我清单上，每次我想到能去亲眼看看它，都会心驰神往。
Well, it's I it's absolutely on my list, and, you know, dream every time when I can go and see it.
但关于最后仍 functioning 的城墙城市，我的答案是梵蒂冈。
But I would I my answer to that last functioning walled city would be the Vatican.
不过我可能说错了，因为我并不是城墙城市的专家。
So but I may have got that wrong because I'm not an expert in walled city.
所以，如果在场的任何人有更好的建议，我们非常乐意听取。
So if you if if anyone out there has a better suggestion, we'd we'd love to hear from you.
但我还想问你另一个来自AJ·布雷默的问题。
But I was gonna give you another question from AJ Bremner.
一面墙只有在有人守卫的情况下才算成功的墙吗？
Is a wall only a successful wall if it's guarded?
好问题。
Good question.
是的。
Yes.
我想，如果你不守卫这面墙，那它存在的意义是什么？
I suppose it well, if you're not guarding a wall, what's the point of it?
我的意思是，关于哈德良长城，有一群研究者正在争论墙上是否曾有步道。
I mean, there's there's an there's an interesting debate among Hadrian's wallologists about whether there was a walkway on the wall.
我的意思是，你可能会假设是有的。
I mean, you'd assume that there
有的。
there were.
在墙上？
On the wall?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，士兵们可以在墙上上下走动。
So, you know, the soldiers can walk up and down the wall.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个备受争议的话题。
There's it's it's a topic of massive debate.
你知道，考古学家们对此争论不休。
You know, archaeologists fall out about this.
那么，肯定有成千上万本书是完全错误且冗余的，它们描绘士兵们从墙上向外张望。
Then there must be thousands of books that are utterly erroneous and redundant to which soldiers are looking out from the wall.
我知道我的意思。
I know what I mean.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
我肯定读过上千篇文章，里面都说非洲士兵正从墙外眺望，而这，嗯，是
Surely, I mean, I must have read a thousand articles in which African soldiers are looking out over the wall and this Well, is a
他们在堡垒里。
they're in forts.
所以显然，它们起着某种防御作用。
So clearly, are serving a kind of defensive purpose.
但这堵墙被视为更像一个海关标志，或者我们之前讨论过的权力象征，它并不是真正用于防御的平台。
But the wall is seen as being more of a kind of customs marker or, we talked about of power or something, that it's not a platform for actually defending against
所以用你的《权力的游戏》类比来说，没有人像野人一样冲向城墙并被击退，有这方面的证据吗？
So to use your Game of Thrones analogy, it's not people aren't wildlings aren't hurling themselves at the wall and being beaten back by Was there any evidence of that?
有没有人曾经攻击过哈德良长城？
Did anybody ever attack the wall, Hadrian's Wall?
有。
Yeah.
我们有记录显示有人攻击过它、绕过它、甚至突破过它。
We got records of of of people attacking it, going, going around it, breaking through it.
所以它一定具有某种防御功能。
So it must have had some kind of defensive purpose.
但问题是，是否有士兵在城墙上巡逻，这大概是人们对此的刻板印象。
But the the question is whether there were soldiers kind of walking up and down it, which is, I guess, the the stereotype of it.
你想象中发生的就是这样，但这一直存在很大争议。
That's what you imagine happened, but it's it's much debated.
嗯，我认为我们必须划清界限。
Well, I think we we must draw a line
建一道墙？
Draw a wall?
在这下面。
Under this.
我有一堵墙。
I've got a wall.
我给你，汤姆，一堵墙。
I've got a wall for you, Tom.
你知道科特斯洛墙吗？
Do you know about the Cottesloe Wall?
不知道。
No.
我
I
也不知道。
don't.
是的。
Yeah.
但牛津的科特斯洛墙。
But the Cottesloe Walls in Oxford.
所以谢丽尔·哈德森在推特上告诉我们这件事，这是我最喜欢的墙之一，因为这对很多人来说都非常令人惊讶。
So Cheryl Hudson tweeted us about this, and I it's one of my favorite walls because this is very surprising to a lot of people.
所以这两堵墙基本上是20世纪30年代在牛津建造的，用以分隔中产阶级和工人阶级区域。
So these are two walls basically that went up in Oxford in the 1930s to separate the middle class and working class areas.
简单来说，当时一位开发商有权建造大量房屋，他建起了一道带尖刺的墙，以阻止当地市政住房区的人们试图进入。
So basically what happened was a developer had the right to build a load of houses and he put up a spiked wall to deter people from the local council estate from trying to get in.
这些墙存在了大约二十五年。
And these walls stayed for about twenty five years.
它们引起了极大的争议。
And they were incredibly controversial.
我的天，这太惊人了。
I mean, sort of That's amazing.
人们为此进行了抗议。
People campaigned against them.
我的意思是，它们在1950年到1959年间被拆除了。
I mean, 1950 they came down 1959.
所以，如果你在1958年去牛津，你会看到一条街道，中间竖着一道带尖刺的墙，把市政住房的租户挡在外面。
So if you'd gone to Oxford in 1958, you'd have found a street where you'd walk along, there'd be a spiked wall in the middle of the street to keep the council tenants out.
这合法吗？
And this was legal?
是的。
Yeah.
当时爆发了大规模的法律纠纷。
Well, there were huge legal battles.
争斗持续了很久，开发商拒绝拆除这堵墙。
It went on and on, and the developers refused to take it down.
而市政当局则不断寻找漏洞，因此无法强制执行拆除。
And the council, you know, they kept finding loopholes so the council couldn't enforce it.
当然，很多人但当地居民都大力支持。
And of course, a lot of people But were hugely shocked by the home local homeowners were all for it.
他们并不想要这样。
They didn't want it.
这仅仅发生在牛津吗？
And this is only something that happened in Oxford?
是的。
Yes.
我想是的。
I think so.
我的意思是，也许听众想知道其他类似的事件，但我认为牛津
I mean, maybe listeners want to know of other such wars, but I think Oxford
这证实了我对牛津的更阴暗的猜测。
That just confirms my darker suspicions of Oxford.
关于牛津。
Of Oxford.
嗯，你找的是那个人，不是你，所以你不会
Well, you you came to the man, not you, so you wouldn't
你不会
you wouldn't
有这种
have this sort of
不意外。
Not surprised.
好吧，让我们为这件令人遗憾的事画上句号，建一堵墙，结束这个播客。
Well, let's let's let's draw a line under this whole sorry business, build a wall, end this podcast.
多米尼克和我要去执行哨兵任务了。
Dominic and I are going to go off and do some sentry duty.
非常感谢大家收听。
Thanks very much for listening to us.
我们将会
We'll be
周四回来。
back on Thursday.
下次见。
See you next time.
感谢收听，其余的都是历史。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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