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大家好，欢迎来到《余下的历史》，今天我们将重磅开启，话题是庞贝、赫库兰尼姆、维苏威火山，等等。
Hello, and welcome to the rest is history where today we are going off with a bang because we are talking about Pompeii, Herculaneum, Vesuvius, the works.
我是汤姆·荷兰德，和我一起的是我的共谋者多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。
I'm Tom Holland and with me is my co conspirator Dominic Sandbrook.
多米尼克，非常非常感谢你让我来讲述庞贝的故事。
Dominic, thank you very, very much for allowing me to do Pompeii.
你真是太好了。
It's really kind of you.
汤姆，你不敢独自面对我吧？
You don't dare to face me on your own, do you, Tom?
不过，这倒是真的。
That's true, though.
那
That
没错，这确实是事实，而且我非常高兴地宣布，今天我们有一位特别嘉宾加入我们。
that that's true, and I'm very, very happy to announce that we have a very special guest with us today.
索菲·海是一位考古学家，曾在庞贝及周边地区工作了二十五年，负责管理庞贝的社交媒体账号，即将出版一本关于在庞贝工作的女性考古学家的书籍，因此没有人比她更适合谈论这个遗址了。
Sophie Hay, who is an archaeologist who's worked at Pompeii and the adjoining areas for twenty five years, runs the Pompeii social media accounts, is just about to start a book on women archaeologists who worked at Pompeii, so there couldn't be anyone better to talk about the site.
索菲，欢迎来到我们的播客。
Sophie, welcome to the podcast.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你好。
Hello.
欢迎，太棒了。
Welcome, fab.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
很高兴见到你，索菲。
It's a pleasure, Sophie.
显然，我非常兴奋能做一期关于庞贝的节目。
So obviously, I'm terribly excited to be doing one on Pompeii.
我也是，汤姆。
Me too, Tom.
我也是。
Me too.
我觉得把第一个问题交给多米尼克来问才公平，否则我都要因为太兴奋而爆炸了。
I think it would only be fair to hand over to Dominic to ask the first question because otherwise, I'm just gonna kind of explode with excitement.
好的。
Okay.
谢谢你，汤姆。
Thank you, Tom.
嗯，索菲，2007年我和妻子去庞贝度蜜月。
Well, Sophie, I went to Pompeii on honeymoon in 2007
明智的选择。
Good choice.
当然，还有几十亿其他人。
Along with, you know, a billion other people.
那是个挺奇怪的地方，对吧？
And it's a it's a kind of weird place, isn't it?
因为它既是考古遗址，你可以挖掘历史文物并了解历史，但同时也基本上像个罗马版的迪士尼世界。
Because it's both an archaeological site where you sort of dig for historical artifacts and for insights into history, but it's also basically the Roman Disney world.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，那里有种张力，不是吗？
I mean, there's a kind of tension there, isn't there?
那一定感觉很奇怪。
It's a sort of strange must be
对你来说，那是你的工作场所。
a weird thing for you for whom it's work.
而大多数人只是来一日游，对纪念品商店、遮阳伞、可乐之类的东西感兴趣。
And most people just go on a day trip, and they're interested in the gift shop and then, you know, sunshades and Coke and all this sort of stuff.
所以，在这一切中间工作，你觉得奇怪吗？
So does that seem kind of weird to you to be working amidst all that?
这很有趣。
It's it's interesting.
我的意思是，当我在那里工作时，主要是在游客无法进入的区域，所以某种程度上，我被屏蔽在这一切之外。
I mean, when I was working there, was mainly in a part where the tourists couldn't be, so I was kind of, you know, shielded from all of that.
但我曾经在广场工作过，那时感觉自己就像一个博物馆展品，游客走过来问：‘你们找到恐龙了吗？’
But I did work in the forum at one point and that it was like being a sort of museum exhibit yourself, tourists coming up saying, have you found any dinosaurs yet?
我肯定出现在大约六十亿人的相册里，因为每个人都在拍照。
And I must be in about 6,000,000,000 people's photograph albums cause everyone's taking photographs.
所以，当这一切真的直面我时，确实很奇怪。
So yeah, that kind of when it was really in my face, it was weird.
工作也特别慢，因为你只是在回答问题。
It also work was very slow because you were just answering questions.
但这也很棒，因为你知道你所做的事情对这么多人来说意义重大。
But it's also great cause you know that what you're doing matters and means something to so many people.
所以，这方面我非常喜欢。
So there's a kind of that side of it I adore.
我只是喜欢人们对我们所做之事持续的好奇和不断提问。
I just love people's fascination, continual sort of questions about sight on what we're doing.
是的。
Yeah.
你不觉得这有点让人不安吗？每年有那么多载满美国游客、中国游客和英国游客的大巴来到庞贝，逛一圈然后就离开了。
It doesn't make you uneasy that it's become a kind of a sort of, well, you know, how many coach loads of American Chinese and well, British tourists go to Pompeii every year and sort of troop around and then troop off again.
是的，这部分总让我感到难过。
Yeah, no, that bit always makes me sad.
我只是觉得他们只去三个主要地方。
I just think they do, they go to three main things.
他们去看广场，去看妓院，在妓院里笑一笑，然后去参观一栋房子，之后就回到大巴上，去别处吃顿美味的午餐。
They see the forum, they see the brothel, they laugh in the brothel, then they go and see one house and then they're back on their coach and they go off to have a nice lunch somewhere.
这确实让我觉得他们没有充分体验到一切，但与此同时，也……
It does because I just feel like they haven't had the most of it, but you know, at the same time, there
也有人在那里待上好几天，真正努力去感受一切。
are people who stay there for days on end and, you know, really try and embrace everything.
索菲，你刚才暗示了，显然很多地方对公众开放，但也有相当一部分没有开放，甚至更多地方尚未被发掘。
Sophie, you you you hinted at at the fact that, obviously, lots of it is open to the public, but also quite a lot isn't, and even more hasn't even been excavated.
是的。
Yeah.
目前正在进行的一项令人兴奋的工作是，出现了新一轮的发掘热潮。
And one of the excitements that's going on at the moment is that there's a kind of a surge of fresh excavations.
你能给我们介绍一下，还有多少地方有待发掘，以及最近最令人兴奋的发现是什么吗？
So can you just give us a sense of how much remains to be opened and what the most exciting recent discoveries have been?
要说出还有多少地方有待发掘真的很难，因为情况每五分钟都在变化。
Well, what remains to be opened is really hard to say because it changes every five minutes.
他们在进行保护工作时，会打开一座新房子，但同时又关闭另一座，让这些地方能从游客背着背包、在壁画上乱刻乱划的频繁出入中得到喘息。
As they're doing conservation, they open up a new house, but then they close another one so that it kind of gets a break from tourists trooping in and out with their backpacks, scratching along the frescoes and things.
这个遗址一直处于不断变化的状态。
It's kind of always in kind of flux, the site.
有些地方只在上午开放。
It's it's there's, you know, and some are only open in the morning.
有些古迹只在下午开放。
Some buildings are only open in the afternoon.
所以他们试图稍微错开开放时间，以提供一些帮助。
So they're trying to kind of stagger it a bit just to kind of help.
但就完全未被发掘的部分而言，约占整个城镇的三分之一。
But in terms of what hasn't been excavated at all, it's about one third of the town.
仍有大量区域尚未被发掘。
It's still a huge amount that hasn't been excavated.
此外，上面还种着番茄农场，我以前常去那儿偷三明治，所以我知道它们就在那儿。
And on top of that, there's sort of farms growing tomatoes, which I used to go and steal sandwiches, which is why I know they're up.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，众所周知，土壤如此肥沃的原因是因为它是火山土。
And of course, because famously, the reason why the soil is so fertile is because it's volcanic.
没错。
Exactly.
所以某种程度上，
So in a sense,
这简直是一种魔鬼的交易，不是吗？
it's kind of devil's bargain, isn't there?
所以我想，在大致勾勒了目前你能看到的东西和现状之后，我们应该简要谈谈庞贝和赫库兰尼姆是如何被保存下来的，因为这可能是历史上最著名的火山爆发，不是吗？
So I guess we should, having just kind of vaguely sketched out what you can see and what what the state of play is now, we should talk briefly about how it is that Pompeii and Herculaneum have been preserved because it's probably the most famous volcanic explosion in history, isn't
是的，我同意。
Yeah, I would go with that.
是的，整个喷发过程大约持续了二十四小时左右。
Yes, so the whole eruption took sort of twenty four hours, I think, in total.
所以这有点像缓慢燃烧的火山，这也是为什么我们发现那么多人仍然留在原地，因为人们一直以为我们会没事的，我们会没事的。
So it was kind of a bit of a slow burner, which is why, you know, we find, I think, so many people still there because people kept thinking, we'll be okay, we'll be okay.
但最初他们看到的是，一股烟柱和气体从山体中喷涌而出。
But the first thing they saw really was this kind of column of smoke coming and as a cloud of gas coming out of the out of the mountain.
我们之所以知道这些，是因为小普林尼——老普林尼的侄子——当时正在记录这一事件，否则我们根本无从知晓。
And we know about this because Pliny the younger, who was the nephew of Pliny the elder was actually writing about this at the time, otherwise we wouldn't have a clue.
所以我们对这次火山喷发有着非常出色的目击记录。
So we have a really nice eyewitness account of this this eruption.
这股由灰烬和气体组成的柱状物上升到了大约30公里的高空，然后自行坍塌。
And, this this column of of ash and and gases rose up to about, I think it was about 30 kilometers up into the air and then collapsed on itself.
正是这时，大量的浮石开始如雨般落下，逐渐覆盖了这座城市。
And that's when we kind of get all the pumice stone raining down, starting to cover the city.
但这个过程持续了很长时间。
But this takes so long.
我的意思是，人们经历了好几个小时，一直觉得也许我们会没事的。
I mean, there's sort of hours of this that people are kind of, well, maybe we'll be all right.
然后，当这些物质在城镇中不断堆积时
And then, you know, as builds up in the town and
这些物质是逐渐堆积起来的。
the material kind of gradually.
之前发生过类似的情况吗？
So had happened before?
换句话说，我的意思是，从某种意义上说，是的。
So in other words, mean, in terms of yes.
所以人们当时以为火山活动可能会过去，或者只是有点麻烦，但我们能挺过去的。
So people were when they thought it's probably gonna go away or it'll be a bit of a pain, but we'll get over it.
他们并没有完全疯了。
They weren't being completely demented.
嗯，毕竟上一次火山爆发差不多是在两千年前。
Well, they had I mean, the the previous one was sort of nearly two thousand years beforehand.
所以火山一定曾经轰鸣过，而且
So But the volcano must have rumbled and
抛出了物质。
thrown stuff.
是的，他们对火山喷发是有概念的。
Yeah, they had the concept of an eruption.
他们对地震也有概念。
They had concepts of earthquakes.
他们经历了多次地震，很清楚自己身处一个不稳定的区域，但却完全不知道火山喷发这回事。
They had a lot of earthquakes and they were well aware that they were in an unstable area, they had no clue, not an inkling as to the idea of an eruption.
就连老普林尼，这位自然历史的权威，也根本没认为维苏威火山是一座火山。
And even Pliny the Elder, who is mister sort of natural history, he didn't really even think that Vesuvius was was a volcano anyway.
所以，我的意思是，连当时那些有知识的人都不知道。
So, I mean, you know, not even the known knew.
你知道，你拍错了镜头。
You know, you get the wrong shot.
没错。
Exactly.
那是头颅的
There's the head of
你觉得那是什么？
What do you think it was?
只是一座冒着大量烟雾的山。
Just a mountain with a lot of smoke.
名字里就有线索，不是吗？
It's there in the names, isn't it?
因为传说中，赫拉克勒斯——这位我们之前可能聊过的伟大英雄——来到意大利，当时巨人反抗众神，于是他把他们压在了维苏威火山之下。
Because the story is, is that Hercules, the great hero who I'm sure we've talked about before, Dominion, there are many podcasts The about Greek story is that he comes to Italy, and the giants are rebellious against the gods, and so he shoves them underneath Vesuvius.
所以人们认为，这些巨人正在不停地抽搐、颤抖和痉挛
And so the idea is that they're kind of twitching and shaking and convulsing
这一定就是那种地震。
That and must be the this sort of earthquake.
这就引发了地震。
Which generates the earthquake.
没错。
Yeah.
赫拉克勒斯把自己的名字给了赫库兰尼姆，据说他还举行过一场凯旋游行，希腊语中称为“庞贝”，这大概就是庞贝这个名字的由来。
And and Hercules gives his name to Herculaneum, and he's supposed to have had a a victory procession, which in Greek is Pompeii, which is supposedly where the name Pompeii comes from.
所以当时一定有人隐约意识到这一点。
So there must have been some kind of idea that Yeah.
可能存在危险。
Potentially there was danger.
但正如我所说，我对这个完全不了解。
But as say, I mean, no idea about
从地球轻微震动到……这中间的跨度太大了。
It's the a long stretch from, you know, the earth shaking a bit to
是的。
Yeah.
现在人们不是也住在地震带上吗？
And people live in earthquake zones now, don't they?
我的意思是，人们住在洛杉矶或伊斯坦布尔，对吧。
I mean, people live in LA or Istanbul or Exactly.
现在人们也住在火山脚下。
And they live under volcanoes now too.
你知道的，我住在那里整整四年。
And, you know, it was when I lived there, I lived there solidly for four years.
所以我认识了当地的居民。
So I got to know, you know, the locals.
关于人们在火山喷发时是否留在城里，大家的意见严重分歧。
And it was a real split camp on whether people would stay in the city during an eruption or not.
当然，其中一些人曾经亲身经历过1944年的上一次喷发。
And of course, some of them had actually lived through the last eruption, which was in 1944.
所以他们多少知道，嗯，潜在的灾难风险是存在的，但他们并不愿意离开。
So they kind of knew, you know, and they know that there was sort of potential disaster, but they weren't prepared to leave.
那是他们的家，你知道，他们打算就留在那里。
That was their home, you know, that was where they were gonna stay.
然后我遇到了一些骑摩托车逃命的朋友，那就是——你知道的——我选择跟随的那群人。
And then I found some friends who were on a motorbike and getting the hell out and that's, you know, that's what I those are the friends I stuck with.
索菲，给我们讲讲庞贝在喷发前的规模和重要性吧。
And give us some sense, Sophie, of the sort of size and importance of Pompeii before the eruption happened.
所以它离那不勒斯并不远吧？我的意思是，那不勒斯当时应该比内波利斯大得多吧？
So is it, it's not that far from, I mean, Naples was presumably a bigger place than was it, Neapolis?
是的，就是那不勒斯，没错。
Yeah, Neapolis, exactly.
它算是个度假小镇，还是个市场城镇？
And was it a sort of, was it a resort town, a market town?
它更像一个港口城镇。
It's more of a port town.
赫库兰尼姆则更像那种……是的。
So Herculaneum was more the kind of Yeah.
而庞贝则完全是一个工商业城镇。
And Pompeii was very much a kind of working town.
但有趣的是，人们总说庞贝是个很普通的小镇。
But it's interesting because people always say, well, Pompeii is a kind of bog standard town.
我不记得是谁说的了，但确实有人这么说过。
It's like, I can't remember who said it, but someone said it.
雷丁，不是
Redding, isn't
吗？
it?
没错。
Exactly.
差不多是那样。
Something like that.
萨夫伦沃登，有人把它比作。
Saffron Walden, think it's been compared to.
但我并不真的这么认为。
But I don't really think it is.
我的意思是，我曾广泛游历过罗马帝国各地，我认为它实际上独树一帜，是个令人惊叹的地方。
I mean, I've traveled quite extensively around the Roman Empire and I think it's actually on its own, it's quite an astounding place.
工艺的水平，以及这个地方的组织结构。
The level of craftsmanship, the sort of the organization of the place.
我认为它实际上是个非常特别的地方，但确实是。
I think it's it was actually quite a special place, but it was yeah.
它的主要枢纽是一个港口城镇。
The main hub of it was was a port town.
而且它很
And it's
很古老，不是吗？
old, isn't it?
我的意思是，这是一个古老的地方。
I mean, it's an old place.
它早在罗马人和希腊人之前就已存在。
It's kind of long precedes the Romans, precedes the Greeks.
你有这些被称为奥斯坎人的人，他们曾在此定居。
You've got these people called Oscans who were who were settling there.
然后，实际上，索菲，你和我都清楚，苏拉——那位可怕的共和派将军，第一个率军进军罗马的人——他拥有这些军队的原因是意大利人反抗罗马统治而起义，而正是苏拉围攻并攻占了庞贝。
Then well, actually, Sophie, you and I know this because Sulla, the the terrifying Republican general who is the first to march on Rome, The reason he has these armies is because the Italians have kind of risen in revolt against Roman rule, and it's Sulla who essentially besieges and storms Pompeii.
城墙上的弹坑，就是他投石机留下的，至今仍清晰可见。
And the crater marks on the walls left by his catapults can still be seen.
上次你带我去庞贝时，你给我指过那些痕迹，那真是令人震撼的景象。
The last time you took me to Pompeii, you pointed them out to me, so that was an absolute There
有一台投石机至今仍然保存着。
is one catapult that still exists.
他们找到了它，我的意思是，它看起来真的像一颗炸弹。
They found it just, I mean, it does look like a bomb really.
是啊，那东西要是发射出去，肯定会造成巨大破坏。
Yeah, that was going to do some damage.
真是令人惊叹的景象。
Kind of amazing amazing sight.
然后，苏拉的军队驻扎在那里，它就变成了一个殖民地。
And and then and then Sala his his troops get planted there and it becomes a colony.
所以，从某种意义上说，你知道，在毁灭发生前不到两个世纪的时间里，它已经被罗马人殖民了。
So in a sense, you know, within kind of, you know, less than two centuries by the time of the destruction, it's it's a it's been colonized by the Romans.
它曾被罗马人攻陷过。
It's been stormed by the Romans.
它已经被罗马人殖民了。
It's been colonized by the Romans.
因此，它是一个混合的地方。
And so it is a kind of hybrid place.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
这让我感到恼火——我其中一个小小的执念就是，人们说它是一个被冻结在时间中的时间胶囊。
And this is what aggravates my little you know, one of my mini hills that I'll go and dial is that people say it's a time capsule frozen in time.
我的意思是，刚经历了一次火山喷发，你不能真的说它是‘冻结’的，但这种‘时间胶囊’的说法——如果它确实是在某个特定时刻完整保存了某些东西——这让我很困扰，因为它有着可追溯到公元前六世纪的历史。
I mean, well, you can't really say frozen when it's just undergone an eruption, still, but this kind of time capsule thing is if, you know, it's preserving something absolutely, you know, at a specific time, it's really kind of annoys me because it's, it has got this history that goes back to the sort of sixth century BC.
而整个城市都是这一切的层层叠加。
And the whole city is a kind of palimpsest of all of this.
就像大多数城市一样，它们有一些古老的区域，也有一些新的区域。
It's as most cities are, they're sort of, there's older bits, there's newer bits.
对我来说，这根本不符合那种时间胶囊般的瞬间。
And it doesn't really fit in that sort of time capsule moment for me at all.
所以，这并不是一个特定的、凝固的罗马时刻。
So it's not a particular frozen moment of kind of Romanness.
绝对不是，对我来说不是。
Absolutely not, no, not to me.
那里有多少人会认为自己是罗马人呢？我的意思是，当时在那里的每个人，有多少人会自认为是罗马人？
How many of the people there would have been, I mean, how many of the people would everybody there have considered themselves Romans?
差不多吧，是的。
More or less, yeah.
所以，它并不是一个所谓的熔炉。
So it wasn't a sort of a melting pot as it were.
我的意思是，它确实是，但成为罗马公民，无论你来自叙利亚还是其他地方，你就是罗马公民。
Well, I mean, it is, but then, to be a Roman citizen, you were a Roman citizen, whether you came from Syria or wherever.
所以从这个意义上说，是的。
So in that sense, yes.
我的意思是，当然还有很多不被视为公民的奴隶之类的人。
I mean, then there's obviously, there's a lot of slaves who were not considered citizens and stuff.
所以这仍然是一个大熔炉，但是
So it is still a melting pot, but
那些公民，印度女神，不是吗？她通常被称为拉克希米，那尊印度女神的雕像在那不勒斯考古博物馆。
the citizens the Indian goddess, isn't there, who is conventionally called Lakshmi, the statue of the Indian goddess in the Naples Archeological Museum.
我不认为她是拉克希米。
I don't think it is Laxmi.
想一下——不，不是的，我从来没被纠正过
Think- No, it's not, it's I've the other never been told off
传统上她就是这么被称呼的。
traditionally that's what she's called.
是另一个，我确实记得，但名字想不起来了。
It's the other one that I, yes, the name escapes.
但我的意思是，
But I mean,
这不也是它的魅力所在吗？
is also the fascination of it, isn't it?
你能感受到那些生活在那里、却通常不会出现在宏大历史记载中的人们。
That you get the sense of peoples who lived there, who we don't who don't normally show up in the kind of historical records for the grand sweep.
因此，我们或许能够讲述那些 otherwise 可能被忽视的阶层人们的故事。
And so it is kind of possible to tell the stories of the kinds of class of people who otherwise we might not be able to.
我的意思是，这正是你特别感兴趣的地方，对吧？
Mean, that's something that you're particularly interested in, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
对我来说，而且我觉得，最近这种趋势越来越流行，就是逐渐远离皇帝和主要的公共建筑。
For me, and I think, you know, it's become really popular more recently, is to edge away from the emperors and and the main civic buildings.
你知道，我们了解神庙、巴西利卡以及所有那些东西。
You know, we know about temples, we know about basilica and all of that stuff.
但庞贝给了你一个绝佳的机会，让你看到日常生活——比如酒吧的老板、洗衣店的经营者，甚至那些隐形的奴隶也仿佛活了过来，因为你能够想象他们在工作时的样子。
But Pompeii gives you, you know, amazing, amazing opportunity to see everyday life and the person who owns a bar, the person who runs a launderette, And then the sort of the invisible slaves kind of come to life as well because you can actually start imagining them, you know, at work.
他们留下的痕迹很少，但你突然就能明白，这座城市要正常运转，背后必须有一个由奴隶构成的‘引擎室’。
They don't leave many traces behind, but you can suddenly see this city is only gonna function with, you know, an engine room type thing of slaves behind it.
我认为，庞贝带给我的正是这种巨大的光照亮了那些通常不会出现在历史书中的社会群体。
And I think that's what Pompeii gives me is suddenly this sort of huge light is cast on those members of society that don't normally kind of get into the history books.
索菲，我问你一个问题。
Sophie, let me ask you this question.
作为一名现代历史学家，当我去这些遗址时，总会有一点失望，因为眼前只是一堆石头。
So as a modern historian, when I go to a lot of these sites, there's always this slight element of being underwhelmed because there's a pile of stones.
当我带着我儿子去时，我说：‘这里有个最棒的……’
So when I drag my son and I say, there's this most amazing You're
就是那个在旅行者网站上的人。
that guy on trip adviser.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
这是最令人惊叹的罗马遗址。
It's this most amazing Roman site.
他经常说，那到底是一堵墙，还只是一排石头？
He often says, is there actually a wall, or is it really just a line of stones?
非常有趣。
And Very interesting.
某种程度上，这确实有道理：你去这些遗址，希望进入罗马世界，但看到的只是些建筑。
Sort of there's some sort of degree of truth in that is that you go to these sites and you're hoping to get into the Roman world, and and it is just buildings.
但庞贝显然不同，因为每个人从庞贝最深刻的印象，就是那些在火山爆发中逃亡的人的石膏铸像。
But Pompeii is obviously different because the one thing that everybody gets from Pompeii are the the plaster casts of the people fleeing the explosion.
所以，你实际上看到了这些人。
So you see the effectively, you see the people.
但你看到的是他们被定格，或者说，凝固在痛苦与死亡瞬间的样子。
But you see them frozen or rather kind of, as I guess, baked in the moment of agony, in the moment of their death.
那么，这种做法在什么时候会越过一条界限呢？
And at what point does that sort of cross a bit of a line?
我的意思是，你不会在任何其他近期的自然灾害中这样做。
I mean, you wouldn't do that in any other in any sort of recent natural disaster.
你不会说：‘哦，我们去看看那些遇难者的尸体吧。’
You wouldn't say, oh, let's go and look at all the corpses of the people who died.
那么，你对此有什么感受呢？
So how do you how do you kind of feel about that?
你觉得这样可以吗？我的意思是，显然游客们很喜欢，但你觉得这样合适吗？
Do you think it's I mean, obviously, you know, the visitors love it, but do you feel it's okay?
我对这个问题有点犹豫不决。
I'm I sort of sit on a bit of a fence on that.
从道德上讲，我觉得这有点像窥探，让我有点不舒服，但与此同时，它确实让我们和庞贝城获得了对当时发生之事的真实而强烈的感受——你知道，这座城市曾经有人居住，人们确实遭受了苦难。
I ethically, feel it is a bit sort of voyeuristic and it makes me a little bit uncomfortable, but at the same time, it it has given us and it's given Pompey that that real sort of visceral sense of of what happened and it you know, the city the city was populated and they did suffer.
我认为，如果没有这些石膏铸像，而只是看到一些骨头，就不会有同样的震撼力。
And I think without them being cast and just seeing, you know, some bones, I don't think it has that same power.
而且作为考古学家和游客，我们总觉得自己需要与某些东西建立联系或产生共鸣。
And and then as archaeologists and tourists, we always feel we need that connection or to relate to something.
是的。
Yeah.
让人更有人情味。
Humanize it.
而且而且
And and
我认为这至少为我提供了这样的东西。
I think that's what they provide for me anyway.
那里有狗。
There are dogs
我知道，还有猪。
I know, there's pigs.
挺神奇的。
Kind of amazing.
没错。
Exactly.
不。
No.
所以，我很好奇一件事，这些并不是尸体，对吧？
So, one thing I wonder about that, the way that the the way that these they're not bodies, are they?
我的意思是，这些塑料铸模，那些被焚毁的人留下的空隙。
Mean, the the plastic casts, kind of the gaps that that these flick the the these incinerated people had left.
人们似乎非常倾向于给它们强加叙事和故事。
There seems to be a huge temptation to impose narratives and stories onto them.
所以这可能还挺有趣的。
So it can be kind of quite fun.
去年是不是有个著名的例子？
There was this kind of famous was it last year?
有一张照片，显示一具尸体被一块落下的石头压着，大家都觉得很好笑。
There was a picture of a body with a rock that had fallen on it that everyone found very funny.
但你也会听到一些关于女性去看角斗士之类的传闻。
But you also get stories about women going to see gladiators and all this kind of stuff.
这其实是一种浪漫的投射，不是吗？
Now that is a kind of romantic projection, isn't it?
这些故事中的大多数都是如此。
Most of these.
我的意思是，当你仔细审视这些故事的证据时，几乎总是会有点站不住脚。
Mean, the the evidence for these stories, when you look at them closely, almost always tends to kind of slightly fall to pieces.
是的。
Yes.
嗯，这其实反映了我们总是试图与它们建立联系，把它们变成我们能理解的东西，赋予它们故事，以便让我们产生情感上的共鸣。
Well, that's that kind of goes back to us always trying to relate and to make them something that we understand and we'll give them a story so that we feel emotionally attached.
比如那位孕妇的石膏模型，或者只是她的衣服被掀了起来，看起来像是隆起，而我们其实并不确定。
And yes, there's the cast of the pregnant woman, or is it just a bit of her clothing that's ridden up and has given her a bulge and, you know, we're not sure.
所以，是的，我认为我们试图为这些故事赋予意义，这是一种非常自然的想法。
So yes, I think it's a really natural sort of idea for us to try and make these stories.
然后，正如你所说，后来他们扫描了塑像，发现实际上那个女人是个男人，或者反过来也是如此。
And then, as you say, later on, you know, they scan the cast and they find out that actually that woman was a man or the other way around.
我记得有一个塑像叫《摩尔人》，结果发现是个14岁左右的本地少年。
I think there was one that was supposed to be was it was called The Moor and it turned out to be a local lad of 14 or something.
他只是身材稍微魁梧一点而已。
He just happened to be a bit bigger framed.
所以是的，这些故事确实被揭穿了，但与此同时，这种做法又如此自然。
So yes, they did get unraveled, but at the same time, it's it's so natural.
当我每天在现场工作时，我会为我的石膏制品编一些小故事，因为这有助于让过程更顺畅。
And when I do it every day on-site, you know, I would would make up little stories about my balm and because it kind of helps kind of tick it along.
但同样，也不必扫兴。
But equally not to be a party pooper.
你可以从壁画和铭文中推断出一些精彩的故事，也许不是从尸体本身，而是从这些地方。举几个你最喜欢的例子吧。
There are amazing stories that you can extrapolate, perhaps not from the bodies, but from the graffiti and from the So just give a couple of your favorite examples of that.
我最喜欢的一个是名叫盖乌斯·阿利乌斯·尼吉迪乌斯·梅斯的这个人。
I think one of my favorites is this man called Gaius Allius Nigidius Maes.
我喜欢他，因为他在我眼中体现了我们是如何了解庞贝这些人的。
And I like him because he kind of embodies to me how we find out about these people in Pompeii.
我们并不会走进他们的房子，翻找他们的抽屉，找到一堆文件来确切地告诉我们他那天在做什么之类的。
We we we kind of we don't go into their houses and rummage through their sort of desk drawers and find a whole load of documents that tell us exactly what he was doing on this day or whatever.
你知道，在庞贝我们并没有这些东西。
You know, we don't have that in Pompeii.
我认为人们以为事情就是这样：你找到某人的房子，就能自动知道他的一切。
And I think people think that that's how it works is, you know, you find the house of someone and you automatically know what they're all up to.
这位男子，他们的房子是在1810年左右发现的，我想。
And this guy who they discovered his house in 1810, I think.
所以这在发掘初期就发生了。
So very early on in the beginning of the excavations.
他们发现他的名字被画在墙上，写着：这是我的财产。
And they found his name painted on the wall and said, this is my property.
我想把它公布出来。
I want to let it out.
所以去找我的奴隶普里穆斯，谈谈租这房子的事。
So see my slave primus about, you know, renting it.
这就是我们对他全部的了解。
And that's all we knew about him.
后来发现，收养他的那家人非常富有，因为他们家在城外有墓葬。
Then it kind of transpired that his family who had adopted him was very rich because they've got tombs outside the town.
大约一百年后，在庞贝城的另一侧，发掘工作仍在继续，人们在墙上发现了几则彩绘告示，告诉我们纳吉迪乌斯·马斯负责组织竞技场的赛事。
And then about a hundred years later, on the other side of Pompeii excavation is continuing and they find some painted notices on the wall which tell us that Nagidius Maas is in charge of organizing the amphitheater games.
于是我们突然得到了一个一百年后的闪回，想到：哦，对了，我记得他，就是那个从那边出来的人。
So we suddenly get, you know, a flashback a hundred years later to sort of, you know, this guy, yes, I remember him from over there.
然后我们得知，他可能在公元59年尼禄禁止角斗士比赛期间组织过赛事，因为他开始举办比赛，但没有角斗士，因为当时因暴乱被禁，尼禄很生气。
And then we find out that he was organizing games probably during the ban when Nero banned the games from '59 AD fifty nine because he starts putting on games, but they don't have gladiators in them because they're banned because there there was a riot and Nero got cross.
然后时间跳到大约2018年。
And then spool forward to, I think it was about 2018.
又过了一百年，人们在城市南部发现了一座坟墓，里面有一段又长又大的铭文。
So another hundred years passes and they find a tomb in the south of the city and they find a huge long inscription.
每个人都非常兴奋，但上面却没有名字。
Everyone gets very excited except there's no name on it.
所以这仍然像是个空白。
So it's still kind of a blank.
但在铭文中，他们记录了这场盛大的宴会，他为近七千人举办了宴会。
But in the inscription, they've got details of this huge banquet that's put on for over well, it's nearly 7,000 people he puts a banquet on for.
但铭文还提到，他在尼禄禁止角斗士比赛期间担任赛事组织者。
But it also says he was the organizer of the games during the ban of Nero.
所以这很可能是他的坟墓。
So it's probably his tomb.
整个铭文有点像‘功业录’那种类型。
And this whole inscription is is is a bit sort of like the reis gestalt type thing.
它记录了我生前做了什么、取得了哪些成就，以及我有多么伟大。
It's sort of what I did when I was alive and what I accomplished and how great they are.
于是我们突然得到了这个人的生平传记，但拼凑出这一切花了两百年，从城中三个不同的地方发现的线索，我只是觉得，他的生活，他在城中非常重要。
So then we've suddenly got a biography of this man but this has taken two hundred years to piece together from three different places in town and I just think, you know, his life is he was very important in in the town.
他担任的是你能获得的最高职位。
He had the highest office, the ranking office that you could have.
但没错，这个过程真的很慢，我觉得他完美地体现了这一点，我就是喜欢这种拼凑碎片般的考古发现。
But, yeah, that's the the process is really slow and I think that he embodies it for me and I just kind of love that fragmentary sticking jigsaw pieces together.
别怪我。
So don't on me.
他有点像巴里·赫恩。
He's kind of Barry Hearn.
是的。
Yes.
或者简直就是唐纳德·特朗普。
Or indeed Donald Trump.
那是个
That's a
不错的想法。
nice thought.
他免费玩游戏。
He games on free.
他人很好。
He was nice.
他是个好人。
He was a nice guy.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这只不过是
I mean, it's just
你那儿从来就没有免费的午餐。
you there's never a free lunch.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
不。
No.
这中间一定有交换条件，对吧？
There's a there's a there's a quid pro quo, isn't there?
索菲，既然你已经揭穿了我，就是那个在TripAdvisor上抱怨一堆石头的男人。
Sophie, since you've already outed me as the man on TripAdvisor who complains about a pile of stones.
一堆石头。
Pile of stones.
干脆彻底点吧。
Might as well go all in.
好吧。
Okay.
人们从庞贝古城带走的另一样人人都知道的东西是情色艺术。
The other thing that people take away from Pompeii that everybody knows about is the erotic art.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，很多游客就是来看这个的。
I mean, that's what a lot of tourists come to see.
他们来看，期待看到一些描绘人们放荡行为的马赛克画。
They come to see they expect to see mosaics of sort of people, you know, behaving in a debauched way.
是的。
Yes.
现在我的问题有两个方面。
Now my question is sort of twofold.
我们是不是夸大了这一点，还是说这本来就是常态？
Is that have we exaggerated that or was that kind of the norm?
如果这确实是常态，人们把这类东西放在餐厅里，那是否说明罗马人和我们完全不同，他们的道德标准完全不一样？
And if it was the norm and people had those that stuff in their kind of dining room, does that tell us that the Romans were completely unlike us and their sort of moral standards and everything were utterly different?
还是说我夸大了、过度渲染了这一点？
Or am I exaggerating and overplaying that?
不，我觉得你说得非常准确。
No, I think you're spot on.
我认为这非常普遍。
I think it is really prevalent.
当他们在18世纪中期首次开始发掘时，发掘者们震惊地发现，阴茎形象在庞贝城的各个阶层中无处不在。
And when they first started excavating in the mid eighteenth century, the excavators were horrified to find that there were phalluses, kind of, sort of transcended every class in Pompeii.
这不仅仅是精英阶层的专属，也不仅仅是那些放荡的酒吧老板之类的人才有的东西。
It wasn't just, you know, the elite or it wasn't just the, you know, the naughty little sort of bar owners and things like that.
它渗透到了社会的方方面面。
It it pervaded all all sort of society.
他们对此感到极度震惊，于是将所有相关物品移走，藏在了波蒂奇宫的博物馆里，因为他们根本不想让人知道罗马人竟然如此与众不同——我的意思是，我说的‘我们’，那已经是五十年前的事了。
And they they were absolutely horrified, and they took all of the material away and hid it in a museum in in the palace at Portoche because they just didn't want people to know that, you know, the Romans were so unlike I mean, I say us, I mean, is already fifty years ago.
这种隐藏这些物品的做法一直持续着。
And that carried on, you know, hiding this stuff.
事实上，这些物品后来成为了那不勒斯的‘秘密博物馆’，直到2000年才对公众开放。
And in fact, which then became the secret museum in Naples, which only opened to the public in 2000.
那时才被认为可以公开展示了。
That's when it was kind of deemed okay.
所以，我的意思是，我们花了相当长的时间才真正理解这些色情内容。
So, I mean, it's taken us quite a long time to get to grips with with the pornography.
正如其名。
As
正如其名。
it were.
正如其名。
As it were.
是的。
Yes.
并非有意双关。
No pun intended.
事实上，我去过大英图书馆。
In fact, went to the British Library.
我本不该点名道姓的，但我去大英图书馆查阅了一本关于庞贝 erotic 艺术的书，那本书被标记为特殊保管品。
I should probably shouldn't name and shame them, but I went to the British Library to to to look at one of the erotic art books of Pompeii And it was under sort of special handling label or something.
我必须去一个不允许拍照的桌子前。
And I had to go and I had to go to a desk where I wasn't allowed to take photographs.
上面贴着大大的标签，写着禁止拍照。
It had, you know, a big sort of stickers on it saying don't take photos.
那其实就是一本咖啡桌书籍，收录了我们在网上经常见到的壁画。
And it was literally just a coffee table book of the frescoes that we see on the internet all the time.
但我觉得这真的很荒谬，即使到了2019年，它仍然被列为禁物，但实际上它到处都是。
But I just thought this is quite hilarious that still in 2019 whenever it was, it was still under this kind of ban, but no, it was it was everywhere.
我想他们确实找到了。
And I think they did did find it.
所以给我讲讲大概情况。
So give me some sense.
所以基本上，如果你在庞贝或当时任何一座罗马城镇长大，你从小到大都一直被这些东西包围着，对吧？这不是什么‘小约翰尼和玛乔丽姨婆因为年龄不合适就不能看’的东西。
So basically, if you grew up in Pompeii or indeed any Roman town in that time, you were surrounded by this stuff all the time, right, from childhood to, you know, it wasn't something that little Johnny and great aunt Marjorie don't get to see because they're the wrong age and it's not appropriate.
它一直都是合适的。
It's it's always appropriate.
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那就是那种……
Was that the kind of
我的意思是，当时有一些细微的界限。
mean, I think there were slight boundaries.
我的意思是，这取决于上下文，很多粗俗的内容都有其特定背景。
I mean, it depend there's lots of context for for sort of rude bits and pieces.
当然，有妓院，孩子们 probably 不会去那里。
Obviously, you've got the brothel, which, know, kids probably wouldn't be going to.
但在私人住宅里，那些情色图画主要位于更私密的区域，尽管也有一些出现在人人都能进入的中庭。
But inside private houses, you know, they're mainly the erotic pictures are mainly in the more private areas, although there's some are in the sort of the atrium, which is where everyone can go.
但你还得考虑那些带有男性生殖器图案的护身符，它们代表好运，这种东西人人都能看到，挂在街角、门楣上，甚至挂在风铃和灯上。
But then you've got things like the plaques with pedices on for sort of good luck, so that has a completely different sort of idea about it and that was seen by everybody, were on street corners, they're above your door, they were on wind chimes, lamps.
我的意思是，你小时候也会看到男性生殖器的符号。
I mean, yeah, you would see would see a phallic symbol even as a child.
当然。
Absolutely.
我的意思是，正因为如此，我觉得庞贝城令人压抑，因为到处都是阴茎符号，很容易让人想进去一探究竟。
I mean, I find Pompeii quite oppressive for that reason because it's tempting to fight going into tea, phalluses everywhere.
是的。
Yes.
但我的意思是，实际上，人们在房屋和妓院里确实遭受过性虐待。
But, I mean, actually, would have been sexually abused in in houses and in brothels.
我的意思是，这些行为在当时是完全合法的。
Mean, they were you know, they were perfectly legitimate.
当你去庞贝城，看到奴隶被迫居住的空间时，你会意识到他们对任何人来说都是可以随意侵犯的对象——没错。
And what I feel when you go to Pompeii and you look at the spaces in which the slaves were obliged to live, and you know that they are kind of free game for whoever- Yeah.
任何拥有他们的人，都可以随意对待。
Whoever is free, whoever owns them.
你会感受到，被拥有、遭受持续性虐待是多么可怕，而这种虐待显然构成了庞贝城性经济的基础。
And you feel how horrendous it must have been to be owned, to be kind of subject to the kind of sustained sexual abuse that clearly is providing the sexual economy of Pompeii with its its foundations.
因此，我认为参观庞贝城时的一个矛盾在于，它被宣传为一个能让你看到罗马人真实生活的地方，暗示着：‘看啊。'
And so I I think that one of the one of the tensions in going to Pompeii is that it is marketed as something where you can see how the Romans really lived, and the implication is, oh, look.
他们就跟我们一样。
They were just like us.
但事实上，我认为如果你深入观察，会发现他们根本不像我们。
But, actually, I think if you look more deeply, you find they weren't like us at all.
简直令人恐惧地不同。
Was kind of terrifyingly different.
说到这里，我想我们或许该休息一下，然后
On on which note, I think perhaps we should go for a break and
回来后，我想让你介绍一下你的书，汤姆。
when we come back I thought gonna you plug your book there, Tom.
这很明显。
That was the obvious.
我能感受到那股未说出口的失望正朝我袭来。
I to, I could sense the disappointment unspoken coming at me down the, down the line.
所以，不，我不会推荐我的书，尽管它在一些不错的书店里有售。
So, so no, I'm not going to plug my book, which is available for more good book shops.
我们休息一下吧。
Let's go for a break.
回来后，也许我可以顺便提一下我的书。
When we come back, maybe I can plug it then.
欢迎回到我的节目《历史的其余部分》，我是嘉宾汤姆·霍兰德。
Welcome back to my show, The Rest is History, with my guest Tom Holland.
抱歉，我一想到这个就忍不住笑出来。
Sorry, I couldn't do that without laughing.
我的嘉宾是汤姆·霍兰德和索菲·海博士。
My guests, Tom Holland and Doctor.
索菲·海，她今天来谈谈庞贝。
Sophie Hay, who's here to talk about Pompe.
我们有很多问题，汤姆，我们确实有很多。
We have a ton of questions, Tom, from- We do.
来自推特上的人们。
People on Twitter.
我先从马克·伍德豪斯开始。
I'm gonna kick off with Mark Woodhouse.
他说他只想直奔主题。
He says he he just wants to cut to the chase, basically.
他说他想知道最近发掘中最重要的发现是什么，你认为会有什么发现？
He says he wants to know what is the most significant find from the recent excavations, and what do you reckon is there?
还剩下什么？
What is left?
索菲，还有什么等着被挖掘出来？
What's waiting to be dug up, Sophie?
所以，嗯，不，
So yeah, no,
新的发掘对我来说简直令人震惊，虽然我对庞贝出土的各类文物已经很熟悉了，但看着这些东西从地下逐渐显现出来，我也和所有人一样目瞪口呆。
the new excavations have been absolutely, I mean, mind boggling to me and I'm quite used to all of, you know, the things that found in Pompeii, but I've been as googly eyed as everybody else watching these things kind of appear out the ground.
而且应该有个说明，解释一下为什么进行这些发掘，因为人们可能误以为他们正在不顾现有文物的保护而一味挖掘。
And there should be some kind of caveat saying that why these excavations took place because I think people are just believing that they're going ahead digging without conserving what they've got.
事实上，这一切都是一个更大项目的一部分，该项目获得了欧盟资金，旨在稳定发掘区域的侧壁。
And in fact, this is all part of a bigger project that was given EU funding to basically make the sides of the excavation stable.
所以这是一项保护工程，但当他们逐步后退发掘侧壁时，实际上也在挖掘房屋。
So it's a conservation project, but it's got an element as they kind of step back the side of the excavation there, they are actually digging in houses.
但没错，确实令人惊叹。
But yeah, no, absolutely stunning.
而且我认为，最近发现的酒吧可能是最重要的发现之一，因为它超越了我们以往的认知。
And I do actually think that the most recent find of the bar is probably one of the most important because it takes us beyond what we knew before.
而其他许多物品，虽然也非常惊人。
Whereas a lot of the other things, although they're stunning.
那么，为什么是这样呢，索菲？
And why does it do that Sophie?
因为发现的食物中含有的物质
Because of the material found in the food that was found
实际上，是的，没错。
actually Yeah, in the no, absolutely.
这是第一次，他们说得对，我们可以彻底地挖掘某物，并运用各种技术手段。
For the first time and they're quite right in saying that we can dig something absolutely properly and they can throw technology at it.
他们请来了动物考古学家和植物考古学家，来研究罐子内部的残留物。
They've got the zoo archeologists, they've got archeobotanists looking at the remains inside the pot.
因此，他们在罐子里发现了鸭骨，这实际上是我们在庞贝的一家酒吧里首次在罐子中发现骨头。
So the fact that they found duck bone, a duck bone inside the pot, it's actually the first time that we've got a bone in a pot in a bar in Pompeii.
在这种嵌入酒吧墙体中的下沉式陶制容器里，曾经发现过食物残留。
Food has been found in these kind of sunken sort of sunken ceramic vessels that are that are kind of encased within the bar.
而我们之前所知的所有案例或证据，都只涉及干燥的食物。
And all the previous ones that we know of or any evidence we've had is always dried food.
因此，我们一直以为他们提供的是干燥食物，但如今我们完全改变了看法，突然意识到他们实际上是在制作热食，并将食物储存在这些罐子里。
So we've always had this thing that the, you know, they were serving dried food and suddenly we get shifted completely off and we suddenly think, oh, actually they were producing hot food and it was being stored in these pots.
我想，其中有一道是猪肉和鱼的菜肴。
And we have, I think there was a pork and fish dish.
所以这很可能是第一道出现在单个罐子里的‘海鲜与肉类’拼盘。
So probably the first surf and turf dish that there was in one pot.
真恶心。
Disgusting.
对吧？
Isn't it?
嗯，下一个罐子更糟。
Well, the other the next pot is even worse.
你宁愿吃猪肉和鱼，也不要吃蜗牛、鱼和羊肉汤之类的东西。
You'd rather you can get pork and fish rather than snails, fish, and sheep soup or something.
鱼和什么？
Fish and what?
羊肉。
Sheep.
羊肉。
Sheep.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
另一种鱼肠酱。
Another fish gut sauce.
没错。
Exactly.
是啊。
Yeah.
好吧，那也没关系。
Well, that's all right.
实际上，这更像酱油。
Actually, that's more like soy sauce.
所以我们可以让鱼露流掉，但蜗牛汤，
So we can, we can kind of let the garum slide off, but the snail soup,
并没有
there's not
很多
much
为了
for
我。
me.
我的意思是，也要强调的是，这不仅仅是庞贝，还有赫库兰尼姆，是的。
I mean, important to emphasize as well that it's not just Pompeii because there's also Herculaneum, which is Yes.
现代城镇就建在它的上面。
The modern town of is is built right on top of it.
我想我记得没错，当地黑手党头目的房子正好建在它的一个关键区域上
And I I think I'm right in remembering that the house of the local mafia boss is over a crucial section of it
人们想要挖掘的地方。
that people want to dig up.
所以这不可能发生。
So that's not gonna happen.
然后，当然还有著名的纸莎草别墅，对吧？
And then, of course, there's the famous Villa Of Papyri, isn't there?
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
那令人遐想的可能性是
The tantalizing possibility of
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我在这里工作时，他们拆掉了一整排房屋，有一个小岛状区域突出来，里面住着被软禁的黑手党头目，正看着我们工作。
When I worked there, they had demolished a whole series of houses and there was this sort of little island sticking up and in it was the mafia boss under house arrest watching us doing our work.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，是的，罗马的赞助模式一直延续到了二十一世纪。
So yeah, so the Roman patterns of patronage last into the twenty first century.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
好吧，这里有个大问题。
Well, here here's here's the here's the big question.
这里有个大问题。
Here's the big question.
这是尼尔·佩奇的问题。
It's from Neil Page.
我们是否更接近于就维苏威火山爆发的确切日期达成共识了？
Are we any closer in getting consensus on a confirmed date for when Vesuvius erupted.
好的。
Okay.
还有，多米尼克，作为一名现代英国史学家，我肯定这体现了你对古代历史的所有挫败感，没错。
And, Dominic, as a as a historian of of modern Britain, I'm sure this embodies all your frustrations with ancient history Yeah.
我们甚至不知道它是什么时候发生的。
That we don't even know Don't even know when it happened.
拜托。
Come on.
是
Are
能给我们简要说明一下，那些不同的观点是什么吗？
able to give us the kind of the rival, as
比如说，
it were,
简而言之，是的，这些立场分别是怎样的。
in a nutshell, yes, what the positions are.
好的。
Okay.
所以，是的，小普林尼的著作，我们只有中世纪的抄本。
So yes, Pliny the younger writing his, we've got, we've only got medieval copies of his writing.
他写了这些信，并在信中注明了火山爆发的日期。
So he wrote these letters and he put in the date of the eruption that it happened.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
不过，我不怪普林尼，我要怪的是最晚的抄写员。
Except the scribes, so I don't blame Pliny, I blame the latest scribes.
他们根本没法辨认清楚。
They couldn't quite read it.
那东西状态有点糟糕，你知道的，破破烂烂的。
It was in a bit of, you know, tattery state or something.
于是他们干脆自己编造了不同的日期，加了进去。
And so they just basically all made up different dates and inserted them.
所以我们现在有8月24日这个说法，但也有人说是11月30日，或者10月某日，还有12月的，我想是这样。
So we have the August 24, but we also have November 30 or something and something in October and one in December, I think.
但那份保存最完好的信件抄本，是写着8月24日的那一份。
So but the one that the sort of the copy of the letter that's the best preserved is the one that's got the August 24.
因此，这个日期基本上已成为定论，也是被广泛接受的日期。
So that has basically become canon, and that's the one that's bounded around.
但当你查看考古证据时，却发现它并不完全符合8月24日这个时间。
Then you kind of look at the archaeology and it kind of doesn't quite fit for the August 24.
因此，反对8月说的主要考古证据是石榴。
So the main the main archaeological evidence against August is pomegranates.
我坚定地站在石榴这一边。
And I'm definitely team pomegranate.
石榴已经成熟，说明事件必须发生在秋季晚些时候。
The fact you've got ripened pomegranates means it has to have been later in autumn.
它们要到九月才会成熟并被采摘食用。
So they don't ripen and get eaten until September.
所以石榴是一个关键证据。
So pomegranates are one.
还有关于葡萄的一些很好的证据，因为显然葡萄是在十月左右收获的。
And then there's some really nice stuff actually from grapes, because obviously you harvest grapes sort of October time.
当人们挖掘庞贝城的一个酿酒压榨室时，发现地板上还残留着酿酒残渣的淤泥。
And in when one of the wine pressing rooms in Pompeii was being dug, they found that kind of sludge still on the floor from all the debris from wine pressing.
这些残渣在八月时是不会存在的。
And that wouldn't have been there in August.
我的意思是，人们希望他们已经清理干净了。
I mean, one would hope they had cleaned it up.
是的。
Yeah.
那么，你有没有感觉到，共识现在有所转变了吗？
So, do you have a sense of, is there a, has the consensus swung now?
我的意思是，这种事情需要时间，对吧？
I mean, these things take time, don't they?
这就像调动一艘油轮一样。
It's like moving an oil tanker.
你认为主流观点认为火山爆发发生在秋天吗？
Do you think that, is the majority opinion that it was in the autumn?
我想我们都希望说是这样，但人们还是会提到8月24日。
I think I think we'd all like to, yes, say that that is the case, but people will still refer to the to the August 24.
然后
And then
实际上，在新发掘的区域里，我们发现了那个涂鸦。
we had that graffito in in the new excavations, in fact.
所以这是另一件非常重要的事。
So that's another really important thing.
那上面写的是什么？
So what's that what's that say?
它是用木炭写的，令人烦恼的是，上面写着10月17日的日期。
It's written in charcoal and annoyingly, it has a date of the October 17.
所以大家都非常兴奋，说：如果八月时已经烟尘漫天，怎么可能写下10月17日呢？
So everyone got super excited saying, well, you can't write October 17 if it's, you know, if it was all up in smoke in August.
但当然，这里没有日期，也没有年份。
But of course there's no date, there's no year date.
所以
So
我们也会写，下个月再见，于
we also be writing, I'll see you next month on
确实，确实，可能是这样。
Indeed, indeed, it could have been.
所以，我的意思是，我们有这些令人着迷的零星线索。
So there's, I mean, we have all these little tantalizing glimpses.
还出土了一枚硬币，大家都说这枚硬币只能是在8月24日之后铸造的。
There was a coin as well that came up, which everyone said this could only have been minted after the August 24.
而它出土的环境非常安全，没有任何被篡改的迹象。
And it was found in a context that was completely safe that there was no evidence of tampering.
但后来这枚硬币被送到大英博物馆，专家们仔细检查后说，这种授予提图斯的尊称字样实际上磨损得很严重，几乎无法辨认。
And yet then it went to the British Museum, this coin got looked at and they said, well, bit that kind of gives you that sort of honorific title for Titus is actually really worn and you can't quite read
它。
it.
你
You
看，这就是为什么你想要坚持卡尔森的原因。
see, this is why, is why you want to stick with Carlson.
你得不到这种
You don't get this kind of
胡言乱语。
nonsense.
托尼·本的日记。
Tony Ben's diaries.
我们甚至不知道大地震的具体日期。
We don't even know the date of the big earthquake either.
发生过一次大地震，关于这一点也存在争议。
There's a huge earthquake and there's debate over that as well.
我们有两个。
We have two.
那种精彩的定格画面，展示了所有建筑倾斜和倒塌的场景
That brilliant kind of freeze showing all the buildings tilting and toppling and things
没错。
like Exactly.
但我们有62年、60年、3年，谁知道呢？
But we have '62, 60 '3, who knows?
多米尼克，我们还有其他问题吗？
Dominic, do we have another question?
是的，有。
Yeah, we do.
让我问一个来自内森的问题。
Let me ask a question from Nathan.
内森确实有个非常好的问题。
Nathan's got a very good question actually.
他问的是庞贝的重新发现，以及人们在此之前对它的了解。
He's asking about rediscovery of Pompe and what people knew about it beforehand.
换句话说，庞贝是否已经完全被遗忘了？
So in other words, had Pompe completely been forgotten?
是否有一种地方性的传说，历经数个世纪一直流传，说那里有一片被掩埋的地方，曾发生过一场可怕的灾难？
Was there kind of local law that survived through all the centuries that said there is something there that is covered, there was this terrible tragedy?
你知道，民间传说是否一直存在，还是说当人们开始挖掘时，这完全是一场突如其来的意外？
You know, did sort of folk tales persist or was this a sort of complete bolt from the blue when people started to uncover it?
嗯，1748年挖掘庞贝的波旁王朝会希望你相信这是一次完全意外的发现，看看他们发现了什么。
Well, Bourbons who were digging it in 1748 would want you to believe that it was a complete bolt out of the blue and look at them, look what they discovered.
但实际上，几乎自始至终人们都知道它的存在，我认为是这样。
Whereas actually in reality, it was known about the whole time pretty much, I would
我说。
say.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
所以几代人都知道这里有这些东西
So people have grown up for generations knowing that It this stuff
它出现在一张公元三到四世纪的地图上，被标记在波伊廷格地图上。
appears it appears on a on a map that's third, fourth century AD and it's labeled on the Putinger map.
这是一张意大利地图，上面标有庞贝、赫库兰尼姆、阿波农图斯和斯塔布莱。
So it's a map of Italy and it's labeled as Pompeii there, as is Herculaneum, as is Appontus, as is Stabulae.
到了中世纪，它被称为拉西维塔。
And then becomes sort of in the medieval period, it becomes known as La Civita.
它是一个土丘，仍然被覆盖着，而且关于建筑物是否偶尔露出地面还存在争议，但拉西维塔的意思就是聚居地。
So it's a mound, it's still covered and I mean there's debate as to whether things were popping out or not in terms of buildings, but La Civita means the settlement.
因此人们普遍知道下面还埋着东西，而且由于土壤肥沃，人们不断耕作，大理石碎片就会不断冒出来。
So it's kind of understood that there's something still under there and if you ploughing the ground all the time, because again, fertile soil, things would pop out and bits of marble would come out.
所以他们一直都知道，只是对他们来说并不感兴趣。
And so they did know all along, it's just that it wasn't interesting to them.
有个叫萨尼扎罗的人，对吧？
There's Sanizaro, isn't it?
那位在本世纪初写作的那不勒斯诗人，他的诗作《阿卡迪亚》。
The Neapolitan poet writing at the beginning of the century and his poem Arcadia.
是的，没错。
Yes, exactly.
他提到，你知道，有城市、城镇、别墅之类的。
He kind of says, you know, there are cities and towns and villas and things
有人在1594年说过，因为在1594年，他们开始为开凿运河而挖掘穿过庞贝的隧道。
that going Someone in 1594 said, you know, because in 1594, they started digging a tunnel through Pompeii for a canal.
当他们挖掘土丘时，不断撞到墙壁。
And so they kept hitting, as they were digging through the mound, they kept hitting walls.
他们察觉到了异常，说：我觉得我们撞到什么东西了。
And they sort of flagged it up and went, I think we're hitting something.
负责的人却说：别管它，继续挖。
And the people in charge were like, well, don't worry about it, keep going.
因为这基本上不符合当时宗教裁判所的意识形态。
Cause it basically didn't adhere to the kind of the ideology of the inquisition, which was kind of that period.
任何对过去的提及都被视为政治上不正确。
And any kind of reference to the past was kind of politically incorrect.
索菲，我想就这一点考考你。
Sophie, I wanted to quiz you a bit on that.
你说他们对此并不在意。
You said that they didn't care about it.
他们对此不感兴趣。
They weren't interested.
这真的可能吗？
Can that really be true?
你是说所有这些人真的都不在乎吗？
Are you telling me that all these people just genuinely weren't they didn't care?
嗯，不就是这样吗。
Well, wasn't that.
我不认为当时有那种狂热，对我来说，庞贝始终是一件非常政治化的事情。
I don't think there was that sort of fever for I mean, to me Pompeii is always a very political thing.
它被用作宣传工具。
It's used for propaganda.
它被波旁王朝用来提升自身形象。
It's it's used by the Bourbons to promote themselves.
它也被拿破仑利用。
It's used by Napoleon.
它也被墨索里尼利用。
It's used by Mussolini.
你知道，在意大利统一时期，它被用来界定我们是谁、我们是什么样的人，它始终带有政治色彩。
You know, it's entire it's used during the period of unification of Italy, you know, to say who we are, what we are as people, you know, it's always had a political edge.
所以，如果没有这种政治色彩，它就几乎失去了真正的意义。
So without that political edge, there's kind of no real
甚至连古物研究都不是。
Not even antiquarianism.
那并没有
That didn't
那根本不是一回事。
that wasn't a thing.
我觉得当时收集雕像还为时过早。
I don't think it was too early collecting a statue basically.
是的。
Yeah.
我的理解就是这样的。
I mean, that's my sort of hold on this.
我认为有一些证据表明，在十六和十七世纪，人们已经开始逐渐发掘了？
I think there's some evidence, isn't there, in the sixteenth and seventeenth century that people are kind of starting to ferret?
我的意思是，到了十七世纪末，有人发现了一块刻有“庞贝”字样的铭文，这才意识到那里是
I mean, I think it's kind of towards the end of the seventeenth century that somebody finds an inscription with Pompeii on it so that they then know that it's
但那时他们以为那是‘伟大的庞贝别墅’。
Well, at that point they think it's the Villa Of Pompeii, the Great.
所以他们搞混了，觉得这也没那么了不起。
So they confuse it and they're like, well, it's not as great.
然后他们进行交叉验证，没错。
And then they cross reference and Exactly.
所以确实有一部分人对此感兴趣，但并没有出现那种必须收集所有雕塑品的大规模热潮。
So there is sort of interest amongst some, but it's not a big explosion of we've got to have the statuary and everything that happens.
我的意思是，在赫库兰尼姆，这种兴趣更早就开始了。
I mean, in Herculaneum, it starts beforehand.
它始于十八世纪初，当时有个人在赫库兰尼姆的剧院下方打井，挖出了大理石。
It starts at the beginning of the eighteenth century when when a guy sinks his well over the theater in Herculaneum and pulls out marble.
接着，一位奥地利王子决定：我要建一座别墅，墙上很适合用这些大理石。
And then there's a there's an Austrian prince who decides, I'm building a villa, I'd quite like that marble on my walls.
谢谢。
Thanks.
于是他启动了这一过程，后来当查尔斯·波旁来到这里，说‘我们要把这些东西全部收集起来’，并建立博物馆时，这件事才真正爆发开来。
So he kind of, he starts the sort of the process and then it kind of gets exploded when, when Charles Bourbon kind of comes into town and says, yes, let's have all this stuff and builds a museum and the rest of it.
然后是汉密尔顿夫人，
And then Lady Hamilton's,
是的，他确实为她做了不少工作。
cock on Yes, her he does a fair bit.
他做了很多工作。
He does a lot
的创作。
of work.
我们有一个问题，虽然已经稍微提到过，但也许我们可以进一步展开谈谈。
We've got a question we've already kind of touched on it, but maybe we could just, as it were, flesh it out.
它来自一个名字恰如其分的人——埃尼乌斯。
It's from the aptly named Ennius.
他说，鉴于最近的发现，庞贝和赫库兰尼姆居民的日常饮食通常是什么样的？
And he says, in the light of recent discoveries, what would the typical daily diet of a resident of Pompe and Herculaneum be?
我想这取决于一个人的社会阶层
And I suppose that depends on what class of person
我们？实际上，这挺有意思的。
are we Well, talking actually it's quite interesting.
我们的好朋友安德鲁·华莱士·哈德尔在赫库兰尼姆挖了一条下水道，这条下水道穿过一系列住宅和商铺，从非常底层到稍微好一点的阶层都有。
Our good friend Andrew Wallace Haddle dug a sewer in Herculaneum and the sewer goes underneath a range of houses and shops and from, you know, very low class to slightly better.
他能清楚地看到每户人家排泄出的东西。
And he could see exactly what they were shitting out of each house.
事实上，他们食物的种类和你在精英家庭中发现的几乎一模一样。
And in fact, the range of foods was just like you'd find, you know, in an elite house.
他们吃新鲜的鱼——毕竟他们住在海边，还有贝类、肉类、各种蔬菜，从这些证据来看，饮食似乎是这些城镇中最大的共同点。
They were having fresh fish, I mean, they live right on the coast, seashells, meats, different vegetables, and their diet is actually sort of the one thing that's the great unifier in these towns, I think, from this evidence.
此外，还有大量食物题材的壁画，帮助我们了解他们种植了什么。
And then you've got all the frescoes of food which kind of help us see what they were growing.
在我看来，庞贝人和赫库兰尼姆人似乎一直在吃东西。
I think it's to me that the Pompeians and Herculaneum people were sort of perpetually eating.
所以他们并不是在自家花园里种植这些食物——尽管他们确实经常在自家花园里种东西。
So they weren't growing it themselves in their gardens, which they did a lot.
我们有很好的考古发现，可以展示他们种植了卷心菜、大蒜之类的东西，当然还有葡萄园。
And we have good excavations to show us what kind of, you know, they had cabbages and garlic and things like that and obviously vineyards.
但他们在墙上画了这些食物的图像，然后出去购买，最后再吃掉。
But then they had pictures of them on their walls and then they would go out and buy it and then eventually they would eat it.
但这几乎是持续不断的，这其实非常意大利化——如果你现在去意大利，和意大利人一起吃饭时，他们会一直谈论下一顿饭。
But it's kind of just constant, which is very Italian actually, if you go to Italy now, if you're having a meal with an Italian, they'll be talking about the next meal.
那么索菲，他们一天吃几餐呢？
They So how many meals a day, Sophie, do they have?
我认为他们一天吃三餐。
I think they were having three.
我认为一天中最主要的一餐是午餐，如果我没记错的话。
Think the main meal, I think, in the day was lunch, if I'm not mistaken.
我永远感激你带我深入赫库兰尼姆博物馆的幕后，向我展示了所有无花果、谷物的炭化残骸，以及那令人惊叹的、巨大的
I will always be grateful to you for taking me behind the scenes of the museum at Herculaneum showing me the charred remains of all the figs and grains and amazing, amazing size And of the
面包，我的意思是，有整条的面包。
the bread, mean, have loaves of bread.
但所有这些证据都帮助我们确切地了解他们吃的是什么。
But yeah, so all of that evidence helps us know exactly what they're eating.
不过，赫库兰尼姆的证据非常出色，足以说明这些人普遍享受着非常健康的饮食。
But yeah, think that the Herculaneum evidence is excellent for kind of saying across the board that these people were all enjoying a kind of really good diet.
他们生活在肥沃的土地上，毗邻物产丰富的海洋，条件堪称完美。
They were on fertile land next to a bountiful sea, it was kind of perfect.
这正好引出了约翰·霍格的问题。
Well, brings us perfectly to John Hogg's question.
他显然是一位下水道顾问或某种废物处理专业人士。
He wants to know about, he's obviously a sewerage consultant or some sort of waste disposal professional.
他想知道关于街道清洁的情况。
He wants to know about street cleansing.
当时很脏吗？
Was it dirty?
人们会把垃圾扔到街上吗？
Were people throwing their stuff out in the street?
他质疑当时有多少下水道。
How many were there he he questions whether there were sewers.
他说，似乎几乎没有下水道。
There appeared to be little or no sewers, he says.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
不。
No.
庞贝确实缺乏下水道系统。
Pompeii Pompeii does have a lack of sewers.
我想可能有一条巨大的主下水道。
I think there's one massive big one.
但基本上，庞贝街道下方没有任何下水道。
But basically under the streets of Pompeii there's none.
他们排便时，基本上使用的是渗水坑。
They used for their poo, they basically used sort of soakaways.
他们只是利用天然土壤来自然吸收。
They just they just use had the natural earth to kind of absorb.
不错。
Nice.
很臭。
Smelly.
是的，有一件事很多人忘记了，就是庞贝的气味。
So yes, no, there's one thing that I think a lot of people forget is the smell of Pompe.
我认为有时候气味相当难闻。
And I think it would have been pretty rancid at times.
关于街道清洁，确实有法律要求确保房屋外部干净，但这并不意味着情况不肮脏。
In terms of cleaning the streets, there are laws about making sure that your property is clean outside, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't quite disgusting.
事实上，在最近的发掘中，因为你知道，他们不仅仅是为了快速获取道路和建筑等硬性考古证据。
And in fact, in the recent excavations, because, you know, they weren't just trying to get down to hard and fast archaeology in terms of roads and buildings.
他们还在研究各种堆积物。
They were looking at all the sort of accumulations.
他们在一条路上发现了一大堆粪便。
They did find on a road a sort of a slew of of shit, basically.
这确实显示出一些小巷可能处于什么样的状态。
And it kind of does show the state that some of these, you know, back streets might have been in.
主要街道可能非常干净整洁，因为城镇的市政官会经常经过那里，但后街可能更糟糕。
The main thoroughfares might have been really nice and clean and looked after because that's where the aediles of the town were kind of passing through, but the back streets may have been worse.
但在清理街道方面，他们利用了自然力量。
But in terms of cleaning the streets, they had a sort of they used nature.
由于庞贝城位于斜坡上，下雨时，他们会有水渠和蓄水设施在较干燥的季节收集雨水，但雨水会溢出并直接冲刷街道。
And because Pompeii is on a slope, when it rains, they had water towels and things collecting water during during sort of drier seasons, but that would overflow and they would just let the water race down the street.
当现在你在庞贝城下雨时，道路就像河流一样。
And when it rains in Pompeii, if you're there now, the roads are like rivers.
这时你才会突然明白那些小小的踏脚石为何如此有用。
And then you suddenly realize why those little stepping stones are actually quite useful.
这样你就能避开这些汹涌的水流。
So you can kind of avoid these torrents of water.
所以它基本上是自然清洁的，但人们也会参与其中。
So it kind of would have naturally cleaned itself, but people would have been involved.
但没错，那地方肯定很臭。
But yeah, it would have been a pretty smelly
地方。
place.
当然，人们自己也会很臭，对吧？
Course, the people would have been very smelly, wouldn't they?
不过他们确实经常光顾酒吧。
Although they did enjoy their bars regularly.
但酒吧里有一股油腻的气味。
But the bars, oily smell to you.
在别人的唾液里蹚水。
Wading around in other people's gums.
是的。
Yes.
干杯。
Cheers.
这是下一个问题，来自伊恩·麦金农，我们已经多次提到过这一点，但让我们试着把它说清楚。
This is this is the next question is from Ian MacKinnon, and it is something that we have touched on several times, but let's just try and nail it down.
现实地说，庞贝还可能发现全新的东西吗？还是我们已经基本了解了所有能了解的内容？
Realistically, is there likely to be any more completely new discoveries at Pompe, or have we probably learned everything we're going to learn?
所以我想他的意思是，某种壮观的建筑，某种惊人的宏伟结构。
So I guess by that, he means some spectacular building, some amazing edifice.
但当然，实际上最引人入胜的是那些细微的细节，比如涂鸦或意想不到的发现。
But of course, mean, actually, in a way, what's most fascinating is the kind of the tiny details graffiti or the unexpected.
除非他们找到规划办公室，我倒希望如此，这对我工作很有帮助，比如房屋是如何发展起来的之类的事情。
Unless they find the planning office, I'd like that for my work, sort of how houses developed and things like that, that would be really useful.
但不，关键是细节。
But no, absolutely, key is in the detail.
这些新的发掘证实了我们早已知道的许多内容，这令人安心。
These new excavations have provided a lot of confirmation of what we already knew, which is reassuring.
但他们不断发现新的涂鸦或标语，比如有人竞选公职之类的细节。
But they keep adding like little details of new graffiti or signs that say somebody's running for political office or something like that.
所以我们正在拼凑出一幅完整的图景，但像酒吧这样的地方真正改变了我们对他们饮食或这些快餐店中食物的认知，我的意思是，我不该称它们为快餐。
So we we are building a picture, but but things like the bar that really change how we know about their diet or what was being eaten in these fast food places, which I mean, I shouldn't call it fast food.
称它们为快餐真让我感到反胃。
Actually makes me queasy calling that that.
因为我们就这样给它们贴上了标签。
Cause we're labeling it as such.
我刚搬过家。
I just moved.
但没错，我认为还有很多东西有待发现。
But yeah, no, I think there's plenty to be found.
我的意思是，这座城市还有三分之一尚未发掘。
I mean, one third of the city is still uncovered.
还有很多东西埋在那里，但我希望，以一种奇怪的方式，我这辈子都不要看到它们被挖出来。
There's there's still a lot out there, but I hope in a weird way, I don't want to see it in my lifetime.
是的，索菲，如果你有一个梦想中的发现，你最想找到的一样东西、一个困扰你的问题或一项发现，会是什么？
Yeah, if you had a kind of dream discovery, Sophie, if there's one thing you wanted to find, a question that nags at you or a discovery, what would it be?
我会选规划办公室。
It would be the planning office.
我会想知道人们是如何，我的意思是，如果真的有
It would be how people, I mean, if there was That's not
这并不是我期待的答案。
the answer I was
期待的答案。
expecting to.
抱歉。
Sorry.
好吧。
Okay.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我更了解，但当你在那里待太久、对墙壁着迷时，就会变成这样。
I more know, but this is what you get when you work there too long and you're obsessed by walls.
你想知道，他们有没有获得许可来扩建房屋并更改他们的财产？
You want to know, did they get permission to add to their houses and change their property back?
你是想问他们有没有获得规划许可？
You want to know if they got planning permission?
这真的是让你夜不能寐的问题。
That's genuinely your question that keeps you awake at night.
她应该去写20世纪70年代英格兰的历史。
She should be writing the history of 1970s England.
是啊，我对这个没什么浪漫的想象，抱歉。
Yeah, I haven't got a very romantic notion on that, sorry.
所以不是那个被埋藏的图书馆？
So not the buried library?
嗯，如果规划办公室正好在图书馆旁边，那就对了。
Well, if the planning office happens to be next to the library, bingo.
每个人
Everyone
都会很高兴。
would be happy.
我觉得我们已经谈了不少了。
I think we've covered a a fair amount.
介意我插一句我精心研究过的内容吗？
Do you mind if I just crowbar in one thing that I carefully researched?
嗯。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
当然。
Sure.
问了个问题。
Asked a question.
有没有证据表明基督徒曾生活在庞贝？
Were there any is there any evidence for, Christians having been in Pompeii?
我觉得这很有趣，因为它展示了在某种程度上，理解考古过程是多么困难。
And I think it's interesting because it shows how, in a way, how difficult it is to to to kind of make sense of the the process of archaeology.
因为事实上，1862年发现了一块铭文，上面似乎有'Christianos'（基督徒）字样，通常被翻译为'波维奥正在聆听那些残忍的仇敌基督徒'。
Because it turns out that there there was an inscription that was found in 1862 that apparently did it has Christianos, so Christians, and it's conventionally translated as Bovio is listening to the Christians who are cruel haters is how it's conventionally translated.
但问题是，这块铭文原本刻在一座现已不复存在的建筑上，曾有多种抄录版本。
But the problem is that there were various transcriptions made of this inscription that was on a building that no longer exists.
所以问题就变成了：它是否被正确地抄录下来了？
So the issue then becomes, you know, was it copied down correctly?
当然，因为在十九世纪中期，人们一直在寻找庞贝的基督徒，是否存在一种愿望投射？
And, of course, because in the middle of the nineteenth century, people were looking for Christians in Pompeii, Was there a bit of wish fulfillment going on?
我认为目前的主流共识是，它可能是真实的，但很难确定。
I think that latest consensus, probably, it it it is authentic, but hard to know.
而且，这再次印证了多米尼克最黑暗的猜疑。
And, again, this will confirm Dominic's darkest suspicions.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这非常罕见。
So it's very rare.
当你以为自己找到了确凿的证据时，它却突然变得不确定了。
Just when you think that you've got a really clinching piece of evidence, it kind of slips
从你手中溜走了。是的。
through your Yeah.
赫库兰尼姆的墙上有一个十字架。
There's a crucifix in Herculaneum on the wall.
有一个十字架的形状。
There's the shape of a crucifix.
哇。
Wow.
人们对此非常兴奋，但结果可能只是个搁板的固定装置。
People It's got really excited about this and it ends up, it's probably just a fixture for a shelf.
就像是，你可以
It's like, you can
把这些事情解释过去。
explain these things away.
是的。
Yeah.
但对犹太人来说也是如此。
But the same is true for Jews.
有人问我庞贝城里是不是有很多犹太人，你知道，我们并没有太多证据，但我们知道他们住在罗马，至于他们是否在庞贝，很难说清楚。
I've been asked if there are lots of Jews in in Pompeii and, you know, we don't really have much evidence, but we we know they're in Rome, but but whether they're they're in Pompeii, hard hard to tell.
但我们确实有那位印度女神。
But we do we do have that Indian goddess.
但我们确实有那个。
But we do have that.
让我们抓住
Let's cling
让我们坚持这一点。
let's cling to that.
好了，索菲，非常感谢你。
Well, Sophie, thanks so much.
很高兴。
Pleasure.
非常，非常令人兴奋。
Very, very exciting.
在斯蒂芬·弗莱之后，你是我们的第一位嘉宾。
After Stephen Fry, you are our first guest.
非常非常感谢。
Very, very much.
他是一位伟大的
He was a great
更温暖，更热情的掌声。
warmer, warmer pat.
你，索菲。
You, Sophie.
那太精彩了。
That was fascinating.
不。
No.
我的荣幸。
My pleasure.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
好的。
Okay.
我们下周会回来，在我的节目中，我的特别嘉宾唐和卡桑德拉也会和我一起。
We'll be, we'll be back next week, on my show, my special guest, Don, Cassandra, will be with me as well.
那我们到时候见。
So we'll see you then.
再见。
Goodbye.
感谢收听《余史》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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