17. 法西斯主义

你好。

Hello.

欢迎来到余下的历史。

Welcome to the rest is history.

历史。

History.

今天，我们要讨论其中一个重要的“主义”。

Today, we're gonna be talking about one of the big isms.

你经常会遇到社会主义者、无政府主义者，甚至共产主义者。

Now you'll often meet a a socialist, an anarchist, even a communist.

但你很少会遇到有人愿意自称是法西斯主义者。

It's very rare that you'll meet somebody who will willingly describe themselves as a fascist.

那么，什么是法西斯主义？

So what is fascism?

它的根源是什么？

What are its roots?

所有的法西斯主义者都是纳粹吗？

Are all fascists Nazis?

有法西斯主义者是民主党人吗？

Are any fascists Democrats?

所有的法西斯主义者都特别邪恶吗？

And are all fascists uniquely evil?

欢迎收听《历史的余音》，这档播客将深入政治历史的阴暗小巷，照亮那些藏在角落里有时令人不安的思想。

Welcome to the rest is history, the podcast that roams down the dark alleys of political history and shines a torch on the sometimes disturbing ideas that you find in the corners.

我是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克，和我一起的是首席自由派精英调查员汤姆·霍兰德。

I'm Dominic Sandbrook, and with me is chief liberal elite investigator, Tom Holland.

你好，汤姆。

Hello, Tom.

你怎么样？

How are you?

很好。

Very well.

谢谢你，多米尼克。

Thank you, Dominic.

谢谢。

Thanks.

所以，汤姆，我们关于法西斯主义的反馈非常热烈。

So, Tom, we had the most colossal postback on fascism.

正如你所料，这个话题几乎从不缺乏读者，或者我们希望的，听众。

As you might expect, it's a subject that basically never fails to sell books or, let's hope, podcasts.

那么，我们发现了什么？

So what have we found?

分享一些你挖掘出来的提问吧。

Share some of your some of your some of your questions that you've dug up.

嗯，仔细看了这些提问后，我发现很多人其实都在问：什么是法西斯主义？

Well, looking through them, I think that large numbers of them are saying actually, what is fascism?

还有一个来自凯尔文的问题，我认为非常精准地切入了核心问题。

And there's a question from Kelvin that I think, zooms in very well on on perhaps what what's the core issue.

他问：法西斯主义有没有一个实际的历史定义，还是说它更像是一种‘我见到时就知道’的情形？

He he asks, is there an actual historical definition of fascism, or is it more of a I know it when I see it type of scenario?

然后他补充说，比如，古希腊的斯巴达人能否被 retrospectively（追溯性地）算作法西斯主义？

And then he adds, for instance, could retrospectively the Spartans of ancient Greece count?

所以我认为，核心问题是：法西斯主义是否能从历史中抽象出来？

So I think that at the heart is is fascism something that can be abstracted from history?

它是否能描述一种贯穿历史始终的、对威权主义或种族主义等的态度？

Is it something that can describe, maybe an attitude towards authoritarianism or racism or whatever that is a constant throughout history?

还是说它根植于非常特定的文化、政治和经济环境？

Or is it something that is rooted in very specific cultural, political, economic circumstances?

而我个人倾向于后者。

And personally, I would would go for the latter.

我不知道你持什么看法。

I don't know how how you feel.

你是现代史学家。

You're the the modern historian.

你对此怎么看？

What's your take on that?

我绝对倾向于

I absolutely would go for

后者。

the latter.

我现在觉得人们用‘法西斯’来指代邪恶，不是吗？

I would say it is people use fascists now to mean evil, don't they?

我觉得这种用法有点不对。

Which I think is is is sort of wrong.

我的意思是，我不是说法西斯不邪恶，但你这样用，其实是一种道德上的简略表达，我认为这是错误的。

I mean, I'm not saying fascists weren't evil, but I'm but it's not to you, so there's a moral shorthand, I think, is wrong.

我认为法西斯主义根植于第一次世界大战后几十年里特定的时代和地域。

I think it's fascism was rooted in a very specific time and place in the decades after the First World War.

我认为第一次世界大战对法西斯主义至关重要。

Think the First World War was absolutely central to fascism.

而且，你知道，历史学家为了回答凯尔文的问题，花了大量时间和笔墨来争论法西斯主义是什么。

And, you know, historians to answer Kelvin's question, historians have spent, you know, enormous amounts of time and ink debating what fascism is.

总的来说，他们回归到像罗伯特·帕克斯顿和罗杰·格里芬这样的法西斯主义研究奠基性历史学家的观点，这些观点都指向相同的核心内容。

And they come back to, by and large, people like Robert Paxton and Roger Griffin, these sort of landmark historians of fascism, they come back to the same things.

因此，法西斯主义根植于一个充满受害感和屈辱感的国家，这种感受往往源于战争。

So it's rooted in a nation that has a sense of victimhood and humiliation and often through war.

它追求一种民族复兴。

And it strives for a kind of national rebirth.

它拒绝民主。

It rejects democracy.

它以共产主义为对立面来定义自身。

It defines itself against communism.

它主张存在一种革命性运动，能够重塑国家，恢复其丧失的阳刚之气与自豪感，实际上通过速度、 spectacle 和科技与暴力，创造一种新人类。

It argues that there's room for a kind of revolutionary movement that will remake the nation and will restore its lost kind of virility and its lost pride and create new men, in fact, will create a new kind of human being through speed and spectacle and technology and violence.

而暴力始终是其核心。

And violence is always at the core of it.

我想，你现在可能会不同意我的观点，汤姆，但我觉得，尽管你能在更早的运动中看到这些元素的影子，其中一些甚至是永恒的，但这一模式非常具体，根植于第一次世界大战后的那种屈辱感。

And you can see, I think, now maybe you'll disagree with me about this, Tom, but I think although you can see elements of all those things in earlier movements, and some of them are kind of timeless, the formula is very specific and is rooted in that experience of of the first world war and the sort of sense of humiliation afterwards.

是的。

Yeah.

我的看法可能有点特别，因为我从未系统研究过法西斯主义。

I mean, my my take on it is perhaps a a kind of slightly strange one because I've I've never studied fascism.

我在学校时没学过。

I never did it at school.

在大学时也没学过。

Never did it at university.

我唯一一次写到它，是在写基督教相关主题时。

And the only time I've written about it was, in the context of writing about Christianity.

在我看来，法西斯主义是欧洲历史上最彻底的革命运动，因为它不仅像法国大革命和俄国革命那样颠覆了基督教的制度性规范，更直接攻击了自由主义后基督教社会所继承的基督教核心价值。

And it seems to me that fascism is the most profoundly revolutionary movement, that Europe has witnessed because it represents, an overturning not just of institutional Christian norms as the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution did, but an attack on some of the core fundamental values of Christianity that liberal post Christianity has inherited.

我想特别指出其中两点。

And I would fix on two in particular.

基督教的核心，体现在基督被钉在十字架上的形象中，是一种认为受难具有美德的理念，即先者将为后，后者将为先。

At the heart of Christianity, as evinced by image of Christ on the cross, is the idea that there is a virtue in victimhood, that those who are the first shall be last, the last shall be first.

纳粹显然不同意这一点，墨索里尼旗下的法西斯主义者也是如此。

The Nazis obviously do not agree with that, neither do do the fascists under Mussolini.

另一个核心的基督教理念是，所有人皆具有普遍的人性尊严，所有人都是按上帝的形象平等创造的，正如圣保罗所说，既无希腊人，也无犹太人。

The other core Christian idea is that there is a universal human dignity, that all human beings are created equally in the image of God, and that, as Saint Paul puts it, there is no dual Greek.

显然，法西斯主义者尤其强调犹太人和希腊人从根本上截然不同。

Now, obviously, the Farsees in particular are very, very keen on the idea that Jews and Greeks are fundamentally separate and distinct.

我认为，我们已经谈过纳粹和法西斯主义者是邪恶的。

And I think that I think that fundamentally, we you know, we've already talked about Nazis and fascists being evil.

这本质上是一种基督教式的分类方式。

That, of course, is essentially a kind of Christian categorization.

我认为我们如此轻易地这样做的原因，正是法西斯主义者和纳粹尤其攻击了我们今天仍保留的核心道德价值；某种程度上，这也是二战后制度性基督教急剧衰落的原因之一——因为纳粹某种程度上替我们完成了这项工作。

And I think that the reason that we do that so readily is precisely the fact that the fascists and the Nazis in particular assaulted the core moral values of what the the core moral values that we still have today to the degree that I think that that to to an extent we no longer one of the reasons that institutional Christianity has has declined so profoundly since the second World War is that in a sense, the Nazis do the job for us.

从某种意义上说，希特勒就是撒旦。

Hitler, in a sense, is Satan.

纳粹是恶魔。

The Nazis are the demons.

奥斯维辛就是地狱。

Auschwitz is hell.

所以，如果我们想知道——我的意思是，在上几代人中，如果我们想知道什么是正确的、什么是善的、什么是道德的，我们会说，耶稣会怎么做，然后我们就照着做。

And so if we want to know I mean, you know, in in previous generations, if we wanted to know what what the right thing is, what is good, what is morally good, We would say, what what did what would Jesus do and do it.

现在我们倾向于问：希特勒会怎么做？然后我们反其道而行之。

Now we tend to ask, what would Hitler do and do the opposite?

所以这已经成为

So it's become

一种道德尺度，不是吗？

a sort of moral yardstick, hasn't it?

但让我暂时把话题从基督教转向罗马人，这是你的另一个重要研究领域。

But let me drag you for a second away from Christianity and towards the Romans, which is your other one of your other big fields.

首先，法西斯主义——我的意思是，关于法西斯主义的起源有很多问题，但第一个真正成功的法西斯政党显然出现在意大利。

So the the first fascists I mean, there's lots of questions about the origins of fascism, but the first really successful fascist party was obviously in Italy.

而这一术语和法西斯主义的象征体系正是在意大利和墨索里尼时期被创造出来的，他们立即回溯到古罗马。

And it was in Italy and in Mussolini that you had the invention of the term fascism and and the fascist iconography, and they were looking back straight away to the to the Romans.

那是什么？

And what is that?

我是说，法西斯束棒，我想我发音应该没错。

I mean, the the fasces, I think I'm that's I assume that's the right pronunciation.

这到底是什么意思？

What's all that about?

那些东西到底是什么？

What are those things?

法西斯束棒的概念是，这些木棒——笞刑棒——在罗马共和国时期是官员有权鞭打反对者的一种象征。

So the the idea of the fasces is that if you bump their their rods, birching rods, and in the Roman Republic, they are emblems of a magistrate's right to to beat those who oppose him.

它们由被称为侍从官的官员扛在肩上，伴随在官员周围行进。

And they're carried on the shoulders of officials called lictors who march around with the with the magistrate.

法西斯束棒的象征意义在于：单根木棒可以折断，但当它们被捆在一起时，就无法折断了。

And the the symbolism of the fasces is that you can break one rod, but if they're bundled up, you can't.

因此，这对墨索里尼的吸引力显而易见：如果能将整个国家团结在一起，就不可能被瓦解。

And so the appeal of that to Mussolini is evident that if you can join the entire nation together, then it cannot possibly be broken.

但当然，这种符号与古罗马——对墨索里尼而言，就是统治整个地中海的罗马帝国——的关联，提醒着意大利曾经失落的伟大。

But, of course, the fact that it is, redolent of ancient Rome and for Mussolini, of course, the Roman Empire, which governs the whole Mediterranean, is, a reminder of a kind of state of lost Italian greatness.

这绝对是其吸引力的根本所在。

That is, absolutely kind of fundamental to the appeal.

而它的奇特之处在于，正如你在开场时提到的，法西斯主义者同时被极古老的事物和现代事物所吸引。

And it's kind of the the strangeness of it is, I mean, as you mentioned in your your opening, is that, fascists are simultaneously drawn to the very ancient, but also to the modern.

正是将古罗马的象征符号与飞机、汽车、坦克等现代元素融合在一起，我认为这对法西斯主义的定义至关重要。

And it's that fusion of iconography drawn from ancient Rome with planes and cars and tanks and everything that is modern that I think is pretty fundamental to the definition of fascism.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意这一点。

I I'd agree with that.

我的意思是，普拉尚特·拉奥提出了一个问题：谁是第一个有记录的法西斯主义者？

I mean, Prashant Rao asks this question, who was the first recorded fascist?

关于这个问题，我的答案是——也许你会追溯到更早的历史，但我的看法是，墨索里尼显然是第一个成功的法西斯领导人。

And and my answer to that I mean, maybe you'll delve back into further back into history, but my answer to that would be, Mussolini is obviously the first sort of fascist, successful fascist leader.

他是将法西斯主义转变为国际性品牌、并使其从一种反对派意识形态转变为执政信条的人。

He is the person who sort of turns fascism into an international brand and who turns it into a governing creed rather than a sort of oppositional one.

我的意思是，他之前是有先驱的。

I mean, he had predecessors.

你可能知道露西·休斯那本精彩的作品《 Pike》。

You'll maybe know this brilliant book, The Pike by Lucy Hughes Yes.

关于加布里埃莱·邓南遮的。

Hallet about Gabriele Danuncio.

邓南遮是一位诗人，但也是一位花花公子、名人和飞行员。

Now Danuncio was this poet, but he was also a kind of playboy and a celebrity and an aviator.

他曾领导了推动意大利参加第一次世界大战的运动，邓南遮预见了我们所有与墨索里尼相关的主题：速度、激情、阳刚、暴力、鲜血，以及通过战争实现意大利的重生——在他看来，意大利是一个衰败的国家，需要通过战争重建为一个崭新的国家。

He had led the campaign to get Italy into the First World War, and Danuncio anticipated all the themes that we associate with Massillini about, speed, excitement, virility, violence, blood, a sort of rebirth of Italy, which he saw as this failing state, a new state, but a failing state, through war.

我认为，实际上在墨索里尼之前，很多历史学家都会认同这一点。

And I think, actually, before Mussolini, I think a lot of people historians would would buy this.

丹努齐奥就像是施洗者约翰，用你所提到的基督教比喻来说。

Danuncio is the kind of John the Baptist, to use your Christian sort of formula.

他是施洗者约翰，而墨索里尼则是救世主。

He is John the Baptist to Mussolini's messiah.

在第一次世界大战之后，他在阜姆建立了一个准法西斯国家，对吧？

And in the wake of the the the First World War, he sets up a kind of proto fascist state in, Fiume, doesn't he?

是的，他在现在叫里耶卡的地方这么做了。

He does in what's now Rieker in yeah.

对。

Yes.

他引入了大量后来成为法西斯标志性元素的东西，比如罗马式敬礼，对吧？

I mean and he introduces an awful lot of what will become iconically fascist, including the Roman salute Right.

包括黑衫军、从阳台上发表演讲。

Including the black shirts, including addresses from balconies.

他非常热衷于给敌人灌蓖麻油，这确实是……

He was very keen on feeding castor oil to his enemies, which was something that Yeah.

这也是一个经典的例子。

That's a classic big on as well.

所以我想，是的，丹努乔确实有点像，正如你所说，他是施洗者约翰那样的人物。

So I guess, yeah, Donanzio is is kind but he he's, as you say, the kind of the John the Baptist figure.

但墨索里尼才是真正开创道路的人，不是吗？

But Mussolini really is the I mean, he's the he's the guy who blazes the path, isn't he?

是的，他确实是。

So so well, he is.

但凯尔文，你提到了凯尔文的问题。

But so Kelvin, you mentioned in Kelvin's question.

凯尔文问到了斯巴达人。

Kelvin asked about the Spartans.

对。

Right.

也许我们不这么做。

Maybe we're gonna do this no.

我认为我们现在就应该讨论这个问题，因为它悬而未决。

I think we should do this now, actually, because it's hanging there in the air.

这些人被他们回顾，将他们视为原始法西斯主义者是否合理，还是仅仅是将二十世纪强加于古代世界？

Are these people that they look back to, is it in any way reasonable to see them as proto fascists, or is that merely imposing the twentieth century onto the ancient world?

嗯，墨索里尼回顾罗马，我认为这在一定程度上是可以理解的，而且这是意大利人自罗马帝国崩溃以来一直在做的事情。

Well, so Mussolini, looking back to Rome, I mean, that's kind of understandable, and that's something that that Italians have done pretty much since the Roman Empire implodes.

对于希特勒和纳粹主义，我想在某种程度上是性质不同的。

For Hitler, and Nazism, I guess, is kind of to a degree qualitatively different.

他对古代历史的视角，我认为古代历史对希特勒和墨索里尼都非常重要，但这又与某种非常、非常独特的现代元素融合在一起。

The the perspective that he brings to ancient history, and I think ancient history is really important to Hitler as well as to Mussolini, But it's kind of, again, fused with something that is very, very distinctively modern.

对希特勒而言，这是一种混乱的达尔文主义观念，并强调存在不同种族，这些种族相互竞争，最终必须强大才能胜出。

And for Hitler, that is a kind of garbled sense of Darwinism and an emphasis on the idea that there are different races, that these races are in competition, that ultimately you have to be strong to prevail.

而斯巴达对希特勒的吸引力，恰恰在于他认为这是一个北欧国家的典范。

And the appeal of Sparta, say, for Hitler is precisely that it is a model, Hitler thinks, of a Nordic state.

因此，希特勒对希腊人和罗马人的看法是，他们是北欧人。

So Hitler's take on the Greeks and the Romans is that they are Nordic.

斯巴达人是金发、健壮的。

The Spartans are are blonde, are strapping.

他们著名的黑汤令人作呕，希特勒认为它最初来自石勒苏益格-荷尔斯泰因。

The spy they they had notoriously had a revolting black broth that Hitler thought had originally come from Schlatterwig Holstein.

这太疯狂了。

That's mad.

他真的相信这一点。

He he genuinely thought this.

对希特勒而言，斯巴达人、雅典人、罗马人在其鼎盛时期本质上都是北欧血统，这一点对他理解历史乃至未来都至关重要。

It was absolutely fundamental to Hitler's sense of history and, therefore, of the future as well that the Spartans, the Athenians, the Romans, in their greatness, were were were from basically, Nordic stock.

因此，当希特勒说斯巴达是历史上最赤裸裸的种族主义国家时，他实际上是在事后将斯巴达人纳入自己所推崇的北欧种族主义体系中。

And so when Hitler says that Spartler is the most transparently racist state in history, he is, of course, retrospectively claiming the Spartans for his Nordic brand of racism.

这也是犹太人出现的原因，因为斯巴达、雅典、罗马的衰落，当然有其原因。

And this is also where the Jews come in because what happens to Sparta, what happens to Athens, what happens to Rome, of course, they collapse.

因此，希特勒必须解释为什么会这样。

And so Hitler is obliged to explain why.

而他给出的理由是，他们被犹太人保罗的世界主义普世观所腐蚀。

And the reason he gives is that they are corrupted by the cosmopolitan universalism of the Jew Paul.

因此存在这样一个荒诞的悖论：希特勒最终对犹太人实施种族灭绝的原因之一，是他将基督教及其普世主义归咎于犹太人。

And so there's this grotesque paradox that one of the reasons that Hitler ends up targeting the Jews for genocide is that he is blaming them for Christianity and the universalism of Christianity.

他认为，当他宣告千年帝国时，要想让它持续千年，唯一的前景就是不能重蹈希腊和罗马的覆辙，不能因种族腐蚀而崩溃毁灭。

And and he feels that, you know, that when he proclaims a thousand year Reich, the only prospect of it lasting a thousand years is if it doesn't share in the fate of Greece and Rome, if it doesn't get racially corrupted and therefore collapsed and destroyed.

这是一种奇特的融合——将欧洲历史上一直存在的斯巴达人、雅典人、罗马人典范，与这种极具现代特色的种族观、适者生存理念相结合。

And it's this kind of weird fusion of what has been a constant throughout European history, looking back to the example of the Spartans, the Athenians, the Romans, but fused with this very distinctively modern understanding of race, of the survival of the fittest.

当然，这两个极端所做的就是剔除基督教，因为你既回顾斯巴达人，又看向达尔文主义。

And of course, what those two extremes do is to excise Christianity because you're looking back to the Spartans and you're looking to Darwinism.

中间的一切都被某种程度上摒弃了。

Everything in between is kind of dismissed.

嗯，我认为法西斯主义一个引人入胜之处在于，它之所以成功，原因之一就像许多成功的政治信条一样，它同时回顾过去又展望未来。

Well, one of the fascinating things about fascism, I think, is that one of the reasons it was successful is that, like a lot of successful political creeds, it looks simultaneously backwards and forwards.

所以那种古老的图像符号和那种对古代历史的虚构，正如你之前所说，与所有关于飞机、飞行和技术的这些东西是相辅相成的——我的意思是，法西斯主义在20世纪20和30年代尤其吸引年轻人的原因之一，就是因为它看起来很酷，显得现代又新颖。

So that sort of ancient iconography and that sort of invention of an ancient history goes hand in hand, as you said earlier, with all this stuff about sort of planes and flight and technology, which fascism was seen to I mean, one of the reasons that young people in particular were attracted to fascism in the 1920s and 30s was because it seemed cool and it was seemed modern and new.

他们经常谈论那些掌控民主政体的老人。

And they often talked about the old men who were running democracies.

正是法西斯主义这种双向并行的特质使其如此引人入胜，没错。

And it's that sort of double facing side of fascism that makes it sort of so interesting that it's Yeah.

他们利用古老的神话，却梦想着一个全新的世界。

It's you know, they're taking old myths, but they are dreaming of a new world.

我想你会说，这正是它与共产主义的共同点之一——那种对新世界的憧憬，对吧？

And I guess you would say that that's one thing it has in common with communism is that dream of the new, isn't it?

它并不扎根于当下现实。

That it's it's not rooted in, as it were, in the here and now.

它总是向往着某种乌托邦。

It's sort of always aspiring to this sort of utopia.

但它的魅力就像那些极其暴力的电影一样迷人。

But it's it's it's glamorous in the way that extremely violent films are glamorous.

残酷、战争和暴力对人们而言具有吸引力。

Brutality and war and violence are glamorous to people.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫曾说过一句著名的话，而她显然不是那种你会与暴力魅力联系起来的人。

I mean, there's a famous comment that Virginia Woolf made, who obviously is not someone you would associate with the glamour of violence.

但在1940年5月，当她看到德国军队的成功时，她说他们看起来如此年轻、充满活力、生机勃勃，而我们却显得迟缓而衰老。

But in May 1940, when she's looking at the success of the German armies, and she says that they seem so young, they seem so vigorous, they seem so alive, And and and we look plodding and old.

正如你所说，法西斯主义——尤其是纳粹主义——代表着未来，这种感觉在20世纪30年代一直像阴影一样笼罩着自由民主的捍卫者。

And as you say, that sense that fascism, and I guess particularly Nazism, was kind of the future was something that kind of hung like a shadow over defenders of liberal democracy in in the thirties.

哦，在二三十年代，这种现象随处可见。

Oh, in the third twenties and thirties, you see that all the time.

人们哀叹并说，民主？你们不知道我们所知道的。

People lamenting and saying, is democracy you know, they don't know what we know.

所以他们不知道民主会持久。

So they don't know that democracy will endure.

很多人确实这么认为。

They a lot of people did think.

特别是在墨索里尼开始侵略他人之前，也就是二十年代，墨索里尼从政治光谱的各个阵营都获得了大量赞誉。

And and particularly before Mussolini started invading people, so in the twenties, I mean, Mussolini got a lot of praise from people on all sides of the political spectrum.

人们说，他做了很多公共工程。

Said, oh, he does a lot of public works.

他是个非常阳刚的人。

He's very he's very manly fellow.

丘吉尔曾访问过墨索里尼，是的。

Churchill visited Mosulis Yeah.

丘吉尔曾说，

Churchill prayed.

如果他是意大利人，他也会成为法西斯主义者。

If he was Italian, he would he would have been a fascist.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，这一点有时被拿来作为指责丘吉尔的把柄，说他看错了。

I mean, that but that was and that's sometimes used as a stick to beat Churchill with, that he got that wrong.

但为丘吉尔稍作辩护，在二十年代很多人都对法西斯主义说过类似的话。

But to be in Churchill's sort of slight defense, lots of people said things like that about fascism in the nineteen twenties.

我的意思是，当最终赢得战争的新美国政府——罗斯福政府于1932、33年上台时，他们派人去意大利考察意大利人如何进行公共工程、修建道路等，研究意大利法西斯主义的运作方式，因为他们认为其中可能有些理念可用于美国的新政。

I mean, when the the the new American administration that ends up winning the war, the Roosevelt administration comes in in 1932, '33, they send people to Italy to go and look at how Italians are doing public works and building roads and all this kind of stuff to look at how Italian fascism works because they think it may have some ideas that they can use in the New Deal in America.

是的。

Yeah.

自那以后，那些憎恨新政的人——也就是非常非常右翼的美国人——会说新政其实是法西斯主义的灵感来源，但这并非事实。

And since then, sort of people who hate the New Deal, so very, very right wing Americans say, oh, well, it's really fascist and inspiration, which isn't true.

但确实，在那之前，法西斯主义还没有完全——当然它一直都很暴力——但还没有那种独特的道德污点，那种在希特勒上台后才会有的污点。

But it's true that up to that point, fascism didn't quite it was always still violent, of course, but didn't quite have that sort of that sort of uniquely sort of moral taint that it was to get after Hitler comes to power.

但我想法西斯主义仍然具有某种诱惑力和魅力，即使那是邪恶的魅力。

But I guess what fascism does still have is a kind of allure and glamour, even if it's the glamour of of evil.

我的意思是，我认为我们收到这么多关于这个话题的问题，这表明——你知道——部分魅力就在于，邪恶某种程度上是迷人的。

I mean, I think the fact that we've had so many questions on on this topic suggested it you know, part of the fascination you know, evil is kind of glamorous.

所以我们有两个问题，我认为都不是那种轻率的问题。

And so we've got two questions that I think are not kind of flippant.

我认为，它们实际上非常重要。

I think I mean, think they're actually really important.

一个是来自——希望我没有念错他的名字或她的名字。

One from I hope I hope I'm pronouncing his or her name right.

麦克马思，麦克马蒂，他问：为什么二十世纪中期的法西斯主义者如此重视衬衫的颜色？

MacMath, MacMathee, who asks, why were shirt colors such a big deal for mid twentieth century fascists?

另一个问题是来自克里斯蒂安的：制服是怎么回事？

And with another question from Christian, what's with the uniforms?

而且，实际上，

And, actually,

制服

the uniforms

真的很重要，不是吗？

are really important, aren't they?

我的意思是，从墨索里尼和黑衫军开始。

I mean, beginning with Donanzio and the black shirts.

它们极其重要。

They're massively important.

我的意思是，我认为看待制服必须结合其背景。

I mean, I think what you have to do with the uniforms is you have to see them in context.

在一个许多人穿制服的世界里——这听起来可能非常老生常谈甚至有点傻——但要知道，每年都有成千上万的年轻人加入童子军等需要穿着制服、类似军装的团体。

So in a world in which a lot of people are wearing uniforms, and this will sound to many people as sort of incredibly trite and silly thing to say, but this is a world in which, you know, thousands and thousands of youngsters every year are joining the Boy Scouts and joining groups that where you dress up in uniforms, men military type kind of costumes.

所以童子军某种程度上是爱德华时代的产物。

So the boy scouts had sort of come, you know, Edwardian.

所以大约在同一时期，第一批法西斯式的骚动正在酝酿中。

So around about the same time as as people the first sort of fascist sort of stirrings are getting underway.

然后第一次世界大战爆发了。

Then you have the first world war.

所以很多人穿着制服，而且一战结束后出现了许多准军事运动。

So lots of people are in uniform, and then there are a lot of paramilitary movements at the end of the first world war.

因此你生活在一个许多人一直穿着制服并且喜欢穿制服的世界里。

And there so you you're living in a world in which a lot of people have been wearing uniforms and liked wearing them.

它给了他们一种归属感和身份认同。

It gave them a sense of belonging and a sense of identity.

而希特勒推动制服使用，正是他邪恶智慧的一部分。

And it's part of Mussolini's sort of evil genius that he pushes the uniforms.

当然，当纳粹党兴起时，希特勒后来也这么做了。

And, of course, Hitler does that later on when the Nazi party starts.

该政党以军事化方式组织，设有各种军衔、不同类型的制服等等。

The party is structured in a military kind of way, and there are sort of ranks and different kinds of uniforms and all the rest of it.

这使它在人们所熟悉的世界中找到了根基。

And and that gives it a sort of it anchors it in that world in a way that people understand.

当然，正如你所知，当时很多人觉得制服看起来很酷。

And, of course, as you know, what's sort of hanging over this is that to a lot of people at the time, the uniforms look cool.

他们想穿上它们。

They wanted to wear them.

我的意思是，这么说很糟糕，但事实如此。

I mean, that's a terrible thing to say, but it's true.

甚至到现在，孩子们对纳粹仍有一种着迷，因为他们把纳粹看作像《星球大战》中的邪恶势力一样。

And even now, you know, children, for example, have a fascination with the Nazis because they see them as they do with the forces of evil in Star Wars.

他们都有各自的军衔、不同的头盔和独特的徽章。

They all have their ranks, and they all have different helmets, and they all have their different insignia.

这种东西对我们有一种奇怪的吸引力，不是吗？

And that has a kind of weird hold over us, doesn't it?

但你提到了童子军，贝登堡对希特勒确实很着迷。

But, I mean, you you mentioned the boy scouts, and Baden Powell was kind of fascinated by Hitler Yeah.

直到战争爆发前都是如此。

Pretty much up to the start of the war.

但这里还有一种现代主义、诗歌的元素，以及唐纳佐所代表的那些人物。

But there is also this kind of modernism, poetry, the kind of figures that Donanzio represents.

所以这也是其中的一部分。

So that is also part of it.

唐纳佐是一位著名的花花公子，他不仅是个诗人，外表也像个诗人。

And Donanzio, who's a kind of famous dandy, he's not just a poet, he looks like a poet.

他以一种拜伦式的风格做着一些颇具魅力的事情。

He does kind of glamorous things in a kind of Byronic style.

因此，我认为值得注意的是，正是他发明了黑衬衫，因为他显然具备这种审美眼光——尤其是在地中海的阳光下，黑衬衫可能具有一种特别的威胁感与魅力，使其格外醒目。

And so it's telling, I think, that he is the guy who invents the black shirt because he obviously has the aesthetic sense to I suppose, particularly in the Mediterranean sun, perhaps it has a particular quality of menace and glamour that really makes it stand out.

当奥斯瓦尔德·莫斯利穿的时候，就显得邋遢了吗？

Just looks shabby when Oswald Moseley does it?

你说得对。

You're right.

实际上，玛雅在推特上问过关于这个问题的问题。

And actually Maya asked a question about that on Twitter.

她说：你能谈谈为什么这么多现代主义作家会被法西斯主义吸引，以及法西斯主义对艺术的普遍影响吗？

She said, can you discuss why so many modernist writers were attracted to fascism and fascism's general influence on the arts?

这正是那套话题的一部分，几乎和制服属于同一个主题。

And that's that's part of the set that's almost part of the same topic as the as the uniforms.

因为你说得对。

Because you're right.

是诗人设计了这些制服。

It's a poet who comes up with the uniforms.

你知道，现代主义，无论是文学现代主义还是文化现代主义，都追求激情与风格，打破传统，创造新事物，并对那些他们眼中陈腐守旧、满口妥协、戴着硬领、撑着雨伞的老家伙们深恶痛绝。

And, you know, modernism, literary modernism or cultural modernism was all about excitement and style and breaking with the past and creating something new and an intolerance of what they saw as the sort of the fusty old men who with all their fudges and compromises Wing collars and umbrella.

没错。

Exactly.

那就是。

That was.

所以，如果你读过那种没人会为了消遣而读的意大利未来主义诗人——1910年代那些人的作品，你会发现他们全都在鼓吹砸碎、毁灭。

So if you've ever read the sort of mean, god knows who reads these things for pleasure, but the Italian futurist poets of the nineteen tens, their stuff is all about, you know, smashing, destroying

不是说威尼斯吗？

Venice, isn't it?

摧毁威尼斯。

Destroy Venice.

这种对暴力之美的推崇，现在看来就像个17岁男孩在卧室里写的玩意儿，因为他根本不会跟女孩说话，又感到特别郁闷。

That sort of the the the beauty of the punch, all this kind of stuff that just seems now like the kind of thing a 17 year old boy writes in his bedroom because he's never you know, he he doesn't know how to talk to any girls, and he's feeling very miserable.

这种文学审美观解释了为什么许多 otherwise 聪明的人，比如温德姆·刘易斯那样的诗人，会与法西斯主义暧昧不清，因为他们觉得法西斯主义酷、刺激、激进、新颖，而不是像你所说的那种毛呢质地的、老派的世界。

That sort of that sort of literary aesthetic explains, I think, why a lot of intelligent otherwise intelligent people, kind of Wyndham Lewis type people, poets and stuff, flirted with fascism because they thought it was cool, exciting, radical, new, as opposed to the sort of, as you say, the sort of tweedy Yeah.

爱德华时代那种单领结式的陈腐世界。

One collery sort of world of the Edwardians.

我们马上就要休息一下了。

And we we must come to a break in a minute.

但为了补充一点，另一个关键人物虽然不是诗人，却是一位哲学家，那就是尼采。

But just to just to add to that, another crucial figure who's not a poet but a philosopher is Nietzsche.

墨索里尼非常推崇尼采。

Mussolini is a great admirer of Nietzsche.

尼采本质上宣称——简而言之，他是那位将基督教视为削弱、腐化、必须摒弃的哲学家。

Nietzsche essentially proclaims I mean, basically is the philosopher who dismisses Christianity as sapping, renovating, get rid of it.

他说，随着上帝之死，一个新的秩序将诞生，其中金发野兽将被释放。

And he says that with the death of God, a new order will emerge in which the blonde beast is released.

那将是一个充满巨大动荡的时代。

It will be a time of great convulsions.

墨索里尼完全接受了这一点。

And Mussolini absolutely picks up on this.

我的意思是，墨索里尼在第一次世界大战前就写过关于尼采的文章。

I mean, Mussolini is writing about Nietzsche before the First World War.

尽管尼采对德国民族主义极为反感，甚至成了无国籍人士，但你仍能在希特勒对历史、古典古代、基督教和犹太教的态度中，看到他对尼采思想的扭曲理解。

And although Nietzsche was kind of very, very hostile to German nationalism, really hostile, became a kind of stateless person, even so you can see in Hitler's perspective on history, his attitudes to classical antiquity, to Christianity, to Judaism, that there is a garbled understanding of Nietzsche there.

所以我认为这也是法西斯主义混合体的一部分。

So I think that also is part of this fascist mix.

但我想，就说到这里，我们该休息一下了。

But I think on that note, we must go for a break.

有太多话题要谈了。

So much to talk about.

我们接着聊，我打算

We will continue to I'm going

去熨一下我的黑衬衫，然后马上回来和你们继续聊。

go and iron my black shirt, and, yeah, speak to you in a second.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们已经熨好了制服。

We've pressed our uniforms.

我们准备好了。

We're ready to go.

汤姆，我想问你一个问题。

Tom, I'm gonna ask you a question.

汤姆，我认为我们应该多回答一些问题，因为我们有太多问题了。

And I think what we should do, Tom, is get through loads of the questions because we've got so many.

太多了，对吧？

So many, haven't I

上半场我们大概讲了两个问题，现在还剩大约500个。

think we got through about two in the first half, and we've got only about 500 to go.

那我们看看能讲多少个吧。

So let's see how many we can do.

克里斯·科普。

Chris Cope.

我先从克里斯·科普开始。

I'm gonna kick off with Chris Cope.

克里斯·科普问：如今是否存在任何政权符合你们对法西斯主义的定义？

Chris Cope says, are there any regimes today which would meet your definition of being fascist?

你有什么提名吗？

Do you got any nominations?

我不认为有，因为正如我们之前讨论的，法西斯主义是特定环境交织下的产物，随着墨索里尼和希特勒的死亡，二战结束时这种现象基本就终结了。

I don't think there are because I think, as we've been talking, I think fascism is an expression of particular, confluence of of circumstances that essentially was brought to an end with the Second World War, with the deaths of Mussolini and Hitler.

所以，我认为现在没有了。

So no, I don't think there are any.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

你或许

You've maybe

对时政了如指掌

got a finger on the pulse

吗？

of contemporary politics?

当然了。

Of course I do.

当然了。

Of course I do.

不。

No.

大概不会。

Probably not.

我的意思是，比如有人会说弗拉基米尔·普京是个法西斯，但他其实不是法西斯。

I I mean, for example, people might say Vladimir Putin is a is a fascist, but he means he's not a fascist.

他并不信奉，也没有建立极权体制。

He doesn't believe in he doesn't have a totalitarian regime.

他并不相信要创造一种新的社会。

He doesn't believe in creating a new kind of society.

他是一个威权主义者。

He's an authoritarian.

你知道的。

You know?

一种威权式的民族主义者，但这和法西斯主义并不相同。

An authoritarian kind of nationalist, but that's not the same as being a fascist.

我认为人们常常把这些问题搞混了。

I think people often sort of muddy those things.

所以，我大概会同意你的看法。

So I'd probably agree with you.

不。

No.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，这里还有一个问题，明确是给你的，多米尼克，来自哈罗德·威尔逊。

Well, there's another question here from definitely for you, Dominic, from Harold Wilson.

哦，哈罗德。

Oh, Harold.

哈罗德·威尔逊问：萨拉查和佛朗哥是否与希特勒属于同一类，还是在实质上有区别？

And Harold Wilson is asking, do Salazar and Franco fit into the same mold as Hitler, or are they different in a substantive way?

所以，这个问题的核心是：任何一个独裁者

So again, this really kind of focusing on the question is, is anyone who is a dictator

就是法西斯主义者。

A fascist.

是的。

Yeah.

独裁者和法西斯主义者是同义词吗？

To be a dictator and a fascist, is that synonymous?

嗯，我知道哈罗德·奥尔森会提出一个好问题，这确实是个很棒的问题。

Well, I knew Harold Orson would ask a good question, And that is a great question.

这是一个非常流行的问题。

It's one that's very popular.

所以我认为，葡萄牙的萨拉查和西班牙的佛朗哥并不是法西斯主义者。

So I don't think Salazar, who's Portugal and Franco, who's Spain, are fascists.

他们都曾与法西斯主义的某些元素暧昧往来，但最终，尤其是萨拉查，在短暂接触后压制了本国的法西斯政党。

They both flirt with elements of fascism, but they both actually end up, particularly Salazar, suppressing their local fascist parties after sort of flirting with them.

他们都是威权主义者。

They're both authoritarians.

而且他们与马西隆和希拉的关系都还不错。

But the big and and they're slightly you know, they they have good relationships with Massillon and Hilla.

但关键区别在于，萨拉查和佛朗哥只想让他们的社会停滞不前。

But the big difference is Salazar and Franco just wanna freeze their societies in aspect.

他们希望保留19世纪末葡萄牙和西班牙那种天主教、保守、地主主导的社会形态。

They want to preserve the kind of very Catholic, conservative, landowner dominated worlds of port nineteenth century Portugal and Spain.

他们并不想创造任何新事物。

They don't want to create anything new.

他们对技术不感兴趣。

They're not into the technology.

他们不喜欢大规模的人群集会。

They don't like big meetings of people.

他们不喜欢年轻人表达自我、充满激情和速度感。

They don't like, you know, youngsters sort of expressing themselves and excitement and speed.

他们希望一切都停滞不前。

They want everything to be stuck.

这就是区别。

And that's the difference.

他们不是那种意义上的法西斯主义者。

They're not fascists in

在那种意义上。

that sense.

所以他们是保守派吗？

So they're reactionaries?

没错。

Exactly.

他们是纯粹的威权反动派。

They're pure authoritarian reactionaries.

法西斯主义可能包含反动元素，并可能与反动人士达成协议。

And fascism may have reactionary elements and may do deals with reactionary people.

所以希特勒和墨索里尼都曾与保守精英达成协议，但他们本身是激进派。

So Hitler and Mussolini both did deals with conservative elites, but they were radicals.

我的意思是，有趣的是墨索里尼最初是从左翼开始的。

I mean, that's the interesting thing that Mussolini would start it way on the left.

他原本是个激进的社会主义者，后来基本上重新包装了自己。

He was a sort of radical socialist who then basically rebranded himself.

但约翰·卢克·哈奇关于希特勒与丘吉尔对决的书中，有一个核心主题，那就是丘吉尔是个反动派。

But that's the great theme of the the John Luke Hatch book on the the duel about Hitler and Churchill, that Churchill is a reactionary.

丘吉尔代表了一种在希特勒面前显得过时的秩序，而希特勒在1940年代则完全像是未来的化身。

Churchill is a kind of embodiment of an order that seems antiquated compared to Hitler, who absolutely seems in the 1940 to be the embodiment of the future.

我确实认为希特勒是欧洲历史上最具革命性的人物。

And I really do think that Hitler is the most revolutionary figure in European history.

我认为他践踏并摧毁了过去一千年来欧洲人视为理所当然的东西，比欧洲历史上任何其他人物都多。

I think he pushes he tramples down more that Europeans over the course of the past thousand years have taken for granted than any other figure in European history.

而正如你所说，佛朗哥——我的意思是，他甚至把圣母玛利亚当作他政权中的一种官员，不是吗？

Whereas, as you say, Franco is I mean, he makes the Virgin Mary a kind of an official in his regime, doesn't he?

我的意思是，这就是萨拉查的有趣之处。

I mean, that's the interesting thing about Salazar.

我的意思是，如果你看看萨拉查和佛朗哥，萨拉查是葡萄牙一位经济学教授，非常受尊敬的经济学教授。

I mean, if you look at Salazar and Franco, Salazar was an economics professor, very highly respected economics professor in Portugal.

佛朗哥是西班牙军队的一名将军。

Franco was a general in the Spanish army.

所以他们都是，你知道，按照他们自己的标准来看，成功人士。

So they're both, you know, by their own lights, successful people.

墨索里尼和阿斯温·丘吉尔当然，你知道，出身于贵族家庭，是非常成功的政治家。

Mussolini and Aswin Churchill was, of course, you know, descended from an aristocratic family, very successful politician.

所以他们在这个体系中有利益。

So they've got a stake in the system.

墨索里尼和希特勒都是局外人。

Mussolini and Hitler were both outsiders.

我的意思是，希特勒完全是个失败者，没人看得起他。

I mean, Hitler was complete enough and nobody and a failure.

因此，他当然想摧毁一切，彻底革命一切。

So he, of course, he wants to smash everything and revolutionize everything.

因为对他来说，旧世界代表着失败、痛苦和孤独，以及所有这些负面的东西。

Because to him, the old world is associated with failure and misery and loneliness and all these kinds of things.

这就是为什么他的政权对持有这种观点的人有吸引力。

And that's why his regime has an appeal to people who share that view.

墨索里尼和希特勒的高明之处在于，他们赢得了那些所谓失败者的支持，同时也拉拢了既得利益者，比如地主。

And that genius of both Mussolini and Hitler is to win all those people who are kind of losers, if you like, but also to win over and to do deals with the people who already have a stake, the landowners

接下来请约翰·戴利提个问题，我觉得自己没资格回答，但你肯定可以。

Can and follow that up with a question from John Delay, which I do not feel qualified to answer, but you I'm sure do.

他问，法西斯主义是中产阶级的革命吗？

And he asks, was fascism a revolution of the middle class?

我认为这种说法很有道理。

I think there's probably a lot of truth in that.

因此，法西斯主义常常吸引那些属于下层中产阶级或上层工人阶级的人，他们是那种体面的人，本质上是对共产主义的一种抵制。

So fascism often appealed to people who are kind of lower middle class or very upper working class, are sort of respectable type people, and it's basically an antidote to communism.

这其实是我们还没怎么讨论过的一个方面，汤姆，那就是法西斯主义在多大程度上是共产主义的镜像。

So that's something we haven't really talked about, Tom, is how much fascism is created as a kind of mirror image of communism.

没有共产主义，我认为就不会有法西斯主义。

No communism, I think, no fascism.

因此，人们被吸引去支持法西斯主义的社会，往往都是人们对红色革命感到极度担忧的社会。

So people are drawn, the societies in which people are drawn to fascism tend to be ones where people are very, very worried about a red revolution.

这显然是法西斯主义在20年代俄国革命后兴起的一个原因。

That's obviously one reason why it starts in the 20s after the Russian revolution.

但是

But