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1966年8月19日，北京各地贴出了海报，宣布向过去宣战。
On the 08/19/1966, posters went up across Beijing declaring war on the past.
海报上写道：我们要清算并粉碎一切旧思想、旧文化、旧风俗、旧习惯。
We want to take to task and smash all old ideas, old culture, old customs, old habits, the poster read.
理发师、裁缝、摄影师、书贩以及其他为资产阶级服务的人，无一例外。
Barbers, tailors, photographers, book peddlers, and others who are at the service of the bourgeois class, none of these are exceptions.
我们要反抗旧世界。
We want to rebel against the old world.
第二天，一群充满热情的青年追随者——被称为红卫兵——开始在中国首都四处游荡，攻击任何带有旧习气息的事物。
The next day, roving gangs of youthful enthusiasts for this message, red guards as they were called, began roaming across the Chinese capital attacking anything that smacked off the old way of doing things.
旧街名、理发店、高跟鞋都成了红卫兵的目标。
Old street names, barber shops, high heels, were targeted by the red guards.
几天后，在上海，那里的红卫兵开始攻击花坛和猫。
A few days later in Shanghai, the red guards there started attacking flower beds, cats.
多米尼克，考虑到我们即将开展的关于鸽子的节目。
Dominic, in view of our forthcoming program that we have, on pigeons.
天哪。
Oh god.
赛鸽也成了目标。
Racing pigeons were targeted.
汤姆，你对鸽子这件事真是了如指掌。
You're absolutely incredible on this pigeons issue, Tom.
鸽子在历史上不断出现，它们在文化大革命中也出现了，而这正是我所描述的内容。
Pigeons keep cropping up in history, and they cropped up in the Cultural Revolution, which, of course, is what I'm describing.
随后，古代纪念碑、古典文学、绘画和寺庙也都成了攻击目标。
And in due course, ancient monuments were targeted, classical literature, paintings, and temples.
而这本身又是更大规模动荡的一部分，这场动荡影响了整个中国多年。
And this in turn was part of an even broader convulsion that affected the whole of China for years and years.
我这里引用的是弗兰克·德库尔塔的话，他的著作《文化大革命》是了解这一时期的绝佳指南。
And, and I'm quoting here from Frank de Kurta whose, book, The Cultural Revolution, is a brilliant guide to it.
他写道，有一百五十万到两百万人丧生，但更多人的生活因无尽的批斗、虚假认罪、斗争会和迫害运动而被毁。
And he writes that between one and a half and 2,000,000 people were killed, but many more lives were ruined through endless denunciations, false confessions, struggle meetings, and persecution campaigns.
而多米尼克，作为资产阶级的代表，
And Dominic, as a a representative of the bourgeois, a
历史学家，谢谢。
historian Thank you.
你为《每日邮报》撰稿，你觉得你在文化大革命中会怎样？
Writing for the Daily Mail, how do you think you would have done in the Cultural Revolution?
是的。
Yeah.
我想我第一天就得完蛋了，汤姆。
I think my time would have been up on day one, Tom.
我的意思是，光是我刚理过发，你就能看出来。
I mean, not least I've just had a haircut, as you can tell.
我的意思是，听众们看不到这个。
I mean, the listeners can't see this.
所以关于理发师的那套说辞对我来说可就太糟了，因为我明显是个刚去过理发店的人。
So this business about barbers would have been very bad news for me because I was very I'm very clearly a man who's just been to the barbers.
理发师有什么特别的？
What is it about barbers?
这正是奇怪的地方。
That's the peculiar thing.
不管怎样，我觉得文化大革命是一个极其丰富多彩且引人入胜的话题，但恐怕也是我们做过的最极端的一期。
Anyway, I think that Cultural Revolution is such an unbelievably colorful and fascinating topic, but it's also probably the single most we've done.
我不知道我们做过多少期播客了。
I don't know how many podcasts we've done.
现在差不多有两百期了，汤姆。
The best part of 200 podcasts now, Tom.
我认为这是我们做过的最令人沮丧、最恐怖的故事，因为对我来说，作为一个西方资产阶级的局外人，它似乎代表了彻底堕入无意识的野蛮状态。
And I think this is the single most depressing, horrific story we've done because to me, as a as a Western bourgeois outsider, it seems it seems to represent the the ultimate descent into to me, it seems like mindless barbarism.
但当然，事实并非如此，因为背后其实有着有趣的政治权谋和意识形态上的角力。
But, of course, it isn't because there were interesting political shenanigans and ideological kind of, maneuverings behind it all.
而真正迷人的是，这一切实际上根植于常常冷酷算计的政治考量。
And that's the fascinating thing that actually this is rooted in often quite cold blooded political calculation.
你认为对历史学家来说，这是否有一种特别的恐怖之处？
Do you think that for for a historian, it has a kind of particular horror?
因为对过去的攻击。
Since the attack on the past.
正是因为对过去的攻击。
Because of the attack on the past.
我想向我们英国最杰出的当代中国历史学家之一——拉纳·米特教授提出一个问题，他是牛津大学现代中国历史与政治教授，著有《苦涩的革命：中国与现代世界的斗争》。
And I I a question I would love to put to probably the greatest contemporary historian of China that we have here in Britain, Rana Mitter, who is professor of the history and politics of modern China at Oxford, author of, a bitter revolution, China's struggle with the modern world.
但他最近还出版了两本关于中国与第二次世界大战的杰出著作，一本详述了中日战争，另一本探讨了中国与二战的关系。
But, more recently, two brilliant books on, China and the second world war, one detailing the war with Japan, one, on China's relationship to the Second World War.
他还曾在BBC第三电台的《自由思想》节目中亮相，如今也已成为我们节目的强劲对手，因此我们非常高兴能邀请他做客我们的节目。
Also presented for free thinking on Radio three, and also very much a rival podcast now, so we're very pleased to get him on ours.
瑞安，非常感谢你加入我们。
Ryan, thanks so much for joining us.
我能直接问你这个问题吗？
And could I just I I mean, just put to you that question.
作为一名中国历史学家，您是否觉得文化大革命对中国的纪念碑、档案和传统所造成的破坏景象令人痛心？
As a historian of China, do you find the spectacle of destruction that the Cultural Revolution unleashed against the kind of the monuments and the records and the traditions of China, do you find it upsetting?
汤姆，非常感谢你提出这样一个精彩的问题。
Tom, thanks so much for a great question.
在回答这个问题之前，我必须先表达我能够登上这个传奇播客的喜悦之情。这个播客曾被一位来自主要英语国家的外交官极力推荐——当时我在伦敦和他喝酒时，他拉着我的手臂说：‘你一定要听汤姆和多姆的播客。’
I have to say before I even answer that question, I must also express my delight at being on a legendary podcast, which I've had recommended not least by a diplomat from a major Anglophone country who, you know, took me by the arm when I was having a drink with him in London and say, you have to listen to Tom and Dom's podcast.
而我们所有人也都在听这个播客。
And that is the the one that we're all listening to as well.
能真正登上这个节目，我感到非常荣幸。
So great to actually be beyond.
我认为你说得完全正确。
I think you're absolutely right.
但那些以历史为职业的人，那些真正关心保存过去、诠释过去、抢救日常生活中幸存下来的历史遗存的人，或许尤其会被文化大革命中出现的一种现象深深打击——那就是系统性、有条不紊地将几乎所有被视为‘肮脏’和‘有问题’的过去，即革命前的历史，从公共视野中彻底清除、摧毁、砸碎，有时甚至伴随着暴力。
But those of us who actually ply history for a trade, those who actually care very much about the preservation of the past, the interpretation of the past, saving what has survived from the rough and tumble of everyday life, perhaps are particularly devastated by one of the things that emerged during the Cultural Revolution, which was the way in which systematically and methodically, pretty much every aspect of what was considered to be an unclean and problematic past, the past that essentially dated from before the revolution, was essentially taken out of out of circulation, destroyed, smashed, in some cases violent.
在另一些情况下，更令人不寒而栗的是，你可能会发现西藏的喇嘛寺庙被几乎一块砖一块砖地拆解，这些砖块被重新用于更 mundane 的用途，比如猪圈、工厂，或类似的东西。
In other cases, almost more chillingly, methodically, you could find, Lama temples in Tibet, for instance, which were taken apart almost brick by brick and the bricks reused for more mundane uses, you know, pigpens or factories or whatever it might might be.
因此，过去不仅应该被抛在身后，更应被彻底抹去至近乎无形——这正是文化大革命理念中最令人不寒而栗之处，也是为什么我认为历史学家们在思考这一问题时会感到极其不安的原因。
So the sense that the past not only should be left behind, but should be erased almost to invisibility, that is indeed something very chilling about the heart of that Cultural Revolution, idea and one of the reasons I think historians do find it very, very, troubling to contemplate.
那么，拉纳，为我们描绘一下背景吧，因为我们的许多听众，我想代表我这一代人说，对这段历史并不熟悉。
So, Rana, set the scene for us because a lot of our listeners won't be well, I think I speak for lots of people of my generation.
我们在学校或大学里都没学过中国历史。
We didn't do any Chinese history at school or university.
所以发生了一场革命。
So there's been a revolution.
毛泽东和共产党在二十世纪四十年代末掌权，随后他们又刚经历了一场同样可怕的灾难——大跃进，毛泽东推行的农业集体化，这 arguably 是人类历史上最严重的大饥荒？
Mao and the communists have taken power at the end of the nineteen forties, and then they're coming off the back of an an equally ghastly experience, which is that the Great Leap Forward, Mao's collectivization of agriculture and arguably, is it the greatest famine in world history, the greatest man made famine?
肯定名列前茅。
Must be up there.
我们谈论的是大跃进导致两千万到三千万人死亡，这个数字极其庞大。
I mean, we're talking about twenty to thirty million deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward, so it's huge in number.
当然。
Sure.
之后，毛泽东就退居二线了，他原本是革命的伟大舵手、英雄人物，但似乎渐渐淡出了公众视野。
And after that, Mao had so Mao, was the sort of great helmsman who had, you know, the the the hero of the revolution, he had taken a bit of a backseat.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
他被稍微推到了幕后。
That he had been sort of pushed into the shadows a little bit.
文化大革命在多大程度上是他试图重新回到舞台中央、夺回党领导权的一次重大尝试？
And to is there some degree to which the Cultural Revolution is basically his great attempt to put himself back at center stage and to and to sort of reclaim leadership of the party?
多米尼克，文化大革命可以从多个角度来解读。
The Cultural Revolution can be read in several ways, Dominic.
一种观点是，正如你所说，一位被边缘化的领导人正试图重新将自己置于事件的核心。
One is that we have, a leader who, as you say, has been sidelined and is trying in some ways to place himself at the heart of events again.
但我也认为，不能低估其复杂性。
But I think it's also important not to underestimate.
这不仅仅是一场权力游戏。
This is not just a power play.
如果这仅仅是一场权力斗争，那么中国本可以像过去几十年里世界上数百个国家那样，发生一场军事政变。
If it had been a power play, then China could have had what's happened in hundreds of countries around the world over the years, and that is a military coup.
你知道，你只需拉拢军队里的亲信，把领导人赶下台，然后把自己的支持者扶上位，但事情并不是这样发生的。
You know, you basically get your mates in the army to kick out the leaders and instead, you know, put your own supporters in, and that's not what happened.
换句话说，这同样是一场真正具有意识形态色彩的运动。
In other words, it is also a genuinely ideological movement.
在我看来，这是一场令人恐惧的运动，但它并非虚假的。
It's a terrifying movement in my opinion, but it is not one that is inauthentic.
让我简单说几句，谈谈中国是如何走到1966年文化大革命爆发时的那个地步的。
So let me just say a word or two about how China got to where it was in the 1966 when the the Cultural Revolution broke out.
本质上，二十世纪早期的动荡、各国对中国的入侵，以及中国部分领土被置于一种经济上的半殖民状态。
Essentially, the turmoil of the early twentieth century, the invasion by various foreign countries and parts of China's territory, the placing of China under essentially a sort of economic, sort of semi colonialism.
中国从未像印度那样成为完全的殖民地，但其自身的政策，尤其是关税改革，却无法自主推行。
China was never a full colony unlike India, but there were various aspects of its own policy, particularly tariff reform that it was not allowed to carry out, autonomously.
因此，这引发了强烈的不满。
So that led to a lot of resentment.
接着是二战期间日本的入侵，造成了巨大的动荡、难民逃亡、死亡与破坏，随后是中国二十世纪早期统治者之间的内战——一方是蒋介石领导的国民党，另一方是后来由毛泽东领导的共产党。
You then get the invasion by Japan during World War two, which creates huge turmoil, refugee flight, death and destruction, and then a civil war between the rulers of China in the early twentieth century, the nationalists under Chiang Kai shek, and, the communists who come to be ruled by or, ruled over by Mao Zedong, the man who become known as Chairman Mao.
最终，共产党凭借更出色的军事战术、激进的社会政策（至少在短期内吸引了大量民众），以及来自苏联的支持，战胜了国民党对手，并于1949年掌权。
And, eventually, the communists through a combination of superior military tactics, a radical social policy, at least in the short term, does attract a lot of people, and also support from the Soviet Union, manages to overcome its nationalist opponents and place itself in power in 1949.
正如自那以后一直回响的话语，由毛泽东和其他人所说：中国人民站起来了，他们建立了这个新的共产主义国家。
In the words that have echoed down since, uttered by Mao and by others, the Chinese people had stood up and they had created this new communist state.
这一状态持续了大约十七年，期间先是进行了大规模的土地改革，伴随着巨大的暴力，同时也在重建社会。
So that carried on really for, seventeen years or so, the years, of, first of all, of massive land reform, tremendous violence, as well as reconstruction of society.
接着是你提到的大跃进，这本质上是一场失败的经济实验，试图提升中国的生产力，却最终导致了可怕的后果，数以百万计的农村人口因饥饿而死。
And then the Great Leap Forward you mentioned, which essentially is an a failed economic experiment that tries to boost China's productivity but ends up with a horrific situation that leads to, you know, millions of people starving to death in the countryside.
因此，在二十世纪六十年代初，作为革命领袖的毛泽东被他的同事们稍稍边缘化了——虽然并未被正式羞辱或贬黜，但很明显，大家希望他少出现在公众视野中。
So at the beginning of the nineteen sixties, Mao, who is the leader of the revolution, has been slightly sidelined by his colleagues, not officially shamed or disgraced in any way, but basically made it clear it's been made clear that they want to see a little bit less of him around.
这深深伤害了他的自尊心。
And this is something that really hurts his self self esteem.
他始终认为，自己作为共产主义掌权背后的思想推动者，这一身份是当之无愧的。
He regarded himself, not not without justification, as the ideological mover and shaker behind the communist coming to power in the first place.
被边缘化并不是他真正想接受的事情。
And being moved aside was not something that he he wanted to, really to to do.
但除此之外，这触及了文化大革命意识形态的核心，我认为。
But beyond that, and this gets to the heart, I think, of the ideology of the Cultural Revolution.
到二十世纪六十年代初，毛泽东已经确信革命失去了原有的激情。
By the early nineteen sixties, Mao had become convinced that the revolution had lost its fire.
他看到苏联在斯大林去世后，赫鲁晓夫在各个方面都使苏联从最初激进的革命立场上有所缓和。
He saw the Soviet Union where Stalin had died and Khrushchev had basically moderated the the Soviet Union from its original very radical revolutionary positions in in various ways.
他对自己说，不希望同样的事情在中国发生。
He said to himself that he didn't want the same sort of thing to happen in China.
因为毛泽东把自己与斯大林及其政策联系在一起，对吧？
Because Mao is identifying himself with Stalin, right, and Stalin's policies.
斯大林去世后，赫鲁晓夫公开批判了斯大林。
And then after Stalin's death, Stalin gets denounced by Khrushchev.
所以，毛泽东是否担心自己也会遭遇同样的命运？
And so is it right that Mao is anxious about the same fate befalling him?
说得完全正确。
That's exactly right.
本质上，毛泽东和斯大林的关系非常不健康。
Essentially, the relationship between Mao and Stalin was a very dysfunctional one.
他们彼此钦佩，但也彼此不信任，简直恨不得把对方扔得越远越好。
They both admired each other and also didn't trust each other more than any any further they could throw each other.
但话虽如此，我认为毛泽东一直钦佩斯大林的果断、激进，以及他对个体生命的暴力漠视。
But that having been said, I think Mao always admired star Stalin's decisiveness and his radicalism and also actually his sort of violent disregard for individual human life.
他们两人在这方面非常相似。
They had that very much in common between the the two of them.
因此，赫鲁晓夫在苏联对斯大林的贬斥，被毛泽东视为对中国自身的敌对行为。
So the discrediting of Stalin by Khrushchev in the Soviet Union was seen by Mao as a deeply hostile act towards him in China as well.
因此，到了二十世纪六十年代初，毛泽东开始感到周围处处都是压力，不仅有人想把他边缘化，更严重的是，中国革命正面临沦为他所看到的苏联那种资产阶级修正主义革命的危险。
And as a result of that, by the time you get to the early nineteen sixties, Mao is beginning to feel all around him, not just that he's under pressure, that he's being encircled essentially by people who want to move him aside, but beyond that also that the Chinese revolution is in danger of becoming the kind of bourgeois revisionist revolution, as he would put it, that he saw in the Soviet Union.
这正是他焦虑的根源。
And that's the source of his anxiety.
关于毛泽东，我有个问题。
Just a question about Mao.
我们的听众已经问了几个相关的问题。
We've we've had a couple of questions from our listeners about this.
所以大卫·帕尔默问：大跃进失败后，毛泽东当时怎么样？
So David Palmer asks a question about so after the failure of the great leap forward, I mean, Mao is what?
那时他已进入六十年代末、七十年代初。
His late sixties, early seventies at this point.
为什么其他中国领导人，尤其是在他发动文化大革命、引发全面混乱之后，不干脆把他赶下台？
Why don't the other Chinese leaders, especially when he then launches the Cultural Revolution and there's all this chaos, why don't they just get rid of him?
问题出在哪里？
What's the problem?
我认为有一件事，在今天可能很难想象，但非常值得理解：毛泽东如何将他个人的权威置于中国革命成败的核心位置。
One thing which I think is, in some ways, difficult to recapture in the present day, but is really worth understanding, is how central Mao made his own personality, to the success of the Chinese revolution as a whole.
我们通常认为文化大革命——当然，我们稍后会更详细地讨论——是毛泽东个人崇拜达到顶峰、几乎被神化的最终标志。
We tend to think of the Cultural Revolution, of course, we'll talk about this in more detail, I'm sure, in just a few minutes, as being the apotheosis, you know, the absolute final peak point of of Mao's declaration of his own cult of personality, almost a godlike figure.
但这并不是从二十世纪六十年代才开始的。
But that didn't start in the nineteen sixties.
它实际上始于二十世纪四十年代的整风运动，当时那些希望加入共产主义革命的人被要求参加一个培训项目，在这个项目中，他们不仅受到强烈的心理压力以融入党组织，还被要求阅读一系列书籍。
It really began in the nineteen forties in a period known as the rectification movement when essentially acolytes, people who wanted to come and become part of the communist revolution, were made to undergo a training program in which they were both, you know, pressured psychologically very strongly to become part of the party, but also made to read a selection of books.
在22篇关键文本中，有18篇是毛泽东写的。
And of 22 key texts, 18 were by Mao.
换句话说，他把自己的思想——而不仅仅是泛泛的共产主义思想——置于整个事业的核心位置。
In other words, he was very much placing his own thought, not just communist thought in general, at the center of the project.
对于那些断断续续经历了大约二十年这种过程的人来说，要把这样一位地位极高的人挪开，是的。
And for people who had gone through that process over, you know, on and off, something like twenty years, simply moving someone of that level of standing out of the way Yeah.
这可不是简单地把一个中层经理，甚至一位高级首席执行官，调到一个荣誉性职位上那么简单。
Was not like basically kind of moving a middle manager or even the kind of senior CEO of an executive position out to a kind of honorary chairmanship.
所以这就像我和很多听众对这档播客里的汤姆·霍兰德的感觉一样。
So this is very like how I and and a lot of listeners feel about Tom Holland in this podcast.
对。
Yes.
汤姆·荷兰的想法。
Tom Holland thought.
嗯，我不会去推倒汤姆主席的雕像。
Well, I I I'm not gonna be one to pull down the statue of chairman Tom.
我觉得我还不配做这种事。
I think I'm not worthy of that.
但是，拉纳，我的意思是，这本质上是马克思主义。
But but but, Rana, I mean, basic so it's Marxism.
所以你不能抛弃马克思。
So you can't get rid of Marx.
列宁主义，你也不能抛弃列宁。
Leninism, you can't get rid of Lenin.
毛泽东思想，因此你也无法抛弃毛泽东。
And Mao Zedong thought, and you therefore, you can't get rid of Mao Zedong.
所以这就是向中国人灌输的整套理念。
And so that's a kind of the package that has been sold to to the Chinese.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
这确实是被灌输给中国人的理念，但值得回想一下毛泽东思想究竟是什么。
It is very much the package that's been sold to the Chinese, but it's worth remembering what Maoism is.
还有一个人，我希望你还没邀请过他，但迟早会在播客上请来，那就是杰出的历史学家朱莉娅·洛维尔。她最近出版的关于毛泽东思想的著作提出了一个非常有力的观点：毛泽东的思想无法像马克思的思想那样，被明确地归结为某些特定书籍或文本，并朝向某个固定终点发展。
And someone else who I hope, if you haven't already done, you'll have on the podcast at, at some point, Tom, is the wonderful historian Julia Lovell, whose recent book on Maoism makes a really strong point about Mao Mao's thought, which is that it's not definable, not quite in the way that Marx is, to particular books or particular texts which all build towards a particular endpoint.
相反，你或许不该把毛泽东思想看作是一顿自助餐。
Instead, you could look at Maoism not quite as a smorgasbord.
我觉得用‘自助餐’这个词可能太斯堪的纳维亚了，但或许可以把它比作一桌特别辣味的点心拼盘。
I think that's probably a bit too Scandinavian for it, but maybe some kind of dim sum menu of a particularly kind of fiery chili flavored sort.
换句话说，毛泽东思想是由多种不同元素构成的。
In other words, there are different things that make up what Maoism is.
是的。
Yes.
它关乎农民革命。
It's about peasant revolution.
人们通常会想到这一点，我觉得。
That's the thing that people tend to to to think of, I think.
是的。
Yes.
它涉及运用武装游击战术来战胜敌人。
It's about the use of armed guerrilla tactics to overcome your enemy.
但它也涉及某些哲学理念，比如对暴力更新的颂扬。
But it's also about certain philosophical ideas such as the glorification of violent renewal.
换句话说，将暴力变革本身视为一种积极的善。
In other words, the use of violent change as a positive good in its own right.
他喜欢这一点的原因之一，不仅是因为他确实从中获得某种乐趣，我认为，看到事物被颠覆，还因为他在强烈反抗的儒家哲学传统恰恰更强调悠闲、学术和在许多方面温和。
One of the reasons he liked that was not just because actually he took a certain joy, I think, in seeing things being overturned, but also because the Confucian philosophical tradition against which he was reacting very strongly was much more about being sort of laid back, about being scholarly, about being kind of gentle in many senses.
他希望提出一种拒绝这些原则的哲学，这在他一生的大部分时间里都推动着他。
And he wanted to put forward a philosophy which rejected those principles, and that that drove him for much of his life.
因此，这就是著名的‘枪杆子里面出政权’。
And so that's the famous political power growing out of the barrel of a gun.
嗯，关于枪的这句话在某种程度上确实凸显了暴力变革这一理念。
Well, that phrase about the gun in some ways does bring out that idea of violent change.
事实上，这句话的后半部分也值得注意，那就是党必须始终掌控枪杆子，而枪杆子绝不能掌控党。
In fact, the the the second half of that sentence is also worth noting, which is that is why the party must always control the gun and the gun must never control the party.
换句话说，在这种情况下，这确实也是一个正确的表述。
In other words, it's really also a statement in that case Right.
关于限制暴力以及运用暴力。
About restraining violence as well as using it.
但关于暴力变革这一更广泛的观点，确实非常值得重视。
But the wider point about violent change is certainly well worth noting.
是的。
Yes.
还有，拉纳，关于毛泽东认为革命已经失去动力这一观点。
And, Rana, also on the subject of, you know, Mao's perception that the revolution has run out of fire.
我的意思是，他指出了所有革命都面临的一个问题，那就是不可避免地，你推翻了一个精英阶层，而那些完成推翻的革命者自己又成了新的精英。
I mean, he is putting his finger there on a problem that all revolutions face, which is that inevitably, you you overthrow one elite, and the revolutionaries have who have have done that come to constitute another elite.
我的意思是，这正是他所关注的问题吗？
I mean, is that is that the issue that he's he's kind of focusing in on?
确实是。
It is.
当然，这并不是唯一一次发生这种情况。
And it isn't it isn't, of course, the only occasion that happened.
南斯拉夫马克思主义理论家吉拉斯提出了‘新阶级’这一概念。
The, Yugoslav Marxist theorist, Gilas was the man who thought up the the idea of the new class.
换句话说，那些在体制中迅速崛起的共产党官僚，实际上就像一种新的资产阶级。
In other words, the communist bureaucrats who get so far ahead in the system, they're really like a sort of new bourgeoisie.
在这种情况下，毛泽东也有非常相似的看法。
And in this particular case, Mao, think, had a very similar idea.
例如，他提到卫生部，认为它只关注城市居民的需求，而对农民群体的关注远远不够，他嘲讽地称其为‘城市绅士的卫生部’，以此表达对服务对象的不屑。
He referred, for instance, to the health ministry, which he felt was dealing purely with, the needs of urban dwellers and not nearly enough about the peasantry by referring to it as not the ministry of health, but the ministry of urban gentleman's health, thereby sort of giving them, you know, a rather sort of a scornful eyebrow in terms of who they're actually looking at.
这自然也催生了你可能还记得的‘赤脚医生’政策。
And that led, of course, the policy that you probably will remember of barefoot doctors.
换句话说，那些接受了基本医疗培训的农民被派往农村，试图打破医疗服务仅属于官僚精英专属的观念。
In other words, peasants who were given very basic medical training and then made to go out to the countryside in an attempt to break down this idea of, the the health service purely being the, the preserve of bureaucratic elites.
我不知道英国的安德鲁·兰斯利或某位官员是否曾将赤脚医生视为解决他们问题的方案，但毫无疑问，这在毛泽东的脑海中是存在的。
I don't know whether, you know, kind of Andrew Lansley or one of the members in The UK might have thought of barefoot doctors as a solution to the the problem, problem there, but certainly it was on on Mao's mind.
因此，由于他认为革命在十七年后已经出现了资产阶级化——如果这个词合适的话——这也是文化大革命中最奇特的一点。
And as a result, because of what he would have seen as the bourgeoisification, if that's the right word, of the revolution seventeen years in, he also this is one of the most curious things about the Cultural Revolution.
当他决定激励社会的广大群体起来反抗时，他实际上赢得了大量在之前十七年中被边缘化的人的支持。
When he decided to inspire large parts of society to rise up against it, he was actually able to get an awful lot of adherence from people who had been sidelined in the previous seventeen years.
但其中许多人实际上来自所谓的‘坏阶级’背景。
But many of those were actually people who came from what were known as bad class backgrounds.
换句话说，如果你是旧社会的资产阶级，在共产党革命的十七年里可能遭受了极其严酷的对待，以至于你反而会站在文化大革命的最前线。
In other words, if you were actually a bourgeois from the old society, you might have been so badly treated in the seventeen years of the communist revolution that you would actually find yourself being on the front lines for the Cultural Revolution.
所以，风水轮流转。
So what goes around comes around.
没错，塞思。
Exactly, Seth.
在我们进入文化大革命的叙事之前，最后一个问题是。
So one last question before we get into the sort of narrative of the Cultural Revolution.
这显然是中苏分裂的时代，中国处于孤立状态。
This is obviously the age of the Sino Soviet split, and and China is isolated.
俄罗斯，也就是苏联，正缓慢走向缓和，特别是当尼克松在1969年1月上台时。
Russia is the Soviet Union rather is sort of moving slowly towards detente, particularly when Nixon comes in in in, January 1969.
你认为文化大革命是否也源于对外部包围的偏执，比如苏联已经背离了真正的共产主义道路之类的？
Do you think the Cultural Revolution is also driven by a kind of paranoia about encirclement abroad and and, you know, the the the the Soviets have left the true path of communism and all that sort of thing?
我的意思是，真的存在被攻击的恐惧吗？
I mean, is there a genuine fear of attack and stuff?
文化大革命是中国历史上最排外的时期之一。
The Cultural Revolution is one of the single most xenophobic periods of Chinese history.
这是一个几乎任何与外国有关的联系都会被排斥的时期，无论是会说外语，还是穿着被认为具有外国风格的衣服。
It's a period when almost any association with foreignness, whether it's knowing a foreign language or wearing clothes that are perceived to be foreign.
正如你指出的，多米尼克，外国可能包括苏联，也包括美国，因为中苏分裂意味着苏联在北京仍有外交存在，但双方关系极其冷淡。
And foreign could be Soviet, as you pointed out, Dominic, as well as, as well as American in that case because, of course, the Sino Soviet split meant that there was a Russian diplomatic presence or a Soviet diplomatic presence in Beijing, but it was very, very coldly, handled.
在这种情况下，与外国人有任何牵连都被视为政治上的危险行为，这确实是当时氛围的重要组成部分。
And in that case, it was certainly, very, very much part of the atmosphere that any involvement with foreigners was politically dangerous.
因此，对外国人的恐惧以及他们理论上可能对中国做的事情，也成为了当时政治话语的一部分。
And as a result, the fear of foreigners and what they might be, at least in theory, going to do to China became part of the political language at the time as well.
所以，认为美国主导的世界充满敌意，只待时机进入中国后摧毁共产主义，这种观念在当时占据了很大比重。
So the idea that, you know, certainly the American backed world was hostile and just waiting to destroy communism if they were allowed into into China was a large part of it.
但到了六十年代中期，至少在部分领导层心中，真正压倒性的恐惧是苏联即将进攻中国。
But actually by that stage, by the mid sixties, the fear that it was the Soviet Union that was in fact going to attack China had become a really overwhelming fear in the minds of at least some of the of the leadership.
当然，这最终导致了文化大革命中期中国与美国关系的缓和，这一点我们稍后可能会提到。
And that, of course, eventually, as we'll probably touch upon, leads to a repress a repress walk with America halfway through the Cultural Revolution.
但在文化大革命开始之前，这一点显然完全不明显。
But that certainly wasn't obvious before it had even begun.
所以，拉纳，文化大革命的实际事件，是以毛泽东游长江这种奇特的方式被宣告的。
So, Rana, the the actual events in the Cultural Revolution, it it's signaled in a kind of strange way by Mao going for a swim in the Yangtze.
那么，当时究竟发生了什么？
So what what is going on there?
所以，毛泽东本人在其一生中的大部分时间里，都把体育锻炼作为一种传递政治信号的方式。
So this is what well, Mao himself actually, through much of his life, used physical exercise as a means of sending a political signal.
这在一定程度上是因为他受到了多种影响：马克思主义、中国传统的哲学，以及当时你可能称之为‘同人小说’的作品，比如《水浒传》这类充满冒险精神的中国古典小说。
And this was partly because of the many influences on him, Marxism, Chinese traditional philosophy, the kind of sort of what you might call fanfic novels at the time, you know, the the Outlaws of the Marsh, you know, these classic Chinese novels of daring do.
他阅读并热爱所有这些作品。
He read all of those, loved all of those.
但其中有一个特别重要的影响，实际上在二十世纪的东亚哲学中极为关键，那就是社会达尔文主义。
But one particular influence, which actually was a very big factor in East Asian philosophy in general in the twentieth century, was social Darwinism.
换句话说，这是一种如今显然已被彻底否定的观点，认为种族之间的竞争就像物种在进化过程中相互竞争一样。
In other words, this now obviously completely discredited idea that somehow races compete with each other in the way that, the species, compete with each other in, in terms of evolution.
毛泽东和当时许多知识分子一样，强烈认同这一观点，因此认为个人的体魄强健是表达对国家态度的重要方式，也是国家抵御外来侵略者的基本手段。
And Mao basically bought this, as many intellectuals at time did, very, very, you know, strongly, and therefore decided that physical strength on a personal basis was a really important way of indicating both how you felt towards your country and how, in general, how countries could arm themselves against outside, occupiers.
你有没有觉得，呃，我确定这不可能发生，但有没有出现中年发福的迹象，多米尼克或汤姆，你们现在在哪儿？
Should you feel that there's any kind of, I'm sure it wouldn't be the case, but middle aged spread, appearing, Dominic or Tom, where where you are?
看得见
Can see
一场战斗输了，拉娜。
A battle's lost, Rana.
一场战斗输了。
A battle's lost.
多姆，从我视频里看到的位置，我能看见你穿的运动上衣。
I can see your tracky top, from where I where I I have on the video, actually, Dom.
所以我在想，那里可能真有点什么。
So I'm wondering whether actually there might be a, something there.
你或许会觉得，试试主席的个人锻炼计划会更好一些。
You might feel worse than try out the Chairman Mao personal exercise plan.
哦。
Oh.
他最早写下的文字之一，是我们现在拥有的文献，那是在他成为马克思主义者之前，收录在《全集》里的早期作品。
Well, the first thing the first things that he actually wrote down that we have is one of his written works, which is in the in the complete works very early on, before he became a Marxist.
我现在不给你全文，但可以这么说，它包含了大量的深蹲和臀部挺举动作。
I won't give you the full thing now, but let's just say it involves a lot of up and down squats and and and buttock thrusts are also part of it as well.
我不会在播客里做这个。
I'm not gonna do it on the podcast.
我得说，如果文化大革命是以一些深蹲和臀部推举开始的，那在各种方面都会更加引人入胜。
Now I have to say that had the Cultural Revolution started with a bit of squatting and thrusting, that would have been even more fascinating in various ways.
但正如你所说，真正作为开端信号之一的，其实是游长江，作为一种力量的展示，还有其他一些事情，现在回过头来看，我们能明白当时的风向。
But as you say, it was actually going for a swim in the Yangtze as a kind of show of strength was one of the signals at the beginning, along with a few other things that in retrospect, can see, you know, the wind the direction the wind was going.
所以还有一个实际的事项，按常理可能并不显得特别重要，那就是一篇戏剧评论。
So one actual other item, which might not in normal terms, seem to be a particularly, important element was, a theater review.
我的意思是，通常人们觉得报纸的戏剧版块都放在第二部分，谁会关心这个呢？
I mean, you know, we you normally expect the kind of theater pages are stuck in the second part of the newspaper, and why would you care about that?
但这次，一位名叫吴晗的剧作家兼学者写了一出戏，叫《海瑞罢官》。
But in this case, a play by the, playwright and and scholar, Wuhan, which was called, High Rue Dismissed From Office.
这其实是一个源自明朝的故事，距今已有数百年，讲述了一位正直的官员被罢官的经历。
And this was basically from a metaphor well, not metaphor, but it was a story dating from the Ming dynasty, you know, hundreds of years before about a righteous official official who had been sacked from his job.
毛泽东身边的一些人认为，这出戏被用作了一个隐喻——它确实也是——影射了更近的一件事，那就是在令人恐惧的大跃进期间，时任国防部长彭德怀被解职。彭德怀是一位伟大的共产主义将军，战场上才华横溢，但他敢于向权力说真话。
And various people around Mao thought that this was being used, as it probably was, as an analogy for a much more recent event, which was during the terrifying great leap forward, the firing of the then defense minister, Peng Dehoy, great communist general, brilliant on the battlefield, but he had dared to speak truth to power.
他向毛泽东反映了农村的饥荒情况，结果被直接罢免了职务。
He'd told Mao about the starvation in the countryside, and as a result, was basically kicked out of office.
因此，这部戏的演出被普遍视为对毛泽东的讽刺，随后发表了一篇官方评论，几乎可以肯定是毛泽东及其派系所为，他们质问：某些反革命分子怎敢为一个被正当罢免的官员鸣不平？
So this play, its performance, was basically seen as a dig at Mao, and an official review appeared of this play, which was pretty much attributed to Mao and his factions saying, how dare, you know, some counter revolutionary make this case for an official who has been rightly dismissed from from his, his post.
我们可以看到，这种深刻的怨恨情绪开始在毛泽东控制媒体和宣传机器的地区浮现。
So we could see that this sense of deep resentment was beginning to emerge in the areas where Mao had some control over the media and the propaganda, machinery in in China.
那么，你怎么会从一个人游泳和一篇戏剧评论，演变成大量人四处奔走、关闭理发店、拔掉花坛呢？
So how how do you go from a guy having a swim and a theater review to loads of people rushing around, closing down barbershops and pulling up flower beds?
我的意思是，这远不止如此，汤姆。
I mean It's more than that, Tom.
我的意思是，那还算温和的。
I mean, that's pretty benign.
但这种最初的迹象我们必须
But but but but that kind of initial we've got to
清除所有旧的
get rid of all old
四旧，所有这些东西。
the four olds, all that kind of stuff.
因为事情发生得很快，不是吗？
Because it happens quite quickly, doesn't it?
确实发生得很快。
It does happen quickly.
所以，据我们所知，首先需要意识到的是，当毛泽东发动文化大革命时，他并不知道自己正在发动一场文化大革命。
So the very first thing I think to be aware of, as far as we can tell, is that when Mao started the Cultural Revolution, he didn't know he was starting the Cultural Revolution.
我的意思是，他根本没想到自己即将开启长达十年的剧烈动荡、政治暴力、生命与财产的毁灭，以及文化遗产的破坏等等。
By which I mean, he didn't know he was about to launch what turned out to be ten years of extraordinary turmoil, political violence, destruction of lives and property and, you know, heritage and all of these things.
最初，这只是一个为学生安排的暑期项目。
Originally, it was meant to be a summer project for some students.
我的意思是，我个人更愿意直接送他们去参加爱丁堡公爵奖之类的夏令营，但他有完全不同的想法。
I mean, personally, I'd rather just send them off to kind of, you know, Duke Edinburgh camp or whatever, but he had different different ideas.
换句话说，就是我们之前谈到的那种情绪：革命正在失去激情，需要年轻人来重新点燃它。
In other words, the sentiment that we talked about before, the idea that, look, the revolution is losing its fire, and it's the young people who need to renew it.
而且，我们这里谈论的是二十世纪六十年代。
And, you know, we're talking about the nineteen sixties here.
我的意思是，就在几年后的1968年巴黎，也出现了类似情绪的一种截然不同的表现形式，即年轻人被视为社会中最激进的部分，他们必须反抗长辈来让社会变得更好。
I mean, 1968 in Paris, just a couple of years later, saw a very different manifestation of a similar sort of sentiment that somehow the youth were the most radical part of society, and they had to rise up against their elders to make society better.
中国的不同之处在于，除了它早几年发生之外，是中国共产党主席实际上在从根本上动摇、从底层动摇局势。
The difference in the case of China, apart from the fact it's happening a couple of years earlier, is that it's the chairman of the Chinese Communist Party who's actually essentially, shaking the, shaking the situation up from the, from the bottom.
所以他的想法是，如果我们基本上能让中国的青年，特别是知识青年，也就是大学和中学的学生，在暑假期间走出来，开始攻击——无论是身体上还是言语上——那些自以为了解情况、自以为一切尽在掌握但实际上需要被教训的社会长辈和所谓的上级，那将是对我自己毛泽东为在最高领导层重新获得一定权力而进行的运动的一次良好铺垫。
So his thought was if we can basically get China's youth, particularly the educated youth, the students in universities and high schools to come out over the summer and basically start attacking, whether physically or verbally, the seniors and supposed superiors in society who think they know what they're doing, who think they've got it all worked out, but actually need to be taught a lesson, that will be a good softening up in terms of my own Mao's campaign for, regaining a level of power within the, the top, top leadership.
当时的想法是，学生们会在暑假期间做这件事，然后在秋季就回学校上学，就这样。
And the idea was that the students would do this over the summer, and then they go back to school in the, autumn, period.
所以，这基本上就是一件持续几周，甚至可能几个月的事情。
So it would be something that basically lasted a few weeks, maybe even a few, a few months.
我想，当整件事最终展现出其背后巨大的熊熊烈火，将其推向一个我认为连他自己都未曾预料到的程度时，没有人比毛泽东本人更感到惊讶。
And nobody, I think, was as surprised as Mao himself when the whole thing turned out to have this huge raging fire behind it that took it to a level beyond what I think even he himself would have, have expected.
所以它开始时规模很小，但后来却因此变得声势浩大。
So it started small, but then became large for it.
那么，这引发了一个非常有趣的问题，因为像许多革命或运动一样，总有一个如此基础性的问题，我想。
Well, that that then raises a really interesting question because like so many revolutions or so many movements, there is always this I mean, it's such a sort of a level question, I suppose.
它是自上而下的，还是自下而上的？
Is it top down or is it bottom up?
当然，这引起了关注。
And, obviously, there's attention.
但它的自下而上特性——学生们自己掌握主动权，而从另一个层面来说，你可能会谈到地方精英或地方团体自行其是，未必受中央指挥。
But but the the the bottom up nature of it so the the students, you know, taking things into their own hands, but I suppose you on a different level, you would talk about local elites or local groups taking things into their own hand, maybe not directed by the center.
那么，究竟存在什么？
How when what what is there?
有哪些要素？
What are the ingredients?
你知道，是什么在18岁年轻人的思想或经历中驱使他们走向这种行动？
You know, what is it in in in in 18 year olds' minds or experiences that drives them into this?
我不想听起来像在写一篇中等市场报纸的专栏，但这种暴力的狂欢。
You know, I hate to sound like writing a a column in a mid market newspaper, but this orgy of violence.
我的意思是，这种想法从何而来？
I mean, where does that come from?
这不仅仅是因为他们被要求这么做。
It's not just because they're told to.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Sure.
我不是在谈论英国销量最大的报纸。
Not talking about Britain's biggest selling newspaper.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right.
我不能说你只是个碰巧能推销销售员的机会。
I can't say you're just a chance to sell a salesman.
我认为这些话出自我们最喜爱的报纸，《龙报》。
I think the words are the words of our most beloved newspaper, Ron.
满是深受喜爱的专栏作家，多米尼克。
Full of much loved columnists, Dominic.
当然。
Absolutely.
别忘了‘人民的敌人’这个说法。
Just remember the phrase enemies of the people.
那是文化大革命时期，还是更早一点？
Was that Cultural Revolution or a bit more no.
不管怎样，我们不会。
Anyway, we won't
我们不会去那里。
go we won't go down there.
龙。
Ron.
我们不会去
We won't go
那里。
down there.
如果你不守规矩，会被踢出播客。
It'll be kicked off the podcast if you don't behave.
当然，关于文化大革命，其中一件事就是不守规矩，这确实是核心，因为一个主要观点是它给了人们反抗权威的机会。
Absolute well, of course, there one of things the about the Cultural Revolution, of course, was misbehavior was absolutely the center of it because one of the major points was that it gave people a chance to kick back against authority.
所以，回答你关于是什么激励了18岁，也许还有17岁和16岁年轻人的问题，多米尼克，
So to answer your question, Dominic, about, you know, what is it that motivates 18 year olds and maybe 17 year olds and 16 year olds too?
当国家领导人告诉你，你最重要的事就是告诉那些自以为比你优越、自以为比你懂得更多的所有人，
Being told by the ruler of the country that the most important thing you have to do is tell all the people who think they're so superior, they know more than you, they can
告诉他们的老师更多。
tell more than their teachers.
对吧？
Right?
尤其是他们的老师。
Especially their teachers.
特别是他们的老师。
Particularly their teachers.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
或者在毛泽东的情况下，是政治局的其他成员。
Or in the case of Mao, other members of the Politburo.
我的意思是，同样的观点被用在了相当不同的层面上。
I mean, the same point is being used at a rather different level.
换句话说，自1949年以来这十七年间逐渐形成的权威结构必须被推翻。
That in other words, the structures of authority that have built up over the last, whatever, seventeen years at that point since 1949 have to be overturned.
这就是动机。
That's the motivation.
然后，如果你想想在基层可能激发人们反抗的是什么，就想想那些在任何社会中普遍驱动人们的各种因素。
And then if you think about at the grassroots what it is that might motivate people to rebel, think about all the things that essentially animate, you know, most people in any society.
在社会中较贫困的地区，有些人觉得革命并没有给他们带来好的待遇。
In the more impoverished parts of society, there were people who felt that the revolution hadn't given them a good deal.
你知道，他们以为生活会发生变化，但实际上并没有太大的改变。
You know, they thought that life was gonna change and actually didn't change all that much all that much.
他们没有得到更好的工作，也没有当上工厂的班组长。
They didn't get that better job or they didn't get the factory foreman's position.
在这一特定情况下，有很多理由让人对上层精英心生怨恨。
Lots of reasons to be resentful against the next level of the elite above you in that particular, particular case.
除此之外，社会中还存在着长期遗留的裂痕。
Beyond that, you also have the very long lasting existing fissures in society.
让我给你举一个例子。
Let me let me give you one example.
这一直让我非常着迷，但很难明确说明，因为它涉及一些在中国人看来非常敏感的话题。
It's one that's always fascinated me, and it's been it's one it's one that's sort of hard to pin down because it involves talking about things that people are very, sensitive about it in China.
但既然我们不在中国，我就更明确地表达这个观点。
But, know, since we're not in China, I will, you know, make the point more explicitly here.
所以，在中国西南部，比如成都、重庆以及四川周边的城市，很多人曾与前政权——即蒋介石领导的国民党——有关联，直到1949年他们被主要驱逐到台湾。
So lots of people in, let's say, Southwest China, cities like Chengdu, Chongqing down there in Sichuan province and surrounding, had been associated with the predecessor, party, the nationalist party, the Kuomintang, which Chiang Kai shek had run until they were mostly, you know, kicked out kicked out to Taiwan in 1949.
但当然，绝大多数支持国民党的中国人并没有机会去台湾。
But, of course, the vast majority of Chinese who had supported the Kuomintang did not get to go to Taiwan.
大约有两三百万人去了台湾，但还有数百万人不得不留在中国。
That was, about two or 3,000,000 people who did that, but millions of others had to remain behind in China.
其中许多人受到了非常恶劣的对待，部分原因是因为他们被认为出身于不良阶级，但这逐渐变成了一种世袭式的歧视。
And many of them essentially, you know, were treated very badly, not least because they were thought to come from bad class backgrounds, but it became a sort of hereditary thing.
所以，你可能是个前国民党的官员，因此受到不公对待，但这也意味着你的孩子也会遭到同样的对待。
So, you know, you might be a former nationalist official and be treated badly, but it also meant that your kids would be treated badly.
他们在高中时期就处于一种边缘化的状态，被视为与主流运动有些疏离，不完全属于这个事业的核心。
And they would have grown up in high school essentially at a level at which, you know, they would be regarded as a slightly alien, slightly, you know, not at the center of the of the project.
因此，当这些人在17岁时被告知，是时候彻底反抗你所被灌输的一切时，
So for those people being told at the age of 17, it's time to basically kick back against everything you've been told.
这就导致了一种奇特的现象：在许多地方，那些最激进的所谓造反派群体——即反抗社会结构的群体——实际上恰恰来自过去被视为‘黑’或‘反动’的阶级背景。
It led to the bizarre phenomenon by which in many places, the most, red of the the so called rebel groups, the ones who are pushing back against the the social structures, actually came from class backgrounds that previously would have been regarded as dark or black or, inappropriate in in in some ways.
之所以如此，是因为有整整一群人数以百万计的人，他们对现有体制有着充分的理由感到怨恨，正迫切寻找任何借口来推翻它。
And the reasons for that was that there was this whole group of people, millions of them, who had very good reason to be resentful against the existing structure and were just looking for any excuse basically to, to overturn it.
学生对抗老师，工人对抗管理者。
Students with their teachers, workers with their managers.
文化大革命初期，这一过程有多残酷？
How how brutal is this process in the opening weeks of of the Cultural Revolution?
毛泽东统治时期最残酷的一些行为，尽管他目睹过许多暴行，却恰恰发生在文化大革命的第一阶段。
Some of the most brutal acts seen under the rule of Mao Zedong, and he saw plenty of brutal acts going on, took place during the first phase of the Cultural Revolution.
或许最著名的例子是所谓的‘飞机姿势’，这种做法通常涉及将教师、官僚或任何被视为需要被‘打倒’的人，押到一群可能狂喊怒骂的人群前游街示众，而这些人此前正是你所掌控的对象。
The one that perhaps has become the most famous is what's known as the airplane position because it basically involves being paraded if you were a teacher or a bureaucrat or someone who's regarded as being needing to be cut down to size in front of a probably screaming crowd of people who you'd previously been in control of.
可能是学生，也可能是工厂工人，不管是谁。
Could be schoolchildren, could be factory workers, whatever.
这群人会被强迫站在舞台上。
And a group of such people would be forced to stand on a stage.
他们脖子上可能挂着牌子，上面写着：‘我是资产阶级倒退分子。'
They might have signs placed around their neck saying, you know, I'm a bourgeois backslider.
我是蛇妖。
I'm a snake demon.
我是牛妖。
I'm a cow demon.
这些听起来有点迷信的术语，实际上在当时被用来攻击人。
One of these rather superstitious sounding terms that actually were used to, attack people during that time.
然后他们被迫双臂完全伸展地站着。
But they were then forced to stand with their hands outstretched to their full length.
看起来有点像一架飞机的吉祥物。
So looking a little bit like a a kind of mascot of an aeroplane.
如果你试着做一下，我的意思是，你在家别长时间尝试，因为这个姿势非常非常痛苦。
And if you try doing that I mean, you know, if you try this at home, don't try it for very long because it's a very, very painful position to be in.
当然，如果你开始觉得有点酸痛，可以坐下来揉揉胳膊，这没问题。
Obviously, it's fine if you start to get a bit sore and you can just sit down and rub your arms.
但如果你被迫一动不动地站在那里好几个小时，周围的人冲你尖叫、辱骂，说你是世界上最坏的人，而你根本无法移动或稍微扭动一下，那真是极其痛苦的折磨。
But if you're being forced to stand there for hours and hours on end while people are screaming at you and shouting at you and telling you're the worst person in the world, while you're unable to move or or basically, wriggle, at all, It's an absolutely torturous position to be in.
飞机姿势成为最广为人知的酷刑形式之一。
The airplane position became one of the best known forms of of torture.
我认为，没有必要回避这个术语，尤其是在向那些需要被再教育的教师、官员和其他社会成员传授修正主义教育内容时。
I think there's no reason to to avoid that term in terms of how the lessons, the revisionist lessons, were supposed to be taught to these, teachers and bureaucrats and others in society who needed to be reeducated.
对。
Right.
我觉得，这确实是一个令人不安且充满威胁的时刻，或许我们该暂停一下，来点资本主义。
I think I think that, I mean, that's a kind of unsettling and menacing moment, which we should perhaps take a break for a bit of capitalism.
当你吸收完你的资本主义剂量后，请回来，我们将继续深入探讨文化大革命的更深层内容。
And when you've had your dose of capitalism, please come back, and we will plunge into the absolute more of the Cultural Revolution.
我们几分钟后见。
We'll see you back in a few minutes.
本集由Folio Society赞助播出，这里是读书俱乐部的Tabby和Dominic，Goal Hanger的最新节目。
This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society, and it's Tabby and Dominic here from The Book Club, goal hanger's latest show.
现在，Tabby，你知道，有些书你只读一遍，但还有一些书你特别喜欢反复阅读。
Now, Tabby, as you know, there are some books that you read once, but there are others you especially return to again and again.
那种类型的书，确实值得流传下去，对吧？
And those second kind of books, they really deserve to last, don't they?
这正是Folio Society所做的。
That's what the Folio Society does.
他们是一家总部位于伦敦的独立员工所有制出版社。
They are an independent employee owned publisher based in London.
每本书都配有特别委托创作的精美插图，以及专门撰写的导言，帮助读者理解故事的背景。
Every book is produced with specially commissioned beautiful artwork and specially commissioned introduction that puts the story in its context.
Folio Society出版我们热爱的书籍，从勃朗特到狄更斯，从玛格丽特·阿特伍德到汤姆·霍兰德。
Folio Society publishes the books we love, from Bronte to Dickens, from Margaret Atwood to Tom Holland.
这些书本身就能让人感受到艺术品的气质。
The books can feel like works of art in their own right.
它们以文本为核心，致力于呈现那些经久不衰的故事，制作成能够长久保存的书籍。
They're built around the text, the stories that last in books that are made to last.
如果一个故事很重要，就该好好保存它。
If a story matters, keep it properly.
请访问 foliosociety.com/thebookclub。
Find it at foliosociety.com/thebookclub.
网址是 foliosociety.com/thebookclub。
That's foliosociety.com/thebookclub.
令人反感的不是粪便本身，而是你自己的意识形态。
What stinks is not so much the excrement as your own ideology.
这是红卫兵对北京大学清洁工的描述，他们抱怨不得不清理大量响应毛主席号召涌向北京的学生留下的排泄物。
That was the red guards to cleaners at Beijing University who complained having to clean up after the huge numbers of students who had flocked to Beijing on the invitation of Chairman Mao.
大学厕所里堆积的粪便量太大，导致所有马桶都堵塞了。
And the sheer volume of excrement deposited into the university toilets had made them all seize up.
拉纳，你之前提到过。
And, Rana, you you talked earlier.
你提到了爱丁堡公爵奖计划。
You can you you made illusion to the Duke of Edinburgh scheme.
汤姆，那里显然有联系。
An obvious connection there, Tom.
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显然。
Clearly.
对。
Yeah.
从某种意义上说，对学生而言，这一切确实非常有趣，因为在文化大革命初期，毛泽东确实发出邀请，号召全中国的学生前往北京。
Well, there is a slight sense in which for students, this is all, I mean, huge fun because he in the early weeks of of the Cultural Revolution, Mao basically issues an invitation, doesn't he, to students from across China to come to Beijing?
他对于前来的人数之多感到震惊。
And he's astounded by how many turn up.
大约一百万人，是吗，Rana？
About a million people, is it, Rana?
这有夸大其词吗？
Is that an exaggeration?
没有。
No.
实际上更多，随着时间推移，人数超过了那个数字。
It's more I don't It's it's it's more than that over time.
在高峰期，有一百万人能够挤进北京中心的天安门广场，甚至还能安排到角落和侧街等地。
It's a million who can fit at its height into Tiananmen Square in the center of Beijing, manage to get, you know, get them in the corners and the side streets and so forth, as well.
但不，这确实是一个令人震惊的现象。
But, no, it's an absolutely astonishing phenomenon.
顺便说一下，那个关于需要清理粪便的通知。
By the way, that that that that notice about needing to clean up the the the excrement.
我想，如果这变成一首西方乐队的歌，大概会叫《反抗厕所》。
I guess if, if it would turn into a western band, it would be called rage against the latrine.
哦，太棒了。
Oh, very good.
非常好。
Very good.
非常好。
Very good.
我只是觉得必须得提一下这个。
Just thought I had to get that one in.
有一个章节标题正等着被写出来。
There's there's there's a chapter title waiting to be written.
我得说，毛主席非常喜爱一个关于便便的笑话。
I have to say Chairman Mao dearly loved a, a poo joke.
他非常热衷于粪便幽默，并且广泛使用，顺便也提一下。
He was very, very keen on on fecal humor and, used it extensively, just just also throwing that in there.
有一种现象叫做春联。
There's a phenomenon called chunlian.
它字面意思就是交换。
It literally just means exchange.
但对于现在在中国、年龄在六七十岁甚至八十岁的人——也就是在文化大革命期间还是青少年或年轻男女的人来说，如果他们没有受到迫害，这种‘串连’交换可能是他们最深刻的记忆。
But for people who are now in China in, let's say, their sixties, seventies, eighties, in other words, people who were teenagers or relatively, you know, young men and women during the Cultural Revolution, this phenomenon, chuanlian exchange, is probably the thing that they remember most strongly if they weren't persecuted.
因为这几乎是许多年轻人第一次有机会——虽然不是真正去看世界，但至少去看中国、彼此交流。
Because it was basically the first chance that many of these young people had to essentially not not exactly see the world, but to see China and to talk to each other.
在文化大革命期间，中国政府为他们提供了全国范围内的免费火车票。
Train travel was made free for them throughout China during the period of the Cultural Revolution.
这简直就像是世界上最具意识形态的欧洲青年铁路通票旅客。
It was like basically the world's most ideological interrail passer.
我现在谈论欧洲青年铁路通票，说明我确实老了，因为前几天有人提醒我，如今的年轻人都是坐飞机出行的，前提是他们真的被允许去任何地方。
Now I'm show I'm I'm I'm showing my age by talking about interrail because as someone pointed out to me the other day, these days young people fly, assuming they're actually allowed to to to travel anywhere.
但本质上，中国的年轻人被赋予了免费乘坐火车的特权，如果情况真的变得糟糕，厕所可能也惨不忍睹，他们就只是四处闲逛、互相交流。
But, essentially, you know, China's youth were given this free pass to get on trains, and probably leave the toilets pretty horrific as well if it came came came to that, And just basically hang out with each other.
他们会吃吃喝喝。
You know, they would eat and drink.
他们会结识来自全国各地的人。
They would meet people from all over the country.
这是一段令人惊叹的经历。
It was an astonishing experience.
这给了他们一个机会，去了解自己是谁，了解自己的革命同伴是谁。
It was a chance for them to basically learn about who they were, who their revolutionary counterparts were.
当然，作为这一切的延伸，他们还会前往北京，在近乎神坛般的毛泽东主席像前顶礼膜拜。
And then, of course, as a combination, go up to Beijing where they would essentially worship at the near godlike altar of Chairman Mao, Mao Zedong.
所以，你提到的那些数十万、上百万的集会，多米尼克，确实如此。
And so these gatherings in hundreds of thousands of millions that you're you're talking about, Dominic, absolutely.
如果你足够幸运，经常能参加其中一场与毛泽东有关的大型集会，或许远远地看到他站在最末端挥手，穿着标志性的绿色红卫兵制服——这与所有年轻红卫兵被要求穿着的绿色军装相呼应。
On a regular basis, if you were really lucky, you would get into one of those mass rallies with Mao, perhaps this sort of very distant figure right at the end, you could see sort of waving, wearing, of course, a green red guard uniform in, sympathy with the green drab uniforms that all of these young, red guards were supposed to to wear.
请容我解释一下，'红卫兵'（红卫兵）这个词泛指那些成为毛主席近乎私人卫队的年轻人群。
And bear with me, this term red guard, Hong Wei Bing, was the one that was generically used for all the sort of young people who became chairman Mao's, you know, almost personal red guard.
但这一运动的初衷也是将社会军事化。
But the idea was also that it was a militarization of society.
换句话说，你必须把自己视为士兵，而不是学生、学者或店员。
In other words, you had to think of yourself not as a student, not as a scholar, not as a shop worker, but as a soldier.
这些年轻队伍来到北京中心广场聚集时，他们被彻底改变了。
And these young troops coming and gathering in the, you know, the square at the heart of Beijing, They were transformed.
这是一次宗教般的体验。
It was a religious experience.
无法用其他方式来形容。
There's no other way to describe it.
有一个令人惊叹的案例，记录了一位年轻人参加了其中一场集会。
There's one amazing case recorded of a young man who, you know, goes to one of these rallies.
他深受感动，在笔记本上写道：今天，我第一次见到了毛主席。
He's so moved that he writes in his his notebook, today, I saw Chairman Mao for the first time.
我改变了我的人生，把今天定为我的生日。
I have changed my life to make today my birthday.
换句话说，这是一个近乎基督教式的重生故事，但显然，这种神学并非基督教的。
In other words, that is a story of rebirth in an almost Christian sort of way, except, obviously, this this theology is not Christian.
关于这种崇拜行为。
Just on the the worshiping.
我的意思是，我知道我跳过了好几年，但我只想读一段非凡的记载。
I mean, I know I'm jumping ahead by a couple of years, but I just wanted to read an extraordinary thing.
所以，1968年，毛泽东收到了巴基斯坦外长送的40个芒果，对吧？
So so Mao was given 40 mangoes, wasn't he, in 1968 by the Pakistani foreign minister.
其中一个芒果被送到了北京的一家纺织厂。
And one of the mangoes was sent to the Beijing textile factory.
我只是在读。
And I'm just reading.
工人朗读毛泽东的语录，庆祝这份礼物。
Workers read out quotations from Mao and celebrated the gift.
人们搭起了祭坛，以醒目地展示这些水果。
Altars were erected to display the fruit prominently.
几天后，当芒果皮开始腐烂时，人们将芒果剥皮并煮在一锅水里。
When the mango peel began to rot after a few days, the fruit was peeled and boiled in a pot of water.
然后工人依次走过，每人分得一勺芒果水。
Workers then filed by, and each was given a spoonful of mango water.
我可以读到更多关于这芒果事件的内容，比如在全国各地的工厂中制作芒果的复制品等等。
And I could read much more about this mango business, creation of replicas of mangoes sent to factories around the country and so on.
我的意思是，这明显是一种宗教圣物。
I mean, that's clearly a religious relic.
我在想，汤姆一定会喜欢这个问题，所以我替他问了，好让他别再说了。
And I'm just wondering, Tom will love this question, so I thought I'd ask it instead of him to stop him talking.
所以，拉娜，这种行为背后有多少是宗教冲动的成分呢？
So, Rana, how much is there a kind of religious impulse behind this?
因为，当然了，摧毁堕落、罪恶旧世界的圣物，树立新的神祇，这一切，我觉得不仅像新教改革，甚至像阿肯那顿时期。
Because, of course, the smashing of relics of the of the depraved, sinful old world, the erection of new gods, all of that, I mean, that feels very, you know, not just Protestant Reformation, but Akhenaten.
这感觉像是深深植根于人类历史中的某种东西。
It feels like something that is deeply rooted in human history.
听好了，多米尼克。
Look, Dominic.
没错。
That's right.
完全正确。
It's absolutely right.
它在表现方式上确实非常宗教化。
It is very, very religious in the way in which it manifests itself.
实际上，它的一个很有成效的方面是，为人类学家提供了研究素材，毕竟他们研究宗教等议题。
And, actually, one of the ways in which it's been very productive is for anthropologists, who, of course, study religion amongst other things.
而关于毛泽东‘旅行的芒果’这一现象的分析，是由人类学家赵亚当精彩撰写的，如果人们想深入了解毛泽东神圣芒果及其在中国各地传播这一奇特现象，我强烈推荐阅读他的作品。
And that analysis of Mao's traveling mangos, as he puts it, is written brilliantly by the anthropologist Adam Chao, who I'd highly recommend if people want to read more about that particularly bizarre phenomenon of the holy mangos of Mao and how they how they moved around China.
但值得花一点时间思考我们这里谈论的是一种什么样的宗教，因为，正如马克斯·韦伯所说，中国宗教本质上是一种高度融合的体系。
But it's worth thinking for a second what kind of religion we're talking about here because, of course, the religion of China, to quote Max Weber for a moment there, the the sociologist, is a very syncretic thing.
中国宗教传统中的许多不同元素，都融入了我们在文化大革命中所看到的这种对毛泽东的崇拜之中。
And many different aspects of that Chinese religious tradition come into this sort of Mao worship that we see in the Cultural Revolution.
首先，这其中包含基督教的元素，因为自十九世纪中期以来，基督教传教士一直在中国扮演着核心角色。
So first of all, there is a Christian element because, of course, Christian missionaries had been a very central presence to China ever since the mid nineteenth century.
而更早的一场革命——十九世纪晚期的太平天国运动，其基础正是南方一位男子的妄想，他自认为是耶稣的弟弟。
And, of course, a much earlier revolution, the Taiping revolution of the late nineteenth century, was based on, you know, essentially the delusions of a man who thought he was Jesus' younger brother in Southern China.
因此，基督教千禧年主义及其充满激情的政治传统在中国有着深厚的历史渊源。
So that tradition of Christian millenarianism and kind of exuberant politics has a history there.
但这些传统在佛教中也同样源远流长。
But, also, these traditions go back in Buddhism as well.
佛教当然可以是一种关于和平、涅槃与内省的宗教，但它也可以是一种极具千禧年主义色彩的运动，在十八、十九世纪的许多时候，它为政治激进团体提供了崛起的机会，他们利用‘西方圣母即将归来’、‘是时候为她拿起武器’等观念来动员广大民众。
Buddhism, of course, is a religion can be a religion of peace and, nirvana and introspection, but it can also be a highly millenarian sort of enterprise, which at many points, certainly in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, gave opportunities essentially for politically radical groups to rise up and use the idea that, you know, the queen mother of the West was coming back and it was time to, you know, take up arms on on her behalf as a means of mobilizing the wider population.
所有这些宗教传统都融入了文化大革命所创造的体系中。
And all those religious traditions sit in what is created in the Cultural Revolution.
但最后还有一点要补充，因为要理解文化大革命的性质，你必须认识到，如果没有一定程度的民众热情去接受和推动，这些事情根本无法实现。
But one thing to add finally to that, because I think it's important to get an understanding the nature of the Cultural Revolution, You can't do any of these things unless you have some level of popular enthusiasm that wants to take it up.
二十世纪早期，中国出现了各种相当乏味的政治运动。
Early in the twentieth century, you get various quite sterile political movements in China.
有一个叫做新生活运动的运动，蒋介石试图推行它。
There's a thing called the New Life Movement, which Chiang Kai shek tries to implement.
尤其是，汤姆，你知道这一点，因为你曾在最近一本精彩著作中读到过。
Not least, as you will know, Tom, because you read it in one of your recent brilliant books.
蒋介石当然是中国历史上唯一一位高层基督教领袖，他既是卫理公会教徒，又信奉儒家和某种程度的佛教，这种组合颇为独特。
Chiang Kai shek, of course, is the only Christian leader that, China's ever had at the top level because he was a Methodist as well as being a Confucian and, somewhat Buddhist, which was an interesting combination.
他在二十世纪三十年代试图通过所谓的‘新生活运动’实现道德复兴，这场运动带有浓厚的基督教色彩，但最终彻底失败了。
His attempt to try and have a sort of moral revival in nineteen thirties China with what he called the new life movement, which has a very Christian feel to it, it was just a flop.
它没有成功。
It didn't take off.
人们根本就不买账。
People didn't buy it at all.
而文化大革命却以一种高度政治化的意识形态语言和宗教语言相结合的方式（正如我们之前讨论的），在民众中迅速蔓延开来。
Whereas the Cultural Revolution put forward in a combination of highly political ideological language and religious language, as we've been talking about, takes off like wildfire amongst the population.
在那个时期，它确实广受欢迎。
It's genuinely popular during that period.
但对我来说，这仍然显得很奇怪。
But it still it still seems strange to me.
所以我们有几个问题想问一下。
So we've got a couple of questions on this.
我们提一下海明威。
We've got Hemingway.
文化大革命看起来如此彻底激进。
The cultural revolution seems so utterly radical.
它是中国文化独有的吗？
Is it unique to Chinese culture?
然后，问一个显而易见的问题，文化大革命是变革还是延续？
And then super sick to ask the obvious question, was the cultural revolution change or continuity?
中国或其他地方是否存在类似的历史传统？
Is there a tradition of such circumstances in China or elsewhere?
我明白你关于佛教的说法，也听懂了你关于基督教的观点。
And I hear what you're saying about Buddhism, and I hear what you're saying about Christianity.
当然，马克思主义本身也深深植根于基督教传统中的末世论诉求和自我净化理念。
And I of course, Marxism itself is very much in the kind of Christian tradition of apocalyptic demands for change and self purification.
因此，这显然是其中关键的一部分。
So that's also clearly a crucial part of it.
但中国仍然是一个极其古老的国家。
But still, China is a country that is fabulously ancient.
它的文明传统上一直以尊重长者、传承经典为核心。
Its civilization is one that has traditionally been rooted in respect for elders, for the inheritance of the classics.
我不懂中文，但根据我阅读的资料，汉语是一种极其微妙、细腻的语言，而高声喊口号的做法与它的传统格格不入。
I I don't speak Chinese, but from what I gather reading about Chinese, it's an incredibly subtle nuanced language that in which the the blaring of slogans is quite alien to its traditions.
作为一个对中国文化非常不了解的人，但确实让人觉得奇怪，中国作为所有文明中的一员，竟然产生了如此彻底反传统的运动。
Speaking as someone very ignorant of Chinese culture, but it does seem odd that China, of all the civilizations, should have produced this incredibly iconoclastic movement.
汤姆，针对这一点，我想说两点。
Let me say two things off the back of that, Tom.
第一点是关于文化大革命作为政治现象的独特性或非独特性。
The first is about the uniqueness or otherwise of the Cultural Revolution as a political phenomenon.
我认为这里存在一种论点。
And I think there is an argument.
这一点必须非常、非常谨慎地提出，因为作为历史学家，我们都清楚，即使某些事情看似是第一次发生，实际上也很少真的是首次。
This should be said very, very carefully because, you know, as historians, we all know that very few things are ever done for the first time even when they're done for the first time.
但如果你看看关于这一主题的伟大著作之一——哈佛已故学者罗德里克·麦克法夸尔和位于瑞典的迈克尔·舍恩霍兰合著的《毛泽东的最后一场革命》，这本书基于大量翔实的文献资料。
But if you look at one of the great books on this subject, is Mao's Last Revolution by, Roderick Macfarqua, the late Harvard scholar, and Michael Schoenhollands, who's, based in in Sweden, you know, based on a fantastic weight of documentary experience.
在几乎第一页，他们就提出，文化大革命实际上是一种独特现象。
And pretty much on the first page, they argue that actually the Cultural Revolution is a unique phenomenon.
在其他任何共产主义社会中，甚至可能在任何其他社会中，都没有发生过类似的现象，因为它涉及由该政党领袖亲自领导，推翻他自己的现有官僚共产主义体系。
No such phenomenon took place in any other communist society and probably not in any other society either because it involves the overthrow of an existing bureaucratic communist order by the leader of that party, against itself, so to speak.
我的意思是，这是一系列非常非常奇特的状况的结合。
I mean, it's it's it's it's a very, very odd combination of circumstances.
但话虽如此，我要提一个历史先例，我认为这能解释为什么中国——正如你正确指出的——会转向反对自己的过去。
But having said that, I am gonna mention a historical precedent, which I think does provide some of the reasons that China, as opposed to any other country, as you rightly pointed out, should have this turn against its own past.
这个先例来自一个毛泽东在20世纪早期的中国非常清楚的现象，它帮助塑造了他。
And that comes from a phenomenon that actually Mao was very aware of because it helped to make him in the early twentieth century in China.
那就是五四运动，得名于1919年5月4日发生在今天天安门广场所在地、紫禁城外的一场学生示威。
That was the May 4 movement, named after a student demonstration that took place just outside, actually, just outside the Forbidden City in the center of Beijing where Tiananmen Square now is on 05/04/1919.
我不会详细展开讲这个。
Now I won't go into huge detail about this.
我 elsewhere 已经写过相关内容。
I've written about it elsewhere.
但本质上，这是一场民族主义的学生示威，抗议当时中国在世界上软弱无力，正被外部的帝国主义者和内部的军阀剥削，同时主张所谓‘德先生’和‘赛先生’必须来到中国，彻底改造它。
But, essentially, it's a nationalist student demonstration that protests against China's weakness in the world at that point when it's being exploited by, as they put it, imperialists from outside and warlords from inside, and instead advocated that, as they put it, mister science and mister democracy needed to come to China and basically transform it.
在五四运动以及相关的新文化运动中，出现了一种现象：许多中国年轻知识分子，包括当时还很年轻的毛泽东，开始审视自己的过去。
And in that movement, in the May fourth movement and the associated new culture movement, you have a phenomenon in which a lot of China's young intellectuals, including Mao, who's very young at that time, look at their own past.
他们审视儒家哲学。
They look at the philosophy of Confucianism.
他们审视中国的宗教传统。
They look at the religious traditions of China.
他们审视中国过去的一切，并问：这给我们带来了什么？
They look at what's come from China's past and say, what has this given us?
我们身处二十世纪初，看到英国人到处贩卖鸦片。
We're sitting here in the early twentieth century, and we see, you know, the British are selling opium all over the place.
你知道，外国人在中国境内肆意横行。
They you know, foreigners are running riots in our country.
整个国家，你知道，我们推翻了最后一位皇帝。
The entire country we can you know, we overthrew the last emperor.
我们在1912年成为共和国，但整个国家仍陷入内战之中。
We became a republic in 1912, and yet the entire country is driven by internal civil warfare.
那么，为什么中国的传统居然还能教给我们什么？
So why on earth should this Chinese tradition have anything to teach us?
因此，与当时其他亚洲民族主义社会（如印度的尼赫鲁和甘地的行动，或日本的明治维新）形成鲜明对比的是，中国的知识分子在许多情况下选择了极为激进的道路——决定彻底 reject 掉他们儒家哲学传统的几乎所有方面。
And as a result, and in contrast with other Asian nationalist societies at that time, such as, you know, the actions of Nehru and Gandhi in India or the Meiji restoration in Japan, China's intellectuals, in many cases, take the very radical path of deciding they're gonna reject almost everything about their Confucian philosophical past.
二十世纪初的伟大作家鲁迅撰写了大量短篇小说，指控儒家思想与食人主义无异。
The the great early twentieth century writer Liu Xun basically wrote short stories accusing Confucianism of being the same as cannibalism.
他的指控非常强烈。
He's really, really strong indictment.
所有这些运动——五四运动，以及这种反传统、反儒家的思想——都在毛泽东的脑海中萦绕，而他本人对这一传统极为反对。
Now all of this movement, the May fourth movement, all of this anti traditional, anti Confucian thought would have been running around in the mind of Mao who was fiercely fiercely opposed to that tradition.
当五十年后进入文化大革命时期，毛泽东完全掌控了国家，他可能觉得问题不在于五四运动否定了传统，而在于它没有彻底到足以清除传统的一切方面。
And when you get to the Cultural Revolution fifty years later, at a time when Mao is in complete control of the country, having that sense that maybe the problem was not that the May fourth movement had rejected tradition, but it hadn't gone quite far enough in removing every single aspect of it.
这或许让他回想起五十年前自己还是湖南年轻激进分子时未竟的事业。
Might have felt like the unfinished business of fifty years previously when he was a young radical man in Hunan province.
因此，本质上，正是中华文明的古老性引发了对它的强烈反弹。
So essentially, it's the very antiquity of Chinese civilization that generates the kind of explosive reaction against it.
在那些想要彻底摧毁它的人心中，答案是肯定的。
In the minds of those who wanted to tear it down, the answer is is yes.
如果你回过头去看毛泽东早期的著作，当他没有写一些关于个人锻炼计划和臀部推举的内容时，他还写了一系列文章，激烈地探讨了一位名叫赵女士的年轻女性，她因被迫接受一段自己不愿接受的婚姻而自杀。
If you think about, again, going back to to Mao's early writings, when he's not writing about sort of personal exercise plans and and and for for for buttock thrusts, he also wrote a series of essays, very kind of fiercely argued and felt about a young woman called miss Zhao, who basically took her own life because she was being forced into a marriage she didn't want to to accept.
毛泽东用这个例子比喻当时中国社会——儒家社会——就像一个铁笼，根本无法逃脱。
And Mao used this metaphor of, you know, the Chinese society at the time, the Confucian society, being a sort of iron cage, which was impossible to, break out of.
我提到过的作家鲁迅也使用了类似的隐喻——铁屋子。
Lucian, the writer I've mentioned, used a similar sort of metaphor, the iron house.
但核心思想是一样的。
But the idea was the same.
换句话说，束缚中国的传统和过去的力量是如此强大。
In other words, that the forces of tradition, the forces of the past that were binding China were so strong.
我的意思是，铁这个隐喻表明，你必须采取激进的手段。
I mean, iron is that metaphor, that you had to do something radical.
你必须打破它们。
You had to break them.
你必须熔化它们。
You had to melt them.
你必须砸碎它们。
You had to smash them.
它们不会因为你轻轻挣扎一下就自动让路。
They weren't gonna simply give way because you sort of gently wiggled your way out.
这种心态，我认为解释了为什么最终演变为文化大革命的那些愤怒和激进的拒斥。
And that mindset, I think, explains a lot of the anger and, you know, radical rejection that you see in what ultimately becomes the Cultural Revolution.
拉纳，你提到你用了‘食人’这个词，我不知道你是不是有意用的，但你之前确实用了这个词。
Rana, you mentioned you used the word I don't know whether you used it deliberately, but you used the word cannibalism earlier on.
我想借此机会谈一谈，我们已经讨论了很多背后的思想，但还有那赤裸裸的暴力。
And I wanted to give some so, you know, we've talked a lot about the ideas behind it, but the the sheer violence.
我知道我们把很多年的事情混为一谈了，这可能是不对的。
Now I know we're we're sort of conflating many years into into a into a single thing, probably wrongly.
比如广西这个地方，据我所知，在文化大革命期间发生了大量仪式性的食人行为——人们吃掉那些被定为阶级敌人的内脏、心脏、生殖器等等。
You know, you have a place like I think is it Guangxi, where there are there is there are what to my mind seems a colossal amount of ritual cannibalism as part of the Cultural Revolution, people eating the hearts, the livers, the genitals of those who have been disgraced as identified as class enemies and and all that sort of thing.
这离北京可就太远了。
I mean, this is a long way from Beijing,
不是吗？
isn't it?
这是有等级的，对吧？
It's hierarchical, isn't it?
最高层的革命者能得到心脏和肝脏，是的。
That the top revolutionaries kind of get the, the heart and the liver Yeah.
而工人只能啃点腿肉。
And the the workers just get to peck on bits of leg.
这离北京可远着呢。
And and this is a long way from Beijing.
它位于中国最南端，相隔数百英里。
It's in the it's hundreds of miles away in the far South of China.
所以这似乎是一种自下而上的情况。
So that seems to be kind of bottom up, as it were.
那里到底发生了什么？
What's going on there?
是什么解释了这种纯粹的——好吧。
What explains the sheer okay.
所以我能理解，你知道，学生们喜欢他们能去北京这件事。
So I can understand, you know, students like the fact that they can go to Beijing.
他们可以乘坐火车旅行。
They can do train travel.
他们可以挑战自己的老师。
They can have a go at their teachers.
这一切在心理上都完全说得通。
That all makes complete psychological sense.
但暴力的极端残酷性，该如何解释呢？
But the sheer ferocity of the violence, what explains that?
那我们先来看食人现象的例子。
So let's take the cannibalism example first.
广西地区，正如你所说，位于中国的西南边远地区。
Guangxi province, as you say, you know, the sort of far Southwest of China.
你所提到的大部分证据来自一本名为《红祭》的书，作者是化名为郑义的中国研究者，我认为他出于充分的理由没有公开自己的姓名。
Much of the evidence that you're talking about comes from, I think, a book called Scarlet Memorial by this pseudonymously named Zheng Yi, a Chinese researcher who I think didn't, for good reasons, want to give his his name.
我认为，至少书中部分内容是准确的，这一点没有理由怀疑。
And I think there's no reason to think that at least some portion of what's written there is not accurate.
确实有记录显示，在其他时期也有人表现出极端行为。
There are certainly cases that have been recorded there and other times of people engaging extreme behavior.
值得注意的是，食人这一概念作为一种象征，在中国文化中根深蒂固。
It's worth noting that cannibalism as an idea, as a trope, is something that sits very, very, you know, deeply in Chinese culture.
无论你阅读哪个时期的记载，从明朝甚至更早的宋朝开始，每当中国陷入严重混乱、灾难降临之时，人们被迫或主动食人的描述便反复出现，成为人性最终堕入极端的象征。
Whenever you read accounts, you know, way back into dynastic history, the Ming dynasty and, you know, even before that Song dynasty of when things had gone horribly wrong, when chaos had come to China, the idea that people have been forced to eat each other or chosen to eat each other recurs over and over again, as an image of humanity finally finding itself at its ultimate extreme.
这些记载中有多少是字面意义上的，往往并不明确。
How many of those are meant to be literal is not always clear.
这并不意味着它们不是真实的，但我们也必须理解，这在某种程度上是一种文学性的表达。
It doesn't mean that they're not, but it does also mean that one has to sort of understand that it's sort of a literary
术语
term
也是如此。
as well.
但更重要的观点是，我认为这是一个非常重要的点。
But the the the wider point, I think, is is is is is an important one.
首先，你提到我所提及的作者实际上将食人这一概念用作对儒家思想的隐喻。
And first of all, you you mentioned that, that you shouldn't, the author I've mentioned, did use the idea of cannibalism as a metaphor in his case, actually, for Confucianism.
在这种情况下，这显然是极端反儒家的。
In this case, of course, it's the ultimate anti Confucianism.
这也引出了一个问题：人们是否会彼此实施极其非凡的暴力行为？
It does also bring up the idea of do people commit utterly extraordinary acts of violence against each other?
关于这一点，我认为毫无疑问，没有任何争议。
On that, I think, you know, the case is absolutely clear and and and, you know, without any dispute.
我举的例子是，从潜在后果来看，它甚至更令人恐惧——如果你能想象这种事的话——那就是在中国西南的一些城市，当地青年闯入地方军械库和军营，劫持坦克。
The example that I bring up because, again, in some ways, in terms of its potential, outcome, it was almost more terrifying if you can imagine imagine such a thing, which was, again, in some of the cities of the Southwest, the local youth breaking into the, the local arsenal and the the military barracks and hijacking tanks.
这些青少年基本上
And basically, these sort of teenagers having
坦克，哇。
tanks Wow.
这是一场学生抗议。
That is a student protest.
这确实是一场学生抗议，你知道的，而且弹药都是现成的。
That is a student protest, you know, with with with with with the ammunition all provided.
在某些情况下，这最终成了结果。
And this was basically the end result in some case.
在另一种情况下，有证据表明一些红卫兵决定出手制止，类似于今天在乌克兰的情况，他们闯入了一个新的实验站，试图制造自己的原子弹，这或许会以一种非常具象的爆炸方式终结文化大革命。
And in another case, there's some evidence that some of the red guards decided to nip it and, in the shades of today in Ukraine, decided to nip into a new kind of a a a an experimental station and try and make their own nuclear bomb, which would have been perhaps a rather explosive way literally to end the Cultural Revolution.
幸运的是，这并没有发生，但这样的想法确实存在过。
It didn't come to anything, fortunately, but the thought was, was there.
因此，就人们不断挑战所谓合理界限而言，文化大革命提供了大量例子。
So in terms of people really pushing away at the edge of what would have been considered reasonable, the Cultural Revolution has plenty of examples.
我们应该关注一下事态如何发展，因为时间快到了。
We should kind of look to how this plays itself out because we're running out of time.
但本质上，还需要记住的一点是，存在多个派系。
But, essentially, there are the other thing to bear in mind is that there are multiple factions.
所以我们有之前讨论过的红卫兵，也就是学生群体。
So there are we've the Red Guards we've talked about, the students.
党内还有各种派系，共产党内部。
There are various factions within the party, the communist party.
还有军队，对吧？
And then there's the army, isn't there?
后来，军队最终介入，并利用文化大革命将中国转变为某种近似军事独裁的体制。
And in due course, the army essentially steps in and and basically transforms uses the Cultural Revolution to transform China into something approximating to a military dictatorship.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yes.
大致上是对的。
That's broadly right.
我的意思是，如果我们对文化大革命进行分期，第一阶段是从1966年爆发到1969年，这正是人们在新闻纪录片或照片中所熟悉的经典时期，红卫兵，没错。
I mean, if we're going to periodize the Cultural Revolution, the first phase, 1966 when it breaks out to 1969, is the classic phase that people think of in newsreel or photographs, the red card, Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
毛泽东在天安门广场接受一群尖叫着、充满崇拜的青少年的检阅。
Mao, you know, receiving parades of screaming, you know, adoring teenagers in Tiananmen Square.
在那之后，这一阶段基本结束了，因为毛泽东自己也开始意识到，这种状态持续三年可能已经足够，对社会的破坏已经太大了。
That pretty much comes to an end after that when Mao himself becomes to realize that actually three years of this is probably enough in terms of, you know, the destruction of society.
正如你所说，军队一直非常支持这些行动，站在毛泽东一边，最终被派来终止这场运动。
And as you say, army, who are always very much behind, you know, all of these actions and very much on Mao's side, were brought in to shut this down.
但这样一来，军队实际上接管了文化大革命的主导权，而国防部长林彪——他一直紧跟毛泽东——负责执行这一任务。
But that then essentially puts the army in charge of the Cultural Revolution, and Lin Biao, the minister of defense, who, you know, is very much at Mao's side, is in charge of doing that.
随后，高层领导层内部出现了一种动荡。
There's then a sort of up a kind of upheaval within the top leadership.
甚至到现在，我们仍不清楚当时究竟发生了什么。
And even now, don't have the full details of quite what happened.
但到了1971年，突然宣布林彪试图逃离北京，因发动政变反对毛泽东而被推翻，最终在蒙古境外的一次空难中丧生，所有细节都扑朔迷离。
But suddenly, in 1971, it was announced that Lin Biao had tried to sort of flee, Beijing after attempting a coup against Mao and had been overthrown and and died in an air crash in outer Mongolia, all all places.
实际上，他乘坐的是一架英国的三叉戟飞机，如果你想知道具体细节的话。
Actually, in a, a British trident jet, if you want the, the the details.
因此，人们普遍感到高层内部动荡不安，局势究竟会如何收场，尚不明确。
So there is this sort of feeling that actually there's an awful lot of turmoil at the top, and it's not quite clear where it was going to end up.
那也是尼克松访华的讨论正在展开的时期。
That was also the era when the visit of rich Nixon was being discussed.
这同样发生在文化大革命期间。
That's also during the Cultural Revolution.
这也体现了你之前提到的那种派系斗争，汤姆。
And that also show that shows the kind of factionalism that you were talking about there, Tom.
有一个由中国的总理江青领导的派系，他们希望引进美国，因为他们意识到中国不可能永远与西方世界隔绝，而且也需要外国投资。
There's a group led by Joanne Lai, the prime minister of China essentially, who wants to bring in the Americans because he realizes that China can't stay isolated from the Western world forever, And they also need foreign investment.
他们实际上在私下里确实会谈到这一点，作为弥补文化大革命所造成损害的一种方式。
They they actually do talk about that in in private as a means of repairing the damage that's been done by the Cultural Revolution.
然后还有一群人，后来被称为四人帮——毛泽东的妻子江青和另外三人，他们是极端激进派，坚决反对。
And then there's the group known later on, not at the time, but later on as the gang of four, Mao's wife Mao's wife, Jiangqing, and three others who are absolute hardline radicals and say, no.
你们到底在想什么，居然要让美国人进入中国？
What on earth do you think you're talking about letting the Americans into China?
所有这些关于接下来地缘政治走向的宫廷权谋，都在中国更广泛的背景下上演。
So all these palace intrigues about what happens next in geopolitics are going on while in wider China.
虽然街头的公开暴力比红卫兵时期减少了，但私下里仍有许多恩怨被清算，人们被逮捕或处决，本质上正如你所说，在1969年到1976年毛泽东去世这段剩余时期，中国一直处于军事管控之下。
There's less overt violence on the streets in the way that there was in the Red Guard period, but actually lots of scores being settled and, you know, people being either arrested or executed under, essentially, as you say, sort of military control during much of the remaining period from 1969 all the way up to the end of the Cultural Revolution with Mao's death in 1976.
如果我能插一句，我想问一下周恩来。
Just a quick question if I can jump in on Zhu Enlai.
当尼克松访华时，他和基辛格花了很多时间与毛泽东会面，同时也与周恩来相处了很久，他们似乎与周恩来相处得非常好。
So when Nixon comes to China, he and Kissinger spent a lot of time in Mao, and they spent a lot time with Zhu as well, and they they seem to get on very well with Zhu Enlai.
对西方人来说，周恩来看起来像是第二号人物，因为他非常有名。
Zhu Enlai is to to Westerners, he looks like the number two man because he's very well known.
在文化大革命期间，他的养子和养女都被折磨致死。
His adopted son and daughter are both tortured to death while this is going on during the the Cultural Revolution.
我的意思是，作为一个局外人，这种事情发生在自己身上真是荒谬至极。
So, I mean, that's just a bizarre thing to be to be happening to to me as an outsider.
那些在党内、在体制内看似权力极大的人，却只是默默旁观，任由自己的家人被摧毁。
I mean, the people so who appear to be so powerful within within the party, within the apparatus, are are are just sort of meekly standing by while their their their family members are being destroyed.
这已经是红卫兵运动之后的事了。
I mean, that's this is after the Red Guard period.
那么，这究竟是怎么回事呢？
So so what explains all that?
是因为他们太害怕军队，还是害怕因宫廷权斗而失去地位，还是其他原因？
Is that because they're so frightened of the army or frightened of losing their place because of the palace intrigues or what?
还有另一个例子，多米尼克，邓小平后来在1978年之后的改革时期成为中国的最高领导人，他的儿子邓朴方被红卫兵从窗户扔了出去，从此终生瘫痪在轮椅上。
And one other example there, Dominic, Deng Xiaoping, who goes on to become the paramount leader of China during the, reform period from 1978 onwards, his son, Deng Pufang, was chucked out a window by red guards, and he has remained, in a wheelchair for the rest of his, his life.
而邓朴方的父亲邓小平，最终成为了中国的最高统治者。
And, you know, that's Deng Xiaoping who eventually would become the overall ruler of China.
即使你现在去采访那些人，事情依然很难，因为还有很多幸存者，但他们往往不愿详细谈论，要么是因为作为受害者，他们仍感到极度创伤，要么是因为作为施害者——这样的人也不少——他们根本不想谈论五十年前自己做过的事。
It's still hard even when you talk to people, and there are still plenty of them alive, although they're often quite reluctant to to talk in detail either because as victims, they still feel very traumatized or because as perpetrators, and there are plenty of those people too, they really don't wanna talk about what they were doing fifty years ago.
因此，要深入了解人们当时的情感状态，以及他们自认为自己在做什么，是非常困难的。
So it's difficult to get into what you might call the emotional landscape of how people felt and what they thought they were doing.
但针对为什么这些位高权重、人脉广泛的人会基本袖手旁观、无所作为，我认为有两个因素几乎相互抵触。
But in answer to the question of why such senior well connected people might essentially sit back and and do so little, I think there are two factors which almost rub against each other.
其中一个因素是那个时代的不可预测性。
One was the unpredictability of the time.
你根本无法预料，自己何时会突然从政治局高层人物，变成像刘少奇——中华人民共和国主席——这样的人，他被绑架、带走，最终在河南开封一间没有窗户的地下室里，因得不到医疗照顾而死去。
You did not know when you might suddenly shift from being someone who was ranked at the top level in the Politburo to being like Liu Xiaochi, the president of the People's Republic Of China, who was basically, you know, kidnapped, taken off, and left to die of, neglect of his medical condition in a in a windowless basement in the city of Kaifeng in Central China.
那可是中华人民共和国的主席啊。
That was the president of the People's Republic Of China.
你可以想象，对于一个普通城市里的中层官员来说，那会是什么样的情景。
You can imagine what it would like for some kind of mid level bureaucrat in a in a in a city.
除此之外，我还想提醒你一下我之前说过的话：要理解毛泽东的传奇、神话、崇拜——无论你怎么称呼它——究竟有多么根深蒂固。
Beyond that, though, I'd just remind you of what I what I was saying earlier, of understanding quite how pervasive the legend, the myth, the cult, whatever you want to call it, of Mao was.
再说一遍，你知道，社会学家马克斯·韦伯，我们以前讨论过。
Again, you know, sociologist Max Weber, we've spoken about before.
他把魅力视为一种平等。
He talked about charisma as equality.
而魅力，就其本义而言，即那种能够激发广泛动力与强制力的能力，毛泽东在这方面可谓绰绰有余。
And charisma, in the proper sense, the ability to create this sort of wider sense of motivational power, a coercive power, Mao had it in spades.
你知道，其他那些领导人根本没有以这种方式拥有这种魅力。
You know, none of the other leaders of that sort had it in quite that way.
刘少奇当然没有。
Liu Xiaoxi certainly didn't.
他是个出色的官僚。
He was a great bureaucrat.
就连邓小平这样的角色，也并没有以这种方式拥有这种魅力。
Even figures like Deng Xiaoping didn't really have it in quite that sort of a way.
但毛泽东能够构建一个以自己为中心的变革性叙事，甚至连他最亲近的追随者都被深深吸引。
But Mao was able to create a sort of transformative narrative with himself at the center, which beguiled even his closest followers.
那些人，甚至像赖若愚这样遭受如此严重迫害的人，似乎也无法抗拒。
And those people, even like Johann Lai, who suffered so badly, found themselves, it seems, unable to resist.
但是，拉娜，当毛泽东去世后，你提到四人帮，他们被审判并定罪。
But, Rana, when when Mao dies, you talked about the gang of four, and they get brought to trial and they get convicted.
四人帮中最著名的人物是江青，也就是江青，一位前女演员，堪称嗜血的埃娃·庇隆。
And the most prominent member of the gang of four is, Jiang Ching, a madam Mao, a former actress, a kind of homicidal evita.
她是个非常坏的人。
And she She's very bad person,
我觉得。
I think.
她是个非常坏的人。
She's a very bad person.
我忘了庇隆政权也导致了不少人死亡，但并没有那么多。
I forget the Peron regime was responsible for quite a few deaths as well, but not quite that
那么多。
many.
没那么多。
Not quite that many.
江青的倒台，是否被视为毛泽东的魔力已经消散的信号？
The the downfall of madam Mao, is that seen as a kind of signal that Mao's magic has has kind of been dispelled?
文化大革命的长期影响之一，是否实际上使毛泽东主义在中国当代成为一种过时的哲学？
And is one of the long term effects of the Cultural Revolution actually to kind of make Maoism defunct as a philosophy within contemporary China.
是的。
Yeah.
因为我们要插一句关于这个。
Because we had a just to jump in on that.
我觉得我们有几个问题想探讨这个。
I think we had a few questions about that.
文化大革命是否以一种奇特的方式为邓小平的改革、开放和资本主义铺平了道路？所有这些，是否可能正是因为文化大革命——正如汤姆所说——几乎稍微削弱了激进主义的合法性，才使得这些变革得以发生？
Whether the whether the cultural revolution actually paved in a weird way, paved the way for Deng Jiaping's reforms, for their openness, for their capitalism, all of that kind of stuff that whether those things might not have happened had the the Cultural Revolution, as Tom says, almost slightly delegitimized radicalism.
我认为，描述毛泽东去世后、文化大革命结束后的待遇，最好的方式是：文化大革命在他继任者华国锋于1976年迅速逮捕四人帮后很快结束。
I think the best way to describe the treatment of Mao after his death and after the end of the Cultural Revolution, which came to an end very quickly when his successor, Hua Guofong, basically had the the gang of four arrested in in 1976.
谈论这一点最好的方式是使毛泽东思想去神圣化。
The best way to talk about it might be the sterilization of Maoism.
我来解释一下我的意思。
I'll explain what I Right.
我的意思是。
I mean by that.
当江青受审时，她试图把所有责任都推给已故的丈夫，说：我只是毛泽东的一条小吠狗。
When madam Mao, when Jiangqing was put on trial, she tried to blame it all on her late husband saying, I was just Mao's little barking dog.
你为什么要怪我？
Why are you blaming me?
从某种意义上说，这实际上是一个完全合理的说法。
And that's actually a perfectly legitimate thing to say in a sense.
如果他没有允许四人帮做他们想做的事，那他们根本不可能得逞。
Had he not permitted the gang of four to do what they were gonna do, then they wouldn't have been allowed to do it.
但当然，后毛泽东时代的共产党并不想听这种话。
But that, of course, wasn't what the post Mao party wanted to hear.
他们通过党内决议，勉强承认了部分责任，并将一部分过错归咎于毛泽东。
They did come up with a resolution through the party that grudgingly admitted blame and put some of the blame on Mao.
但最终，他们仍希望保留他作为领袖的个人魅力。
But in the end, his charismatic quality as a leader was something they wanted to preserve.
因此，他们试图构建一种关于文化大革命的叙述——这至今仍是官方版本——将文化大革命定性为一场可怕的偏离和错误。
And therefore, they wanted to try and create a version of the Cultural Revolution, which is still essentially the official version, in which it was condemned as a terrible deviation and error in crime.
他们并没有掩盖这一点。
They don't cover that over.
但基本上主张毛泽东本人并非最终责任人，而应将责任归于江青等人，比如四人帮。
But essentially argue that Mao himself was not ultimately to blame and that it can be blamed on these figures such as the, the gang of four.
同时，也开放了一些有限的渠道，让人们能够宣泄情绪。
And a certain amount of limited pathways were given to enable people to try and get their feelings out.
从1977年到80年代初兴起的一种文学体裁——伤痕文学，就是一个典型例子。这些故事在文学层面上或许并不出色，但在情感上极具冲击力，描写了人们在文化大革命中的苦难，获准公开发表和讨论，成为那个时期相对而言疗愈创伤的一部分。
One example that sort of blossomed from about 1977 to the early eighties was a, a genre called scar literature, in which, some, you know, frankly, in literary terms, not very, very good, but certainly in emotional terms, very powerful short stories about people suffering under the Cultural Revolution were permitted for official publication and discussion and became part of a sort of healing of wounds, at least relatively speaking, during that period.
但即便在那段时期，谈话的核心仍然是将毛泽东本人视为事件发生的首要责任人。
But even during that time, the, you know, the live rail of the conversation was blaming Mao centrally and personally for what went on.
相反，将四人帮等人物作为替罪羊，声称一切错误都是他们造成的，而社会其余部分只是被误导了，这成了默认的机制。
Instead, finding figures like the gang of four as a sort of group of scapegoats who say it was all them, somehow the rest of society got led astray became the default mechanism.
而且正如你所说，中国很快转向了更加市场导向的经济，过了一段时间后，人们其实并不想花太多时间去思考那段时期的恐怖。
And since, as you said, China moved on pretty quickly towards, you know, much more kind of, market oriented economy, after a while, people really didn't want to spend too much time thinking about the horrors of that period anyway.
拉娜，我最后问一个关于习近平的问题，他当然是当今中国的最高领导人。
Rana, one last question on Xi Jinping, who, of course, the paramount leader of China today.
他确实在文化大革命期间遭遇了相当不愉快的经历，对吧？
He I mean, he got got caught up quite unpleasantly in the Cultural Revolution, didn't he?
我想知道，您能否简单说说他当时经历了什么，以及您认为这段经历对他性格的长期影响，进而可能对当代中国产生什么影响？
And I wonder, could you just say what happened to him and what you think the long term impact of that might be on his character and therefore perhaps on contemporary China?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
作为习近平个人叙事的一部分，人们已经相当清楚，他在青少年时期曾待在陕西——中国西北部一个传统的共产主义核心地区，因为他的父亲习仲勋，作为毛泽东时代中国的重要军事人物之一，失去了政治上的支持。
It's become quite well known as part of the personal narrative of Xi Jinping that he spent time in Shaanxi province in sort of Northwest China, very traditional communist heartland, actually, it must be must be said, during his teenage years because his father, Xi Zhongxun, who was, you know, one of the major, military figures in, Mao's China, fell out of political, favor.
我认为这带来了两方面的影响。
And I think two things have come from that.
一个是相当负面的，我认为，另一个则可能被视为更积极的。
One that is pretty negative, I think, and one that might be considered more positive.
负面的是这一点。
The negative is this.
如果你想概括习近平的政治理念，我认为它们具有高度的意识形态性，他正在为他所认知的中国在全球的角色重塑中国政治。
You if you want to characterize Xi Jinping's politics, I think they are highly ideological, and he is reinventing Chinese politics for what he can perceive as a global role.
但除此之外，更根本的是他对无序和混乱的极度恐惧。
But it's also driven above anything else by a desperate fear of disorder and chaos.
因为他也和他的那一代人一样，回望六七十年代，看到一个他们认为几乎失控的中国。
Because he and his generation too, I think, look back to the sixties and seventies and see a China which they perceived as having been allowed to basically spin out of control.
在这种情况下，究竟是不是共产党造成的，其实并不重要。
The fact it was the communist party that did it is neither here nor there in this case.
关键是，如果你给中国一点自由空间，它就会再次变成一场文化大革命。
It's the idea that if you give China, you know, leeway, it will turn into a cultural revolution yet again.
这也是为什么，我认为，你会在今天由习近平领导的中国共产党中看到如此极端的监控、控制和自上而下的管理方式。
And that's one of the reasons, I think, for the obsessive level of surveillance, control, and top down management that you see in the Chinese Communist Party today as led by Xi.
这是对文化大革命的一种反应，也是其他因素共同作用的结果。
It is a reaction amongst other things against the Cultural Revolution.
但我之前说过要以一个相对积极的看法作为结尾，我会这么做的。
But I said I'd end on a a partial positive, and I I will.
你可以有力地论证，从新疆维吾尔人的镇压到对香港的打压，习近平的很多政治举措都涉及对公民自由的压制。
You can argue strongly that on everything from, you know, repression of Uighurs in Xinjiang to the crackdown on Hong Kong, a great deal of Xi Jinping's politics have been about the suppression of civil liberties.
我认为这一点确实毋庸置疑。
I think that's not really in in doubt.
但也可以说，其中有一个真实存在的脉络，那就是对经济不平等和贫困问题的持续执着。
But you can also argue that there is one strand that is authentic, which is a continuing obsession also with economic inequality and poverty.
许多人，可能也包括他本人，会辩称他在中国最贫困、最绝望的地区度过的那几年——正如他所见，即使在共产主义革命进行了二、二十五年之后，用一句或许在另一种政治语境中流行的话来说，那里也远未‘提升’，依然处于极度贫困之中——可能让他心中形成了这样一种观念：如果他要在中国经济方面做一件事，那就是努力确保其比他的前任党主席所提出的方案，更多地包含减贫元素，以及在经济学意义上更平等的元素。
And a lot of people, probably he himself, would argue that that period of several years spent in one of the most dirt poor, desperate parts of China that, as he would have seen, even after twenty, twenty five years of of the communist revolution, had not, leveled up, to use a phrase that is perhaps current in a different sort of politics, that was still very, very desperately impoverished, may have put this sense in his mind that if he was gonna do one thing in terms of China's economy, it would be to try and make sure that it had more of a both poverty reduction element and also an egalitarian element in term of terms of economics than perhaps his predecessors as party chairman had, had put forward.
我认为，这两方面都可以相当直接地归因于他在文化大革命那些年里的个人经历。
And those things, I think, can both, in a sort of in in a fairly direct way, be attributed to his personal experience during those years of the Cultural Revolution.
真有意思。
Fascinating.
非常感谢你，拉娜。
Thank you so much, Rana.
我的意思是，这是一个非常棒的话题。
I mean, it's an amazing topic.
我知道一些听众会说，天哪。
And I know some of our listeners will say, oh my god.
你们本可以聊更多内容的。
There's so much more you could have talked about.
我的意思是，我们当然可以，但这已经是一个极其精彩的概述了。
I mean, we could, of course, but that's an absolutely wonderful overview.
汤姆，你不这么认为吗？
Tom, do you not agree?
我的意思是，我学到了非常多的东西。
I mean, I learned a huge amount
事实上，你并没有
of fact, and you didn't
能谈论基督教，这让我受益良多
get to talk about Christianity, which gave me a lot
得到了很大的满足。
of satisfaction.
不。
No.
但拉娜做到了。
But Rana did.
是的。
Yeah.
但拉娜做到了。
But Rana did.
但拉娜
But Rana
完成了。
did it.
这给了我很多
That gave me a lot
他做得如此出色，比我在本播客中习惯听到的要简洁得多，汤姆。
of did it with so much he did it he did it he did it so much more succinctly than I'm used to on this podcast, Tom.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
拉纳，我真不知道该如何感谢你。
Well, Rana, can't thank you enough.
这简直太精彩了。
That was absolutely brilliant.
而且，我希望我们能说服你再回来
And, I hope, you know, we can persuade you to come back
聊聊
to talk
中国其他方面的话题，因为值得讨论的内容太多了。
about, other aspects of China because there's so much to discuss.
多米尼克和汤姆，能在这档播客中向个性崇拜的殿堂致敬，真是我的荣幸，我非常希望这仅仅是一次暂时的对话，未来还能继续深入交流。
Dominic and Tom, it's been a pleasure to to worship at the altar of Cult of Personality at the the pod podcast with the with the mostest, and I very much hope this is just a conversation laid down for now and to be picked up on a future occasion.
这确实是一次
It's been
非常愉快的经历。
a great pleasure.
当然。
Definitely.
如果你能这样谈下去，那 definitely 可以再回来。
If you're gonna talk like that, you can definitely come back.
非常感谢你，拉娜。
Thanks so much, Rana.
再见。
Bye bye.
也谢谢大家的收听。
And thanks, everyone, for listening.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢您收听《余音历史》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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