18. 南北差距

大家好，欢迎收看本期《余下的都是历史》，或者也许该说是《余下的都是地方史》，因为今天我们要探讨的是地方史和多米尼克的历史。由于你和我都是英国人，我们将聚焦于英格兰的地方历史。

Hello and welcome to this edition of the rest is history or perhaps that should be the rest is regional history because today we want to look at the local and Dominic because you and I are English we're going to focus on the regional history of England.

那么，桑布鲁克家族最初来自哪里呢？

So where where do the Sandbrooks hail from?

这听起来有点像霍比特人的名字。

That sounds kind of very Hobbit name.

我认为桑布鲁克家族最初其实来自威尔士西部，很久以前的事了，但我本人是什罗普郡人。

I think the Sandbrooks actually come from West Wales originally, in the sort of mists of time, but I'm a Shropshire.

我是个什罗普郡小子。

I'm a Shropshire lad.

我就像A.E.豪斯曼笔下的人物。

I'm like a character from AE Houseman.

所以你是中部人？

So you're midlander?

是的。

Yeah.

我是个中部人。

I'm a midlander.

我妈妈的家族来自伍尔弗汉普顿，黑乡的比尔斯顿。

My mom's family came from Wolverhampton, from Bilston in the Black Country.

我想那才是我的根源，因为我跟妈妈的家人关系很亲近。

And I suppose that is my eye because I was close to my mom's family, probably.

那才是我真正的黑乡根源，正如你从我的口音中能听出来的，这对我意义重大。

That's more the my sort of Black country roots, which, as you can tell from my accent, mean a lot to me.

我在电台时，经常被人误认为是诺迪·霍勒。

You're you're I'm often mistaken on when I'm on the radio for noddy holder.

所以

So

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

嗯，你显然比我更贴近民众，而我身上带着南方特权的气息，尽管霍兰家族实际上源自斯托克。

Well, you're you're you're much more a a man of the people than I am, obviously, I bear the the whiff of Southern privilege, even though the Hollands actually originate from Stoke.

我们后来从伯明翰迁移到了韦塞克斯腹地的索尔兹伯里。

And we migrated via Birmingham to Salisbury in the heart of Wessex.

我母亲的家族来自怀特岛。

My mother's family is from the Isle Of Wight.

我现在住在伦敦。

I now live in London.

所以我们基本上已经涵盖了英格兰的南部地区，对吧？

So we've basically got we've got the Southern half of England covered, haven't we?

我正想说，你完全是个南方人，对吧？

I was about to say, you're a complete southerner, aren't you?

基本上是的。

Basically, yes.

所以我们还需要一些北方的自豪感。

So we need a bit of northern pride.

我们确实需要。

We do.

需要一点坚韧精神。

A bit of grit.

是的。

Yeah.

那么谁谁谁

So who who who

我们这里有谁，多米尼克？

have we got with us, Dominic?

我们有丹·杰克逊，《辉煌的诺森伯兰人》一书的作者。

We have got Dan Jackson, the author of the brilliant The Northumbrian.

所以他是东北部历史方面的专家。

So he is mister Northeastern History.

丹，我认为你最大的名气在于你是谢丽尔·科尔的首席历史顾问。

And Dan, I think your claim to fame above all else is that you were the official historical adviser to Cheryl Cole.

是吗？

Is that right?

这是真的。

This is true.

是的。

Yes.

我们曾在北希尔斯登记处探索过谢丽尔的家族史，有些屏幕上的化学反应，你至今还能在YouTube上看到。

We explored Cheryl's family history in North Shields register office, bit of on screen chemistry, you can still see it on YouTube.

她也是这么描述的吗？

Is that how she describes it as well?

很遗憾，我们之后没有保持联系。

We didn't keep in touch, sadly.

但所以，丹，你的书《诺森布里亚人》提出了一个精彩的观点，不仅说明了诺森布里亚的重要性，而且总的来说，我认为区域历史也很重要——通过考察一个国家的各个部分，而不仅仅是整体，我们可以学到很多。

But So Dan, your book Northumbrians makes a kind of brilliant case, not just for the significance of Northumbria, but generally, I think regional history, that we can learn a lot from looking at the various parts of a country as well as country as a whole.

我想，你一再发现的，不仅在英格兰，也在苏格兰、爱尔兰、法国、意大利、美国，几乎任何你关注的地方，都是南北分化的观念。

And I guess that one of the things you get again and again, not just in England, but in Scotland, in Ireland, in France, in Italy, in America, pretty much anywhere you want to look at, is the idea of a North South divide.

也许我们可以聚焦这一点，直接把多米尼克完全剪掉。

And perhaps we could kind of focus on that and just cut Dominic out completely.

我们没必要理会米德兰兹地区。

We don't need to bother with the Midlands.

他已经迫不及待好几周了。

He's been itching for this for for weeks.

为了开场，我们有一个来自凯恩·卡莱尔的问题。

So to to kick things off, we've got a we've got a a question from Kane Carlyle.

这可能会引发一些有争议的讨论，而这正是好事，因为显然我们想要有争议的讨论。

Probably one to cause some controversial debate, and that's good because, obviously, we want controversial debate.

那么，你会认为英格兰南北的分界线应该划在哪里？

But where would you argue the line between north and south should be drawn?

在英格兰，不是在大不列颠，就是在英格兰。

In England, that is not in Great Britain, in England.

从我的诺森布里亚视角，更具体地说是从泰恩赛德的角度来看，我认为有充分理由认为，从斯科奇科纳以南的地区基本上就是一片充斥着温啤酒和莫里斯舞的荒原。

Well, with my Northumbrian perspective, well, specifically a Tyneside perspective to this, I think there is a case to be made that anywhere South of Scotch Corner is basically a wasteland of, warm beer and Morris dancing.

但我认为，以默西河与亨伯河为界在英格兰境内是有充分理由的。

But I think there's a good case to be made for the Mersey Humber line, basically in England.

沿着这条线有一些边境郡县，究竟该归入哪一侧尚有争议，尤其是德比郡和诺丁汉郡。

And there are some border counties along there that it's debatable about which side of the line they should fit in, particularly Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire.

但基本上，我认为在英国历史上，英格兰内部的地形障碍仍未得到足够重视。

But basically, I think in English history, the topic topographical barriers within England still aren't well enough understood.

要知道，河流、山丘和森林在很长一段时间内都难以穿越。

And, you know, rivers, hills, forests were difficult to get through, were difficult to traverse for a long time.

如果你想想英格兰的地理，比如默西河和南兰开夏郡的沼泽地——你可能听说过曼彻斯特的莫斯赛德，这些沼泽地实际上是难以通行的湿地。

And if you think about the geography of England, if you think about the Mersey and the mosses of South Lancashire, probably heard of Moss Side in Manchester, mosses were sort of marshes difficult to get through.

然后这片区域又延伸至峰区，那是一片相当险峻的山地，穿越起来非常困难。

Then that kind of bled into the Peak District again, quite a formidable range of hills to get across.

接着是舍伍德森林，它堪称英格兰的阿登森林，穿越起来同样不易。

Then you've got Sherwood Forest, which is the sort of Ardennes of England, it was difficult get through as well.

然后还有特伦特河与亨伯河，还有7号特伦特路，有些人常将其视为英格兰的关键分界线，我认为这很重要。

And then you've got the Trent and the Humber and the 7 Trent Lane, some people often pick that out as a key dividing line in England, which I think is important.

但我认为，最持久的南北分界线是从默西河到亨伯河的那条蜿蜒曲折的界线，这条界线难以穿越。

But I think the most durable boundary, the dividing North and South is that sort of straggly line from the Mersey to the Humber, which is difficult to get through.

我认为有趣的是，那里少数几个可通行的通道之一是谢菲尔德外一个叫‘门’的地方， literally 就是一个门，一个可以通行的入口。

And I think it's interesting that one of the few passes through there is a place called Door outside Sheffield, literally a door, you know, an entrance way that you could get through.

而这条界线两侧的区域，至今仍大致对应着坎特伯雷和约克教区，某种程度上也对应了罗马时期英格兰的下不列颠和上不列颠划分。

And the lines either side of that boundary, which roughly correspond still to this day to the provinces of Canterbury and York, and to an extent, the kind of Britannia inferior and Britannia superior division of England by the Romans.

老实说，我认为这是一个不错的起点。

I think that's a decent starting point, to be honest.

所以，丹，你认为这基本上是一个纯粹的地理问题，而不是说文化、经济等因素更重要？你认为地理因素先于其他一切吗？

So, Dan, you think it's basically, you genuinely geographical thing rather than, mean, there's cultural and economic elements and all the rest of it, you think that the geography comes first before the other stuff?

嗯，我有点

Yeah, I'm a bit

在这个问题上我是个地理决定论者，因为我认为正是地理条件塑造了界线两侧发展起来的文化。

of a geographical determinist on this front because I think that then shaped the culture that grew up on either side of that boundary.

你也可以探索一下英格兰两端不同的地质情况。

You could also explore things like the geology that was different on either side, either ends of England.

北方那种高地牧区，完全是畜牧业。

The sort of upland farming country of the North, which was all pastoral.

然后南方是更富饶、更肥沃的土地，主要以耕作为主，等等。

Then you had the richer, more fertile lands of the South, which are largely arable and so on.

此外，南方还靠近欧洲繁荣的核心地区，这也是英格兰南部的一个优势。

And then you've got the proximity to the prosperous core of Europe, which was an advantage that the South Of England had as well.

我还没读过詹姆斯·霍尔最近出版的关于英格兰历史的书。

And I haven't read James Hall's recent book on the history of England.

我有点被点醒了，年轻人常说，英格兰历史上南北分裂的持久性。

I was kind of red pilled a little bit, that's the thing that young people say, about that the persistence of the North South divide in English history.

我们或许可以谈谈这背后的政治理由。

And we might come on to the politics of that.

是的，我认为这就是我的分界线。

Yeah, think that would be my dividing line.

嗯，说到政治以及它在历史上如何体现，我们三人分别来自南方、中部和北方，而盎格鲁-撒克逊时期著名的三分法就是威塞克斯、麦西亚和诺森布里亚。

Well, mean, talking about the politics and the way that that has expressed itself throughout time, since there are three of us, and since I come from the South, Dominic comes from the Midlands and you come from the North, And the famous tripartite division, in Anglo Saxon period is between Wessex and Mercia and Northumbria.

现在引入它们可能是个好主意，因为正如你所强调的，亨伯河与默西河之间的分界线，正是阿尔弗雷德大帝统治结束后威塞克斯与麦西亚融合的标志，随后是他的儿子爱德华。

It might be good to introduce them at this stage because, of course, the dividing line that you highlight between the Humber and the Mersey is what formed the the the fusion of Wessex and Mercia in the wake of Alfred the Great's reign and then, his his son Edward.

接着，爱德华的儿子埃塞尔斯坦从默西河-亨伯河一线继续推进，征服了诺森布里亚，这基本上就构成了英格兰的版图。

And then Edward's son, Aethelstan, he advances from the the the Mersey Humber line and conquers Northumbria, and that essentially is then what constitutes England.

英格兰联合王国就是这三个王国——或许还包括东盎格利亚——的联合。

The United Kingdom Of England is those the union and perhaps of those three kingdoms plus plus East Anglia.

所以，尽早提及它们非常好，显然也很有必要。

So good good to get them in early and good, obviously, to get in.

我想这是他在本系列中第一次被提到吧？

Think he gets his first mention of the series, doesn't he?

是的。

He does.

干得好，汤姆。

Well done, Tom.

既然你提到了盎格鲁-撒克逊人，我能问个问题吗？

Can I just ask a question now that you've brought that up, the Anglo Saxons?

丹，那丹麦法区呢？

Dan, what about the Danelaw?

你觉得丹麦法区很重要吗？

Do you think the Dane law is a big thing?

你觉得那是一个持久的边界吗？

Do you think that's an enduring boundary?

我觉得是的。

I think it is.

没错。

Yeah.

不过从我的角度来看，情况略有不同，因为在英格兰东北部，维京人确实进行过劫掠，但并没有在蒂斯河以北定居。

Although it's slightly different from my perspective, again, right up in the Northeast Of England, because the Danes certainly raided, but did not settle North Of The Tees.

我一直对蒂斯河与特威德河之间的土地非常感兴趣，因为在我看来，这片土地在英国历史上构成了一个独立的实体。

And I've always been very interested in the lands between the Tees and the Tweed as in my view, forming a separate entity basically in English history.

而且这片土地一直被视为英格兰与苏格兰之间的缓冲地带。

And it was always that land was always seen as a bit of a buffer zone as well between England and Scotland.

我们还没有真正谈到这一切的北部边界，但你知道，英格兰和苏格兰之间的边界在卡姆战役之后，大约在1018年就基本确定了，这场战役发生在特威德河上。

We haven't really touched on the Northern frontier of all this, but you know, the border between England and Scotland was pretty much settled in 10/18 after the Battle of Carham on the River Tweed.

所以有些人认为它略有波动，但实际上它在过去大约一千年里一直相当稳定。

So, some people think it fluctuates a little bit, but actually it's been pretty stable for about a thousand years.

嗯，丹，接着这个话题，我们还有另一个来自肖恩·巴恩斯的问题，这个问题很快就会引出下一个：也就是说，英格兰北部是否与苏格兰有更多的共同点，而不是与英格兰南部？

Well well, Dan, following up from that, we've got another question from Sean Barnes, and this leads in very quickly, which is, does the North Of England, in other words, have more in common with Scotland than it does with the South Of England?

这是一个有趣的问题，因为苏格兰本身也是一个由许多不同身份拼凑而成的联合王国。

That's an interesting question because of course, Scotland is also a United Kingdom, a stitched together of many different identities.

而这些身份之一，显然就是诺森布里亚身份。

And one of those identities obviously is the Northumbrian identity.

是的，我也这么认为。

Yeah, think so.

我认为，从某种程度上看，把诺森布里亚看作一个英格兰和苏格兰的维恩图中重叠部分是有帮助的，因为从我的角度来看，如果你看看纽卡斯尔、格拉斯哥和爱丁堡这些城市之间的相似之处，它们在文化、建筑、贸易模式和工业基础方面确实存在某种亲缘关系，对足球、啤酒、男子气概等这些特征的热情也如出一辙，我认为确实存在一种可以察觉到的文化共鸣。

I think a useful way of looking at, to an extent, a useful way of looking at my Northumbria is if you think of a Venn diagram of England and Scotland, Northumbria is a sort of shaded overlapping section, because it does feature, I mean, from my point of view, if you look at the similarities between cities like Newcastle and Glasgow and Edinburgh, there is an affinity there in culture and architecture and trading patterns in the industrial base of those places, enthusiasm for football and beer and, machismo and all those sorts of features, which I do think there is that cultural sort of, vibe that you can notice the similarities with.

这其实可以追溯到非常早期的中世纪时期，因为最初的诺森布里亚王国一直延伸到如今爱丁堡所在的位置。

I mean, again, it goes back to very early medieval period because the kingdom of Northumbria originally goes right the way up to where Edinburgh is now.

是的，确实如此。

It does, yes.

我们中有些人还怀有对第四等级的复仇野心。

And there are some of us with kind of revanchist designs of ranks of the fourth.

但没错，英苏边境曾激烈争夺，苏格兰国王还曾将廷代尔以及亨廷登郡视为他们的领地，不是吗？

But yeah, the Anglo Scottish border was much fought over and it was slightly complicated too by the Kings of Scotland, held Tyndale as one of their liberties, as well as Huntingdonshire, didn't they?

那是他们的领地之一，也就是说

That was one of their possessions As in

甚至远至亨廷登郡，这很有趣——是的，

far south as Huntingdonshire, that's an interesting- Yeah,

最近，弗朗西斯·杨博士写了一篇有趣的文章，探讨亨廷登郡在技术上是否仍属于苏格兰。

there was doctor Francis Young wrote an interesting thing on that recently about whether whether technically Huntingdonshire is still part of Scotland.

嗯，

Well,

这得交给尼古拉斯·斯特金去处理了

it's one for Nicholas Sturgeon to

让我就刚才那个问题再问你几个小问题。

Let me just let me just quiz you a tiny bit more on that last question.

因为当我回想起我们一开始谈话时，你提到的南北差异，无意中凸显了‘英格兰’这个概念。

Because it occurred to me in your very first when we were talking right at the beginning, that the emphasis on sort of what differentiates North and South slightly sort of exposed the idea of an England.

所以你的意思是，北方地区和苏格兰有更多的共同点吗？

So are you sort of saying I mean, this question, does the North have more in common with Scotland?

这可能成立吗？

If in can that be true?

因为毫无疑问，东北地区的人们对自己的英国身份非常重视，不是吗？

Because surely the their Englishness is very important to people in the Northeast, isn't it?

我的意思是，东北人会支持英格兰足球队。

I mean, northeasterners follow the England football team.

他们不会被尼古拉斯·斯特金的迷人声音吸引过去吧？

They're not they're not they're not sort of lured away by the siren voice of Nicholas Sturgeon, are they?

他们的英国身份显然对他们来说至关重要。

Mean, they their Englishness surely matters to them intensely.

我认为这正变得越来越重要，主要与足球有关，比如上世纪九十年代欧洲杯1996年现象，那时人们开始看到一种更自信的英格兰身份，而英格兰历史上最伟大的足球运动员确实来自英格兰东北部。

I think it is starting to matter more largely related to football, the kind of the nineteen nineties Euro ninety six phenomenon where you start to see a more assertive English identity, and certainly England's greatest ever footballers came from the North East Of England.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no question about that, of course.

但比利写道：不，不，不，你是个

But Billy writes, no, no, no, you're a

巨大的错误。

great mistake.

但我觉得我们不应忽视这样一个事实：我的家人就是这一现象的产物——在十九世纪，英格兰北部是一个英格兰人、苏格兰人、爱尔兰人和威尔士人高度融合的大熔炉。

But I think what we shouldn't lose sight of the fact, and my own family is a product of this, is that the North Of England was a huge melding pot of English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh in the nineteenth century.

在某些群体中，英国身份或许带有一点令人不悦的意味。

That a British identity wasn't, you know, in certain quarters, I suppose a British identity has a slightly distasteful feel to it.

它让人联想到《统治吧，不列颠尼亚》和屠夫的摊位，

It's kind of Rule Britannia and the butcher's Not

在这个播客里，不是播客。

in this podcast, not podcast.

但在

But in

在某些地区，但我认为这很好地描述了十九世纪相互关联的工业世界，将格拉斯哥与泰恩赛德、默西赛德联系起来，巴罗和弗内斯是兰开夏郡北部一个非常苏格兰化的城镇。

certain quarters, but I think it's a good description of the kind of interconnected industrial world of the nineteenth century that connected Glasgow to, you know, Tyneside, Merseyside, Barrow And Furnace was a very Scottish town in North Lancashire.

事实上，当时这一人口大量融合，形成了我所认为的真正意义上的英国人口。

That was just a fact that there was a huge melding of that population into a genuinely British population in my view.

但我认为你说得对，英格兰身份——所有民调都表明这一点正在不断增强。

But I think you're right that the English identity and all the polling suggests this is growing all the time.

但我仍然认为，就文化、工业基础等方面而言，英格兰至少是两个国家，即北方与南方。

But I still think that England is basically two nations at least when it comes to North versus South, in its culture, industrial base, etcetera, etcetera.

接着这个话题，这可能是一个多米尼克肯定会参与回答的问题，来自基思·曼斯菲尔德。

Following on from that, and this might be a question that, Dominic would definitely want to come in, it's from Keith Mansfield.

他说，为什么来自北方或南方的人们都会忽视米德兰兹地区？

And he says, why do people from either north or south ignore the Midlands?

#米德兰兹确实如此。

Hashtag Midlands indeed.

我们拥有丰富的历史。

We exist with a rich history.

是的。

Yeah.

他说得对，不是吗？

He's quite right, isn't he?

丹，我们是不是在这里搞了一种南北划分？

Dan, are we not guilty of a kind of Southern Northern carve up here?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我们确实如此。

I think we are.

我的中部地区基本上就是M62走廊，但对我来说，兰开夏和约克郡都像是中部地区，不过，最好听听多米尼克的看法，中部地区和英格兰南部其他地区真的有那么不同吗？

And, you know, my Midlands are basically the M 62 corridor, but my that's Lancashire and Yorkshire feel like the Midlands to me, but, I suppose, and it'd be good to get Dominic's take on this, that Is are the Midlands that different to the rest of the South Of England?

它们是否具有独特性？因为我觉得应该把中部地区归入南部，这太不应该了。

Do they do they have a distinctive because I would I would love the Midlands in with the South, That's shameful.

这真是可耻。

That is shameful.

我认为米德兰兹非常独特。

I think the Midlands are very distinctive.

我认为，我的意思是，工业革命始于什罗普郡和黑乡。

I think there's I mean, the industrial revolution began in Shropshire, the Black Country.

丹皱眉是因为他认为一切始于东北部。

I mean, Dan's frowning because he thinks everything began in the Northeast.

没错。

Exactly.

它不是始于轮子吗？

Did it not begin in the wheel?

你能证明自己吗，汤姆？天哪，不能。

Can you prove yourself, Tom, for god's No.

我认为米德兰兹非常

I think The Midlands has a very

轮子的特色？

distinctive of the wheel?

米德兰兹具有独特的身份。

The The Midlands has a distinctive identity.

我的意思是，如果你想想西米德兰兹和工业，它通常建立在工程、链条制造和小型家族企业之上，而不一定是大型工厂，而是更小的作坊。

I mean, if you think about the the West Midlands and industry, it's often founded on engineering, on chain making, on small family run enterprises, not necessarily big factories, but smaller workshops.

而且确实有一种文化认同。

And there's definitely a sort of cultural identity.

我的意思是，即使是像你提到的足球这样微小的事情，显然也是如此。

I mean, even tiny things like, you mentioned football, obviously.

我的意思是，足球在北部和米德兰兹的大部分地区都是共通的。

I mean, football is shared across much of the North and The Midlands.

但当足球联赛创立时，它倾向于

But when the football league was started, it tended to

是北方的和

be Northern and

米德兰地区的俱乐部。

Midlands clubs.

因此，从这个意义上说，米德兰地区更像北方。

So in that sense, The Midlands feels more Northern.

那里有一些独特的饮品。

There are sort of distinctive drinks.

有一些独特的方言。

There are distinctive dialects.

比如在西米德兰地区你会喝的淡啤酒，在南方你可能就不会喝。

A pint of mild, for example, that you would drink in the West Midlands, you wouldn't drink necessarily in the South.

所以我认为，米德兰地区显然是这个故事中的波斯尼亚，不是吗？

So I think The Midlands has obviously been it is the sort of Bosnia of this story, isn't it?

它是被双方贪婪目光觊觎，或被双方排斥者拒绝的受害者，他们都不把米德兰视为自己世界的一部分。

It's the sort of victim of the greedy eyes of or indeed, rejectionists on both sides who reject The Midlands as part of the other world.

我想，米德兰地区发生的另一件事是工业的衰退，这可能让米德兰现在比过去感觉更像南方，因为在1980年代初期，就比例而言，西米德兰地区是制造业崩溃最严重的地区。

And I guess the other thing that's happened with The Midlands is the decline of industry means maybe The Midlands feels a little bit more Southern now than it did because nowhere suffered a greater collapse in manufacturing in the first years, the 1980s, than the West Midlands did proportionately.

因此，在这个意义上，我觉得现在它可能比五十年前更像南方了。

And so in that sense, I guess it maybe feels more Southern now than it would have done fifty years ago.

但我认为，这引出了一个有趣的问题：地区身份是否是恒定的？

But I guess, I mean, that kind of opens up the interesting question about whether regional identities are constant.

因为丹，你一开始提到，很多这些身份是由地理和地质决定的，这意味着某些地区认同感或许可以一直追溯到罗马时期，甚至更早。

Because Dan, at the beginning, you suggested that a lot of these are determined by geography and geology, which would imply that certain senses of regional identity are things that you can trace right the way maybe all the way back to the Roman period, perhaps even before.

但相反，随着交通通信越来越发达，地质和地理的重要性就降低了，这些地区认同感或许也会逐渐淡化。

But conversely, the better communications become, the less significant geology and geography becomes, and perhaps the more these regional identities fade.

关于诺森布里亚人，你非常有力地论证了这是一种非常强烈、非常鲜明的地区认同。

And one of the things that is fascinating about the Northumbrians is that you absolutely make the case that this is a very, very strong regional identity.

但我在阅读时觉得，这实际上是英格兰最典型的例子。

But I thought, kind of reading it, that it's really the classic example in England.

几乎在其他地方，都找不到如此规模的地区认同，也许只有利物浦算一个。

There aren't regional identities in that scale almost anywhere else, perhaps Liverpool, I guess.

多米尼克，你还能想到其他例子吗？

Can you think of any other, Dominic?

我

I

不。

No.

我认为这是对的。

I think that's right.

我认为诺森布里亚，或者说东北地区很特殊，部分原因是它离得实在太远了。

I think Northumbria well, the the Northeast is unusual, partly because it's so far.

你不觉得吗？我的意思是，偏远这个词对东北地区的人来说可能听起来很冒犯，因为他们会觉得，才是英格兰其他地方偏远。

Do you not think that's I mean, that's the remoteness is I mean, remoteness would sound offensive to something in the Northeast because they'd say it's the rest of England that's remote.

但你不觉得关键就在于它离得实在太远了，尤其是远离伦敦吗？

But don't you think that's the key that it's it's so far away, particularly from London

是的。

Yeah.

因此它没有被污染，姑且这么说吧。

That it's not been contaminated, as for want of a better word.

我想，制作人提到的另一个地方，我得给他点赞，因为这是他的主意，他说得对，那就是康沃尔。

I suppose the only other place the producer is suggesting, I'm gonna give him the credit since it's his idea, he's quite right, is Cornwall.

所以，这两个地方都算是边缘地带。

So again, they're both kind of peripheral.

我的意思是，它们都在边缘，不是吗？

I mean, they're they're on the edge, aren't they?

我的意思是，你觉得诺森伯兰，也就是东北部，很特别吗？

I mean, that's other do you think the Northumbria, the Northeast is is unusual?

你觉得康沃尔是个不错的对比吗，丹？

Do think Cornwall is a good comparison, Dan?

我觉得你说得对，距离因素确实关键。

I think you're right about the distance factor.

在工业鼎盛时期，纽卡斯尔和伦敦之间一直存在一种吸引力，因为它们是英格兰人口最多的两个城市，且相距最远。

And there was always a fascination in it, in the industrial heyday between Newcastle and London, because they were the two largest centres of English population at the furthest distance from each other.

它们之间实际上有着一种相互依存的关系，因为伦敦作为大都市，从17世纪开始就依赖纽卡斯尔的煤炭作为燃料来源。

And they had this reciprocal symbiotic relationship really, because London's the big smoke because it started to burn Newcastle coal from the 1600s and it relied on that source of fuel power.

而且当时来回的交通频繁，这意味着作为一座外省城市，纽卡斯尔通过运煤船的往返而异常地与外界紧密相连。

And there was a traffic backwards and forwards, it meant that Newcastle, you know, Newcastle as a provincial city was unusually well connected through the Collier ships going backwards and forwards.

随着人们意识到不再需要煤炭，这种关系也略微恶化了。

As people realise they didn't need coal anymore, that relationship has soured slightly.

但有趣的是，我们已经开始触及到西南地区，因为西南地区在这其中的位置一直是个棘手的问题。

But it's interesting, already, we started to touch upon the West Country because where the West Country fits into this is always a bit of a tricky question.

我隐隐觉得，像纽卡斯尔这样的地方，当地人——盖尔人——在国民意识中有着鲜明的形象，而布里斯托尔则未必如此。

And I've got a slight hunch that a place like Newcastle has a well drawn, people from there, the Geordies have a well drawn, or there's a well drawn picture of them in the national consciousness, in a way that Bristol, I don't think does necessarily.

我之所以有这种想法，是因为他们从未拥有一支出色的足球队。

And I've always had this hunches because they've never had a good football team.

因此，他们从未像其人口规模所应得的那样，在全国性的讨论中频繁出现。

So they've never really featured as much as their size should suggest in the kind of national conversation.

但有些地方，比如萨默塞特人，不就代表了乡村居民吗？

But but some I mean, Somerset people kind of stand in for country people, don't they?

这是一种典型的乡村口音，人们在扮演农民或类似角色时，往往会默认使用这种口音。

The the the it's it's the archetypal rural accent, which is what people will do as the default mode for when they're, you know, farm farmers or whatever.

因此，也许缺乏一支足球队恰恰是关键，因为你需要一个大型都市区，而布里斯托尔并不与此相关。

And so it may be that the lack of a football team is precisely the point because you need a large conurb, and Bristol isn't associated with that.

另一个我们应当探讨的问题是，英格兰作为一个极其城市化的国家的程度。

And the other thing that causes that we're talking something that we should perhaps talk about is the degree to which England is a peculiarly urban country.

我们可能不像其他国家那样拥有对乡村空间的感知。

And we don't have the sense of rural space perhaps that you get in most other countries.

因此，像萨默塞特这样的地方作为乡村地区的象征就显得更加重要了。

And therefore the idea of Somerset, say, as a place that is rural comes to have all the more significance.

他们是我们最后的农民，不是吗？

They're our last peasants, aren't they?

我们比大多数欧洲国家更早地失去了农民社群，我想，诺福克也是如此，还有其他一些地区，它们不太容易被纳入这种南北或中部的划分框架中。

We lost our peasant kind of community earlier than most European countries, I suppose, and they stand in the the and then there's Norfolk, I suppose, as well as the other region, part of England that doesn't fit that easily into this schema, I guess, of north versus south versus Midlands.

它们是不是有点边缘化了？

Do they stand on a limb a little bit?

嗯，丹，现在有一个越来越明显的现象，我认为这越来越真实：主要的分界线并不是……

Well, there's an there's an increasing thing, isn't it, Dan, that the big divide is not I mean, I think this is increasingly true.

不是南北之分。

It's not north and south.

而是伦敦与所谓的深层英格兰之间的对立。

It's London versus, as it were, Deep England.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Right.

大都市与边缘地区。

Sort of metropolis and periphery.

好的。

Okay.

所以这让我们回到另一个问题，我们之前记得来自paradoxymoron的。

So that this brings us on, to another question from we'll remember this from previously, paradoxymoron.

我们，哦，是的。

We Oh, yes.

我记得paradoxymoron这个词。

I remember paradoxymoron.

他或她问，伦敦作为英格兰首要城市的主导地位可以追溯到多久以前？

And he or she asks, how far back does the dominance of London as England's premier city go?

一直都是这样吗？

Was it always this way?

我能回答这个问题吗？

Can I answer that?

这太令人震惊了。

That's shocking.

你这是在自己回答问题了。

You're and answering questions yourself.

我的意思是，这可以追溯到罗马时代，因为伦敦是罗马人建立的。

Well, I mean, goes back to the Romans because London is a Roman foundation.

谈谈基督教吧。

Talk about Christianity.

伦敦作为罗马行省首府的特殊之处在于，那里原本并没有任何定居基础。

What is unusual about London among Roman provincial capitals is that there wasn't a foundation there already.

起初，罗马人计划将科尔切斯特作为中心，因为那是当地最大部落势力的中心。

To begin with, the Romans planned to make Colchester the center because that's the center of the local, largest tribal power.

但伦敦之所以兴起，是因为它恰好是泰晤士河最低的过河点，同时也能通过泰晤士河口通航。

But London emerges because it is, simultaneously the lowest bridging point on the Thames, and it's navigable up the Thames Estuary.

因此，这再次印证了丹的观点：地理决定命运。

And so again, it illustrates Dan's point that geography is destiny.

我认为，当南不列颠出现一个统一政权时，伦敦几乎不可避免地会成为最重要的中心。

And it's almost inevitable, I think, that when you have a unitary power in Southern Britain, London almost inevitably becomes the the most significant center.

这一点的证据是，当罗马在不列颠的统治崩溃、南不列颠的政治统一瓦解时，伦敦便走向衰落。

And the measure of that is that when Roman power collapses in Britannia and the political unity in Southern Britain fragments, London goes into decline.

一旦英格兰统一王国建立起来，伦敦就像一个巨大的磁石，缓慢地扩张并重新恢复其权力。

Once you have the establishment of a unitary kingdom of England, London, like a massive great spot, the great when, slowly expands and comes back into power.

我认为你说得对。

And I think I think you're right.

我的意思是，不仅是英格兰，甚至整个英国乃至爱尔兰的政治史和文化史，都围绕着伦敦及东南部地区的引力展开，以及我们如何应对和适应这种引力。

Mean, I think that that essentially the political history, cultural history of not just England, but of Britain and perhaps of Ireland as well, is about the gravitational pull of London and the Southeast more generally and how you deal with that, how you cope with that.

丹，东北部的人们在多大程度上将自己定义为对抗伦敦、对抗所谓我们如今都熟知的‘都市精英’？

Dan, how much politically have people in the North East defined themselves against London and against the idea of a sort of I mean, to use the sort of the terminology that we're all so familiar with now, the idea of a metropolitan elite?

正如我所说，最近这种关系恶化了，因为我们失去了两地之间的那种相互性，我们越来越把自己看作是一个遥远帝国首都下的落后省份。

Well, as I said, I think it's soured of late because because it hasn't we've lost that kind of reciprocity between the two the two places, and we've we've seen we've come to see ourselves more as a sort of benighted, province of a distant imperial capital.

如果从长远来看英格兰南部的主导地位，或者说伦敦的主导地位，你会发现它在历史上多次挫败了任何对其权力的威胁，并且多次成为对北方发动攻击的跳板。

And if you take the long view of the South Of England's dominance, I suppose you can read it that London's dominance, they've seen off any threat to its power several times in history, they've been the springboard for frankly, attacks on the North.

你知道，如果你退后一步思考，我一直对诺曼人在十一世纪对北方的镇压感兴趣，之后还有玫瑰战争。

You know, if you stand back from it and think about, you know, I've always been interested in the hurrying of the North in the eleventh century by the Normans, and then you've got the Wars of the Roses after that.

宗教改革时期，北方是天主教的堡垒；内战也具有南北对立的维度；雅各布派叛乱也是如此。

The Reformation, you know, when the North was the stronghold of Catholicism, the civil war had a North South dimension, the Jacobite rebellions also.

然后还有皮特·卢和宪章运动等种种事件，这些运动在北方酝酿，但很快就被镇压下去了。

Then you've got Peter Lou and the Chartist rebellion and all those sort of things, which were kind of fermented in the North, but pretty swiftly dealt with and put down.

从2021年的视角来看，伦敦和东南部依然像以往一样，彻底压制了所有对其主导地位的威胁。

And, you know, from the perspective of 2021, London and the South East presides as it ever has, you know, seen of any of those threats to its dominance really.

老实说，我看不出这方面会有什么改变。

And I can't see much changing on that front, frankly.

因为从某种意义上说，无论你如何在其他地区重新调配政府机构、博物馆或其他机构，一个残酷的地理事实，以及数百年政治与文化权力累积形成的文化效应，都使得伦敦具有如此难以撼动的主导地位。

Because in a sense, no matter how many government departments or museums or whatever you shuffle around the rest of the country, it is the kind of brutal fact of geography that And I suppose of kind of cultural, you know, the cumulative effect of centuries and centuries of political and cultural power that makes London so challengingly preponderant.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

大约从1700年到1914年，北方曾短暂地几乎成为英格兰的主导力量，这同样要归因于地质条件——地下发现了巨大的矿产资源。

There was a brief a briefish period from, let's say about 1700 to 1914 when the North almost became preeminent in England because of the, again, going back to geology, it found this enormous mineral wealth under its feet.

像英格兰东北部的纽卡斯尔这样的地方，曾成为18世纪的达拉斯或迪拜，因为它掌控着至关重要的商品——煤炭和能源，但这种优势并未持续下去。

And, you know, place like the Northeast Of England, Newcastle became the sort of Dallas or Dubai of the eighteenth century, because it controlled this vastly, important commodity, coal and fuel power, but that didn't last.

曼彻斯特同样也是工业革命的中心，主导着棉纺及其他相关产业。

Manchester likewise is the center of the industrial revolution, cotton spinning and all the rest of it.

19世纪中期曾有人计划在曼彻斯特建立一个替代议会，但如今这种可能性微乎其微。

There were some plans in the mid nineteenth century to create an alternative parliament in Manchester, but there's not much chance of that these days.

尽管在疫情期间，安迪·伯纳姆作为北方的代表人物出现了一些动静。

Although there's some stirrings through this pandemic period in figure of Andy Burnham being a sort of flag bearer for the North.

在同样这一系列南北对抗中，几个月前曾一度浮现，但如今又稍有平息，伦敦通过白厅和威斯敏斯特等地重新确立了自身地位。

In that same sequence of North versus South clashes, which did emerge a month or two ago and seems to have subsided again a little bit and London's reasserted itself through Whitehall and Westminster and so on.

但除了工业革命时期那段短暂的、局面略有反转的时光外，我认为那是北方唯一一次占据主导地位的时候。

But other than that brief kind of industrial revolution period when the tables were turned slightly, that's been the only time I think when the North has been preeminent.

我认为这很不寻常，不是吗？

And I think that's unusual, isn't it?

在欧洲比较的语境下，这非常罕见，因为你看葡萄牙，有里斯本和波尔图；西班牙，有马德里、巴塞罗那、毕尔巴鄂、塞维利亚；法国，有里昂、马赛；德国，更是拥有众多城市，毕竟德国直到1871年才实现统一。

It's very unusual in a comparative European context because if you look at, you know, Portugal, you're Lisbon and Porto, Spain, Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbao, Seville, France, you know, Lyon, Marseille, Germany, lots of cities, you know, because, of course, Germany wasn't unified until eighteen seventy, seventy one.

但英国的情况非常独特，我认为。

But England is very unusual, I think.

这对我们政治造成了扭曲，我个人觉得，一切都被吸进了汤姆所说的……

And that's distorting on our politics, personally, that everything is sucked into this, as Tom calls it,

伟大的‘当’。

the great when.

让我们把视角放得更广一些，回到工业革命之前，威廉·里奇提出一个问题，提到了约克。

Just broadening the camera a bit and maybe going back before the Industrial Revolution, there's a question from William Ritchie, who mentions York.

为什么约克从未成为伦敦的竞争对手？它曾是罗马和维京时代的首都、宗教中心、最大郡的首府以及河港。

And why did York never emerge as a rival hub to London, a Roman and Viking capital, ecclesiastical center, capital of the largest county and river port?

所以，记得吗？当时还曾讨论过把上议院迁到约克。

So, you know, and there was talk, wasn't there, of moving the House of Lords to York?

那是个有点疯狂的鲍里斯计划，令人惊讶的是，它最终无疾而终了。

That was a kind of mad Boris plan that seems to have bitten the dust, surprisingly.

我们可以从他的河口机场飞过去。

We could fly there from his estuary airport.

但约克确实有，我想我记不太清了。

But York does have I think I can't remember.

有位著名历史学家曾称它为英国的天然首都。

Some famous historian described it as the natural capital of Britain.

那么，丹，作为南方人，你对约克怎么看？

So what's your take on York, Dan, as a southern softies to you, I guess?

是的。

Yes.

约克是个非常宜人的地方，尽管你知道，它曾经拥有庞大的工人阶级社区，主要围绕铁路和巧克力制造等行业。

It's it's it's a very pleasant place, although, you know, it did have a large working class community at York, centered around the railways and chocolate making and all that sort of thing.

但我认为，这又是一个地理上的残酷事实：伦敦离欧洲核心繁荣地带更近，我认为这个地带从东南英格兰延伸至低地国家、莱茵兰，一直到意大利北部。

But I think there's just a brute fact of geography again, that London is just that much closer to that kind of European core prosperous zone of Europe, which I think extends from Southeast England through the Low Countries, through the Rhineland, through, you know, into Northern Italy.

至少一千年来，这一直是欧洲最繁荣、最具活力的经济区域，而泰晤士河大致正对着这个区域。

That has always been for at least a thousand years, the most prosperous dynamic part of, economic part of Europe and, you know, the Thames faces it more or less.

因此，坦率地说，正是这种邻近性，决定了伦敦在英格兰东南部的发展，就像英吉利海峡的宽度对英国安全的重要性一样。

And so just that proximity factor, frankly, was as decisive for, you know, the growth of London in the South East as the width of the English Channel was to the security of Britain.

人们有时会说，英国政治历史的独特稳定性源于我们宪法的辉煌之类的原因，我认为这很重要，但我确实认为英吉利海峡的宽度起到了决定性作用。

You know, people sometimes say, you know, the unique stability of, the British political history is because of the glories of our constitution and all that sort of thing, which I think is important, but I do think the width of the English Channel has been pretty decisive.

这意味着拿破仑、德皇等这些威胁根本无法轻易地挥师渡海而来，这就是地理屏障的作用。

It meant that Napoleon and the Kaiser and all those sorts of threats just couldn't march over here very easily, the sceptre dial factor.

所以，地理再次证明了其决定性作用。

So geography, yet again proving to be destiny.

我觉得我们需要休息一下。

I think we need a break.

我去吃个司康饼吧。

I might go and have a scone.

该死。

Damn.

我猜你想要一杯舍恩酒之类的。

I expect you'd want a schoon or whatever it is.

奶油涂在果酱上面。

Cream over jam.

果酱涂在奶油上面。

Jam over cream.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

休息结束后再见。

We will see you after this break.

欢迎回来，从遛你的惠比特犬到其余的都成了历史。

Welcome back from exercising your whippets to the rest is history.

我们现在要讨论南北差异。

And we're talking about the North South Divide.

现在，让我们谈谈你知道的，我们已经处理了一些比较琐碎的问题。

Now let's talk about the you know, we've dealt with some of the sort of more trivial questions.

让我们来探讨一下实质内容。

Let's get to the real substance.

汤姆·沃茨提出了这个问题。

Tom Watts has asked the question.

他说，为什么一天中不同时间吃的食物会有不同的名称？

He says, what is going on with different names for meals eaten at different times of day?

丹，早餐、午餐、茶点。

Dan, breakfast, lunch, tea.

我错了吗？

Am I wrong?

我觉得是早餐、晚餐、茶点，对吧？

I think it's breakfast dinner tea, isn't it?

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

当然了。

Of course it is.

我在说什么呢？

What am I saying?

我连自己都搞不清楚了。

I don't even know my own mind.

想想是晚餐还是午餐。

Well, think dinner or lunch.

你从不用‘午餐’这个词吗？

Do you never use the word lunch?

我会用，但每次跟儿子说去吃个午餐，我都觉得自己有点矫情。

I do, but I also I always feel slightly effete when I talk to my boy for a spot of lunch.

是的。

Yes.

嗯，午餐，我想是这样。

Well, luncheon, I suppose.

午餐的话，那你就是约翰·梅杰了，对吧？

Luncheon, you'd be John Major then, wouldn't you?

但茶，我认为关键在于晚餐，不是吗？

But tea, I think the key thing is the evening meal, isn't it?

是茶。

It's tea.

是的。

Yes.

我是个喝茶的人。

I'm a tea man.

我从小就是喝茶长大的。

I was brought up with tea.

当我上学时，其他人都吃晚餐，公平地说，因为我上的是寄宿学校。

Then when I went to school, everybody else had dinner, to be fair, because I went to a boarding school.

难道不是晚饭吗？

Is is it not supper?

嗯，那真是个本事。

Well, is that is a feat.

不是。

No.

这是都市的说法。

It's metropolitan.

你说的晚饭，是指一碗脆皮坚果玉米片之类的东西吗？

And by supper, you mean a bowl of crunchy nut cornflakes or something like

不是。

No.

他吃好几道菜。

He has multiple courses.

是谁说英国人只要一开口，就会被另一个英国人瞧不起？

Who who who is it said that that it's impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth and not be despised by another Englishman?

因为这是因为我想

Because it's because I

大概是奥古斯特。

guess August.

而且，这里还涉及阶级问题与地域差异的交织。

That that that also, what's feeding in here is is the way in which, issues of class mix with, regional variations.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想，丹，你会觉得南方持续保持主导地位的一种方式，就是它诱使北方人南下，住在克拉彭这样的地方。

And I guess, Dan, you would feel that that one of the ways that the South continues to exert its primacy is that it of it seduces people from the North into coming down to the South and kind of living in Clapham.

是的。

Yes.

嗯，十九世纪英国统治阶级中一直有批评者，他们不希望自己的儿子沾染脏活，只想把自己变成像彬格莱先生那样的纯正英国人，于是他们尽快逃离了北方。

Well, that was always there's a critic of the ruling classes of the nineteenth century in Britain, certainly that didn't want to get their, their sons didn't want to get their hands dirty and they wanted to turn themselves into Englishmen like Mr Bingley and all that sort of thing and Jainos, that they quickly left the North as fast as they could.

但我认为RP口音真的很有趣，因为据说两位兰开夏郡出身的首相罗伯特·皮尔和威廉·格莱斯顿都拥有这种口音，我认为皮尔的口音更带有典型的兰开夏口音或鼻音，但这些特征在十九世纪通过寄宿学校等方式逐渐被抹平了。

But I think the RP thing is really interesting because it is said that Robert Peel and William Gladstone, both Lancastrian Prime Ministers had it, I think Peel more so had a proper Lancashire sort of twang or burr to his accent, but all that was ironed out in the course of the nineteenth century through boarding schools and so on.

没错。

Yeah.

然后从20世纪20年代起，BBC进一步强化了这种趋势，消除了所有方言上的棱角。

And then reinforced by the BBC, I guess, from the 1920s onwards, smoothed out all the wrinkles.

我确实认为这是对的。

I I definitely think that's right.

我的意思是，你可能知道罗斯·麦基本的那本《阶级与文化》，丹，他在书中基本认为，英格兰直到20世纪20年代以后才形成了一种统一的英国文化，因为像BBC这样的媒介抹平了方言、阶级和区域文化的差异，创造了一种此前根本不存在的全国性文化。

I mean, I I remember you might know this book, classes and cultures by Ross McKibbon, Dan, in which he basically argues that England only got a sort of uniform English culture from the nineteen twenties onwards because of things like the BBC, because that erased the differences of dialect and class and and of regional culture by creating a national culture that hitherto had not existed at all.

换句话说，如果你在19世纪末长大，去听音乐厅或喜剧表演，当你从利物浦去伦敦时，你就听不懂那些内容。

So in other words, if you were growing up in the late nineteenth century and you went to the music hall or to hear a comedian or something, you wouldn't get all if you were in Liverpool and you went to London, you wouldn't get it.

你听不懂那些方言。

You wouldn't get the dialect.

你听不懂那些俚语和典故。

You wouldn't get the references.