本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
欢迎
Welcome
来到休息室。
to the rest.
这是历史性的时刻。
It is history.
我，我邀请你们来到这个图书馆
I, I've invited you here into the library
来解答一个非常深奥的谜团。
to answer for you a mystery very profound.
壁炉里的火正熊熊燃烧。
The fire, it is roaring in the grate.
管家正在倒雪利酒。
The butler, he is serving the sherry.
雾气笼罩着这片沼泽地，环绕着这座我们聚集的孤寂庄园。
The fog, it is thick over the marshes that surrounds this lonely manor house where we have all congregated.
内斯巴。
Nesbah.
那我想揭示的是什么呢？
And what is it I wish to reveal?
当然是一个非常离奇的谜团。
Why, a mystery very strange.
为什么一位英国作家的小说销量能超过二十亿册？
How is it that one English writer has sold more than 2,000,000,000 copies of her novels?
这说明了她的时代什么呢？
What does it say about her laughing times?
在她去世近五十年后的今天，我们仍然阅读她的小说，观看改编的影视作品，这又说明了我们什么呢？
What does it say about us that we still read and watch adaptations of her novels even now almost fifty years after her death?
我说的当然是阿加莎·克里斯蒂夫人。
I talk, of course, of madame Agatha Christie.
而要解释她，就需要运用一些细腻的推理，以及逻辑思考的过程。
And to explain her, it requires the application of the little graces, the process of the thought logique.
但当然，如果我没有一个搭档，一个固执的盎格鲁撒克逊人，我就不配做赫尔克里·波洛了。
But, of course, I would not be acule Poirot if I did not have a sidekick, a bone headed Anglo Saxon.
多米尼克·桑德布鲁克，当然，
Dominic Sandbrook, that was, of course,
阿加莎·克里斯蒂笔下伟大的虚构人物，大卫·苏切特。
Agatha Christie's great fictional creation, David Suchet.
所以，汤姆，汤姆，你告诉我，如果我没理解错的话，这就是我扑向你，把手指掐进你脖子，大喊‘你这个该死的多管闲事的外国人’之类的时刻。
So, Tom, Tom, this is tell me if I'm true to the spirit of that, this is the point at which I launch myself at you, sink my fingers into your neck, and shout, you damned interfering foreigner or something like that.
不。
No.
我更像把你当成黑斯廷斯上尉那种角色。
I was thinking of you more as kind of captain Hastings.
好吧，你显然这么想。
Well, clearly you do.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得挺合适的。
I think suit.
我觉得我自己是那个凶手。
I think of myself as the murderer.
嗯，
Well,
当然，这正是阿加莎·克里斯蒂喜欢玩的那种把戏。
of course, these are exactly the kind of tricks that Agatha Christie loves to play.
没错。
That's right.
所以汤姆，我们一开始就应该说清楚，因为我们谈论的是——我觉得可以合理地说，至少在商业上，她是英国最成功的作家，可能也是二十世纪全世界最成功的作家。
So what we should what we should say right at the beginning, Tom, because we are talking about the I think we can reasonably say, certainly in commercial terms, the single most successful British writer, probably the single most successful writer of any country in the twentieth century.
但令人惊讶的是，还是有一些人没读过她的书，但也许想读。
But amazingly, there will be some people who haven't read her books, but maybe want to.
所以我们一开始就应该说，剧透警告，是的。
So we should probably say at the beginning that as a spoiler alert Yeah.
我想我们肯定会剧透很多凶手和结局之类的。
That we will be giving away, I imagine, a lot of the, a lot of the culprits and the denouements and so on.
对。
Yep.
但，是的，这是个很棒的话题，毫不掩饰地说。
But, yeah, it's a great Unapologetically.
毫不掩饰。
Unapologetically.
汤姆，这是个很棒的话题，因为我们之前聊过夏洛特·库姆斯。
It's a great subject, Tom, because we did Charlotte Combs before.
我们聊过詹姆斯·邦德。
We did James Bond.
我觉得阿加莎·克里斯蒂，她比柯南·道尔和伊恩·弗莱明的销量高出太多了，这真的很了不起。
And I think Agatha Christie I mean, it's extraordinary that she outsold both Conan Doyle and, Ian Fleming by a colossal margin.
你知道，人们总想统计她卖了多少本书，但那可是数以亿计，而且是用不同语言出版的。
You know, it's this one of these things people try to calculate the number of books sold, but we're talking about hundreds of millions in different languages.
而且你用那种很棒的口音念的，我猜那是比利时口音吧。
And you did it in your splendid kind of belt I I assume that's a Belgian accent.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Is.
对。
Yes.
当然，在法国很受欢迎。
Of course, popular in France.
在法国特别受欢迎。
Incredibly popular in France.
他们有自己独立的改编版本，而且法国的文学评论家，我们可能接下来会聊到，对她评价非常高。
They have their own separate adaptations, and French literary critics, as we will probably discuss, have have written glowing tributes to her.
所以认真对待她是很有道理的。
So makes sense to take her seriously.
我在博德利图书馆查了一下，显然她是有史以来被翻译最多的个人作者。
I checked in the Bodleian, and apparently, she is the most translated individual author of all time.
我完全相信这一点。
I can well believe that.
所以比莎士比亚还多，或者
So more than Shakespeare or
嗯，我想比莎士比亚更容易翻译。
Well, easier to translate than Shakespeare, I imagine.
对。
Yeah.
而且更容易理解，可能对学习英语的人也很有帮助。
And more accessible, which and and probably very good if you're learning, also if you're learning English.
没错。
Right.
所以这引出一个问题，我相信我们接下来会讨论到，那就是这种受欢迎程度是否反映了英国在二十世纪的全球文化影响力？
So that's a question which I'm sure we'll come to is is that popularity reflective of the global cultural power that Britain had in the twentieth century?
这个问题问得好。
That's a good question.
我确实查过。
I did.
我们肯定会聊到这个的。
I'm sure we'll come to that.
我还想说，阿加莎·克里斯蒂，我是说，这绝对是桑德布鲁克式的经典话题。
I would also say that that Agatha Christie is I mean, it's a classic Sandbrook subject.
她是一个非常非常受欢迎的人物，但常常被那些自以为是的都市精英看不起，多米尼克，你正是跟他们对着干的人。
So a hugely popular hugely popular figure who tends to be looked down on by the the sneery metropolitan elites that you, Dominic, stand firm against.
对，没错。
Well, yeah.
我很高兴你这么说，因为几年前，我是说，大概有两位听众可能还记得。
I mean, I'm glad you say that because some years ago, I mean, about two listeners may remember this.
我在BBC做过一个系列节目，他们最后把它叫做《让我们娱乐你》。
I did a series on a BBC called which they ended up calling Let Us Entertain You.
这是在我劝他们别用《多米尼克·桑布鲁克的快乐岛》这个名字之后的事了，他们原本打算用那个标题。
This was after I persuaded them not to call it Dominic Sandbrook's Pleasure Island, which was their which was their original title.
那个，我是说，想象一下被困在……
That, I mean That Imagine being trapped by
一场暴风雨困在了多米尼克·桑布鲁克的快乐岛上。
a storm on Dominic Sambrooke's Pleasure Island.
一个可怕的……
A terrifying
杀人狂魔在逃。
homicidal maniac on the loose.
太可怕了。
Terrible.
跟你聊斯坦利·鲍德温。
Talking to you about Stanley Baldwin.
对。
Yeah.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
想象一下。
Imagine.
没有叫那个名字。
Didn't call it that.
基本上是关于二十世纪的英国文化、英国人的想象力，以及它在海外的传播。
And it was basically about British culture in the twentieth century, the British imagination, and its export overseas.
我为此写了一本配套的书，那本书叫《专栏作家》。
And I wrote a tie in book and and for that called columnist.
我一直在等你用“《卫报》专栏作家”这个说法。
I they I I was waiting for you to take use the phrase Guardian columnist.
当然。
Of course.
这不就来了。
And there it is.
因为主持人这是在玩多米尼克·桑德布鲁克宾果游戏。
Because the railroad's playing Dominic Sandbrook bingo.
宾果。
Bingo.
对。
Yeah.
因为如果你在《卫报》网站和他们的评论区搜索，会有大量攻击阿加莎·克里斯蒂的言论，说她怀旧。
Because if you because if you search on the Guardian website and their comment pages, there are tons of attacks on Agatha Christie saying, it's nostalgic.
说她势利。
It's snobbish.
说这说那的。
It's this, that, and the other.
但实际上，在书里，这些都不是真的。
All of which actually at the time, in the books, it's not.
她并不怀旧，因为故事设定在当下，她也不势利，因为她并没有看不起所谓的下层阶级。
It's not nostalgic because it's set very much in the here and now, and it's not snobbish because she doesn't look down on, as it were, the lower orders.
所以我说，这正是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克梦寐以求的题材，而你在这方面特别擅长。
So as I say, the dream Dominic Sandbrook subject and you're brilliant at this.
你特别擅长挖掘那些广受欢迎却被人看不起的人物，而且你确实说服了我，就像你在《大英梦工厂》里做的那样，让我觉得我们应该做这个题材。
You're absolutely brilliant at this at picking up on hugely popular figures who are looked down upon and certainly persuading me as you did in the Great British Dream Factory and and persuaded me that we should do this subject.
汤姆，这是不是意味着有一天我们可以做一期关于凯瑟琳·库克森的播客？
Does that mean, Tom, that one day we can do a podcast about Catherine Cookson?
这个我不太确定。
I'm not sure about that.
这个我不太确定。
I'm not sure about that.
不。
No.
因为我觉得她不像阿加莎·克里斯蒂那样，她的名声和受欢迎程度，对，
Because I don't think she's I don't think I I agree that Agatha Christie, her fame and her popularity Yeah.
本身就是一种。
Is in itself.
你知道，这些都是历史上引人入胜的细节，值得研究。
You know, these are these are historically intriguing details that are worthy of study.
我也觉得，她本人以及她与作品之间的关系，本身就很有意思。
I also think that that in and of herself, her her relationship to her work is very interesting.
嗯，汤姆，她可是了解二十世纪的一个绝佳窗口。
Well, she's a good the twentieth century, Tom, she's a great window into the twentieth century.
我今天早些时候正好在读约翰·兰彻斯特的一篇文章。
I was only reading there the the earlier today, an essay by John Lanchester.
你肯定很欣赏他吧。
You must be a big admirer.
我是说，约翰·兰彻斯特是个很厉害的评论家。
I mean, he's a brilliant critic, John Lanchester.
他在文章里说，克里斯蒂的写作主题之一就是二十世纪。
And he says in that, one of Christie's subjects is the twentieth century.
而且，确实，你可以从她的书里看到这一点，从《斯泰尔斯庄园奇案》——1920年在美国首次出版——到她最后那些书，那些书其实写得不太好，是七十年代出版的。
And, actually, you can trace it through her books from the mysterious affair of styles, which was first published in 1920 in America, to the last books, which are not as good, really, published in the nineteen seventies.
但你可以通过小说追踪社会和文化的变化。
But you can track the social and cultural changes through the fiction.
这些变化非常微妙，但确实存在。
And they're very they're very subtle, but they're there.
这真的是一个思考二十世纪英国文化的很有意思的方式。
And it's a really interesting way to to think about British culture in the twentieth
世纪。
century.
顶尖评论家，你为《伦敦书评》撰稿，他们也会同意你的观点，对吧？没错。
Top critics you write for the London Review of Books agree with you, then Exactly.
这绝对是个好话题。
Absolutely onto a winner here.
是的。
We are.
是的。
We are.
我们既讨好了高雅的读者，也讨好了大众读者。
We're we're pleasing the highbrows and the lowbrows.
就是这样
That's how
我们喜欢这样。
we like it.
是的。
It is.
所以我觉得，我的意思是，我同意。
So I think that I mean, I I agree.
我们把阿加莎·克里斯蒂当作一面映照二十世纪的镜子来看吧，但最好还是先看看阿加莎·克里斯蒂本人的生平，因为我觉得那里有些线索。
Let's let's look at Agatha Christie as a mirror held up to the twentieth century, but probably it would be best to look at the life of of of Agatha Christie herself because I think there are clues there.
哦，你打算——我希望你会一直这样插话，因为那样对听众来说一点都不会烦。
Oh, you're gonna I hope you're gonna keep slipping into this because that will make that will not be irritating at all for the audience.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得线索不在那儿。
I think that there are clues in No.
不。
No.
在她的成长经历里。
In her in her upbringing.
还有两件，我觉得是她生命中两件特别重大的事情，似乎……
And the two two I think two particularly seismic events in her life that seem to have
我现在是不是得像黑斯廷斯那样问你了？
Do I have to ask through her I have to ask hastings style now.
波洛，那会是什么呢？
What what could they be, Poirot?
我的朋友。
My friend.
嗯，我觉得第一件就是她和她父母的关系。
Well, I I think the first is her her relationship to her parents.
所以她出生于1890年，是的。
So she's born 1890 Yeah.
在托基。
In Torquay.
对。
Yeah.
英国里维埃拉。
The English Riviera.
英国里维埃拉。
The English Riviera.
以其豪华酒店而闻名。
Famous for its brilliant hotels.
而且实际上，德文郡海岸的酒店是她小说中一个相当常见的主题。
And and actually hotels along the Devon Coast are quite a theme of her fiction.
确实如此。
They are.
但她的父母，她父亲是美国人，她母亲是英国人。
But her parents are so her father is American, and her her mother is British.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
他们，他们，他们，他们，他们……
They're they're they're they're they're
是的。
yes.
来自爱尔兰。
From Ireland.
正是。
Exactly.
但是，是的，她受的教育非常优雅体面。
But but, yeah, she's very it's a very kind of genteel upbringing.
所以我觉得他们家，你知道的，有暖房、网球场，还有佣人。
So I think they have, you know, conservatories and a tennis court and maids.
还有书房什么的。
And libraries and things.
对。
Yeah.
就是这些东西。
All this sort of stuff.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得他们算是那种上层中产阶级吧。
Sort of upper middle class, I suppose you'd say they are.
但是后来，当阿加莎，她叫阿加莎·米勒。
But then when her when Agatha is and she's Agatha Miller.
她11岁的时候，她父亲去世了，他们基本上就陷入了经济困境。
When she is 11, her father dies, and they are left financially embarrassed, basically.
所以，是的。
So there is Yes.
就是说，虽然他们不至于穷困潦倒，但对于习惯了上中产阶级生活的人来说，要开始精打细算，做这些事，确实挺难受的。
There's a kind of I mean, it's not it's not like they become poverty stricken, but it's it's uncomfortable for someone used to upper middle class life that they have to start economizing and all these kind of things.
这显然在她心里留下了深刻的印象，让她明白了金钱有多重要，社会等级有多重要，这些都会反映在她的作品里。
And that clearly leaves in in in in her mind the memory of what of of how important money is, of how significant social gradations are, all these kind of things that will feed into her fiction.
我觉得你说得非常到位，Dom。
I think that's very very astute, Dom.
我觉得，嗯，
I think Do
你觉得那些灰色脑细胞，
you think the little gray cells there
我觉得那些灰色脑细胞确实得到了验证，因为她确实意识到了这种不稳定性。
have I think the little gray cells have have been absolutely vindicated because I think, she absolutely is aware of the instability.
虽然对上中产阶级生活说这个可能有点奇怪，但确实有很多人都在努力维持表面上的体面，对吧。
And it might seem an odd thing to say about upper middle class life, but, of course, so many people are sort of trying to keep up appearances as it were Yeah.
并且扮演着别人期待的角色，这是阿加莎·克里斯蒂作品中的一个重要主题。
And playing playing the parts expected of them, which is a big theme of Agatha Christie's books.
而且，就像你说的，想想她11岁的时候，那是1901年。
And if you think as you say, what are we when she's 11, nineteen o one.
那是爱德华时代的英国，你知道，要维持体面，要装样子，这是那个时代的特点，也是历史中反复出现的主题。
So Edwardian England, you know, keeping up appearances, putting on you know, this is the era of the Kaiser having their own deck shoes, very much a favorite theme of the rest of history.
而且我认为，这支撑了很多东西，20世纪中上层阶级的社会焦虑是她小说世界中的一个关键部分。
And and and and I think that that underpins so much that the social anxiety of the upper middle classes in the twentieth century is a is a key part of the of the sort of world of her fiction.
但同时，那种一切都有可能
But also that sense that everything can
消失，融化，消散的感觉。
Go away, can can melt and dissolve.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，当你提到BBC最初想把你的系列叫做《多米尼克岛：快乐岛》的时候，我就觉得这个细节我永远都忘不了。
Well and when I when you mentioned that the BBC originally wanted to call your series Dominic Islands Pleasure Island, which is that's a detail I will never forget.
你知道吗，他们还想叫它——
You know what they also wanted
汤姆，他们想叫它什么？
to call it, Tom?
不知道。
No.
好吧，他们一度想叫它，我没开玩笑。
Well, they wanted to call it at one point, they wanted to call it I'm not kidding.
他们真的想叫它《为了你的快乐》。
They really wanted to call it for your pleasure.
我说过
I said
这就像杜蕾斯的广告。
It's like a Durex advert.
我说的就是这个意思。
That's exactly what I said.
我说过，这就像男厕所里机器上写的那种话。
I said that's the that's written on machines in the gentleman's toilets.
我是说，你不能这么叫它。
I mean, you cannot call it that.
好的。
Okay.
但当你提到的时候，我说，想象一下被困在那个岛上，和一个杀人狂魔一起。
But when when you when you mentioned I said, imagine being trapped on that island with a homicidal maniac on the lease.
当然，他们从来都不是杀人狂魔。
Of course, they're never homicidal maniacs.
其实她并不是那种作家。
Is that she's not actually that that kind of writer.
不是。
No.
他们总是普通人，对吧？这就是关键所在。
They are always people I mean, that's the whole thing, isn't it?
他们通常来自中产阶级，而且他们都有所隐瞒。
That they are people generally from the middle classes, and they are hiding things.
对。
Yeah.
所以，说她那些书是偏执、势利的书是不对的，就像她的一些批评者所说的那样，因为正如你所说，凶手并不是那种害怕下层阶级的人。
That's why it's wrong to say that they're that they're kind of paranoid snobbish books as some of her critics have done because the killers, as you say, are are not you know, there's no fear of the lower orders in the books.
恐惧来自内部，来自那种……对。
The fear comes from within from within the sort of Yeah.
中产阶级内部。
The middle classes.
其实你说得完全对，汤姆，人们往往是被秘密所驱使，被一种持续的、啃噬内心的焦虑所驱动，担心失去什么，担心被揭穿之类的，还有钱。
Actually, you're completely right, Tom, that people are often motivated by by secrets, by a kind of grinding, gnawing anxiety about losing, about being exposed or something like that, and my money.
还有
And my
钱是阿加莎·克里斯蒂书中凶手最大的动机，远远超过其他因素。
money is by by far the single biggest motivation But of Killers and Agatha Christie's books.
但第二大动机就是性欲。
But the second would be sexual desire.
还有嫉妒，或者被人拒绝之类的。
Out with jealousy or people being spurned or whatever.
而这当然就是阿加莎·克里斯蒂经历的第二次重大打击。
And that, of course, is the second terrible experience that Agatha Christie goes through.
我说阿加莎·克里斯蒂而不是阿加莎·米勒，是因为她嫁给了一个叫阿奇博尔德的男人。
And I say Agatha Christie rather than Agatha Miller because she marries a guy called Archibald.
没错。
That's right.
阿奇·克里斯蒂，他挺帅的，对吧？
Archie Christie, who is very dashing, isn't he?
她是在托基附近的一个舞会上遇见他的，我记得是1912年。
So she meets him at a a ball, outside Torquay in, I think, 1912.
我查一下我在博德利图书馆的笔记。
Checking my notes from the Bodleian.
很好。
Very good.
他在1913年求婚了。
He proposes in 1913.
当然，1914年战争爆发了，他加入了空军。
And, of course, in 1914, the war breaks out, and he is in the, air force.
他要去……
He's going to
他在皇家飞行……
He's in the Royal Flying
军团。
Corps.
没错。
Exactly.
他真是个先驱，而且在第一次世界大战中，这也是件非常帅气的事情。
He's a real pioneer, but also that's a he's that's a very dashing thing to be in the great war.
我是说，她留了胡子，
I mean, she's done mustache,
我猜。
I assume.
胡子。
Mustache.
我觉得他
I think he
我想象他留着胡子。
I imagine him with a mustache.
我把他想象成那种，嗯，怎么说呢。
I imagine him as a sort of yeah.
好吧，在克里斯蒂的想象里，尤其是在神话传说中，他因为二十年代的行为而成了一个相当风流的人物，但他当时肯定是个非常抢手的对象。
Well, he he becomes quite a sort of rakish figure in the kind of Christie imagination, obviously, in mythology because of his behavior in the nineteen twenties, but he must have been a tremendous catch.
所以阿加莎一直非常害羞，而且总是特别害羞，有点书呆子气。
So Agatha had been a very shy and always was incredibly shy, kind of bookish.
她没上过学。
She didn't go to school.
她算是自学成才的。
She was kind of self taught.
她基本上就是，你知道，在父亲的书房里读各种书。
She sort of, you know, reads all these books in her father's library.
她也去参加派对什么的。
She goes to parties and things.
有人曾经对她说，或者对她母亲说，你女儿舞跳得很美，但她不知道怎么说话。
Somebody says to her at one point or says to her mother, your daughter is a beautiful dancer, but she doesn't know how to talk.
但显然，阿奇·克里斯蒂是个很抢手的对象。
But, obviously, Archie Christie is a great catch.
所以他们结婚了。
So they're married.
她在第一次世界大战期间做志愿护士，这
She works as a as a volunteer nurse in the First World War, which
我觉得这非常重要。
I think is massively important.
她在那儿学到了毒药的知识，但
Where she learns about poisons and She learns about poisons, but
而且她还要清理，你知道的，给军人做清洁。
also and She's she's clearing up, you know, cleaning up servicemen.
那些活儿。
Stuff.
对。
Yeah.
浑身是血。
Covered in blood.
我是说，有一次她接受了一个采访。
I mean, talks at one point she gave an interview.
她为数不多的采访之一就是给帝国战争博物馆做的。
One of the only interviews she ever gave was the Imperial War Museum.
在那次采访中，她谈到基本上是在捡人的碎片，然后，你知道，把它们放进
And she talked in that about picking up basically bits of people and, you know, putting them into
炉子里。
the furnace.
但那种血腥场面并不是小说的特点，对吧？
But that kind of, I mean, that kind of gore is not a feature of the novels, is it?
对。
No.
而且如果真是那样的话，也不会成功的。
And it wouldn't it wouldn't be successful if it if it was actually.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得死亡总是真的很……
I think it's the your the the the death is always really
有……
There is
没有汉尼拔·莱克特。
no Hannibal Lecter.
绝对没有。
There's no definitely not.
但确实是这样。
But yeah.
所以，她写……我的意思是，我们可以稍后再回到小说，但她的第一本书《斯泰尔斯庄园奇案》1920年在美国出版，然后在1921年在英国出版。
So then she she writes I mean, we can come back to the fiction in a second, but she her her first book, Mysterious Affair at Stars, 1920 in America and then published in 1921 in in Britain.
那本书介绍了波洛。
And that introduces Poirot.
波洛。
Poirot.
我觉得我们可以回头再聊波洛，把他当作一个难民角色来讨论。
And we can come back to Poirot, I think, as well as as a refugee character.
但接着她在二十年代写了一系列的书。
But then so she writes a series of books in the nineteen twenties.
我觉得关于为什么是二十年代，其实有很多可以说的。
I think there's so much actually to be said about why the twenties?
为什么阿加莎·克里斯蒂在这个时间点会成功呢？
Why is it that Agatha Christie is successful at this point
在那个时间点？
in time?
是什么？
What is?
你想现在聊这个，还是直接进入性的话题？
Do wanna do that now, or do you wanna get on to the sex?
好的。
Okay.
我们先聊性这个话题，之后再回来。
Let's get on to sex, and then we'll come back.
汤姆·汤姆·霍兰德，我知道他怎么想的。
Tom Tom Holland, I know how his mind works.
所以她是个相当成功的作家。
So she's quite a successful writer.
她的《罗杰疑案》大获成功，这可以说是史上最伟大的侦探小说了。
She's had a great hit with the murder of Roger Aykroyd, which is arguably the single greatest detective novel of all time.
她36岁，和亚奇住在伯克郡的桑宁代尔，亚奇是个股票经纪人，那里是典型的中产阶级住宅区。
She's 36 years old, and she and Archie, he's a stockbroker, and they live in Sunningdale in Berkshire, Real kind of home county stockbroker belt.
而且真的就是那种你会在周日晚上ITV犯罪剧里看到的一切。
And real kind of everything that you would expect on a Sunday evening ITV crime drama.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
伦敦周边地区，股票经纪人
Home counties, stockbroker
对。
Yeah.
还有强烈的性嫉妒。
And seething sexual jealousy.
是的。
Yes.
嗯，这正是你显然想聊的话题，汤姆。
I well, this is and this is what you clearly wanted to get on to, Tom.
所以他们有点渐行渐远了。
So they've had they've kinda grown apart.
他整天不是打高尔夫就是待在城里。
He plays spends all his time playing golf and in the city.
然后基本上他们吵了一架，他刚跟她说，我其实爱上了我的高尔夫球伴，她叫南希·尼尔。
And he basically they have a row, and he's just said to her, I'm actually I've fallen in love with my golfing partner, who's called Nancy Neil.
汤姆，有个超棒的事实是，我们的一位听众跟南希·尼尔是亲戚。
Now a fantastic fact, Tom, is that one of our listeners is related to Nancy Neil.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
因为他发现后给我发了条消息。
Because he sent me a message when found out.
他叫约翰·布朗宁。
He's called John Browning.
他是Rest Is History俱乐部的会员，你也可以在restishistorypod.com加入。
He's a member of the restishistory club, which you too can join at restishistorypod.com.
所以他给了我们一个绝佳的机会来宣传我们的俱乐部。
So so he gave us a brilliant opportunity for advertising our club.
他还说，南希·尼尔是那个第三者，她是我外婆的表亲。
Also, he says, Nancy Neal was the other woman, and she was my maternal grandmother's cousin.
天哪。
Goodness.
她们俩都是铁路官员的女儿，她们的父亲是位高级铁路官员，负责维多利亚女王从伦敦到卡莱尔的铁路行程，当时女王要去巴尔莫勒尔堡。
They were both the daughters of railway officials, and their and their father was a senior railway officer who took charge of queen Victoria's railway travel from London to Carlisle when she went to Balmoral.
我记得我祖母说过，她表姐的丈夫之前娶过阿加莎·克里斯蒂，但她从没提过那桩丑闻，不过这也难怪。
I remember my grandmother saying that her cousin's husband had previously been married to Agatha Christie, but she never mentioned the scandal, but probably not surprisingly.
所以，总之，是的。
So anyway, yes.
所以南希·尼尔就是那个第三者。
So Nancy Neil is the other woman.
而在1926年12月3日晚上，阿加莎上楼去亲吻她七岁的女儿道晚安。
And Agatha, on the night of the 12/03/1926, she goes upstairs to kiss their seven year old daughter good night.
然后她下楼，上了车，我记得是辆莫里斯。
And then she comes back downstairs, and she gets in the car, which is, I think, a Morris.
然后她就消失了。
And then she disappears.
太神奇了。
Amazing.
车子被发现遗弃了。
The car is found abandoned.
对。
Yeah.
在一个类似采石坑之类的地方。
By sort of gravel pit or something.
对。
Yeah.
我记不清了。
I can't remember.
一个黏土坑之类的地方。
A clay pit or something of that kind.
十天过去了，这件事成了巨大的媒体轰动。
And ten days go by, and it's this colossal media sensation.
所以人们把报纸寄过去。
So people send the newspapers.
当然，那正是大众报刊的鼎盛时期，比如哈姆斯沃思报业帝国之类的。
Of course, it's the heyday of the kind of popular press of the sort of the the the Harmsworth press empire and so on.
所以他们都掺和进来了。
So they all get involved.
他们雇了多萝西·L·塞耶斯，一个竞争对手，去她家找线索。
They hire Dorothy l Sayers, a rival to visit her house looking for clues.
他们还请了灵媒，对吧？
Psychics they get, don't they?
所以阿瑟·柯南·道尔，我的意思是，他咨询了
So Arthur Conan Doyle, very I mean, he consults
一个灵媒，还有仙女。
a medium fairies.
对。
Yeah.
他咨询灵媒，但我是说，阿瑟·柯南·道尔在他这个人生阶段，连穿什么裤子都要问灵媒。
He consults but, I mean, Arthur Conan Doyle at this stage in his life consults a medium to tell him what pair of trousers to put on.
所以，我是说
So, I mean
对。
Yeah.
媒体轰动一时。
Massive press sensation.
很多人说这是炒作，或者说她死了，或者阿奇杀了她，或者谁知道呢？
A lot of people say it's a stunt or that she's dead or Archie has murdered her or, you know, who knows?
然后十天后，众所周知，她出现在哈罗盖特的斯旺海卓酒店，用的是化名。
And then ten days later, famously, she turns up in the, Swan Hydro Hotel in Harrogate, under an assumed name.
她基本上这十天都在打桥牌、跳舞，和其他客人一起做这些事。
And she's basically spent the last ten days playing bridge and dancing and doing all this stuff with the other guests.
但奇怪的是，汤姆，你可能知道，她用的化名是尼尔夫人。
But the weird thing, Tom, as you may know, is the assumed name she takes on is missus Neil.
对。
Yeah.
也就是说，她用自己的名字来命名另一个女人，人们一直没搞清楚这到底是不是故意要让人难堪。
She in other words, she names herself after the other woman, and people have never worked out really whether it it was designed to embarrass.
那你觉得呢？
So what do you think?
因为关于这件事有很多种说法，对吧？
Because there are many theories on this, aren't there?
而且这些说法可能已经有了确切的答案。
And they're maybe conclusively conclusively answered.
这真的
It's really
很难说。
hard to say.
我想可能是某种精神崩溃吧。
Some kind of breakdown, I guess.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
这种崩溃，再加上可能是一种尝试，你懂的，也许她希望她丈夫能来救她，或者突然醒悟之类的。
A breakdown coupled with possibly an attempt to you know, maybe she's hoping that her husband will come and kinda rescue her and come to his senses or something.
或者也许这是她开始做的事情，一旦开始了，你懂的，在那种疯狂的瞬间，对。
Or maybe it's something she embarked on, and then once she'd embarked on it, you you know, in the sort of moment of madness Yeah.
然后她就骑虎难下了。
Then she was stuck with it.
她不可能两天后就反悔，她只能想，天哪，我得硬着头皮撑下去，继续这样好几个星期。
She couldn't kind of, after two days, say she just thought, god, I'm gonna have to brazen this out and carry on doing this for weeks.
我不知道。
I don't know.
这没法说。
It's impossible.
也许还有
Also maybe
她从来没提过那件事。
she never talked about that.
她写了那么多这种戏剧性的故事，结果自己却陷入了其中。
The degree to which she writes about these kind of dramas, and then she finds herself kinda trapped in one.
三角恋，这经常是一个主题。
The love triangle, which is so often a theme.
好的。
Okay.
那么，这就是我对此的看法。
So so here is my here's my theory on this.
为了准备这个，我读了她两部最伟大的作品，《尼罗河上的惨案》。
So in preparation for this, I read two of her her greatest works, Murder on the Nile.
是《尼罗河上的惨案》，汤姆。
Death on the Nile, Tom.
抱歉。
Sorry.
《尼罗河上的惨案》。
Death on the Nile.
天哪。
Gosh.
还有《阳光下的罪恶》。
And Twirl under the cover.
《阳光下的罪恶》。
Evil under Evil under the sun.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这两部作品大概写于1941年前后。
And and they both written, I think, kind of 3941, something like that.
是的。
Mean Yes.
所以大约是在第二次世界大战初期。
So around the beginning of the of the of the second world war.
严重剧透警告。
And massive spoiler alerts.
如果你还没读过或看过，而且你想看的话，就把这段跳过吧。
If you haven't read them or seen them and you would like to, just blank this bit out.
但基本上，这两个故事的剧情都是围绕一对情侣展开的。
But, basically, the plot of both of them revolve around a couple.
对。
Yep.
丈夫、未婚夫或者男朋友好像跟一个更迷人、更有钱、更有魅力的女人跑了。
The husband or the the the fiancee or the the male partner seems to run off with a much more glamorous, wealthier, sexually attractive woman Yeah.
然后那个女人死了，被谋杀了。
Who then dies, who get who gets murdered.
是的。
Yes.
结果发现，从头到尾，那个男的一直对他的原配很忠诚。
And it turns out that all along, the male partner has has actually stayed faithful to his original female partner.
对。
Yeah.
而且他们两个是联手去杀人的。
And both of them have have teamed up together to commit the murder.
这是个骗局，目的是杀掉你以为抢走他的那个第三者。
It's a trick to kill the the the the woman that you think is the the other woman who's stolen him.
对。
Yep.
而且实际上，从头到尾，死的是那个第三者。
And, actually, all along, it's it's the other woman who ends up dead.
我觉得这真的很有意思，用我这点小聪明来看的话。
I mean, that's kind of very, very interesting, it seems to me, applying my little grace else.
我把波洛找回来了。
I've got Poirot back.
太好了。
Great.
但当然，你知道，他们也是杀人犯。
But also, of course, you know, they are murderers.
所以这里面有一定的愿望实现的感觉，但也许还有一种内疚感，因为你在参与这种愿望实现。
So there's a certain degree of kind of wish fulfillment there, but also a a feeling of guilt perhaps that you are engaging in the wish fulfillment.
我是不是太心理分析了？
Am I being am I being too psychologically
汤姆，其实我又要说了，我们现在录这期节目的时候，有人在推特上说，每当我说“汤姆，你真是太慷慨了”之类的话，意思就是我觉得你在胡说八道。
Tom, I I actually once again, I now we're recording this on a day where somebody on Twitter said, whenever I'm I I say you're being very generous, Tom, or something like that, it means I think you're talking absolute rubbish.
但实际上，我觉得你说得完全对。
But, actually, I think you're you're dead right.
我以前没想过这一点，但我觉得这两本书里对凶手的刻画，无论是《死亡》还是《然后》，都挺双刃剑的，不是吗？
I haven't thought of that before, but I think it's so the portrait of the killers in both those books, death and then not, it's a it's very kind of double edged, isn't it?
因为那是一种愿望实现，但同时对那种放荡不羁的角色又有一种恐惧，是的。
Because the, it is wishful film, but at the same time, there is a dread of the of the character of this sort of raffish Yeah.
你知道，那种有性魅力的男性。
You know, sexually attractive male.
我觉得
I feel
在《阳光下的罪恶》里，那个最终被揭露参与谋杀的女人，却被描绘得非常正面。
the in in Evil Under the Sun, the the the woman who turns out to be complicit in the murder, but is presented in a kind of very positive light.
但她不晒黑。
But she she doesn't tan.
她不去
She doesn't go
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yeah.
书呆子气。
Bookish.
对。
Yeah.
所以你觉得她有点像自画像，是吗？
So she's a bit of a self portrait, you think?
有一点。
A bit.
不过，当然，阿加莎·克里斯蒂也以冲浪者闻名，不是吗？
Except, of course, that Agatha Christie is also famous as a surfer, isn't she?
所以，冲浪者？
So A surfer?
对。
Yeah.
我没听错吧？
Did I hear that correctly?
对。
Yeah.
就像，就像那种冲浪者，意思是
Like a like a surfer as in
就像海滩男孩那样。
As in the Beach Boys.
就像加州的大苏尔那样的冲浪。
As in Big Sur or something in California.
对。
Yeah.
有一张她抱着冲浪板的著名照片。
There's a famous photo of her clutching a surfboard.
是吗？
Is that?
我从来没见过。
I've never seen this.
好吧，你可是阿加莎·克里斯蒂的头号历史学家。
Well, you're the well You're the top historian of Agatha Christie.
你一定见过
You must have
见过？好吧，我显然不是。
seen Well, I'm clearly not.
嗯，也许是我记错了。
Well, maybe I'm imagining that.
我，我，我，我去，我去
I I I I'll go I'll
查一下。
go and check that.
我觉得她确实冲过浪。
I thought I think she did.
但我觉得那种书卷气、几乎有点不起眼的形象，对。
But I think I think the the the idea of the kind of the bookish, almost mousy Yeah.
皮肤白，没什么魅力，穷得像教堂里的老鼠，结果却守住了自己的男人，还是个杀人犯。
White skinned, uncharismatic, poor kind of church mouse who then turns out to be, you know, to have have have kept her man and to be a murderer.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我只是在想，也许在某种程度上
I just wonder if perhaps there's a certain degree
有一种不寻常的文化氛围，这又把我们带回了二十年代，也就是这本书开始的时代背景。我觉得那种小规模的特质对它们的成功非常重要，还有那些角色。
of culture that's unusual for That takes us back to the climates of the twenties when the book started because the sort of small scale nature of them, I think, is really important to their success, and that's those sort of characters.
波洛本人也是这样，汤姆，从某种意义上说，他当然在很多方面都很夸张。
So Poirot himself is is kind of like that, Tom, in the sense that, of course, he's he's larger than life in lots of ways.
但我总是想到波洛，所以波洛，你——
But I always think with Poirot so Poirot Do you
要不要给那些可能没读过小说的人描述一下他？
wanna just describe him for people who may not have read novel?
他是什么样的？
What is he?
大概五英尺四英寸左右吧。
Five foot four or something.
他的头像鸡蛋一样。
He's Head like an egg.
他非常圆润。
He's he's very round.
他的头像鸡蛋一样。
He has a head like an egg.
他是个比利时难民。
He is a Belgian refugee.
在1920年，把他设定为比利时难民是非常大胆的。
To make him a Belgian refugee is so daring in 1920.
今天，当你看到大卫·苏切特演的波洛时，他看起来像个怀旧、怀旧的人物，但这就相当于今天把他设定为叙利亚难民或乌克兰难民。
Today, when you watch the David Suchets, he seems a nostalgic backward looking figure, but it's the equivalent to making him, you know, a Syrian refugee or an Ukrainian refugee today.
对。
Mhmm.
他是个当代人物，非常当代。
He's a contemporary he's a very contemporary figure.
他住在一套全新的公寓里。
He lives in a brand new flat.
他的公寓经常被描述为一切都几何排列。
His flat is often sort of, you know, it's described as all geometrically arranged.
这一点在苏谢那里体现得非常非常好。
Which they get very, very well in the in the souche.
确实如此。
They do.
完美。
Perfectly.
非常完美。
They're perfectly.
一切都必须恰到好处。
Everything has to be just so.
他完全没有英雄气概。
He's utterly unheroic.
他外表也不讨喜。
He's physically unprepossessing.
他有点害怕划船之类的。
He's he's frightened of kind of paddling
他的鼻子。
his nose.
我记得有一件特别搞笑的事，在《大卫》那部里，他得翻过一个梯磴。
I remember there was a brilliant thing where he had to, in the David one where he had to cross a style.
然后你能看到他，脸上那种惊恐的表情，对。
And and you you could see him, the look of horror Yeah.
在大卫·图什的脸上，然后他就一扭一扭地沿着旁边走下去了。
On David Touche's face, and then he kind of waddles off down the side of the
他总是担心他的漆皮皮鞋，还有他的鞋罩。
He's always worried about getting his his kind of patent leather shoes His spats.
怕弄脏了他的鞋罩。
Dirty in his spats.
但在1920年，这一切都让人耳目一新，因为你熟悉的侦探是夏洛克·福尔摩斯和他的模仿者、对手们。
But in 1920, all of that is really bracing because the detectives that you're used to are Sherlock Holmes and the and his imitators, Sherlock Holmes and his rivals.
所以他们都挺高，鹰钩鼻，穿着粗花呢大衣，总是在荒野上追着猎犬跑。
So they're all sort of quite tall, beaky men in kind of massive tweed coats who are always kind of herring after hounds on moors.
钻下水道。
Down sewers.
对。
Yeah.
或者，比如，他们想在剑桥拿个拳击的蓝色荣誉什么的。
Or or, like, they they they want a blue for pugilism at Cambridge or something.
而波洛完全不是那种人。
And Poirot is absolutely not from that cloth.
所以我一直觉得，他是属于一个时代的侦探，一个一战后的时代，那个时代对男子气概的英雄主义、暴力、英勇的英雄这类东西感到不安。
So he I always think he is a detective for an age, a post First World War age, that is nervous about kind of masculine heroics, and about violence and about the gallant hero and all those kinds of things.
但他也是个局外人。
But he's also an outsider.
他是个局外人。
He's an outsider.
绝对是的。
Absolutely.
这就是为什么人们说阿加莎·克里斯蒂的那些话，听起来特别蠢，特别有意思。
And this is why one of the really interesting interestingly foolish things that people say about Agatha Christie is so foolish.
他们说，她排外。
They say, well, she's xenophobic.
但实际上，在克里斯蒂的书里，经常有人会说，那个该死的外国人，他是什么，法国人还是什么的？
But, actually, a time and again in Christie's books, people say, that damn foreigner, what is he, a Frenchman or something?
而这些人要么被塑造成傻瓜，要么就是凶手，要么就被揭露成那种粗鲁的守旧派。
And they are the they look like they're either made to look like fools or they're the murderer or they're exposed as a sort of oafish reactionary.
克里斯蒂在描绘英国性方面非常聪明，常常带着一种锋芒。
Christie is very clever in in her portrayal of Englishness is often, there's a sort of edge to it.
我觉得这也是为什么他在法国这么受欢迎的原因之一。
And I think that's one of the reasons, incidentally, why he's so popular in France.
不仅是波洛这个角色，还有克里斯蒂作为小说家。
Like, Poirot as a character, but also Christie as a novelist.
因为，你知道，如果你是一个……它在很多方面描绘了一幅相当不讨喜的画面。
Because, you know, if you're a it paints, in many ways, quite an unflattering picture
确实如此。
It does.
对。
Yeah.
就是那种英国人的自满、自鸣得意、内向封闭，诸如此类的。
Of kind of British self satisfaction, complacency, introversion, all those kinds of things.
嗯，这让我想到一个很有意思的例子，跟排外没关系，但跟性别歧视有关。
Well, I I it's a very interesting example of this, and it wasn't about xenophobia, but it was about sexism.
对。
Yeah.
昨天看了《阳光下的罪恶》。
Watching Evil Under the Sun yesterday.
我先读了小说，然后看了安迪·霍洛维茨改编的版本。
So I read the novel and then watched the adaptation of it by Andy Horowitz.
非常不错。
Very good.
我和我女儿凯蒂一起看的时候，里面那个被害者，就是那个很迷人的第三者，最后被杀了。
And I was watching it with Katie, my daughter, and the portrayal of the the murderee, the the kind of glamorous other woman who ends up being murdered.
很多人会说，哦，她是个邪恶的角色。
And lots of people say, oh, she's an evil figure.
你知道，她在破坏别人的婚姻。
You know, she's destroying the marriage.
她是个专门勾引男人的女人。
She's a man eater.
她会被杀是活该。
She's going to get murdered.
她罪有应得。
She's going to deserve all she gets.
凯蒂就说，哦，你知道，我不太确定。
And Katie said, oh, you know, I'm not sure about that.
我觉得你不应该
I don't think you should be
多姆，你在自己家里有没有面临被取消的风险？
Were you in danger of being canceled in your own household, Dom?
嗯，她她她确实察觉到了某些东西，你知道，那是性别歧视的。
Well, she she she was picking up on something that that was you know, it was sexist.
那是一种性别歧视的视角。
It was a sexist approach.
因为那是阿加莎·克里斯蒂的作品，而且背景设定在那个年代，所以完全，你知道，你可以想象，是的，这就是你作为观众或读者应该持有的态度。
Because it was Agatha Christie and because it was set when it was, it was entirely you know, you could imagine, yes, this is this is a you know, this is the attitude that you, the viewer or the reader, are meant to have.
但当然，这其实是障眼法，是往你眼睛里撒沙子。
But, of course, this turns out to be sand thrown in your eyes, dust thrown in your eyes.
因为实际上，你知道，波洛说她是受害者。
Because actually, it turns out that, you know, Poirot says she is a victim.
她一直都是受害者。
She's always been a victim.
她并不是什么男人杀手。
She hasn't been a man eater.
她被骗了。
She's been ripped off.
你知道，那些掠夺成性的男人偷走了她所有的钱。
You know, predatory men have stolen all her money.
是的。
And Yeah.
结果呢，你被她骗了，她有点迎合人们的偏见。
It turns, you know, you are she deceives you, and she she kind of panders to people's prejudices.
我觉得完全正确。
I think that's absolutely right.
有点颠覆了这些偏见。
Kinda turns them on the head.
而且她对待英国沙文主义也是这样。
And she does that with with with, kind of British chauvinism as well.
她一次又一次地这样做。
She does it again and again.
我觉得这是人们常说的关于克里斯蒂的一个非常有趣的点。
And I think that's one of the really interesting things that people often say about Christie.
她的书里充满了刻板印象，比如牧师、医生，还有你说的那种吃男人的女人，诸如此类。
Well, her books are full of stereotypes, kind of vicars, doctors, you know, as you say, man eating women, all these kinds of things.
但她经常先给你一个刻板印象。
But so often, she'll feed you the stereotype.
可那其实是个陷阱。
But that's but that that's a trick.
对。
Yeah.
她实际上是在利用你的预期。
And and she's playing actually with your expectations.
她知道你带着很多先入为主的观念，然后她就会突然让你措手不及。
She knows that you you are carrying so much baggage, and then she sort of pulls the rug out from under you.
而且我觉得更有趣的是，她写作的时期是在两次世界大战之间，那是一个社会大变革的时代，当然，她最好的几本书是在四十年代写的，正值二战的动荡时期，还有英国工党政府，也就是艾德礼政府时期。
And I think what's really also interesting in the context of she's writing between the wars in a period of great social change And then, of course, some of her best books in the nineteen forties amid the sort of turmoil of the second world war, and then the labor government in Britain, the the sort of the Atlee government.
这些人一直都觉得脚下的地在动，你根本不知道谁是谁。
All the time, these people are conscious that the sort of plates are shifting under their feet, and you don't really know who anybody is.
对。
Yep.
你知道，新的人搬进来了，老一派的人失去了权力，诸如此类的事情，他们一次又一次地谈论。
You know, new people are moving in, the old guard have lost power, all of this kind of thing, and they they talk again and again.
你知道，我不知道。
You know, I don't know.
那些在路那头买了房子的人，他们说他们以前在东方，但我不太清楚，就是那种事。
Those people who bought their house down the road, they say they were in, you know, the East, but I don't you know, that sort of thing.
然后结果发现，有各种秘密、假身份、私生子之类的事情。
And then it turns out there's all kinds of secrets and sort of assumed identities and kind of love children and all this kind of stuff.
对。
Yeah.
有些人还对父母不好，等等。
Some behaving badly to parents and and so on.
对。
Yeah.
年轻人之间的代际紧张关系。
Young tension between the generations.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得我们这时候应该休息一下。
I think I think we should take a break at this point.
然后我想，等我们回来的时候，也许可以聊聊古代历史和基督教。
And I think that when we come back, we should look perhaps at ancient history and Christianity.
哦，汤姆。
Oh, Tom.
那行为简直太不像话了。
That's absolutely scandalous behavior.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Alright.
我们休息后再见。
We'll see you after the break.
我们
We
正在获取11月10日那架载有350名乘客的航班在地面上的声明。
are getting a statement from November 10 on that flight with 350 passengers on the ground.
大博弈，英国和俄罗斯之间的战略斗争。
The great game, strategic struggle between Britain and Russia.
我们高度确信，这是一位俄罗斯总理所为。
We assess a prime minister with high confidence it was Russian.
让俄罗斯承担责任是世界
Holding the Russians accountable is world
第三次世界大战。
war three.
击落了一架载有350人的英国客机。
Down a British passenger jet containing 350
乘客。
people.
克里姆林宫的那个人在玩火，亚历克斯。
Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex.
你得问问自己，你想玩还是不想玩？
You've got to ask yourself, you want to play or not?
你是首相。
You're the prime minister.
你什么都没做。
You've done nothing.
你准备好
Are you prepared for
迎接了吗？
coming?
我们需要了解政策背景。
We would need to understand the policy context.
今天所有相关背景都会整理成一个框架，然后下发给行动命令或者补充命令。
All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today and disseminated into an operation order or Frago.
一份补充命令，内容是刺杀俄罗斯总统。
A Frago that says to kill the president of Russia.
是的。
Yes.
来自Goal Hanger的新消息。
New from goal hanger.
谁能完成这个任务？
Who is going to be able to pull this off?
你是我的士兵，对吧？
You're my soldier, are you?
汤姆·麦克达夫中士。
Sergeant Tom McDuff.
达菲。
Duffy.
一段无与伦比的音频剧旅程。
An audio drama journey like no other.
像达菲这样的人，是我们最宝贵的武器。
Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons.
构思严谨，是一部技术性强的地缘政治动作惊悚剧。
Devised as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller.
我们有两个友好的国王。
We have two times friendly kings.
英国打出最强王牌，他是最棒的。
Where Britain plays its strongest arm He's the best.
对抗最强的对手。
Against its strongest foe.
别这样对我。
Don't do it to me.
《猎熊》。
Bear Hunt.
现在就可以在各大播客平台收听。
Available now wherever you get your podcasts.
大家好。
Hello.
欢迎回来。
Welcome back.
我们正在探讨阿加莎·克里斯蒂，把她当作一面映照二十世纪的镜子。
We are looking at Agatha Christie as a mirror held up to the twentieth century.
但我之前答应过，我们会探讨两个引人入胜的主题：古代历史和基督教。
But I promised that we would look at two intriguing themes, ancient history and Christianity.
对。
Yeah.
多米尼克，我可不是在夸张。
Dominic, I mean, I'm not exaggerating.
而且这两个主题都很重要。
Am And they they are both significant.
说到古代历史，当然是因为她嫁给了一位考古学家。
Well, ancient history because, of course, she married an archaeologist.
所以在阿奇那件事闹翻之后，她嫁给了考古学家马克斯·马洛温。
So after the Archie thing all blew up, she then married the archaeologist Max Malawan.
当时人们很不厚道，因为她比他大十四岁，我记得。
And people were very unkind because she was, I think, fourteen years his Yes.
差不多是马克龙那种情况。
A macronesque.
我是说，按马克龙的标准来看。
Well, I was gonna say by macron standards.
他们俩简直就像同一个月出生的。
I mean, they're they're practically born in the same month.
那时候人们常说，马克斯喜欢老古董，考古学家只对越老的东西感兴趣，之类的。
And and people used to say, oh, well, you know, Max is interested in old relics, and archaeologists are only interested in you, the older you are and stuff.
但实际上，他们的婚姻看起来非常美满，她会陪他参加那些上世纪中叶令人惊叹的开创性考古发掘，地点大概在……
But actually, they had a very seems to be a very contented marriage, and she would accompany him on these incredible groundbreaking mid century archaeological digs in kind of Well,
她遇见了他。
she she met him.
她在伊拉克和伦纳德·伍利一起工作，他……
She was out in Iraq with Leonard Woolley who
没错。
That's right.
发掘了乌尔。
Excavated earth.
我是说，那地位非常高。
I mean, was very, very high.
她一直对此很感兴趣，因为她离开学校时，她母亲生病了。
And she'd she'd always been interested in that because she when she left school, her mother was ill.
而且，你知道，就像卡那封勋爵去埃及一样，如果你身体不太好，有点不舒服，你就会去卢克索或开罗过冬。
And this, you know, as with Lord Carnarvon going to to Egypt, you go to Egypt if you are, you know, you're you're a bit seedy, a bit under the weather, go and spend the winter months in Luxor or Cairo.
所以她大约18岁时和母亲一起去了开罗，我觉得那对她产生了巨大的影响。
And so she goes with, with her mother to Cairo when she's about 18, and I think it has obviously a a kind of huge impact on her.
所以我确信，这也是她爱上马克斯·马洛温的原因之一，我在《波斯之火》里提到过他。
So I'm sure that that that is kind of an aspect of why she she falls for Max Malouan, who, I I cited in Persian Fire.
他写了一篇关于居鲁士大帝的非常好的文章。
He wrote a very good article on Cyrus Great.
这可是你宣传《波斯之火》这本书的绝佳机会啊。
This is a brilliant opportunity for you to advertise your book of Persian Fire or something.
对。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
而且她还写了一部关于阿肯那顿的剧本，那可是我们节目的老朋友了，那剧本写得挺糟糕的。
And also she she wrote she wrote a play about Akhenaten, friend of the show, which is terrible.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
太糟糕了。
It's terrible.
所以基本上，这就是一部标准的阿加莎·克里斯蒂谋杀小说，被搬到了第十八王朝。
So basically basically, it's it's it's a a kind of standard Agatha Christie murder novel transplanted to the eighteenth dynasty.
所以里面有霍伦海布，他是阿肯那顿手下的将军，被描述成一个粗鲁的家伙。
So you've got Horimheb, who is the the the general under Akhenaten, who is described as being a puck asab.
所以
So
他好吧。
he's Alright.
他就像那种你知道的，那个上校，对西姆拉和波洛很着迷的那种人。对。
He's like a guy you know, the the the colonel who's a boar about Simlar and Poirot Yeah.
还有那些。
And all that.
还有他的妻子穆特诺杰梅特，她扭动着身体，显得很威胁。
And, his wife, Mutt Nodjmet, is she she undulates her body menacingly.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
这是舞台说明之一。
Is one of the one of the stage descriptions.
我很乐意看到那个。
I'd happily see that.
而且她对泰伊王后非常傲慢，因为泰伊王后坚持穿着过时的服装款式。
And she's, she's very she's very snooty about, queen Tee who holds on to her old fashioned, fashions of dress.
所以这是改编作品吗？
So is this an adaptation?
因为克里斯蒂写过一部推理小说，《死亡终局》，我记得是，背景设在古埃及。
Because Christie wrote one of her whodunit, death comes as the end, I think it was, was set in ancient Egypt.
这是那部小说的改编吗？
Is this an adaptation of that?
不。
No.
那不一样。
It's different.
好的。
Alright.
它其实就是关于图坦卡蒙那些事的。
It's it's literally about Tutankhamun and all that.
所以她两次涉足古埃及题材。
So she dabbled twice in ancient Egypt.
对。
Yeah.
而且，当然，她有些书是以古埃及为背景的。
And but, of course, some of her books are set.
比如《美索不达米亚谋杀案》就是在一个考古发掘现场发生的，据说里面还有一幅伦纳德·伍利妻子的画像。
So murder in Mesopotamia is set on an archaeological dig, and there's supposedly a portrait in that of Leonard Woolley's wife Yeah.
她显然不太受其他考古学家的待见。
Who clearly was not highly regarded by the other archaeologists.
在《尼罗河上的惨案》里，有人在阿布辛贝勒的拉美西斯二世巨像那里试图谋杀。
On Death on the Nile, there's a murder attempt at the great statues of Ramses the second at Abu Simnel.
没错。
That's right.
其实，关于克里斯蒂，有趣的一点是她的书基本上发生在两种不同的地方。
And actually, I mean, one of the interesting things about Christian is that her books basically take place in two different kinds of places.
一种是英国乡村，比如圣玛丽米德或者奇平克莱格霍恩那种地方，
They take place in rural England, in rural in sort of St Mary Mead or Chipping Cleghorn,
还有一种就是那种虚构的岛屿。
and they sort of invented Or islands.
对。
Yeah.
比如康沃尔附近的某个岛。
Or island off Cornwall.
是的。
Yeah.
或者像达文波特那样的岛屿。
Or islands of Davenport sort of stuff.
但她的故事也发生在，怎么说呢，可以说是二十世纪中期日渐衰落的英国帝国边缘地带。
But, also, they take place in what you might call, I suppose, the it's the decaying mid century British imperial periphery.
所以这些地方不一定是英国殖民地，但可能算是某种非正式的殖民地，比如在……
So it's place it's it's they don't tend to be in British colonies, but they're places that are kind of maybe informal colonies in
英国。
British.
埃及或者美索不达米亚。
Egypt or Mesopotamia.
埃及。
Egypt.
对，没错。
Exactly.
或者人们从那里回来，我……
Or people traveling back, I.
比如《东方快车谋杀案》。
E, Murder on the Orient Express.
就是那种，你知道的，斯坦布尔列车之类的。
They're sort of, you know, the Stambol train kind of thing.
这显然增加了它们的吸引力，那种异国情调。
And that obviously adds to their appeal, the exoticism.
所以古代历史，我觉得，给了她一个她竞争对手都没有的优势，像多萝西·L·塞耶斯和玛乔丽·阿林厄姆，她们都深深扎根于那种精致上流社会。
So the ancient history, I think, I mean, that gives her another string to her bow that none of her competitors have, Dorothy l Sayers and, Marjorie Allingham, so on, who are so rooted in the sort of the cut glass.
我是说，她们有老派侦探，比如彼得勋爵那种古怪人物，我觉得他们现在看起来非常过时，因为他们牢牢扎根于两次世界大战之间的英国上流社会。
I mean, they've got old detectives, lord Peter, whimsy, and people like that who've dated, I think, very badly because they're so firmly rooted in the world of the sort of interwar, you know, sort of British high society in that world.
但是，汤姆，你想谈谈基督教。
But then, Tom, you want to talk about Christianity.
现在很多人会好奇你怎么把基督教扯进来，但我想我知道你会怎么做。
Now lots of people won't will be wondering how you're gonna get Christianity in, but I think I know how you're gonna do it.
这很重要，不是吗，在侦探小说的道德世界里。
It's it's important, isn't it, in within the, the moral world of of the detective novel.
对。
Yeah.
克里斯蒂在波洛和马普尔小姐的故事里都写到，有善与恶，有对与错，有绝对的道德标准。
Christie writes both with Poirot and with miss Marple that there is good and evil, that there is right or wrong, that there are absolute moral standards.
而且从某种意义上说，这个道德框架就像是哲学上的那个岛屿，所有人都被困在上面，或者像那个被暴风雪隔绝的庄园。
And that in a sense, that framework of of morality is it's the kind of philosophical equivalent to the the island on which everyone is stuck or the the manor house that's been cut off by the plot.
岛屿。
Island.
快乐岛。
The pleasure island.
没错。
Exactly.
所以，并不是说那种尼采式的超级英雄会出现在故事里，他们嘲笑传统的道德标准，认为杀人没什么不对。
So it it's not as though kind of Nietzschean superheroes are going to be part of the plot who who who deride conventional standards of morality and think there is nothing wrong with killing, say.
你知道，没有我说的那种，没有汉尼拔·莱克特。
You know, there is no I said there was no Hannibal Lecter.
正是因为这里没有汉尼拔·莱克特。
It's precisely the fact that there is no Hannibal Lecter.
没有连环杀手。
There is no serial killer.
我觉得从来都没有这样的人。
There is never anyone, I think.
我可能读的阿加莎·克里斯蒂的作品还不够多，所以不敢百分百确定。
I I I I probably haven't read enough Agatha Christie's to be absolutely firm about this.
但总的来说，凶手们是接受道德框架和道德标准的。
But by and large, the murderers accept the moral frameworks, the moral standards.
对。
Yeah.
而这些道德标准是基督教的，因为阿加莎·克里斯蒂其实是个相当虔诚的基督徒。
And these moral standards are Christian because Agatha Christie was actually quite a devout Christian.
嗯，她
Well, she
她是个虔诚的基督徒。
is a devout Christian.
对。
Yeah.
她是那种低调的基督徒。
She's a quiet she's a quiet Christian.
她不是那种高调宣扬的。
She's not kind of thumping.
但我认为这一点很重要，也很关键，能解释她那种侦探小说的风格。
But I think it is I think it is significant and important to explain the style of detective fiction that she's that
她写的那些。
she does.
所以汤姆，有一种说法是，侦探小说，我是说，侦探小说是在维多利亚中期出现的。
So there is an argument, Tom, that detective fiction I mean, detective fiction comes into being in the mid Victorian period.
而且你可以说，侦探小说的出现，显然表达了人们对城市流动社会的各种焦虑，在那个社会里，犯罪随时可能发生，你不知道是谁干的，因为你被现代世界搞得晕头转向。
And you could make an argument, I suppose, that detective fiction comes into being it obviously expresses all kinds of anxieties about an urban mobile society where crime can strike at any moment, and you don't know who's done it, you know, because you don't know because you're you you feel discombobulated by the modern world.
你可能会说，侦探是上帝审判的替代品，你知道，那种神圣的权威。
You I suppose you could argue the detective is a substitute for the judgment of God, that the, you know, the sort of divine authority.
我的意思是，波洛，马普尔小姐
I mean, Poirot, miss Marlowe
波洛经常是这样，不是吗？
Poirot is often like that, isn't he?
他们确实拥有别人没有的那种知识。
They they absolute they have a kind of knowledge that nobody else does.
他们几乎全知全能。
They kind of an omniscience almost.
我的意思是，在波洛的书里，通常很早就会有一个时刻，波洛会对黑斯廷斯说，我知道是谁干的。
I mean, there's often a moment in a Poirot book quite early on where Poirot will say to Hastings, I know who did it.
我只需要和四个人谈谈，再等三起犯罪发生，然后才能把大家召集到图书馆里。
I merely need to talk to four different people and wait for three other crimes before I can assemble people in the library.
但我知道，你只需要知道三件事：那滴蜡、镇上的桌子，以及他在三点三十分那场赛马中押了某人赢。
But I know all you need to know is three things, the drop of wax, the town table, and the fact that he placed a bet on so and so to win the $3.30 at Yeah.
Paintree。
Paintree.
你只需要知道这些。
And that's all you need to know.
而且，你知道，有一个像神一样的人物。
And, you you know, that there's a godlike figure.
有趣的是，克里斯蒂她相信死刑。
And interestingly, Christie so she believes in the death penalty.
马普尔小姐在《帕丁顿的450》里，那是1957年。
Miss Marple in 450 at Paddington, which is 1957.
所以五十年代有死刑暂停期。
So there's a moratorium for the death penalty in the nineteen fifties.
马普尔小姐谈到凶手时说：'我真的非常非常遗憾他们废除了死刑，因为如果要说谁该被绞死，那就是这个恶棍。'
And miss Marple says of the killer, I'm really very, very sorry they've abolished capital punishment because if anyone I think ought to hang it is the villain.
克里斯蒂自己在自传里说，杀人的人是邪恶的，即使他们可能值得同情。
Christie herself says in her autobiography, people who kill are evil even if they might deserve pity.
你不能放过他们，就像你不能放过那个从中世纪瘟疫肆虐的村庄里跌跌撞撞走出来、混进附近村庄无辜健康孩子中间的人一样。
You cannot spare them any more than you could spare the man who staggers out from a plague stricken village in the middle ages to mix with innocent and healthy children in a nearby village.
没戴口罩。
Not wearing his mask.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
其实我觉得关于克里斯蒂、她的基督教信仰、两次世界大战以及她写作的那个时代，最吸引人的一点是，她的书里经常有关于邪恶的对话。
And actually, the fascinating thing I think is about Christie and her and her Christianity and the world wars and the era of the world wars in which she's writing is that so often there are conversations in her books about evil.
比如《阳光下的罪恶》，光看标题，邪恶就被突出了。
So an evil under the sun, I mean, title, you know, evil is foregrounded.
但是，汤姆，开头那个牧师的情节，你肯定很喜欢，那真是个精彩的瞬间。
But, Tom, there's that brilliant moment that you must surely have enjoyed where there's the vicar at the beginning.
我知道我们有很多牧师听众。
I know we have a lot of vicars who listen to this podcast.
蒂姆·瓦斯比·伯尼牧师，马库斯·沃克牧师，等等。
The reverend Tim Vasby Bernie, the reverend Marcus Walker, and so on.
有个牧师对邪恶特别着迷，对吧？
There's the vicar who's kind of absolutely obsessed with evil, isn't there?
是的。
Yes.
但他对邪恶的痴迷，恰恰可能让他成为嫌疑人之一。
But he but but but his obsession with evil is one of the things that might make him a suspect.
对。
Yeah.
因为大家觉得他是个疯子。
Because people think he's a maniac.
他嘛，他确实是个疯子，不是吗？
He well, he's a he's a maniac, isn't he?
但你的力量，邪恶是真实存在的。
But your power, evil is real.
这是事实。
It is a fact.
我相信邪恶，就像我相信善良一样。
I believe in evil like I believe in good.
它是存在的。
It exists.
它很强大。
It's powerful.
它行走在人间。
It walks the earth.
他停了下来。
He stopped.
他的呼吸变得急促。
His breath was coming fast.
他用手帕擦了擦额头，突然露出歉意的表情。
He wiped his forehead with his handkerchief and looked suddenly apologetic.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
他说，我有点失控了。
I got carried away, he said.
汤姆，这就像，我听着你说话的时候，就是这个样子。
Tom, that's just like that's what I'm that's what I'm like when I'm listening to when I'm listening to you.
嗯，我不知道。
Well, I don't know.
我觉得这有点苛刻，因为他一直在说那些涂脂抹粉的荡妇什么的。
I think that's a little harsh because he is going on about kind of painted Jezebels and
对。
Yeah.
那倒是
That's
真的。
true.
他在指责那个被谋杀的人，说太阳底下的邪恶，说他是邪恶的。
He's accusing the murderee and evil under the sun of be of being evil.
当然，结果他并不是邪恶的。
And, of course, he turns out not to be evil.
这就是整个反转。
That's the whole that's the whole twist.
所以他也是那种障眼法的一部分。
So he's he's part of that kind of the the dust thrown in the eyes.
但波洛并不否认邪恶的存在。
But Poirot does not deny that there is evil.
不。
No.
他同意邪恶是存在的。
He agrees that there is evil.
而且
And
波洛和马普尔都一再地说，邪恶是真实存在的。
Poirot and Marple both say again and again, there is such a thing as evil.
但真正有趣的是，在这个“快乐岛”系列中，我们的一个构想是，要把一切都追溯到狄更斯。
But what's really interesting so in this sort of Pleasure Island series, one of the conceits of it was that we were gonna be tracing back, everything to Dickens.
而实际上，结果发现，狄更斯是阿加莎·克里斯蒂最喜欢的作家。
And, actually, as it turned out, Dickens was Agatha Christie's favorite writer.
当然，狄更斯也描绘了邪恶。
And Dickens, of course, portrays evil as well.
而且，狄更斯也是伟大的……
And, also, Dickens is one of the great
侦探小说的先驱之一。
progenitors of detectives.
《荒凉山庄》中的……
Inspector Bucket in Inspector
巴克特探长。
Bucket in Bleak House.
但在狄更斯那里，邪恶总是通过身体特征来表现的。
But in Dickens, evil is always expressed kind of physically.
所以你就是个侏儒。
So you you're a dwarf.
对。
Yeah.
你扭曲着身体。
You as you writhe.
你驼背或者什么的。
You've got a hunchback or whatever.
有点像莎士比亚作品里的那种。
Rather like in Shakespeare or something.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但在阿加莎·克里斯蒂那里，邪恶的关键在于，有些真正邪恶的人，在其他方面却是完全适应良好、理智、正常的角色。
But in Agatha Christie, the whole point about evil is that some of the really evil people are otherwise absolutely well adjusted, sensible, normal characters.
你知道，不像弗莱明笔下的那些角色，他们要么有三个下巴，要么毛发太重什么的。
You know, it's not like in Fleming where they've all got three yans or or they're too hairy or something.
对。
Yeah.
你知道，那些犯罪主谋。
You know, the the the criminal masterminds.
而且，实际上，我觉得这很吸引人，因为在二十世纪的文化里，尤其是在克里斯蒂写作的那个世纪中叶，到处都充斥着关于我们内心潜伏的邪恶的内容。
And, actually, that's the fascinating thing, I think, because the twentieth century in twentieth century culture generally, I think especially in mid century when Christie was writing, it's full of stuff about the evil that lurks within us.
你知道，就是那种《蝇王》之类的。
You know, all the kind of lord of the flies kind of kind of stuff.
或者甚至《指环王》里的咕噜。
Or indeed, Gollum in the lord of the rings.
所以克里斯蒂笔下的人物一次又一次地说，比如在《死亡约会》里就有这么一个人。
And so Christie, again and again, characters say so there's one in appoint no.
有一本书叫《死亡约会》，里面有个法国心理学家叫杰拉德医生，他说，潜意识里埋藏着一些奇怪的东西，对权力的渴望，对残忍的渴望，一种野蛮的撕裂和破坏的欲望。
There's a book called appointment with death, and there's a French psychologist called doctor Gerard, and he says, there are such strange things buried down in the unconscious, a lust for power, a lust for cruelty, a savage desire to tear and rend.
我们把它们关在门外，不让它们进入意识生活，但有时候它们太强大了。
We shut the door on them, and we deny them conscious life, but sometimes they are too strong.
那种……
And that kind of
对，是的。
Well, yes.
我是说，确实，很多人会被那个相当精彩的意外分心。
That I mean, admittedly, a lot of people would be distracted by that quite superb accident.
但是……
But
嗯，那正是你会从法国心理学家那里听到的那种话。
Well, that's the kind of stuff you would expect from a French psychologist.
但她相信这一点，而波洛……
But she believes it, and Poirot
也相信。
believes it.
她也是，而且马普尔小姐也相信这一点。
She well, and miss Marple believes it.
因为实际上，马普尔小姐是二十世纪虚构人物中最悲观、最阴暗的角色之一。
Because actually, miss Marple is one of the kind of the the the bleakest fictional creations of the twentieth century.
这个说法有点夸张吧。
Mean, That's a big claim.
她怀疑自己看到的每个地方都有邪恶。
She suspects that everywhere she looks, there is evil.
对。
Yeah.
而且她每次都能证明自己是对的。
And she always turns out to be right.
她看到的是那种——我知道这么说可能有点老套，但人们可能会说这是对这个词的一种严重误用。
And what she sees is the eve the it's almost I know this is an absolute love, but people will say this is a terrible misuse of the phrase.
但她看到了邪恶的平庸性。
But she sees the banality of evil.
所以她看着村庄里发生的事，说，我能看到即使在最普通的家庭里也潜伏着的仇恨、嫉妒、怨恨和贪婪。
So she looks at the goings on in a village, and she says, I can see the hatred, the jealousy, the resentment, the greed that festers in even the most ordinary household.
所以，实际上，当你读这些书的时候，尤其是——我是说，我十几岁的时候读过。
So, actually, when you read those, especially I mean, I read them when I was a teenager.
当时特别喜欢，因为我想知道是谁干的。
Absolutely adored them because I wanted to know who who did it.
但现在再读，想想人们读这些书的时候——马普尔小姐最好的那些书基本上都是四十年代写的。
But now reading them later and thinking about people reading these books because the most Marple books tend to the best ones are written, basically, nineteen forties.
想想人们读这些书的同时，比如《移动的手指》之类的。
Thinking about people reading them at the same time, the moving finger or something.
他们读这些书的时候，同时也在读报纸上关于二战期间及其后那些可怕暴行的新闻。
They're reading them at the same time that they're reading the newspapers about these dreadful horrors going on during the second world war and its aftermath.
我觉得，那里确实有一种阴郁。
It's it's really there is a bleakness there, I think.
是的。
Yes.
但我觉得其中也有一种同情心，这或许也源于基督教的影响。
But there is also a kind of compassion that I think also goes back to the Christianity perhaps.
所以，《黑麦满口袋》。
So I Pocket Full of Rye.
你读过那本吗？
Have you read that?
读过。
Yeah.
在八十年代BBC改编的版本里，凶手是彼得·戴维森演的。我是《神秘博士》的粉丝，所以觉得这非常
The killer was Peter Davison in the BBC adaptation in the nineteen eighties, which I was a Doctor Who fan, I found very
非常令人失望。
very disappointing.
非常震惊。
Very shocking.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，那是一部马普尔小姐的故事。
So so in that, that's a miss Marple.
情节似乎围绕着那首童谣，你知道的，二十四只黑鸟烤在派里之类的。
The so the the plot seems to revolve around the, you know, four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie and all that kind of thing.
还有国王在账房里数钱。
And among the the the king is in his counting house counting out his money.
王后在客厅里，怎么说来着，做面包和蜂蜜。
Queen is in the, what was it, parlor making bread and honey.
女仆在晾衣服。
The maid was hanging out the washing.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yes.
那个女仆被杀了。
The maid gets killed.
那个女仆好像叫格拉迪斯。
The maid's called Gladys, I think.
对吧？
Isn't she?
就是
It's just
好像叫格拉迪斯什么的。
something like called Gladys.
就像《他们为什么不问埃文斯？》里那样。
As in, why didn't they ask Evans?
在我看的那个改编版本里，她有个晾衣夹。
And and in the adaptation I saw, she has a kind of clothes peg.
是不是彼得·戴维森演的那一版？
Is Is is that the one with Peter Davidson?
对。
Yeah.
一个
A
夹在鼻子上的晾衣夹，她有点受辱，那真的很糟糕。
kind of clothes peg stuck on her nose, and she's kind of humiliated, and it it it's awful.
整个情节基本上围绕马普尔小姐的决心展开，她发现这个女仆其实遭受了非常非常严重的情感虐待。
And the whole plot revolves basically around miss Marple's determination that this maid, who it turns out has been very, very badly, emotionally abused.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
她是她是
She's she's
一个弃婴。
a foundling.
她一直在马普尔小姐家干活，后来去了那栋大宅子。
She she's been working for miss Marple, and she's gone off to the big house.
然后基本上，她完全被骗了，而且——
And, basically, she gets completely fooled and
嗯，她是被诱骗了，对吧？
Well, she's groomed, isn't she?
她是被诱骗了。
She's groomed.
她是被诱骗了。
She's groomed.
而这对马普尔小姐来说，才是真正的邪恶。
And that that, for miss Marple, is the true evil.
不只是她被谋杀了，而是她被诱骗、被虐待了。
Not just that she's been murdered, but that she's been she's been groomed and abused.
因为那和克里斯蒂是势利眼这种说法有点矛盾。
Because that kinda contradicts the the Christie as a snob.
不是。
No.
绝对不是势利眼。
Definitely not a snob.
我是说，你知道，这……嗯，你能看到狄更斯的影响，因为那种事情也会让狄更斯非常愤怒。
I mean, that's, you know, that's I well, you can see the the the debt to Dickens there, because that's exactly the kind of thing that would have infuriated Dickens as well.
对。
Yeah.
其实这挺好的。
That's nice, actually.
是的。
Yes.
我是说，克里斯蒂，有意思的是，人们对克里斯蒂的态度，我觉得在英国特别明显，就是喜欢贬低她，但在国外没有这种情况。
I I mean, Christie, it's interesting, isn't it, that people have this attitude to Christie in Britain uniquely, I think, of of stamping on Christie because they don't have it abroad.
我是说，我读过一些法国……
I mean, I was reading some of the French
评论家们。
critics.
那太好了。
That's great.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们已经聊完了作为基督徒的克里斯蒂。
So we've done Christie the Christian.
现在我们来聊聊作为后结构主义者的克里斯蒂。
Now let's do Christie the post structuralist.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，作为现代主义者的克里斯蒂。
Well, Christie the modernist.
所以，我的意思是，有些论点，我知道有些英国听众听到这里，要么已经关掉了，要么就是气得不行，简直不敢相信。
So, I mean, there are there are arguments by I mean, I know some British listeners will be, at this point, you know, either switched off or just be apoplectic with disbelief.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。