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这一切都是真的，或者应该是真的。
It's all true, or it ought to be.
温斯顿·丘吉尔曾这样评价亚瑟王的传说。
So said Winston Churchill of the legend of King Arthur.
是浪漫的历史故事，还是纯粹虚构的神话？
Romantic historical story or just an invented myth?
欢迎来到《余下的都是历史》，我是多米尼克·桑布鲁克，我的专属莫德雷德是汤姆·霍兰德。
Well, welcome to The Rest is History with me, Dominic Sambrooke, and my very own Mordred, Tom Holland.
汤姆。
Tom.
我应该告诉你，多米尼克，在剧本里写的是‘我专属的加拉哈德’。
I should tell you that in the script in the script, Dominic, it says my very own Galahad.
所以我知道。
So I know.
但它们处理得非常非常微妙。
But they're very very subtly done.
嗯。
Yeah.
我本希望你能注意到。
I was hoping you would notice.
那我们开始吧。
So let's kick off.
这是个很棒的话题。
This is a great subject.
亚瑟王是我最早对历史产生兴趣的主题。
King Arthur was my very first historical enthusiasm.
所以我读了《Lady Bird亚瑟王》系列书籍。
So I read the Lady Bird King Arthur books.
我读过安托瓦内特·弗雷泽关于圆桌骑士的书。
I read Antonia Fraser's book about the knights at the round table.
我认为在读任何关于真实国王的书之前，我就已经读过这些了。
And I think I read those before I read anything about real kings.
我必须说，如果很多人对历史产生兴趣，这大概是真的，不是吗？
I must that was probably true if lots of people get into history, isn't it?
你从亚瑟王和罗宾汉开始，然后才接触到圈地运动、解散修道院这些真正令人兴奋、迷人的主题。
You start with King Arthur and Robin Hood, and then you get into the, you know, enclosures and dissolution of the monasteries and all the really exciting, glamorous subjects.
是的。
Yes.
阅读关于圈地运动时，总有一种模糊的感觉挥之不去。
There's always the vague feeling attaching to reading about the enclosures.
那些带着忏悔的骑士可有趣多了。
The knights knights with penance are just a lot more fun.
我想，贯穿整个主题的显然是一个显而易见的问题，这个问题被《大西洋》杂志的英国记者托马斯·塔克非常精辟地概括为：亚瑟，他是谁？什么？为什么？如何？
And I suppose hanging over this entire theme is the obvious one, which summed up very effectively by Thomas Take, the, UK correspondent for The Atlantic, who asks, Arthur, who, what, why, how?
我想你可以把这个问题简单理解为：他真的存在过吗？
I guess you could express that as basically, did he exist?
是的。
Yeah.
那么，多米尼克，你是个怀疑论者还是信徒呢？
So Dominic, are you a skeptic or a believer?
嗯，就是这样。
Well, that's it.
在我看来，我想我喜欢相信亚瑟确实存在，因为我是个多愁善感的人。
To my mind, I guess if I like to believe that Arthur existed, of course, because I'm a romantic.
但归根结底，我直觉认为可能存在多个亚瑟。
But ultimately, I suppose my instinct is that there were multiple Arthurs.
对吧？
Right?
很可能当时有多个军阀和将军，有些是罗马的遗存，有些是凯尔特人，有些甚至可能是日耳曼人，他们在罗马不列颠末期——也就是我们所说的黑暗时代——逐渐融入了亚瑟的传说。
That probably there were multiple warlords and generals, some of them Roman leftovers, some of them Celtic, some of them maybe even Germanic, who sort of fed into the Arthur legend at the end of Roman Britain in that sort of period that we think of as the dark ages.
这个传说并非完全凭空捏造，就像所有历史神话一样，其中必定包含一些真实的成分。
That it wasn't completely invented that there must have been grains of truth as there always are in historical myths.
不过，汤姆，这可是你的专业领域。
But anyway, Tom, this is your field.
你这是在自己的地盘上。
You're on home turf.
这个问题应该由你来回答。
You should be answering this question.
我不认为他真实存在过。
I don't think he existed.
你知道‘欧赫emerism’这个词吗？它的意思是，在遥远的过去，一些凡人、国王或权势人物，随着时间推移，被神化成了神祇。
You know this word euhemerism, the idea that in the distant past, have mortals, kings, powerful figures who go on over the course of time, become elevated and end up as gods.
嗯。
Yeah.
但我认为，亚瑟王是一个反向现象的有趣例子。
But I think that Arthur is a kind of interesting example of something going the opposite way.
我认为他本质上是一个神话人物、民间传说中的形象，后来被附着在一个具体的历史叙事上。
That I think he's essentially a kind of mythical figure, a figure of folklore who gets attached to a specific historical narrative.
而这种现象之所以能成立，是因为正如你所说，亚瑟王的故事背景设定在罗马不列颠崩溃后的一两个世纪，而这正是我们最难构建历史叙事的两个世纪。
And the reason that that can work is that, as you said, the setting for Arthur are the century, maybe two centuries after the collapse of Roman Britain, which is the two century period that really we struggle to fit a narrative onto it.
我们手头的书面资料太少，而考古学、遗传学等证据又如此矛盾且复杂，因此从某种意义上说，如果你想将一个神话人物融入历史，并假设、想象、构建出一个真实存在过的人物，那么这个时期正是最适合的。
We have so few written sources and the evidence from archaeology, from genetics, everything is so contradictory and so complex that in a sense, if you wanted to slot a mythical figure and pretend, imagine, cast him, construct him as someone who had actually existed, that's the period that you would do it.
但我认为，实际上有两个问题。
But I think that, I guess, there are two problems, really.
一个是，提及亚瑟的文献都极其晚出。
One is that the sources that mention Arthur are incredibly late.
没错。
Right.
所以它们都是事件发生很久之后才出现的吗？
So they're well after the event?
是的。
Yes.
有一段描述提到，一些来自爱丁堡地区的说威尔士语的不列颠人发动了一次袭击，目标是被认为与卡瑟里克有关的地方。
Almost so there's there's there's a description of, a raid that was launched by, some Welsh speaking Britons from the region of Edinburgh against what's thought to be the Roman thought of Catherick.
这段记载大约发生在六月，而描述此事的人，名叫阿内林，在诗的开头声称自己在叙述这件事，而他据称生活在六月左右。
And this is set about, well, about June, and the guy who is describing it claims at the beginning of the poem, guy called Aneurin says, I am narrating it, and he's supposed to have lived around June.
在这首诗中，有一句话说这位军阀立下了赫赫战功，但他说的并不是亚瑟。
And in that in that poem, there is a phrase that this this warlord pulls off great feats, but he was not Arthur is the phrase.
哦，所以如果我们
Oh, So if we
如果我们能确定安内林所处的时代，那就能证明这件事发生得非常早。
can if we can identify that June, then that is evidence for it being very early.
而亚瑟是人们熟知的人物，人们会说：他是亚瑟吗？
And Arthur being somebody that people will know, and that people will say, is he an Arthur, isn't he?
这可是相当重要的，不是吗？
That's pretty big, isn't it?
我的意思是，这难道不暗示了什么吗？
I mean, doesn't that suggest?
但问题是。
Except that.
但问题是。
Except that.
这首诗最早写于九世纪，而我们现存最早的抄本是十三世纪的。
This is a poem that was first written down in the ninth century, and the earliest manuscript we have of it is is the thirteenth century.
因此，这其中存在很大的口耳相传的可能。
So there's a lot of potential for Chinese whispers there.
即使它确实写于六月，他也绝不是亚瑟。
And even if it was, you know, written in June, He was no Arthur.
我的意思是，亚瑟仍可能是一个神话人物。
I mean, it could Arthur could still be a mythical figure.
是的。
Yes.
就像你会说，他根本不是赫拉克勒斯之类的。
Like you'd say, he was no Heracles or yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
然后
And then
那像吉尔达斯这样的人呢？
what about these people like Gildas?
吉尔达斯是写过亚瑟的人，对吧？
So Gildas is somebody who writes about Arthur, isn't he?
给我讲讲吉尔达斯。
Tell me about Gildas.
对。
Right.
所以吉尔达斯，同样很难精确确定，但他可能生活在公元500年左右。
So Gildas is, prob again, difficult to pin it down exactly, but he's probably writing about 500.
他确实提供了一个混乱的叙述，描述了当时发生的事情，尽管其中充满了各种《旧约》意象。
And he does give a kind of garbled narrative of what's going on, even though it's completely shot through with all kinds of Old Testament imagery.
所以他写的并不是一种直白的历史。
So he's not writing a kind of straight history.
他确实为我们描绘了一幅傲慢暴君的画像，这位暴君后来被认定为邀请撒克逊雇佣兵入境的沃蒂根。
And he does give us, he gives us a portrait of a haughty tyrant who subsequently gets identified with a guy called Vortigern inviting Saxon mercenaries in.
接着，不列颠开始崩溃。
Then you have Britain imploding.
你看到的是一个战争状态。
You have a state of warfare.
这通常就是你与亚瑟王联系在一起的时期。
And this conventionally is the period that you associate with Arthur.
但提到的并不是亚瑟。
But it's not Arthur who is mentioned.
而是一个名叫安布罗修斯·奥雷利阿努斯的人，他被描述为最后的罗马人。
It's a guy called Ambrosius Aurelianus who is described as the last of the Romans.
而亚瑟并没有出现。
And Arthur isn't there.
所以，对。
So Right.
这是一个巨大的空白。
It's a yawning gap.
那么，为什么吉尔达斯没有提到亚瑟？
So why does Gildas not mention Arthur?
我想可能有
I guess there are
各种原因，但等一下。
various But hold on.
人们不是认为安布罗修斯·奥雷利安就是亚瑟吗？
Don't don't people think that Ambrosius Aurelianus is Arthur?
这是我读到的很多内容。
That's a lot of the stuff that I've read.
人们说，这显然是亚瑟。
People say, well, this is obviously Arthur.
那只是他的真名。
Just that was his real name.
那就是巴尔塔兹吗？
Is that just Baltaz?
这有点像是
It's kind of
这相当令人绝望，因为他不叫亚瑟。
quite desperate because he's not called Arthur.
我的意思是，他叫
I mean, he's called
是的。
Yeah.
奥勒利阿努斯。
Aurelianus.
那么为什么吉尔达斯没有提到亚瑟？
So why is Gildas not mentioning Arthur?
可能是因为他没听说过他。
It could be because he hasn't heard of him.
所以亚瑟活动在盖尔达斯没听说过的国家其他地区。
So Arthur is operating in some other area of the country that Gildas hasn't heard.
或者盖尔达斯对亚瑟有意见。
Or it could be that Gildas has a problem with Arthur.
在威尔士和其他凯尔特地区早期的圣徒传记中，亚瑟常常被描绘成一个对教会不利的负面人物。
So in a lot of the early saints' lives that you get in in Wales and other Celtic areas, Arthur is often cast as a kind of problematic figure who who preys on the church.
所以这可能是原因。
So perhaps that's the reason.
所以他被封杀了。
So he's been canceled.
盖尔达斯把他封杀了。
Gildas has canceled him.
是的。
Yeah.
或者他根本就不存在。
Or perhaps he just doesn't exist.
你知道，他是一个虚构的人物，我认为这是最有可能的解释。
You know, he's he's he's an imaginary figure, and I think that that's the likeliest explanation.
亚瑟在看似历史记录中的出现，是在一组与威尔士作家内尼乌斯名字相关的威尔士文献、编年史等文本中。
Where Arthur does appear in what seems to be a historical record is in a Welsh series of texts, chronicles and so on, that is attached to the name of a Welsh writer called Nennius.
但同样，这一切都非常混乱。
But again, it's all very confusing.
正是这些文献给出了亚瑟据说赢得的十二场战役的著名列表，其中最后一场是巴登战役，我们可以相当确信这场战役确实发生过，因为吉尔达斯提到了它。
And this is the one that gives the famous list of 12 battles that Arthur is supposed to have won, culminating in the Battle of Baden, which we can be fairly confident is a battle that was fought because Gildas mentions it.
但他并没有将这场战役与亚瑟联系起来。
But he he doesn't associate it with Arthur.
他甚至没有明确说击败巴登战役的是安布罗修斯·奥雷利安努斯。
He doesn't even specifically say that it's Ambrosius Aurelianus who won the Battle of Baden.
他也没有说巴登战役的对手是谁。
He doesn't say who the Battle of Baden was against.
他并没有为它提供一个确切的日期。
He doesn't really provide a solid date for it.
所以这一切简直一团糟。
So the whole thing is a kind of it's it's a mess.
我认为既然如此，你就得问：为什么以及如何会出现亚瑟的传说？
And I think that that being so, you've got to ask, well, why and how would the legend of Arthur emerge?
我认为很明显，这里发生的是一个威尔士语传统，是的。
And I think that it's pretty clear that what's going on is that you have a Welsh speaking tradition that is Yes.
对它所认为的撒克逊人侵占其土地的行为极为敌视。
Very hostile to what it sees as a takeover of its lands by Saxons.
同样，在《盎格鲁-撒克逊编年史》中，你也看到了一个非常相似的叙述：撒克逊人和盎格鲁人向西席卷，征服了不列颠人的家园，将他们驱赶到威尔士——这是从另一方视角看到的。
And likewise, in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, you have a very similar, account of Saxons and Angles sweeping westwards, conquering the homelands of the Britons, pushing them into Wales, seen from the other side.
传统上，这一直被理解为一段历史叙事：罗马人撤离，不列颠人邀请撒克逊人前来。
And traditionally, this has been understood to be a historical narrative, that the Romans withdraw, that the Britons invite in the Saxons.
随后撒克逊人征服了后来成为英格兰的地区。
The Saxons then conquer what becomes England.
亚瑟据说在巴登战役中获胜，将撒克逊人遏制了数十年。
Arthur supposedly wins the battle of Baden, keeps the Saxons at bay for a few decades.
随后，撒克逊人又卷土重来。
The Saxons then come back in.
这种叙述被一再重复，至今仍被广泛接受。
And that's a kind of narrative that has been repeated and repeated, and it's still kind of widely held to.
但我认为这是一个虚构的故事。
I But think it's a fantastical one.
这与考古证据和基因证据所显示的情况并不相符。
That's not what actually the archaeological evidence shows, and it's not what the genetic evidence shows.
让我
Let me
打断一下。
interrupt you.
所以现代学术历史学家最近，尤其是那些较为进步的学者，认为这种叙述是错误的，因为它将移民描绘成充满争议、伴随着刀光剑影的过程。
So modern sort of academic historians very recently, especially if they're sort of quite woke, shall we say, they think that this is the wrong narrative because it presents immigration as kind of contested and it's all done with fire and sword.
他们认为，不，不是这样的。
And they sort of argue, oh, no.
这个过程要缓慢得多，存在一种融合；说撒克逊人入侵并将亚瑟和不列颠人全部驱赶到威尔士的说法完全是胡说八道，实际上这是一个多元文化的过程等等。
It was much more gradual, and there was an assimilation that the the idea that the Saxons came in and they drove Arthur and the Britons all into Wales is all boulder dash, and it was this sort of multicultural process and all the rest of it.
你认同这些观点吗？
Do you buy all that?
这就是你的看法吗？
Is that your take on it all?
我认为这并不是关于‘觉醒’焦虑或移民问题。
I don't think it's about woke anxiety is about immigration.
我认为这是因为地面上的所有证据——考古证据显示，几乎没有大规模入侵的迹象，遗传学证据也是如此。
I I think it's about the fact that, all the evidence on the ground, the archaeological evidence shows very and the genetic evidence shows very little sign of a kind of mass invasion.
基本上，盎格鲁人和撒克逊人，就像威尔士人一样，都是生活在罗马不列颠时期人们的后裔。
Basically, the Angles and the Saxons, like the Welsh, they're all descended from the people who lived in Roman Britain.
似乎发生的是，出于我们无法完全确定的原因，前不列颠行省的东部地区开始在文化上认同北海地区的日耳曼族群。
What seems to have happened is that, for reasons that we can't be absolutely certain about, that the eastern half of the former province of Britannia starts to identify culturally with the Germanic reaches of the North Sea.
这是一种对罗马性、对罗马理想的自觉反抗。
And it's a conscious reaction against Romanitas, against the ideals of Rome.
几乎作为一种对此的回应，不列颠的西部地区——一直以来罗马化程度较低——开始极其剧烈地认同罗马历史、罗马先例等等。
And almost as if in reaction to that, the Western half of Britain, which had always been less Romanized, very, very radically starts to identify with Roman history, Roman precedents, and so on.
到九世纪和十世纪时，这些不同的故事、不同的传统、不同的后设投射已经固化，以至于威尔士人和盎格鲁-撒克逊人都相信确实发生过一次真正的迁徙。
And essentially, by the time you get to the ninth and tenth century, what has happened is that these different stories, these different traditions, these different back projections have come to be fossilized so that both the Welsh and the Anglo Saxons believed that there was a kind of genuine migration.
但就目前学术研究的前沿而言，完全没有证据支持这种迁徙。
But there is, in terms of essentially the cutting edge of academic research at moment, there's no evidence at all for this migration.
因此，将亚瑟融入这一叙事就变得更加困难了。
And so therefore, it becomes more difficult to fit Arthur into that narrative.
好吧。
Well, okay.
让我们重新回到亚瑟的话题。
Let's get back stuck into Arthur.
关于存在一个名叫亚瑟的人——这位极具浪漫色彩的人物——这个观念究竟是何时真正出现的？
The idea of there being somebody called Arthur, this incredibly romantic figure, where does that when does that really kick in?
受过教育的人们是在什么时候开始交换亚瑟的故事并加以润色的？
At what point are educated people swapping the story of Arthur and embellishing it?
那么，这是在诺曼征服之前就广泛传播，还是之后？
So is this pre Norman conquest that this becomes widespread, or is it after that?
嗯，你在内尼乌斯那里就已看到这个故事了，不管内尼乌斯是谁，当你看到这一点时，正是盎格鲁-撒克逊人开始逐渐巩固英格兰王国的时候。
Well, you you're getting it with Nennius, whoever Nennius was, if he You you so you're getting it in, as the Anglo Saxons are starting to kind of solidify the kingdom of England.
因此，亚瑟被奉为威尔士人的民间英雄。
So you are getting Arthur enshrined as a kind of folk hero for the Welsh.
而且
And
但不是撒克逊人。
But not the Saxons.
对吧？
Right?
他们？不。
They they No.
不。
No.
那么对于阿尔弗雷德来说，他是不知道亚瑟，还是认为亚瑟是个坏人呢？
And and so for Alfred doesn't I mean, he either doesn't know about Arthur or he thinks Arthur is a bad guy.
我这么说对吗？
Am I right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以贝达没有提到亚瑟，而贝达提供的几乎是关于我们所谓的黑暗时代唯一的历史叙述。
So Arthur is not mentioned by Beat, who essentially provides the only narrative that we have for, what we could call the dark ages.
阿尔弗雷德赞助了《盎格鲁-撒克逊编年史》，亚瑟才被提及。
It gets picked up by Alfred, who is sponsoring the Anglo Saxon Chronicle.
《盎格鲁-撒克逊编年史》也没有提到亚瑟。
Anglo Saxon Chronicle doesn't mention Arthur either.
因此，亚瑟本质上成了威尔士人的民间英雄，提醒人们曾经战胜过所谓的撒克逊人。
So essentially, Arthur becomes a folk hero for the Welsh, a reminder of victories won over the Saxons, as they're called.
而且有一种隐含的预言意味。
And there's a kind of implicit sense of prophecy.
所以我认为，在内尼乌斯的作品中，第一次提到了梅林。
So you also get in Nennius, I think, the first mention of Merlin.
通过梅林的预言，他说终有一日，不列颠人将重新夺回低地和卢顿伯勒。
And with Merlin's prophecies, he is saying that the time will come where the Britons will essentially get back the Lowlands, Loughborough.
他们将重新夺回英格兰。
They will get back England.
因此，这种观念认为亚瑟会再次归来，威尔士人将逆转他们战败的屈辱。
So it's this idea that Arthur will come again, that the Welsh will reverse the humiliation of their defeat.
这本质上正是推动这一切的力量。
That's essentially what's powering it.
这一切都是幻想，因为从未发生过。
That's all a fantasy because it never happened.
你的意思是，他本质上是在虚构一种从未真正发生的屈辱？
Is that what you're saying that that he's basically inventing this humiliation that never actually
发生了吗？
took place?
盎格鲁-撒克逊人显然最终认同了更日耳曼的传统，以至于他们说起了日耳曼语，采用了日耳曼名字，并将自己的起源追溯到日耳曼神祇。
The Anglo Saxons, obviously, they end up you know, they they identify with the the the more Germanic traditions to the degree that they end up speaking a Germanic language, that they take on Germanic names, that they trace their origins back to Germanic gods.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，这种文化在低地地区占据主导地位，而罗马化的基督教威尔士人则被逼入了所谓的山地堡垒之中。
And so culturally, this then becomes dominant over the Lowlands, and the Romanized Christian Welsh are pushed into, as they say, into in in in into the mountain fastnesses.
这就是重大的文化分界。
And that's the great cultural divide.
这显然在诺曼征服之后依然延续，并进一步混淆了局势。
And it's one of obviously, that survives the Norman conquest, And that then muddies the waters further.
因为亚瑟本质上是威尔士人的精神象征。
Because essentially, Arthur is an inspiration to the Welsh.
而他也成为诺曼征服者及其后裔的重要人物。
And then also, he becomes quite a potent figure for the Norman conquerors and their heirs.
因为这又像是在贬低英格兰人。
Because, again, it's kind of putting the English down.
是的。
Yeah.
真正将亚瑟王普及为历史人物的是十二世纪早期的一位作家，那就是蒙茅斯的杰弗里。
And really, the guy who popularizes Arthur as a historical figure is writing in the early twelfth century, and that's Geoffrey of Monmouth.
这是劳拉·劳森的问题。
So this is Laura Lawson's question.
劳拉·劳森，我想我们现在该进入提问环节了。
Laura law Lawson, we should get into some questions now, I reckon.
是的。
Yes.
因为我和你讨论亚瑟王可以聊上几天，我猜人们可能也乐意听，但我们自己私下里确实能聊很久。
Because you and I can talk about King Arthur for I mean, maybe people were happy to hear that, but, we could probably talk with her on for for days between ourselves.
但劳拉·劳森说，基本上，它是如何，有多少是
But Laura Lawson says, basically, how is it how much is
是杰弗里·蒙茅斯创造的吗？
it Geoffrey Mormuth's creation?
而且你觉得确实是。
And and you think it is.
对吧？
Right?
我认为杰弗里·蒙茅斯的影响绝对非常巨大。
I think it's Geoffrey Mormuth is absolutely hugely influential.
他正在撰写一部不列颠国王的历史，正是杰弗里·蒙茅斯构建了从特洛伊的布鲁图斯逃离特洛伊陷落、来到不列颠、杀死所有巨人、建立王国的整个叙事。
He is constructing he he's writing a history of the kings of Britain, and it's Geoffrey Monmouth who gives the kind of the entire narrative from Brutus, the Trojan, escaping the sack of Troy, coming to Britain, killing all the killing all the giants, establishing his kingdom.
这让你对那种
And that gives you a sense
那种所谓的真实性与准确性有了概念。
of the kind of the quality Accuracy of of Yeah.
准确性。
The accuracy.
而且他为我们提供了大量我们现在熟知的熟悉故事。
And and it has to be and he gives us a lot of the familiar story that we now know.
所以没错。
So Right.
他将亚瑟与沃蒂根、亨吉斯特和霍萨的到来、梅林，以及亚瑟成为不列颠全境国王的黄金时代融为一体。
He is the guy who weaves in the story of of Arthur with Vortigern, with the arrival of Hengist and Horser, with Merlin, with the the this idea of a golden age, where Arthur becomes the king of the whole of Britain.
他入侵了罗马高卢。
He invades Roman Gaul.
他还成为了大陆上的皇帝。
He becomes the kind of emperor on the continent as well.
因此，他是一个无所不胜的超级英雄。
So he's an all conquering kind of superhero.
然后是莫德雷德与亚瑟之间的战争，最终以亚瑟之死告终。
And then there is the war between Mordred and Arthur that ends with Arthur's death, perhaps.
是的。
Yeah.
亚瑟死后，不列颠人的一切都陷入了混乱。
And that then after Arthur's death, then the Britons everything goes wrong for them.
但我认为有趣的是，格夫雷·蒙茅斯为什么要这样处理这个故事？
But I think that that what is interesting, why is Geoffrey of Monmouth what's he doing with this?
好吧。
Okay.
因此，他的历史著作的最后一句话，是以阿特尔斯坦的统治结束的。
So the last sentence of his history, he ends it with the reign of Athelstan.
阿特尔斯坦是那位将各个盎格鲁-撒克逊王国统一起来，建立起英格兰王国的盎格鲁-撒克逊国王。
And Athelstan is the Anglo Saxon king who who joins all the various Anglo Saxon kingdoms together to forge the kingdom of England.
是的。
Yeah.
但他还宣称对整个不列颠拥有至高无上的统治权。
But he also claims the supremacy over the whole of Britain.
他说自己是整个不列颠的国王，包括威尔士诸王，以及所有即将成为苏格兰地区的国王。
He says he's the king of all of Britain, including the Welsh princes, including all the the various kings of of what will become Scotland.
而且他还吸纳了罗马的传统。
And is a king who is appropriating the Roman traditions as well.
因此他在罗马城市举行盛大的朝会，并召集不列颠各地的国王。
So he holds kind of great durbars in Roman cities, and he summons kings from across Britain.
汤姆，他使用‘皇帝’这个词吗？
Does he use the word emperor, Tom?
是的。
Yes.
他确实使用。
He does.
是的。
Yes.
所以他是一位皇帝。
So he's a he's an an emperator.
他是一位国王。
He's a rex.
他具备了所有这些特质。
He's all these kind of qualities.
我认为杰弗里·蒙茅斯以阿特尔斯坦结尾是有深意的，因为从某种意义上说，他是在将阿特尔斯坦的功绩投射到亚瑟这个人物身上。
And I think it's telling that that Geoffrey Monmouth finishes with Athelstan because, in a sense, what he's doing is back projecting Athelstan's achievements onto the figure of Arthur.
对。
Right.
所以我认为，亚瑟就像是一个凯尔特化的阿特尔斯坦。
So I think that Arthur is a kind of a Britonized Athelstan, if you like.
他是一位统治整个不列颠的皇帝，是罗马传统的继承者，成就卓著，击败了敌人。
He's he's an emperor who rules over the whole of Britain, who is the heir to Roman traditions, who achieves great things and defeats his enemies.
我认为，本质上，这就是正在发生的事情。
And I think, essentially, that that's what's going on.
而且我认为，值得注意的是，有一些威尔士作家清楚地意识到这完全是胡说八道。
And I think as well, it's telling that there are Welsh writers who are aware that this is absolute nonsense.
有位名叫杰拉德·威尔士的作家，名字非常出色，杰拉德·威尔士，杰拉德·威尔士。
There's Gerald of Wales, splendidly named Gerald of Wales Gerald of Wales.
他描述了一个被恶魔附身的人。
Who describes a man who's possessed by devils.
他说，当福音书放在这个被附身者胸口时，恶魔就会逃走。
And he says that when the gospels are placed on the chest of this possessed man, the devils flee away.
但如果你把杰弗里·蒙茅斯的历史著作放在他胸口，所有的恶魔又会蜂拥而回。
But if you put a copy of Geoffrey of Monmouth's history on his chest, all the devils come flocking back.
这就是历史学家。
That's historians.
这不过是历史学家们互相贬低罢了，对吧？
That's just historians being bitchy about each other, isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
因此，人们对杰弗里撰写历史这件事产生了一种反弹。
So there's there's there's a kind of kickback against the fact that Geoffrey is writing history.
但，显然没错。
But, obviously Yeah.
你知道，人们都有切身利益。
You know, people have a stake.
威尔士人对此有利益，因此他们通常非常支持。
The Welsh have a stake in it, so they're generally quite keen on it.
当然，英格兰的国王们也对此有利益。
And, of course, the, the kings of England have a stake in it.
因为如果亚瑟是整个不列颠的国王，那么对于一个想要征服威尔士、征服苏格兰的诺曼国王来说，这显然很有用。
Because if Arthur was the king of the whole of Britain, then obviously that's quite useful if you're a Norman king wanting to conquer the Welsh, wanting to conquer the Scots.
而且，根据蒙茅斯的杰弗里所说，亚瑟曾入侵并征服了罗马帝国的大部分地区，因此如果你想要发动对欧洲大陆的入侵，这也很有用。
And because Arthur had invaded and conquered much of the Roman Empire, according to Geoffrey Monmouth, it's also quite useful if you want to launch a continental invasion.
所以，这就是中世纪时期我们所了解的亚瑟所处的大致背景。
So that's the essentially, the kind of the context for for Arthur that we get by the Middle Ages.
他对于英格兰的国王们是有用的。
He he's he's of use to the kings of England.
所以，正是在这一点上，我想，他被宫廷传统所采纳了，对吧？
And so that's the point at which, I guess, he gets then he gets picked up by the courtly kind of tradition, doesn't he?
克雷蒂安、塔图伊尔和马洛里，还有其他所有人。
Cretienne, Tatouille, and Mallory, and and all the rest of it.
但你提到有一件事我们还没涉及。
But you did there's one thing we haven't gone into.
所以，近年来这个问题越来越多地被提及。
So this has started to come up a lot in recent years.
我们收到了来自‘Killy Me Softly’的一个问题。
We have a question from Killy Me Softly.
我知道他是。
I know he is.
他是一位名叫米克·麦克阿沃伊的电视制片人，他说有大量的证据。
He's a TV producer called Mick McAvoy, and he says, there's a lot of evidence.
他说亚瑟王来自苏格兰。
He says that King Arthur was from Scotland.
我们有一个本·亚瑟，还有亚瑟王座。
We have a Ben Arthur, an Arthur's seat.
梅林与位于邓布兰岩的古老王室家族有关联。
Merlin has been linked to the ancient royal family based at Dumbarton Rock.
那么亚瑟王是苏格兰人吗？
So was King Arthur Scottish?
一个苏格兰听众写投诉是多么不寻常啊？
How unlike a Scottish listener to write a complaint?
有些东西本是苏格兰的，然后被英格兰人偷走了。
Something is Scottish and and then the English have stolen it.
哦，确实，威尔士人也偷走了它。
Oh, indeed, the Welsh have stolen it.
所以，你认为是否有一种可能的解释是，在那个时期苏格兰和威尔士是相似的，两者之间并没有明确的界限。
So so do you think or is that one one answer might be that Scottish and Welsh are kind of the same in this period, that there's no clear distinction between the two.
汤姆，这样想会不会完全不合适？
Would that be completely untoward, Tom?
嗯，那些威尔士语使用者给我们提供了早期的浪漫故事，其中这个史诗里根本没有亚瑟这个人。
Well, the the Welsh speakers who give us this early romance where you this this epic where you get, he wasn't no Arthur.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他们是威尔士语使用者。
I mean, they're Welsh speakers.
所以，亚瑟的传统——那个与盎格鲁人和撒克逊人作战的伟大军阀的传统——无论你是在邓巴顿巨岩这样的地方说威尔士语，还是在我们现在称为威尔士的地方，都是同样真实的。
So those traditions, the traditions of Arthur, the traditions of a a great warlord who fought the Angles and the Saxons, that's, as true if you're a Welsh speaker in, you know, Dumbarton, the Great Rock Of Dumbarton, as it is if you're in what we'd now call Wales.
因此，在这个意义上，我认为是的，亚瑟是所有说威尔士语变体的人们心中的一个神话人物。
So in that sense, I think, yes, Arthur is is a a kind of mythic figure for all those who are speaking kind of variants of Welsh.
但当然，后来成为苏格兰王国的地方，苏格兰人对亚瑟并不感兴趣。
But what of course, what becomes the kingdom of Scotland, you know, it's it's not the the Scots are not interested in Arthur.
所以这很复杂。
So it's complex.
所以康沃尔人显然声称亚瑟是他们的，而布列塔尼人有时也对亚瑟做出过夸张的主张。
So the Cornish obviously claim I mean, did the Bretons, have sometimes made exaggerated claims to Arthur.
那康沃尔呢？
But what about, the Cornish?
所以当你去康沃尔度假时，总是有一种亚瑟王的传说萦绕在你周围，对吧？
So that's the you go to Cornwall on holiday, and you sort of there's always this Arthurian sort of legend hanging over you the whole time, isn't it?
那里有立石、废墟，还有著名的廷塔杰尔。
It's a place of standing stones and ruins and, obviously, Tintagel.
我们收到了很多关于廷塔杰尔的问题。
We had lots of questions about Tintagel.
是的。
Yes.
我们收到了艾伦·安德鲁·怀尔德的问题，他问亚瑟与廷塔杰尔的联系有多少是历史，有多少是传说。
We got one from Alan Andrew Wilde who asks how much of Arthur's connection to Tintagel is history versus legend.
我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题，因为它触及了历史、传说、民俗以及晚期古典和中世纪对亚瑟的不同态度之间这个奇特的交汇点。
And I think this is a fascinating question because it goes to the heart of this kind of weird nexus, this web of history and myth and folklore and the late antique and the medieval and the modern attitudes to Arthur.
说了这些，我们休息一下。
And so having said that, let's have a break.
延迟满足。
Delay gratification.
我们听完广告后再回来讨论。
We'll come back to it after we listen to some adverts.
欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》，我们现在即将听到汤姆·荷兰关于廷塔杰尔的解答。
Welcome back to The Rest is History, and we are poised for a, an answer from Tom Holland all about Tintagel.
我等不及了。
I can't wait.
汤姆，告诉我们吧。
Tom, tell us.
廷塔杰尔是真实的吗？
Is Tintagel real?
是的。
Yeah.
那么亚瑟与廷塔杰尔有什么关联呢？
So what's Arthur's connection to Tintagel?
根据传说，亚瑟就是在那儿被 conceived 的。
According to the legend, it's where Arthur is conceived.
亚瑟的父亲乌瑟·潘德拉贡爱上了伊格赖恩，她就是那位。
And Uther Pendragon, Arthur's father, has fallen in love with Ygraine, who is Yes.
康沃尔公爵的妻子。
The the wife of the duke of Cornwall.
乌瑟是个冲动的人，立刻率军围攻廷塔杰尔。
And Uther, being an impetuous man, immediately goes and besieges Tintagel.
梅林出现，趁康沃尔公爵丈夫外出时，为他提供了接近伊格赖恩的机会。
Merlin comes, offers him access to, Igrain while the duke of Cornwall husband is away.
公爵死了。
He dies.
乌瑟得以接近伊格赖恩，亚瑟因此被 conceived。
Uther gets to Igrain, and Arthur is conceived.
他不是乔装打扮的吗？
Is he not in disguise?
乌瑟不是伪装了吗？
Isn't Uther not disguised?
他伪装成了丈夫。
He's disguised as husband.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yeah.
所以这就是这个故事。
So that's so that's the story.
行为真差劲啊，汤姆。
Poor behavior, Tom.
得
Gotta
非常糟糕的行为。
Very poor behavior.
是的。
Yes.
非常糟糕的行为。
Very poor behavior.
此外，廷塔杰尔还与更多不良行为有关，即特里斯坦与伊索尔德的传说。
And also, Tintagel is associated with more poor behavior, the legend of Tristan and Isolde.
是的。
Yes.
特里斯坦去迎接爱尔兰公主，并把她带回了家。
Tristan, who goes to get the Irish princess, brings her back.
康沃尔正在上演一点女性的天花板现象。
A little women's ceiling going on in Cornwall.
所以，所以，这就是那种联系。
So so so that's the that's the kind of that's the connection.
这是怎么发生的？
How did it come about?
在五世纪和六世纪，廷塔杰尔似乎是一个重要的中心。
It is the case that in the fifth and sixth centuries, Tintagel seems to have been a major center.
因此，有各种证据表明它与罗马世界存在贸易往来。
So there are all kinds of, evidence for trade with the Roman world.
对。
Right.
也许正是这种民间记忆的遗留，解释了为什么亚瑟王与它联系在一起。
And that is so maybe there's a kind of legacy of folk memories of that which explains why Arthur is linked to it.
但事实上，廷塔杰尔之所以成为浪漫中世纪城堡的象征性形象，是因为它在中世纪时期确实如此——它被赐予了亨利三世的兄弟理查德，他成为了康沃尔公爵理查德。
But really, the reason why Tintagel is the kind of emblematic image of a kind of romantic medieval castle is because that's what it was in the Middle Ages, because it gets given to a brother of Henry III, Richard, who becomes Richard, Duke of Cornwall.
他基本上搬进了圣。
And he basically moves in on St.
塔杰尔，并建造了我们现在看到的城堡。
Tadjol and builds the castle that we see there now.
即使在建造时，它也采用了一种有意识的复古风格。
And even when he was building it, it was in a kind of consciously retro style.
对。
Right.
没错。
Yeah.
本质上，理查德·康沃尔建造廷塔杰尔，是为了让它看起来像他想象中亚瑟王城堡的样子。
Essentially, Richard Richard Cornwall is building Tintagel to look like he imagines an Arthurian castle should look.
从某种意义上说，亚瑟王传说总是如此，人们不断构建他们心目中它应有的模样。
And in a sense, that's what you get over and over with the Arthurian myths, is people constantly constructing images of what it should look like.
而事实上，这种建构至今仍在继续，因为最近的考古发掘在那里发现了一块罗马石料，上面有一段铭文，可能提到了一个叫阿尔托格诺的人。
And really, it's still going on to this day because recent excavations there, they found a lump of Roman stone, and there was an inscription on it that perhaps mentioned someone called Artogno.
哦，汤姆，你还是不承认亚瑟王真实存在吗？
Oh, Tom, that's a that's you're still denying Arthur was real?
难以置信。
Unbelievable.
展开剩余字幕（还有 378 条）
对。
Right.
所以这里有很多问题。
So there are all kinds of problems.
这不是亚瑟。
It's not Arthur.
你知道，他是
It's, you know, he's
叫阿尔托格诺。
called Artogno.
但英格兰遗产委员会发布了一份新闻稿，说：哇，
But the English Heritage put out a press release saying, woah,
是
it is
亚瑟。
Arthur.
从某种意义上说，他们在那里所做的，正是中世纪人们所做的事情，不仅在廷坦托，尤其是在格拉斯顿伯里，那里的修士们制造了与亚瑟王的联系，因为这能吸引游客。
And in a sense, what they're doing there is exactly what people were doing in the Middle Ages, not just at Tintanto, but particularly Glastonbury, where the monks at Glastonbury, they're manufacturing the links with Arthur because it will bring in tourists.
而英国遗产委员会说‘这证明了亚瑟王确实存在于此’时，本质上他们也在做同样的事，因为众所周知，亚瑟王这个名号能带来销量。
And essentially, English heritage, when they're saying, yes, this shows that Arthur existed here, basically, they're doing the same because, of course, the truth is that Arthur sells.
意思是
Mean
对，对。
Yeah, Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
当然。
Of course.
好吧，让我们具体谈谈亚瑟，因为我们收到了大量关于亚瑟这个神话人物的问题。
Well, let's talk about Arthur specifically because we had tons of questions about Arthur as a sort of mythic figure.
那我们就开始吧，上校。
So let's kick off colonel.
他说，我认为这是对的，亚瑟王是不是类似于许多其他民族的神话人物，他们正等待着在国家危难时挺身而出保卫土地？
He says, I think rightly, isn't king Arthur similar to a lot of other nations mythical figures who lay waiting to arise and defend the land when it's in peril?
比如爱尔兰的芬·麦克库尔，或者德国的西格弗里德。
So Finn McCall in Ireland or Siegfried in Germany.
他很喜欢这个播客，他说得非常对。
Love the podcast, he says, quite rightly.
谢谢。
Thank you.
但这确实是事实，对吧，汤姆？
But that's true, isn't it, Tom?
亚瑟其实更像一个原型，而不是一个具体的人。
He's Arthur is an archetype, really, rather than an individual.
是的。
Yes.
他成为了那个将再次归来拯救我们的象征。
Well, he's he becomes the emblem of, someone who will come again and and save us.
对，没错。
And Yeah.
显然，在过去几年里，我看到很多人在期待他出现。
Obviously, over the past few years, I've seen quite a lot of people wondering when he's gonna turn up.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我的意思是，即使在英格兰，我们也有德雷克。
But, I mean, even in even in, in England, we've got Drake as well.
我们不是还有德雷克的鼓吗？
Haven't we got Drake's drum.
尼莫有个问题，这简直是送给你的礼物，汤姆。
Well, Nemo has a question that is which is just a gift to you, Tom.
所以尼莫问：亚瑟王的传说与另一位复活的英雄耶稣基督之间有什么相似之处？
So Nemo says, what are the parallels to in the legend of king Arthur and another resurrected hero, Jesus Christ?
你认为这些相似之处是刻意为之的吗？
And do you think these similarities are deliberate?
所以你认为亚瑟王的故事是基于基督的故事构建的吗？
So do you think the the Arthurian story was kinda modeled on the story of of of Christ?
这其中有没有什么道理？
Is there some truth in that?
没有。
No.
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
哦。
Oh.
我不觉得我觉得
I I don't think I think
嗯，我不这么认为。
well, I I no.
我认为，某种程度上，亚瑟王重临的故事与20世纪80年代中期盎格鲁-威尔士政治的纠葛有关。
I I think it's about, well, in a way, the the the story about Arthur coming again is tied up with the snarl of Anglo Welsh politics in the mid-80s.
因为是威尔士人谈论亚瑟王会再次归来，或许会把如今属于英格兰、曾经是不列颠的土地归还给他们。
Because it's the Welsh who talk about how Arthur will come again, perhaps, and give them back what's now England, was Britain.
因此，英格兰的国王们并不希望这样。
And so the kings of England, they don't want that.
尤其是爱德华一世，他最终征服了威尔士，对亚瑟王重归的想法毫无兴趣。
And Edward I, in particular, who will end up conquering Wales, is massively not interested in the idea of Arthur coming back again.
但同样地，爱德华非常关注亚瑟作为统治整个不列颠之君王的模式。
But equally, Edward is very interested in the model of Arthur as someone who rules the whole of Britain.
正是在爱德华统治时期，格拉斯顿伯里开始聚焦于发现亚瑟王墓的事件。
It's in Edward's reign that you get the focus at Glastonbury on the discovery of Arthur's tomb.
修道士们奇迹般地发现了亚瑟王及其王后桂妮薇儿的坟墓。
The monks kind of miraculously discover it, and the grave of Guinevere, his queen.
是的。
Yeah.
盛大的仪式和庆典之后，亚瑟的坟墓被迁移到并供奉在
Great kind of pomp and celebration, and and Arthur's grave gets moved and enshrined in
家庭的核心。
the heart of the family.
这多方便啊，对吧？他们在英格兰找到了它，而不是在威尔士。
Con it's convenient, right, that it's in England, that they found it in England and not in Yes.
或者康沃尔，没错。
Wales or Cornwall or yeah.
这太方便了，因为爱德华本质上想塑造一个征服整个不列颠的亚瑟，同时消除那个将会归来的人。
It's incredibly convenient because, essentially, what Edward is trying to do is to is to have the the Arthur who conquers the whole of Britain while getting rid of the Arthur who will come again.
没错。
Yeah.
修道士们对此有巨大利益，因为格拉斯顿伯里几乎没有多少圣物。
And the monks have a massive stake in this because basically, Glastonbury doesn't have many relics.
它没有太多吸引人们前来参观的东西。
It doesn't have a huge amount of stuff that people want to see.
因此，通过发现亚瑟的坟墓，他们实际上创造了一个摇钱树。
So by discovering Arthur's tomb, they are inventing a cash cow as well.
因此，对于爱德华和格拉斯顿伯里的修士们来说，每个人都赢了。
So as far as Edward and the monks at Glastonbury are concerned, everyone's a winner.
但这一传统一直延续下来，并在马洛里的作品中得到了最令人难忘的表达：他说，是的，亚瑟最终被埋葬在格拉斯顿伯里，但人们都说他终将归来。
But that tradition kind of lingers on, and it's expressed most memorably in Malory, where he says, yes, Arthur ended up being buried at Glastonbury, but men do say that he will come again.
他引用了那句著名的话：Rex Quandam, Rex Qua Futurus，
And he quotes his famous phrase, Rex Quandam, Rex Qua Futurus,
昔日之王，未来之王。
the once and future king.
但有趣的是，这一理念被都铎王朝的首位君主所采纳，他们显然具有威尔士血统。
But it's interesting because that idea was taken up by the first Tudors, who obviously had Welsh lineage.
因此，当亨利·都铎在米尔福德港登陆并进军博斯沃思时，人们将他视为新的亚瑟，尤其是在他穿越威尔士的过程中，这有助于他招募军队。
So when Henry Tudor has landed at Milford Haven and he's marching to Bosworth, there's talk of him as the new Arthur as he's going across Wales because it'll allow him to recruit troops.
而亨利八世也非常喜爱这些关于亚瑟的传说。
And then Henry VIII loved all this stuff about Arthur.
正是亨利八世出资制作了你在温彻斯特看到的那张巨大的圆桌，当时他是为了迎接神圣罗马帝国皇帝查理五世的到访。
It's Henry VIII who paid for this big round table that you see in Winchester, which he had done when Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, was visiting.
他想展示它，也想把自己塑造成新的亚瑟王。
He wanted to show it off and to show himself off as the new Arthur.
他的第一任妻子阿拉贡的凯瑟琳在格拉纳达的阿尔罕布拉宫长大，读过亚瑟王的故事。
Catherine of Aragon, his first wife, had grown up reading stories of Arthur in the Alhambra in Granada.
到那时，亚瑟王已经成为一种国际品牌，只要你崇尚宫廷与骑士精神，就会认同这种形象。
So by that time, Arthur was this international brand that you sort of bought into if you were a sort of courtly, chivalrous kind of person.
我认为，温彻斯特那张桌子上描绘的亚瑟王形象，是刻意为了唤起人们对亨利八世的联想。
And I think I think the, the image of Arthur that's painted on that table in Winchester is consciously designed to, evoke the image of Henry VIII as well.
我的意思是，那张桌子的起源，我认为可以追溯到爱德华一世时期。
Mean, the the origins of that table, I think, again, goes back to Edward I's reign.
爱德华一世基本上是把它当作一个典范来建造的。
And it's Edward is essentially building it as a model.
到了爱德华三世时期，它已经被视为真正的圆桌了。
By the time of Edward III's reign, it's come to be seen as the literal round table.
是的。
Yeah.
圆桌。
Round table.
所以这一切都是对的。
So it's all yes.
当然，亨利八世的哥哥名叫亚瑟。
And and, of course, Henry VIII's elder brother was called Arthur.
有趣的是， periodically 有被称为亚瑟的威尔士公主，她们都去世了，这真是
And one of the interesting things is that periodically, you get princess of Wales being called Arthur, they all die, which is
只有真正的亚瑟，汤姆。
Only the real Arthur, Tom.
只有真正的亚瑟，是的。
Only the real Arthur Yes.
可以，嗯。
Can Yeah.
总之，我们还有很多问题。
Anyway, let's, we've got tons of questions.
我们再来一个关于剑的问题，马修·德雷克。
Let's have another one, about the sword, Matthew Drake.
他说：我看了《石中剑》，也许当时年纪太小了，但我现在在封锁期间遛狗时听这个，我想知道关于这把剑的那些神秘传说是否真实。
He says, I watched Excalibur and Boy, perhaps at way too young an age, But I will be walking my lockdown puppy listening to this, and I want to know if any of the mystery behind the sword is true.
如果它真的存在，它现在在哪里？
And if it exists, where does it rest?
那么，Excalibur（石中剑）是从哪里来的呢？人们常常以为Excalibur和石中剑是同一把剑，但其实它们并不是。
So where does the Excalibur come so Excalibur people often think Excalibur and the sword and the stone are the same thing, which, of course, they're not.
它们是两把不同的剑。
They're two different swords.
汤姆，这两把剑大致是在故事的哪个阶段出现的？
At what roughly at what point, Tom, do those two swords enter the story?
它们应该是中世纪晚期的产物吧？
They must be sort of, you know, high Middle Ages inventions, are they?
是的。
Yes.
亚瑟王拥有多种宝剑，而最著名的传说是他由湖中仙女赐予了这把剑。
So Arthur has kind of various swords, and the the famous legend is that he is given it by the lady of the lake.
当他去世时，最著名的记载来自马洛里的作品，后来被丁尼生精彩地重述。
And then when he dies, and the famous account of that is in Malory again, and it gets retold brilliantly by Tennyson.
贝狄威尔将剑掷回湖中，一只身着白色长袍的手从水中伸出，接过宝剑后又沉入水底。
Sir Bedivere takes the sword and hurls it back, the hand dressed in white sebite comes from the water and takes the sword and plunges back in.
这正是《圣杯》中那个著名‘摩德皮卡丘’笑话的灵感来源：奇怪的女人躺在池塘里分发宝剑，竟被当作政府体制的合理基础。
And that's what inspires the famous Mod Pikachu joke in the Holy Grail about strange women lying in ponds distributing swords being considered a reasonable basis for a system of government.
但实际上，这个笑话揭示了宝剑在政治上的强大象征意义。
But actually, the joke points at the way in which swords are politically potent.
所以，没错。
So Yeah.
尽管有传说称亚瑟王的剑——Excalibur——已经消失，且当他再次归来时，剑将重新回到他身边，但还有其他传统认为，这些宝剑是可供有需要者取用的圣物。
Although you have the story that Arthur's sword, Excalibur, has vanished, and presumably when he comes again, he will have it at his side, Actually, there are other traditions that, these swords are are kind of relics that can be taken and used by people who need them.
其中最著名的例子就是狮心王理查，他根本对亚瑟王不感兴趣，因为他直接拿走了那把剑。
And the the famous example of that is Richard the Lionheart, who is spectacularly not interested in King Arthur because he takes his sword.
当他遇到西西里国王时，西西里国王送了他各种礼物，而铁心理查则把亚瑟王的剑送给了他。
And when he meets up with the with the the king of Sicily, and the king of Sicily gives him kind of various gifts, and Rich the Ironheart gives him king Arthur's sword.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
他把剑送人了。
He gives it away.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
但他疯了。
But he is Crazy.
本质上，他这么做是因为这是一种极其夸张的兄弟情谊。
Basically, he's doing it because it's kind of massive one armpitship.
没人
Nobody
能与亚瑟王的剑相媲美
can compete
与亚瑟王的剑相比。
with king Arthur's sword.
我的意思是，这真的让西西里国王
I mean, it really puts the king of Sicily
认清了位置。
in his place.
我喜欢提到他旅行时带着一个巨大的柜子，里面装满了亚瑟王的剑，就像某种修道院的圣物一样，
I I like to mention him traveling with this huge cupboard full of King Arthur's swords, you know, like sort of monastic relics or something,
四处送给各个国王。
giving out to kings left, right, and center.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Yeah.
所以，这又像是亚瑟王的遗体一样。
So so it's again, I mean, it's kind of a bit like the body of Arthur.
你知道吗？
You know?
亚瑟王的遗体是在格拉斯顿伯里，还是在阿瓦隆岛上等待归来？
Is the body of Arthur at Glastonbury, or is he in the Isle Of Avalon waiting to come again?
同样，亚瑟王的剑，你知道的，是留在湖中，由湖中女士保管，等待他归来时再次交付？
And likewise, is Arthur's sword, you know, in the lake with the lady of lake waiting to be handed out again when he comes back?
还是说它是一件里兹·德·拉·伦哈特可以随意赠予的物品，就像
Or is it something that Riz de la Lunhardt can give away as a kind of
我们在说话时，西西里科莱奥内的黑手党首领的家一样。
mafia boss' house in Sicily as in Corleone as we as we speak.
但显然，它有着巨大的后续影响，不是吗？
But, obviously, it's had a huge afterlife, hasn't it?
我的意思是，我能想到的两个例子是《指环王》中那把折断的剑——安督利尔，阿拉贡的剑，它标识了他作为国王的身份。
I mean, the two examples I can think of are the sword the sword that was broken in the Lord of the Rings, Anduril, Aragorn's sword, which identifies him as the king.
而大多数人熟悉的，是《星球大战》中卢克·天行者的光剑。
And the one that most people are familiar with, which is Luke Skywalker's lightsaber, which is given in Star Wars.
这种力量究竟是什么？
And it's What is this power?
它来自达斯·维达的传承。
It's inheritance from Darth Vader.
你知道，只有他才能使用它。
It you know, only he can wield it.
实际上，《星球大战》第一部电影，也就是我们熟知的原版，本质上是一个亚瑟王式的故事。
And, actually, Star Wars, the first Star Wars film, yeah, the original as we would know it, basically is an Arthurian story.
一个被收养的男孩，挥舞着宝剑，重新发现了自己的传承。
The boy who's been adopted, who wields the sword and rediscovers his inheritance.
我的意思是，某种程度上，这其实就像哈利·波特和他的魔杖。
I mean, in a way, that's actually Harry Potter on his wand.
对我来说，亚瑟王故事最有趣的地方就在于此，
It's the sort of that's the interesting thing about the Arthurian story to me,
它之所以具有
the fact that it's had
这种巨大的文化影响力。
this immense cultural footprint.
这里有一个克里斯·科普提出的好问题：为什么这个故事能如此持久地吸引人们？
Well, there's a good question here from Chris Cope who who asked why is there such an enduring interest in this story?
而且，你写过很多关于……
And, you know, you've written a lot about Yeah.
流行故事的力量，尤其是英国流行故事的力量。
The power of popular stories and particularly British popular stories.
你认为这种吸引力的根源是什么？
What what why what do you think the source of
这种力量的来源是什么？
the power is?
嗯，弗洛伊德曾提出过一个观点，我认为他称之为‘家庭罗曼史’，如果我说错了，请纠正我。
Well, Freud had this Freud claimed that there was this thing called I think he called it the family romance, that people will will correct me if I'm wrong.
他说，当孩子长到大约九岁、十岁、十一岁时，尤其是男孩，他们会幻想自己是被收养的，或者他们的亲生父母其实是别人，这是他们试图摆脱父母的一种方式。
He said children, when they reach an age they they reach an age of about nine, 10, 11, and boys particularly, when they they fantasize as as part of their sort of breaking away from their parents, they fantasize that they're adopted or that their real parents are somebody else.
而且，他们常常会做白日梦，幻想自己是富有而有权势的人的孩子，并拥有某种隐秘的遗产。
And that if they often fantasize, they have a daydream, that they are the children of rich and powerful people, and they have this hidden inheritance.
也许这正是你成长过程中，开始意识到失望或孤独等情绪的时刻，于是你为自己构建了这样一个梦幻世界。
Maybe that's about the point in your sort of growing up that you become, conscious of disappointments or loneliness or whatever, and you begin to create this sort of dream world for yourself.
你想象自己在生活中受到了辜负，而你真正的使命其实存在于别处。
And you imagine that you've been disappointed by life, and your true role lies somewhere else.
我认为这正是亚瑟王故事的关键之一，对吧？
And I think that's one of the key things to the Arthur story, isn't it?
人们总是记得那个被忽视、受欺凌的男孩的故事——比如他必须当凯的侍从，处处被他欺负。
It's that the bit that people always remember is the story of the boy who is overlooked and downtrodden by you know, pushed around by Kaye, who he has to be a squire for.
但这是因为T。
But that's that's because of T.
H。
H.
白色的，对吧？
White, isn't it?
我的意思是，那就是石中剑。
I mean, that's the sword and the stone.
而且
And
是的。
Yeah.
但我想，这就是孩子们常常代入的部分。
But that's that's, I think, what kids often get in.
然后，当然，他经历了所有的冒险和其他一切。
And then and then, of course, he has all the adventures and all the rest of it.
但我觉得，大人喜欢、而孩子可能不喜欢的转折点，是兰斯洛特和桂妮薇儿的故事。
But I think the point at which kids the the the thing that adults like and kids probably don't like is Lancelot and Guinevere.
我儿子很轻蔑地把那称为爱情。
My son sort of say describes that very dismissively as the love.
所以他喜欢亚瑟王的所有故事，但却无法忍受爱情部分。
And so he likes all King Arthur, but he can't stand the love.
我认为这正是前拉斐尔派着迷的地方，那种注定失败的浪漫以及类似的东西，还有那些多愁善感的少女之类的。
And I think that's the bit that obviously fascinated the pre Raphaelites, You know, this sort of doomed romance and all that sort of side of things, and they're sort of drippy maidens and stuff.
多愁善感的少女。
Drippy maidens.
但但为什么，但我不明白你为什么这么在意。
But but why but don't know why you a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他们其实都看到了同一件事。
Well, I mean, they they all saw quite a one thing, really.
到那个时候，所有东西都变成了一回事。
It's all it's all kind of one thing by that point.
你觉得为什么它能流传这么久，汤姆？
Why do you think it's lasted so long, Tom?
我的意思是，为什么它能如此牢牢抓住人们的文化想象？
I mean, why does it have this hold on the the cultural imagination?
嗯，我认为亚瑟王的宫廷理想，正如你们所知。
Well, I I think the ideal of Camelot as you all know.
我的意思是，你们
I mean, you
知道，杰基·肯尼迪。
know, Jackie Kennedy Kennedy.
嗯。
Yeah.
她曾描述过，你知道，
Described, you know,
把她丈夫的朝廷称为亚瑟王的宫廷。
described her husband's court as Camelot.
黄金时代的理念——骑士勇敢、充满魅力、色彩斑斓、激动人心，再结合亚瑟故事中那悲剧性的命运，以及一种令人着迷的、它或许会再次回归的暗示，我认为这是一个极其有力、强大的叙事。
The idea of a golden age where nights are bold, the glamour of it, the colour of it, the excitement of it, And then when that's combined with the tragic arc of Arthur's story and this kind of tantalizing sense that it might come back again, I think it's incredibly powerful, powerful narrative.
实际上，我认为兰斯洛特和桂妮薇儿的故事是其中关键的一部分。
And actually, I do think that the story of Lancelot and Guinevere is a crucial part of it.
在中世纪，这确实如此，因为从某种意义上说，兰斯洛特是个悲剧性人物，他渴望在每件事上都做到极致。
It certainly was in the Middle Ages because in a sense, Lancelot is I mean, he's a kind of tragic figure because he wants to be the very best that he can at everything.
他想成为最优秀的骑士，最忠诚的骑士，对他的君主最忠心不二。
So he wants to be the best knight, the truest knight, the truest knight to his liege lord.
他也想成为最真挚的情人。
And he wants to be the truest lover.
因此，他对亚瑟王的妻子桂妮薇儿完全忠贞不渝。
So he is completely true to Guinevere, Arthur's wife.
而这种悲剧就在于，他无法同时做到这两者。
And that's the kind of the the tragedy, is that he can't be both.
因此，他未能赢得圣杯，而他与桂妮薇儿的爱情最终摧毁了圆桌骑士团，引发了导致亚瑟王死亡或前往阿瓦隆岛的内战。
And so he fails to win the grail, and then his his romance with Guinevere ends up sundering the round table, and it leads to the civil war that results in Arthur's death or his departure to the Isle Of Avalon or whatever.
因此，那种圆桌骑士团因某种高尚而英雄的行为而毁灭的观念，我。
And so the sense that the round table is destroyed by something that is noble and heroic, I.
E。
E.
兰斯洛特渴望成为最优秀的人，我认为这非常有力。
Lancelot's desire to be the best, I think is is powerful.
实际上，我抄录了这段文字，因为它是我最喜爱的赞美段落之一，我认为我们还没有足够多如此精彩的赞美篇章。
And I actually, I've I've copied it this out because it's one of my absolute favorite passages of praise, and I don't think that, we've had enough amazing passages of praise on
汤姆还没做过足够的朗诵。
this Tom hasn't done done enough, recitals.
这是来自马洛里《亚瑟之死》的，马洛里在十五世纪玫瑰战争的背景下，对亚瑟王传奇做了权威性的总结。
It's it's from Malorie's Mort Darth and Malorie writes the kind of, you know, the definitive summing up of the Arthurian romances in the fifteenth century against the backdrop of the Wars of the Roses.
这是兰斯洛特的兄弟赫克托爵士，在兰斯洛特去世后为他献上的极其有力的挽歌，一种悼词。
And this is Sir Hector, Lancelot's brother, who, when Lancelot dies delivers this incredibly powerful threnody to him, this kind of obituary.
'啊，兰斯洛特，'他说，'你曾是所有基督教骑士之首，现在我敢说，'赫克托爵士道，'你，兰斯洛特爵士，就躺在这里，你从未被任何尘世骑士击败，你是最有风度的持盾骑士，是你对爱人最忠诚的朋友，曾骑马驰骋，你是最忠贞的罪人之爱，曾爱过女人，你是最仁慈的挥剑之人，是最英俊的骑士，曾出现在骑士群中，你是最温顺、最温和的人，曾在女士们用餐的厅堂中，你也是对敌人最严厉的骑士，曾将长矛稳稳架在枪架上。',
'Ar Lancelot,' he said, 'thou were head of all Christian knights and now I dare say,' said Sir Hector, 'Thou, Sir Lancelot, there thou liest, that thou were never matched of earthly knight's hand, and thou were the courteous knight that ever bare shield, and thou were the truest friend of thy lover that ever bestrad horse, and thou were the truest lover of a sinful man that ever loved woman, and thou were the kindest man that ever struck with sword and thou were the goodliest person that ever came among press of knights and thou was the meekest man, the gentlest, that ever ate in hall among ladies and thou were the sternest knight to thy mortal foe that ever put spear in the rest.
这真是太棒了，不是吗？
That's great stuff, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
It's great stuff.
太精彩了。
Fantastic.
我认为这是一种英雄主义的典范，我们至今仍然能够钦佩。
And I think that that's a model of heroism that, you know, we still are capable of admiring.
而且是注定失败的英雄主义，否则就会令人作呕。
And doomed heroism because otherwise, would be nauseating.
我的意思是，这种注定失败的命运，就是你接管播客、开始长篇朗诵的惩罚，因为我得念出比尔·琼斯的问题。
I mean, the doomedness is so your punishment for getting taking over the podcast to start doing long recitals is that I get to read out Bill Jones' question.
比尔·琼斯说：把荷兰送到亚利马太的约瑟、圣杯、亚瑟王、格拉斯顿伯里、荆棘、兔子洞。
And Bill Jones says, send Holland down the Joseph of Arimathea, Holy Grail, King Arthur, Glastonbury, Thorn, Rabbit Hole.
拜托了，汤姆。
Come on, Tom.
丹尼，你先说，但你必须回来。
Danny, go ahead, but you must come back.
圣杯属于我们之前讨论过的浪漫传统的一部分。
Well, the Holy Grail is part of the kind of romance tradition that we talked about.
克雷蒂安·德·特罗亚写过它，然后它在中世纪期间被广泛传播。
Cretien de Troyes writes about it, and then it gets taken up over over the course of the Middle Ages.
人们普遍认为，圣杯是基督在最后的晚餐中使用的杯子，据传是由亚利马太的约瑟夫带到英国的，而在传说中，他被塑造成耶稣的叔叔。
It's assumed to be, the cup that, Christ drank from at the Last Supper, and it's supposed to have been brought to Britain by Joseph of Arimathea, who, in legend, comes to be cast as Jesus' uncle.
因此，这个故事的根源是，当耶稣还是个孩子时，他曾与亚利马太的约瑟夫一同前来，而约瑟夫据称是一名商人。
And so that's the root of the story that when Jesus was a young boy, he came with Joseph of Arimathea, who was supposedly a trader.
所以，这就是耶路撒冷那句‘古时的脚踪’所指的事情。
So that's the the thing in Jerusalem, did those feet in ancient times.
它后来与格拉斯顿伯里联系在一起。
And it comes to be associated with Glastonbury.
而且，格拉斯顿伯里的修士们非常成功地吸纳了这些亚瑟王传说以及那些神秘的暗示。
And, again, the monks at Glastonbury proved very, very successful at kind of appropriating these Arthurian legends and these the kind of the the hint of the weird.
而这些传说的魅力一直延续到现代，你可以从各种方式中看到它的影响。
And the the the allure of these legends lasts into the modern age, and you can see it in kind of various ways.
比如，你可以在J.
So you see it, for instance, in, J.
S.
S.
艾略特的《荒原》中看到它。
Eliot's The Wasteland.
渔夫王。
The Fisher King.
据说渔夫王遭受了致命一击，我认为这非常奇妙，随着他的致命一击，整片土地变成了荒原，而获得圣杯则能使土地得以治愈。
The Fisher King who supposedly, has been struck a dollarous blow, which I think is such a fantastic and with his dollarous blow, all the land has become a wasteland, and the attaining of the grail enables the the land to be to be healed.
艾略特借鉴了一位名叫杰西·韦斯顿的学者所著的《从仪式到浪漫》一书，该书将其解读为一种被基督教化的异教隐喻。
And Elliot picks up on, a book by a scholar called Jesse Weston, who has written a book from ritual to romance, which casts this as a kind of pagan metaphor that's being Christianized.
然后艾略特将这一点融入了《荒原》之中。
And Elliot then kind of puts that, feeds that into the wasteland.
但当然，它也出现在电影《圣剑》中，约翰·波尔曼的这部影片可能是我认为最严肃、最出色的亚瑟王传奇电影呈现。
But, of course, it's also there in the film Excalibur, John Borman's film, which is probably, I think, the best cinematic portrayal, serious portrayal of the Arthurian legends.
当然，你还有蒙提·派森，不过它就没那么严肃了。
You've also got Monty Python, of course, which is slightly less serious.
但我认为它也体现在格拉斯顿伯里音乐节中。
But I think it's also there in the Glastonbury Festival.
我认为这是塑造格拉斯顿伯里音乐节独特魅力的关键部分。
I think it's a crucial part of what makes the Glastonbury Festival what it is.
这个音乐节举办地可能就是阿瓦隆岛，可能曾是耶稣到访过的地方，也可能是亚瑟王沉睡并等待再度归来之处。
The idea that this festival is taking place at a site that may have been the Isle Of Avalon, that may have been where Jesus came, that may be where Arthur is lying waiting to come again.
那种怪异、神秘的感觉，完全渗透到了魔法氛围之中。
The sense of the weird and the strange and the mysterious absolutely kind of infuses the sense of magic that
他不会在格拉斯顿伯里音乐节期间出现吧？
He's not gonna come during the Glastonbury festival, has he?
他可能会在罗比·威廉姆斯的演出时出现，你知道的。
It's gonna come during, like, some, you know, Robbie Williams appearance or something.
这简直太棒了，不是吗？
It'd be amazing, wouldn't
是啊。
it?
压轴演出。
Headlining.
对他来说会太令人失望了。
It'd be so disappointing for him.
我的意思是，他会出现，你知道，英国会跟他预期的不一样。
I mean, he'd he'd emerge, you know, Britain would not be as he had expected.
这么说吧。
Put it that way.
然而，格拉斯顿伯里，你知道，在所有这些与亚瑟王有关的地点中，比如丁特格尔和温彻斯特，其他地方都基本上死气沉沉了。
And and yet, Glastonbury, you know, of all these kind of these sites, so Tintagel and Winchester and all these other places that have been associated with Arthur, they're basically kind of dead.
我的意思是，那种浪漫的感觉已经消失了。
I mean, there's no the sense of romance is gone.
你去那里只是作为游客。
You go there as tourists.
但我觉得，格拉斯顿伯里有一种强烈的魔法氛围，就像中世纪的朝圣者去那里时可能感受到的一样。
But Glastonbury, I think the vivid sense of magic is there in a way that a pilgrim going there in the Middle Ages might have experienced as well.
我认为这是一个非常独特、与众不同的地方。
I think it's a kind of very unique, distinctive place.
我认为这个播客的关键分歧点其实在于，汤姆，当真正面临选择时，你更愿意去格拉斯顿伯里参加音乐节，而不是去廷塔杰尔的茶室。
I think the key cleavage in this podcast, actually, Tom, is that when push comes to shove, you'd rather go to Glastonbury, to the festival, than to the tea room at Tintagel.
而我更愿意去廷塔杰尔的茶室。
And I'd rather go to the tea room at Tintagel.
也许吧。
Possibly.
也许吧。
Possibly.
这正是这个播客的精彩之处。
That's what makes the podcast work.
我通过说这是对英国神话源头的一种历史学研究来为去格拉斯顿伯里辩护。
I justify going to Glastonbury by saying that it was, you know, historiographical exercise and tapping the sources of English myth.
那你完全可以把它当作一笔可抵税的开支。
You'd probably well, you you could claim for it then as a tax tax deductible expense.
好吧，我们已经谈了电影。
Well so let's talk about we've talked about films.
我觉得我们应该谈谈书籍。
I think we should talk about books.
你有没有特别喜欢的关于亚瑟王故事的历史重述？
Do you have a favorite historical retelling of the of the Arthurian story?
T。
T.
H。
H.
怀特。
White.
T。
T.
H。
H.
怀特。
White.
你看，当他开始变成鱼之类奇怪的东西时，你就不会看到所有那些关于动物的内容了。
See, you don't find all that stuff about the animals when he starts changing into fish and things a bit weird.
我非常喜欢。
I love it.
我喜欢，我喜欢所有的，我也喜欢那本关于梅林的书，就在那里，那本书从未出版过，是他写在背景下的。
And I love I love the I love all of them, and I love the weird one about the book of Merlin, right there, which never got published and is which he wrote against, a backdrop.
我想他是在1940年写的。
I think he wrote it in 1940.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
他成了一个和平主义者，对吧？
He'd become a pacifist, think, hadn't he?
他成了一个和平主义者。
He'd become a pacifist.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他看到了亚瑟王神话的核心主题，因此也看到了他所讲述的故事的主题，那就是如何避免战争。
He saw the great theme of, of the Arthurian myth and therefore of the stories that he was telling as as being how to avoid war.
我认为这恰恰增强了这种讽刺效果。
And I think that it it just kind of heightens the the parody.
但你并不喜欢。
But you're not a fan.
实际上，我觉得这一切都非常奇怪。
I I find all that very strange, actually.
我觉得T。
I think T.
H。
H.
怀特这个人本来就非常奇怪。
White was a very strange man anyway.
一个极其自负的人。
Incredibly egotistical man.
至于开头那个关于小巫师的情节，我的意思是，那些内容成了大家记忆中的卡通，但我最近看的那些部分觉得有点自我放纵。
And, yeah, the stuff with the wart at the beginning when he's the boy, I mean, that's the stuff that became the cartoon that everybody remembers, but the latest stuff I just find a little bit self indulgent.
亚瑟王的版本，我的意思是，有一部由罗斯玛丽·萨特克利夫写的精彩作品，叫《夕阳之剑》，我想。
The version of Arthur, I mean, there's a brilliant version by Rosemary Sutcliffe called Sword at Sunset, I think.
是的。
Yes.
我们之前在《Yeah》里提到过。
Which we mentioned on the Yeah.
我觉得这真的非常好。
Which I think is really, really good.
但我是说，另一位我们提到过的写历史小说的人，他说这些是他最好的作品，我完全同意他的观点。
But the I mean, somebody else who we mentioned in historical novels, he says these are his best books, and I completely agree with him.
伯纳德·康威尔，一些听众可能会说，哦，他只是那种大众市场的作家。
Bernard Cornwell, who some listeners may say, oh, well, he's just sort of mass market.
你的书能在W.
You find his books in W.
H.
H.
史密斯书店找到。
Smith's.
但他的亚瑟王三部曲，我认为是他写得最出色的作品。
But his trilogy, I think, about king Arthur is by far the best thing he's ever written.
你读过这本书吗？
Have you read that?
还没读过。
Haven't.
没有。
No.
很不错。
It's good.
如果你曾经
If you ever
没读过。
read haven't.
他所做的就是，像如今许多作家一样，展现出其中的威尔士特色。
If it's sort of what he does is he he brings out the sort of Welshness of it as writers often do these days.
他融入了所有魔法元素，但方式是让角色们真心相信魔法，而你却能看穿其中的玄机。
And he sort of has all the magic, but in such a way that the people the characters believe in the magic, but you can kind of see through it.
所以你可以把它看作是巧合、把戏，或者随便你怎么想。
So you can see it as coincidence or as tricks or whatever.
而且他做得很好，氛围传达得非常到位。
And he does it very the atmosphere is very well conveyed.
总之，我们来谈谈政治吧。
Anyway, let's talk about politics.
我们来谈谈
Let's talk about
唐尼，我能问个后续问题吗？可以吗？
Could I actually Donnie, can I just have one follow-up Yeah?
关于文化影响方面？
On the kind of the cultural influence?
因为实际上，我想起了我们之前做的关于法西斯主义的播客，对吧？
Because actually, one thinking about the podcast we did about fascism Yes.
就是那些中世纪持剑人物复活的故事，比如瓦格纳。
The the story of of, you know, medieval figures with swords coming back Wagner.
还有圣杯之类的东西。
And grails and all that kind of stuff.
所以圣杯传说影响了瓦格纳的歌剧。
It it so the grail myth feeds into Wagner's operas.
当然。
Of course.
《帕西法尔》。
Parsifal.
是的。
Yeah.
我在想T.H.怀特在1940年写的亚瑟王故事。
I'm thinking about t h White writing about Arthur in 1940.
是的。
Yeah.
某种程度上，这就像夜里不叫的狗——事实上，据我所知，亚瑟王并没有被法西斯主义者所利用。
It's in a way, it's a dog that doesn't bark in the night, the fact that, actually, Arthur is not, far as I know, appropriated by fascists.
或者如果确实有人这么做，我的意思是，我猜肯定有过一些尝试。
Or if it is done I mean, I expect there were efforts.
我对这个了解不多，但我认为可能确实有过一些努力，只是规模太小了。
I don't know enough about it, but I think there probably were efforts, but they were so small scale.
也许亚瑟的形象已经根深蒂固了。
And maybe Arthur had become too deeply rooted.
你觉得是不是正因为这样，他才能抵抗那种‘瓦格纳化’？
Do you think maybe so that he could resist sort of Wagnerization.
我的意思是，你说得对，我们之前做法西斯主义播客时讨论过，法西斯主义确实借鉴了现代主义，但显然也大量吸收了这种新中世纪主义，对吧？
I mean, you're right that there's sort of we we talked when we did about when we did our fascism podcast, we talked about how fascism drew on modernism and sort of but it also obviously drew on this sort of neo medievalism, didn't it?
所以当时有很多骑士和少女的元素
So there were lots of knights and maidens into
希梅尔对这些非常着迷。
So Himmel is very into all this.
但据我所知，英国的法西斯分子并没有自称是……
But as far as I know, the British fascists didn't kind of call themselves the sons of
亚瑟之类的？不。
Arthur or something No.
也许他们会更少
Maybe they'd have been less
成功。
successful.
穿上盔甲而不是黑衬衫。
Dress up in armor rather than black shirts.
是的。
Yes.
如果有任何潜在的法西斯独裁者在听，这就是你们的品牌，你们知道的，我们已经给你们提供了。
There are any potential fascist dictators listening, this is your you know, we've given you your brand.
不。
No.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我 wondering 是否法西斯主义，抱歉。
I I wonder whether fascism sorry.
我在想，亚瑟王那时候是不是太维多利亚了。
I wonder whether king Arthur had then been was too Victorian.
是的。
Yes.
他是不是太认同那种留着胡子的威廉·莫里斯式人物了。
Whether he was whether he was too identified with kind of William Morrissey people with beards
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
知道吗，伯恩·琼斯之类的人。
Know, Burne Jones and and stuff.
网球。
Tennis.
所以其实并不是这样。
So it wasn't really yeah.
所以这并不适合那种前瞻性的、富有攻击性的风格——亚瑟王传说根本没有什么攻击性，对吧？
And so it wasn't really appropriate for kind of forward looking, aggressive there's nothing aggressive about the Arthurian legend, is there?
我的意思是，在这种经典的维多利亚版本中，他们实际上并没有进行多少战斗，更多的是晕倒、望着窗外，还有梳理他们长长的头发。
I mean, they don't actually do that much fighting in this sort of canonical victor there's a lot of swooning and sort of looking out of windows and, you know, combing their very long hair.
骑士们并没有太多这样的行为。
There's not a lot of kind from a knight.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
实际上，《莫尔达斯》中最震撼的一刻，就是最后的战斗——莫德雷德和亚瑟互相残杀，他们的士兵全部阵亡，圆桌骑士也全军覆没。
Actually, what's one of the most powerful moments in, the Mordartha is when the last battle where Mordred and Arthur slaughter each other and all their men, and they're all dead and all the knights are up at the round table.
而就在那时，农民第一次出现在叙事中，马洛礼描述他们悄悄爬上战场，剥取尸体上的盔甲。
And then almost for the first time, peasants appear in the narrative, And Mallory describes them creeping onto the battlefield and and stripping them of their armor.
而这就是普通人在这部作品中唯一出现的时刻。
And that's the only point that ordinary people appear in
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
我猜是这样。
I assume.
是的。
Yeah.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
有意思。
Interesting.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
这很有趣，不是吗？
It's interesting, isn't it?
因为正如你提到的，亚瑟王传说中根本不存在公众的概念。
Because there there are no now that you mentioned it, there are there's no sense of the the public in the Arthurian.
他们只是像一群乌合之众在欢呼，而我。
They're just sort of yoggles cheering and And I
我认为这正是为什么，总的来说，许多对这段历史的虚构作品都会回到黑暗时代。
think I think that's why, by and large I mean, a lot of historical fictionalizations of this tend to go back to the dark ages.
那就是他们所呈现的亚瑟，你知道的，作为一位。
That's what they you know, it's Arthur as a
军阀、罗马人，或类似的角色，
warlord or Roman or whatever,
因为这样你就能将故事设定在泥泞和尘土之中，没错。
because then you can situate it back in the mud and the the dirt Yes.
以及一切。
And everything.
所以，汤姆，我想我们已经讲得差不多了，虽然还没彻底讲完亚瑟王，但恐怕我们的听众已经忍无可忍了，而这更重要。
So, Tom, think we've we have well, we haven't exhausted Arthur, but we've probably exhausted our listeners' patience, which is more important.
让我们以西蒙·乔治的问题结束。
Let's end with Simon George's question.
西蒙·乔治基本上问：他是否真实存在重要吗？
Simon George says, basically, does it matter if he was a real person?
他引用了《枪杀自由·瓦伦斯》中的一句话。
He quotes the man who shot Liberty Valens.
这是西部，先生。
This is the West, sir.
当事实与传说碰撞时，印刷传说。
When fact and legend collide, print the legend.
所以，关于历史真相的整个讨论真的无关紧要吗？
So is the whole conversation about the historical truth irrelevant, really?
而传说才是最重要的东西吗？
And is the myth the thing that matters?
我认为他是否真实存在这个问题，正是吸引人的部分。
I think the question of whether he's real or not is a part of the fascination.
所以从这个意义上说，我们根本无法证明它。
So in in that sense, I mean, there's no way we can ever prove it.
我认为最终你必须对此保持不可知的态度。
I think you've got to be agnostic about it, ultimately.
我的个人看法是他不存在，但我无法证明他不存在。
I mean, I did personally don't think he existed, but I can't prove he didn't exist.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这正是它迷人之处的一部分——你能够将这个非凡的叙事置于某个历史时刻之中。
And I think that that that is that's absolutely a part of the fascination of it, the the the sense that you can situate this extraordinary narrative perhaps at a historical moment.
但我认为，我们不知道它是否真实，这正是它吸引力的一个根本所在。
But but I don't think I think I think the fact that we don't know whether it's true or not is a a pretty fundamental part of its appeal.
你怎么看？
What do you think?
不。
No.
我认为，这正是其神秘性所在，也是核心所在。
I think that's obviously the mystery of it is absolutely the core of it.
我想，我们在制作史蒂芬·弗莱的特洛伊播客时曾讨论过一个问题，那就是特洛伊传说是否会消亡。
I think, I mean, one of the things we talked about when we did our Stephen Fry Troy podcast, we talked about whether the legend of Troy would die.
但实际上，亚瑟王的故事我认为永远不会消亡，至少在可预见的未来不会。
And actually, Arthur is one story that I don't think will ever die, or at least not in the foreseeable future.
它确实一直延续着，你看，它在《指环王》中就能看到。
And it does live on in all the I mean, you can see it in the Lord of the Rings.
你也能在《星球大战》和所有这些伟大的流行文化巨作中看到它的影子。
You can see it in Star Wars and all the all these sort of great pop culture leviathans.
我想，至于亚瑟是否真实存在，谁在乎呢？
And I think the afterlife, who cares about whether Arthur was real or not?
因为他的后世影响实际上更有趣，也 arguably 更重要。
Because his afterlife is actually more interesting and arguably more important.
无论如何，他终将归来。
Anyway He comes again.
确实如此。
He does indeed.
他一直在出现。
Well, he keeps coming.
今天我们就到这里。
That's all we've got time for today.
这个话题显然让很多听众着迷，如果你对听到的内容有任何看法，请在Twitter上联系我们。
It's a subject that clearly fascinates a lot of you, so please do get in touch with us on Twitter if you've got any observations about what you've heard.
我们周四再见，因为我们现在每周有两期节目，下一期《历史其余部分》中，伟大的迈克尔·伍德将与我们畅谈中国相关话题。
We'll be back on Thursday because we've got two podcasts a week now, and we've got another episode of the rest is history when the great Michael Wood will be with us talking all things China.
暂时再见。
Bye for now.
再见。
Goodbye.
感谢收听《历史其余部分》。
Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.
如需获取附加剧集、提前收听、无广告收听以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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