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你好，欢迎来到《余下的都是历史》。
Hello, and welcome to the rest is history.
今天的话题是我自从想到这个播客点子以来就一直期待的。
Today's topic is one I've been looking forward to ever since we came up with the idea for this podcast.
它是奇怪的战争。
It is weird wars.
我们最喜爱的那些冷门、鲜为人知、色彩斑斓，或干脆就是怪异的战争，或许值得我们在一开始就提一下。
Our favorite obscure, little known, colorful, or just downright strange wars is probably worthwhile saying in the beginning.
当然，每场战争都伴随着巨大的苦难，我们并不是在轻视这一点。
Of course, every war involves an awful lot of suffering, so we're not making light of that.
好吧，至少不会超过得体的限度。
Well, no more than is tasteful anyway.
我那位一向得体的嘉宾是汤姆·霍兰德。
My my ever tasteful guest is Tom Holland.
你好，汤姆。
Hello, Tom.
嘉宾。
Guest.
我不是你的嘉宾，但当你
I'm not your guest, but when
来
I come
你的付费主持人时，
to your paid presenter,
别试图把我挤开。
stop trying to elbow me off.
我们来打一场战争吧。
Let's have a war about it.
2021年的播客战争。
The pod war of 2021.
我希望如此。
I I hope.
我攒了这话说了好几个星期了。
I've been saving that up for weeks.
我在想，
I'm thinking,
如果我用一些无关紧要的话分散他的注意力，然后趁机说出来，他会不会注意不到？
can when can I if I distract him with some just sort of blather, then I can sneak that in, and he won't notice?
一旦说出口，就收不回来了。
And then once it's said, it is said.
我注意到了。
I noticed.
我注意到了。
I noticed.
作为主持人，多米尼克，也许你愿意说明一下具体是什么形式？
Well, as the host, Dominic, perhaps you'd like to spell out what what what the format is.
所以我们每人要选出五场战争。
So we're gonna choose five wars each.
尽管对阵亡者深表尊重，我们还是要讨论这些战争以及它们的奇特之处。
And with all due respect to the casualties, we're going to discuss them and what's strange about them.
然后，就这样了，真的。
And then and that's it, really.
这非常简单。
It's very simple.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yep.
也许我们可以公开投票选出谁的最好。
Maybe we can have a public vote on who has the best one.
是的。
Yeah.
正是如此。
Exactly.
既然我们还没有提问环节，我们当然欢迎反馈，听众可以选出自己最喜欢的部分。
Since we're not take since we haven't taken questions, we'll we'll obviously welcome feedback, and people can choose their favorites.
是的。
Yeah.
还有那个我们认为最被误解的。
And the one that we think we've most misrepresented.
所有我们遗漏掉的。
All the one that we've missed out.
我敢肯定听众们会有他们自己的看法，他们
I'm sure listeners will have their own their own They
确实如此。
will indeed.
我想也值得提一下，我们是从舒适富裕的英国来做这个节目的。
And I suppose it's worth saying as well, we're doing this from comfortable, prosperous Britain.
这些战争对我们来说很奇怪，当然，对参战国的人们来说并不奇怪。
These wars seem weird to us, of course, they don't seem weird to the people in the countries involved.
因此，在某种程度上，它们反映了我们的无知和自我中心。
So to some extent, they reflect our ignorance and solipsism, I suppose.
是的。
Yes.
但有这个前提，你先来吧？
But with that caveat, why don't you go first?
说说你的一个战争。
Give one of your wars.
好的。
Okay.
我先从我列表中最古老的一场战争开始，它发生在五月，是第一次神圣战争。
I'm going to kick off with the oldest war I've got on my list, which dates from May, and it's the first sacred war.
这实际上让我们回到了之前播客中提到的一个主题，那就是德尔斐。
And it actually takes us back to a theme we touched on in the previous podcast, which is Delphi.
这场战争由一群希腊城邦发动，他们担心一个叫基拉的城市——这是人们前往德尔斐时登陆的港口——正变得过于强势，几乎想把德尔斐纳入自己的权力体系。
And it was fought by a league of Greek cities who were anxious that a city called Kira, which was the port that people would land when they wanted to go to Delphi, that Kira was becoming too dominant and essentially wanted to absorb Delphi into its own framework of power.
于是，一个由多个城市组成的联盟联合起来，其中包括位于伯罗奔尼撒半岛北部、正对基拉城的西库翁，还有雅典以及其他几个城市。
So a league of cities, which included Sikyon, which was a city on the North of the Peloponnese, directly opposite Kira, and Athens, several other cities as well, got together.
他们说，这是阿波罗命令他们这样做的。
And they were told to do this, they said, by Apollo.
阿波罗基本上说，不仅要攻占基拉，还要彻底摧毁它以及周边所有土地，让它们变得无法居住。
And Apollo basically said, not only capture Kira, but nuke it, nuke all the lands around it, make them uninhabitable.
我不希望任何人再在那里生活。
I don't want anyone ever living there again.
于是，这个联盟围攻基拉，切断了水源，导致基拉城内所有人开始因缺水而死亡。
And so what this league does is they lay siege to Kira and they cut off the water supply so that everyone in Kira starts to die of thirst.
然后，他们取来一种名为嚏根草的有毒植物，将其投入水源中。
And then they take a poisonous plant called hellebore and they put it in the water supply.
毒物随水流回城，基拉城所有人都饮用了它，结果全都
And the water goes back in and everyone in Kira drinks it and they are all
中毒了。
poisoned.
哇。
Wow.
真残酷。
It's harsh.
确实很残酷。
It is harsh.
在某种程度上，我们还不太确定。
And in some way, we're not quite sure.
基拉周围的所有土地确实被毁坏了，因为我们有保萨尼阿斯的记录，他是一位地理学家，写于数个世纪后的一月。
The lands all around Kira are indeed left devastated because we have the record of Pausanias, who is a geographer writing around January, so centuries after this war.
他说，基拉周围的平原完全荒芜。
And he says that the plains around Chira are completely barren.
人们在那里不种树。
People don't plant trees there.
这片土地仍然受到诅咒。
The land is still under a curse.
阿波罗的愤怒仍铭刻于此。
The anger of Apollo still marks it.
而且，我们在上一期播客中谈到过，阿波罗的祭司实际上是唯一的职业祭司。
And again, we talked in the last podcast about how the priests of Apollo were really the only professional priests.
而这正是由于神圣战争。
And that's because of the sacred war.
本质上，这个联盟聚集在一起，认为德尔斐必须是一个独立的神庙建筑群。
It's essentially because this league get together and say that Delphi, it has to be a kind of independent temple complex.
它不能受任何一个城邦的控制。
It cannot come under the influence of any one city.
但我选择这一点，是因为我认为这实际上是最早利用植物毒害他人的例子。
But I choose this because I think it's kind of the first example really of using plants to poison people.
这暗示了化学战的雏形。
It's kind of hint of chemical warfare there.
化学战争。
Chemical warfare.
希腊人并没有觉得这种做法是不道德的，反而认为这是一种机智的手段。
And there's no sense that the Greeks had that this was bad form, that they thought it was crafty.
是的。
Yes.
这件事被清楚地铭记下来，因为它被视为极其恶劣，需要阿波罗的许可。
It's clearly remembered because it was seen as being terrible, and it required the sanction of Apollo.
我认为，一个有趣的背景是，人们认为某种极其阴险的事情发生了：关于这件事的起因，有多种说法。
And an interesting context, I think, for the sense that something quite sinister had happened is that suppose Well, there are various accounts about how this came about.
我认为这暗示了传说的成分。
I think this is a hint of legend there.
但有一种说法称，提出这个主意的人名叫内布罗斯，他是医神阿斯克勒庇俄斯的追随者。
But one of the accounts says that the person who comes up with this idea is a guy called Nebros, who is a follower of Asclepius, who is the god of healing.
他的一个后裔据说是希波克拉底。
And one of his descendants supposedly is Hippocrates.
而希波克拉底，当然就是那位提出希波克拉底誓言的人——成为医生时发誓绝不伤害病人。
And Hippocrates of course, the guy with the Hippocratic Oath that if you become a doctor, swear you won't do people any harm.
有一种观点认为，希波克拉底誓言是为了弥补他的祖先在第一次神圣战争中的所作所为。
And there is a thesis that the Hippocratic Oath is an attempt to make amends for what his ancestor did in the first sacred war.
所以，无论如何，这是我首选的观点。
So anyway, so that's my first choice.
但你刚才说的是第一次神圣战争。
But you said it's the first sacred war.
还有其他的神圣战争。
There are other sacred wars.
是的。
Yes.
还有其他的神圣战争，但它们并不完全像
There are further sacred wars, but they're not quite
没那么令人兴奋。
not as exciting.
不那么值得谈论。
As as much to talk about.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
说得通。
Fair enough.
好吧。
Alright.
我要强烈推荐我的第一个选择。
I'm gonna go in go in really strong with my first one.
我的第一个是卡努杜斯战争。
So my first one is the war of Canudos.
你读过马里奥·巴尔加斯·略萨写的《世界末日之战》这本书吗？
Have you ever a book called the war of the end of the world by Mario Vargas Llosa?
嗯。
Uh-huh.
所以，是的，在这种情况下，你会知道这场战争发生在1896到1897年的巴西。
So, yes, so in that case, you'll know that it's about a war in Brazil in eighteen ninety six to seven.
基本上，当时的情况是，巴西作为庞大的种植园持续了数百年。
So basically, what happened was the Brazilians Brazil was this colossal plantation effectively for several hundred years.
到了19世纪80年代末，巴西皇帝佩德罗二世废除了奴隶制。
And then at the end of the 1880s, the Brazilian emperor abolished slavery, Don Pedro II.
但随后军方将他赶下台，他们希望他离开。
But then the sort of militarily kicked him out, and they they wanted him to go.
接下来的十年里，巴西非常不稳定，充满紧张和冲突。
And for the next ten years, Brazil was very unstable, very sort of a sort of tense, conflicted place.
在这片分裂的土地上，一位名叫安东尼奥·孔塞莱罗——即安东尼奥顾问——的先知出现了。他提议在巴伊亚州这片偏远贫困地区建立社区，那里居住着大量前奴隶和混血人口。
And in this fragmented landscape, this sort of prophet figure called Antonio Consilero, Antonio the counselor, he he comes along, and he's basically says, let's set up in in Bahia, in this sort of back country, very poor, big slave, ex slave population, a lot of mixed race people as well.
他说，让我们在名为卡努杜斯的地方建立一个神圣的社区，等待已故的葡萄牙中世纪国王塞巴斯蒂昂归来。
He says, let's set up this this sort of sacred community at a place called Canudos, and we'll wait there for the coming of the the late port the medieval Portuguese king, Sebastio Sebastien.
塞巴斯蒂昂会到来，并带来新耶路撒冷和更好的时代。
Sebastian will come and and he will bring the sort of the new Jerusalem and better times.
所以，成千上万的人前往这个地方定居。
So all these people, I mean, thousands of people go to live at this place.
而巴西军队都是世俗主义者，共济会在巴西势力强大，因此共济会和启蒙思想等影响深远。
And the Brazilian military who are all secularists and Freemasonry is very strong in Brazil, so that Freemasonry and sort of enlightened thinking and stuff.
他们说这些人是落后的。
They say these people are backward.
他们是保皇派。
They're monarchists.
他们会拖垮整个国家。
They're gonna bring the country down.
我们必须镇压并彻底消灭他们。
We must crush them and extirpate them.
于是他们派兵进攻卡努杜斯，发动了多次攻击。
And they send troops, and there's multiple attacks on Canudos.
最终，军队取得了胜利。
And, eventually, the military wins.
他们摧毁了这些定居点。
They destroy the the settlements.
他们杀死了大多数人。
They kill most of the people.
他们杀死了大约两万五千人。
They kill about 25,000 people.
这是一场非凡的冲突。
And it's this extraordinary conflict.
一方面，你面对的是进步、自由、秩序和现代性的力量，在小说中以及我们对这场战争的认知里，他们实际上是反派。
So on the one side, you've got the forces of kind of progress and liberty and order and modernity who are effectively in in the novel and in our sense of the war, they're the kind of bad guys.
而另一方面，你看到的是被剥夺权利的匪徒、前妓女、前奴隶，他们大多是黑人，聚集在这座城市里，最终全部被杀害。
And then the other, you have the dispossessed bandits, ex prostitutes, ex slaves who are tend to be black, who are in this city, and they end up all being killed.
所以这是一场令人悲伤的、奇特的、非常奇特的悲剧
So it's kind of a sad it's a strange, very strange, but sad
故事。
story.
它在南美洲很有名吗？
Is it famous in South America?
你知道吗？
Do you know?
我觉得
I think
它在巴西很有名。
it's famous in Brazil.
对。
Right.
我觉得，你知道的，西方世界里没人了解巴西，不是西方世界。
And I think, you know, Brazilian nobody in the West in in Not the West.
在西欧，除非是葡萄牙人，否则真的没人了解巴西历史。
In the in Western Europe really knows any Brazilian history, I suppose, unless they're Portuguese.
我们在英国当然也不了解。
We certainly don't know it in in England.
我的意思是，你知道，这就像一个黑洞，我想。
I mean, you know, it's a it's a black hole, I guess.
它的怪异之处，我认为，源于我们从盎格鲁-撒克逊视角来看没有任何真正的参照点。
And and it's it's strangeness, I think, comes from the fact that, you know, we have no real reference points from an sort of Anglo Saxon perspective.
是的。
Yeah.
但同时也因为它几乎就像是瓦科围攻事件的放大版。
But also because it's it's one it's it's it's almost like the Waco siege writ large.
你还记得九十年代的瓦科围攻吗？
Remember the Waco siege in the in the nineties?
它带有一丝那种味道。
It's got a slight element of that about it.
但由于它根植于奴隶制、极端种族主义以及对进步的狂热信仰，巴西军队认为我们必须彻底摧毁这些人，因为他们太落后了。
But because it's rooted in this sort of world of slavery and of of intense racism and of sort of this fanaticism about progress, So the Brazilian army just think we need to sort of completely destroy these people because they're backward.
这让你想到南美文学中的魔幻现实主义传统，实际上
It makes you think the whole magical realist tradition in South American fiction that actually
现实主义的。
the realist.
这确实很现实主义。
It is quite realist.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，真的发生了一些奇怪的事情。
Mean, strange things are really are going on.
好吧，我打算
Well, I'm gonna come
回到南美洲谈一场后来的战争，因为我觉得这里的人都不太了解这些战争，而它们往往极其暴力和血腥。
back to South America with a later war because I think their wars are so little known here and often they're incredibly violent and bloody.
好的。
Okay.
好吧，我下一个选择也有一位先知，但是一位女性先知。
Well, I've my my next choice also has a prophet, but it's a female prophet.
她出现在690年代至7月的伍麦叶王朝柏柏尔战争中。
And she features in the Umayyad Berber war of the 690s to July.
哇。
Wow.
这是一场冷门的战争。
That is a niche war.
这
This
这是一场惊人的战争。
is an astonishing war.
这场战争发生在阿拉伯人征服南地中海沿岸期间。
So it's taking place during the Arab conquest of the South Mediterranean Coast.
他们已经征服了埃及。
So they've conquered Egypt.
他们向西席卷。
They sweep westwards.
他们抵达了拜占庭帝国的非洲行省，该地区由君士坦丁堡统治，包括重要城市迦太基。
They come to the Byzantine province of Africa, so ruled from Constantinople, including the great city of Carthage.
迦太基陷落了。
It falls.
而指挥官率领部队继续向西，朝直布罗陀海峡乃至西班牙方向推进。
And the arrow commander, his troops are now looking westwards towards the Straits Of Gibraltar and ultimately Spain.
但要实现这一目标，他们必须先穿越以顽强著称的柏柏尔人领地。
But to do that, they have to get past the Berbers who are notoriously tough opponents.
他们推翻了拜占庭人，推翻了西哥特人，推翻了罗马人，也推翻了迦太基人。
They depose the Byzantines, they depose the Visigoths, they depose the Romans, they depose the Carthaginians.
他们是极其顽强的对手。
They're very, very tough opponents.
阿拉伯人过于自信，大举进军，却遭遇了由一位名叫迪亚的女王领导的柏柏尔人。
And the Arabs are overconfident and they go sweeping in and they come up against the Berbers who are led by a queen called Diya.
但她更广为人知的名字是阿拉伯语中的‘女先知’——卡希娜。
But she is better known by the Arab word for prophetess, al Qahina.
据说她拥有与鸟类交流的能力。
And she is supposed to have had the gift of being able to speak to birds.
她得到了消息。
She was of informed.
那些鸟是她的侦察兵。
They were her scouts.
据说她在新婚之夜谋杀了丈夫。
She was meant to have murdered her husband on her wedding night.
根据中世纪阿拉伯著名历史学家伊本·赫勒敦的说法，她据信是犹太人。
And according to Ibn Khaldun, the great Arab historian writing in the Middle Ages, she's meant to have been Jewish.
她并非以色列后裔，而是皈依了犹太教，尽管还有其他传统认为她是基督徒或异教徒。
Not descended from children of Israel, but she had adopted the Jewish faith, Although there are other traditions that say that she was a Christian or that she was a pagan.
总的来说，我们对她知之甚少，但几乎所有我们知道的关于她的事都充满奇幻色彩。
Basically, we don't know very much about her, but almost everything we do know about her is fantastical.
很明显，她在六月的一场河边大战中击败了阿拉伯人。
And it's clear that she defeats the Arabs in a great battle beside a river in June.
阿拉伯人撤退了，他们舔舐伤口，迪亚担心他们会卷土重来。
And the Arabs retreat and they lick their wounds and Diya is anxious that they're going to come back.
于是，据传她试图通过摧毁一切来制造焦土政策，让阿拉伯人无物可掠、无粮可依。
So what she does supposedly is to try and create a call on sanitaire by destroying everything so that the Arabs won't have anything to forage or live off.
但这只是疏远了她的子民。
But this just alienates her subjects.
当阿拉伯人再次卷土重来时，这次她失败了，被追赶到山区，并在战斗中丧生。
And so when the Arabs come back, this time she loses, she gets pursued into the mountains and she gets killed in battle.
据说她在临死前告诉她的儿子们：去成为穆斯林吧。
And she's supposed before she dies to tell her sons, go and become Muslim.
她还据说对所有柏柏尔人说：成为穆斯林吧。
And she's supposed to say to all the Berbers, become Muslim.
对。
Right.
这在阿拉伯传统中竟然如此便利，真是巧合。
How convenient that that's in the Arab tradition.
我想，她是北非的布狄卡。
She's, I suppose, the North African Boudicca.
她是那位反抗帝国主义的伟大女战士。
She's the great warrior queen who's fighting the imperialists.
而她据称是犹太人这一点，使她在十九世纪成为备受关注的人物。
And the fact that she's supposedly Jewish as well made her a subject of great interest in the nineteenth century.
法国人将她用作抵抗伊斯兰教的象征，而阿尔及利亚人则将她用作反抗法国的象征。
She was used by the French as a kind of emblem of resistance to Islam, and she was used by people in Algeria as an emblem of resistance against the French.
她是一个相当灵活且富有力量的象征。
She's quite a malleable and potent symbol.
所以这是在现代阿尔及利亚，对吧？
So this is in modern day Algeria, right?
是的，现代阿尔及利亚。
Yes, modern day Algeria.
她最初为什么？
Why she initially?
因为阿拉伯人所向披靡，不是吗？
Because the Arabs had carried all before them, hadn't they?
意思是，他们势不可挡。
Mean, they were unstoppable.
我认为柏柏尔人非常、非常坚韧。
I think the Berbers were just very, very tough.
非常
Very
坚韧。
tough.
而且他们可能被对方低估了——没错。
And maybe they had been underestimated by the- Yeah.
而且阿拉伯人沿着北海岸行进，那里有城市，更容易给马匹补水和补给，而他们在更恶劣的地形中被击败了。
And also the Arabs are going along the North Coast, where there are cities, where it's much easier to water your horses, get supplies, and they're defeated in more hostile terrain.
没错，千万别深入内陆。
Yeah, never go into the interior.
这就是教训。
That's the lesson.
永远不要进入内陆。
Never go into the interior.
永远不要进入内陆。
Never go into the interior.
但我选择她，是因为我认为那些通过鸟类得知敌人动向的女先知，不可能在历史上毫无依据，所以我向你们介绍阿尔卡赫娜。
But I choose her because I think that prophetesses who were kept informed of their enemies movement by birds, don't think there were nothing in the historical So I give you Alcahena.
既然你已经讲了一个非洲的例子，尤其是涉及深入内陆的，那我要选一场非常奇特的非洲战争，那场战争中人们也深入了内陆。
Well, since you've done an African one, especially one where people go into the interior, I'm going to choose a very strange African war in which people go into the interior.
这是1867至1868年英国远征阿比西尼亚的战役。
So this is the British expedition to Abyssinia, eighteen sixty seven, sixty eight.
如果听众们读过弗拉什曼系列小说，那这就是弗拉什曼在埃塞俄比亚的故事，你还记得吧。
So if you've for the listeners who've read the Flashman books, this is Flashman in Ethiopia, if you remember that.
这场战争基本上始于一封未获回复的信件。
So this is a this is a war that basically begins with an unanswered letter.
所以你有阿比西尼亚、埃塞俄比亚，他们的国王叫特沃德罗斯二世。
So you have Abyssinia, Ethiopia, and their king is called Tewardros II.
在英国，人们称他为西奥多。
People called him Theodore in Britain.
他是个现代化的推动者。
And he's a sort of modernizer.
大家都说他是个伟大的浪漫人物，像罗宾汉一样的国王，想要打破旧有土地贵族的权力，把国家拖向十九世纪，建设各种设施等等。
Everyone said he was this great romantic figure, a kind of Robin Hood of a king who was wanted to break the power of the old kind of land owning elite and sort of drag his country towards the nineteenth century and build things and all this business.
他引发了大量叛乱，并希望从欧洲获得军事援助。
And he provoked a lot of rebellions, and he wanted military assistance from from Europe.
所以他写了信给俄罗斯、法国和英国，我想是这样。
So he writes these letters to, I think, Russia, France, and Britain.
他给维多利亚女王写信，说：您能给我一些军事援助吗？
And he writes to Queen Victoria and says, can you please send me some military aid?
维多利亚女王忽视了他的来信，外交大臣告诉她：不要回信。
And Queen Victoria ignored his was told by the foreign office, don't write back.
你就别管他了，你知道的，别理他。
Just, you know, don't you you know, ignore him.
他就会走的。
He'll go away.
他是阿比西尼亚的皇帝。
He's the emperor of Abyssinia.
你根本不用考虑他。
You need to give him no thought at all.
而且，你知道的，她可能还有别的事要操心。
And, you know, she's probably got other things on her mind.
于是两年过去了。
So two years went by.
他对自己没有收到维多利亚女王的回信感到愤怒，他问：俄罗斯和法国回信了吗？
He was outraged that he didn't get a reply from Queen Victoria, which he Did the Russians and French reply?
没有。
No.
他们根本没回复。
They didn't reply at all.
我的意思是，就是这样。
I mean, that was the sort of yeah.
我的意思是，他谁也没得到帮助。
I mean, he didn't get any help from anybody.
人们对待他非常恶劣。
People people treated him with people treated him very badly.
但他尤其对维多利亚女王感到愤怒。
But he was particularly outraged about queen Victoria.
作为报复，他开始抓捕传教士、英国商人以及路过的其他人，把他们关押为人质，直到收到维多利亚女王的回复。
And in revenge, started capturing missionaries and sort of British traders and people wandering through and locking up as hostages until he got a reply from Queen Victoria.
是的。
Yeah.
说得通。
Fair enough.
于是英国派出远征军去镇压他。
So the British had an expedition to to crush him.
这支远征军带着军队前来。
And this expedition came with the army.
他们从印度出发，由罗伯特·纳皮尔爵士率领，他是印度一位著名的将领。
It came from India led by sir Robert Napier, who was a leading sort of general in India.
他们组织了一次规模庞大的军事远征。
And they have this colossal military expedition.
他们在红海登陆。
They land on the Red Sea.
他们必须带上各种工程师和其他人员，以便穿越400英里，深入埃塞俄比亚腹地。
They have to take all kinds of engineers and things to basically get them across 400 miles into the the sort of heart of Ethiopia.
他们其实并不清楚自己要去哪里。
They don't really know where they're going.
这简直是一次真正的、大胆的孤注一掷。
You know, it's this sort of real real sort of leap in the dark.
他们走了这么远。
And they go all this way.
我的意思是，他们走了400英里。
I mean, they go 400 miles.
到奥德罗斯时，他退守到自己的山地堡垒，一个叫马格达拉的地方，那里有传教士和囚犯。
To Oddros, he retreats to his sort of mountain citadel, a place called Magdala with the missionaries, with the sort of prisoners.
他决心坚守到底。
And he's determined to hold out.
于是他们围攻，并击败了他的军队。
And so they lay siege, and they defeat his army.
英军攻了进去。
And the British break in.
讽刺的是，他用一把来自维多利亚的决斗手枪自杀了。
And ironically, he shoots himself with a a dueling pistol that was a present from Victoria.
是的。
Yeah.
而且
And
我们是不是掠夺了各种东西，把它们带回大英博物馆？
and do do we do we loot all kinds of stuff and bring it back to the British Museum?
就是这种事。
That kind of thing.
然后正是如此。
And then exactly.
然后我们回到家，说：你知道，今后如果我们不回你的信，你要好好表现，别太难过。
And then we sort of came home again and said, you know, in future, when we don't reply to your letters, you know, behave yourself and don't take it so badly.
所以在《弗拉什曼》系列小说中，弗拉什曼以一种我们之前播客中讨论过的历史小说方式呈现了这件事。
So in the Flashman books, Flashman sort of presents it as a we were talking about historical fiction in one of the previous podcasts.
而《弗拉什曼》一书实际上将这个故事描绘得相当悲伤，特奥多尔只是想回一封信。
And the Flashman book actually presents it as quite a sad story that Theodore just wants to reply to his letter.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我完全站在他那边。
Well, I'm completely on his side.
英国人赢了，但阿比西尼亚人死了好几百人，我想。
The British lost so the Abyssiners lost hundreds of people, I think.
英国人只死了两个。
The British lost two.
整个远征行动中，我们只损失了两个人。
We lost two men in the whole expedition.
因为我们有加特林机枪，而他们没有。
Because we had the Gatling gun and they did not.
正是如此。
Precisely.
我们拥有所有这些先进技术，而对方却只拿着刀、矛和火枪作战。
We had all this technology and, you know, we're just fighting people with swords and spears and muskets.
好吧，算了吧。
Well, okay.
好吧
Well,
我再讲一个，然后我们就休息。
time for one more from me, and then we'll have the break.
多米尼克，我特意选了这个，因为我觉得你会明白我为什么选它。
And Dominic, I chose this one especially for you because I think that you're going to pick up on why I've chosen it.
这是公元955年的德意志-匈牙利战争。
It's the German Hungarian War of nine fifty five.
哇。
Wow.
是莱希河之战吗？
Is that the of Yes, the River
莱希河之战。
Battle of the River Lech.
这场战役的双方是萨克森国王。
And the two contestants on this, we have the Saxon kings.
萨克森国王拥有高度机动的重骑兵。
Saxon kings are highly mobile, heavy cavalry.
他们拥有权力之矛，据传这把长矛曾刺穿了基督在十字架上的侧身，具有令人恐惧的威力。
They're in possession of the spear of power, the spear that supposedly pierced the side of Christ on the cross and is possessed of a terrifying potency.
权力之矛。
Spear of power.
太惊人了。
That's amazing.
他们以查理曼大帝乃至罗马帝国为榜样，但已不存在帝国。
And they look back to the example of Charlemagne and ultimately of the Roman Empire, but there is no empire.
那个帝国已经消失了。
That is gone.
所以没有皇帝。
So no emperors.
而另一方是匈牙利人，他们高度机动，定居在喀尔巴阡平原上。
And on the other side, we have the Hungarians who are highly mobile, people who've settled on the Carpathian Plain.
凭借他们的马匹，他们能够对基督教欧洲发动突袭。
With their horses, they're able to launch raids against Christian Europe.
基督徒认为他们无法抵挡，令人极度恐惧。
Christians find them impossible to hold off, completely terrifying.
据说匈牙利人会喝血。
The Hungarians are supposed to drink blood.
他们被视为魔鬼的恶魔子嗣，是末日的预兆。
They're seen as demonic children of the devil portents of the apocalypse.
因此，这一切的背景都笼罩在善与恶、魔鬼与天使的对抗之中，人们感到某种模式正在时间的洪流中被书写，这一切为匈牙利人最终的入侵提供了背景——那时他们不再仅骑马而来，还携带着攻城器械。
So the whole backdrop to this is lit up by a sense of the clash of good and evil, of the satanic and the angelic, and the feeling that patterns are being written on the flux of time, all of which provides the background for what is the ultimate Hungarian invasion, where they come not with horses but with siege engines as well.
这一次，他们试图征服。
And this time they're trying to conquer.
他们的目标是奥格斯堡。
And their target is Augsburg.
他们带来了巨大的攻城槌和攻城器械。
And they bring huge battering ram, siege engines.
消息传到了奥托那里，他当时在萨克森北部，请求他前来救援。
And the message goes to Otto, who is up in the North in Saxony, please come to our rescue.
与此同时，奥格斯堡的市民必须坚守城池。
And in the meanwhile, the citizens of Augsburg have to hold off.
他们由奥格斯堡主教乌尔里希领导，这位老人留着长长的白胡子，骑马在城墙上巡视，凝视着来自东方的庞大敌军。有一次，城门被攻城槌撞破，乌尔里希站在那里高举十字架，阻止匈牙利大军涌入，人们赶来支援，最终成功守住了城门。
And they are led in the siege by the Bishop of Augsburg, Ulrich, guy with a great long flowing white beard who rides around on his horse on the battlements gazing out of mighty hordes of the East who have flown And at one point the gates are smashed by the battering ram and Ulrich stands there holding up his cross to stop the Hungarian hordes from coming in and people come to the rescue and they're able to hold up the gate.
就在城市即将陷落之际，奥格斯堡的居民听到了号角声，抬头望向山丘，发现奥托率领的重装骑兵正疾驰而下，击溃了匈牙利大军，敌军被踏倒在地。当晚，在奥格斯堡郊外平原上垂死者的哀嚎中，奥托被他的士兵们拥戴为‘皇帝’。六年之后，他在罗马加冕为帝，帝国之主重现人间。
Just when it seems the city's about to fall, people in Augsburg hear the battle horns and they look up to the hill and they're arriving is cavalry, the heavy cavalry led by Otto who charges down the hill, shatters the Hungarian hordes, they're trampled down and that evening amid the cries and howls of the dying across the plains beyond Augsburg, Otto is hailed by his troops as Imperator, as Emperor and six years later in Rome he is crowned as Emperor and it is the return of the Imperator.
我之所以讲这个，是因为其中明显有《王者归来》的影子，我知道你是托尔金的粉丝。
So I give you that because there are clearly echoes there of Return of the King and I know you're a Tolkien fan.
当这期播客发布时，我觉得应该在下面配上《指环王》的原声音乐来配合你的独白。
When this podcast goes out, I think they should put under it the Lord of the Rings soundtrack for your monologue.
人们可以聆听
People can listen to
一遍又一遍。
it on their loop.
好吧，带着这种略显夸张的语气，我们先休息一下。
Okay, so on that perhaps slightly histrionic tone, let's go for a break.
我们还为你准备了五个更奇怪的战争。
We've got five more weird wars for you.
你好，欢迎回到本期《历史的其余部分》。
Hello, welcome back to this episode of The Rest of This History.
我们正在盘点十大奇怪战争，我五个，多米尼克五个。
We're doing our top 10 weird wars, five from me, five from Dominic.
多米尼克，轮到你了，你的第三个选择。
Dominic, your turn, your third choice.
嗯，汤姆，你刚才用你那场奥格斯堡围城战以一种高度戏剧化的方式结束了上一段。
Well, Tom, you took us out on a note of high melodrama there with your your siege of Augsburg.
所以我会用一些低俗喜剧来接回来。
So I shall come back with some low comedy.
当然是詹金斯的耳朵战争。
It is, of course, the war of Jenkins' ear.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
这是一场以每个人著名的耳朵命名的战争。
Everybody's famous ear based war.
还不够多，是吧？
There aren't enough, are there?
不够。
No.
确实不够。
There aren't.
这场战争从1739年持续到1748年，不过我认为大部分战斗早在那之前就结束了。
So this is a war that went from 1739 to 1748, although I think most of the fighting ended a little bit earlier.
如果人们对此有所了解的话，我的意思是，大多数人对十八世纪的战争几乎一无所知，对吧？
And if people know anything about it, I mean, most people know practically nothing about eighteenth century wars, do they?
但如果人们知道一点的话，他们会知道有一位名叫罗伯特·詹金斯的威尔士商人，他的船在加勒比海被西班牙人劫持。
But if people know anything about it, they'll know that there was a fellow called Robert Jenkins, who was a Welsh merchant, whose ship was captured by the Spanish in the Caribbean.
詹金斯当时在做点生意。
And Jenkins was sort of trading.
他们怀疑他走私和非法交易，于是割下了他的耳朵。
They suspect him of smuggling and trading illegally, so they cut his ear off.
这件事实际上发生在1731年，也就是战争爆发前八年。
So this happened actually in 1731, which is eight years before the war happened.
于是詹金斯回到家乡，据说他把耳朵带到下议院公开展示。
So Jenkins comes back home, and the story goes that he exhibited his ear to the House of Commons.
所以他有
So he had
一个装在罐子里随身携带的腌菜。
a pickle that he carried around in a jar.
据说那东西肯定很可怕。
He supposedly I'm sure it was horrid.
但实际上，这个故事完全是假的。
Well, it turns out this story is totally untrue, actually.
他根本什么都没做，根本没那回事。
He didn't he did nothing at the sort.
当时有一些漫画描绘他把耳朵展示给罗伯特·沃波尔爵士看，沃波尔是首相，而沃波尔却转过头去。
There is a there are cartoons then at the time showing him showing his ear to sir Robert Warpole, who was prime minister, and and Warpole looking away.
他不想看它。
He he doesn't want look at it.
他想盯着一些女孩看。
He wants to eye up some girls instead.
漫画里描绘的就是这种情况。
This is what's happening in the in the cartoons.
这是因为反对沃波尔的人希望与西班牙开战。
And this was because the sort of opposition to Walpole wanted war with Spain.
他们认为西班牙不让英国人与他们的殖民地进行贸易。
They wanted the Spanish were not letting the British trade with their colonies.
他们不让我们船只进入销售商品，尤其是在北美沿海地区，当时英国刚刚在佐治亚建立殖民地，紧邻西班牙在佛罗里达的殖民地，双方关系十分紧张。
They weren't letting our ships in to sell them goods, particularly in a sort of there was a lot of tension along the coast of North America where the British had just started up a colony in Georgia, which was next to the Spanish colony in Florida.
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英国人想进入佛罗里达。
British The wanted to get into Florida.
西班牙人不答应。
The Spanish weren't having it.
所以人们希望沃波尔对西班牙开战，他们用詹金斯的耳朵作为例子，说明他们所认为的西班牙掠夺行为。
So people wanted Warpaul to go to war, and and and they used Jenkins' ear as an example of the what they saw as these sort of Spanish depredations.
他们说，这家伙的耳朵被割掉了。
They said, you know, this fella's had his ear cut off.
你却什么都没做。
You're not doing anything about it.
你有问题吗，汤姆？
Do you have a question, Tom?
我有。
I do.
我在想。
I was wondering.
这是否就是沃波尔说‘别惊醒睡着的狗’的时候？
Is this is this is this when Walpole says that sleeping dogs lie?
我不知道。
I don't know.
这不错，哦，也许确实是这样。
That's a good Oh, maybe it Maybe it is.
我希望是这样。
I hope it is.
嗯，你会发现，从詹金斯耳朵战争中我们得到了一些有趣的东西。
Well, there are you'll find out there are some interesting things we've got from the war of Jengen's ear.
所以，我们最终在1739年宣战了。
So finally, we go to war in 1739.
沃波尔已经接近他任期的尾声，他说：好吧。
Warpaul's kind of at the end of his time, and he says, fine.
他一直试图避免卷入战争，但这次他说：好吧。
He's always tried to stay out of wars, but he says, fine.
去打你的仗吧。
Have your war.
我们和西班牙人打这场仗。
We fight this war with the Spanish.
实际上，詹金斯耳朵战争有点可悲，因为最终它变成了平局。
And basically, actually, the the war Genghis' ear is a bit pathetic because it ends up it's a bit of a draw.
什么都没发生。
Nothing happens.
它被并入了奥地利王位继承战争，我得承认我对这场战争几乎一无所知。
It gets subsumed into the war of the Austrian succession, which I have to confess I know virtually nothing about.
然而，詹金斯耳朵战争确实给我们带来了一些东西。
However, the war of of Jen Hezbollah does give us a couple of things.
因此，英国的一个重大亮点是我们占领了巴拿马的一个叫波托贝洛的地方。
So one of the great sort of high points for the British is we capture a place called Portobello in Panama.
我们从那里得到了两样东西。
And we get two things from that.
一是波特贝罗路，哦，对。
One is Portobello Road Oh, yeah.
它来自诺丁山。
Which comes from Notting Hill.
爱丁堡也有一个叫波特贝罗的地区。
There's an area of Edinburgh called Portobello as well.
我们还得到了《皇家不列颠尼亚》。
And we get Royal Britannia.
《皇家不列颠尼亚》是在占领波特贝罗之后创作的，以庆祝我们在加勒比海的重大胜利。
So Royal Britannia was written after the capture of Portobello to sort of celebrate our great victories in in The Caribbean.
所以最后一次
So the last time
关于这些问题，我们都可以挥舞耳朵。
of the problems, we could all wave ears.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯，我会这么做。
Well, I do that.
我的意思是，没人会对此抱怨。
I mean, no one would complain about that.
这会让全国团结起来。
That would unite the country.
与其现在人们举着欧盟旗帜，每个人都应该拿……
Instead of people going with sort of EU flags as they do now, everybody should take Yeah.
巨大的……不过，这肯定会显得反西班牙。
Giant They would surely be seen as anti Spanish, though.
现在这不会被视为反西班牙情绪吗？
Wouldn't it be seen as Hispanophobic now?
我肯定……
I'm sure the
西班牙人不会介意的。
Spanish wouldn't mind.
是的。
Yeah.
他们可能会去
They'd probably go
挥舞巨大的耳朵在空中。
for to wave large ears in the air.
我的意思是，不会。
I mean, no.
我肯定他们不会反对。
I'm sure they they wouldn't object.
对了，我的第四个例子也涉及跨越遥远距离的贸易战。
Right, well, my fourth one also involves trading wars over vast distances.
那是荷兰与葡萄牙之间的战争，从1602年持续到1663年。
And it's the Dutch Portuguese war, which went from 1602 to 1663.
我选择这个的原因是我认为这实际上是第一次世界大战。
And the reason I've chosen this is because I think that actually this is the First World War.
哇，这个说法可真够大的。
Wow, that's a big claim.
我觉得它被称为第一次世界大战的原因是，你肯定想到了蒙古征服吧？
And the reason it's the First World War I I suppose you've got the Mongol conquest, haven't you?
那场征服从日本一直延伸到匈牙利等地。
That's ranging from Japan up to wherever, Hungary.
是的，但不是同时发生的，
Yeah, but not all at the same time,
当然。
surely.
而且那场征服只发生在同一个大陆上。
Yeah, and it's all on one continent.
而荷兰与葡萄牙的战争则真正具有全球性。
Whereas the thing about the Dutch Portuguese war is that it is properly global.
在15世纪末到16世纪期间，葡萄牙建立了庞大的帝国，包括巴西、好望角、安哥拉、印度的果阿、澳门等地，控制着太平洋的香料贸易。
So Portugal, the course of the late fifteenth, sixteenth century, has carved out this empire, which would include Brazil, Cave Of Good Hope, Angola, Goa in India, Macau and so on, various places controlling the spice trade in The Pacific.
而荷兰人则是新兴的贸易力量。
And you've got the Dutch as the coming traders.
就像英国对印度的征服一样，这场战争基本上是由公司主导，而非荷兰政府本身。
As with the British conquest of India, it's basically companies who are running this war rather than The Netherlands itself.
因此，是荷兰东印度公司和西印度公司推动了这一切。
So it's the Dutch East and West and the companies who are pushing it.
你看到的战争横跨南美洲、非洲、印度和太平洋。
And you get wars that span South America, Africa, India, The Pacific.
荷兰人未能夺取巴西，也没能拿下安哥拉，但他们以重大后果占领了好望角。
And the Dutch don't manage to take Brazil, they don't manage to take Angola, but they do, with momentous consequences, seize the cave of good hope.
从这一点上，将衍生出许多后果。
Essentially lots are going to come from that.
尽管葡萄牙人仍保有果阿和澳门，但荷兰人基本上将他们排挤出去，夺取了特定香料贸易的控制权。
And although the Portuguese keep hold of Goa and Macao, the Dutch basically elbow them out of the way to seize control of the specific spice trade.
所以那就是印度尼西亚，荷属东印度。
So that's Indonesia, the Dutch East Indies.
是的，所以是印度尼西亚、雅加达、巴达维亚等等。
Yeah, so Indonesia, Jakarta, Batavia and so on.
这是一场关于香料的战争，但我认为这才是真正意义上的第一次世界大战。
And it's a war over spice, but it is, I think, properly the First World War.
这就是我选择它的原因。
So that's why I've chosen it.
那苏里南是怎么来的呢？
And is that where Suriname comes from?
因为苏里南是荷兰的殖民地，对吧，在南美洲？
Because Suriname was a Dutch colony, am I right, in South America?
是的，荷兰人还在高卢建造了堡垒，这为斯里兰卡的测试赛提供了背景。
Yes, and also the Dutch built the fort at Gaul, which provides the backdrop for the Test match in Sri Lanka.
所以这是选择它的另一个原因。
So that's another reason for choosing it.
这是一场不错的战争，因为你们很难想象荷兰和葡萄牙会彼此开战，就像 perennial 世界杯四分之一决赛的常客一样？
So that's a nice war, because those are two people who you don't imagine going to war with each other, Holland and Portugal, a sort of perennial World Cup quarter finalists?
嗯，当时葡萄牙是由西班牙国王统治的。
Well, that Portugal at this time is ruled by the Spanish king.
所以显然，
So obviously, there's a bit
有些矛盾
of beef
在西班牙和荷兰之间，因此这要追溯回去。
between the Spanish and the Dutch, so that is going back.
但实际上，葡萄牙人觉得他们没有得到西班牙的充分支持，这是葡萄牙决定再次独立的重要因素。
But actually, the Portuguese feel that they haven't been properly backed by Spanish, so that's a massive contributory factor in the Portuguese deciding to go independent again.
明白了。
Right.
很有趣。
Interesting.
所以葡萄牙输掉了这场战争。
So the Portuguese lost this war.
这是荷兰的胜利。
This was a Dutch win.
是的，基本上是。
Yeah, basically.
但你知道真正的赢家是谁吗？
But you know who the real winners are?
英国人？
The British English?
基本上，葡萄牙人和荷兰人都已筋疲力尽，这让英国人轻易地趁虚而入。
Basically, the Portuguese and the Dutch are less so exhausted that it's then easy pickings for the English to move in.
因此，英国人得以控制了荷兰的殖民地，如爪哇和斯里兰卡一段时间，但没过多久，英国人就开始强势介入。
So that's how the English get hold of the Dutch rule, Gaul and Sri Lanka for a while, then it's not long before the British are muscling in.
所以，和往常一样，我们是坏人。
So as per normal, we are the bad guys.
背信弃义的阿尔比恩。
Perfidious Albion.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Jolly good.
我还剩两个，对吧？
I've got two left, haven't I?
那我选我剩下的两个中更奇怪的那个吧。
So I shall go with probably the more bizarre of my two remaining choices.
这是三国同盟战争，也就是说，这根本没透露任何信息，对吧？
This is the war of the Triple Alliance, which is also I mean, that doesn't give anything away, does it?
它可能发生在任何地方。
It could be anywhere.
但它也被称为巴拉圭战争。
But it's also known as the Paraguayan war.
所以这实际上是一场可怕的战争。
So so this is actually a terrible war.
这是一场难以置信血腥的战争，起因非常晦涩不明。
This is an unbelievably bloody war, which begins for very sort of obscure reasons.
巴拉圭通常是个非常奇怪的地方，位于南美洲中部，完全内陆。
So Paraguay is generally a very strange place, completely landlocked in the middle of South America.
它基本上是西班牙的一个行政区域，在西班牙失去南美洲后独立出来。
It was basically a sort of a Spanish administrative division that broke away when the Spanish lost South America.
它曾由一位名叫多克托尔的人统治。
And it was run for a while by a man called Doctor.
弗朗西亚，他是卢梭的信徒。
Francia, who was a disciple of Russo.
他试图治理巴拉圭。
And he tried to run Paraguay.
他试图将其打造成一个理想化的卢梭式社会。
He tried to make it an idealized Russo style society.
因此，它完全是孤立主义的。
So it was completely isolationist.
他拥有绝对的控制权。
He had complete control.
他非常反教权。
He was very anti clerical.
他非常重视卖淫，将其视为巴拉圭的关键产业之一
He's very keen on prostitution as one of the sort of key industries
巴拉圭。
of Paraguay.
所以，这听起来就像一部魔幻现实主义小说。
So again, it sounds like a kind of magical realist novel.
确实如此。
It does.
正是如此。
Exactly.
所以巴拉圭是个古怪的内向型国家。
So Paraguay is this weird introverted place.
而且，基本上，巴拉圭还挑起了战争，如果你要对抗阿根廷和巴西，这看起来简直是愚蠢的行为。
And and, basically, Paraguay also kind of starts the war, which you would think is a foolish thing to do if you're gonna take on Argentina and Brazil.
所以这里有一种阴谋论。
So there is a conspiracy theory.
有趣的是，回到你刚才提到的那场战争，有一种阴谋论认为，实际上是英国策划了这场战争。
Actually, interestingly, going back to your last war, there's a conspiracy theory that actually the British planned this war.
这么糟糕吗？我们真的这么坏？
That's So bad, are we?
但事实证明，这完全是假的。
Turns But out to be totally untrue.
这种说法在南美洲根深蒂固，但学者们认为它完全不真实。
It's it's very deeply rooted in South America, but academics think it's totally untrue.
英国出于自己扭曲的原因，希望巴拉圭人失败，但我们并没有这么做。
The British, for their own perverse reasons, wanted the Paraguayans defeated, which we didn't.
所以巴拉圭决定同时与阿根廷和巴西开战，他们还以为自己能应付得来。
So any Paraguay decide they're gonna fight Argentina and Brazil simultaneously, and they can they reckon they can handle it.
结果发现他们根本应付不了。
And it turns out that they can't.
这场战争持续了六年。
So the war lasts for six years.
战争主要发生在19世纪60年代，与美国内战同期，极其惨烈。
It basically goes on in the eighteen sixties, the same time as the American civil war, and it is colossally bloody.
总共有大约五十万人死亡。
So about half a million people die in total.
巴拉圭人彻底战败，你猜怎么着。
The Paraguayans are totally defeated, and they lost so so get this.
历史学家对巴拉圭人口死亡比例的估计在百分之六十到百分之九十之间。
Historical estimates about the number of people who died from Paraguay's population range between about sixty percent and ninety percent.
天哪。
Goodness.
所以基本上，几乎所有人，或者说是绝大部分人都被杀死了。
So basically, everybody or or or conglossal proportion of people are killed.
战争结束时，巴拉圭的女性人数大约是男性的四到五倍。
At the end, there are about four or five times as many women in Paraguay as there are men.
历史学家和社会学家认为，这从根本上影响了巴拉圭此后的发展。
And historians and sociologists think that this has sort of completely affected Paraguay's development ever since.
巴拉圭被其邻国彻底蹂躏。
And Paraguay is utterly brutalized by its neighbors.
它被占领了。
It's occupied.
基本上，绝大多数男性都被杀死了。
Basically, most the vast majority of the men are killed.
自那以后，巴拉圭一直保持着一种非常奇特、内向且高度孤立的政权。
And ever since Paraguay has remained this very sort of strange, introverted, quite isolationist regime.
因此，二战结束时，纳粹战犯选择巴拉圭作为藏身之地，因为你可以确信没人会来追捕你。
So that's why it was the sort of destination of choice for Nazi war criminals at the end of World War II because you could be sure that no one's gonna come after you in Paraguay.
我认识的唯一去过巴拉圭的人是艾伦·威克。
The only person I know who's been to Paraguay is Alan Wicker.
威克的世界中有一个精彩的情节，就是他去了巴拉圭。
And Wicker's was a brilliant addition of Wicker's world where he goes to Paraguay.
但不管怎样，巴拉圭战争，没人知道这件事。
But anyway, yeah, the Paraguayan War, nobody knows about it.
这场战争极其可怕。
And it was colossally it horrible.
听起来真可怕。
That sounds horrible.
好吧。
Okay.
好吧，我现在要讲一场没人死亡的战争，或者至少
Well, I'm going to give you a war now where nobody dies, or at
至少没有人类死亡。
least no humans die.
这真是一场愉快的战争。
That's a cheery war.
这是1932年的鸸鹋战争。
It's the Emu War of nineteen thirty two.
你听说过吗
Are you familiar
关于鸸鹋？
with the Emu?
是罗德·霍尔吗？
Is it Rod Hall?
不是罗德·霍尔。
It's not Rod Hall.
不，这在某种程度上比罗德·霍尔还要有趣得多。
No, it's in a way even a lot funnier than Rod Hall.
所以这讲的是相当罗马的。
So this is about rather Roman.
罗马士兵归来后会获得一块土地。
Roman soldiers would come back and be given plots of land.
类似地，第一次世界大战后，返回澳大利亚的澳大利亚士兵被分配了西澳大利亚州的可耕地，并在那里建立了农场。
Rather similarly, after the First World War, Australian troops coming back to Australia were given plots of land in arable territory in Western Australia, and they set up their farms there.
然后，他们的土地遭到了两万只鸸鹋组成的部队入侵。
And then their lands get invaded by a task force of 20,000 emus.
哇，一个
Wow, a
部队。
task force.
鸸鹋摧毁了土地。
The emus devastate the land.
于是，这些士兵纷纷说：我们需要除掉它们。
So all these soldiers start saying, Well, we need to take them out.
当然，他们都非常擅长使用机枪等武器，全副武装。
Of course, they're all very good with machine guns and things, armed to the teeth.
澳大利亚皇家炮兵看到了一个练习的机会，于是他们把鸸鹋当作靶子进行实弹训练。
The Royal Australia Artillery see an opportunity to have a bit of practice, so they can use the emus as target practice.
于是他们前去对付鸸鹋，当时还有许多充满民族主义色彩的影像资料流传下来，看起来就像是小伙子们出征一样。
And so they go in to take on the emus, And there was all kinds of jingoistic footage, which you can see, and it's kind of like, boys going in.
看看这些鸸鹋跑得有多快，时速可达40英里。
Look at these emus running at 40 miles per hour.
这些是极其顽强的敌人。
These are tough enemy.
结果发现，它们确实极其顽强，因为它们一边奔跑，一边又从后方包抄，最终指挥官不得不将它们比作祖鲁人。
And it turns out actually they are incredibly tough enemy because they just run and then they come up in the rear and And take out all the the commander ends up comparing them to Zulus.
他说，这些鸸鹋总是悄无声息地消失不见。
He says that they just melt away.
当你以为已经把它们逼得节节败退时，它们却突然从侧面发动袭击。
And then when you think that you've got them on the run, suddenly they attack you from the side.
他说，面对机枪火力，它们的防护力堪比坦克。
And he says when facing machine guns, they have the invulnerability of tanks.
这整个事件简直就是对殖民战争的一种讽刺，展现了装备精良的欧洲军队屡次难以强行推行意志的窘境，而鸸鹋们基本上成功逃脱了惩罚。
And the whole thing is a parody of colonial wars, really, of the mismatch between heavily armed European troops and the way in which repeatedly they find it difficult to enforce their will, and the Emus basically get away with it.
鸸鹋赢了。
The win.
鸸鹋赢了。
Emus win.
基本上，这是自中生代以来恐龙赢得的唯一一场战争。
Basically, it's pretty much the only war that dinosaurs have won since the Mesozoic.
等等，这些澳大利亚人中，很多人是不是第一次世界大战的退伍军人？
So hold on, a lot of these Australians, they must have are they veterans of the First World War?
是的。
Yeah.
天啊。
God.
他们能打败德国人，却打不赢鸸鹋。
So they they could beat the Germans, but they couldn't beat the Emus.
嗯，他们大概习惯了在知道自己敌人位置的战壕里作战，而鸸鹋呢，它们能以每小时40英里的速度到处奔跑。
Well, they they I guess they're they're kind of used to to being in trenches where you know where the enemy are, whereas the Emus, know, they can roll at 40 miles an hour.
所以这有点像
So it is a kind of
到处乱窜。
over the place.
是的。
Yes.
这有点像越南战争的隐喻，不是吗？
It is a kind of metaphor for Vietnam or something, isn't it?
确实是。
It is.
当然，放眼未来，你有新加坡，还有大量新加坡，有法国在印度支那的行动，还有越南。
Of course, looking ahead, you've got Singapore, lots of Singapore, you've got the French and Indochina, you've got Vietnam.
还有伊拉克。
There's Iraq.
阿富汗？
Afghanistan?
作为对西方战争方式及其不足的隐喻，这简直再完美不过了。
As metaphor for the Western way of war and its inadequacy, it's kind of perfect.
如果我是一位魔幻现实主义小说家，
And if I were a magical realist novelist,
我为此付出了代价。
I pay for this.
难道这不是一位澳大利亚布克奖得主的作品吗？
Surely, there's an Australian Booker Prize winner in this, isn't there?
我就觉得是，没错。
I thought so, yes.
好吧。
All right.
好吧，我最后提到的这场战争就没那么轻松了。
Well, my final war is a bit less jolly.
这是一场非常血腥的战争，可能是我们打过的最血腥的一场。
It's a very bloody war, probably the bloodiest one we've we've done.
这是俄国内战。
It's the Russian civil war.
这是一场规模巨大的战争，而我们通常对此一无所知。
So this is a colossal war that often we know nothing about.
我们往往以为俄国革命一发生，苏联就随之而来，仿佛这一切都是必然的。
We sort of assume the Russian revolution happened and then you have the Soviet Union and and it's sort of inevitable.
但事实上，这并非必然，尤其是因为盟国曾希望在布尔什维克诞生之初就将其扼杀。
But, course, it wasn't inevitable, not least because the allies hoped to strangle Bolshevism at birth.
因此，我们在阿尔汉格尔斯克、摩尔曼斯克等地陆续派遣了少量军队。
So we were landing small amounts of troops at sort of ark Archangel and Mermansk and whatnot.
但这场战争看起来也像一款电子游戏，或者像电脑战略游戏，又或者像你玩《风险》游戏时的情景。
But also because it it looks like a war from a video game, from a sort of computer strategy game or from you know, if you're playing Risk or something.
于是，庞大的军队在广袤的领土上四处游荡。
So you have these colossal armies kind of wandering across these massive expanses of territory.
布尔什维克被包围了。
The Bolsheviks are surrounded.
各方都有白俄军队。
There are white Russian armies on all sides.
而且，布尔什维克似乎即将失败，因为白军控制着西伯利亚等广大地区。
And often, it looks as though the Bolsheviks are are gonna lose because the the whites control colossal areas of of Siberia and stuff.
这里有非常奇特的参战方。
There are there are very strange combatants.
波罗的海国家参与其中。
So the Baltic States are involved.
波兰、乌克兰、协约国都参与了，当然德国也卷入其中，因为战争结束时德国仍处于战局之中。
Poland are involved, Ukraine, the allies are involved, but also, of course, the Germans are involved because at the end of the war, the Germans are still in the game.
还有北高加索山地共和国的人们，这些如今已不复存在的国家也都卷入了战争。
There are people at the Mountainous Republic Of The Northern Caucasus, so all these countries that don't exist anymore that are involved too.
我最喜爱的参战方是我觉得最引人入胜的那些。
And my favorite combatants are the ones that I find most intriguing.
有一群人，大约五万人，被称为捷克军团。
A group of people, there are about 50,000 of them called the Czech Legion.
你可能会好奇，为什么捷克军团会在俄罗斯。
So you might wonder why the Czech Legion are in Russia.
他们是战俘。
They're prisoners of war.
他们是被关押在俄罗斯营地的奥匈帝国战俘。
They're Austro Hungarian prisoners of war that have been held in camps in Russia.
当沙皇政权垮台时，他们决定重新参战。
And basically, when czarism fails, they decide that they are gonna go they want to rejoin the war.
他们想回到后来成为捷克斯洛伐克的地方。
They wanna get back to what becomes Czechoslovakia.
但由于战争，他们无法向西走，因为德国人和其他战争势力。
But they can't go west because of the war the Germans and the wars.
他们决定向东走。
They decide they're gonna go east.
他们会乘火车一路到达太平洋，然后穿过美国，横跨大西洋，再从那边返回。
They'll go all the way to the Pacific by train, then they'll go through The US across the Atlantic, and they'll get back that way.
这简直就像一次彻底搞砸的间隔年。
Like, it's sort of gap year gone horribly wrong.
但一路上，他们分心了，被卷入了战争。
But, basically, on the way, they get distracted and they get drawn into the war.
他们夺取了整个西伯利亚大铁路的控制权，数月间，一列列捷克人穿越俄罗斯，占领城镇，介入战争。
They seize control of the entire Trans Siberian Railway, and there were these sort of trains of Czechs for months crossing Russia, capturing towns, intervening in the war.
有一度，你知道，他们成了对布尔什维克最大的威胁。
And at one point, you know, they're the biggest threat to the Bolshevik That
这在《日瓦戈医生》里没出现过，是吧？
doesn't appear in doctor Zhivarguet, does it?
没有。
No.
确实没出现过。
It doesn't,
但本该如此。
but it should.
我的意思是，这是一个非常精彩的故事。
I mean, it's such a great story.
他们在一本名为《爱的人民史》的书中略有出现，作者是詹姆斯·米克，这是一部小说。
They appear a bit in a book a book called People's History of Love by James by James Meek, a novel.
而捷克人在这本书中出现了。
And the Czechs are in that.
但在西方关于苏联共产主义的历史中，捷克人几乎从未被提及。
But the Czechs are really never discussed in sort of Western sort of histories of communism in the Soviet Union.
因为它们实在是太……
Because they're such a sort
他们确实回去了。
of they did get back.
他们一路走到了终点。
They went all the way.
他们他们他们
They they they
他们在战争中折腾了一阵子，然后有点失去兴趣，转而去往太平洋，经过美国，最终还是回来了。
messed around in the war for a bit, and then they kinda lost interest and and went off to the Pacific and went through America, and they did get back.
我的意思是，这是一个了不起的故事。
I mean, it's an amazing story.
他们乘坐装甲列车，行进了数千英里。
They traveled thousands of miles in these armored trains.
当然，布尔什维克赢了。
And, of course, the the Bolsheviks won.
布尔什维克赢得战争，是因为他们控制了工业中心和莫斯科，而且他们也是唯一真正向俄罗斯农民传递积极信息的人。
The Bolsheviks won the war because they were the only they controlled the industrial centers, and they controlled Moscow, but also because they were the only people that were really selling the Russian peasantry a positive message.
所以，白军，我的意思是，他们简直就是骷髅和交叉骨头那样的反派角色。
So the sort of the whites, I mean, they're very much kind of skull and crossbones kind of characters.
他们极端反犹，只想恢复沙皇俄国的封建和反动旧世界。
They're very anti Semitic, and they just have this pure sort of negative they wanna bring back feudalism and reactionary kind of sort of reactionary world of czarist Russia.
而且，毫不奇怪，普通俄罗斯人并不喜欢这样。
And and not surprisingly, the rush the ordinary Russians don't really fancy that.
但你知道，事情本可能朝任何方向发展。
But, you know, it could have gone it could have gone either way.
这简直是一场巨大而混乱的灾难，感觉就像一场失控的棋盘游戏，数百万人因此丧生。
And it's just such a massive confused, it feels like a board game gone wrong in which millions of people die.
我的意思是，数以千万计的人丧生。
I mean, millions upon millions of people die.
正如你开头所说，这是需要牢记的关键点：我们所讨论的一切，除了伊穆战争，甚至一些伊穆人死去，
And as you said at the beginning, that is the key thing to bear in mind, is that everything we've discussed, apart from the Imu war or even some Imus die,
都很可怕。
is terrible.
不过，汤姆，我想我们最后再讨论一下这个有趣的问题：有些历史学家认为战争是好事。
Although the interesting thing though, Tom, I thought we'd discuss this right at the end, is there are some historians who argue that wars are good things.
比如玛格丽特·麦克米伦在她的里思讲座和她的战争著作中提到，不是人，而是战争常常是进步的强大推动力，带来了许多发明，而且人类社会往往因战争而实现飞跃式发展。
Say, for example, Margaret McMillan in her Reith lectures in her book about war, she sort of says people not war, but war is often a great force for progress, lots of inventions, but also society, human society often progresses by leaps and bounds that are driven by wars.
但话说回来，多米尼克，战争到底有什么用？
But then again, Dominic, war, what is it good for?
哦，没错。
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
讨论一下。
Discuss.
我们以后可以做个播客，探讨战争是否有益
We'll a have podcast on whether war is good
在某个稍后的时间。
for anything some later time.
我认为，如果你坐在研讨室里，说战争有益可能很容易。
I think it's probably easy to say it's good for something if you're in your seminar room.
但如果你身处战壕，或许感觉就不太一样了，或者如果
If you're in a trench, maybe it feels a bit Or if
你是个征服者，伟大的征服者。
you're a conqueror, mighty conqueror.
嗯。
Yeah.
从敌人的头骨里喝酒。
Drinking from your adversary's skull.
好吧，这是个不错的结束方式。
Well, that's a charming note on which to end.
我们下周一回来，届时将讨论九十年代，也就是二十世纪九十年代。
We will be back on Monday when we will be discussing the nineties, and that's the nineteen nineties.
到时候见。
We will see you then.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听《历史其余部分》。
Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.
我们还有另一档播客，也非常推荐你试试。
We've got another podcast that we'd love you to try as well.
它同样痴迷于历史，只不过聚焦的是六年历史，尽管这六年相当重要。
It's obsessed with history too, but just six years of history, albeit a pretty important six years.
它叫《我们有办法让你开口》，内容全部关于第二次世界大战。
It's called We Have Ways of Making You Talk, and it's all about the Second World War.
我的兄弟詹姆斯·荷兰与喜剧演员兼狂热历史爱好者阿尔·默里共同主持这档节目。
My brother, James Holland, presents the show with comedian and avid historian Al Murray.
这里先给你听一段试听。
Here's a taster.
《我们有办法让你开口》，在你收听播客的任何平台都能找到。
We Have Ways of Making You Talk wherever you get your podcasts.
嘿，伙计。
Hey, buddy.
小心点。
Look out.
嘿，伙计。
Hey, buddy.
小心。
Look out.
这当然是美式英语中的‘警报、警报’。
Which is, of course, American English for actung actung.
吉姆，你今天早上怎么样？
How are you this morning, Jim?
嗯。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我还不错。
I'm not too bad.
你呢？
How about you?
医生。
Doc.
好吧。
Alright.
嗯。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
怎么
How
你周末是怎么打发时间的？
how did you pass your time over the weekend?
我周末是怎么打发时间的？
How did I pass my time over the weekend?
做了一个巴斯通的立体模型。
Building a diorama of Bastogne.
哦，巴斯托涅。
Oh, Bastogne.
我得说，这看起来太棒了，我真的得这么说。
I've gotta say that that that is looking zettol, I have to say.
嗯，是的。
Well, it's yeah.
哦，你一直在用多邻国学德语，对吧？
Oh, and you've been on Duolingo learning German, haven't you?
我有吗？
Have I?
你怎么看出来的？
How can you tell?
我
I
我知道怎么说‘鸭子在吃苍蝇’，这很棒。
do know how to say the ducks are eating the flies, which is great.
没了。
Gone.
显然有用。
Obviously, useful.
没了。
Gone.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们需要努力
We need to work
改善口音。
on the accent.
嗯。
Yeah.
那是Enten。
That's Enten.
给你。
There you go.
戈林确实很糟糕，不是吗？
Goring really was rubbish, wasn't he?
而且令人惊讶的是，如果他当时在苏联活动，你知道，他根本不可能活到1945年。
And isn't it amazing that had had he been operating for you know, had he been operating in the Soviet Union, you know, he just would not have survived till 1945.
不。
No.
绝无可能。
Not a chance.
不。
No.
而且我觉得，希拉德似乎没有斯大林那样的冷酷无情。
And it's odd that Hillard doesn't quite have the same ruthlessness as Stalin, I don't think.
嗯，是的，但这也更多是希特勒那种优柔寡断的倾向吧？
Well, yeah, but that's Hitler's sort of tendency towards indecision, isn't it, as much as anything else?
他更希望他们彼此争斗，这样就不用他亲自做决定了。
He'd rather they're all fighting each other, and that saves him having to make a decision.
斯大林的一切都是围绕着将权力集中于自身，利用他人达成自己的目的，直到他认为他们不再有用为止。
Well, Stalin is all about siloing the power in himself and using people to do his bidding until he decides they're no used to him anymore.
而当他们不再有用时，往往就会被清洗。
And when they're no used to anymore, they tend to end up purged.
实际上，两人的风格差异非常大。
There's such a difference in style, in actual fact.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，在战争结束时，人们会说，哦，斯大林的做法才是对的。
And there, you know, there is that the end of the war saying, oh, Stalin had it right.
你知道的。
You know?
这是我们以前就讨论过的话题。
It's a thing we've talked about before.
嗯。
Yeah.
斯大林是对的。
Stalin had it right.
我真希望我能像他那样无情。
I wish I'd been as ruthless as him.
但没错，你说得完全对。
But, yeah, you're absolutely right.
我在他的时代能撑五分钟就不错了。
Going would have lasted five minutes in the He's
太烂了。
so shit.
谢谢收听，其余都是历史。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
如需获取加更剧集、提前收听、无广告收听以及加入我们的聊天社区，请在 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
那就是restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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